The United Sceptics of America
November 2, 2021 4:57 PM Subscribe
Red and Blue Americans are baffled by each other. Each tends to characterize the other as a monolith. But we both share something bigger than ourselves: A government that we have little faith in. The two sides blame each other for this state of affairs, but we shouldn’t “underplay the extent to which the American political system was designed by people who were distrustful of government.”
“Lack of trust does not correlate with apathy.” In fact, “[h]ighly educated people count skepticism a virtue. They typically would not report that they trust government, or any social institution, “most of the time.” What seems to make educated people uncomfortable, though, is the idea that the mass public shares this skepticism.”
That mass includes the religious right, “Christians [who] have not been taught to think of God working through secular institutions,” which is one of the reasons parables of the drowning man have not been a particularly effective tool for convincing unvaxxed Christian sceptics to get vaxxed. But not all of the anti-vaxxers are religious. Those who lack faith in government, sometimes also lack faith in government-backed science:
“Lack of trust does not correlate with apathy.” In fact, “[h]ighly educated people count skepticism a virtue. They typically would not report that they trust government, or any social institution, “most of the time.” What seems to make educated people uncomfortable, though, is the idea that the mass public shares this skepticism.”
That mass includes the religious right, “Christians [who] have not been taught to think of God working through secular institutions,” which is one of the reasons parables of the drowning man have not been a particularly effective tool for convincing unvaxxed Christian sceptics to get vaxxed. But not all of the anti-vaxxers are religious. Those who lack faith in government, sometimes also lack faith in government-backed science:
In March longtime Republican pollster Frank Luntz led a focus group with Trump voters. Many of them stressed that they were not “anti-vaxxers” who opposed all vaccines. Nor were they “COVID deniers.” They acknowledged that the disease was real; many had family and friends who had had it, and some had been ill themselves. But they were suspicious of the federal government and had a sense that science was often oversold.Finally, there are those without access: to Google, to healthcare, to childcare, to an easily accessible vaccination site. But one of the founders of the national vax outreach campaign The Conversation, in which Black and Latino health-care workers provide information (and dispel misinformation) about the vaccines, told Ed Yong in America Is Getting Unvaccinated People All Wrong that we ought to have more faith. “Often, I see an entire family on the other side of the screen—kids and grandparents. People come. They come in groups. They’re willing to be vulnerable. They have questions. And their questions are all ones we have answers for. It’s not undoable.”
I'd be curious to see a breakdown of Pew's measure of trust by naturalization category. The ethnicity data doesn't really get to this question directly. I know a lot of immigrants and first-generationers who became citizens, because they value this place more than where they came from — myself included. The feelings some have about how the country is trending (particularly on the part of those who are political refugees) would make it interesting to me to see how that measure has changed over the last few decades, and especially since Trump and the pandemic.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:57 PM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:57 PM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
At this point I don’t believe asking conservatives what they think provides any insight into their motivations or future actions.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:23 PM on November 2, 2021 [85 favorites]
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:23 PM on November 2, 2021 [85 favorites]
These headlines give me the biggest fucking headache:
"Americans not only divided, but baffled by what motivates their opponents"
The survey actually indicates that Democrats, on average, very clearly identify the motivation of most Republicans as a sincere belief in improving the country, while the exact opposite is true of Republicans' feelings about Democrats. Typical university press release headline writing, I guess.
"Are Liberals to Blame for Our Crisis of Faith In Government?" (oh fuck off, The New Yorker)
Article doesn't even ask that question; it does briefly review the arguments in a book about the origins of government distrust by progressives in the 60s and 70s, but spends a much larger share of the article reviewing another book's historical telling of, you know, the whole Civil Rights backlash from conservatives, followed by a crook President, followed by 40 years of concerted effort by Republicans to denounce government in all forms, followed by another crook President.
"The Reason Some Republicans Mistrust Science: Their Leaders Tell Them To"
Good headline, actually matches the content of the article. Must be a hard-hitting political periodical, from, let's see...[checks notes]...Scientific American.
Fucking hell.
posted by Room 101 at 6:49 PM on November 2, 2021 [67 favorites]
"Americans not only divided, but baffled by what motivates their opponents"
The survey actually indicates that Democrats, on average, very clearly identify the motivation of most Republicans as a sincere belief in improving the country, while the exact opposite is true of Republicans' feelings about Democrats. Typical university press release headline writing, I guess.
"Are Liberals to Blame for Our Crisis of Faith In Government?" (oh fuck off, The New Yorker)
Article doesn't even ask that question; it does briefly review the arguments in a book about the origins of government distrust by progressives in the 60s and 70s, but spends a much larger share of the article reviewing another book's historical telling of, you know, the whole Civil Rights backlash from conservatives, followed by a crook President, followed by 40 years of concerted effort by Republicans to denounce government in all forms, followed by another crook President.
"The Reason Some Republicans Mistrust Science: Their Leaders Tell Them To"
Good headline, actually matches the content of the article. Must be a hard-hitting political periodical, from, let's see...[checks notes]...Scientific American.
Fucking hell.
posted by Room 101 at 6:49 PM on November 2, 2021 [67 favorites]
It's really hard to build trust without a sense that everyone is putting skin in the game. In 2016, I reached out hard to family and relatives to try to find common ground, as many Americans did, and.... I got abandoned, quite literally, at a point of vulnerability I had advanced into because I was looking for reassurance that I-the-human was worth reaching out to listen to. I still have nightmares about the incident, years later; I wound up on the side of the road in an Alexandrian suburb with no idea where I would spend the night, asking everyone I knew if they could take me in. I asked here, actually.
The FPP finds that Democrats are more likely to try to reach out and understand Republicans across the aisle, quite significantly so. But I have to say, the increasing consensus that there is no point trying to understand conservatives on the part of everyone else comes after over a decade of absolutely appalling bad faith, refusal to work alongside huge swathes of people, and active erosion of democratic principles.
I have to wonder how many other Americans who vote Democrat have had traumatic experiences like mine. It seems to be a common experience. I think much of the refusal to try to reach out in the middle this time is about trying to avoid being vulnerable with someone who has ably demonstrated that they are
And I don't think that's the wrong move. I'm tired, I'm angry, and getting vulnerable doesn't fucking work. Finding the values that we can shove at doesn't work, because there is nothing that QAnon cultists truly value and the GOP refuses to renounce even its most extremist end points at any point.
What is the stated goal for trying to build understanding? Who are we trying to appeal to, on what scale, and why? Are we trying to propose bipartisan initiatives that have a hope of doing anything? Are we trying to craft PR narratives for people trying to make this fucked up worthless government better? What happens if there are no points of agreement? What price of consensus is too high?
posted by sciatrix at 7:00 PM on November 2, 2021 [123 favorites]
The FPP finds that Democrats are more likely to try to reach out and understand Republicans across the aisle, quite significantly so. But I have to say, the increasing consensus that there is no point trying to understand conservatives on the part of everyone else comes after over a decade of absolutely appalling bad faith, refusal to work alongside huge swathes of people, and active erosion of democratic principles.
I have to wonder how many other Americans who vote Democrat have had traumatic experiences like mine. It seems to be a common experience. I think much of the refusal to try to reach out in the middle this time is about trying to avoid being vulnerable with someone who has ably demonstrated that they are
And I don't think that's the wrong move. I'm tired, I'm angry, and getting vulnerable doesn't fucking work. Finding the values that we can shove at doesn't work, because there is nothing that QAnon cultists truly value and the GOP refuses to renounce even its most extremist end points at any point.
