Slurs and monkey sounds blare near a Black family’s home.
October 6, 2021 10:23 PM Subscribe
A neighbor is blaring racist slurs and monkey sounds at a Black family’s home. Why isn’t it a hate crime? [archive.today] “Whenever we would step out of our house, the monkey noises would start,” Martinez told WAVY. “It’s so racist, and it’s disgusting. … I don’t even know how else to explain it.”
Responses:
Virginia Beach PD: “As appalling and offensive as the neighbors’ behaviors are, the city attorney and Virginia magistrates have separately determined that the actions thus far did not rise to a level that Virginia law defines as criminal behavior. This means the VBPD has had no authority to intervene and warrants were not supported,” police said. “We will closely monitor the situation, investigate complaints and, within the limits of the law, help this family with this most unpleasant situation.”
Dana Schrad, Executive Director of Chiefs of Police: “You can walk a fine line and not cross over into something ‘actionable.’ This neighbor knows exactly how to walk the line, but it doesn’t make his actions any less harmful to the family.”
Legal:
FBI defines a hate crime: A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, the FBI has defined a hate crime as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.” Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.
Commonwealth of Virginia: "Hate crime" means (i) a criminal act committed against a person or his property with the specific intent of instilling fear or intimidation in the individual against whom the act is perpetrated because of race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin or that is committed for the purpose of restraining that person from exercising his rights under the Constitution or laws of the Commonwealth or of the United States; (ii) any illegal act directed against any persons or their property because of those persons' race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin; and (iii) all other incidents, as determined by law-enforcement authorities, intended to intimidate or harass any individual or group because of race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin."
It seems then, that according to Virginia law, not even intrusive and offensive audio like this is "determined by law-enforcement authorities, intended to intimidate or harass any individual or group because of race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin."
Responses:
Virginia Beach PD: “As appalling and offensive as the neighbors’ behaviors are, the city attorney and Virginia magistrates have separately determined that the actions thus far did not rise to a level that Virginia law defines as criminal behavior. This means the VBPD has had no authority to intervene and warrants were not supported,” police said. “We will closely monitor the situation, investigate complaints and, within the limits of the law, help this family with this most unpleasant situation.”
Dana Schrad, Executive Director of Chiefs of Police: “You can walk a fine line and not cross over into something ‘actionable.’ This neighbor knows exactly how to walk the line, but it doesn’t make his actions any less harmful to the family.”
Legal:
FBI defines a hate crime: A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, the FBI has defined a hate crime as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.” Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.
Commonwealth of Virginia: "Hate crime" means (i) a criminal act committed against a person or his property with the specific intent of instilling fear or intimidation in the individual against whom the act is perpetrated because of race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin or that is committed for the purpose of restraining that person from exercising his rights under the Constitution or laws of the Commonwealth or of the United States; (ii) any illegal act directed against any persons or their property because of those persons' race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin; and (iii) all other incidents, as determined by law-enforcement authorities, intended to intimidate or harass any individual or group because of race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin."
It seems then, that according to Virginia law, not even intrusive and offensive audio like this is "determined by law-enforcement authorities, intended to intimidate or harass any individual or group because of race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin."
Neighbor's racist, vengeful, unbalanced, and flashing strobe lights at children. WaPo, from the FPP: When her neighbor’s banjo music became so loud that it shook her Virginia Beach home, Jannique Martinez called the police on the man for his booming speakers. The Black family had faced constant loud music since moving to the neighborhood five years ago, but this time over the summer was different. Martinez was stunned at what she was hearing and seeing on her front lawn in July: music blaring racial slurs and monkey sounds as strobe lights flashed on her home.
Norfolk, Va local outlet WAVY News: Several residents in a Salem Lakes cul de sac are fed up with their neighbor after they say he’s taunted them from behind his front door for more than a year. In the past, Jannique Martinez said music would play loudly over her neighbor’s speakers, shaking her home. Recently, after alerting police about the music, Martinez said her neighbor has retaliated by playing racial slurs and monkey noises. [...] Her family isn’t the only one feeling harassed by the neighbor’s antics. Other families in the cul de sac have songs played while their outside as well. “The minute I open my front door, those lights blink, or my music, or ‘my song’ comes on. Soon as they get to their driveway, it blinks, they have a specific song too,” Martinez said pointing to another neighboring home. In addition to the sounds, neighbors are concerned about the eight home security cameras on his property. “We are constantly under surveillance. There are a total of eight cameras that we know of,” Martinez explained. [...]
“According to the law, it’s just a statement or a phrase or he’s not doing enough or bodily harm or threats to my family,” said Martinez. “Why does it have to go that far before something that can be done? People shouldn’t have to live like this. I spent 11 years in the military. My husband is also in the military. We fought for this country, but yet there’s no one to fight for us.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:05 PM on October 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
Norfolk, Va local outlet WAVY News: Several residents in a Salem Lakes cul de sac are fed up with their neighbor after they say he’s taunted them from behind his front door for more than a year. In the past, Jannique Martinez said music would play loudly over her neighbor’s speakers, shaking her home. Recently, after alerting police about the music, Martinez said her neighbor has retaliated by playing racial slurs and monkey noises. [...] Her family isn’t the only one feeling harassed by the neighbor’s antics. Other families in the cul de sac have songs played while their outside as well. “The minute I open my front door, those lights blink, or my music, or ‘my song’ comes on. Soon as they get to their driveway, it blinks, they have a specific song too,” Martinez said pointing to another neighboring home. In addition to the sounds, neighbors are concerned about the eight home security cameras on his property. “We are constantly under surveillance. There are a total of eight cameras that we know of,” Martinez explained. [...]
“According to the law, it’s just a statement or a phrase or he’s not doing enough or bodily harm or threats to my family,” said Martinez. “Why does it have to go that far before something that can be done? People shouldn’t have to live like this. I spent 11 years in the military. My husband is also in the military. We fought for this country, but yet there’s no one to fight for us.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:05 PM on October 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
So... civil suit? I didn't see any mention of that idea... anyone?
posted by amtho at 11:06 PM on October 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by amtho at 11:06 PM on October 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
...not only gross, but total bullshit. There has to be something they can do.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:09 PM on October 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:09 PM on October 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
So... civil suit? I didn't see any mention of that idea... anyone?
What tort are you going to sue him over? That's the whole issue here - the asshole in question is making very sure to go right up to the line defined by the letter of the law to engage in his harassment.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:14 PM on October 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
What tort are you going to sue him over? That's the whole issue here - the asshole in question is making very sure to go right up to the line defined by the letter of the law to engage in his harassment.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:14 PM on October 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Surely the neighbour must be breaking some local law of general application that can't be regarded as infringing freedom of speech. I mean, surely Virginia Beach has ordinances about an acceptable level of sound, and if it doesn't: it should.
That being said, I'm not a free speech absolutist, and although Australia has no constitutionally-guaranteed protection of this right, I haven't noticed that we're actually less free.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:28 PM on October 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
That being said, I'm not a free speech absolutist, and although Australia has no constitutionally-guaranteed protection of this right, I haven't noticed that we're actually less free.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:28 PM on October 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
I don't know if this is encouraging or not: The Virginian-Pilot, Oct. 1 - Since The Pilot’s story was published Monday, the Virginia Fair Housing Office reached out to the Martinez family through a reporter and it is now looking into their complaints. The office investigates alleged cases of “coercion, intimidation, threats or interference with any person in the exercise or enjoyment of their fair housing rights.”
