7 crashes in 7 days
October 3, 2021 10:07 AM Subscribe
Seawind Saga: Pilot who crashed in Lake Michigan had 7 crashes in 7 days. A pilot buys a used homebuilt Seawind and does not succeed in getting it home (luckily, without injury).
It's really astonishing that this guy doesn't realize that he's coming across as a dangerous idiot in these interviews.
posted by schmod at 10:33 AM on October 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by schmod at 10:33 AM on October 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
How did it take 7 crashes before he became so traumatized he lost interest in flying the plane again? I guess the answer might be $110k + extreme sunk cost fallacy, but still, that's a really wild mental state to be in.
posted by advil at 10:49 AM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by advil at 10:49 AM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
So many bad decisions.
posted by jackmakrl at 10:51 AM on October 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by jackmakrl at 10:51 AM on October 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
Archive.org link for the article too, since it's geoblocked.
posted by offog at 10:56 AM on October 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by offog at 10:56 AM on October 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
Collier wanted to capture the experience while it was fresh in his mind so he wrote a first-person account, in case it had any motion picture potential.
"Rich man buys poorly built toy" doesn't seem like quite the enthralling story he might think it does.
posted by hwyengr at 10:58 AM on October 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
"Rich man buys poorly built toy" doesn't seem like quite the enthralling story he might think it does.
posted by hwyengr at 10:58 AM on October 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm reminded of an old 80's romance novel I read while bored at my grandma's in which the hero, a pilot, was nicknamed "Crash." Except in his case the nickname came from a car crash in his teen years. (I'm amused that the character's first name was Colin and this guy is Collier...)
This fellow, on the other hand, has earned it. Not that I know anything about piloting, but this sounds like the plane equivalent of buying some junker car to drive it across the country and then the inevitable happens? Except he kept going?
"Which, come to think of it, sounds like a movie title, though if Hollywood comes calling Collier said he prefers, “7 Days, 7 Crashes” and has his heart set on Tom Hanks in the lead role.
"Collier wanted to capture the experience while it was fresh in his mind so he wrote a first-person account, in case it had any motion picture potential."
OF COURSE HE DID.
Also concerning: "Back in Nebraska, Al Sibi said he was still thinking about what aircraft accident investigators call the "Swiss Cheese Model": Every airplane mishap puts a hole in the slice until the plane is more holes than cheese. "
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:00 AM on October 3, 2021
This fellow, on the other hand, has earned it. Not that I know anything about piloting, but this sounds like the plane equivalent of buying some junker car to drive it across the country and then the inevitable happens? Except he kept going?
"Which, come to think of it, sounds like a movie title, though if Hollywood comes calling Collier said he prefers, “7 Days, 7 Crashes” and has his heart set on Tom Hanks in the lead role.
"Collier wanted to capture the experience while it was fresh in his mind so he wrote a first-person account, in case it had any motion picture potential."
OF COURSE HE DID.
Also concerning: "Back in Nebraska, Al Sibi said he was still thinking about what aircraft accident investigators call the "Swiss Cheese Model": Every airplane mishap puts a hole in the slice until the plane is more holes than cheese. "
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:00 AM on October 3, 2021
I'm a little surprised that a wreck of a seawind costs 110,000. I was going t write "I would have bailed when I discovered "a chunk of wood" had been attached to the plane by a clearly incompetent builder/owner" but I have a garage "full" of cars where the equivalent has been done.
posted by maxwelton at 11:14 AM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by maxwelton at 11:14 AM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
There's a saying in aviation about how the accident chain usually starts with poor decision making by the pilot. This story has that in spades, but the real jaw-dropper for me was
posted by Nelson at 11:17 AM on October 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
Crashes #4 and #5: “My plan was to go north along the western slope of the Rockies to avoid the approaching front from Taos, New Mexico to Chicago and east was not the way to get over the mountains,”I just can't imagine choosing to fly any unpressurized plane up the western slope of the Rockies in anything other than perfect conditions. Much less a dinky kitbuilt that was showing plenty of signs of mechanical problems. You can just go east down south by Albuquerque and get over the continental divide that way and keep under 11,000' the whole way, no need to go to 14,000'. Oh and he's trying to race a rainstorm? And he's already had 3 crashes?