What is the stated goal for trying to build understanding? Who are we trying to appeal to, on what scale, and why? Are we trying to propose bipartisan initiatives that have a hope of doing anything? Are we trying to craft PR narratives for people trying to make this fucked up worthless government better? What happens if there are no points of agreement? What price of consensus is too high?
posted by sciatrix at 7:00 PM on November 2, 2021 [123 favorites]
Once upon a time, one could have made the analogy that if government was a bone, Republicans and Democrats were osteoclasts and osteoblasts. Build government programs, but also pare them down if overgrown. I'm not sure if that ever was true, but it at least felt true.
These days though, we have Republicans who are asking if it's even necessary to have government at all, and somehow that's not treated as a disqualifier for someone who wants to hold office.
The bone shapers are literally asking "why should we have bones?"
posted by explosion at 7:07 PM on November 2, 2021 [21 favorites]
These days though, we have Republicans who are asking if it's even necessary to have government at all, and somehow that's not treated as a disqualifier for someone who wants to hold office.
The bone shapers are literally asking "why should we have bones?"
posted by explosion at 7:07 PM on November 2, 2021 [21 favorites]
I have to wonder how many other Americans who vote Democrat have had traumatic experiences like mine.
I think a lot of them, and a lot more in recent years. I was treated this way by my Republican parents throughout my childhood and young adulthood, and so from my perspective nothing has really changed. My parents showed me who they were and I believed them. But I think a lot of Democrats did not have that childhood experience and really thought they could reach across the aisle, only to have an experience like yours. Or perhaps they had that experience, but thought they would try again, just one more time, right? Only to be met with callousness and vitriol. And even then, some of them think, okay, let's pick ourselves up, try again, find the right words, if we're good enough, if we're nice enough, if we're smart enough, they'll finally listen, right?
Reader, they won't. Please, for the love of god, take it from someone who has tried for years and years and YEARS. They will not listen. They will not listen. They will not listen. You cannot be good enough to make them stop hurting you. This is a collective abusive relationship and I am so fucking sick of being told that if I am just a good enough child, my parents won't hit me. No, I don't need to have more empathy and understanding for my abusers. No, I will not walk on eggshells so that they maybe, hopefully, if I'm lucky, treat me as human. It doesn't work.
I find it particularly telling that Republicans call Democrats lazy free-loaders and Democrats say that Republicans have the country's best interests at heart. Sounds a lot like, "Sure, my parents call me names and hit me, but I know they love me," doesn't it?
On the other side of the coin, maybe a whole hell of a lot of us were treated like this as children and have never broken out of thinking like that. Maybe we're just falling back into old patterns. I know I find myself thinking it, sometimes. Wondering if I could reach my parents, finally. Maybe I can't blame people for thinking... hoping that.
I'm so tired.
posted by brook horse at 7:45 PM on November 2, 2021 [102 favorites]
I think a lot of them, and a lot more in recent years. I was treated this way by my Republican parents throughout my childhood and young adulthood, and so from my perspective nothing has really changed. My parents showed me who they were and I believed them. But I think a lot of Democrats did not have that childhood experience and really thought they could reach across the aisle, only to have an experience like yours. Or perhaps they had that experience, but thought they would try again, just one more time, right? Only to be met with callousness and vitriol. And even then, some of them think, okay, let's pick ourselves up, try again, find the right words, if we're good enough, if we're nice enough, if we're smart enough, they'll finally listen, right?
Reader, they won't. Please, for the love of god, take it from someone who has tried for years and years and YEARS. They will not listen. They will not listen. They will not listen. You cannot be good enough to make them stop hurting you. This is a collective abusive relationship and I am so fucking sick of being told that if I am just a good enough child, my parents won't hit me. No, I don't need to have more empathy and understanding for my abusers. No, I will not walk on eggshells so that they maybe, hopefully, if I'm lucky, treat me as human. It doesn't work.
I find it particularly telling that Republicans call Democrats lazy free-loaders and Democrats say that Republicans have the country's best interests at heart. Sounds a lot like, "Sure, my parents call me names and hit me, but I know they love me," doesn't it?
On the other side of the coin, maybe a whole hell of a lot of us were treated like this as children and have never broken out of thinking like that. Maybe we're just falling back into old patterns. I know I find myself thinking it, sometimes. Wondering if I could reach my parents, finally. Maybe I can't blame people for thinking... hoping that.
I'm so tired.
posted by brook horse at 7:45 PM on November 2, 2021 [102 favorites]
I'll take Reasonable Sounding Excuses for Tribal Loyalty Performance for $500, LeVar.
I'm not sure any comment could possibly better exemplify the findings of this study!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:49 PM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure any comment could possibly better exemplify the findings of this study!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:49 PM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
The right and the left have vastly different fears. The right is concerned with losing its hegemony, it's traditions and holidays. The war on Christmas may seem stupid to many, but it's a matter of identity to many more, a threat to its white religious ethos where diversity is scary. They don't want to be forced to have to deal with pronouns or cakes for homosexual or miscegenationous weddings or deal with the concept that people have different beliefs and values than them and that's okay. They can't seem to accept the fact that basic courtesy to people different than them doesn't invalidate their whole world view.
When everything seems to be coming to everything is permissible for republicans, nothing is acceptable for democrats, when do we start having genuine fears about the ability to marry who we want? To love who we want with that being persecuted, without fearing being sent to re-education camps? When does Republican propaganda start legitimately endangering my life?
posted by Jacen at 7:49 PM on November 2, 2021 [17 favorites]
When everything seems to be coming to everything is permissible for republicans, nothing is acceptable for democrats, when do we start having genuine fears about the ability to marry who we want? To love who we want with that being persecuted, without fearing being sent to re-education camps? When does Republican propaganda start legitimately endangering my life?
posted by Jacen at 7:49 PM on November 2, 2021 [17 favorites]
When does Republican propaganda start legitimately endangering my life?
If it isn't already, I'd put $10 on it being no later than January 21, 2025.
posted by tclark at 7:53 PM on November 2, 2021 [20 favorites]
If it isn't already, I'd put $10 on it being no later than January 21, 2025.
posted by tclark at 7:53 PM on November 2, 2021 [20 favorites]
I empathize with Sciatrix and Brook Horse here (and I'm sorry you've both had those experiences). I can add one more bit of data to this trend.
This summer, my mom, oldest sister, and I were trying to coordinate a family visit since I hadn't seen anyone since the end of 2019. I had texted them to let them know Dr. Mrs. Kaiju Commuter and I were both vaccinated, and I got crickets in response. Surely, I thought, surely they did and that's why they're planning this. My parents both had Covid last November (almost certain my mom contracted it at a post-election Trump rally), and I knew my sister had to stay on top of Federal guidance for her OSHA-related work. Surely they all did the right thing.
Well, as fate would have it, no one bothered to tell me until after I had bought tickers that they had all, in fact, decided they would not get the vaccine. I raised the very valid points that our friend cluster still had unvaccinated pregnant mothers and newborns. I raised the even more valid point that Dr. Mrs. Kaiju Commuter, though vaccinated, was very concerned about the Delta variant and the particularly vulnerable patients in her care, so we wanted to minimize exposure. Our concerns for other people fell on deaf ears. I was told I just had to respect their personal decision, so we opted to cancel our travel plans.
Fast forward to today, when my mom has repeatedly sent me antivax spam, despite knowing I've already gotten the vaccine and despite claiming she respected my choice. Turns out she has also been spamming my other sister (who is vaccinated) horrible antivax messages against her wishes. It now turns out our mom thinks all vaccinated people will get AIDS by the end of the year, which is both patently ridiculous and probably homophobic (considering my mom's politics). Really makes us feel loved.