In its statement, the Virginia Beach PD said it had "responded to several calls for service over the past several months related to nuisance/loud music complaints on Jessamine Court." Every time he starts the soundtrack and the light show, fine him for violating noise ordinances: "Any person who violates any provision of this article shall be deemed to be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor for a first offense. Any person who violates a provision of this article within one (1) year after a previous conviction under this article shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor."
A class 3 misdemeanor is "a fine of not more than $500." A class 2 misdemeanor is "confinement in jail for not more than six months and a fine of not more than $1,000, either or both."
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:30 PM on October 6, 2021 [24 favorites]
In its statement, the Virginia Beach PD said it had "responded to several calls for service over the past several months related to nuisance/loud music complaints on Jessamine Court." Every time he starts the soundtrack and the light show, fine him for violating noise ordinances: "Any person who violates any provision of this article shall be deemed to be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor for a first offense. Any person who violates a provision of this article within one (1) year after a previous conviction under this article shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor."
A class 3 misdemeanor is "a fine of not more than $500." A class 2 misdemeanor is "confinement in jail for not more than six months and a fine of not more than $1,000, either or both."
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:30 PM on October 6, 2021 [24 favorites]
From an outside perspective it's way past time that the US stopped enshrining its archaic constitution at the expense of what is considered civilised in much of the rest of the modern world; in this case that hate speech should really no longer be considered protected behaviour at the behest of a naive and outdated definition of freedom of speech.
posted by walrus at 11:32 PM on October 6, 2021 [33 favorites]
posted by walrus at 11:32 PM on October 6, 2021 [33 favorites]
I'm trying to imagine how many minutes this would last if a neighbor was doing it to Virginia Beach Police Chief Paul W. Neudigate's house.
posted by sy at 12:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [91 favorites]
posted by sy at 12:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [91 favorites]
What about all the crazy 'Housing Association' stories you hear? Where if the grass is too high you forfeit your house?
Wouldn't fair play be to return the favour? Play, I dunno kazoo-orchestra Wagner every time he leaves his house? Maybe drum and bass 'Dixie'? And do the same flashing lights and etc:?
Or... never mind, step too far there... but I would think a civil nuisance suit, or call the police with a noise complaint every time - if all the neighbours do it, squeaky wheels, grease, etc.
The other option is to try and reel the guy in, get him to join the human race - much more difficult, but ultimately the biggest win. Convince him (I'm assuming its a him) that there's a better, easier, more rewarding way to get through and that it is built around recognising the humanity of your fellow humans ... I'd like to think it's worth a try while acknowledging that some people are too fucked up to change. Which is sad. (And in the mean time he's fucking with everyone's right to just peaceably get on with things.)
posted by From Bklyn at 2:26 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Wouldn't fair play be to return the favour? Play, I dunno kazoo-orchestra Wagner every time he leaves his house? Maybe drum and bass 'Dixie'? And do the same flashing lights and etc:?
Or... never mind, step too far there... but I would think a civil nuisance suit, or call the police with a noise complaint every time - if all the neighbours do it, squeaky wheels, grease, etc.
The other option is to try and reel the guy in, get him to join the human race - much more difficult, but ultimately the biggest win. Convince him (I'm assuming its a him) that there's a better, easier, more rewarding way to get through and that it is built around recognising the humanity of your fellow humans ... I'd like to think it's worth a try while acknowledging that some people are too fucked up to change. Which is sad. (And in the mean time he's fucking with everyone's right to just peaceably get on with things.)
posted by From Bklyn at 2:26 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
The problem isn’t a lack of laws or the constitution. The problem here is that the local police and the prosecutor are failing to apply the laws we have to deal with this kind of problem. Probably because of racism or because of a concern that it would be an expensive time sink to prosecute vs the other cases in their backlog.
posted by interogative mood at 2:44 AM on October 7, 2021 [42 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 2:44 AM on October 7, 2021 [42 favorites]
There's a guy near me who did similar things to his Black neighbors:
He's also – big surprise – a bellicose anti-masker.
It's truly difficult to understand what's wrong with some people.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:43 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
Residents of one New Market, Maryland neighborhood say they are being terrorized by their neighbor, Shaun Porter. Neighbors say Porter erects large, offensive signs in his yard – calling out residents, members of the neighborhood home owners association, even the local sheriff. He has placed numerous Confederate flags around his property and his vehicles, even spent an entire day in his front yard (as pictured above) with his middle-school-aged son, covered in Confederate flag clothing, waving to and taunting neighbors. Neighbors also report that he regularly displays assault rifles and weapons in the front windows of his home.This is from 2015. I don't know what became of the situation. But the same guy can be seen around town, staging a protest of one, with giant inflammatory signs, for hours.
... Local police say they are investigating, but have not charged him with a crime.
He's also – big surprise – a bellicose anti-masker.
It's truly difficult to understand what's wrong with some people.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:43 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
Wouldn't fair play be to return the favour? Play, I dunno kazoo-orchestra Wagner every time he leaves his house? Maybe drum and bass 'Dixie'?
No - hit that fucker with Cotton-Eye Joe.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:52 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
No - hit that fucker with Cotton-Eye Joe.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:52 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
This is bullshit. All the people quoted saying there's nothing they can do are cops. Lawyers (who are of course given less space in the article) don't seem to agree. This is not a free speech question! Harassment, stalking, noise ordinances... there's plenty of laws out there if the cops applied the law toward these racists as they do toward Black people.
posted by latkes at 4:20 AM on October 7, 2021 [59 favorites]
posted by latkes at 4:20 AM on October 7, 2021 [59 favorites]
Sue the cops for dereliction of duty (or something similar).
posted by oddman at 4:22 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by oddman at 4:22 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
So the cops are waiting until this hateful human commits something they consider a crime before they act? Tell me again how we need police to prevent crime???
posted by spindrifter at 4:34 AM on October 7, 2021 [28 favorites]
posted by spindrifter at 4:34 AM on October 7, 2021 [28 favorites]
Cops don't have a duty to protect you.
Cops also get to choose what speech is immediately allowable with few or no consequences.
posted by Slackermagee at 4:34 AM on October 7, 2021 [25 favorites]
Cops also get to choose what speech is immediately allowable with few or no consequences.
posted by Slackermagee at 4:34 AM on October 7, 2021 [25 favorites]
what the ever loving shit
posted by Kitteh at 5:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 5:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
The Post is not naming him because he hasn’t been charged with a crime
Fucking cowards. Part of the problem they’re reporting on.
posted by Jon_Evil at 5:20 AM on October 7, 2021 [30 favorites]
Fucking cowards. Part of the problem they’re reporting on.
posted by Jon_Evil at 5:20 AM on October 7, 2021 [30 favorites]
Seems like the cops are actively avoid ing their duty to record decibel levels to enforce the noise ordinance of Virginia beach. If you don't look, you won't find the violation.
Some jurisdictions' noise ordinances don't require active measurements of the noise for this reason. Usually the levels are written to be low enough that it s common sense. Also, anyone can make a measurement with a smartphone nowadays.
Also, c'mon. We all know cops have the most ridiculous sections of the municipal code memorized. If they wanted to stop this person, they could do it.
posted by eustatic at 5:34 AM on October 7, 2021 [20 favorites]
Some jurisdictions' noise ordinances don't require active measurements of the noise for this reason. Usually the levels are written to be low enough that it s common sense. Also, anyone can make a measurement with a smartphone nowadays.
