Our home and vaccinated land
October 7, 2021 7:40 AM Subscribe
Justin Trudeau announces federal vaccination mandate for travel, RCMP, & federal employees
Employment lawyers prepare for wave of terminations.
FYI, thus far, the new vaccine mandate only applies to domestic travellers.
Employment lawyers prepare for wave of terminations.
FYI, thus far, the new vaccine mandate only applies to domestic travellers.
Glad that this will likely apply to my federally-regulated workplace.
Not glad that my federally-regulated workplace didn't observe National Day for Truth and Reconciliation.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
Not glad that my federally-regulated workplace didn't observe National Day for Truth and Reconciliation.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
That’s okay, neither did the prime minister
posted by saturday_morning at 7:56 AM on October 7, 2021 [41 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 7:56 AM on October 7, 2021 [41 favorites]
If there's one thing to be happy about with the Liberal's being re-elected it's the continuation of their hard-line against vaccine hesitancy. It's a point of pride that Canada has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world.
Anyway, is there like a list somewhere of the reasons people have for being so resistant to getting vaccinated? Is it just social media conspiracies all the way down, or is there some deeper explanation? Because I really can't wrap my head around it. We all have crazy ideas about some things, but being so hung up on them that you're willing to give up your job for them is another level.
posted by Alex404 at 8:00 AM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
Anyway, is there like a list somewhere of the reasons people have for being so resistant to getting vaccinated? Is it just social media conspiracies all the way down, or is there some deeper explanation? Because I really can't wrap my head around it. We all have crazy ideas about some things, but being so hung up on them that you're willing to give up your job for them is another level.
posted by Alex404 at 8:00 AM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
Also: OH SNAP
posted by Alex404 at 8:02 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Alex404 at 8:02 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am an NDP gal all the way, but I too am okay with the hardline Liberal response. Either shape up and get vaccinated, or deal with the fact you are not owed shit if you refuse to be part of society. The world doesn't revolve around you, and you don't live in a vacuum. My only sympathy for those who aren't vaxxed are communities that have a very valid reason to not to trust white governments.
posted by Kitteh at 8:04 AM on October 7, 2021 [33 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:04 AM on October 7, 2021 [33 favorites]
And if this is the most you've ever been inconvenienced in your life, what a privileged little turd you are.
posted by Kitteh at 8:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [37 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:05 AM on October 7, 2021 [37 favorites]
My volunteer gig has ordered mandatory vaxxes for its staff. A handful of employees have chosen to retire rather than get the jab, which is surprising, but hey, their choice. As for anti-vaxxers who still wish to work without being jabbed, we set up a process involving regular testing, authoritative vax education, an HR process to identify valid refusal claims, and ultimately disciplinary proceedings.
That explicit policy statement from the OHRC doesn't leave an anti-vaxxer a lot of options.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:23 AM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
That explicit policy statement from the OHRC doesn't leave an anti-vaxxer a lot of options.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:23 AM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm a Toronto city employee, and as such my workplace is covered by a mandatory vaccination policy; the employer sent an email yesterday which stated that almost 90% of the workforce is fully vaccinated. The rest have until November 1st to provide proof of full vaccination or be suspended for six weeks without pay. If they haven't changed their minds and gotten vaccinated by December 13th they'll be fired. There are approximately 2000 people on the seniority list here, so if 10% of them aren't vaxxed that's about 200 holdouts. A few of them have used their work accounts to send Everybody emails ranting about the mandate, the most unhinged of which included this passage:
1.It is not my duty or anyone else's to keep you healthy--it is your duty
2. It is not my duty or anyone else's to keep you safe-- no one can
3. Coercing me or anyone to get the vaccine will not keep you safe-- that is a false sense of security
...
Remember we will all die one day, but it is your choice if you want to die honorably or dishonorably. Do not let a false sense of security and fear lead you. Stand up for what you know to be right.
A woman who I used to work with and who took early retirement rather than wear a mask, much less get vaccinated, sent an Everybody email like that five minutes before the end of her last shift ("working" from home) which went into great detail about how masks and vaccines are violations of various charters, up to and including the Nuremburg Code. At least one person in my department is not vaccinated yet, so it'll be interesting to see if they decide to light their career and pension (she's not old enough to qualify for early retirement) on fire over this. Anyway, I think these people may be surprised by how little support they're going to get from the rest of the workforce, given the 90% vaccination rate, and if they quit rather than jabbed it would be a net gain to the organization.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:24 AM on October 7, 2021 [35 favorites]
1.It is not my duty or anyone else's to keep you healthy--it is your duty
2. It is not my duty or anyone else's to keep you safe-- no one can
3. Coercing me or anyone to get the vaccine will not keep you safe-- that is a false sense of security
...
Remember we will all die one day, but it is your choice if you want to die honorably or dishonorably. Do not let a false sense of security and fear lead you. Stand up for what you know to be right.
A woman who I used to work with and who took early retirement rather than wear a mask, much less get vaccinated, sent an Everybody email like that five minutes before the end of her last shift ("working" from home) which went into great detail about how masks and vaccines are violations of various charters, up to and including the Nuremburg Code. At least one person in my department is not vaccinated yet, so it'll be interesting to see if they decide to light their career and pension (she's not old enough to qualify for early retirement) on fire over this. Anyway, I think these people may be surprised by how little support they're going to get from the rest of the workforce, given the 90% vaccination rate, and if they quit rather than jabbed it would be a net gain to the organization.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:24 AM on October 7, 2021 [35 favorites]
1.It is not my duty or anyone else's to keep you healthy--it is your duty
2. It is not my duty or anyone else's to keep you safe-- no one can
Interesting talk from a workplace with a Fire Department.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:28 AM on October 7, 2021 [41 favorites]
2. It is not my duty or anyone else's to keep you safe-- no one can
Interesting talk from a workplace with a Fire Department.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:28 AM on October 7, 2021 [41 favorites]
It really is past time to stop trying to convince anti-vaxxers and to start employing leverage. I don't see how we could make vaccination mandatory for the entire population (how would we even enforce that?) but we can make it mandatory for all government employees, all medical personnel, all teachers/professors and students, for plane, ship, or railway travel and for specific services like gym use or eating in a restaurant, and back up private corporations who choose to make it mandatory for their employees, and that should get us to herd immunity.
posted by orange swan at 8:33 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 8:33 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
While the Code prohibits discrimination based on creed, personal preferences or singular beliefs do not amount to a creed for the purposes of the Code.Preach it, OHRC!
posted by scruss at 8:38 AM on October 7, 2021 [27 favorites]
I am curious how the terminations will play out. My employer (a large municipality) has a vaccine mandate, but is allowing for rapid antigen tests as an alternative to vaccination within 72 hours (similar to provincial guidelines) at the employee's expense, and unpaid leave if they fail to do that. However, I have to wonder, how many shifts can you take unpaid leave for until you're effectively not reporting to work?
I think the calculus for both my employer and the provincial government is that people will get tired of paying for rapid tests and be worn down into getting the vaccine but not entirely forced. And I think that could be true of some people, who will see that cost add up quick. But it will still be slower than just requiring it from the get go.
posted by Kurichina at 8:39 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think the calculus for both my employer and the provincial government is that people will get tired of paying for rapid tests and be worn down into getting the vaccine but not entirely forced. And I think that could be true of some people, who will see that cost add up quick. But it will still be slower than just requiring it from the get go.
posted by Kurichina at 8:39 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
I spent most of my last five years in a community that had way more than its share of anti-vaxers. Which sucked. Because I really liked some of them. Ex-hippie types for the most part. One in particular comes to mind who was definitely NOT an ex-hippie. She was a home care worker who helped with my mom. And she was by the far best in that regard, ended up being my mom's last best friend.
She was anything but under-educated, had travelled extensively, lived in NYC through the worst part of its 1970s downtime. So tough as nails. The turning point for her was getting breast cancer while still comparatively young. She'd always been very careful about her health, what she allowed into her body. But she got it anyway. So when it came to figuring out what caused her cancer, she concluded it had to have been a vaccine she got a as a kid ... ...
And for whatever reason, there was no reasoning with her past that point.