And yet, my well-meaning, like-minded friends still contend that the relationship can be repaired. And sometimes I find myself believing that too, against all evidence.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 8:02 PM on November 2, 2021 [57 favorites]
This summer, my mom, oldest sister, and I were trying to coordinate a family visit since I hadn't seen anyone since the end of 2019. I had texted them to let them know Dr. Mrs. Kaiju Commuter and I were both vaccinated, and I got crickets in response. Surely, I thought, surely they did and that's why they're planning this. My parents both had Covid last November (almost certain my mom contracted it at a post-election Trump rally), and I knew my sister had to stay on top of Federal guidance for her OSHA-related work. Surely they all did the right thing.
Well, as fate would have it, no one bothered to tell me until after I had bought tickers that they had all, in fact, decided they would not get the vaccine. I raised the very valid points that our friend cluster still had unvaccinated pregnant mothers and newborns. I raised the even more valid point that Dr. Mrs. Kaiju Commuter, though vaccinated, was very concerned about the Delta variant and the particularly vulnerable patients in her care, so we wanted to minimize exposure. Our concerns for other people fell on deaf ears. I was told I just had to respect their personal decision, so we opted to cancel our travel plans.
Fast forward to today, when my mom has repeatedly sent me antivax spam, despite knowing I've already gotten the vaccine and despite claiming she respected my choice. Turns out she has also been spamming my other sister (who is vaccinated) horrible antivax messages against her wishes. It now turns out our mom thinks all vaccinated people will get AIDS by the end of the year, which is both patently ridiculous and probably homophobic (considering my mom's politics). Really makes us feel loved.
And yet, my well-meaning, like-minded friends still contend that the relationship can be repaired. And sometimes I find myself believing that too, against all evidence.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 8:02 PM on November 2, 2021 [57 favorites]
My brother literally threw me out of his apartment on January 6th because he knew I voted Biden. I was bringing him groceries.
posted by pan at 8:13 PM on November 2, 2021 [64 favorites]
posted by pan at 8:13 PM on November 2, 2021 [64 favorites]
They're just zombies, sigh. You can argue about playing fair with them while they burn your house down, but it won't do you any good.
posted by ovvl at 8:23 PM on November 2, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 8:23 PM on November 2, 2021 [16 favorites]
It is such an abusive relationship, and I think the relative ages of the respondents of each party cited also bear out the characterization of Republicans as being... writ large, abusive parents and grandparents of Democrats, where the two coexist in one family.
I can tell you, I hoped desperately that someone in my family might love me despite my politics; that feeling that compassion was worth paying for didn't make me intrinsically unlovable to the people who looked after me when I was tiny. It's hard, after all, to tell whether my politics spring from who and what I am--queer, neurodivergent, perpetually questioning--or whether I am free to develop into the person I became because I adopted politics that allow me to not hate myself. In some ways, politics became a proxy for a different conflict: do you love me as a person or as a possession? Am I worth struggling to understand and trying to listen to? If loving me is not easy, will you bother? When the chips are down, where do you stand?
I got pretty fucked up finding that for the most part, the answer is a no: in fact, the more conservative the family member, the less they will try, and the faster they will seek first to humiliate me, then to abuse me, then to push me far from them. I am not worth the work for these people. I am not worth trying to understand and listen to.
In the small scale, we can remove ourselves from these relationships. But writ across the populations of the nation, there are so so many of them--and we cannot flee forever. Indeed, the faster we run, the harder they try to hurt us for the indignity of existing unashamed. When we run, they chase!
I am so tired of being told that I should be ashamed! I am tired of being told to be meek and fair and kind! I am tired of being told to think about the middle ground! I am so fucking tired of mealy mouthed media mavens, perching atop their ephemeral platforms and tsking about how really conservatives are always the party being hurt! Everywhere! Everywhere the answer is "oh but both sides" no matter how far they have to stretch their spineless backs to contort it to the situation! Is every godforsaken editor in this country devoid of the smallest shred of honesty?
I am so tired of being told that being abused is, somehow, some way, my fault!
posted by sciatrix at 8:30 PM on November 2, 2021 [110 favorites]
I can tell you, I hoped desperately that someone in my family might love me despite my politics; that feeling that compassion was worth paying for didn't make me intrinsically unlovable to the people who looked after me when I was tiny. It's hard, after all, to tell whether my politics spring from who and what I am--queer, neurodivergent, perpetually questioning--or whether I am free to develop into the person I became because I adopted politics that allow me to not hate myself. In some ways, politics became a proxy for a different conflict: do you love me as a person or as a possession? Am I worth struggling to understand and trying to listen to? If loving me is not easy, will you bother? When the chips are down, where do you stand?
I got pretty fucked up finding that for the most part, the answer is a no: in fact, the more conservative the family member, the less they will try, and the faster they will seek first to humiliate me, then to abuse me, then to push me far from them. I am not worth the work for these people. I am not worth trying to understand and listen to.
In the small scale, we can remove ourselves from these relationships. But writ across the populations of the nation, there are so so many of them--and we cannot flee forever. Indeed, the faster we run, the harder they try to hurt us for the indignity of existing unashamed. When we run, they chase!
I am so tired of being told that I should be ashamed! I am tired of being told to be meek and fair and kind! I am tired of being told to think about the middle ground! I am so fucking tired of mealy mouthed media mavens, perching atop their ephemeral platforms and tsking about how really conservatives are always the party being hurt! Everywhere! Everywhere the answer is "oh but both sides" no matter how far they have to stretch their spineless backs to contort it to the situation! Is every godforsaken editor in this country devoid of the smallest shred of honesty?
I am so tired of being told that being abused is, somehow, some way, my fault!
posted by sciatrix at 8:30 PM on November 2, 2021 [110 favorites]
The US Constitutional order was not designed to accomodate anything like the modern Republican Party. It cannot. Its days are numbered.
posted by moorooka at 8:33 PM on November 2, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by moorooka at 8:33 PM on November 2, 2021 [19 favorites]
I'm sick of being told that I'm wrong about literal facts. "Trump fixed drug pricing" they say, and I say, "Mmslle's medicine has gone up," and they disagree! There are bills ffs!
posted by pan at 8:39 PM on November 2, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by pan at 8:39 PM on November 2, 2021 [12 favorites]
At the table during an extended family Thanksgiving dinner hosted by my nuclear family, I told my father’s brother, for whom I was named, who was a federal judge in a southern circuit, and who had been throwing around a slightly less objectionable version of the n-word, that he was "a drunken bigot and not fit to sit on the bench."
I was 12 at the time, which was well back in the last century, and they had almost nothing to do with us after. That act consigned my father to a lonely death after my mother died, and I’ve regretted it so many times. But I’m pretty sure those branches of the family are Trumpists now, and the bridges I burned back then would be aflame as I write if I hadn’t already put them to the torch.
I wish I knew what we were going to do to get past this.
posted by jamjam at 9:19 PM on November 2, 2021 [32 favorites]
I was 12 at the time, which was well back in the last century, and they had almost nothing to do with us after. That act consigned my father to a lonely death after my mother died, and I’ve regretted it so many times. But I’m pretty sure those branches of the family are Trumpists now, and the bridges I burned back then would be aflame as I write if I hadn’t already put them to the torch.
I wish I knew what we were going to do to get past this.
posted by jamjam at 9:19 PM on November 2, 2021 [32 favorites]
I know this is a mixed bag of links but this
the American political system was designed by people who were distrustful of government
is really a very good point.
posted by atoxyl at 10:10 PM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
the American political system was designed by people who were distrustful of government
is really a very good point.
posted by atoxyl at 10:10 PM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
The US Constitutional order was not designed to accomodate anything like the modern Republican Party. It cannot. Its days are numbered.