posted by Nelson at 11:17 AM on October 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
What I am wondering is if the guy had the beginnings of dementia, despite this assertion: "Rich man buys poorly built toy" I was more under the impression that he spent his last dime to buy this airplane; he did not have insurance, he had to borrow a credit card to buy gas, his cell phone was "turned off". I suspect he is now broke and is a victim of an idee fixe. There didn't seem to be any real examination of the aircraft before handing over money, and I don't want to be ageist, but, I don't think it is prudent to buy a kit plane from a 98 year old builder without having some third party cast eyes on it. The article is not that well written but the casual mention of reversed fuel gauges and the trim being completely out of whack makes it sound like the aircraft probably had serious problems beyond the idiot pilot.
Here is a Seawind quick build kit for sale Seawind and I feel confident in saying that you will need another 75-150K minimum to finish it.
Here is a flying one for sale.
This guy gives experimental aviation a bad name. Pretty much his working on it was most likely a violation of law as he wasn't the builder so would not have a repairman's certificate for the airplane. Also if the plane had killed somebody or destroyed property the builder or his estate could get sued.
posted by Pembquist at 11:54 AM on October 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
Here is a Seawind quick build kit for sale Seawind and I feel confident in saying that you will need another 75-150K minimum to finish it.
Here is a flying one for sale.
This guy gives experimental aviation a bad name. Pretty much his working on it was most likely a violation of law as he wasn't the builder so would not have a repairman's certificate for the airplane. Also if the plane had killed somebody or destroyed property the builder or his estate could get sued.
posted by Pembquist at 11:54 AM on October 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
The bottom of the lake is clearly the only safe place for it.
posted by lemonade at 12:05 PM on October 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by lemonade at 12:05 PM on October 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
After reading the Wikipedia article (linked to in the FPP) that describes the series of fiascos involved in the attempt to get this aircraft certified -- numerous crashes / fixes / redesigns, the death of a test pilot, and suggestions of financial and/or regulatory shenanigans on the part of the designer -- I would seriously question the judgement of anyone who wanted to buy a Seawind in the first place.
On the other hand, I was once young and foolish ehough to put down several hundred bucks as a deposit on a Bede BD-5, so I probably shouldn't talk.
posted by TwoToneRow at 12:38 PM on October 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
On the other hand, I was once young and foolish ehough to put down several hundred bucks as a deposit on a Bede BD-5, so I probably shouldn't talk.
posted by TwoToneRow at 12:38 PM on October 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't think it is prudent to buy a kit plane from a 98 year old builder without having some third party cast eyes on it.
He's only 88.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:02 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
He's only 88.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:02 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
> I suspect he is now broke and is a victim of an idee fixe. There didn't seem to be any real examination of the aircraft before handing over money, and I don't want to be ageist, but, I don't think it is prudent to buy a kit plane from a 98 year old builder without having some third party cast eyes on it. The article is not that well written but the casual mention of reversed fuel gauges and the trim being completely out of whack makes it sound like the aircraft probably had serious problems beyond the idiot pilot.
According to the article, the seller was 88, not 98. Which meant if he had bought the kit shortly after they went on the market, he had probably started working on it in his early sixties.
It appears the seller expected Collier to want to inspect the plane before flying it but by his account Collier just went and queued for a test flight instead. I half wonder whether the plane's sales listing said that it was airworthy but needed work and Collier was too enraptured by the opportunity to own a rare bird (and too naive about airplanes, generally) to pay enough attention to the "needed work" part. The interlude in Nebraska, where the airstrip operators offered to call him a flatbed truck to haul the plane home, indicates Collier was too wrapped up in the romance of flying his own plane (and/or was too broke to afford a few thousand extra dollars for haulage and his own airfare home) to heed any advice that wasn't, "you fly that plane, boy."
And really: If you can afford a plane but can't afford to repair it, you can't actually afford the plane.
posted by at by at 1:09 PM on October 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
According to the article, the seller was 88, not 98. Which meant if he had bought the kit shortly after they went on the market, he had probably started working on it in his early sixties.