Last I heard, she'd chosen to retire. I really feel for her. A wonderfully social person who must be feeling more and more cut off.
posted by philip-random at 8:39 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
She was anything but under-educated, had travelled extensively, lived in NYC through the worst part of its 1970s downtime. So tough as nails. The turning point for her was getting breast cancer while still comparatively young. She'd always been very careful about her health, what she allowed into her body. But she got it anyway. So when it came to figuring out what caused her cancer, she concluded it had to have been a vaccine she got a as a kid ... ...
And for whatever reason, there was no reasoning with her past that point.
Last I heard, she'd chosen to retire. I really feel for her. A wonderfully social person who must be feeling more and more cut off.
posted by philip-random at 8:39 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
I think we as a society in Canada are slowly, despite the best efforts of people like Doug Ford and Jason Kenney, moving past the carrot stage of dealing with anti-vaxxers and towards the stick.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:39 AM on October 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:39 AM on October 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'll add that there are scripts being circulated organizing workers to use union resources, legal/privacy resources, etc to resist vaccination through either delay or argument, and while those arguments are unlikey to succeed, they occupy a lot of out time and energy.
posted by Kurichina at 8:41 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Kurichina at 8:41 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Remember we will all die one day, but it is your choice if you want to die honorably or dishonorably. Do not let a false sense of security and fear lead you. Stand up for what you know to be right.
Yeah, you're right. We will all die one day. But I don't want an anti-vaxx asshole to be the reason I do.
(JFC, please stop using the Holocaust for a reference. That is horrible, disrespectful, and shows you understand nothing about the Holocaust.)
posted by Kitteh at 8:48 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Yeah, you're right. We will all die one day. But I don't want an anti-vaxx asshole to be the reason I do.
(JFC, please stop using the Holocaust for a reference. That is horrible, disrespectful, and shows you understand nothing about the Holocaust.)
posted by Kitteh at 8:48 AM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Spare a thought for the poor souls who have to wade through the requests for Human Rights Code exemptions, of which my employer says there are "a number."
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:49 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:49 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
"...moving past the carrot stage of dealing with anti-vaxxers and towards the stick."
Agreed. People are just so tired of the pandemic, everyone's patience has been exhausted, and anti-vaxxers are the only reason we're still in this.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:50 AM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
Agreed. People are just so tired of the pandemic, everyone's patience has been exhausted, and anti-vaxxers are the only reason we're still in this.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:50 AM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
Hello from Alberta. The more I learn about the anti-vaxx people the more I see connections with craziness I've always associated with militia groups south of the border. In conversation with close friends, I am hearing more and more about family connections that have just dug in their heels on this, it has become the defining focus of their resistance to a hated federal presence and a provincial gov't that has yielded too much.. yes, Kenney's UCP has taken "too firm a hand" in this.
I don't see how this blows over, I see the past years as inexorable progress towards a grim future that will eclipse all the bullshit we've already withstood during the worst of the pandemic. The bogus freedom/liberty language, the gun craziness, and latent animosity towards everything east of Saskatchewan is riding atop the toxic history of petro-state economics in decline. Buckle up, I'm thinking of when to move at this point.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:50 AM on October 7, 2021 [14 favorites]
I don't see how this blows over, I see the past years as inexorable progress towards a grim future that will eclipse all the bullshit we've already withstood during the worst of the pandemic. The bogus freedom/liberty language, the gun craziness, and latent animosity towards everything east of Saskatchewan is riding atop the toxic history of petro-state economics in decline. Buckle up, I'm thinking of when to move at this point.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:50 AM on October 7, 2021 [14 favorites]
One of my best friends showed me some Facebook posts a while ago by relatives of his who live in rural Ontario; they were ranting about how Alberta was the last "free" province in Canada and were musing about moving out there to escape the "tyranny" they were being subjected to here under Doug Ford's authoritarian regime. When things hit the fan in Albera and Kenney was forced to bring in Covid restrictions after all (a few days before the election...*chef's kiss*), they immediately started talking about moving to the U.S.. Of course, they're not going anywhere, but that's the mindset.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:56 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:56 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
A friend told me his anti-vax colleagues are discussing selling all their items, flying to Mexico and entering the US illegally via the southern border to escape the "vaccine tyranny". None of this makes sense but trying to enter illegally through the highly defended southern border when there's a long and lighly defended northern border is particularly mind-boggling.
posted by Kurichina at 8:59 AM on October 7, 2021 [46 favorites]
posted by Kurichina at 8:59 AM on October 7, 2021 [46 favorites]
I will have to shut up soon, but this exemplifies a type of Albertan: municipal election, small town north of Edmonton, and one of the mayoral candidates is throwing in for their second go at it. Never served in politics at any level, and touts the same line as the previous run at mayor: lower taxes, smaller government. Prominent PPC signs on the lawn during the federal election. So this person (works in the energy sector, surprise) refers to themselves as "an Albertan born in Ontario" and moved here about 10-12 years ago because of course. They're getting taxed to death obv., and can only afford the work truck, the nice truck, the Mercedes sports car, and the Harley (not kidding). No dependents. Not only are they running for mayor with almost zero understanding of municipal politics, they aren't a resident of the town much of the time (living at the gf's place, just out of town). Their property in town is for sale. Are you checking all the boxes? Keeping track? There is a level of willful ignorance, sense of entitlement, and blind hostility to gov't in Alberta that (I think) surpasses anywhere else in Canada. It disgusts me.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:08 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 9:08 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
his anti-vax colleagues are discussing selling all their items, flying to Mexico and entering the US illegally
Wow, those colleagues are just spectacularly stupid. Deeply, deeply, profoundly ignorant of the real world.
If they do that, they're gonna die. See if your friend can buy their stuff for pennies on the dollar, because they're too stupid to know the real value (or literal mortal cost) of anything, and if they try that they're not gonna be coming back.
posted by aramaic at 9:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Wow, those colleagues are just spectacularly stupid. Deeply, deeply, profoundly ignorant of the real world.
If they do that, they're gonna die. See if your friend can buy their stuff for pennies on the dollar, because they're too stupid to know the real value (or literal mortal cost) of anything, and if they try that they're not gonna be coming back.
posted by aramaic at 9:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
elkevelvet, being from out there, can i ask what town?
posted by PinkMoose at 9:22 AM on October 7, 2021
posted by PinkMoose at 9:22 AM on October 7, 2021
Ex-hippie types for the most part.
My one friend I suspect is anti-vax, I can't reach her. She believes she's following the science, but what she comes up with is so highly edited and selective -- she takes the smallest and most irrelevant points and magnifies them into something else. And what to do? Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.
She's an ex-hippie type. Super careful about what goes into her body, and latching on to every nutrition theory of the week. Also doesn't believe in the Moon landings. It was all kinda cute and silly and easily dismissed when her more nonsensical beliefs affect just her, but now...
I don't know where to go with her.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:26 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
My one friend I suspect is anti-vax, I can't reach her. She believes she's following the science, but what she comes up with is so highly edited and selective -- she takes the smallest and most irrelevant points and magnifies them into something else. And what to do? Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.
She's an ex-hippie type. Super careful about what goes into her body, and latching on to every nutrition theory of the week. Also doesn't believe in the Moon landings. It was all kinda cute and silly and easily dismissed when her more nonsensical beliefs affect just her, but now...
I don't know where to go with her.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:26 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
I wish the gov't would take away their health care. I doubt these idiots would fuck around once they fount out what it costs.
posted by dobbs at 9:40 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by dobbs at 9:40 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Before the pandemic, my aforementioned coworker was also into a lot of things which seemed a bit wacky but not problematic; reincarnation, crystals, UFOs (she didn't like Trump, but when he got elected she said one good thing he would do would be to "reveal the truth" about aliens), etc..
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:42 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:42 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Cigs are crazy expensive here to claw back some of the costs of heath care for morons who smoke. It's too bad there's nothing similar one could do with the vax. Jack up their provincial premium, maybe? From a couple hundred bucks to, like, much more.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:12 AM on October 7, 2021
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:12 AM on October 7, 2021
Get to a red state. Now.
These sorts of people are lost, and they're not coming back.