Also, c'mon. We all know cops have the most ridiculous sections of the municipal code memorized. If they wanted to stop this person, they could do it.
posted by eustatic at 5:34 AM on October 7, 2021 [20 favorites]
What tort are you going to sue him over? That's the whole issue here - the asshole in question is making very sure to go right up to the line defined by the letter of the law to engage in his harassment.
Perhaps this, descended from the 1810 Anti-Dueling Act?
§ 8.01-45. Action for insulting words.
All words shall be actionable which from their usual construction and common acceptance are construed as insults and tend to violence and breach of the peace.
posted by mikelieman at 5:36 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
Perhaps this, descended from the 1810 Anti-Dueling Act?
§ 8.01-45. Action for insulting words.
All words shall be actionable which from their usual construction and common acceptance are construed as insults and tend to violence and breach of the peace.
posted by mikelieman at 5:36 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
(iii) all other incidents, as determined by law-enforcement authorities, intended to intimidate or harass any individual or group because of race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin
Yeah, the cops could totally be doing something about this and are choosing not to.
posted by eviemath at 5:37 AM on October 7, 2021 [13 favorites]
Yeah, the cops could totally be doing something about this and are choosing not to.
posted by eviemath at 5:37 AM on October 7, 2021 [13 favorites]
... the cops applied the law toward these racists as they do toward Black people.
I think it generally best not to wish death on people.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:41 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think it generally best not to wish death on people.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:41 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Even without any relevant laws or statutes, they could do the thing cops do to suppress speech of leftist protesters all the time: arrest the dude on “disturbing the peace” charges, release him with conditions that prevent him from doing the thing they don’t like (that would effectively criminalize doing the objectionable thing just for him, specifically, in the time period up until his trial), wait six months for his trial, then drop the charges the day before.
posted by eviemath at 5:42 AM on October 7, 2021 [41 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 5:42 AM on October 7, 2021 [41 favorites]
cops are awful.
posted by james33 at 5:45 AM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by james33 at 5:45 AM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
The asshole blasting monkey sounds at his neighbors is not the problem. The very fact that there is an earnest debate over whether it IS a problem is in itself the goddamn problem.
And it’s still ridiculous that they can’t seem to figure out how to get an actionable point to start firing back. He has motion detectors AIMED AT HIS BLACK NEIGHBORS, not at his own yard or street or even the people on the other side of this house. The motion detectors play sounds and ethnic slurs that are SPECIFICALLY TARGETED to be insulting to his neighbors (who I’m assuming are likely the only black people in the immediate vicinity?) How the almighty hell are they not clear on whether this can be considered “targeted”? Oh wait, because under Virginia law in absence of violence, to meet the level of hate crime, the “targeting” has to meet a standard determined by law enforcement. So we can all pretty much see how THAT is gonna play out.
posted by caution live frogs at 5:51 AM on October 7, 2021 [23 favorites]
And it’s still ridiculous that they can’t seem to figure out how to get an actionable point to start firing back. He has motion detectors AIMED AT HIS BLACK NEIGHBORS, not at his own yard or street or even the people on the other side of this house. The motion detectors play sounds and ethnic slurs that are SPECIFICALLY TARGETED to be insulting to his neighbors (who I’m assuming are likely the only black people in the immediate vicinity?) How the almighty hell are they not clear on whether this can be considered “targeted”? Oh wait, because under Virginia law in absence of violence, to meet the level of hate crime, the “targeting” has to meet a standard determined by law enforcement. So we can all pretty much see how THAT is gonna play out.
posted by caution live frogs at 5:51 AM on October 7, 2021 [23 favorites]
cops are awful.
Hey, but don't kill them. Put them out in the yard to eat mosquitoes.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:51 AM on October 7, 2021 [33 favorites]
Hey, but don't kill them. Put them out in the yard to eat mosquitoes.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:51 AM on October 7, 2021 [33 favorites]
Hey, but don't kill them. Put them out in the yard to eat mosquitoes.
Best thread crossover comment!
posted by eviemath at 5:56 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
Best thread crossover comment!
posted by eviemath at 5:56 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
The fact that the situation is rigged to go on only when the person is present speaks to a special kind of intent that is not present for just loud music at a party. I think they could prove harassment in the way that this is clearly so targeted. Versus someone who for example, works on cars in their backyard, where it's loud, but randomly so.
posted by Professor_Fancypants at 5:59 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Professor_Fancypants at 5:59 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
(As an aside: as a kid, my brothers and I discovered that a lot of electronics, even if shielded against water, can be put on the fritz pretty easily with a super soaker. It’s not the water, it’s the sustained water PRESSURE that gets enough moisture into the housing to short it out. And a super soaker has a pretty decent range. Do with this information what you will.)
posted by caution live frogs at 5:59 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by caution live frogs at 5:59 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
I recall that police in Indianapolis and elsewhere were quick to take violent action to suppress the free speech and assembly rights of Black Lives Matter protestors. I was there when they fired tear gas into a peaceful protest.
posted by Gelatin at 6:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 6:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Just as an observation, I would imagine that blowing sand and dust would hamper the motion sensors and cameras as well?
posted by eviemath at 6:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 6:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Just as an observation, I would imagine that blowing sand and dust would hamper the motion sensors and cameras as well?
I've been having similar thoughts: if this is all triggered by motion sensors and the like, could that be a way to respond? Put up things that constantly move (pinwheels, wind socks, or RC cars come to mind) to keep it going near-constantly 24x7. While it would be miserable to live with, having the neighbors speakers going that long would (hopefully) make their life miserable, as well as perhaps create a constant noise to make it more actionalbe.
I recognize it may not work quite that way (at best, it may be ineffective or something the neighbor can adjust settings to avoid, at worst, it may backfire (the HOA gets upset about the pinwheels)), but it just feels like the technology could be used against the neighbor.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:59 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've been having similar thoughts: if this is all triggered by motion sensors and the like, could that be a way to respond? Put up things that constantly move (pinwheels, wind socks, or RC cars come to mind) to keep it going near-constantly 24x7. While it would be miserable to live with, having the neighbors speakers going that long would (hopefully) make their life miserable, as well as perhaps create a constant noise to make it more actionalbe.
I recognize it may not work quite that way (at best, it may be ineffective or something the neighbor can adjust settings to avoid, at worst, it may backfire (the HOA gets upset about the pinwheels)), but it just feels like the technology could be used against the neighbor.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:59 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
It’s not the water, it’s the sustained water PRESSURE
Hydrofluoric acid can be somewhat corrosive, I've heard, you know, like dissolving glass lenses.
posted by StickyCarpet at 7:00 AM on October 7, 2021
Hydrofluoric acid can be somewhat corrosive, I've heard, you know, like dissolving glass lenses.
posted by StickyCarpet at 7:00 AM on October 7, 2021
So the cops are waiting until this hateful human commits something they consider a crime before they act? Tell me again how we need police to prevent crime???
I should hope so. I really don't want cops taking action against people, whether hateful or not, who city lawyers believe have not committed a crime. (I do hope the city attorneys are wrong.)
And NPR reports that community support has helped: A neighborhood rally helped to quiet racist noise blaring from a Virginia home.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:02 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
I should hope so. I really don't want cops taking action against people, whether hateful or not, who city lawyers believe have not committed a crime. (I do hope the city attorneys are wrong.)
