How the Rise of the ‘Softboy’ Fueled the Culture Wars
October 31, 2021 1:52 PM Subscribe
In a pop world ruled by Harry Styles, some hard rockers are going Trumpy. Politico spends a medium-length read examining the evolution of the image of men in the music world and what it might imply for politics. It's an interesting prism through which to view the present moment, certainly.
"America’s cultural landscape can’t be fully depicted through a few neat archetypes, but to understand how and why it’s changed so drastically over the past two decades, and why the reaction has been so strong — and to some, unexpected — one could do much worse than to consider the rise of the softboy, and what, and who, he stepped over to reach the cultural summit."
"America’s cultural landscape can’t be fully depicted through a few neat archetypes, but to understand how and why it’s changed so drastically over the past two decades, and why the reaction has been so strong — and to some, unexpected — one could do much worse than to consider the rise of the softboy, and what, and who, he stepped over to reach the cultural summit."
It's also worth noting just how many of the current crop of young right-wing influencer types got their start doing men's self-help stuff around dating and masculinity, and doing it in a way that put a great deal of emphasis on performative hypermasculinity.
posted by SansPoint at 2:01 PM on October 31, 2021 [50 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 2:01 PM on October 31, 2021 [50 favorites]
Are you tellin’ me, that I'm the only one
Willin’ to fight
For my love of the red and white
And the blue, burnin’ on the ground
Another statue comin’ down in a town near you
"...Lewis’ arc from mainstream rockstar to Bard of American Greatness was just an odd curio. But it tracks The Economist researchers’ findings that the areas most susceptible to Trump’s open culture-war appeal were those that still embrace hard rock. Those kinds of acts might have disappeared from the cultural mainstream in the decades since Woodstock ’99, but it wouldn’t be quite accurate to refer to them as “dinosaurs.” They’re more like endangered species, or maybe wolverines — confined to a small area, but packing a punch disproportionate to their size.,
This explains the visceral connotation that is Ted Nugent.
posted by clavdivs at 2:15 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
Willin’ to fight
For my love of the red and white
And the blue, burnin’ on the ground
Another statue comin’ down in a town near you
"...Lewis’ arc from mainstream rockstar to Bard of American Greatness was just an odd curio. But it tracks The Economist researchers’ findings that the areas most susceptible to Trump’s open culture-war appeal were those that still embrace hard rock. Those kinds of acts might have disappeared from the cultural mainstream in the decades since Woodstock ’99, but it wouldn’t be quite accurate to refer to them as “dinosaurs.” They’re more like endangered species, or maybe wolverines — confined to a small area, but packing a punch disproportionate to their size.,
This explains the visceral connotation that is Ted Nugent.
posted by clavdivs at 2:15 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
I distinctly recall Staind being derided as whiny and insufficiently "hard" during their heyday.
posted by Selena777 at 2:16 PM on October 31, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 2:16 PM on October 31, 2021 [12 favorites]
This is the 2020s version of the rock star whose financial fortunes have taken a downturn going to Nashville and giving country music a spin, isn't it.
posted by jscalzi at 2:23 PM on October 31, 2021 [28 favorites]
posted by jscalzi at 2:23 PM on October 31, 2021 [28 favorites]
The endless, violent anxiety at the root of American (read: toxic) masculinity is just fucking exhausting to deal with. I pray for the day that the world is rid of this shit.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:30 PM on October 31, 2021 [62 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:30 PM on October 31, 2021 [62 favorites]
So is Rock music going to go the way of Jazz? Just something a few old farts listen to, with no presence in popular culture.
posted by Bee'sWing at 2:35 PM on October 31, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 2:35 PM on October 31, 2021 [11 favorites]
The Soft Boys would like a word with them
I feel it comin' on again, just like it did before
They feed your pride with boredom and they lead you on to war!
The way you treat each other really makes me feel ill
'Cos if you wanna fight then you're just dying to get killed!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:37 PM on October 31, 2021 [17 favorites]
I feel it comin' on again, just like it did before
They feed your pride with boredom and they lead you on to war!
The way you treat each other really makes me feel ill
'Cos if you wanna fight then you're just dying to get killed!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:37 PM on October 31, 2021 [17 favorites]
Flames... flames, on the side of my face...
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:38 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:38 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
A couple issues:
1) Woodstock ‘99 did not lead to the decline of rock music. Rap ate rock’s lunch. That’s it. These things happen.
2) Is the entire genesis of this article that the writer heard a latter-day song by the guy from Staind? There don’t seem to be any other examples given. Also, people stopped caring about Staind almost immediately, for good reason, how and why does one even find what their former singer is doing now?
posted by sinfony at 2:53 PM on October 31, 2021 [54 favorites]
1) Woodstock ‘99 did not lead to the decline of rock music. Rap ate rock’s lunch. That’s it. These things happen.
2) Is the entire genesis of this article that the writer heard a latter-day song by the guy from Staind? There don’t seem to be any other examples given. Also, people stopped caring about Staind almost immediately, for good reason, how and why does one even find what their former singer is doing now?
posted by sinfony at 2:53 PM on October 31, 2021 [54 favorites]
pray for the day that the world is rid of this shit.
in ancient times it was the clergy or the military that seem to curb untenable youth.
As if Haven Hamilton is reinventing Hal Philip Walker sans spooky cult minions with the calming "This isn't Dallas" from Nashville.
posted by clavdivs at 2:58 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
in ancient times it was the clergy or the military that seem to curb untenable youth.
As if Haven Hamilton is reinventing Hal Philip Walker sans spooky cult minions with the calming "This isn't Dallas" from Nashville.
posted by clavdivs at 2:58 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
So is Rock music going to go the way of Jazz? Just something a few old farts listen to, with no presence in popular culture.
I think that process is already well under way. Rock's been fading into cultural irrelevance ever since hip hop and rave arrived. I mean, when was the last truly essential rock album released? 1980 or so?
posted by Paul Slade at 3:09 PM on October 31, 2021 [7 favorites]
I think that process is already well under way. Rock's been fading into cultural irrelevance ever since hip hop and rave arrived. I mean, when was the last truly essential rock album released? 1980 or so?
posted by Paul Slade at 3:09 PM on October 31, 2021 [7 favorites]
Perhaps late-90s grunge was rock's last gasp. Then the Christian rock bands like Creed came in to fill the post-grunge gap.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:23 PM on October 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:23 PM on October 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
If you're worried that your favorite male rockers are somehow going to be driven to Trumpism by Harry Styles' success or whatever (I honestly did not find this article terribly persuasive), I think the obvious solution is to get into some different rockers. Lemme offer a few quick suggestions, and maybe you'll spot a pattern (and perhaps even a loose theme to the specific songs I've picked):
The Pretty Reckless
Halestorm
Dorothy
Meg Myers
posted by mstokes650 at 3:29 PM on October 31, 2021 [13 favorites]
The Pretty Reckless
Halestorm
Dorothy
Meg Myers
posted by mstokes650 at 3:29 PM on October 31, 2021 [13 favorites]
It needs to be mentioned that Politico is not a place I would look to for serious cultural analysis and they have had some not-great takes in the past.
I don't think this is anything but a retread of the Oh No, Metrosexuals! panic, and before that the Disco Is Not Real Music bullshit.
Men don't have to wear dresses now, or talk about their feelings, but maybe they can if they want. Freaking out that the existence of a Harry Styles somehow means The End of Rock is old, tired and wrong.
posted by emjaybee at 3:32 PM on October 31, 2021 [48 favorites]
I don't think this is anything but a retread of the Oh No, Metrosexuals! panic, and before that the Disco Is Not Real Music bullshit.
Men don't have to wear dresses now, or talk about their feelings, but maybe they can if they want. Freaking out that the existence of a Harry Styles somehow means The End of Rock is old, tired and wrong.
posted by emjaybee at 3:32 PM on October 31, 2021 [48 favorites]
The 2000s gave us the Strokes, Interpol, and Arcade Fire, but I dunno if any of those debut albums are "essential".