I don't think the government should take away anyone's health care per se, but I wouldn't have a problem if anti-vaxxers were not prioritized over other people when they wind up in the hospital with Covid. But instead they're the ones taking up ICU beds while other people die.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:16 AM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
These sorts of people are lost, and they're not coming back.
I don't think the government should take away anyone's health care per se, but I wouldn't have a problem if anti-vaxxers were not prioritized over other people when they wind up in the hospital with Covid. But instead they're the ones taking up ICU beds while other people die.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:16 AM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
elkevelvet: I am hearing more and more about family connections that have just dug in their heels on this, it has become the defining focus of their resistance to a hated federal presence and a provincial gov't that has yielded too much
A new NEP, perhaps?
posted by clawsoon at 10:24 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
A new NEP, perhaps?
posted by clawsoon at 10:24 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Some important things to note: federal workers are not regulated under provincial codes, like the OHRC, but under the Canada Labour Code Part II. The OHRC guideline above is not considered applicable to federal employees, even those resident in Ontario.
Federal workers in Canada do not have access to the courts for redress against the employer/Government of Canada. So no court cases are allowed to come of this. Federal employment legislation is well tested in court and is very unlikely to be changed because of this measure. In effect, federal public servants mostly have access to employment rights through collective bargaining agreements and the allowed dispute mechanisms, grievances, under federal law. The arbitration panels are empowered to handle everything up to and including Charter challenges. Again, this has been tested at the Superior and Supreme Court levels.
The grievance system takes 5-10 years to resolve and involves lots of required hearings and mediation. Anti-vaxxers are going to find the appeal process long and exhaustive.
In the mean time, if they choose not to file the required attestation, they will be on unpaid leave and without access to EI. They can find other work, but if they want to maintain their standing with the government, they must clear any employment activity with their ethics commissioner. Not doing so is a firing offence (I know people who have been fired for this).
They might also chose to lie on their attestation. Managers are being told that standards for audits and requiring proof of attestation are definitely coming. Attestations will be checked, likely in large numbers. Lying on an attestation is a disciplinary offence and could (likely) result in termination as well.
There are no exceptions being made for employees currently working from home. If an employee works at home, they are considered to be at the workplace in their own home. As such they must complete the attestation of vaccination or seek an exemption.
Reportedly, there were proposals at Treasury Board involving testing for those who did not vaccinate by choice (as opposed to one of the allowed exceptions). The PMO reportedly declined to use those options and decided on the present policy instead.
They're really done playing.
posted by bonehead at 10:26 AM on October 7, 2021 [33 favorites]
Federal workers in Canada do not have access to the courts for redress against the employer/Government of Canada. So no court cases are allowed to come of this. Federal employment legislation is well tested in court and is very unlikely to be changed because of this measure. In effect, federal public servants mostly have access to employment rights through collective bargaining agreements and the allowed dispute mechanisms, grievances, under federal law. The arbitration panels are empowered to handle everything up to and including Charter challenges. Again, this has been tested at the Superior and Supreme Court levels.
The grievance system takes 5-10 years to resolve and involves lots of required hearings and mediation. Anti-vaxxers are going to find the appeal process long and exhaustive.
In the mean time, if they choose not to file the required attestation, they will be on unpaid leave and without access to EI. They can find other work, but if they want to maintain their standing with the government, they must clear any employment activity with their ethics commissioner. Not doing so is a firing offence (I know people who have been fired for this).
They might also chose to lie on their attestation. Managers are being told that standards for audits and requiring proof of attestation are definitely coming. Attestations will be checked, likely in large numbers. Lying on an attestation is a disciplinary offence and could (likely) result in termination as well.
There are no exceptions being made for employees currently working from home. If an employee works at home, they are considered to be at the workplace in their own home. As such they must complete the attestation of vaccination or seek an exemption.
Reportedly, there were proposals at Treasury Board involving testing for those who did not vaccinate by choice (as opposed to one of the allowed exceptions). The PMO reportedly declined to use those options and decided on the present policy instead.
They're really done playing.
posted by bonehead at 10:26 AM on October 7, 2021 [33 favorites]
I know this is an Ontario regulation not a federal one, but has anybody heard about this? It popped up in my LinkedIn feed, but beyond that, I can't see that it has gotten any attention.
posted by sardonyx at 10:28 AM on October 7, 2021
posted by sardonyx at 10:28 AM on October 7, 2021
If this goes anything New York's recent vaccine mandates, there will be a lot of bitching and grand declarations of defiance up to the deadline followed by like 95% compliance.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:35 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:35 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
Have to say I would be very shocked to receive a memento mori email at work.
I'm glad that federally regulated workplaces and interprovincial travel is covered. (Sort of curious what happens for kids who are 12 and less than a month old -- they can't be fully vaccinated yet.) I'd love education to be covered here, but I can't imagine it. I suppose if the health care worker mandate goes well, maybe. Would also be nice to have a mandate for law enforcement.
posted by jeather at 10:40 AM on October 7, 2021
I'm glad that federally regulated workplaces and interprovincial travel is covered. (Sort of curious what happens for kids who are 12 and less than a month old -- they can't be fully vaccinated yet.) I'd love education to be covered here, but I can't imagine it. I suppose if the health care worker mandate goes well, maybe. Would also be nice to have a mandate for law enforcement.
posted by jeather at 10:40 AM on October 7, 2021
his anti-vax colleagues are discussing selling all their items, flying to Mexico and entering the US illegally
This is deeply ironic considering a lot of the anti-lockdown US folks blame the "illegals" for crossing over the border and spreading the disease, since "good" Americans can't get sick.
posted by meowzilla at 10:53 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
This is deeply ironic considering a lot of the anti-lockdown US folks blame the "illegals" for crossing over the border and spreading the disease, since "good" Americans can't get sick.
posted by meowzilla at 10:53 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
I work for the federal government as an employee and for the most part my public servant colleagues are growing very weary of the anti-vaxxers in our midst. There are people questioning whether they can really be fired for not getting vaxxed (it is notoriously difficult to get fired from the federal government), and the overwhelming response is "See ya!" and thoughts that if you haven't gotten the vaccine you don't have the critical thinking skills to work for the government.
In effect, federal public servants mostly have access to employment rights through collective bargaining agreements and the allowed dispute mechanisms, grievances, under federal law.
And it should be noted that the unions support the spirit of the mandate. They have some issues with the lack of consultation, and they will have to assist with grievances regardless, but they key part they support.
posted by aclevername at 10:57 AM on October 7, 2021 [14 favorites]
In effect, federal public servants mostly have access to employment rights through collective bargaining agreements and the allowed dispute mechanisms, grievances, under federal law.
And it should be noted that the unions support the spirit of the mandate. They have some issues with the lack of consultation, and they will have to assist with grievances regardless, but they key part they support.
posted by aclevername at 10:57 AM on October 7, 2021 [14 favorites]
I was almost excited for a moment, but it looks like my federally-regulated industry, road transportation, is not part of the vaccination mandate :(
posted by rodlymight at 11:04 AM on October 7, 2021
posted by rodlymight at 11:04 AM on October 7, 2021
Again, you can fuck around and find out.
Find out your ass doesn't have a job anymore.
posted by Kitteh at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Find out your ass doesn't have a job anymore.
posted by Kitteh at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
And it should be noted that the unions support the spirit of the mandate.
My understanding is that a few of the unions that were even a little hesitant caught holy heck from their membership. "Corrections" and "clarifications" were offered pretty quickly afterwards.
In large part this is going to work because the rank and file is overwhelmingly in favor of this as a protective and safety measure.
posted by bonehead at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
My understanding is that a few of the unions that were even a little hesitant caught holy heck from their membership. "Corrections" and "clarifications" were offered pretty quickly afterwards.
In large part this is going to work because the rank and file is overwhelmingly in favor of this as a protective and safety measure.
posted by bonehead at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
People are just so tired of the pandemic, everyone's patience has been exhausted, and anti-vaxxers are the only reason we're still in this.