And NPR reports that community support has helped: A neighborhood rally helped to quiet racist noise blaring from a Virginia home.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:02 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
You know that secret Havana Syndrome weapon? Seems like a potential use case.
posted by chavenet at 7:14 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by chavenet at 7:14 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Doxx the fucker and ruin his life. No cutesy shit, just ruin everything he has.
posted by Ferreous at 7:20 AM on October 7, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 7:20 AM on October 7, 2021 [22 favorites]
Yeah, the problem here isn't that the pigs **CAN'T** do anything, it's that they won't.
If it was a Black man harassing a white family this way, or anyone harassing a cop's family, you can bet they'd find plenty of things to charge the Black guy with. A pig can always find a reason to arrest anyone they want. They just don't want to becuase, surprise, they're white supremacists.
As for the various suggestions to do something to the racist person in question or his property, I can tell you exactly how that'd end: he'd shoot either the person who did it or one of the Black neighbors, invoke the castle doctrine, and the cops would give him a pat on the back for defending his home and he wouldn't be arrested much less charged. The pigs are eager to let any white man who murders a Black man get away without any penalty at all.
Never forget George Zimmerman and the contortions the pigs and prosecutor went through to avoid charging him at all, and when they were forced (after weeks) to finally bring charges the efforts they went through to sabotage the trial and guarantee a not guilty verdict.
The simple, horrible, fact is that America is so white supremacist that the most likely end to this will be the white supremacist winning by making it so miserable that eventually the Black family moves out.
I suspect they haven't tried a civil suit because they know as well as we do that the judge there would also be a white supremacist who would find for the other white supremacist.
posted by sotonohito at 7:28 AM on October 7, 2021 [28 favorites]
If it was a Black man harassing a white family this way, or anyone harassing a cop's family, you can bet they'd find plenty of things to charge the Black guy with. A pig can always find a reason to arrest anyone they want. They just don't want to becuase, surprise, they're white supremacists.
As for the various suggestions to do something to the racist person in question or his property, I can tell you exactly how that'd end: he'd shoot either the person who did it or one of the Black neighbors, invoke the castle doctrine, and the cops would give him a pat on the back for defending his home and he wouldn't be arrested much less charged. The pigs are eager to let any white man who murders a Black man get away without any penalty at all.
Never forget George Zimmerman and the contortions the pigs and prosecutor went through to avoid charging him at all, and when they were forced (after weeks) to finally bring charges the efforts they went through to sabotage the trial and guarantee a not guilty verdict.
The simple, horrible, fact is that America is so white supremacist that the most likely end to this will be the white supremacist winning by making it so miserable that eventually the Black family moves out.
I suspect they haven't tried a civil suit because they know as well as we do that the judge there would also be a white supremacist who would find for the other white supremacist.
posted by sotonohito at 7:28 AM on October 7, 2021 [28 favorites]
I was just going to say yeah the family could get their own motion sensors & their own strobe lights & the city would 100% go after them for disturbing the peace. It's a real nightmare country.
posted by bleep at 7:31 AM on October 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by bleep at 7:31 AM on October 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
The article mentions cameras pointed at the house; I know that in some jurisdictions videoing someone without their consent is illegal. So that is another potential tool that could be used against them. And I agree that naming the victim but not the perpetrator is pretty bad. It’s not like the asshole isn’t going out of his way to call attention to himself.
posted by TedW at 7:41 AM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by TedW at 7:41 AM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
Any of the legal issues with what this guy is doing is meaningless because the police are fine with it. Him breaking some statute doesn't matter. Any justice for this fucker is going to have to come from sources beyond law enforcement.
posted by Ferreous at 7:44 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 7:44 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
Yeah, repeating for the Nth time in this thread: there are plenty of laws that cover this.
This isn't a free speech issue, this is local city and law enforcement choosing not to enforce the laws on the books.
posted by tclark at 7:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [19 favorites]
This isn't a free speech issue, this is local city and law enforcement choosing not to enforce the laws on the books.
posted by tclark at 7:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [19 favorites]
One solution would be to have some unidentified third party come and disable/destroy the equipment or cut off the home's power while the family is clearly in view of the cameras and not encouraging it in any way. Preferably while this jerk isn't at home so can't do anything about it. Much the same way that Black people's homes would be vandalized or burnt down but somehow no witnesses would be able to identify who did it.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:56 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:56 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Mark Herring, Virginia attorney general, just posted the following on his Facebook page:
"My Office of Civil Rights is in touch with the victims of this harassment and we are working alongside them and state entities to stop it. Race-based harassment and discrimination in housing is illegal, and I will not allow it to happen in Virginia."
posted by apartment dweller at 8:03 AM on October 7, 2021 [26 favorites]
"My Office of Civil Rights is in touch with the victims of this harassment and we are working alongside them and state entities to stop it. Race-based harassment and discrimination in housing is illegal, and I will not allow it to happen in Virginia."
posted by apartment dweller at 8:03 AM on October 7, 2021 [26 favorites]
This is why people organize. As usual, the state and the cops are useless here, so you use your only power, which is numbers. It sounds like most, if not all, of the neighbors are sick of this racist asshole.
Organize an around the clock picket of his house. Bang on his door 24/7 telling him to take down the cameras. Video tape him anytime he walks outside, to his car, in his backyard, yelling at him the entire time. Share this asshole's name and let the wider community know what he's doing. Follow him to work and let them know what he's been doing. Call his work and let them know his neighbors are pissed. Call his family up and let him know what he's up to. Anytime he drives anywhere follow him blaring your horn and with signs letting passerbys see what an asshole he is. If comfortable with property damage, there's an even longer laundry list of tactics that would likely make him stop.
posted by RajahKing at 8:04 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
Organize an around the clock picket of his house. Bang on his door 24/7 telling him to take down the cameras. Video tape him anytime he walks outside, to his car, in his backyard, yelling at him the entire time. Share this asshole's name and let the wider community know what he's doing. Follow him to work and let them know what he's been doing. Call his work and let them know his neighbors are pissed. Call his family up and let him know what he's up to. Anytime he drives anywhere follow him blaring your horn and with signs letting passerbys see what an asshole he is. If comfortable with property damage, there's an even longer laundry list of tactics that would likely make him stop.
posted by RajahKing at 8:04 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
What the ever loving fiddlesticks, y'all. I'm willing to consider a new constitution or amendment, but if we abandon the little mutally-mostly-agreed-upon principles we have enshrined into shared fundamental law, there's really not much protecting us from some really serious problems if we really don't like the next person/regime in power.
I mean, imagine if the previous administration could really control what was said about it? If it could just make it illegal to say that it was not the best administration ever? Or if it could shut you down or sue you or fine you if you said anything bad about the very important head executive? And what else, really, prevents that?
posted by amtho at 8:09 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
I mean, imagine if the previous administration could really control what was said about it? If it could just make it illegal to say that it was not the best administration ever? Or if it could shut you down or sue you or fine you if you said anything bad about the very important head executive? And what else, really, prevents that?
posted by amtho at 8:09 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Ah yes very equivalent things of political speech and automated hate rhetoric.
posted by Ferreous at 8:13 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 8:13 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
The neighbor in question is John Michael Eskildsen, for the record. I see no reason to be pussy-footing around this detail. The idea that we should be assisting in preserving his anonymity is disgusting.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:15 AM on October 7, 2021 [54 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:15 AM on October 7, 2021 [54 favorites]
Ah, yes. My home town. And, not at all surprising, given the continued attempts by the VB Police to confront black spring breakers since the 1980s. This is not only the typical racism of Southern cops, but a concerted effort by business and hotel interests to keep VB ‘a family friendly vacation destination.’