But as Marge Simpsons says, "Music is none of my business."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:46 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
But as Marge Simpsons says, "Music is none of my business."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:46 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
I’m gonna go throw on some T Rex and then maybe the Velvet Goldmine soundtrack, brb
posted by thecaddy at 3:47 PM on October 31, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by thecaddy at 3:47 PM on October 31, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'd say that for anyone born in the 90s or later, there are a ton of essential rock albums from the 90s/late 80s - the Pixies and Nirvana have been... somewhat influential, I'd say.
posted by sagc at 3:49 PM on October 31, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by sagc at 3:49 PM on October 31, 2021 [21 favorites]
White Stripes? Black Keys? Strokes? War on Drugs? Lots of stuff on KEXP if the journos want to research.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:59 PM on October 31, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:59 PM on October 31, 2021 [16 favorites]
There's definitely a difference between stadium and indie rock, as far as how many are in the audience, and what that means for popular culture and influence. Not sure Politico is the place for reviewing that, but maybe there's an overlap with Trump insurrectionist voters.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:02 PM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:02 PM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm also not persuaded that the Billboard 100 is a useful metric for people's access to music in the era of streaming music and Youtube videos. I kinda assume that that internet provides an accessible route to find all genres of music. Like I stopped listening to industrial in high school, but I know there are a ton of bands active in the genre today. (As a side note, I walked past a dude in a Clippers jersey blasting industrial music from a bluetooth boombox just this morning). Metal also didn't die.
Other questions that come to mind. What's the age distribution of anti-softboys? Is this like Xi Jinping's China crackdown on sissy boys or just a variation on petro masculinity?
posted by spamandkimchi at 4:05 PM on October 31, 2021 [14 favorites]
Other questions that come to mind. What's the age distribution of anti-softboys? Is this like Xi Jinping's China crackdown on sissy boys or just a variation on petro masculinity?
posted by spamandkimchi at 4:05 PM on October 31, 2021 [14 favorites]
A few random comments:
Grunge was probably the last gasp of Rock (and Roll) as The Popular Music of the US, before ceding that title to Hip Hop / Pop-Dance music. The invention of nu-metal/rap-rock was the (white-owned) music industry's sad attempt to keep white rock stars at the top of the pops, and we saw how well that worked. The Strokes and their followers ushered in the era of the Detached Ironic Hipster Rockstar, a sure sign that the genre was on the wane. Jazz is probably one of the least popular genres in the US in terms of airplay and record sales... but via Hip Hop it is embedded in pop culture/music. Listen to any hip hop album and you WILL hear jazz, in one form or another, whether its a sample or in the rhythmic style of an MC like Notorious B.I.G. And for whatever it is worth, there are probably more young people learning to play jazz (via high school and university music programs) and rock (via places like the School of Rock) than ever before in history.
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:08 PM on October 31, 2021 [19 favorites]
Grunge was probably the last gasp of Rock (and Roll) as The Popular Music of the US, before ceding that title to Hip Hop / Pop-Dance music. The invention of nu-metal/rap-rock was the (white-owned) music industry's sad attempt to keep white rock stars at the top of the pops, and we saw how well that worked. The Strokes and their followers ushered in the era of the Detached Ironic Hipster Rockstar, a sure sign that the genre was on the wane. Jazz is probably one of the least popular genres in the US in terms of airplay and record sales... but via Hip Hop it is embedded in pop culture/music. Listen to any hip hop album and you WILL hear jazz, in one form or another, whether its a sample or in the rhythmic style of an MC like Notorious B.I.G. And for whatever it is worth, there are probably more young people learning to play jazz (via high school and university music programs) and rock (via places like the School of Rock) than ever before in history.
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:08 PM on October 31, 2021 [19 favorites]
Laibach has been making the connection between Stadium Rock and Fascism since at least 1987 (c.f. the original)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:13 PM on October 31, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:13 PM on October 31, 2021 [10 favorites]
ManBoy rock has been a thing for a loooong time, but it's kind of self marginalizing into its own niche once it digs in.
Yeah, maybe this article was unintentionally engineered to hurt Ted Nugent's feelings. His is the crowd Politico is wooing these days, isn't it?
posted by 2N2222 at 4:14 PM on October 31, 2021
Yeah, maybe this article was unintentionally engineered to hurt Ted Nugent's feelings. His is the crowd Politico is wooing these days, isn't it?
posted by 2N2222 at 4:14 PM on October 31, 2021
I'd say that for anyone born in the 90s or later, there are a ton of essential rock albums from the 90s/late 80s - the Pixies and Nirvana have been... somewhat influential, I'd say.
1980 is a ridiculous answer. 00s would probably be the most common answer (re: the end of rock being vital).
posted by atoxyl at 4:14 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
1980 is a ridiculous answer. 00s would probably be the most common answer (re: the end of rock being vital).
posted by atoxyl at 4:14 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
Oh, and regarding reports of rockers on record recently reciting reactionary ... um, statements, off the top of my head I can think of Dave Mustaine (anti-masker, covid-denier), the guitar player from the Deftones (same), Krist Novoselic (positive reactions to Trump, although Dave Grohl says he's not a fascist), Glenn Danzig (anti-"wokeness"), Noel Gallagher (same), Morrissey (same, also openly racist)... I'm sure I could come up with several more with a little time and googling.
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:17 PM on October 31, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:17 PM on October 31, 2021 [7 favorites]
Anyway how are you going to write the article and barely mention rap? Like no shit rock is an old white guy genre but it's absurd to make an argument addressing What Masculinity in Music Is Now without talking about the genre that took over as the home of young tough guys years ago.
posted by atoxyl at 4:21 PM on October 31, 2021 [23 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 4:21 PM on October 31, 2021 [23 favorites]
Thank you - that's what the Joe Rogan set are listening to.
posted by Selena777 at 4:26 PM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 4:26 PM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh, and regarding reports of rockers on record recently reciting reactionary ... um, statements, off the top of my head I can think of Dave Mustaine (anti-masker, covid-denier), the guitar player from the Deftones (same), Krist Novoselic (positive reactions to Trump, although Dave Grohl says he's not a fascist), Glenn Danzig (anti-"wokeness"), Noel Gallagher (same), Morrissey (same, also openly racist)... I'm sure I could come up with several more with a little time and googling.
Danzig was always a Republican, though, and Morrissey has been right wing for decades now. Mustaine, too, sorta, though he's always been more just inchoately angry and "anti-establishment." And I don't know if Stephen Carpenter is more broadly right-wing, he's just up to his armpits in conspiracy theory.
posted by atoxyl at 4:27 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
Danzig was always a Republican, though, and Morrissey has been right wing for decades now. Mustaine, too, sorta, though he's always been more just inchoately angry and "anti-establishment." And I don't know if Stephen Carpenter is more broadly right-wing, he's just up to his armpits in conspiracy theory.
posted by atoxyl at 4:27 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
Thank you - that's what the Joe Rogan set are listening to.
The politics of masculinity in hip hop are themselves complicated and divided but that's my point, how can somebody possibly talk like the main relevant divide in music now is between aging rockers and Harry Styles?
posted by atoxyl at 4:29 PM on October 31, 2021 [8 favorites]
The politics of masculinity in hip hop are themselves complicated and divided but that's my point, how can somebody possibly talk like the main relevant divide in music now is between aging rockers and Harry Styles?
posted by atoxyl at 4:29 PM on October 31, 2021 [8 favorites]
Danzig was always a Republican, though, and Morrissey has been right wing for decades now. Mustaine, too, sorta, though he's always been more just inchoately angry and "anti-establishment."
They aren't new developments, but it is one way that some of these folks are getting a bit more airtime these days.
I don't know if Stephen Carpenter is more broadly right-wing, he's just up to his armpits in conspiracy theory.
Well if he's not right-wing yet, the conspiracy theories are 99.9% likely to drive him there.
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:35 PM on October 31, 2021
They aren't new developments, but it is one way that some of these folks are getting a bit more airtime these days.
I don't know if Stephen Carpenter is more broadly right-wing, he's just up to his armpits in conspiracy theory.
Well if he's not right-wing yet, the conspiracy theories are 99.9% likely to drive him there.
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:35 PM on October 31, 2021
hard rock > old age > dementia > trumpy
posted by nofundy at 5:00 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by nofundy at 5:00 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
There is still some cool rock music being made, but aside from the fringes, we’re in an age where all rock is essentially classic rock.
posted by snofoam at 5:01 PM on October 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 5:01 PM on October 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
Is this like Xi Jinping's China crackdown on sissy boys or just a variation on petro masculinity?
Yes.
posted by acb at 5:15 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yes.
posted by acb at 5:15 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
No mention of "bro country?" That one is just irritating AF.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:22 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:22 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
hard rock > old age > dementia > trumpy
The repeated cranial impact of banging one's head to hard rock probably doesn't help either.
posted by acb at 5:23 PM on October 31, 2021
The repeated cranial impact of banging one's head to hard rock probably doesn't help either.
posted by acb at 5:23 PM on October 31, 2021
There's a really invigorating rock scene going on in the UK. Check out the Brixton Windmill scene. It is overtly political, post-brexit stuff, that has hugely diverse influences pulling from prog, post-punk, hardcore, and countless other things. Influences are so diverse that it is hard to imagine groups like Squid existing before people were growing up with access to giant music libraries through the likes of Spotify.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 5:24 PM on October 31, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by forbiddencabinet at 5:24 PM on October 31, 2021 [18 favorites]
Cultural trends are often cyclical, so while we may not see a rebirth of Rock per se, I do think at some point the idea of "people playing musical instruments in a band" will come back around. I mean we've already seen this happen once — I think a lot of the 90s music (including grunge) was a reaction to the highly-commercialized vocal pop of the 80s.