In a slightly different world than this, we all stayed home and binged Netflix for two weeks in the last half of March 2020, and by June the world was back to the way it was ahead of time. The only lasting effect of C19 was a small but noticeable spike in births around the end of the year.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:14 AM on October 7, 2021 [19 favorites]
In a slightly different world than this, we all stayed home and binged Netflix for two weeks in the last half of March 2020, and by June the world was back to the way it was ahead of time. The only lasting effect of C19 was a small but noticeable spike in births around the end of the year.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:14 AM on October 7, 2021 [19 favorites]
This is deeply ironic considering a lot of the anti-lockdown US folks blame the "illegals" for crossing over the border and spreading the disease, since "good" Americans can't get sick.
I think the Venn circle overlaps quite a bit with those who think it is extremely easy to cross that border illegally.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:15 AM on October 7, 2021 [11 favorites]
I think the Venn circle overlaps quite a bit with those who think it is extremely easy to cross that border illegally.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:15 AM on October 7, 2021 [11 favorites]
I have mentioned this before--especially during the Bush and Trump years--it is not easy to emigrate. It is expensive, time-consuming, and the red tape is PITA. You can't just show up at the border and go, "Well, I hate my government and I live here now."
Also: you fuckfaces hate this mandate, but holy shit, the first time you get sick with anything in the US, welcome to a potential life of medical debt.
posted by Kitteh at 11:19 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
Also: you fuckfaces hate this mandate, but holy shit, the first time you get sick with anything in the US, welcome to a potential life of medical debt.
posted by Kitteh at 11:19 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
In a slightly different world than this, we all stayed home and binged Netflix for two weeks in the last half of March 2020, and by June the world was back to the way it was ahead of time.
China's lockdown in February 2020 was much harder and longer than this, and they are not back to normal. This was never going to be easy to deal with: even the original COVID strain was extremely hard to contain, and every country that locked down and reopened got COVID reintroduced and had to lock down again. A short sharp lockdown was never going to solve the problem (though it would have helped).
posted by BungaDunga at 11:24 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
China's lockdown in February 2020 was much harder and longer than this, and they are not back to normal. This was never going to be easy to deal with: even the original COVID strain was extremely hard to contain, and every country that locked down and reopened got COVID reintroduced and had to lock down again. A short sharp lockdown was never going to solve the problem (though it would have helped).
posted by BungaDunga at 11:24 AM on October 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
"Corrections" and "clarifications" were offered pretty quickly afterwards.
To wit: Andrea Horwath. Boy, she did not read the room.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:24 AM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
To wit: Andrea Horwath. Boy, she did not read the room.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:24 AM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
In a slightly different world than this, we all stayed home and binged Netflix for two weeks in the last half of March 2020, and by June the world was back to the way it was ahead of time
People in office jobs often don't realize that most of the world's jobs aren't office jobs.
posted by mhoye at 11:26 AM on October 7, 2021 [35 favorites]
People in office jobs often don't realize that most of the world's jobs aren't office jobs.
posted by mhoye at 11:26 AM on October 7, 2021 [35 favorites]
There's some low-level attempting here (US, federal workplace) to organize a sick-out or strike in protest of the mandate. That would be a grave mistake, given 5 USC 7311, particularly paragraph (3)*
You mean you're handing me a choice between firing you right now for striking, or going through this long song and dance over making you get a vaccine? I'll take option A, please.
* and the smart union wouldn't touch this one with a ten-foot pole because 5 USC 7120 paragraph (f)
posted by ctmf at 11:36 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
You mean you're handing me a choice between firing you right now for striking, or going through this long song and dance over making you get a vaccine? I'll take option A, please.
* and the smart union wouldn't touch this one with a ten-foot pole because 5 USC 7120 paragraph (f)
posted by ctmf at 11:36 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'd love education to be covered here, but I can't imagine it. I suppose if the health care worker mandate goes well, maybe. Would also be nice to have a mandate for law enforcement.
Education is provincial jurisdiction. The federal government doesn't have authority there. The provincial governments do, and at least Ontario has a mandate for education workers.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:50 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Education is provincial jurisdiction. The federal government doesn't have authority there. The provincial governments do, and at least Ontario has a mandate for education workers.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:50 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
My union has been sending out communications on this issue, and while they've said that they'll offer union support to people who are unreasonably denied a necessary accommodation, I really wish they'd come out with a stronger statement in support of people actually getting goddamned vaccinated.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:52 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 11:52 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Despite being nearly 2 months behind the US in rolling out the vaccine, Canada's vaccination totals are about 20% higher than the US adjusted for population.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:55 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Education is provincial jurisdiction.
Yes, I know. So is health care, where in Quebec there is indeed a mandate as I mentioned; I do not imagine they will enact an education one, nor a law enforcement one (for provincial or municipal law enforcement, the RCMP being under federal jurisdiction).
posted by jeather at 12:13 PM on October 7, 2021
Yes, I know. So is health care, where in Quebec there is indeed a mandate as I mentioned; I do not imagine they will enact an education one, nor a law enforcement one (for provincial or municipal law enforcement, the RCMP being under federal jurisdiction).
posted by jeather at 12:13 PM on October 7, 2021
bonehead: The grievance system takes 5-10 years to resolve and involves lots of required hearings and mediation. Anti-vaxxers are going to find the appeal process long and exhaustive.
Heh. One thing I've observed is that there are many, many Canadians who are under the misapprehension that employment-related litigation, whether it's in a unionized context or not, is anything other than a long, tiring, and expensive (if you're not represented by a union, the meter is running and you're on the hook even if you're awarded your costs years down the line) process, whether it's at the level of labour arbitration, the CHRT, a provincial human rights tribunal, or provincial or federal courts.
It's not like you can yell "I'm gonna sue you!" and Saul Goodman swoops in with heroic courtroom theatrics and saves the day.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:16 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
Heh. One thing I've observed is that there are many, many Canadians who are under the misapprehension that employment-related litigation, whether it's in a unionized context or not, is anything other than a long, tiring, and expensive (if you're not represented by a union, the meter is running and you're on the hook even if you're awarded your costs years down the line) process, whether it's at the level of labour arbitration, the CHRT, a provincial human rights tribunal, or provincial or federal courts.
It's not like you can yell "I'm gonna sue you!" and Saul Goodman swoops in with heroic courtroom theatrics and saves the day.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:16 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
It doesn't really matter where we are in relation to other countries. Currently only 82% of eligible Canadians (12+) are fully vaccinated. If people with actual medical exemptions are 1 in 100,000 then really there's nothing stopping that number from being 100% or very close to it. Over the summer the vaccination numbers were great as the willing were lining up and searching for shots wherever they could get them. I was fine with the hesitant waiting back then because other people were getting the shots but now that we have more available vaccine than people lining up to take them we need to force everyone to get vaccinated and then start sending our vaccine shipments to other countries with short/non-existent supplies.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:19 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:19 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
A federal mandate is a predictably authoritarian response to a structural problem that should've been dealt with years ago; these reactionaries didn't arise out of a vacuum as much as angry Liberals want to imagine it but due to filter bubbles and a classist society that the Canadian state (and the US to a much greater extent, and both relative to countries like Germany) have been enabling. I think it is narrow, ahistorical, and anti-relationship (meaning individualist) to frame it as individual Albertans being uncritical or stupid or selfish etc., in fact that is exactly the framing that functions to justify the use of mandates: an individual solution to a structural problem. But of course Liberals and even many in the NDP lack the vision to understand this, that a state-based mandate is indeed needed because our society was already fractured which the state has been doing nothing about. One can only extrapolate from this the state's responses to all future crises.
posted by polymodus at 12:26 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 12:26 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Education is provincial jurisdiction. The federal government doesn't have authority there. The provincial governments do, and at least Ontario has a mandate for education workers.
Which I suspect is part of why Ontario is so far managing to keep a lid on the fourth wave, and BC (where I am) seems content to plateau at 700-800 cases a day for the foreseeable future.
Just like Canadians vis-a-vis Americans, British Columbians seem to derive much of their self-esteem from not being Albertans.
posted by Beardman at 12:28 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Which I suspect is part of why Ontario is so far managing to keep a lid on the fourth wave, and BC (where I am) seems content to plateau at 700-800 cases a day for the foreseeable future.
Just like Canadians vis-a-vis Americans, British Columbians seem to derive much of their self-esteem from not being Albertans.
posted by Beardman at 12:28 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
But of course Liberals and even many in the NDP lack the vision to understand this, that a state-based mandate is indeed needed because our society was already fractured.