I’m unsure whose days are numbered here… The modern Republican Party’s, or the US Constitution’s
posted by Stu-Pendous at 10:19 PM on November 2, 2021 [14 favorites]
I’m unsure whose days are numbered here… The modern Republican Party’s, or the US Constitution’s
posted by Stu-Pendous at 10:19 PM on November 2, 2021 [14 favorites]
Unambiguous, to me. To rewrite:
-
The US Constitutional order's days are numbered, because it was not designed to accommodate anything like the modern Republican Party.
Got it… Now I’m sad.
posted by Stu-Pendous at 10:42 PM on November 2, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Stu-Pendous at 10:42 PM on November 2, 2021 [6 favorites]
I think the survey described in the first link is a valuable thing to have done, especially since it seems to involve more interviewing and qualitative analysis than a typical simple survey would, but that approach still has some limitations. When asked their political beliefs, people often respond in ways that are more about sending a political message via the surveyor rather than about giving an honest signal of what they believe. As others have noted, despite the framing it seems clear from the survey result that Republicans report less insight into Democrats' beliefs and motives than the reverse. But I can't help but wonder if there's an element of people using this as a way to express their alienation (see for example the Republican avowing their inability to take the perspective of a "devilcrat"). Are Republicans really incapable of making an honest attempt at describing Democrats' point of view, or are they refusing to do so out of tribalism?
One way to assess this is to attach a cost to refusing to give an honest signal. I would be really interested to see a modified version of this question that turns it into a task with a reward for performing well. Imagine, for example, people are asked to write a statement explaining why they vote for their party of choice (e.g., "why D, by D"), and then another statement taking the perspective of their political opponents explaining why they vote for that party ("why R, by D"). Then people are given pairs of statements for their own party affiliation (e.g., a D reviews pairs of one "why D, by D" and one "why D, by R") and asked to guess which one is an honest statement (which one is the "why D, by D"). Each perspective-taking statement (the "why D, by R" and "why R, by D" statements) is then graded based on how often it was chosen, and its author is rewarded accordingly with money. So for example, if I, as a Democrat, can write a statement about why a Republican votes Republican that successfully convinces Republicans that it was written by a Republican, I get cash. If I can't convince any Republicans that my statement was written by a Republican, I get nothing.
The point of this exercise is to determine how much people are unable to take the perspective of their political opponents, versus how much they are unwilling to do so without some extrinsic motivation. My prediction would be that you'd find that under these conditions, both Democrats and Republicans perform better at writing statements taking the perspective of the other side, as people would be more willing to set aside their tribalism and actually attempt to engage in genuine perspective-taking. However it would be interesting to know how much elasticity there is here, and how much motivation is actually required. This latter could theoretically be measured by varying the stakes of the game; if I only stand to win $1 for doing a good job with perspective-taking I might not bother, but tell me I can win $100 if I convince a bunch of Republicans that my statement was written by one of them and I'll try really hard to be convincing.
Anyway, freebie study design for any polisci researchers who might be reading.
posted by biogeo at 10:47 PM on November 2, 2021 [27 favorites]
One way to assess this is to attach a cost to refusing to give an honest signal. I would be really interested to see a modified version of this question that turns it into a task with a reward for performing well. Imagine, for example, people are asked to write a statement explaining why they vote for their party of choice (e.g., "why D, by D"), and then another statement taking the perspective of their political opponents explaining why they vote for that party ("why R, by D"). Then people are given pairs of statements for their own party affiliation (e.g., a D reviews pairs of one "why D, by D" and one "why D, by R") and asked to guess which one is an honest statement (which one is the "why D, by D"). Each perspective-taking statement (the "why D, by R" and "why R, by D" statements) is then graded based on how often it was chosen, and its author is rewarded accordingly with money. So for example, if I, as a Democrat, can write a statement about why a Republican votes Republican that successfully convinces Republicans that it was written by a Republican, I get cash. If I can't convince any Republicans that my statement was written by a Republican, I get nothing.
The point of this exercise is to determine how much people are unable to take the perspective of their political opponents, versus how much they are unwilling to do so without some extrinsic motivation. My prediction would be that you'd find that under these conditions, both Democrats and Republicans perform better at writing statements taking the perspective of the other side, as people would be more willing to set aside their tribalism and actually attempt to engage in genuine perspective-taking. However it would be interesting to know how much elasticity there is here, and how much motivation is actually required. This latter could theoretically be measured by varying the stakes of the game; if I only stand to win $1 for doing a good job with perspective-taking I might not bother, but tell me I can win $100 if I convince a bunch of Republicans that my statement was written by one of them and I'll try really hard to be convincing.
Anyway, freebie study design for any polisci researchers who might be reading.
posted by biogeo at 10:47 PM on November 2, 2021 [27 favorites]
The different ways that the two sides of politics approach each other is a live case study in the Paradox of Tolerance. Against all evidence, liberal Democrats need to assert that a “loyal opposition” exists in the Republican Party, so as to maintain the fiction that this Constitutional order remains viable. Maintaining this fiction is their primary institutional prerogative, far more important than attaining power. And so they reach across the aisle to those that not just resolutely committed to voter suppression, but who cannot acknowledge the results of an election when one happens, and who literally incited a violent insurrection. Months after an insurrection that could have easily ended in their murder, the Democrats continue to seek common ground. When one side of politics is hell-bent on utterly destroying the other, while the other side is hell-bent on legitimising the other, there is no stable equilibrium to be arrived at. The Republic is failing before our eyes.
posted by moorooka at 12:01 AM on November 3, 2021 [37 favorites]
posted by moorooka at 12:01 AM on November 3, 2021 [37 favorites]
Covid has pushed everyone back to their corners again, but I think Republican voters were starting to come around on War Inc and free market fanaticism. This is why Rubio is calling for a more "family friendly" version of capitalism, while Cruz continues to crank up the rhetoric on social issues as he simultaneously kisses Wallstreet's ass, but that old trick won't work anymore. If you're frozen in a block of ice, you don't appreciate being lectured to about the "nanny state" by some dipshit jetting to Cancun.
posted by Beholder at 12:13 AM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 12:13 AM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
As others have noted, despite the framing it seems clear from the survey result that Republicans report less insight into Democrats' beliefs and motives than the reverse.
The thing is that all the people who used to identify as or with Republicans who are not crazed lunatics, neo-Nazis, or both, have long since stopped identifying as Republicans. Even if they hate the Democratic Party, they'll still insist on identifying as independent.
The people in the late 2000s saying the Republican Party was doomed because of its ever increasing batshit radicalism weren't wrong about the stuff they could see. What they didn't realize was how many people were ready to abandon reality given a sustained push of disinformation and cult indoctrination.
The real question is will the GOP get killed off like the Whigs before the country tears itself apart. I once thought it possible, but the window seems to be closing if it isn't closed already. Bannon's flood of shit, foreign interference, and our collective refusal to deal with actual election security problems (as opposed to the ridiculous January 6th bullshit, but one must remember that every accusation is an admission of their own guilt) have probably already doomed us.
posted by wierdo at 1:12 AM on November 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
The thing is that all the people who used to identify as or with Republicans who are not crazed lunatics, neo-Nazis, or both, have long since stopped identifying as Republicans. Even if they hate the Democratic Party, they'll still insist on identifying as independent.
The people in the late 2000s saying the Republican Party was doomed because of its ever increasing batshit radicalism weren't wrong about the stuff they could see. What they didn't realize was how many people were ready to abandon reality given a sustained push of disinformation and cult indoctrination.