Having said that, I have sort of an alternate theory that Country will be the vector by which guitar music remains a cultural force. Country is a traditionalist art form, and can only stray so far from the formula before the audience cries foul — for better or worse. I feel like I've been seeing a lot of non-Southerners get into Country recently, possibly because there's a lot of great Alt-Country being made now, and maybe also a little bit because of Tyler Mahan Coe's phenomenal podcast.
posted by panama joe at 5:44 PM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
Having said that, I have sort of an alternate theory that Country will be the vector by which guitar music remains a cultural force. Country is a traditionalist art form, and can only stray so far from the formula before the audience cries foul — for better or worse. I feel like I've been seeing a lot of non-Southerners get into Country recently, possibly because there's a lot of great Alt-Country being made now, and maybe also a little bit because of Tyler Mahan Coe's phenomenal podcast.
posted by panama joe at 5:44 PM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
I found this article pretty strange. It's certainly worth considering the "Trumpification" of (white men) rock stars. But the article seems to frame a world of music in which basically only white people exist. It's not just, as others have pointed out, it acts as if rap didn't exist as a genre. After all, the term "rock and roll" came from Black American vernacular.
And just look at the founding father of rock, Little Richard. Androgynous pretty men have always been key to the genre. And so has nonheteronormativity--Little Richard's classic song Tutti Frutti was about anal sex between men. (The live version not made safe for work or studio recording was about "tutti frutti good booty.")
I don't mean to harsh on the article. But the presumption that you can't simultaneously be tough and androgynous is tired. Androgyny and softness are not equivalent things (which is not to say that being soft and tender is in any way less worthy of respect than being tough--it's just that androgyny comes in all sorts of flavors). And the idea that being a strong masculine man entails engaging in sexual assault and seething with hate naturalizes toxic masculinity. If author Robertson thinks "traditional" (it's not) masculinity deserves space and respect in the world of commercial pop culture, framing it as inherently and inevitably antisocial is a weird way to go about achieving that.
(Also, calling music or a scene "male" when you mean "masculine" is nails on a chalkboard to me as someone who teaches about sex and gender. Oy.)
But! Recognizing that white men in a particular musical genre are able to get a second wind of popularity and influx of cash by putting on MAGA hats is worth noticing. The paradigmatic Trumpists are in fact the very same white men who wore "Disco Sucks" buttons in the 1970s to display their identities--overtly, as rockers, and covertly, as racists. So this alpha-male-posturing-anti-wokeness-rock fad for aging rockers makes sense.
I don't think it's strange or sad that this music isn't making it into the Hot 100, though.
posted by DrMew at 6:03 PM on October 31, 2021 [39 favorites]
And just look at the founding father of rock, Little Richard. Androgynous pretty men have always been key to the genre. And so has nonheteronormativity--Little Richard's classic song Tutti Frutti was about anal sex between men. (The live version not made safe for work or studio recording was about "tutti frutti good booty.")
I don't mean to harsh on the article. But the presumption that you can't simultaneously be tough and androgynous is tired. Androgyny and softness are not equivalent things (which is not to say that being soft and tender is in any way less worthy of respect than being tough--it's just that androgyny comes in all sorts of flavors). And the idea that being a strong masculine man entails engaging in sexual assault and seething with hate naturalizes toxic masculinity. If author Robertson thinks "traditional" (it's not) masculinity deserves space and respect in the world of commercial pop culture, framing it as inherently and inevitably antisocial is a weird way to go about achieving that.
(Also, calling music or a scene "male" when you mean "masculine" is nails on a chalkboard to me as someone who teaches about sex and gender. Oy.)
But! Recognizing that white men in a particular musical genre are able to get a second wind of popularity and influx of cash by putting on MAGA hats is worth noticing. The paradigmatic Trumpists are in fact the very same white men who wore "Disco Sucks" buttons in the 1970s to display their identities--overtly, as rockers, and covertly, as racists. So this alpha-male-posturing-anti-wokeness-rock fad for aging rockers makes sense.
I don't think it's strange or sad that this music isn't making it into the Hot 100, though.
posted by DrMew at 6:03 PM on October 31, 2021 [39 favorites]
So is Rock music going to go the way of Jazz? Just something a few old farts listen to, with no presence in popular culture.
The last important rock album was OK Computer with a special shout out to The White Stripes' Elephant because it's impossible to have a sporting event without "Seven Nation Army" happening at some point.
There's nothing wrong with bands of old farts making music for a few old farts. However, bands for the not-youths need to do a better job of catering to their demographic. People weren't leaving Sleater-Kinney because it was a bad show, they were leaving because they needed to be back to pay the babysitter.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:04 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
The last important rock album was OK Computer with a special shout out to The White Stripes' Elephant because it's impossible to have a sporting event without "Seven Nation Army" happening at some point.
There's nothing wrong with bands of old farts making music for a few old farts. However, bands for the not-youths need to do a better job of catering to their demographic. People weren't leaving Sleater-Kinney because it was a bad show, they were leaving because they needed to be back to pay the babysitter.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:04 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm listening to rock music right now that is (a) pretty damn great and (b) produced this century, (c) not by white dudes. ??? I honestly didn't think I was so old that anything after Nirvana is somehow irrelevant.
posted by nonethefewer at 6:31 PM on October 31, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by nonethefewer at 6:31 PM on October 31, 2021 [8 favorites]
This essay should have remained a tweet.
posted by Lyme Drop at 6:32 PM on October 31, 2021 [25 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 6:32 PM on October 31, 2021 [25 favorites]
but aside from the fringes, we’re in an age where all rock is essentially classic rock.
Hold on now. What about…. [checks notes] … Oh shit, that was 25 years ago.
posted by sjswitzer at 6:32 PM on October 31, 2021 [11 favorites]
Hold on now. What about…. [checks notes] … Oh shit, that was 25 years ago.
posted by sjswitzer at 6:32 PM on October 31, 2021 [11 favorites]
Jazz is probably one of the least popular genres in the US in terms of airplay and record sales... but via Hip Hop it is embedded in pop culture/music. Listen to any hip hop album and you WILL hear jazz, in one form or another, whether its a sample or in the rhythmic style of an MC like Notorious B.I.G.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.
Plus, of course, all the Black musicians and backup singers who actually perform Hot 100 modern pop in the studio or live - there's about a 99% chance they got their start playing in church (and gospel music is heavily cross-pollinated with jazz) and then moved on to learning Miles Davis and Return To Forever and Kirk Whalum tunes.
Saying "jazz has no presence in popular culture" is, frankly, a very White perspective on things. Yeah, sure, there's no "jazz" hard bop or big band swing records hitting the top of the pop charts, but a ton of the Black musicians creating popular culture right this minute know damn well what jazz is and use it every day.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:01 PM on October 31, 2021 [46 favorites]
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.
Plus, of course, all the Black musicians and backup singers who actually perform Hot 100 modern pop in the studio or live - there's about a 99% chance they got their start playing in church (and gospel music is heavily cross-pollinated with jazz) and then moved on to learning Miles Davis and Return To Forever and Kirk Whalum tunes.
Saying "jazz has no presence in popular culture" is, frankly, a very White perspective on things. Yeah, sure, there's no "jazz" hard bop or big band swing records hitting the top of the pop charts, but a ton of the Black musicians creating popular culture right this minute know damn well what jazz is and use it every day.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:01 PM on October 31, 2021 [46 favorites]
Myself, I'm old enough to remember when the radio dial here still had a surviving Big Band station on A.M. That audience was born in the 1910s and 1920s -- they're gone now, and so is that station.
posted by gimonca at 7:15 PM on October 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by gimonca at 7:15 PM on October 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
As a palate cleanser, we can still enjoy the anecdotes of Chris Christie being snubbed by Springsteen.
posted by gimonca at 7:18 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by gimonca at 7:18 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
And just look at the founding father of rock, Little Richard.
Or even better, the Founding Grandmother of rock, Sister Rosetta Tharpe. (previously)
I prefer "grandmother" to "godmother," as the latter names a ritual/social relationship, where as the first is one of generation/lineage
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:35 PM on October 31, 2021 [7 favorites]
Or even better, the Founding Grandmother of rock, Sister Rosetta Tharpe. (previously)
I prefer "grandmother" to "godmother," as the latter names a ritual/social relationship, where as the first is one of generation/lineage
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:35 PM on October 31, 2021 [7 favorites]
Wow, that was certainly a not very well-informed attempt at cultural analysis with some sizeable gaps in the reasoning and a bit of a rhetorical over-reliance on overly broad stereotypes lazily misconstrued as archetypes.