It appears the seller expected Collier to want to inspect the plane before flying it but by his account Collier just went and queued for a test flight instead. I half wonder whether the plane's sales listing said that it was airworthy but needed work and Collier was too enraptured by the opportunity to own a rare bird (and too naive about airplanes, generally) to pay enough attention to the "needed work" part. The interlude in Nebraska, where the airstrip operators offered to call him a flatbed truck to haul the plane home, indicates Collier was too wrapped up in the romance of flying his own plane (and/or was too broke to afford a few thousand extra dollars for haulage and his own airfare home) to heed any advice that wasn't, "you fly that plane, boy."
And really: If you can afford a plane but can't afford to repair it, you can't actually afford the plane.
posted by at by at 1:09 PM on October 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
The Swiss cheese model definitely applies here, but the article didn’t really explain it properly. But the pilot’s cavalier attitude befuddles me (although his weak attempt to deflect blame to the seller doesn’t). An airplane is more akin to life support equipment in a hospital than it is to a car. In most cases, a catastrophic mechanical failure in a car will result in it pulling over to the side of the road and waiting for a tow truck; a similar mechanical failure in a plane can result in it plummeting to the ground with serious damage and potential loss of life. (This is one of many reasons why flying cars will never be common.). When I have an essential piece of medical equipment fail on me, I refuse to use it until it has been repaired and thoroughly inspected by a qualified biomedical engineer; one from the manufacturer if necessary. I can’t fathom why after the first hard landing (well, actually, before the first flight) a well-qualified mechanic didn’t go over the plane with a fine-toothed comb before it took to the air again. It seems likely that a lot of important systems (electrical and hydraulic in particular) were damaged during the series of crash landings, and eventually failed in flight at a particularly inconvenient location.
posted by TedW at 1:39 PM on October 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by TedW at 1:39 PM on October 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
According to the article, he landed gear up on his first, "test" flight. That pretty much would seal the deal for the seller I'd think, especially since he decided to take it up solo rather than wait for the seller to return. Pretty sure the "you break it, you buy it" rule would apply here.
posted by TwoToneRow at 1:52 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by TwoToneRow at 1:52 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I suppose there's no better time in one's life to fail up, than in a falling plane.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
“The airplane stalled and came down hard and to the left of the runway and into the weeds and bumpy sage grasses,” Collier said.
I’m not a pilot, but I’m pretty sure planes don’t just stall of their own accord.
posted by TedW at 2:02 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
I’m not a pilot, but I’m pretty sure planes don’t just stall of their own accord.
posted by TedW at 2:02 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah that sounds an awful lot like "I missed the runway."
posted by entropone at 2:06 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by entropone at 2:06 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
TedW, exactly.
That translates: I flared too high and with too much left rudder.
There is no indication in that statement of any mechanical or weather reason for either the stall or runway departure.
posted by meinvt at 2:35 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
That translates: I flared too high and with too much left rudder.
There is no indication in that statement of any mechanical or weather reason for either the stall or runway departure.
posted by meinvt at 2:35 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
This whole story is the aviation equivalent of a forum thread about a dude buying a “ran when parked” classic car and then trying to drive it thousands of miles home.
My favorite part is where they’re slapping the roof like “you landed on two inches of wood, this baby can fit so many crashes in it”
posted by compartment at 3:53 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
My favorite part is where they’re slapping the roof like “you landed on two inches of wood, this baby can fit so many crashes in it”
posted by compartment at 3:53 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
A guy I knew from my neighborhood was really successful in building and also real estate, which gave him the cash to play whatever game(s) he wanted to play, not that he went nuts behind it but when he bought he and his wife mountain bikes they were really nice Diamondback bikes, top rail components, et cet.
It looked like fun to get one of those bitty airplanes which are basically wings and a lawn mower motor, a parachute hooked to the plane so if he was going down "Hey, time to open that chute."
He had some fun with it. But I think common sense kicked in, looked at his life and noticed things were pretty good, and he let the thing go. I've always thought that a very good move.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:53 PM on October 3, 2021
It looked like fun to get one of those bitty airplanes which are basically wings and a lawn mower motor, a parachute hooked to the plane so if he was going down "Hey, time to open that chute."
He had some fun with it. But I think common sense kicked in, looked at his life and noticed things were pretty good, and he let the thing go. I've always thought that a very good move.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:53 PM on October 3, 2021
Everything you've ever heard about airliner safety, doesn't apply to general aviation.
posted by ryanrs at 5:14 PM on October 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 5:14 PM on October 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
It looked like fun to get one of those bitty airplanes which are basically wings and a lawn mower motor, a parachute hooked to the plane so if he was going down "Hey, time to open that chute."