The real question is will the GOP get killed off like the Whigs before the country tears itself apart. I once thought it possible, but the window seems to be closing if it isn't closed already. Bannon's flood of shit, foreign interference, and our collective refusal to deal with actual election security problems (as opposed to the ridiculous January 6th bullshit, but one must remember that every accusation is an admission of their own guilt) have probably already doomed us.
posted by wierdo at 1:12 AM on November 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
The Whigs were supplanted by the Republican Party because they kept trying to accomodate both the slave power and the abolitionists - their prerogative was maintaining the fiction that the Constitutional order of the day was viable. Note that it was not the Democrats of the day that were supplanted - they knew that they were squarely against abolitionism and didn’t face the same type of internal divisions that the Whigs did.
If there is a parallel today, it is the Democrats who resemble the Whigs, not the Republicans. It is the Democrats trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, trying to pretend that the system is legitimate and can hold together in the face of permanent minoritarian rule by their political opponents. The Whigs were supplanted by a party with a moral clarity of purpose, able to acknowledge the crisis upon the country and the impossibility of accomodation. The same must now happen to the Democratic Party if the United States has any hope of finding its way to the future.
posted by moorooka at 2:19 AM on November 3, 2021 [31 favorites]
If there is a parallel today, it is the Democrats who resemble the Whigs, not the Republicans. It is the Democrats trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, trying to pretend that the system is legitimate and can hold together in the face of permanent minoritarian rule by their political opponents. The Whigs were supplanted by a party with a moral clarity of purpose, able to acknowledge the crisis upon the country and the impossibility of accomodation. The same must now happen to the Democratic Party if the United States has any hope of finding its way to the future.
posted by moorooka at 2:19 AM on November 3, 2021 [31 favorites]
My parents and aunts are somewhat right-leaning so those survey caricatures of the left, the coddled freebie taxation state b.s., is exactly what they think of young people these days. I should tell them about AOC more.
My problem with the study premise is that a person can be simultaneously socially conditioned and yet have sincere thoughts and beliefs. It's not necessarily that the left is just as unempathic as the right (a false equivalence in the premise), but the existence of actual ignorance and protofascist bad faith and incoherent positions that make it hard to know a reactionary's thinking, to obtain a theory of mind of such people on a concrete level.
posted by polymodus at 2:21 AM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
My problem with the study premise is that a person can be simultaneously socially conditioned and yet have sincere thoughts and beliefs. It's not necessarily that the left is just as unempathic as the right (a false equivalence in the premise), but the existence of actual ignorance and protofascist bad faith and incoherent positions that make it hard to know a reactionary's thinking, to obtain a theory of mind of such people on a concrete level.
posted by polymodus at 2:21 AM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
At the table during an extended family Thanksgiving dinner hosted by my nuclear family, I told my father’s brother, for whom I was named, who was a federal judge in a southern circuit, and who had been throwing around a slightly less objectionable version of the n-word, that he was "a drunken bigot and not fit to sit on the bench."
Out of the mouths of babes.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:45 AM on November 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
The point of this exercise is to determine how much people are unable to take the perspective of their political opponents, versus how much they are unwilling to do so without some extrinsic motivation. My prediction would be that you'd find that under these conditions, both Democrats and Republicans perform better at writing statements taking the perspective of the other side, as people would be more willing to set aside their tribalism and actually attempt to engage in genuine perspective-taking.
Yeah, about that... I mean, I think Republicans are mostly motivated by status anxiety/white supremacy. Of course I'm not going to write that for the "Why R/by D" portion of the exercise if I want to win the money in this set-up, because I would assume they're not honest enough to admit that outright, even to themselves. I bet I could come up with all kinds of self-serving rationalizations for voting Republican actual Republican voters would be willing to sign their names to, but trust me, that wouldn't require me to set aside my tribalism at all.
posted by sohalt at 4:42 AM on November 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
Yeah, about that... I mean, I think Republicans are mostly motivated by status anxiety/white supremacy. Of course I'm not going to write that for the "Why R/by D" portion of the exercise if I want to win the money in this set-up, because I would assume they're not honest enough to admit that outright, even to themselves. I bet I could come up with all kinds of self-serving rationalizations for voting Republican actual Republican voters would be willing to sign their names to, but trust me, that wouldn't require me to set aside my tribalism at all.
posted by sohalt at 4:42 AM on November 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
One could even argue that it is unethical for experimenters to ask people to empathize with racists and classist or people who are incentivized/privileged/coddled by such power structures.
posted by polymodus at 4:58 AM on November 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 4:58 AM on November 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
The people in the late 2000s saying the Republican Party was doomed because of its ever increasing batshit radicalism weren't wrong about the stuff they could see. What they didn't realize was how many people were ready to abandon reality given a sustained push of disinformation and cult indoctrination.
I was thinking the other day about how in the future (maybe in the present), either the most recent election or all elections are going to be like evolution or climate change. Unless you're sure you're talking to a member of the reality-based community, you can't just take for granted that a given person with whom you are speaking acknowledges that the foundation of the conversation is real.
I've had conversations with town managers who have been flooded out by the fifth or sixth hundred-year storm in the last couple of decades who I know don't believe in climate change so I can't even bother broaching the subject of how these disasters will keep happening and get worse and more frequent with time, and I'm one of the people they hired to rebuild whatever the flood swept away.
What should happen is since Republicans are incapable of acknowledging that they lost elections they should be incapable of learning from those losses, but it seems that the lessons they're learning serve the same function. "We lost, so we need to figure out how to make sure the opposition can't vote in the future," and "We had the election stolen from us so we need to figure out how to keep the opposition from cheating in the future," have remarkably similar solutions.
I've tried to have conversations in the past with Republicans about the fact that the senate and electoral college, in their goal of preventing tyranny of the majority, have instead promoted regular-ass tyranny, and asked them point-blank if they thought it was appropriate for a minority of the population to choose the nation's leadership, and I'm stopped at my first premise because they do not believe they are a minority of the population and they do not believe they're losing the popular vote. Actual election results mean nothing to them. Polls mean nothing to them. They simply cannot believe that. Or at least they say they can't. As I stated above, nothing a conservative says can be trusted because they could be lying either to gain some sort of advantage or simply for their own amusement.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 5:06 AM on November 3, 2021 [39 favorites]
I was thinking the other day about how in the future (maybe in the present), either the most recent election or all elections are going to be like evolution or climate change. Unless you're sure you're talking to a member of the reality-based community, you can't just take for granted that a given person with whom you are speaking acknowledges that the foundation of the conversation is real.
I've had conversations with town managers who have been flooded out by the fifth or sixth hundred-year storm in the last couple of decades who I know don't believe in climate change so I can't even bother broaching the subject of how these disasters will keep happening and get worse and more frequent with time, and I'm one of the people they hired to rebuild whatever the flood swept away.
What should happen is since Republicans are incapable of acknowledging that they lost elections they should be incapable of learning from those losses, but it seems that the lessons they're learning serve the same function. "We lost, so we need to figure out how to make sure the opposition can't vote in the future," and "We had the election stolen from us so we need to figure out how to keep the opposition from cheating in the future," have remarkably similar solutions.
I've tried to have conversations in the past with Republicans about the fact that the senate and electoral college, in their goal of preventing tyranny of the majority, have instead promoted regular-ass tyranny, and asked them point-blank if they thought it was appropriate for a minority of the population to choose the nation's leadership, and I'm stopped at my first premise because they do not believe they are a minority of the population and they do not believe they're losing the popular vote. Actual election results mean nothing to them. Polls mean nothing to them. They simply cannot believe that. Or at least they say they can't. As I stated above, nothing a conservative says can be trusted because they could be lying either to gain some sort of advantage or simply for their own amusement.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 5:06 AM on November 3, 2021 [39 favorites]
The war on Christmas may seem stupid to many, but it's a matter of identity to many more, a threat to its white religious ethos where diversity is scary .