Also a major misreading of Springsteen’s 80s style, which was closer to gigolo than aggressive masculinity.
(Side note on the topic of rock’s not dead: Beyoncé’s Lemonade was arguably a rock album, at least as much as it was any other genre, and it seemed to do alright in the charts and revenue metrics. Very few musicians are in the same tier as Beyoncé for cultural influence, but Gary Clark Jr. has also been making some pretty important (and reasonably well received) albums.)
posted by eviemath at 8:05 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also a major misreading of Springsteen’s 80s style, which was closer to gigolo than aggressive masculinity.
(Side note on the topic of rock’s not dead: Beyoncé’s Lemonade was arguably a rock album, at least as much as it was any other genre, and it seemed to do alright in the charts and revenue metrics. Very few musicians are in the same tier as Beyoncé for cultural influence, but Gary Clark Jr. has also been making some pretty important (and reasonably well received) albums.)
posted by eviemath at 8:05 PM on October 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
Just this afternoon I was watching one of the videos from The Take, a Youtube pop culture critique channel; they were focusing on the popularity of Timothee Chalamet as the strongest-yet sign of a change in how Hollywood depicts masculinity; they also point to Harry Styles and how he is the similar example in the music world.
But - in the video they also point out that even in the height of the "rock and roll" era, there were men who had an androgynous thing going on. Someone mentioned Little Richard above - but then there's obviously David Bowie, and Mick Jagger went through a serious dandy phase in the 60s as well. And then there's Freddy Mercury, who I admit I was surprised wasn't even mentioned in this video (although he sure could have been).
Instead of the "softboy" being a New Thing Taking Over Music, I'd argue that it's always been there from the word jump, and people have always swung from one to the other throughout history. In fact, I'd suggest that maybe it's the appearance of the "softboy" in film that may be the more significant thing - when Little Richard and Jagger and Bowie were flirting with androgyny, it was as a counter-culture opposition to the square-jawed he-men that Hollywood was giving us at the time (there were more sensitive men, but they were usually lesser characters or figures of fun). Whereas today, you have more sensitive men being the stars of the Hollywood scene. (....The video puts it better than I do, just go watch it....)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:31 PM on October 31, 2021 [14 favorites]
But - in the video they also point out that even in the height of the "rock and roll" era, there were men who had an androgynous thing going on. Someone mentioned Little Richard above - but then there's obviously David Bowie, and Mick Jagger went through a serious dandy phase in the 60s as well. And then there's Freddy Mercury, who I admit I was surprised wasn't even mentioned in this video (although he sure could have been).
Instead of the "softboy" being a New Thing Taking Over Music, I'd argue that it's always been there from the word jump, and people have always swung from one to the other throughout history. In fact, I'd suggest that maybe it's the appearance of the "softboy" in film that may be the more significant thing - when Little Richard and Jagger and Bowie were flirting with androgyny, it was as a counter-culture opposition to the square-jawed he-men that Hollywood was giving us at the time (there were more sensitive men, but they were usually lesser characters or figures of fun). Whereas today, you have more sensitive men being the stars of the Hollywood scene. (....The video puts it better than I do, just go watch it....)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:31 PM on October 31, 2021 [14 favorites]
Rock is definitely less relevant than it was 20 years ago, but I think it's back on an upswing.
You have massively popular new bands like Greta Van Fleet and Måneskin and a revival of interest in older stuff. Fleetwood Mac was huge last year.
posted by zymil at 8:54 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
You have massively popular new bands like Greta Van Fleet and Måneskin and a revival of interest in older stuff. Fleetwood Mac was huge last year.
posted by zymil at 8:54 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
I guess Idles is doing doing all the work for the kids these days. Relevant rock is not dead yet.
posted by djseafood at 8:54 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by djseafood at 8:54 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
I was watching a boxing event on TV last night held in the Madison Square Garden Theatre, which is located directly under the main arena. Just before the main event one of the commentators, a former boxer, quipped that he was a little scared as the camera panned up to reveal what looked like a giant claw from one of those prize machines found at arcades swaying above the ring. I thought it was some weird Halloween gimmick until the play by play guy explained the Harry Styles concert upstairs was vibrating the roof, which was causing what I guess was the sound rig above the ring to sway.
I'm not sure if the ideas of boxers locked in combat in some basement room below a main stage filled with (teens?) partying to Harry Styles is symbolic or emblematic of anything, but I think its kind of funny given the subject of this thread.
Either way that's kind of all I have to contribute over and above the observation that "right-wing" aging rockstar has been kind of cultural fixture since at least early in the Reagan administration.
posted by eagles123 at 8:57 PM on October 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure if the ideas of boxers locked in combat in some basement room below a main stage filled with (teens?) partying to Harry Styles is symbolic or emblematic of anything, but I think its kind of funny given the subject of this thread.
Either way that's kind of all I have to contribute over and above the observation that "right-wing" aging rockstar has been kind of cultural fixture since at least early in the Reagan administration.
posted by eagles123 at 8:57 PM on October 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
Saying "jazz has no presence in popular culture" is, frankly, a very White perspective on things. Yeah, sure, there's no "jazz" hard bop or big band swing records hitting the top of the pop charts, but a ton of the Black musicians creating popular culture right this minute know damn well what jazz is and use it every day.
I think one could argue than a lot of mainstream rap does have less direct connection to jazz than it used to, and also that a lot of current rappers actually take some inspiration from rock, too (image but sound, too e.g. all the pop punk/00s emo/even metal influenced rap now). Or electronic music for that matter. But I'm not saying the jazz is gone, either, obviously there are artists who very proudly carry that banner and are also popular.
posted by atoxyl at 9:48 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
I think one could argue than a lot of mainstream rap does have less direct connection to jazz than it used to, and also that a lot of current rappers actually take some inspiration from rock, too (image but sound, too e.g. all the pop punk/00s emo/even metal influenced rap now). Or electronic music for that matter. But I'm not saying the jazz is gone, either, obviously there are artists who very proudly carry that banner and are also popular.
posted by atoxyl at 9:48 PM on October 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
Rolling Stone (By David Browne)
Eric Clapton went from setting the standard for rock guitar to making ‘full-tilt’ racist rants to becoming an outspoken vaccine skeptic. Did he change? Or was he always like this ?
So "slow hand" might have always been "slow mind"?
posted by StickyCarpet at 9:51 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
Eric Clapton went from setting the standard for rock guitar to making ‘full-tilt’ racist rants to becoming an outspoken vaccine skeptic. Did he change? Or was he always like this ?
So "slow hand" might have always been "slow mind"?
posted by StickyCarpet at 9:51 PM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
Harry Styles's first solo album came out in 2017. Timothée Chalamet's breakthrough film, Call Me By Your Name came out in 2017. BTS has their first US hit album and tour in 2017. If anything, Trump lead to the rise of the softboy.
Can you blame women for embracing men who don't hate them?
posted by davidwitteveen at 9:52 PM on October 31, 2021 [26 favorites]
Can you blame women for embracing men who don't hate them?
posted by davidwitteveen at 9:52 PM on October 31, 2021 [26 favorites]
Having said that, I have sort of an alternate theory that Country will be the vector by which guitar music remains a cultural force.
Country is an ever-shifting, ominvorous genre that absorbs influences from all over, and these days, it sounds more like classic rock than anything else.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:18 PM on October 31, 2021 [8 favorites]
Country is an ever-shifting, ominvorous genre that absorbs influences from all over, and these days, it sounds more like classic rock than anything else.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:18 PM on October 31, 2021 [8 favorites]
I think one could argue than a lot of mainstream rap does have less direct connection to jazz than it used to
Yeah, the jazz influence in hip-hop peaked about 25-30 years ago, I think. Contemporary hip-hop, to the admittedly limited extent I'm familiar with it, seems most influenced by electronic music.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:20 PM on October 31, 2021
Yeah, the jazz influence in hip-hop peaked about 25-30 years ago, I think. Contemporary hip-hop, to the admittedly limited extent I'm familiar with it, seems most influenced by electronic music.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:20 PM on October 31, 2021
The Icy Hot Stuntaz are having colonoscopies by now and no one cares about beats with upright bass samples......getting old for suckas
posted by thelonius at 11:32 PM on October 31, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 11:32 PM on October 31, 2021 [8 favorites]
Thank you Zymil!