I don't think anyone in Canada is under the illusion that 'Canadian society' is somehow homogenous, or even exists in a real, quantifiable way.
posted by jordantwodelta at 12:36 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't think anyone in Canada is under the illusion that 'Canadian society' is somehow homogenous, or even exists in a real, quantifiable way.
posted by jordantwodelta at 12:36 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
When they announced the vaccine passports here in Ontario, my clinic was inundated with phone calls from patients who wanted medical exemptions. Public Health hadn't released the criteria yet, and of course, given the proximity to US media here, many assumed it was apples to apples. But when Public Health released the two valid medical exemptions, there was a lot of grumbling. I wanted to joke that I am sure they could probably find the Ontario equivalent to Dr Nick and Hollywood Upstairs Medical School if they were desperate.
posted by Kitteh at 12:38 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:38 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
In a slightly different world than this, we all stayed home and binged Netflix for two weeks in the last half of March 2020
We...kind of did? Meat packing plants and Amazon and grocery stores excepted but the very first stage of the very first lockdown in Ontario was pretty firm. Transit. Sadly, the week before Doug Ford told everyone going on March Break to go travel and have a good time.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:39 PM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
We...kind of did? Meat packing plants and Amazon and grocery stores excepted but the very first stage of the very first lockdown in Ontario was pretty firm. Transit. Sadly, the week before Doug Ford told everyone going on March Break to go travel and have a good time.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:39 PM on October 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
I don't think anyone in Canada is under the illusion that 'Canadian society' is somehow homogenous, or even exists in a real, quantifiable way.
I am under the illusion that it exists. What are you on about?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:47 PM on October 7, 2021
I am under the illusion that it exists. What are you on about?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:47 PM on October 7, 2021
What makes it homogenous, though? It's a polity composed up of people living in Canada, and that's about all that's inherently shared.
posted by sagc at 12:49 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 12:49 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Currently only 82% of eligible Canadians (12+) are fully vaccinated.
On this point honestly, it's going to keep spreading as long as kids are unvaccinated. We PRETEND that they don't spread it, when it's really that they are asymptomatic so we don't ever test them.
Ontario schools went back September 10. People have been congratulating themselves, but it's not like on Day One ALL the kids have symptomatic Covid to pass on. Each week you miss a few, miss a few, miss a few -- and their parents hopefully are vaccinated so there's some stoppage -- but a few start kicking off small fires among the unvaccinated/breakthrough people and I predict Ontario's numbers will jump in about 3-4 more weeks.
In Ontario here's how testing goes on the ground (we have our own rapid tests at work so we bypass this system.)
1. If you have a runny nose and a sore throat, the drugstores classify you as symptomatic and you cannot get a rapid test if you are symptomatic. You also cannot get a rapid test if you are a confirmed contact, because they won't let you in the store. (My staff have ended up testing this system and it holds. We now have our own rapid testing set up.)
2. If you go to book a PCR test (2-4 days' wait) you have to clear the following two bars. #1 is:
You should only go for testing at an Assessment Centre if you are:
Showing COVID-19 symptoms (see list of symptoms)
Have been exposed to a confirmed case of the virus, as informed by your public health unit or exposure notification through the COVID Alert app
A resident or work in a setting that has a COVID-19 outbreak, as identified and informed by your local public health unit
Eligible for testing as part of a targeted testing initiative directed by the Ministry of Health or the Ministry of Long-Term Care
COVID symptom list is:
Call 911 if you are experiencing any of the following symptoms:
severe difficulty breathing (struggling for each breath, can only speak in single words)
severe chest pain (constant tightness or crushing sensation)
feeling confused or unsure of where you are
losing consciousness
The most common symptoms of COVID-19covid 19 include:
fever (a temperature of 37.8 degrees Celsius or higher) and/or chills
cough, including a barking cough or croup (continuous, more than usual, making a whistling noise when breathing)
shortness of breath (out of breath, unable to breathe deeply)
decrease or loss of taste or smell
for children under 18 years of age: nausea, vomiting and/or diarrhea
for adults over 18 years of age: muscle aches, joint pain and/or extreme tiredness
So, with your runny nose and sore throat you now have three choices:
1. Find someone with rapid tests outside of the medical system.
2. Lie either at the rapid test site or the big assessment centre.
3. Tell people you have allergies and get on with your life.
A lot of people are going with #3, I would guess.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:52 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
On this point honestly, it's going to keep spreading as long as kids are unvaccinated. We PRETEND that they don't spread it, when it's really that they are asymptomatic so we don't ever test them.
Ontario schools went back September 10. People have been congratulating themselves, but it's not like on Day One ALL the kids have symptomatic Covid to pass on. Each week you miss a few, miss a few, miss a few -- and their parents hopefully are vaccinated so there's some stoppage -- but a few start kicking off small fires among the unvaccinated/breakthrough people and I predict Ontario's numbers will jump in about 3-4 more weeks.
In Ontario here's how testing goes on the ground (we have our own rapid tests at work so we bypass this system.)
1. If you have a runny nose and a sore throat, the drugstores classify you as symptomatic and you cannot get a rapid test if you are symptomatic. You also cannot get a rapid test if you are a confirmed contact, because they won't let you in the store. (My staff have ended up testing this system and it holds. We now have our own rapid testing set up.)
2. If you go to book a PCR test (2-4 days' wait) you have to clear the following two bars. #1 is:
You should only go for testing at an Assessment Centre if you are:
Showing COVID-19 symptoms (see list of symptoms)
Have been exposed to a confirmed case of the virus, as informed by your public health unit or exposure notification through the COVID Alert app
A resident or work in a setting that has a COVID-19 outbreak, as identified and informed by your local public health unit
Eligible for testing as part of a targeted testing initiative directed by the Ministry of Health or the Ministry of Long-Term Care
COVID symptom list is:
Call 911 if you are experiencing any of the following symptoms:
severe difficulty breathing (struggling for each breath, can only speak in single words)
severe chest pain (constant tightness or crushing sensation)
feeling confused or unsure of where you are
losing consciousness
The most common symptoms of COVID-19covid 19 include:
fever (a temperature of 37.8 degrees Celsius or higher) and/or chills
cough, including a barking cough or croup (continuous, more than usual, making a whistling noise when breathing)
shortness of breath (out of breath, unable to breathe deeply)
decrease or loss of taste or smell
for children under 18 years of age: nausea, vomiting and/or diarrhea
for adults over 18 years of age: muscle aches, joint pain and/or extreme tiredness
So, with your runny nose and sore throat you now have three choices:
1. Find someone with rapid tests outside of the medical system.
2. Lie either at the rapid test site or the big assessment centre.
3. Tell people you have allergies and get on with your life.
A lot of people are going with #3, I would guess.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:52 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
We have broad agreement on a number of things. I don't want to derail the thread too much, but we have incredible stability in our government and institutions. You only get that when people largely agree and get along.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:52 PM on October 7, 2021
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:52 PM on October 7, 2021
Also: you fuckfaces hate this mandate, but holy shit, the first time you get sick with anything in the US, welcome to a potential life of medical debt.
Freedom is being charged far more by the private sector than you would be by the government for services. Any true patriot would be proud to receive a six-figure medical bill for a two-day hospital stay.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:57 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
Freedom is being charged far more by the private sector than you would be by the government for services. Any true patriot would be proud to receive a six-figure medical bill for a two-day hospital stay.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:57 PM on October 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
As an American federal employee, I am interested to see if the rollout of this will be cleaner and more decisive than the mess we have. Because my agency declared a mandate months ago, and it was only TODAY that I received an email explaining what I needed to do to tell my boss I'm vaxxed. Still have no goddamn clue how I am supposed to track my employees who aren't, because no one will tell us what the procedure is, only that there are Serious Repercussions for not getting vaccinated. Every single effort to get something on paper is being fought tooth and nail by people unable to recognize that more vaccinations means an end to this pandemic.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:57 PM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by caution live frogs at 12:57 PM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
I predict Ontario's numbers will jump in about 3-4 more weeks.