Yeah, it’s still stupid.
posted by sock poppet at 5:16 AM on November 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
Yeah, it’s still stupid.
posted by sock poppet at 5:16 AM on November 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
I can see the future of British (although as a Scottish resident I hope it is only English) politics in this. The gulf between Leavers and Remainers, despite the massive screw-up that Brexit has become, seems unbridgeable.
posted by epo at 6:11 AM on November 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by epo at 6:11 AM on November 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
Are Republicans really incapable of making an honest attempt at describing Democrats' point of view, or are they refusing to do so out of tribalism?I think this is the key part: most of the narratives around this present the situation as some kind of natural division rather than a tension maintained by a small group of ideologies spending billions of dollars per year. Understanding the situation requires not just the passive recognition that people hear conservative messages on Fox but how aggressively ideological purity is demanded. Moderate Republicans were purged from the party at almost every level and everyone knows that they’re next if they don’t stay on message. Rank and file voters aren’t usually explicitly threatened but they pick up that there’s no real room for dissent and are constantly being told that their voices will be silenced unless they all shout the party line together. Surveys and media coverage which are built on the assumption of good-faith efforts or evenly distributed minor levels of dishonesty just aren’t prepared to handle a massive disinformation campaign.
posted by adamsc at 6:12 AM on November 3, 2021 [19 favorites]
Liberals are learning what so many homosexuals have had to learn over the years. They are no longer your family. Nothing is more painful, but nothing makes it better than finding your chosen family.
You are already dead to them. You must move on.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 7:14 AM on November 3, 2021 [35 favorites]
You are already dead to them. You must move on.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 7:14 AM on November 3, 2021 [35 favorites]
sciatrix, I am so, so sorry all those things happened to you, and I just want to tell you: being abused is NOT your fault, has never been your fault.
You deserve a loving, caring, protective family, and I'm so sorry none of those people has shown you the love and protection you deserve.
You are so wonderful, so brave and beautiful and brilliant and good.
MetaFilter can't be a true family to you, but I want to say: I am so glad you are here. I am so happy to see you every time I see you, and so glad to hear your voice.
I value you, just exactly the way you are, and I hope you have some places (maybe even MetaFilter, sometimes) that feel like home, like places where people love you all the more for being exactly the way you want to be.
posted by kristi at 7:49 AM on November 3, 2021 [36 favorites]
You deserve a loving, caring, protective family, and I'm so sorry none of those people has shown you the love and protection you deserve.
You are so wonderful, so brave and beautiful and brilliant and good.
MetaFilter can't be a true family to you, but I want to say: I am so glad you are here. I am so happy to see you every time I see you, and so glad to hear your voice.
I value you, just exactly the way you are, and I hope you have some places (maybe even MetaFilter, sometimes) that feel like home, like places where people love you all the more for being exactly the way you want to be.
posted by kristi at 7:49 AM on November 3, 2021 [36 favorites]
To take a break from discussing how vast the cultural gap between the two parties is and actually vaguely address the thesis of the post that we are united in a general lack of trust in the government:
Decades of successful attempts to deprive governmental agencies of resources and power have made them ineffective and, well, not very trustworthy. Politicians on both sides have been happy to take huge chunks of money from private corporations in exchange for removing laws that stand in the way of huge corporate profits, regardless of the consequences. I don’t really trust the government to do a goddamn thing in the interest of people or the environment at this point, because it’s so riddled with people who owe too much to corporations. Any attempt at effecting change is watered down by powerful people who draw huge salaries off of the misery all this profiteering creates.
posted by egypturnash at 7:55 AM on November 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
Decades of successful attempts to deprive governmental agencies of resources and power have made them ineffective and, well, not very trustworthy. Politicians on both sides have been happy to take huge chunks of money from private corporations in exchange for removing laws that stand in the way of huge corporate profits, regardless of the consequences. I don’t really trust the government to do a goddamn thing in the interest of people or the environment at this point, because it’s so riddled with people who owe too much to corporations. Any attempt at effecting change is watered down by powerful people who draw huge salaries off of the misery all this profiteering creates.
posted by egypturnash at 7:55 AM on November 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
If a neoconservative is indeed just a liberal who was mugged by reality, I guess that explains why so many modern conservatives are contemptuous, resentful and afraid of it.
posted by flabdablet at 8:05 AM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:05 AM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
A government that we have little faith in. The two sides blame each other for this state of affairs
and yet, strangely, it's only one of those sides whose now-inexplicably-sainted leader has said in so many words that Government is the problem, only to go on to spend two terms funnelling totally unprecedented amounts of public money toward the least accountable people in the world. I have never really been able to decide whether it was Reagan's manifest cluelessness or his brazen hypocrisy that I despise more strongly.
It's not governments I have no faith in. It's fucking conservatives.
A conservative is somebody who watches conservatives drive their country into the ground, and then watches progressives scrabble furiously to try to stop the slide, and then concludes that things were better in the good old days so clearly what we need is more and harsher conservatism to get the good old days back.
I understand these people just fine. They're incorrigible magical thinkers with a Just World delusion and there is no point trying to reason with them because apart from their being too fucking lazy to exercise reason their commitment to their utterly faulty premises is ironclad. Conservatives can't bear to step out of their Just Worlds and into reality because they are spineless moral cowards without a shred of self-awareness and oh how they hate being called out for that. Their hating skills are, of course, top notch.
There is no point appealing to these people, just as there is no point hating them and no point resenting them and no point despairing at the appallingly slow rate at which they figure this shit out for themselves and break free. They are what they are. We can't change them and we can't bring them along in numbers that matter and we just have to keep on cleaning up the huge steaming turds they keep on leaving in the middle of our national carpets and keep on organizing ourselves as best we can to work around them and get shit done. Which we can, if we persist, because reality will always eventually favour the reality-based community and the simple fact is we outnumber them. Never forget it.
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 AM on November 3, 2021 [51 favorites]
and yet, strangely, it's only one of those sides whose now-inexplicably-sainted leader has said in so many words that Government is the problem, only to go on to spend two terms funnelling totally unprecedented amounts of public money toward the least accountable people in the world. I have never really been able to decide whether it was Reagan's manifest cluelessness or his brazen hypocrisy that I despise more strongly.
It's not governments I have no faith in. It's fucking conservatives.
A conservative is somebody who watches conservatives drive their country into the ground, and then watches progressives scrabble furiously to try to stop the slide, and then concludes that things were better in the good old days so clearly what we need is more and harsher conservatism to get the good old days back.
I understand these people just fine. They're incorrigible magical thinkers with a Just World delusion and there is no point trying to reason with them because apart from their being too fucking lazy to exercise reason their commitment to their utterly faulty premises is ironclad. Conservatives can't bear to step out of their Just Worlds and into reality because they are spineless moral cowards without a shred of self-awareness and oh how they hate being called out for that. Their hating skills are, of course, top notch.
There is no point appealing to these people, just as there is no point hating them and no point resenting them and no point despairing at the appallingly slow rate at which they figure this shit out for themselves and break free. They are what they are. We can't change them and we can't bring them along in numbers that matter and we just have to keep on cleaning up the huge steaming turds they keep on leaving in the middle of our national carpets and keep on organizing ourselves as best we can to work around them and get shit done. Which we can, if we persist, because reality will always eventually favour the reality-based community and the simple fact is we outnumber them. Never forget it.
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 AM on November 3, 2021 [51 favorites]
Meh, I got mugged and it didn't turn me into a Cheney.