White boy rock might be struggling in the US, but a rock band kicked ass at Eurovision and their album is chart topping everywhere. I listen to a lot of rock, and there's plenty being released now.
posted by Braeburn at 12:13 AM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
White boy rock might be struggling in the US, but a rock band kicked ass at Eurovision and their album is chart topping everywhere. I listen to a lot of rock, and there's plenty being released now.
posted by Braeburn at 12:13 AM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Freddie Mercury was about as androgynous as Rob Halford, i.e., not in the least.
posted by acb at 2:41 AM on November 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by acb at 2:41 AM on November 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Freddie Mercury was about as androgynous as Rob Halford, i.e., not in the least.
I was thinking of glam-rock era early-70s Freddie, who was definitely a dandy.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:57 AM on November 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
I was thinking of glam-rock era early-70s Freddie, who was definitely a dandy.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:57 AM on November 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
Eh. This argument was based out in that pretty awful book “Rock and the pop narcotic”. I’d look up the author but it’s not worth reading really. The main thesis of the book is that pop is feminine and queer and rock is masculine and straight. And that only one of those two ideas is good. Which was and is bullshit.
posted by awfurby at 4:29 AM on November 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by awfurby at 4:29 AM on November 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Given the history of rock'n'roll and its precursors, that idea makes as much sense as the one that the 1950s nuclear family is a timeless ideal for living in accordance with immutable natural laws.
posted by acb at 4:50 AM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 4:50 AM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
This in my opinion is yet another disconnect considering that rap song Let's Go Brandon (Fuck Joe Biden) by Bryson Gray is the #2 (previous #1) on Apple Itunes download listing. Maybe that's not Billboard Top 40, but it's not nothing either. Rap isn't some bastion of Democratic values anymore. Rock being the genre for Republicans died 20 years ago.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:17 AM on November 1, 2021
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:17 AM on November 1, 2021
Also Notorious BIG died like 3 years after Kurt Cobain. He's classic rap now. Contemporary rap is Kanye West, also a noted Republican.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:20 AM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:20 AM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Those 'what is a soft boy?' articles that the OP links to are from the time before someone articulated the concept of making up a guy in your head and then getting extremely mad at that guy you made up. But hoo boy we needed a name for that.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:26 AM on November 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 7:26 AM on November 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
"soft boys" seems to be a largely western concept, so including BTS in this discussion only really applies to the American context and lens; the shift in the type of masculinity it emphasizes (largely heterosexual, but with self-aware emotionality and attention to aesthetics) has been in Korea since the turn of the century. indeed, there's a term for it that's been applied since the late 90s: "꽃미남", or "beautiful flower man".
a lot of that shift was concurrent with the IMF crisis (1997-1998) and the great recession (2007-2009): the rough and tumble men who built the country in the ashes of war, and who were prioritized in policies and patriarchal beliefs were confronted with issues they could not resolve, and women ended up bearing a lot of the costs.
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:49 AM on November 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
a lot of that shift was concurrent with the IMF crisis (1997-1998) and the great recession (2007-2009): the rough and tumble men who built the country in the ashes of war, and who were prioritized in policies and patriarchal beliefs were confronted with issues they could not resolve, and women ended up bearing a lot of the costs.
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:49 AM on November 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
one thing to note, the rise of the flower men also led to the rise of bitter incels/anti-feminists in korea a few years later who reject some of those traits; there are real grievances in terms of mandatory conscription, work, opportunity, and the like, that have been twisted by right-wing groups to point frustrated young men against women and minorities.
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:55 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:55 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've been thinking more about the whole "Freddie Mercury and Rob Halford aren't androgynous" comment - and it's lead the mind down some interesting paths.
So this article is basically claiming that this kind of doubling-down on masculinity is a reaction to the rise of more androgynous men entering the limelight, and that those on the right are sort of flocking around that as a backlash to other societal changes. I mentioned in my earlier comment that Freddie Mercury was overlooked in a video I saw about androgyny in rock music - but acb reminded me that Freddie also adopted a more traditionally masculine look at a later point.
However, I wonder if the reason that Freddie and Rob Halford took on this look may be a backlash of a different kind - "oh, you want me to stop dressing up and 'act like a real man'? Okay, I'll just go HYPER-manly, that should shut you up while I still do what I wanna, so there." There's a sort of exaggeration to it that calls attention to how much of a performative thing it is for everyone anyway.
Or maybe I've just been listening to Joe Jackson's Real Men too much.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:55 AM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
So this article is basically claiming that this kind of doubling-down on masculinity is a reaction to the rise of more androgynous men entering the limelight, and that those on the right are sort of flocking around that as a backlash to other societal changes. I mentioned in my earlier comment that Freddie Mercury was overlooked in a video I saw about androgyny in rock music - but acb reminded me that Freddie also adopted a more traditionally masculine look at a later point.
However, I wonder if the reason that Freddie and Rob Halford took on this look may be a backlash of a different kind - "oh, you want me to stop dressing up and 'act like a real man'? Okay, I'll just go HYPER-manly, that should shut you up while I still do what I wanna, so there." There's a sort of exaggeration to it that calls attention to how much of a performative thing it is for everyone anyway.
Or maybe I've just been listening to Joe Jackson's Real Men too much.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:55 AM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm curious how old the author is. As a late Gen-Xer, I have no idea what the demographics of Harry Styles concerts are but the little bit of exposure I have to him reminds me of the boy band scene. I certainly remember the trope of "the sensitive one" going back to NKOTB from personal experience (and I'm certain it goes back _much_ further) as well as bro-rock appealing to the young Republican set of the late 80s/early 90s. And the fans of the latter raging against the former.
Just what's considered acceptable for sensitive men has moved since then. Similarly, I think it's that the politics of the listeners of bro-rock have swerved harder right more than that the performers have, the pandering of the washed up singer of Staind aside.
posted by Candleman at 9:03 AM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Just what's considered acceptable for sensitive men has moved since then. Similarly, I think it's that the politics of the listeners of bro-rock have swerved harder right more than that the performers have, the pandering of the washed up singer of Staind aside.
posted by Candleman at 9:03 AM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't know much about Rob Halford but I always assumed his look was an extension of his sexuality. It's a pretty classic gay leather daddy style.
posted by cakelite at 9:04 AM on November 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 9:04 AM on November 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
The 2000s gave us the Strokes, Interpol, and Arcade Fire, but I dunno if any of those debut albums are "essential".
The sheer size of the back catalog of music available online means there will never be an essential album in any genre ever again.
posted by ocschwar at 9:06 AM on November 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
The sheer size of the back catalog of music available online means there will never be an essential album in any genre ever again.
posted by ocschwar at 9:06 AM on November 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think a lot of the decline in rock has to do with the fact that, these days, it's possible to make and distribute music all by yourself right from home. This favors more electronic music. Having a rock band with multiple members is much more complicated and who knows how much it costs to rent a practice space these days.
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:16 AM on November 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:16 AM on November 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Instead of the "softboy" being a New Thing Taking Over Music, I'd argue that it's always been there from the word jump, and people have always swung from one to the other throughout history.
except the softboys of the 1970s, the heroes of Glam -- Bowie, New York Dolls, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, T-Rex, Mott The Hoople, Alice Cooper -- they all rocked damned hard. Queerness and softness had pretty much zero to do with each other for a prolonged while, which was a great lesson to learn while in one's middle school years.
Or basically, what DrMew already said a while back:
the presumption that you can't simultaneously be tough and androgynous is tired. Androgyny and softness are not equivalent things (which is not to say that being soft and tender is in any way less worthy of respect than being tough--it's just that androgyny comes in all sorts of flavors).
posted by philip-random at 9:46 AM on November 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
Listen to any hip hop album and you WILL hear jazz, in one form or another, whether its a sample or in the rhythmic style of an MC like Notorious B.I.G. And for whatever it is worth, there are probably more young people learning to play jazz (via high school and university music programs) and rock (via places like the School of Rock) than ever before in history.
it was one of Marshal McLuhan's core tenets. That when it comes to culture, nothing ever really goes away. But things do cycle and, often as not, when a once popular "thing" re-cycles, it comes back in disguise ... for various reasons, a key one being that the culture has evolved, so something different, perhaps subversive, is required of this "thing" now ...
posted by philip-random at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2021
it was one of Marshal McLuhan's core tenets. That when it comes to culture, nothing ever really goes away. But things do cycle and, often as not, when a once popular "thing" re-cycles, it comes back in disguise ... for various reasons, a key one being that the culture has evolved, so something different, perhaps subversive, is required of this "thing" now ...
posted by philip-random at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2021
I don't know much about Rob Halford but I always assumed his look was an extension of his sexuality. It's a pretty classic gay leather daddy style.