Anyway, that there are overt racists out in Kempsville is a given. Just as the VB Police will do nothing about them; that’s the constituency of the local government.
posted by sudogeek at 8:16 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Anyway, that there are overt racists out in Kempsville is a given. Just as the VB Police will do nothing about them; that’s the constituency of the local government.
posted by sudogeek at 8:16 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
The Post is not naming him because he hasn’t been charged with a crime
Weak sauce. This individual is performing offensive actions, which the Post deems newsworthy enough to report on, in public. There's no standard at all that says newspapers shouldn't identify people who perform actions in public unless they're charged with a crime.
Way to take the perpetrator's side, WaPo. For shame.
posted by Gelatin at 8:19 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Weak sauce. This individual is performing offensive actions, which the Post deems newsworthy enough to report on, in public. There's no standard at all that says newspapers shouldn't identify people who perform actions in public unless they're charged with a crime.
Way to take the perpetrator's side, WaPo. For shame.
posted by Gelatin at 8:19 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
(As an aside: as a kid, my brothers and I discovered that a lot of electronics, even if shielded against water, can be put on the fritz pretty easily with a super soaker. It’s not the water, it’s the sustained water PRESSURE that gets enough moisture into the housing to short it out. And a super soaker has a pretty decent range. Do with this information what you will.)
Of course, don't do this because Eskildsen is waiting for the flimsiest excuse to come out shooting.
posted by ryanrs at 8:23 AM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
Of course, don't do this because Eskildsen is waiting for the flimsiest excuse to come out shooting.
posted by ryanrs at 8:23 AM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
There definitely seems to be a potential story on investigating what noise complaints these cops *have* responded to, and in what way they differ from what this guy does.
posted by emjaybee at 8:31 AM on October 7, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 8:31 AM on October 7, 2021 [24 favorites]
If a person played "Fuck Tha Police" and pig noises at cops, I bet they would shut that shit down with no dithering or delay.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:41 AM on October 7, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:41 AM on October 7, 2021 [19 favorites]
amtho
1) This isn't a free speech case, harassment, intimidation, and public disturbance/nuisance have never been protected as free speech and equating this sort of targeted harassment to a protest is fully embracing dangerous far right wing propaganda.
2) I used to go with the whole free speech absolutism thing too. Then I noticed it was total BS.
Society, including you I'll bet, has always accepted certain prior restraints on speech. You can't distribute child pornography, for example, and this is more or less universally accepted. You can't incite violence, or create a panic leading to harm either.
So the question has never been "is there absolute free speech or not" but "where do we draw the line on prior restraint".
And one thing worth noting: that line is always positioned for the benefit of the elites and against the minority.
Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected Margaret Sanger, but it didn't. Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected LGBT people gathering and publishing in the 1950s, but it didn't. Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected the BLM protesters, but it didn't.
You're threatening a dark future that... already exists. "What if," you say, "Trump could ban speech he doesn't like?" He did. That's what all the tear gas, mass arrests, less lethal ammunation, beatings, and torture were about: the government prohibiting speech.
The myth of free speech absolutism you promote has never protected the people who need it.
But it does a great job of protecting white supremacists and Fascists.
posted by sotonohito at 8:42 AM on October 7, 2021 [76 favorites]
1) This isn't a free speech case, harassment, intimidation, and public disturbance/nuisance have never been protected as free speech and equating this sort of targeted harassment to a protest is fully embracing dangerous far right wing propaganda.
2) I used to go with the whole free speech absolutism thing too. Then I noticed it was total BS.
Society, including you I'll bet, has always accepted certain prior restraints on speech. You can't distribute child pornography, for example, and this is more or less universally accepted. You can't incite violence, or create a panic leading to harm either.
So the question has never been "is there absolute free speech or not" but "where do we draw the line on prior restraint".
And one thing worth noting: that line is always positioned for the benefit of the elites and against the minority.
Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected Margaret Sanger, but it didn't. Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected LGBT people gathering and publishing in the 1950s, but it didn't. Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected the BLM protesters, but it didn't.
You're threatening a dark future that... already exists. "What if," you say, "Trump could ban speech he doesn't like?" He did. That's what all the tear gas, mass arrests, less lethal ammunation, beatings, and torture were about: the government prohibiting speech.
The myth of free speech absolutism you promote has never protected the people who need it.
But it does a great job of protecting white supremacists and Fascists.
posted by sotonohito at 8:42 AM on October 7, 2021 [76 favorites]
What the ever loving fiddlesticks, y'all. I'm willing to consider a new constitution or amendment, but if we abandon the little mutally-mostly-agreed-upon principles we have enshrined into shared fundamental law, there's really not much protecting us from some really serious problems if we really don't like the next person/regime in power.
Ah, there's that "common good" argument. A black family cannot live in peace because if we crack down on their abusers, it's a short trip down the slippery slope to authoritarianism.
As I've said in numerous threads before, if you allow a principle to become a shield for hate and abuse, it should not surprise you when the victims reject it. People are rejecting the idea that hate speech is the price of free speech, and it's telling that free speech "absolutists" don't really have an answer.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:42 AM on October 7, 2021 [18 favorites]
Ah, there's that "common good" argument. A black family cannot live in peace because if we crack down on their abusers, it's a short trip down the slippery slope to authoritarianism.
As I've said in numerous threads before, if you allow a principle to become a shield for hate and abuse, it should not surprise you when the victims reject it. People are rejecting the idea that hate speech is the price of free speech, and it's telling that free speech "absolutists" don't really have an answer.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:42 AM on October 7, 2021 [18 favorites]
This isn't a free speech issue, this is local city and law enforcement choosing not to enforce the laws on the books.
And when national coverage does compel some agency to act, the Virginia Beach Police have given Eskildsen a powerful defense: "the police came and told me it wasn't illegal."
posted by ryanrs at 8:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
And when national coverage does compel some agency to act, the Virginia Beach Police have given Eskildsen a powerful defense: "the police came and told me it wasn't illegal."
posted by ryanrs at 8:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
I blame Reagan: in 1981, the Reagan administration eliminated all funding for the EPA's anti-noise pollution efforts. Contrasting our noisy America with more civilized countries, I've heard that in Germany you can get a noise ticket for idling your car in the driveway too long.
posted by Rash at 8:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Rash at 8:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
So fun fact, I had a neighbor like this here in Arizona, and it's AMAZING what the prosecutors and everybody overlooked.
My neighbor came over and left a nice note about my girlfriend's parking job on her car. My mother lost her absolute mind over this, screaming at him and telling him to not ever bother us again, and then (according to my girlfriend, who was the only person who saw my mom actually touch him) mom pushed the dude with a classic bully push.
Several hours later, we testified to the police, and then my mom was slapped with a misdemeanor assault charge. Two weeks later, Mom brought home all the police records and they were pretty clear.
Us: We didn't see D (my mom) do anything but she was raging pissed.