We aren't that far out from vaccines being approved for 5-11 year-olds. It won't happen quick enough to avoid the jump you're predicting, so maybe the kids will all go back to virtual for a couple of weeks if the numbers do jump, but once all school-aged kids can be vaccinated that will really cut down on the spread. And schools require other vaccinations to attend right now so mandating vaccines for students to continue attending isn't novel.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:08 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
We aren't that far out from vaccines being approved for 5-11 year-olds. It won't happen quick enough to avoid the jump you're predicting, so maybe the kids will all go back to virtual for a couple of weeks if the numbers do jump, but once all school-aged kids can be vaccinated that will really cut down on the spread. And schools require other vaccinations to attend right now so mandating vaccines for students to continue attending isn't novel.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:08 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Our condo board just send around a memo saying as of Nov 1 all condo employees must be vaxxed, all contractors must be vaxxed or have proof of rapid antigent testing <48h before coming on site, and most importantly anyone wanting to use the amenities (gym, pool, etc) must also provide proof of vax. And still wear masks.
I'm happy with this. And given the dozen pages of legalese in the document providing details, I'm guessing a lot of other boards are going to do the same thing, having pooled their resources to come up with a pretty tight set of guidelines.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:26 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm happy with this. And given the dozen pages of legalese in the document providing details, I'm guessing a lot of other boards are going to do the same thing, having pooled their resources to come up with a pretty tight set of guidelines.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:26 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
My husband works for Queen's and of course, they require employees and students to be vaccinated--the last day for students to be fully vaxxed to continue classes in October 15th, IIRC--and you can bet your sweet bippy they made sure their legalese is airtight. If you haven't verified your vaccination status by then, you cannot attend classes and no online classes are being offered, and your opportunity to be refunded passed in late September. So if you ain't vaxxed by then, you forfeit your tuition.
posted by Kitteh at 1:48 PM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 1:48 PM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
As an American federal employee, I am interested to see if the rollout of this will be cleaner and more decisive than the mess we have.
Most of my PS colleagues got an email yesterday within a couple hours of the mandate announcement, with a link to an app where you attest that you are fully vaccinated and instructions and details. You click a box and submit to your manager. No proof is required but they can audit and ask for it at any time. If you do not attest in the app by October 29th you will be put on leave without pay as soon as November 15th. You cannot claim EI, either.
Of course when they rolled out the app yesterday it immediately crashed and was down all day. But I was able to access it this morning.
posted by aclevername at 1:50 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Most of my PS colleagues got an email yesterday within a couple hours of the mandate announcement, with a link to an app where you attest that you are fully vaccinated and instructions and details. You click a box and submit to your manager. No proof is required but they can audit and ask for it at any time. If you do not attest in the app by October 29th you will be put on leave without pay as soon as November 15th. You cannot claim EI, either.
Of course when they rolled out the app yesterday it immediately crashed and was down all day. But I was able to access it this morning.
posted by aclevername at 1:50 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
I think it is narrow, ahistorical, and anti-relationship (meaning individualist) to frame it as individual Albertans being uncritical or stupid or selfish etc.
I'm not sure how to unpack your entire comment, but I'm 'framing' this in terms of rural Alberta and the people I encounter and the behaviours I witness. We can talk bubbles and classism, missed opportunities re: federal/provincial relations, but get real. We also need to get past a pandemic. You want ahistorical? That would also involve ignoring some key features as to how Alberta was settled, the ascendance of the oil economy, and so on. Again, always good to prioritize.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:50 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure how to unpack your entire comment, but I'm 'framing' this in terms of rural Alberta and the people I encounter and the behaviours I witness. We can talk bubbles and classism, missed opportunities re: federal/provincial relations, but get real. We also need to get past a pandemic. You want ahistorical? That would also involve ignoring some key features as to how Alberta was settled, the ascendance of the oil economy, and so on. Again, always good to prioritize.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:50 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
"I am under the illusion that it exists. What are you on about?"
As someone who lives in Quebec, what do I have in common with someone living in BC, or Newfoundland? Very little, in any practical or social sense—and I say that as an angolophone Quebecker. There's no 'shared' Canadian experience.
What makes it homogenous, though? It's a polity composed up of people living in Canada, and that's about all that's inherently shared.
Exactly this. I am grateful that the political entity of Canada exists, as it affords me many comforts, advantages, and safeties, but to extend that political entity into some kind of cohesive society isn't borne out by either the country's history or its present reality. That's why the comment about a 'fractured society' surprised me, because defining what 'Canadian society' actually is would seem to be an impossible mission.
posted by jordantwodelta at 2:05 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
As someone who lives in Quebec, what do I have in common with someone living in BC, or Newfoundland? Very little, in any practical or social sense—and I say that as an angolophone Quebecker. There's no 'shared' Canadian experience.
What makes it homogenous, though? It's a polity composed up of people living in Canada, and that's about all that's inherently shared.
Exactly this. I am grateful that the political entity of Canada exists, as it affords me many comforts, advantages, and safeties, but to extend that political entity into some kind of cohesive society isn't borne out by either the country's history or its present reality. That's why the comment about a 'fractured society' surprised me, because defining what 'Canadian society' actually is would seem to be an impossible mission.
posted by jordantwodelta at 2:05 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
As someone who lives in Quebec, what do I have in common with someone living in BC, or Newfoundland?
I think this is something we as Canadians, yes including Quebeckers, don't understand very well about ourselves. Expectations about what government is, what it does in our lives and the limits and duties that citizenship brings are very much part of that shared context. One that's really invisible 99% of the time.
But in this sort of case, what Canadians expect of its government and how it should work are a little more visible than most times.
posted by bonehead at 2:23 PM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
I think this is something we as Canadians, yes including Quebeckers, don't understand very well about ourselves. Expectations about what government is, what it does in our lives and the limits and duties that citizenship brings are very much part of that shared context. One that's really invisible 99% of the time.
But in this sort of case, what Canadians expect of its government and how it should work are a little more visible than most times.
posted by bonehead at 2:23 PM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
they were ranting about how Alberta was the last "free" province in Canada and were musing about moving out there to escape the "tyranny"
Some of my Russian Mennonite in-laws were talking about the same thing when Manitoba's stricter rules were starting up. Their plans to uproot were quashed when Kenney brought back some of the measures. Not that they would have gone but... you know.
Is it just social media conspiracies all the way down
My friend who monitors a local Facebook group of anti-vaxxers, mostly for Nazi propaganda though he gets them banned for death threats as well, are all about terrain theory and dreamy Zach Bush these days. Today they apparently were talking about how Fauci plans to roll out an eugenics programme in Canada. So I guess the answer is yes?
posted by Ashwagandha at 2:26 PM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
Some of my Russian Mennonite in-laws were talking about the same thing when Manitoba's stricter rules were starting up. Their plans to uproot were quashed when Kenney brought back some of the measures. Not that they would have gone but... you know.
Is it just social media conspiracies all the way down
My friend who monitors a local Facebook group of anti-vaxxers, mostly for Nazi propaganda though he gets them banned for death threats as well, are all about terrain theory and dreamy Zach Bush these days. Today they apparently were talking about how Fauci plans to roll out an eugenics programme in Canada. So I guess the answer is yes?
posted by Ashwagandha at 2:26 PM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
And schools require other vaccinations to attend right now so mandating vaccines for students to continue attending isn't novel.
Oh yeah, and I think the rollout will focus on schools initially, at least in Toronto, and should go fast. But it will also depend on whether we can use what's in the freezer or have to wait for the pediatric-specific shot.
It is positive and I think the feds are doing things right, a lot of the Ontario measures - keeping masks in place and capacity limits and passports and everything else - are solid. But I also, maybe because I come into contact with families from about 40 schools in my work, think that it's likely there is a wider spread happening than the numbers show yet.
My unvaxed kid is still in school. He was in a class of 11 but we can't have that, so after the reorg he is now in a class of 29. Sigh. But the change in his mental and even physical health is huge, HUGE.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:48 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah, and I think the rollout will focus on schools initially, at least in Toronto, and should go fast. But it will also depend on whether we can use what's in the freezer or have to wait for the pediatric-specific shot.