Yep! He's said in numerous interviews that having his look being taken as presumptively heteronormative was something he had a pretty good laugh over at the time. He was sort of daring people to call the question, but in many cases, the question never even occurred to them.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
Yep! He's said in numerous interviews that having his look being taken as presumptively heteronormative was something he had a pretty good laugh over at the time. He was sort of daring people to call the question, but in many cases, the question never even occurred to them.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
"Remember, you are all nice boys! Except maybe you..."
- Mr. White (Tom Hanks), That Thing You Do!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:56 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
- Mr. White (Tom Hanks), That Thing You Do!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:56 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
no one cares about beats with upright bass samples......getting old for suckas
Someone's never listened to Kendrick Lamar
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:06 AM on November 1, 2021
Someone's never listened to Kendrick Lamar
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:06 AM on November 1, 2021
I've been thinking more about the whole "Freddie Mercury and Rob Halford aren't androgynous" comment
Also Priest's early pre-studded-leather years exist, and for e.g. the (initially) whimsy laden Dreamer Deceiver (Old Grey Whistle Test/YouTube).
Yep! He's said in numerous interviews that having his look being taken as presumptively heteronormative was something he had a pretty good laugh over at the time.
Also that it's a look he explicitly copied from the underground club scene.
posted by Buntix at 10:15 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also Priest's early pre-studded-leather years exist, and for e.g. the (initially) whimsy laden Dreamer Deceiver (Old Grey Whistle Test/YouTube).
Yep! He's said in numerous interviews that having his look being taken as presumptively heteronormative was something he had a pretty good laugh over at the time.
Also that it's a look he explicitly copied from the underground club scene.
posted by Buntix at 10:15 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also, jazz has developed just a weeee bit since Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington. They even use electric instruments now!
My own hobbyhorse on this subject is that almost all forms of American pop music are essentially off-shoots of Jazz/Blues mixed with other traditional forms, but that's for another discussion
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
My own hobbyhorse on this subject is that almost all forms of American pop music are essentially off-shoots of Jazz/Blues mixed with other traditional forms, but that's for another discussion
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't know much about Rob Halford but I always assumed his look was an extension of his sexuality. It's a pretty classic gay leather daddy style
Halford’s line was always that he wasn’t really personally a leather guy, he just borrowed the look (but that included getting a lot of the outfits and paraphernalia directly from people in the scene).
By the way check out the song “Raw Deal.” Priest had lyrics rather directly about a gay bar hookup - namechecking Fire Island! - 20 years before Halford came out publicly. I think it got harder for him to be that bold about it as the 80s rolled around and the band got bigger.
posted by atoxyl at 10:41 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Halford’s line was always that he wasn’t really personally a leather guy, he just borrowed the look (but that included getting a lot of the outfits and paraphernalia directly from people in the scene).
By the way check out the song “Raw Deal.” Priest had lyrics rather directly about a gay bar hookup - namechecking Fire Island! - 20 years before Halford came out publicly. I think it got harder for him to be that bold about it as the 80s rolled around and the band got bigger.
posted by atoxyl at 10:41 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't know much about Rob Halford but I always assumed his look was an extension of his sexuality. It's a pretty classic gay leather daddy style.
Right - this is what I was clumsily trying to get at, was that this leather style itself is a sort of clapback against heteronormativity, you know? To go on:
... the softboys of the 1970s, the heroes of Glam -- Bowie, New York Dolls, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, T-Rex, Mott The Hoople, Alice Cooper -- they all rocked damned hard. Queerness and softness had pretty much zero to do with each other for a prolonged while, which was a great lesson to learn while in one's middle school years.
Again, yep. The video I linked to above pointed this very thing out - that the heroes of Glam adopted this glam style as a clapback against the Don-Draper model of masculine dress.
This is something I dimly remember from a course on human sexuality about 30 years ago now, but - the glam style and the leather style are a couple of different counterculture critiques of the uber-50s heteronormantivity:
* The Glam style is a clapback against "men wear gray flannel suits and they don't wear makeup and they don't wear colors and they don't wear spangly floral stuff and if you DO wear that kind of stuff you're not a real man". The Glam response to that is "oh yeah? Okay, listen to how hard I can rock out, even though I'm rocking a feather boa and make up and nail polish and rhinestones all over my shirt, that's how awesome a man I am!"
* And the clapback with Leather Style might be about "Oh, so you say you want me to dress like a man? Fine, I'm going to go a step further and wear all leather like I'm Marlon Brando in The Wild One and I'll be a gay guy who looks even tougher than you, Mr. Straight Guy!"
You know? It's taking the very narrow definition of what a "real man" is "supposed" to look like and act like, and turning some of that on its head - and by doing so, pointing out how narrow a definition it is.
Not that I'm saying that these kinds of counterculture clapbacks are intentional - it's not like Freddy Mercury or Harry Styles or any of these guys were all "lo, I will hereby subvert the heteronormative impression of masculinity in this manner" and planned it out. More like the opposite - men feeling constrained by one aspect of that definition saw someone else subvert things in a particular way and were all, "okay, yeah, that looks way better than having to do this one stupid thing, I'mma do that."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:43 AM on November 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
Right - this is what I was clumsily trying to get at, was that this leather style itself is a sort of clapback against heteronormativity, you know? To go on:
... the softboys of the 1970s, the heroes of Glam -- Bowie, New York Dolls, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, T-Rex, Mott The Hoople, Alice Cooper -- they all rocked damned hard. Queerness and softness had pretty much zero to do with each other for a prolonged while, which was a great lesson to learn while in one's middle school years.
Again, yep. The video I linked to above pointed this very thing out - that the heroes of Glam adopted this glam style as a clapback against the Don-Draper model of masculine dress.
This is something I dimly remember from a course on human sexuality about 30 years ago now, but - the glam style and the leather style are a couple of different counterculture critiques of the uber-50s heteronormantivity:
* The Glam style is a clapback against "men wear gray flannel suits and they don't wear makeup and they don't wear colors and they don't wear spangly floral stuff and if you DO wear that kind of stuff you're not a real man". The Glam response to that is "oh yeah? Okay, listen to how hard I can rock out, even though I'm rocking a feather boa and make up and nail polish and rhinestones all over my shirt, that's how awesome a man I am!"
* And the clapback with Leather Style might be about "Oh, so you say you want me to dress like a man? Fine, I'm going to go a step further and wear all leather like I'm Marlon Brando in The Wild One and I'll be a gay guy who looks even tougher than you, Mr. Straight Guy!"
You know? It's taking the very narrow definition of what a "real man" is "supposed" to look like and act like, and turning some of that on its head - and by doing so, pointing out how narrow a definition it is.
Not that I'm saying that these kinds of counterculture clapbacks are intentional - it's not like Freddy Mercury or Harry Styles or any of these guys were all "lo, I will hereby subvert the heteronormative impression of masculinity in this manner" and planned it out. More like the opposite - men feeling constrained by one aspect of that definition saw someone else subvert things in a particular way and were all, "okay, yeah, that looks way better than having to do this one stupid thing, I'mma do that."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:43 AM on November 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
This thread has made wonder about how Lou Reed fits into this (admittedly oversimplified) paradigm of softboy vs toxic jerk classification. He projected a toxic jerk image (and undoubtedly was a toxic jerk a lot of the time) yet some of his songs of his are among the most tender, sensitive, and emotionally astute songs I've ever heard, especially when it comes to the queer Warhol scene he wrote a lot about.
posted by treepour at 10:53 AM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by treepour at 10:53 AM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Here is 10 Hours Of Procedurally Generated Djent, in which a human rather skillfully plays 10 hours of djent that was procedurally composed by a program the human also wrote.
Is it culturally relevant, no, but who cares? Rock is far from dead, as many here have pointed out.
Despite it coming from Politico, which I know as the unit of measurement on Pod Save America's semi-regular feature "Bad Take Appreciators", in which the hosts rank bad takes on a scale of 1-5 Politicos, a podcast which Left Youtube/Twitter in turn universally use as the benchmark for bad liberal political takes, I do agree with the article's broad take that we are living in the moment of the softboy and that the hypermasculine hard rock of yore has is out of the cultural mainstream. And you know, that's fine. I showed the music video of The Realest by Issues to a friend and her reaction, ver batim, was "I want to punch these people. I hate them."
But like a lot of people have also pointed out here, we're past the moment where gatekeepers and media choke points can dictate the mainstream. Anybody can make music in their bedrooms and upload it. Cool.