Dude's wife: I saw D hit my husband twice on the shoulder
Dude's daughter: I saw D hit my dad on the shoulder twice
Dude: OMG SHE ATTACKED ME AND CLAWED ME AND WAS A MEANYFACEPOOPYPANTS AND GIVE ME 60K FOR ALL THIS TRAUMA. I have the video! I swear! My son has the keys to the video camera though so I can't hand over the video now. Or ever.
The prosecutors then overlooked that he'd had multiple incidents like this, spanning state lines. It was amazing how fast the case was dropped as soon as my mom got a good attorney.
This is to say, cops are there to enforce a status quo, which includes punching downward. I agree with all of the above about them being absolutely useless. Blame women for altercations. Black person getting harassment? Well ... suddenly all these laws that SEEM applicable to outside people, no they're not really applicable, our hands are tied unfortunately and you just have to put up with racist abuse.
We have a lot of work to do. I hope this dude sees jail time for federal civil rights crimes.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 9:01 AM on October 7, 2021 [13 favorites]
My neighbor came over and left a nice note about my girlfriend's parking job on her car. My mother lost her absolute mind over this, screaming at him and telling him to not ever bother us again, and then (according to my girlfriend, who was the only person who saw my mom actually touch him) mom pushed the dude with a classic bully push.
Several hours later, we testified to the police, and then my mom was slapped with a misdemeanor assault charge. Two weeks later, Mom brought home all the police records and they were pretty clear.
Us: We didn't see D (my mom) do anything but she was raging pissed.
Dude's wife: I saw D hit my husband twice on the shoulder
Dude's daughter: I saw D hit my dad on the shoulder twice
Dude: OMG SHE ATTACKED ME AND CLAWED ME AND WAS A MEANYFACEPOOPYPANTS AND GIVE ME 60K FOR ALL THIS TRAUMA. I have the video! I swear! My son has the keys to the video camera though so I can't hand over the video now. Or ever.
The prosecutors then overlooked that he'd had multiple incidents like this, spanning state lines. It was amazing how fast the case was dropped as soon as my mom got a good attorney.
This is to say, cops are there to enforce a status quo, which includes punching downward. I agree with all of the above about them being absolutely useless. Blame women for altercations. Black person getting harassment? Well ... suddenly all these laws that SEEM applicable to outside people, no they're not really applicable, our hands are tied unfortunately and you just have to put up with racist abuse.
We have a lot of work to do. I hope this dude sees jail time for federal civil rights crimes.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 9:01 AM on October 7, 2021 [13 favorites]
I'll agree that as a general rule we should be cautious about prior restraint. I'm a lot less worried about post-hoc penalties. And while no longer an absolutist I'm still in favor of even awful people having actual free speech (not harassment or threats like this person is engaging in).
But yeah, I think the free speech absolutist types do a lot of harm to the concept of free speech by insisting that to have free speech we must protect the supposed right of someone to follow you around and do the "I'm not touching you" thing while screaming insults in your ear.
The average person sees some free speech absoluteist insisting that must be permitted and decide that free speech isn't worth having.
posted by sotonohito at 9:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
But yeah, I think the free speech absolutist types do a lot of harm to the concept of free speech by insisting that to have free speech we must protect the supposed right of someone to follow you around and do the "I'm not touching you" thing while screaming insults in your ear.
The average person sees some free speech absoluteist insisting that must be permitted and decide that free speech isn't worth having.
posted by sotonohito at 9:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech.
posted by bleep at 9:38 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by bleep at 9:38 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's definitely not the right solution overall, but in the absence of legal options/inertia from local government, kind of feel like there should be a fund somewhere you could donate to buy houses from the victims next to these sorts of folks and taunt the harassers back / allow the crazy to be directed away from individuals to a faceless org. Sort of like what the Planting Peace people did with the Westboro Church. Buy the houses next door and then build the biggest allowable fences possible and just contain the crazy as much as possible. If doing that impacts the harassers property prices and prevents them moving on....oh well...they made their bed....and they get to keep their free speech rights
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:49 AM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:49 AM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
This isn't a free speech issue, this is local city and law enforcement choosing not to enforce the laws on the books.
Yes, but why is that the case? I mean, we all know that the underlying reason is bigotry, but the fig leaf presented is built on "free speech" rhetoric - as long as he maintains enough plausibility, his behavior becomes no longer "actionable" because don't you know it, he has a right to play monkey calls when his motion detectors trip.
This is absolutely about how "free speech" has been twisted into a shield for abuse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:56 AM on October 7, 2021
Yes, but why is that the case? I mean, we all know that the underlying reason is bigotry, but the fig leaf presented is built on "free speech" rhetoric - as long as he maintains enough plausibility, his behavior becomes no longer "actionable" because don't you know it, he has a right to play monkey calls when his motion detectors trip.
This is absolutely about how "free speech" has been twisted into a shield for abuse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:56 AM on October 7, 2021
But if it wasn't free speech it'd be something else, or nothing at all. Them tossing up free speech is just another move in this sadistic game they're playing. Giving any credence to it is like saying the bad guy in the Saw movies was making some points about free will. Not really, no.
posted by bleep at 10:01 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:01 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
But if it wasn't free speech it'd be something else, or nothing at all. Them tossing up free speech is just another move in this sadistic game they're playing. Giving any credence to it is like saying the bad guy in the Saw movies was making some points about free will. Not really, no.
Yes, if free speech wasn't available they would find another excuse. But here's the thing - it is, and they choose it. Routinely. And the reason why is because there are people who will absolutely argue that yes, the poor bigot has a right to vent his abuse because to say otherwise would be a critical undermining of "free speech".
It's not about "giving credence", it's about pointing out that if you are going to argue that people (and let's note that it's quite often the same groups of the dispossessed of whom this ask is made) need to take abuse for "the greater good" to protect some principle - well, it's not too surprising that a lot of those people don't see the value in free speech, since it's a bat used to batter them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:23 AM on October 7, 2021
Yes, if free speech wasn't available they would find another excuse. But here's the thing - it is, and they choose it. Routinely. And the reason why is because there are people who will absolutely argue that yes, the poor bigot has a right to vent his abuse because to say otherwise would be a critical undermining of "free speech".
It's not about "giving credence", it's about pointing out that if you are going to argue that people (and let's note that it's quite often the same groups of the dispossessed of whom this ask is made) need to take abuse for "the greater good" to protect some principle - well, it's not too surprising that a lot of those people don't see the value in free speech, since it's a bat used to batter them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:23 AM on October 7, 2021
If a black family was the one being loud and hostile you know this would be on Fox News 24x7 and they’d be getting death threats.
posted by interogative mood at 10:32 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:32 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
That's exactly why this has nothing to do with free speech & it shouldn't even be brought up. It has nothing to do with this situation.
posted by bleep at 10:34 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:34 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
The good news is that Virginia’s Attorney general Mark Herring is getting invoked and it looks like there will be a prosecution shortly. The bad news is the election is coming up in under a month and Democrats are not turning out in sufficient numbers to prevent this from being a nail biter where the proTrump Republicans take over. Arghhgb
posted by interogative mood at 10:38 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:38 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Mean speech is free. In many places, hate speech directed at oppressed groups or regarding specific issues is a crime, and should be. There's always going to be some discussion about where the line gets drawn, but there should be a line. It's usually legal to point cameras, though it's really skeevy and hostile, clearly the intent here.
I would bet money that this area has regulations against noise, harassment, malicious mischief, and being a nuisance, and the police, DA, town are being gutless because of embedded racism that they cannot perceive in themselves. That being how racism works. Noise that shakes a house is almost always covered by regulations.