He had some fun with it. But I think common sense kicked in, looked at his life and noticed things were pretty good, and he let the thing go. I've always thought that a very good move.
I had a friend in high school whose father died in an accident while flying an "ultralight." It did seem like a lot of fun right up until then.
posted by Orlop at 5:17 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
He had some fun with it. But I think common sense kicked in, looked at his life and noticed things were pretty good, and he let the thing go. I've always thought that a very good move.
I had a friend in high school whose father died in an accident while flying an "ultralight." It did seem like a lot of fun right up until then.
posted by Orlop at 5:17 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
And really: If you can afford a plane but can't afford to repair it, you can't actually afford the plane.
I can verify that this also applies to a used Jaguar XJ-S. My guess is it applies to a whole lot of things.
posted by Naberius at 6:19 PM on October 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
I can verify that this also applies to a used Jaguar XJ-S. My guess is it applies to a whole lot of things.
posted by Naberius at 6:19 PM on October 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Can't help wishing people had been less nice to this dude. In the end they didn't do him any favors.
posted by emjaybee at 6:40 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 6:40 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Disagree. If the previous 6 crashes didn't dissuade him, no mere human was gonna do it. I assume a few tried, though.
posted by ryanrs at 7:02 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 7:02 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Buying and owning an airplane isn't cheap, but unlike the Jaguar, it's predictable.
Admittedly, things are different for an experimental aircraft, but generally speaking, there are very very few "surprise" maintenance expenses with a small airplane. Nearly all of the maintenance that you need to do is legally-required, and occurs at fixed and predicable intervals.
That's not to say that this guy actually did the research (I kind of doubt he did), but owning a small airplane is the kind of expensive that you can budget for – unlike the kind of "this might randomly become a huge money-pit" expensive that you might see in a luxury car, boat, or even a big house.
posted by schmod at 7:28 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Admittedly, things are different for an experimental aircraft, but generally speaking, there are very very few "surprise" maintenance expenses with a small airplane. Nearly all of the maintenance that you need to do is legally-required, and occurs at fixed and predicable intervals.
That's not to say that this guy actually did the research (I kind of doubt he did), but owning a small airplane is the kind of expensive that you can budget for – unlike the kind of "this might randomly become a huge money-pit" expensive that you might see in a luxury car, boat, or even a big house.
posted by schmod at 7:28 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
generally speaking, there are very very few "surprise" maintenance expenses with a small airplane
OK, but what if you crash a lot?
posted by ryanrs at 10:19 PM on October 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
OK, but what if you crash a lot?
posted by ryanrs at 10:19 PM on October 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
Wow, record-eagle.com, still blocking me in 2021 because I'm in the EU and blah blah 'legal reasons' ?
posted by GallonOfAlan at 12:54 AM on October 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 12:54 AM on October 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
The Swiss cheese model definitely applies here, but the article didn’t really explain it properly.
It's not that it didn't explain it properly. What the article described isn't the swiss cheese model at all. "Every airplane mishap puts a hole in the slice until the plane is more holes than cheese." Eh? No. The swiss cheese isn't a metaphor for the structure of the aircraft. If you have an accident, you fix the damage properly so it's good as new, or you write off the aircraft.
The slices of swiss cheese are the multiple layers of a system, that contribute to its overall safety even though each is individually fallible. Accidents happen when all the holes in each slice of the cheese line up.
The layers here should have included:
It's not so much that all the holes in the cheese lined up, as that most of them were missing entirely and the rest had been eaten by mice. And yet somehow, the remaining crumbs still lined up well enough that this fuckwit is still alive.
I've lost friends when they did everything right and the holes still lined up. This guy can fuck all the way off.
posted by automatronic at 4:24 AM on October 4, 2021 [20 favorites]
It's not that it didn't explain it properly. What the article described isn't the swiss cheese model at all. "Every airplane mishap puts a hole in the slice until the plane is more holes than cheese." Eh? No. The swiss cheese isn't a metaphor for the structure of the aircraft. If you have an accident, you fix the damage properly so it's good as new, or you write off the aircraft.