I’m unsure whose days are numbered here… The modern Republican Party’s, or the US Constitution’s
posted by Stu-Pendous at 10:19 PM on November 2
Unambiguous, to me. To rewrite:
The US Constitutional order's days are numbered, because it was not designed to accommodate anything like the modern Republican Party.
posted by Rash at 10:39 PM on November 2
Got it… Now I’m sad.
posted by Stu-Pendous at 10:42 PM on November 2
The US Constitutional order brought us, among other things: a century of slavery; another century of white supremacist apartheid which made much of the country in effect into a police state for minorities; the war on drugs; the war on terror; and now apparently the war on reality in the form of climate crisis denial/obstructionism, as personified by one Joe Manchin. (Not to mention that afaik we are also the biggest historical contributor to the climate crisis by far.)
I'm not looking forward to revolutionary change but it looks like there's a good chance that historians centuries from now might regard the collapse of the current American order as a very good thing.
posted by viborg at 8:48 AM on November 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
I’m unsure whose days are numbered here… The modern Republican Party’s, or the US Constitution’s
posted by Stu-Pendous at 10:19 PM on November 2
Unambiguous, to me. To rewrite:
The US Constitutional order's days are numbered, because it was not designed to accommodate anything like the modern Republican Party.
posted by Rash at 10:39 PM on November 2
Got it… Now I’m sad.
posted by Stu-Pendous at 10:42 PM on November 2
The US Constitutional order brought us, among other things: a century of slavery; another century of white supremacist apartheid which made much of the country in effect into a police state for minorities; the war on drugs; the war on terror; and now apparently the war on reality in the form of climate crisis denial/obstructionism, as personified by one Joe Manchin. (Not to mention that afaik we are also the biggest historical contributor to the climate crisis by far.)
I'm not looking forward to revolutionary change but it looks like there's a good chance that historians centuries from now might regard the collapse of the current American order as a very good thing.
posted by viborg at 8:48 AM on November 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
I doubt it.
They might well regard whatever eventually follows the collapse of the current American order as a good thing, but it seems to me that it should not be beyond the wit of humanity to organize ways for that good thing to happen without the disruptive and time-wasting step of having to get rid of all the unprincipled opportunists who would undoubtedly spend multiple decades taking advantage of any power vacuum that gets inserted between here and there.
I think the crop of unprincipled opportunists we already have is quite challenging enough, and for all its flaws even artificially coloured polyunsaturated Advanced American Democracy Substitute has features that can be successfully pressed into service for dealing with it.
Just keep on growing The Squad.
posted by flabdablet at 9:42 AM on November 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
They might well regard whatever eventually follows the collapse of the current American order as a good thing, but it seems to me that it should not be beyond the wit of humanity to organize ways for that good thing to happen without the disruptive and time-wasting step of having to get rid of all the unprincipled opportunists who would undoubtedly spend multiple decades taking advantage of any power vacuum that gets inserted between here and there.
I think the crop of unprincipled opportunists we already have is quite challenging enough, and for all its flaws even artificially coloured polyunsaturated Advanced American Democracy Substitute has features that can be successfully pressed into service for dealing with it.
Just keep on growing The Squad.
posted by flabdablet at 9:42 AM on November 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't see how the USA maintains its sanity if it stays together, but also I don't see how it can break apart without costing the plutocrats way more money than they want to spend. So I think it winds up as a yet another heavily armed paranoid schizophrenic state until it's torn apart into three countries largely formed from the west coast, central plains + south-east, and north-east regions, roughly corresponding with the New Money technocrats, the Right-wing Christian oil barons * agrarians and the Old Money financiers. Everybody can have a nice long coastline and lots of shipping canal access, everybody can have a border to Canada, and almost everybody can have a border to Mexico.
Eastern Europe has seen this shit before, and I figure the only real reason the US hasn't exploded yet is because it's so damn large.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:32 AM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Eastern Europe has seen this shit before, and I figure the only real reason the US hasn't exploded yet is because it's so damn large.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:32 AM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
it seems to me that it should not be beyond the wit of humanity to organize ways for that good thing to happen
Clearly it's not beyond the wit of humanity, we have multiple examples of velvet revolutions and people powered soft coups leading to real democratic reforms. I'd say it's a bit simplistic to take the admittedly rigged US system as representative of any broader trends in humanity at all, other the intransigence of tribalism and rank greed.
I think the crop of unprincipled opportunists we already have is quite challenging enough, and for all its flaws even artificially coloured polyunsaturated Advanced American Democracy Substitute has features that can be successfully pressed into service for dealing with it.
I think the crisis of inequality we've been grappling with since it was 'morning in America' is much more based on economic injustice rather than socio-political injustice. Our system seems singularly ill-equipped to manage the transition from a slave state through wage slavery to social democracy.
posted by viborg at 10:37 AM on November 3, 2021
Clearly it's not beyond the wit of humanity, we have multiple examples of velvet revolutions and people powered soft coups leading to real democratic reforms. I'd say it's a bit simplistic to take the admittedly rigged US system as representative of any broader trends in humanity at all, other the intransigence of tribalism and rank greed.
I think the crop of unprincipled opportunists we already have is quite challenging enough, and for all its flaws even artificially coloured polyunsaturated Advanced American Democracy Substitute has features that can be successfully pressed into service for dealing with it.
I think the crisis of inequality we've been grappling with since it was 'morning in America' is much more based on economic injustice rather than socio-political injustice. Our system seems singularly ill-equipped to manage the transition from a slave state through wage slavery to social democracy.
posted by viborg at 10:37 AM on November 3, 2021
Seanmpuckett those are certainly valid points but I think if we're going to rehash the old red state vs blue state war games, it's important to remember the real geographic divide is urban vs rural.
posted by viborg at 10:41 AM on November 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by viborg at 10:41 AM on November 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
The US Constitutional order [...] days are numbered.
If you look at the Wikipedia List of national constitutions and sort by date ratified, you may be surprised that the United States is actually one of the *oldest* constitutions in place today.
If you grew up in the US with classes about Columbus discovering the new world, founding fathers, Manifest Destiny, and other origin myths, you may not have realized that every other country has had a revolution or some kind of constitutional crisis, and tried to fix those problems by rewriting the fundamental document that underlies their country because it was broken. Most countries did not exist with their current constitution before WW2. The US is a dinosaur but kids are still taught that the US is new and hip and better than other countries in 1788, without realizing the same is true about most other countries today in comparison to the US.
posted by meowzilla at 11:23 AM on November 3, 2021 [20 favorites]
If you look at the Wikipedia List of national constitutions and sort by date ratified, you may be surprised that the United States is actually one of the *oldest* constitutions in place today.
If you grew up in the US with classes about Columbus discovering the new world, founding fathers, Manifest Destiny, and other origin myths, you may not have realized that every other country has had a revolution or some kind of constitutional crisis, and tried to fix those problems by rewriting the fundamental document that underlies their country because it was broken. Most countries did not exist with their current constitution before WW2. The US is a dinosaur but kids are still taught that the US is new and hip and better than other countries in 1788, without realizing the same is true about most other countries today in comparison to the US.
posted by meowzilla at 11:23 AM on November 3, 2021 [20 favorites]
Seanmpuckett those are certainly valid points but I think if we're going to rehash the old red state vs blue state war games, it's important to remember the real geographic divide is urban vs rural.