If there's a gofundme, I'm in.
1. Measure volume. Direct equal volume rap from very woke Black rappers directly back. Strobe lights, too.
2. Volunteers from all over agree to go park in front of the neighbors with multiple cameras pointed at their house. Encourage Black volunteers.
3. All over Virginia Beach, Black homes point cameras, strobe lights, rap music at white neighbors' homes in exactly this way.
VA Beach city management would act swiftly.
posted by theora55 at 11:02 AM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
I would bet money that this area has regulations against noise, harassment, malicious mischief, and being a nuisance, and the police, DA, town are being gutless because of embedded racism that they cannot perceive in themselves. That being how racism works. Noise that shakes a house is almost always covered by regulations.
If there's a gofundme, I'm in.
1. Measure volume. Direct equal volume rap from very woke Black rappers directly back. Strobe lights, too.
2. Volunteers from all over agree to go park in front of the neighbors with multiple cameras pointed at their house. Encourage Black volunteers.
3. All over Virginia Beach, Black homes point cameras, strobe lights, rap music at white neighbors' homes in exactly this way.
VA Beach city management would act swiftly.
posted by theora55 at 11:02 AM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
That the Black family has a military veteran mom and an active-duty military dad (Martinez: "I spent 11 years in the military. My husband is also in the military") seems to be getting no traction whatsoever, which is striking given the location:
Hampton Roads -- made up of the cities of Newport News, Hampton, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, and Chesapeake -- is the east coast epicenter of military activity. Along with a huge Navy footprint the region hosts major Air Force, Army, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard facilities. As a result the area is extremely "military friendly" in all respects.
(If social media correctly identified the criminal neighbor, the guy's late father served in the military, not the guy himself.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:03 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Hampton Roads -- made up of the cities of Newport News, Hampton, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, and Chesapeake -- is the east coast epicenter of military activity. Along with a huge Navy footprint the region hosts major Air Force, Army, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard facilities. As a result the area is extremely "military friendly" in all respects.
(If social media correctly identified the criminal neighbor, the guy's late father served in the military, not the guy himself.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:03 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Commonwealth of Virginia: "Hate crime" means (i) a criminal act committed against a person or his property with the specific intent of instilling fear or intimidation in the individual against whom the act is perpetrated because of race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin or that is committed for the purpose of restraining that person from exercising his rights under the Constitution or laws of the Commonwealth or of the United States; (ii) any illegal act directed against any persons or their property because of those persons' race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin; and (iii) all other incidents, as determined by law-enforcement authorities, intended to intimidate or harass any individual or group because of race, religion, gender, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, or ethnic or national origin."
One hopes the Commonwealth of Va. is preparing a case.
We could always go down and visit the statehouse with strobe lights, cameras and rap music. There's a lot of rap music that could educate legislators about racism.
posted by theora55 at 11:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
One hopes the Commonwealth of Va. is preparing a case.
We could always go down and visit the statehouse with strobe lights, cameras and rap music. There's a lot of rap music that could educate legislators about racism.
posted by theora55 at 11:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Would this happen to be the same Virginia Beach whose police (body cams off, natch) shot and killed Pharell’s cousin earlier this year, but then got upset when Pharrell decided he didn’t want to host a revenue-generating music festival there anymore?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
What the ever loving fiddlesticks, y'all.
Oh come on, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to remember that plenty of kinds of speech are already illegal, with agreement by everyone that they should be. Child porn was already brought up, and shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is a popular example, but even more obvious examples include:
"I am going to stab you." (assault)
"If you don't give me your money, I am going to stab you." (extortion)
"Let's make a plan to stab him." (conspiracy)
posted by agentofselection at 12:00 PM on October 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
Oh come on, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to remember that plenty of kinds of speech are already illegal, with agreement by everyone that they should be. Child porn was already brought up, and shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is a popular example, but even more obvious examples include:
"I am going to stab you." (assault)
"If you don't give me your money, I am going to stab you." (extortion)
"Let's make a plan to stab him." (conspiracy)
posted by agentofselection at 12:00 PM on October 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm not an absolutist. My comment was about throwing out what protections we do have. Yes, the world is imperfect -- but the alternative timeline where we haven't had the -- I admit problematic -- free speech protections that we do have is not better.
There have been really important mini-revolutions that started, and travesties that were prevented, because of information getting out that people in power really would have preferred to ignore.
posted by amtho at 12:06 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
There have been really important mini-revolutions that started, and travesties that were prevented, because of information getting out that people in power really would have preferred to ignore.
posted by amtho at 12:06 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
amtho, do you somehow imagine that the rest of the world has the same laws around speech as the US? Canada doesn't, for example, and I'm not sure we're some wasteland of censorship or something.
posted by sagc at 12:09 PM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:09 PM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
Only a couple of people were advocating that, I think. If anything, I'm arguing that improvements should be made. The allure of simple solutions like "just abandon free speech protections altogether" is understandable, but simplicity is not how you make a good civilization.
I think most people here aren't really being that simplistic; the phrasing was alarming me, that's all.
posted by amtho at 12:10 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think most people here aren't really being that simplistic; the phrasing was alarming me, that's all.
posted by amtho at 12:10 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
A couple of people were advocating what? "Just abandon free speech protections altogether" isn’t something that anyone in this post has brought up aside from you, unless comments have been deleted.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:17 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:17 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
Ok I see where earlier in the thread where they were talking about freedom of speech but I still think it's a non sequitor. If someone thinks that they are actually the person who's losing rights here when theyre not actually being harassed by their neighbors & government because of racism then I would gently point out they are incorrect.
posted by bleep at 12:29 PM on October 7, 2021
posted by bleep at 12:29 PM on October 7, 2021
Would this happen to be the same Virginia Beach whose police (body cams off, natch) shot and killed Pharell’s cousin earlier this year
The very same.
Those who are not familiar with the area might want to look at the demographics, and some of its history.
The Virginia Beach Boardwalk area during the summer season is quite possibly one of the most heavily policed places in the world.
Anyway, I would not hold my breath for the solution to come from Virginia Beach PD. It will come from Richmond, if at all.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:55 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
The very same.
Those who are not familiar with the area might want to look at the demographics, and some of its history.
The Virginia Beach Boardwalk area during the summer season is quite possibly one of the most heavily policed places in the world.
Anyway, I would not hold my breath for the solution to come from Virginia Beach PD. It will come from Richmond, if at all.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:55 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
There have been really important mini-revolutions that started, and travesties that were prevented, because of information getting out that people in power really would have preferred to ignore.
What revolutions started or travesties were prevented by a speaker looping hate speech at innocent people?
posted by Ferreous at 1:05 PM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
What revolutions started or travesties were prevented by a speaker looping hate speech at innocent people?
posted by Ferreous at 1:05 PM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
> amtho: "I'm not an absolutist. My comment was about throwing out what protections we do have."
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you believe that pointing strobe lights and blaring racial slurs and monkey noises at one's African-American neighbours is, in fact, protected speech? I think I'd have to disagree with that.
posted by mhum at 1:24 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you believe that pointing strobe lights and blaring racial slurs and monkey noises at one's African-American neighbours is, in fact, protected speech? I think I'd have to disagree with that.
posted by mhum at 1:24 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
What? Why would you think I was asserting that? No... Geez people just... only the words I wrote, not whatever you imagine someone dumb would think.