The slices of swiss cheese are the multiple layers of a system, that contribute to its overall safety even though each is individually fallible. Accidents happen when all the holes in each slice of the cheese line up.
The layers here should have included:
- safe design of the aircraft, by the designer
- proper construction of the aircraft, by the builder
- regular maintenance of the aircraft, by the owner
- thorough inspection of the aircraft, by the buyer
- for an inexperienced buyer, an independent inspection by a better qualified person
- test flights by a pilot with the necessary experience for that role
- routine pre-flight checks before each flight
- flight planning for ferry flights, suitable for the pilot's experience and currency
- after an accident occured:
- thorough investigation involving any necessary authorities
- determination of the causes, and identification of any remaining defects
- independent evaluation of the pilot's actions
- retraining as necessary to correct any shortcomings
- repairs made correctly to the aircraft
- independent inspection of repairs
It's not so much that all the holes in the cheese lined up, as that most of them were missing entirely and the rest had been eaten by mice. And yet somehow, the remaining crumbs still lined up well enough that this fuckwit is still alive.
I've lost friends when they did everything right and the holes still lined up. This guy can fuck all the way off.
posted by automatronic at 4:24 AM on October 4, 2021 [20 favorites]
Am I wrong in thinking about how much time and money was spent by others (oftentimes civil servants, who taxpayers pay for) to help out this guy across his 7 days of whimsy? Michigan State Troopers helping him out, employees going above and beyond while on the clock and so on?
Don't get me wrong... I don't always have a problem with folks who choose to do idiotic things. And this isn't to the same degree as the idiots who race their sail boats alone across the ocean or climb dangerous mountains and almost always need rescue.
What I have a problem with is this idea that we're supposed to admire these people for their "bravery" or "rugged individualism" when their impetuous and selfish actions often demand attention, time and other resources from others.
Someone is always paying for these privileged people's hobbies.
posted by engelgrafik at 6:56 AM on October 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
Don't get me wrong... I don't always have a problem with folks who choose to do idiotic things. And this isn't to the same degree as the idiots who race their sail boats alone across the ocean or climb dangerous mountains and almost always need rescue.
What I have a problem with is this idea that we're supposed to admire these people for their "bravery" or "rugged individualism" when their impetuous and selfish actions often demand attention, time and other resources from others.
Someone is always paying for these privileged people's hobbies.
posted by engelgrafik at 6:56 AM on October 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
And really: If you can afford a plane but can't afford to repair it, you can't actually afford the plane.
I can verify that this also applies to a used Jaguar XJ-S. My guess is it applies to a whole lot of things.
It definitely applies to wooden sailboats, maybe more than any other vehicle. Whether in or out of the water, sailboats lose seaworthiness over time as whichever environment they're in affects them; AFAICT planes and cars tend to take to storage pretty well and only degrade rapidly with use.
OTOH, a poorly maintained sailboat is a lot less likely to kill you than a Jag or light plane.
posted by jackbishop at 7:31 AM on October 4, 2021
I can verify that this also applies to a used Jaguar XJ-S. My guess is it applies to a whole lot of things.
It definitely applies to wooden sailboats, maybe more than any other vehicle. Whether in or out of the water, sailboats lose seaworthiness over time as whichever environment they're in affects them; AFAICT planes and cars tend to take to storage pretty well and only degrade rapidly with use.
OTOH, a poorly maintained sailboat is a lot less likely to kill you than a Jag or light plane.
posted by jackbishop at 7:31 AM on October 4, 2021
Close-Up: The John Denver Crash, AVweb, January 28, 1999:
posted by cenoxo at 8:06 AM on October 4, 2021
On October 12, 1997, the Experimental Long-EZ piloted by singer-songwriter John Denver crashed into the Pacific Ocean off the California coast. Denver, the plane's only occupant, was killed. On January 26, 1999, the National Transportation Safety Board agreed on an Executive Summary of its final report into the Denver crash, determined its probable cause and made its safety recommendations. Earlier, the Board published its factual report. The following is a combination of the two documents: the NTSB's executive summary and its factual report.Details in the article. Additional background info at Check-Six.com, "The Wings That Fly Us Home”: wealth, overconfidence, poor design, and bad habits are a risky combination.