I think the article is grasping at the implications of the new ease of music distribution + the culture war. Music and politics have always flirted, but the barriers to getting it out meant it was always still a little walled-off and insulated from the news cycle, and the memorable exceptions were when material conditions allowed circumventing existing distribution architecture (folk as protest music because it's just a guitar, rap as social commentary because tapes & samples). Musicians were the priestesses at Delphi, and you had to go up into the mountains and visit to hear the omens from Apollo. But now, Apollo is talking to everybody, and the priestesses are in the street. That is new. And musicians, politicians, and culture warriors are only starting to realize that the culture war can have a soundtrack now...even the reactionary side of it, who traditionally haven't.
Some musicians will seek out a culture war audience. Political parties may hijack genres for a few years. Obnoxiously loud reactionaries will seek out obnoxiously loud genres. Songs as op-eds will probably be ubiquitous.
Softboy/flower man/whatever we call that aesthetic, when it gets the knives out, can cut deep, as recently proven by "Fragile", the Namewee/Kimberly Chen duet. Literal chart-topper. Ouch.
And then "authenticity" will make a big comeback and all will be in equilibrium again. And 10 hours of procedurally generated djent will still be there when it does.
posted by saysthis at 11:31 AM on November 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
Is it culturally relevant, no, but who cares? Rock is far from dead, as many here have pointed out.
Despite it coming from Politico, which I know as the unit of measurement on Pod Save America's semi-regular feature "Bad Take Appreciators", in which the hosts rank bad takes on a scale of 1-5 Politicos, a podcast which Left Youtube/Twitter in turn universally use as the benchmark for bad liberal political takes, I do agree with the article's broad take that we are living in the moment of the softboy and that the hypermasculine hard rock of yore has is out of the cultural mainstream. And you know, that's fine. I showed the music video of The Realest by Issues to a friend and her reaction, ver batim, was "I want to punch these people. I hate them."
But like a lot of people have also pointed out here, we're past the moment where gatekeepers and media choke points can dictate the mainstream. Anybody can make music in their bedrooms and upload it. Cool.
I think the article is grasping at the implications of the new ease of music distribution + the culture war. Music and politics have always flirted, but the barriers to getting it out meant it was always still a little walled-off and insulated from the news cycle, and the memorable exceptions were when material conditions allowed circumventing existing distribution architecture (folk as protest music because it's just a guitar, rap as social commentary because tapes & samples). Musicians were the priestesses at Delphi, and you had to go up into the mountains and visit to hear the omens from Apollo. But now, Apollo is talking to everybody, and the priestesses are in the street. That is new. And musicians, politicians, and culture warriors are only starting to realize that the culture war can have a soundtrack now...even the reactionary side of it, who traditionally haven't.
Some musicians will seek out a culture war audience. Political parties may hijack genres for a few years. Obnoxiously loud reactionaries will seek out obnoxiously loud genres. Songs as op-eds will probably be ubiquitous.
Softboy/flower man/whatever we call that aesthetic, when it gets the knives out, can cut deep, as recently proven by "Fragile", the Namewee/Kimberly Chen duet. Literal chart-topper. Ouch.
And then "authenticity" will make a big comeback and all will be in equilibrium again. And 10 hours of procedurally generated djent will still be there when it does.
posted by saysthis at 11:31 AM on November 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
I forgot to add this half-hour Majority Report interview with Jason Myles Goss on what Kurt Cobain has to do with today's online discourse on the left. They do a pretty good breakdown of how the material conditions for music then and now are different, and the impact of that on political discourse. Not sure I agree with everything they say, but it's a thinker.
posted by saysthis at 11:42 AM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by saysthis at 11:42 AM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
This thread has made wonder about how Lou Reed fits into this (admittedly oversimplified) paradigm of softboy vs toxic jerk classification.....
I think the fact that this is oversimplified is one of the roots of this paradigm - this is an oversimplified article, but it is responding to a view that is itself oversimplified ("real men are like this").
There's more than one way to "be a man" - just like there's more than one way to be a woman, and just like there's more than one way to be a human. And some people have a real problem with that sometimes, and periodically society freaks out and tries to rein those "ways of being" in somewhat - and then you get people pushing back at that because they've just been excluded by those "ways of being" because they don't fit.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:43 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think the fact that this is oversimplified is one of the roots of this paradigm - this is an oversimplified article, but it is responding to a view that is itself oversimplified ("real men are like this").
There's more than one way to "be a man" - just like there's more than one way to be a woman, and just like there's more than one way to be a human. And some people have a real problem with that sometimes, and periodically society freaks out and tries to rein those "ways of being" in somewhat - and then you get people pushing back at that because they've just been excluded by those "ways of being" because they don't fit.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:43 AM on November 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
There are a lot of great rock records out there. There is probably a great rock record that came out today or will be recorded tomorrow or is being written right now. I just ordered an irresponsible number of rock records three days ago, and only one was a reissue (thank you Numero Group for bringing Seam back). There are still new rock records being played on college radio. There are still new rock records being played on public radio, on mainstream radio etc. I can't imagine thinking there hasn't been a great rock record since 2000 or 1980 or whatever. I mean, there's so much music out there to listen to, so much possibility. Sometimes I get stressed out that I might miss something, especially now that I'm out of the biz, so to speak.
Here's a recent one that's hit me pretty hard, if you're looking for something new.
Anyway, this was a mostly silly article, which among many other things (the absence of rap, as noted above), also seems to miss--typical-- how much rock music is being made by women. Also didn't we have this whole soft boy conversation back when Kurt Cobain wore a dress in 1993? And remember emo? Did I dream it or wasn't Jimmy Eat World or whatever on MTV around the same time that Fred Durst was instigating sexual assault at Woodstock 99? Didn't we have a softboy "crisis" over Green Day wearing eyeliner around that time too?
posted by thivaia at 11:56 AM on November 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
Here's a recent one that's hit me pretty hard, if you're looking for something new.
Anyway, this was a mostly silly article, which among many other things (the absence of rap, as noted above), also seems to miss--typical-- how much rock music is being made by women. Also didn't we have this whole soft boy conversation back when Kurt Cobain wore a dress in 1993? And remember emo? Did I dream it or wasn't Jimmy Eat World or whatever on MTV around the same time that Fred Durst was instigating sexual assault at Woodstock 99? Didn't we have a softboy "crisis" over Green Day wearing eyeliner around that time too?
posted by thivaia at 11:56 AM on November 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
Love that "garage rock" is apparently an update that serves "coastal markets," given that a big part of the revival came from Detroit (eg White Stripes), which, yeah, is the most "coastal" of the lower 48, but, uh, third coastal.
(Also, shout-out to my autocorrect for deciding that instead of "coastal," I meant "costal," which is, yes, also a word, but I'm not really familiar with costal rock markets.)
posted by klangklangston at 1:06 PM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
(Also, shout-out to my autocorrect for deciding that instead of "coastal," I meant "costal," which is, yes, also a word, but I'm not really familiar with costal rock markets.)
posted by klangklangston at 1:06 PM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Love that "garage rock" is apparently an update that serves "coastal markets," given that a big part of the revival came from Detroit (eg White Stripes), which, yeah, is the most "coastal" of the lower 48, but, uh, third coastal.
This too. Also Memphis (GONER RECORDS!) and Nashville. And a bunch of bands from Texas and Ohio and most of what Fat Possum put out there for a minute. Including the Black Keys, who became a genuinely Big Rock Band that (for a while at least--I haven't checked in a while) had that whole blue collar, denim jacket, rust belt schtick built into their identity and were set as the "manly" alternative for music fans that couldn't handle the comparatively twee affectation of, like, The Decemberists or Vampire Weekend.
Ugh, this article.
posted by thivaia at 2:09 PM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
This too. Also Memphis (GONER RECORDS!) and Nashville. And a bunch of bands from Texas and Ohio and most of what Fat Possum put out there for a minute. Including the Black Keys, who became a genuinely Big Rock Band that (for a while at least--I haven't checked in a while) had that whole blue collar, denim jacket, rust belt schtick built into their identity and were set as the "manly" alternative for music fans that couldn't handle the comparatively twee affectation of, like, The Decemberists or Vampire Weekend.
Ugh, this article.
posted by thivaia at 2:09 PM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also, jazz has developed just a weeee bit since Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington. They even use electric instruments now!
Well, guitar. The people who play straight ahead jazz don't have any interest in playing with electric bassists, for the most part*. Janek Gwizdala said this: let's say there are couple of thousand upright bassists in NYC. At the top you have Ron Carter, Christian McBride.......down at the bottom you have people who just OWN a bass; they can't even play it. They are going to call those guys before they call an electric bass player. At least the band will look right.....
I don't think showing up at a session like that with a Rhodes is going to go over well, either.