There are 137 possible variations of opinion on this issue. Not two.
posted by amtho at 1:38 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
There are 137 possible variations of opinion on this issue. Not two.
posted by amtho at 1:38 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
What? Why would you think I was asserting that?
Because you hopped into this thread bemoaning how people were looking to toss away free speech when they were pointing out perhaps a bigot spewing abuse at a black family shouldn't be protected.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:56 PM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Because you hopped into this thread bemoaning how people were looking to toss away free speech when they were pointing out perhaps a bigot spewing abuse at a black family shouldn't be protected.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:56 PM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Although I hear you about the slippery slope (I disagree, I think that the slippery slope has been here a long time, see above posts breaking this down), I want to point out that this is a greyspace fallacy - on it's surface yes there are 137 opinions on the dude's actions, but they actually distill down into two impacts: enabling hate speech or shutting it down.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 1:58 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 1:58 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
> amtho: "What? Why would you think I was asserting that? "
Well, in the portion I quoted, you cautioned against "throwing out what protections we have". Via the Gricean maxim of relevance, I inferred that you believe that these protections that you caution against throwing out apply to the case under discussion (namely, this person harrassing his neighbors). I inferred from earlier comments in this thread that these protections are 1st Amendment-based free speech protections, which would only apply if this behavior were protected speech.
posted by mhum at 2:04 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Well, in the portion I quoted, you cautioned against "throwing out what protections we have". Via the Gricean maxim of relevance, I inferred that you believe that these protections that you caution against throwing out apply to the case under discussion (namely, this person harrassing his neighbors). I inferred from earlier comments in this thread that these protections are 1st Amendment-based free speech protections, which would only apply if this behavior were protected speech.
posted by mhum at 2:04 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Just a reminder that "slippery slope" refers to a logical fallacy...
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:33 PM on October 7, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:33 PM on October 7, 2021 [11 favorites]
If the harasser were able to use the first amendment to defend against criminal charges under existing Virginia laws then it would represent a tremendous reduction of our rights. We would need to amend the constitution to ensure that the courts were properly protecting those rights. However such a successful defense would also repeal every noise ordinance and many disorderly conduct ordinances; so it isn’t going to happen.
posted by interogative mood at 3:02 PM on October 7, 2021
posted by interogative mood at 3:02 PM on October 7, 2021
"I'm sorry, there's simply nothing we can do, what with him being my brother-in-law and all. Y'all get me in dutch with the wife!"
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:26 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:26 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
According to a Virginia Beach Facebook group I stumbled across the leading local theory isn’t racism by the police and city attorney but a desire to keep crime stats low. They tell whoever calls in misdemeanors like this that it is a “civil matter” and then never file a report. Then they market it as a safe place to go on vacation — look at those crime stats, etc.
posted by interogative mood at 5:00 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:00 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Which is just racism by another name. A black family isn't allowed to exist because the town needs to market itself to white tourists.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:03 PM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:03 PM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Actually I was referring only to the most extreme comment (or maybe two comments). I was in a bit of a pickle because I didn't want to repeat it/them.
posted by amtho at 5:23 PM on October 7, 2021
posted by amtho at 5:23 PM on October 7, 2021
Roland Martin had a segment on this with a local lawyer today It sounds like there is a lot that can be done to help the family out.
posted by interogative mood at 6:52 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 6:52 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Download the Epik breach and print out all his Gab posts for the newspaper.
posted by hypnogogue at 8:15 PM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by hypnogogue at 8:15 PM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected Margaret Sanger, but it didn't. Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected LGBT people gathering and publishing in the 1950s, but it didn't. Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected the BLM protesters, but it didn't.
To add to the: Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected Aaron Swartz and the Pirate Bay. If you want free speech absolutism, you can't have copyright.
Free speech absolutism **SHOUKD** have protected Chelsea Manning. If you have free speech absolutism, no document release or speech act can be treasonous.
Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected this guy. If you have free speech absolutism, saying "I will pay you to kill someone" cannot be illegal.
Nobody believes in absolute free speech. Anyone who thinks they do hasn't thought through the implications of it.
posted by Dysk at 8:25 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
To add to the: Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected Aaron Swartz and the Pirate Bay. If you want free speech absolutism, you can't have copyright.
Free speech absolutism **SHOUKD** have protected Chelsea Manning. If you have free speech absolutism, no document release or speech act can be treasonous.
Free speech absolutism **SHOULD** have protected this guy. If you have free speech absolutism, saying "I will pay you to kill someone" cannot be illegal.
Nobody believes in absolute free speech. Anyone who thinks they do hasn't thought through the implications of it.
posted by Dysk at 8:25 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
So I'm super curious to know if Eskildsen is a smart asshole or a stupid asshole. It could go either way, I think.
If Eskildsen is a smart asshole, he'll see the media picking up on this story. He'll hear the state AG talking shit about him on the news, which is never good. And if he just stopped his bullshit, he could probably avoid any penalty.
Eskildsen: "Sorry your honor, I didn't know I couldn't do that."
Court: "Well now you know! Get out of here!"
Eskildsen: "OK, I will sir. Thank you."
That would totally work if he just cut out this bullshit immediately. Courts love deference to police, and there's no concrete harm like a body or property damage with an easily calculated bill (just terrorism).
On the other hand! If Eskildsen is a stupid asshole, he might throw down with the AG, which should be entertaining to watch.
posted by ryanrs at 10:22 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
If Eskildsen is a smart asshole, he'll see the media picking up on this story. He'll hear the state AG talking shit about him on the news, which is never good. And if he just stopped his bullshit, he could probably avoid any penalty.
Eskildsen: "Sorry your honor, I didn't know I couldn't do that."
Court: "Well now you know! Get out of here!"
Eskildsen: "OK, I will sir. Thank you."
That would totally work if he just cut out this bullshit immediately. Courts love deference to police, and there's no concrete harm like a body or property damage with an easily calculated bill (just terrorism).
On the other hand! If Eskildsen is a stupid asshole, he might throw down with the AG, which should be entertaining to watch.
posted by ryanrs at 10:22 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
If the cops and judicial partners wanted to, they could arrest and hold the guy, then figure out the charges later. That's what they did to black children in a suburb of Nashville, where "two 12-year-olds were charged on negligible evidence with a crime that’s not an actual crime."
posted by rcraniac at 8:28 AM on October 8, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by rcraniac at 8:28 AM on October 8, 2021 [12 favorites]
rcraniac: That story is so goddamn infuriating. The sickness and cruelty at the heart of this country is so f'ing awful and grotesque it makes me want to cry and vomit and scream and burn everything down.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:55 AM on October 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:55 AM on October 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
He should be charged with terrorism. In addition to the music, the 8+ cameras is especially terrorizing. I have a neighbor who has about three cameras on his fence. Probably a lot more. The cumulative effect of feeling constantly monitored by him is upsetting and would be truly terrifying if he was targeting based on race, like this a-hole is. I don’t think I had an opinion on Virginia Beach prior to reading this, but now I certainly do.
posted by areaperson at 5:54 AM on October 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by areaperson at 5:54 AM on October 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile Virginia Beach school board is rushing to ban teaching critical race theory in its schools.
posted by interogative mood at 5:11 PM on October 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 5:11 PM on October 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by NoxAeternum at 10:57 PM on October 6, 2021 [108 favorites]