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
On October 12, 1997, about 1728 Pacific daylight time, an experimental category, amateur-built Adrian Davis Long-EZ airplane, N555JD, crashed into the Pacific Ocean near Pacific Grove, California. Air traffic control communications indicated that the airplane had departed from the Monterey Peninsula Airport’s runway 28L about 1712, and the pilot performed three touch-and-go landings and departed to the west moments before the accident. Witness reported that they heard engine popping and a reduction in engine noise before the accident. The pilot made no distress calls. The pilot was killed, and the airplane was destroyed….
posted by cenoxo at 8:06 AM on October 4, 2021
Sad to not see backseatpilot in this thread, though it's possible he read the article and that someone needs to go check on him and make sure he's doing all right.
posted by ZaphodB at 8:27 AM on October 4, 2021
posted by ZaphodB at 8:27 AM on October 4, 2021
I'm sorta bummed that we'll never know the full set of goddamn stupid mechanical faults the plane had now that it's 300' in the inky depths. I mean, the fuel gauges were mounted backwards?!??! jeezum crow. The trim servo got stuck? The "oops, there goes your hydraulic pressure!" incident? Was this all stuff that a qualified mechanic might've caught after the first crash, or was it so poorly originally built that it would've needed a complete teardown and rebuild to be sure?
posted by Kyol at 8:46 AM on October 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Kyol at 8:46 AM on October 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I checked his flights in FlightAware (FA) and ADS-B Exchange (ADSBX).
To put this in context, he's already flown about 5 hours cross country and is now flying an aircraft that is known to have multiple mechanical problems overwater where he'll be more than 10 miles from land for portions of the flight. He planned on landing about 30 minutes before sunset, so if anything goes wrong there was a good chance he'd be in the water at night waiting for rescue.
He makes the crossing at about 5500 feet altitude which wasn't even close to enough altitude to get to land, let alone the airport he was trying for—he was 10 miles short of the airport. There's also a significant wiggle to the track early in the flight making me wonder how he was navigating.
He crashed as he flew—with terrible planning.
posted by jjwiseman at 9:05 AM on October 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
Next stop — a layover in New Mexico and Collier’s first night landing in 20 years.FA says he actually arrived at Four Corners Regional airport (KFMN) at about 9:30 PM local time (screenshot). ADSBX didn't have coverage of the landing but has him about 10 miles away from KFMN at 8:15 PM.
It was 3:22 a.m. and the descent did not go well.
On July 2, Collier was airborne again.According to FA (screenshot) and ADSBX he actually left New Mexico 2 days later, on June 29.
Slicing through the sky over America’s breadbasket, however, Collier again encountered trouble.Neither FA nor ADSBX have enough coverage of the landing to see the attempts, but according to the FA speed and altitude chart it looks like about half way through the flight he did start having some trouble keeping a constant altitude and more trouble keeping a constant speed.
The left wing’s servo (hinged tab) was stuck, he said, and the nose of the plane kept pitching up. When it got worse, Collier put a rag between his knee and the yoke (steering wheel) and pushed as hard as he could toward Nebraska.
There was stalling, there was skipping through the rough and there was crisscrossing the runway but after four attempts, Collier said he landed at O’Neill Municipal Airport in Holt County.
But the wing flaps weren’t responding and the hydraulic pressure gauge read nil. Collier said he had no choice but to attempt his first water landing.The FA data tell this story well. He turns back toward Beaver Island Airport, I assume decreasing speed to his best glide speed, but doesn't have enough altitude to make it.
To put this in context, he's already flown about 5 hours cross country and is now flying an aircraft that is known to have multiple mechanical problems overwater where he'll be more than 10 miles from land for portions of the flight. He planned on landing about 30 minutes before sunset, so if anything goes wrong there was a good chance he'd be in the water at night waiting for rescue.
He makes the crossing at about 5500 feet altitude which wasn't even close to enough altitude to get to land, let alone the airport he was trying for—he was 10 miles short of the airport. There's also a significant wiggle to the track early in the flight making me wonder how he was navigating.