It is positive and I think the feds are doing things right, a lot of the Ontario measures - keeping masks in place and capacity limits and passports and everything else - are solid. But I also, maybe because I come into contact with families from about 40 schools in my work, think that it's likely there is a wider spread happening than the numbers show yet.
My unvaxed kid is still in school. He was in a class of 11 but we can't have that, so after the reorg he is now in a class of 29. Sigh. But the change in his mental and even physical health is huge, HUGE.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:48 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
So while this policy only affects federally regulated workers, I think it's important for the federal government to set the tone on this (which is the same reason why I think the NDP was correct to push for a federal minimum wage, even if it doesn't immediately impact all workers). Case in point, major private sector employers going in the same direction.
posted by Kurichina at 3:01 PM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Kurichina at 3:01 PM on October 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
There's no 'shared' Canadian experience.
There is, and as I said, the proof is in our stability as a country. As bonehead said, our shared context can be invisible. But it is there.
You have more in common with the rest of Canada than you do with the rest of the world. Yes, even those of you in BC excited by the idea of "Cascadia". Even alienated westerners and alienated Quebeckers.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 3:29 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
There is, and as I said, the proof is in our stability as a country. As bonehead said, our shared context can be invisible. But it is there.
You have more in common with the rest of Canada than you do with the rest of the world. Yes, even those of you in BC excited by the idea of "Cascadia". Even alienated westerners and alienated Quebeckers.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 3:29 PM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
Further word around the office: For a religious exemption you need an affidavit signed by a "commissioner" [ed -- whatever that is]. For medical reasons you have to have risk of an actual reaction to something in the vaccine and have that substantiated by a doctor. Nothing like a fear of needles or whathaveyou.
posted by aclevername at 4:52 PM on October 7, 2021
posted by aclevername at 4:52 PM on October 7, 2021
As vaccine mandates roll out and people get dismissed with varying levels of agency in my community and others I'm in touch with, I'm hearing from lots of people who work with people who have been dismissed as a result of anti-vaxx insistence. It's uncanny how universally this seems to be ultimately shedding people who will not be missed.
Most people I talk to, talking about people who've been ejected from their organizations for non-compliance with vaccine mandates, are happy. Not that people are losing their jobs, but an amazingly common refrain that it will be a relief not to have to work with that particular person any more.
Bullies, the loudly ignorant, the toe-up-to-the-line-without-crossing-it office racist... this pandemic is very no good, but there seems to be a long-term silver lining in that large organizations everywhere seem to be shedding the most draining, drama-generating, stress-causing members of their staffs.
Vaccine mandates are B-Arking the people that make work miserable. Not universally, but it seems to be the common lived experience of the people in my orbit. So... there's that.
posted by Shepherd at 4:55 PM on October 7, 2021 [25 favorites]
Most people I talk to, talking about people who've been ejected from their organizations for non-compliance with vaccine mandates, are happy. Not that people are losing their jobs, but an amazingly common refrain that it will be a relief not to have to work with that particular person any more.
Bullies, the loudly ignorant, the toe-up-to-the-line-without-crossing-it office racist... this pandemic is very no good, but there seems to be a long-term silver lining in that large organizations everywhere seem to be shedding the most draining, drama-generating, stress-causing members of their staffs.
Vaccine mandates are B-Arking the people that make work miserable. Not universally, but it seems to be the common lived experience of the people in my orbit. So... there's that.
posted by Shepherd at 4:55 PM on October 7, 2021 [25 favorites]
> Get to a red state. Now.
Get thee to a red state, why woulds't thou be a spreader of plagues?
Bonus points for working in "inoculating our old stock." < /hamlet>
posted by flyingfox at 5:10 PM on October 7, 2021
Get thee to a red state, why woulds't thou be a spreader of plagues?
Bonus points for working in "inoculating our old stock." < /hamlet>
posted by flyingfox at 5:10 PM on October 7, 2021
Fun thing: with mandatory vaccination requirements increasingly rolling out into workplaces across the planet, those of true conviction will soon be fired or will quit. So start polishing up your CVs, folks, because chances are there could be some good opportunities coming up soonish.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:16 PM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:16 PM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Having someone swear a statutory declaration that they qualify for a religious exemption is pretty weak because the commissioner does nothing to evaluate the truth of the declaration. They just verify the person's identity and ask them to swear that the contents of the declaration are true. It is a criminal offence to make a false statement in the declaration but I'd be surprised if anyone ended up facing perjury charges even if they did it (I would be very happy to be proven wrong about this). I guess it'll just make it easier to fire the people who lied to claim an exemption.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:47 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:47 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
I imagine because it's much easier to fire people for fraud than it is for not getting a vaccine. But I probably shouldn't guess my employer's legal motivations online.....
posted by aclevername at 6:01 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aclevername at 6:01 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
The other (longer-term) thing is that it's also easier to not hire an anti-vaxxer than it is to fire one.
If an HR screening interviewer raises "We're a mandatory vaccination employer," and someone starts screeching about the "Nuremburg Code," they self-select out of the process early on.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:43 PM on October 7, 2021 [11 favorites]
If an HR screening interviewer raises "We're a mandatory vaccination employer," and someone starts screeching about the "Nuremburg Code," they self-select out of the process early on.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:43 PM on October 7, 2021 [11 favorites]
On medical exemptions, my sister in law's housemate decided "the vaccine is too political" as a good reason not to get it. So he decided to go to the doctor's to get a medical exemption. I love his doctor because he walked out with the first shot in his arm.
(Not Canada, Victoria Australia)
posted by freethefeet at 6:52 PM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
(Not Canada, Victoria Australia)
posted by freethefeet at 6:52 PM on October 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
That's a sane and effective doctor. Sadly, there are some who are shouldn't be allowed to practise medicine. Like this guy.
posted by sardonyx at 7:00 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by sardonyx at 7:00 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
There's no 'shared' Canadian experience.
A tour of the Canadian Museum of History is an interesting view of this question. They have a cast of that excellent Bill Reid sculpture where everyone together in the canoe is paddling in different directions...
posted by ovvl at 7:07 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
A tour of the Canadian Museum of History is an interesting view of this question. They have a cast of that excellent Bill Reid sculpture where everyone together in the canoe is paddling in different directions...
posted by ovvl at 7:07 PM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Having someone swear a statutory declaration that they qualify for a religious exemption is pretty weak because the commissioner does nothing to evaluate the truth of the declaration
We're being told to not expect this to be easy at all or to be offered at all except in cases of deeply held beliefs with clear and consistent restrictions on vaccines federally. I suspect "I don't believe in vaccination" to not work at all without a lot of proof. It's going to need to be demonstrated to boards of arbitrators, which knowing the system will involve depositions with third-party witnesses. It's a legal process equivalent roughly to going to civil court up to the Superior court level of appeal. As I said above the process federal employees have to use takes years to run and will involve many steps and interviews.
posted by bonehead at 7:11 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
We're being told to not expect this to be easy at all or to be offered at all except in cases of deeply held beliefs with clear and consistent restrictions on vaccines federally. I suspect "I don't believe in vaccination" to not work at all without a lot of proof. It's going to need to be demonstrated to boards of arbitrators, which knowing the system will involve depositions with third-party witnesses. It's a legal process equivalent roughly to going to civil court up to the Superior court level of appeal. As I said above the process federal employees have to use takes years to run and will involve many steps and interviews.
posted by bonehead at 7:11 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
hey I try to be compasssionate, but anti-vaxxers test my definition of what is human. It's actually making me feel more inhuman and less compassionate just thinking about those people/zombies who are literally infecting everyone with their manias.
posted by ovvl at 7:28 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 7:28 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, my BC post-secondary walked back our vaccine mandate - due to high levels of community vaccination. So, yes, I get to be in a face-to-face class without any required vaccination.
posted by Valancy Rachel at 7:45 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Valancy Rachel at 7:45 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Employers in Quebec are not allowed to ask about vaccination status or use it as a hiring decision (unless it is in health care or a federally regulated industry). So I can't get a massage because massage therapists don't have to be vaccinated and clients don't either.
posted by jeather at 7:49 PM on October 7, 2021
posted by jeather at 7:49 PM on October 7, 2021
Jeather—my partner's massage therapist here in Montreal is vaxxed, and volunteered that information to them. She didn't require her clients to be vaxxed, so it's only half the battle, but still, as a client, you can ask.
posted by jordantwodelta at 7:52 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by jordantwodelta at 7:52 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, my BC post-secondary walked back our vaccine mandate - due to high levels of community vaccination. So, yes, I get to be in a face-to-face class without any required vaccination.