*Yes Bob Cranshaw with Sonny Rollins, I know
posted by thelonius at 3:40 PM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Well, guitar. The people who play straight ahead jazz don't have any interest in playing with electric bassists, for the most part*. Janek Gwizdala said this: let's say there are couple of thousand upright bassists in NYC. At the top you have Ron Carter, Christian McBride.......down at the bottom you have people who just OWN a bass; they can't even play it. They are going to call those guys before they call an electric bass player. At least the band will look right.....
I don't think showing up at a session like that with a Rhodes is going to go over well, either.
*Yes Bob Cranshaw with Sonny Rollins, I know
posted by thelonius at 3:40 PM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Morrissey has been right wing for decades now
I sometimes listen to eighties playlists on spotify while running and recently been getting a lot of Smiths. I realized Morrissey was always telling us exactly who he was and it is right there in the Smiths lyrics over and over.
posted by srboisvert at 4:12 PM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I sometimes listen to eighties playlists on spotify while running and recently been getting a lot of Smiths. I realized Morrissey was always telling us exactly who he was and it is right there in the Smiths lyrics over and over.
posted by srboisvert at 4:12 PM on November 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
A songwriter whose entire thing was curdled resentment for not getting what he believed himself entitled to going over to the far right? I, for one, did Nazi that coming.
posted by acb at 4:20 PM on November 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by acb at 4:20 PM on November 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
Wasn’t Smiths-era Morrissey at least a proto softboy?
posted by Selena777 at 5:12 PM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 5:12 PM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Holy Crap.
I've actually just read the original article (TBH this is the place I come to for the Meta-analysis that means I don't have to). AND WTAF. I had been assuming it was just about the cockrock/yachtrock genre. But it painting with the broadest stupid ahistorical brush.
It's like I felt the Rob Halford references were probably a bit off as he and the band just were not in that category. The NWOBHM is hella (at least half) softboy. Damn sure I wasam one back when. It was not tory jocks wrote T̤h̤e̤ ̤B̤o̤o̤k̤ of Taliesyn.
It is not even the tiniest bit true. That said IIRC there was an article about how one of the Beastie Boys was a massive young republican Reagan fan who took great glee in stamping on a cockroach.
*hot tip for any politico writer looking for something to wring a moment of vague misunderstood outrage of*
posted by Buntix at 5:13 PM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've actually just read the original article (TBH this is the place I come to for the Meta-analysis that means I don't have to). AND WTAF. I had been assuming it was just about the cockrock/yachtrock genre. But it painting with the broadest stupid ahistorical brush.
It's like I felt the Rob Halford references were probably a bit off as he and the band just were not in that category. The NWOBHM is hella (at least half) softboy. Damn sure I wasam one back when. It was not tory jocks wrote T̤h̤e̤ ̤B̤o̤o̤k̤ of Taliesyn.
It is not even the tiniest bit true. That said IIRC there was an article about how one of the Beastie Boys was a massive young republican Reagan fan who took great glee in stamping on a cockroach.
*hot tip for any politico writer looking for something to wring a moment of vague misunderstood outrage of*
posted by Buntix at 5:13 PM on November 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
The softly/agro comparison is such a false dichotomy that misses so much.
Not so long ago, the average man could not step outside in public, while displaying any garment or mannerism that crossed gender norms, and escape assault. I am really not exaggerating by much. And in that environment, any musician who wanted to be transgressive could do it just by reaching for a feather boa. It was a no brainer, and it was something you could do to broadcast a variety of opposing messages.
You could do it as part of a packaged J'accuse against society.
You could do it to announce "I'm a rock star, I can get away with this," which makes it an inherently aggressive posture, and potentially nothing more than narcissism. (See also, Dennis Rodman).
Or you could be Freddy Mercury, and do it to broadcast "I'm not supposed to feel comfortable in my own skin, and yet I do, and you deserve to feel this way too."
And then there are artists who deliberately present a hyper masculine image of themselves to do the exact opposite of what this article is talking about. I don't just mean being a rocker and a bleeding heart. Behold Henry Rollins: lots of hypermasculine posturing packaged with unceasing advocacy for gay rights and against all bullying. Or Garth Brooks.
So, yes, there are artists who are pandering to the MAGA demographic because there is money to be made. It doesn't really have anything to do with softboy-ness or its opposite.
posted by ocschwar at 8:40 PM on November 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
Not so long ago, the average man could not step outside in public, while displaying any garment or mannerism that crossed gender norms, and escape assault. I am really not exaggerating by much. And in that environment, any musician who wanted to be transgressive could do it just by reaching for a feather boa. It was a no brainer, and it was something you could do to broadcast a variety of opposing messages.
You could do it as part of a packaged J'accuse against society.
You could do it to announce "I'm a rock star, I can get away with this," which makes it an inherently aggressive posture, and potentially nothing more than narcissism. (See also, Dennis Rodman).
Or you could be Freddy Mercury, and do it to broadcast "I'm not supposed to feel comfortable in my own skin, and yet I do, and you deserve to feel this way too."
And then there are artists who deliberately present a hyper masculine image of themselves to do the exact opposite of what this article is talking about. I don't just mean being a rocker and a bleeding heart. Behold Henry Rollins: lots of hypermasculine posturing packaged with unceasing advocacy for gay rights and against all bullying. Or Garth Brooks.
So, yes, there are artists who are pandering to the MAGA demographic because there is money to be made. It doesn't really have anything to do with softboy-ness or its opposite.
posted by ocschwar at 8:40 PM on November 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
So I was listening to the American Music Award nominees as a Freegal playlist (I heart my public library) and totally dug this song by Måneskin, who, are an rock band formed in Rome in 2016 who became famous thanks to the Italian talent show X Factor. Good job Politico writer because now I want to listen to rock music???
posted by spamandkimchi at 6:16 PM on November 2, 2021
posted by spamandkimchi at 6:16 PM on November 2, 2021
And the clapback with Leather Style might be about "Oh, so you say you want me to dress like a man? Fine, I'm going to go a step further and wear all leather like I'm Marlon Brando in The Wild One and I'll be a gay guy who looks even tougher than you, Mr. Straight Guy!"
that's
not
what it's about
this is not, how shall one say, a sexy, or even sexual, imaginary inner monologue.
speculating all gay male sexuality & style down into different varietals of "clapbacks" and camp and saucy head-tosses at some Mister Man is not really worth the doing, I don't think. and I a woman who says it, and perhaps shouldn't. but then again maybe what I shouldn't do is say it so mildly.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:57 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
that's
not
what it's about
this is not, how shall one say, a sexy, or even sexual, imaginary inner monologue.
speculating all gay male sexuality & style down into different varietals of "clapbacks" and camp and saucy head-tosses at some Mister Man is not really worth the doing, I don't think. and I a woman who says it, and perhaps shouldn't. but then again maybe what I shouldn't do is say it so mildly.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:57 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
speculating all gay male sexuality & style down into different varietals of "clapbacks" and camp and saucy head-tosses at some Mister Man is not really worth the doing
I'm going to say, as someone who was a part of the early Bear community and who observed it when it was actually a bit of a political movement/rebellion within mainstream gay culture at the time... The entire "yeah, I look butch and talk butch and do butch things, but I suck cock like an eager machine" was totally a play-against-type that the bears were doing from the beginning. You throw in the whole Tom Of Finland vibe, and a lot of other tropes, and you BET there was a clap-back going on. It was gender-bending taken in a different direction, if you want to look at it through that lens.
Now, whether that's still being done today, I cannot tell you. I've been doing my own version of "butch drag" for so long it's really uncomfortable for me to wear much else, so it's just the me that I am. Is it drag at that point? Is it a clap-back at that point? I have no idea. Identity is a strange beast, and can blend with presentation in a myriad of ways.
posted by hippybear at 8:34 PM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm going to say, as someone who was a part of the early Bear community and who observed it when it was actually a bit of a political movement/rebellion within mainstream gay culture at the time... The entire "yeah, I look butch and talk butch and do butch things, but I suck cock like an eager machine" was totally a play-against-type that the bears were doing from the beginning. You throw in the whole Tom Of Finland vibe, and a lot of other tropes, and you BET there was a clap-back going on. It was gender-bending taken in a different direction, if you want to look at it through that lens.
Now, whether that's still being done today, I cannot tell you. I've been doing my own version of "butch drag" for so long it's really uncomfortable for me to wear much else, so it's just the me that I am. Is it drag at that point? Is it a clap-back at that point? I have no idea. Identity is a strange beast, and can blend with presentation in a myriad of ways.
posted by hippybear at 8:34 PM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
queen of bythnia - I think you may have missed where I said that none of that clap-back was necessarily consciously thought.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:58 AM on November 4, 2021
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:58 AM on November 4, 2021
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posted by scruss at 1:57 PM on October 31, 2021 [26 favorites]