He crashed as he flew—with terrible planning.
posted by jjwiseman at 9:05 AM on October 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
What I am wondering is if the guy had the beginnings of dementia, despite this assertion: "Rich man buys poorly built toy" I was more under the impression that he spent his last dime to buy this airplane; he did not have insurance, he had to borrow a credit card to buy gas, his cell phone was "turned off". I suspect he is now broke and is a victim of an idee fixe.
posted by Pembquist at 2:54 PM on October 3
I'm not keen to ascribe any mental issues here, but I also got the impression that he'd spent his last cent to buy this plane. Which does gives some insight into his terrible decision-making afterwards.
posted by ZaphodB at 9:05 AM on October 4, 2021
posted by Pembquist at 2:54 PM on October 3
I'm not keen to ascribe any mental issues here, but I also got the impression that he'd spent his last cent to buy this plane. Which does gives some insight into his terrible decision-making afterwards.
posted by ZaphodB at 9:05 AM on October 4, 2021
Heh, I forgot it's a seaplane. But that part also didn't work!
posted by jjwiseman at 9:11 AM on October 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by jjwiseman at 9:11 AM on October 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oh jesus, he flew like 95% of the northern route around Lake Michigan, but then decided to hop across the very northern part rather than flying through to Mackinaw? I don't know what the airfield situation is like in the UP, maybe Beaver Island Airport was the closest next one after Manistique, but _oof_ after six crashes I'd have been flying as high as I could over long straight roads if you know what I mean, and not going anywhere near water until I'd had a seaworthiness check.
posted by Kyol at 9:19 AM on October 4, 2021
posted by Kyol at 9:19 AM on October 4, 2021
Crash down seven times, take off eight.
posted by notoriety public at 1:09 PM on October 4, 2021
posted by notoriety public at 1:09 PM on October 4, 2021
Sad to not see backseatpilot in this thread
Oh hi! This story went around the pilot circles right around when it happened. General consensus, shockingly, is that the buyer is a moron. The decision making on display is truly next level.
I’m not a pilot, but I’m pretty sure planes don’t just stall of their own accord.
That is an accurate assessment, yes.
Everything you've ever heard about airliner safety, doesn't apply to general aviation.
I had a friend in high school whose father died in an accident while flying an "ultralight." It did seem like a lot of fun right up until then.
One of the things that I feel the need to point out is that aviation is a huge spectrum with, yes, varying degrees of safety. General aviation encompasses basically anything that is not "commercial airliner" so even that category is very wide. You can buy an ultralight for a few hundred bucks and fly it without any sort of training or licensing. "Experimental" aircraft generally implies "homebuilt" but could mean anything from a napkin design some schmoe put together in his basement to kits that are essentially as stringently designed and produced as any certificated plane, but without spending the (huge!) cost to get the FAA sign off (it's a very common way for GA startups to gain some traction, actually). So it's a little more nuanced than "small plane = dangerous," but it is true that experimentals are statistically a bit less safe than certificated planes (though maybe not for reasons you might expect - a plurality of those crashes are on the first few test/shakedown flights, implying an unfamiliarity with the aircraft is more to blame than manufacturing problems). I'm not familiar enough with the Seawind to make any statements on that particular design.
What I have a problem with is this idea that we're supposed to admire these people for their "bravery" or "rugged individualism" when their impetuous and selfish actions often demand attention, time and other resources from others.
Based on the discussions I've seen, the only person patting this guy on the back is himself. The flying community is generally pretty against people that give us a bad name, because it tends to result in things like airports getting shut down. Privileges only get removed, they never get expanded.
AFAICT planes and cars tend to take to storage pretty well and only degrade rapidly with use.
Counterintuitively, airplanes that sit around are highly suspect. Lots of the systems, engines especially, last longer if they're used regularly. It avoids things like seals drying out and corrosion setting in. A hangar queen can be a huge safety hazard.
Was this all stuff that a qualified mechanic might've caught after the first crash, or was it so poorly originally built that it would've needed a complete teardown and rebuild to be sure?
Ideally, you would perform a "pre-buy" with a trusted mechanic who would do a very extensive inspection of the candidate plane and provide all of this info to you before you agree to buy the thing. It's a bit like getting a home inspector before buying a house - the mechanic comes up with a list of issues, and you can negotiate with the seller to either repair them or knock some dollars off the asking price.