Ugh, yes, my post secondary doesn’t have a vaccine mandate and we are in one of the health authorities in BC with much lower vax rates than the rest of the province. COVID has been merrily making its way through my institution, with vaccinated students, staff, and faculty getting infected.
At least there’s a mask mandate, I keep telling myself. My colleagues and I went all the way up to Aug. 24 thinking we’d have to teach face to face without our students being required to wear masks.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:03 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ugh, yes, my post secondary doesn’t have a vaccine mandate and we are in one of the health authorities in BC with much lower vax rates than the rest of the province. COVID has been merrily making its way through my institution, with vaccinated students, staff, and faculty getting infected.
At least there’s a mask mandate, I keep telling myself. My colleagues and I went all the way up to Aug. 24 thinking we’d have to teach face to face without our students being required to wear masks.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:03 PM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Primary and secondary education in Australia is run at a state level. In NSW, vaccines have been mandated and we have to show our 'vaccine certificate' administered via our national health service app to our principal, deputy or admin head to prove the double dose. Unless you have an accepted exemption, you won't have a job after the cut-off date.
A casual employee colleague who is also a naturopath lost her composure in a recent faculty meeting with a 'think of the children!' anti-vax rant. I called to check in with her after I heard that her contract will be terminated if she doesn't get the vax. She said it doesn't matter. Her naturopath business is expanding because she is anti-vax. Sigh. I live in a region where some shops forbid entry if you have been vaccinated ('cos vaccines shed the virus donchaknow). Ugh. Head bang desk.
However, it is affirming to hear my other colleagues support our state mandate and start to talk about Karl Popper's tolerance paradox – there is a line, this is it, and vaccine nonsense will not be tolerated.
posted by Thella at 12:04 AM on October 8, 2021
A casual employee colleague who is also a naturopath lost her composure in a recent faculty meeting with a 'think of the children!' anti-vax rant. I called to check in with her after I heard that her contract will be terminated if she doesn't get the vax. She said it doesn't matter. Her naturopath business is expanding because she is anti-vax. Sigh. I live in a region where some shops forbid entry if you have been vaccinated ('cos vaccines shed the virus donchaknow). Ugh. Head bang desk.
However, it is affirming to hear my other colleagues support our state mandate and start to talk about Karl Popper's tolerance paradox – there is a line, this is it, and vaccine nonsense will not be tolerated.
posted by Thella at 12:04 AM on October 8, 2021
Some of my Russian Mennonite in-laws were talking about the same thing when Manitoba's stricter rules were starting up.
Oh, I certainly remember that disingenuous fucking cbc puff-piece. Framing the vaccine like what sort of soda you might happen to prefer. Big on talking about community values and families, with the stock photo of a combine harvester.
One fucking line talking about the consequences, with covid cases and 3 deaths up to now.
Zero interviews with widows and widowers. Zero fucking lines about how covid eventually ripped though rural areas in the US. Zero paragraphs about what it's been like in existing covid wards. Zero pictures of bodybags. Zero forecasting, zero predicting, zero casual fucking analysis of how this is inevitably going to play out.
Conspicuous by their absence - hard questions like "Why do you think Covid isn't going to kill unvaccinated people in this area just as it has killed so many other unvaccinated people in rural communties?"
I'm sure there's pithy quotes about a photograph being significant for what it leaves out as much as for what the photographer choose to include in the frame.
Someone who's not vaccinated can come away with it, nodding their head, "yeah, these are good people, like me. I'm not alone."
It's the covid equivalent of sending a big-city reporter to go have a nice chat in a diner with rural conservative voters who keep re-electing politicians who act against their interests, where the reporter does precisely fuck all to examine and explain the consequences of the voters' views and actions.
And normalizing their actions.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:57 AM on October 8, 2021 [13 favorites]
Oh, I certainly remember that disingenuous fucking cbc puff-piece. Framing the vaccine like what sort of soda you might happen to prefer. Big on talking about community values and families, with the stock photo of a combine harvester.
One fucking line talking about the consequences, with covid cases and 3 deaths up to now.
Zero interviews with widows and widowers. Zero fucking lines about how covid eventually ripped though rural areas in the US. Zero paragraphs about what it's been like in existing covid wards. Zero pictures of bodybags. Zero forecasting, zero predicting, zero casual fucking analysis of how this is inevitably going to play out.
Conspicuous by their absence - hard questions like "Why do you think Covid isn't going to kill unvaccinated people in this area just as it has killed so many other unvaccinated people in rural communties?"
I'm sure there's pithy quotes about a photograph being significant for what it leaves out as much as for what the photographer choose to include in the frame.
Someone who's not vaccinated can come away with it, nodding their head, "yeah, these are good people, like me. I'm not alone."
It's the covid equivalent of sending a big-city reporter to go have a nice chat in a diner with rural conservative voters who keep re-electing politicians who act against their interests, where the reporter does precisely fuck all to examine and explain the consequences of the voters' views and actions.
And normalizing their actions.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:57 AM on October 8, 2021 [13 favorites]
Oh, I'm sure if I did the work I could find someone who does massage who is vaxxed and who only accepts vaccinated clients -- I did find one, but off island -- but the truth is I don't want to do that work enough. I try not to think about these too much so I don't explode in rage about how much I hate our premier.
posted by jeather at 5:44 AM on October 8, 2021
posted by jeather at 5:44 AM on October 8, 2021
There's no 'shared' Canadian experience.
There have been some interesting discussions on Metafilter about how most nation-states are a cobbled-together collection of cultures. Canada is in line with everybody else on this one.
posted by clawsoon at 6:04 AM on October 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
There have been some interesting discussions on Metafilter about how most nation-states are a cobbled-together collection of cultures. Canada is in line with everybody else on this one.
posted by clawsoon at 6:04 AM on October 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
(And the few that aren't cobbled together usually resulted from being genocidal hellholes at some point, with every bit of variety violently wiped out. So not having a fully shared Canadian experience isn't a bad thing. We tried to eliminate a bunch of cultural variety and enforce shared experience by erasing First Nations cultures, and that's pretty much the most shameful thing that we've done as a nation.)
posted by clawsoon at 6:09 AM on October 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 6:09 AM on October 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Aaaaand now I get an email from my union saying “We want to assure members that the Union is prepared to take further action as it relates to the new details of this policy and its application.” So I guess all the pushback from the nutjobs worked.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:19 AM on October 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:19 AM on October 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
My coworkers and bosses are fully comfortable talking about editing the fake vax passports they've found and getting fake ids to match. Suddenly respecting everyone's choice to get vaccinated or not is less important than being able to eat in a restaurant and spread disease to other people who think they're being safe.
posted by sgrass at 11:41 AM on October 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by sgrass at 11:41 AM on October 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Zero pictures of bodybags.
A friend of mine who works in an LTC home here in Toronto has a story about the time they ran out of bodybags one terrible week during the first wave.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:15 PM on October 8, 2021
A friend of mine who works in an LTC home here in Toronto has a story about the time they ran out of bodybags one terrible week during the first wave.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:15 PM on October 8, 2021
so the question we are all asking: when can we enrol in Phalene's Canada 101 course? and if you detect any snark in that comment, shame on you
posted by elkevelvet at 2:29 PM on October 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by elkevelvet at 2:29 PM on October 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
When I travelled to Iceland years ago I visited the Culture House Museum in Reykjavik. It was eye opening especially as a Canadian. I often wondered if we would benefit from something like that. It could start with something as broad as like Coupland's Souvenir of Canada and then hammer down exploring the broader and wider cultural tributaries. It might do us some good to see some of our shared characteristics and our differences.
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:01 PM on October 9, 2021
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:01 PM on October 9, 2021
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posted by Kitteh at 7:44 AM on October 7, 2021 [19 favorites]