Fun thing about the experimental category, though - you don't need to be a licensed mechanic to do any of the work on a plane like that! (Which is why a regular person can build one in their garage.) The annual inspection done for certificated airplanes (which requires a mechanic) can be performed by the builder, and there's no prescribed set of activities that needs to happen for experimentals.
he did not have insurance
The way the aircraft insurance market is at the moment, this isn't surprising. Dude could have been Chuck Yeager and he wouldn't have gotten insurance for this plane. The market is very risk averse at the moment.
posted by backseatpilot at 2:11 PM on October 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
Oh hi! This story went around the pilot circles right around when it happened. General consensus, shockingly, is that the buyer is a moron. The decision making on display is truly next level.
I’m not a pilot, but I’m pretty sure planes don’t just stall of their own accord.
That is an accurate assessment, yes.
Everything you've ever heard about airliner safety, doesn't apply to general aviation.
I had a friend in high school whose father died in an accident while flying an "ultralight." It did seem like a lot of fun right up until then.
One of the things that I feel the need to point out is that aviation is a huge spectrum with, yes, varying degrees of safety. General aviation encompasses basically anything that is not "commercial airliner" so even that category is very wide. You can buy an ultralight for a few hundred bucks and fly it without any sort of training or licensing. "Experimental" aircraft generally implies "homebuilt" but could mean anything from a napkin design some schmoe put together in his basement to kits that are essentially as stringently designed and produced as any certificated plane, but without spending the (huge!) cost to get the FAA sign off (it's a very common way for GA startups to gain some traction, actually). So it's a little more nuanced than "small plane = dangerous," but it is true that experimentals are statistically a bit less safe than certificated planes (though maybe not for reasons you might expect - a plurality of those crashes are on the first few test/shakedown flights, implying an unfamiliarity with the aircraft is more to blame than manufacturing problems). I'm not familiar enough with the Seawind to make any statements on that particular design.
What I have a problem with is this idea that we're supposed to admire these people for their "bravery" or "rugged individualism" when their impetuous and selfish actions often demand attention, time and other resources from others.
Based on the discussions I've seen, the only person patting this guy on the back is himself. The flying community is generally pretty against people that give us a bad name, because it tends to result in things like airports getting shut down. Privileges only get removed, they never get expanded.
AFAICT planes and cars tend to take to storage pretty well and only degrade rapidly with use.
Counterintuitively, airplanes that sit around are highly suspect. Lots of the systems, engines especially, last longer if they're used regularly. It avoids things like seals drying out and corrosion setting in. A hangar queen can be a huge safety hazard.
Was this all stuff that a qualified mechanic might've caught after the first crash, or was it so poorly originally built that it would've needed a complete teardown and rebuild to be sure?
Ideally, you would perform a "pre-buy" with a trusted mechanic who would do a very extensive inspection of the candidate plane and provide all of this info to you before you agree to buy the thing. It's a bit like getting a home inspector before buying a house - the mechanic comes up with a list of issues, and you can negotiate with the seller to either repair them or knock some dollars off the asking price.
Fun thing about the experimental category, though - you don't need to be a licensed mechanic to do any of the work on a plane like that! (Which is why a regular person can build one in their garage.) The annual inspection done for certificated airplanes (which requires a mechanic) can be performed by the builder, and there's no prescribed set of activities that needs to happen for experimentals.
he did not have insurance
The way the aircraft insurance market is at the moment, this isn't surprising. Dude could have been Chuck Yeager and he wouldn't have gotten insurance for this plane. The market is very risk averse at the moment.
posted by backseatpilot at 2:11 PM on October 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
Crash down seven times, take off eight.
RULES OF THE AIR
1. Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory.
[23 more follow…]
posted by cenoxo at 3:31 PM on October 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
RULES OF THE AIR
1. Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory.
[23 more follow…]
posted by cenoxo at 3:31 PM on October 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also a bit weird is the low deposit amount. $4K on $110K is pretty light. I might take that as a non-refundable deposit if you're distant and are desperate to "hold" the item in a hot market, but if you've actually agreed to buy I'd want at least $20K on $110K as a deposit. But maybe that's just me.
posted by maxwelton at 3:36 PM on October 4, 2021
posted by maxwelton at 3:36 PM on October 4, 2021
But Collier said the Seawind wasn't insured.
What is it about that that bothers me?
posted by bendy at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2021
What is it about that that bothers me?
posted by bendy at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2021
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