And in the south, at least, it can even get more complicated that than, depending on what part of what rural and what the race/ethncity is of the person living in that rural and as such, whether they been functionally erased by voting rights shenanigans and gerrymandering (lest anyone forget, my hometown, known hippie mecca and dark blue weirdo dot, Asheville, is the heart of the very same gerrymandered district that just put Actual Nazi, Madison Cawthorn in Congress). Demographics are shifting urban, as they haven been (and often times because what was once "rural" is now just endless exurb--I mean, the Raleigh/Durham Combined Statistical Area comprises, like, nine counties at this point, some of which function like "rural" some of which function like "urban" and some of which function like the very particular blend that turns out much larger and even more impassioned swath of middle-upper middle class white evangelical Republican voter than the oft-maligned true rural voter, of whom there are truly ever fewer.
In my experience, as a southerner, it's not the subsistence farmer in the North Carolina Coastal Plain or the long-unemployed paper-mill worker living up the holler in yet non-touristed WNC who are some kind of collective True Enemy of Progressivism. It's the suburbs/exurbs that are, in many ways, superficially indistinguishable from the suburbs/exurbs that trend left (they may be neighbors) , even if they are philosophically at extreme odds. And I don't know how you divide that, exactly.
And I don't know how things are in Tennessee or Alabama or Georgia any other state in the south, but I'm guessing it's pretty similar. I would much rather imagine a judiciary that gave a single fucking shit about Voting Rights than, say civil war, but if that ship has indeed sailed, I don't think the political breakdown of our divided nation is as geographically tidy as people want to believe it is.
posted by thivaia at 11:32 AM on November 3, 2021 [26 favorites]
I think the crisis of inequality we've been grappling with since it was 'morning in America' is much more based on economic injustice rather than socio-political injustice.
I mostly agree, though I don't draw as hard a line as you seem to between socio-political and economic forms of injustice.
It seems to me that economic injustice is part and parcel of the essentially totalitarian socio-political form of almost all large modern businesses, and that democratizing business could go quite a long way toward correcting it.
It further seems to me that one good place to start tackling that is with laws that provide public funding for the creation of worker- and/or customer-owned cooperatives i.e. corporations where employment and/or custom involves becoming a part-owner with one equally weighted vote at shareholder meetings, and only natural persons - that is, specifically not corporate persons - are eligible to become part-owners.
Such cooperatives would then be allowed to compete in existing markets without being required to pay any corporate taxes whatsoever. This would give them an edge over their totalitarian competitors, who would of course need to continue paying whatever they do already for ongoing maintenance of their customary money laundering and tax avoidance structures.
Customer-owned businesses selling to their own part-owners would also be allowed to do so without paying sales taxes. Also, in customer-owned businesses all profits would be normally be ploughed back into the growth and/or operation of the business Amazon style, rather than being paid out as dividends. This is the way that existing credit unions are already run, even those that have emerged from their larval stage as fully formed banks.
Any typical small family business should be very easily reconfigured as a worker-owned cooperative. And it would be great fun to watch Jeff and Elon start up a tax-exempt co-op between them and then try to make it do something useful without employing anybody else :-)
posted by flabdablet at 11:47 AM on November 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
I mostly agree, though I don't draw as hard a line as you seem to between socio-political and economic forms of injustice.
It seems to me that economic injustice is part and parcel of the essentially totalitarian socio-political form of almost all large modern businesses, and that democratizing business could go quite a long way toward correcting it.
It further seems to me that one good place to start tackling that is with laws that provide public funding for the creation of worker- and/or customer-owned cooperatives i.e. corporations where employment and/or custom involves becoming a part-owner with one equally weighted vote at shareholder meetings, and only natural persons - that is, specifically not corporate persons - are eligible to become part-owners.
Such cooperatives would then be allowed to compete in existing markets without being required to pay any corporate taxes whatsoever. This would give them an edge over their totalitarian competitors, who would of course need to continue paying whatever they do already for ongoing maintenance of their customary money laundering and tax avoidance structures.
Customer-owned businesses selling to their own part-owners would also be allowed to do so without paying sales taxes. Also, in customer-owned businesses all profits would be normally be ploughed back into the growth and/or operation of the business Amazon style, rather than being paid out as dividends. This is the way that existing credit unions are already run, even those that have emerged from their larval stage as fully formed banks.
Any typical small family business should be very easily reconfigured as a worker-owned cooperative. And it would be great fun to watch Jeff and Elon start up a tax-exempt co-op between them and then try to make it do something useful without employing anybody else :-)
posted by flabdablet at 11:47 AM on November 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
In fact, “[h]ighly educated people count skepticism a virtue. They typically would not report that they trust government, or any social institution, “most of the time.” What seems to make educated people uncomfortable, though, is the idea that the mass public shares this skepticism.”
Plato, is that you?
posted by non canadian guy at 12:34 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Plato, is that you?
posted by non canadian guy at 12:34 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't know where they're finding these Democrats. They sure as fuck didn't talk to me.
posted by Naberius at 1:02 PM on November 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 1:02 PM on November 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
When Democrats/liberals say that conservatives/Republicans "have the country's best interests at heart," they aren't wrong -- it's just that "the country" means something completely different to conservatives. They do not see homosexuals, immigrants, non-Christians, people of color, etc. as Americans, as part of this country. They want them (us) gone, or at the very least, safely subordinated and silenced. That's why they want to "make America great again" -- it's just an America that doesn't include anyone who isn't like them. Whereas liberals tend to want things to improve for everyone (or most people), conservatives only want things to improve for themselves.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:10 PM on November 3, 2021 [32 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:10 PM on November 3, 2021 [32 favorites]
I think it needs to be emphasized that that quote about distrust of government is from the end of the New Yorker piece, in the context of the author suggesting a series of concluding criticisms of the two new academic books being reviewed. And that was the opening criticism of the books' theories, whereas I think the more compelling one is the article author's final point that both books didn't seem to notice or discuss that this polarization is happening globally, not just in America.
posted by polymodus at 1:38 PM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 1:38 PM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
From the first link:
posted by mhum at 2:18 PM on November 3, 2021 [21 favorites]
The divide in the United States is wide, and one indication of that is how difficult our question proved for many thoughtful citizens. A 77-year-old Republican woman from Pennsylvania was typical of the voters who struggled with this question, telling us, “This is really hard for me to even try to think like a devilcrat!, I am sorry but I in all honesty cannot answer this question. I cannot even wrap my mind around any reason they would be good for this country.”I dunno about anyone else, but these examples don't really seem to me to indicate that "Democrats struggled just as much as Republicans". Was this the best example they had of a Democrat struggling to understand Republican views & motivations? Because it seems way, way less of a struggle than the "devilcrat" example.
[...]
Democrats struggled just as much as Republicans. A 33-year-old woman from California told said, “i really am going to have a hard time doing this” but then offered that Republicans “are morally right as in values, … going to protect us from terrorest and immigrants, … going to create jobs.”
posted by mhum at 2:18 PM on November 3, 2021 [21 favorites]
Registered Democrat here. My skepticism lies in a few key areas:
How do I make a persuasive academic argument to someone who has exempted themselves from critical thinking?
How do I appeal to the empathy of someone who is so neck-deep in righteously-indignant self-pity, he can think of no one but himself?
How do I compel someone to care about the health of humanity and the planet when she has spent every day of the last seventy years steadfastly believing the world would end Tomorrow?
I’ve tried loving the hate out of the right-wingers who surrounded me. I have not succeeded, to my knowledge, in nearly four decades. Cutting ties is all I have left in me.
posted by armeowda at 3:55 PM on November 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
How do I make a persuasive academic argument to someone who has exempted themselves from critical thinking?
How do I appeal to the empathy of someone who is so neck-deep in righteously-indignant self-pity, he can think of no one but himself?
How do I compel someone to care about the health of humanity and the planet when she has spent every day of the last seventy years steadfastly believing the world would end Tomorrow?
I’ve tried loving the hate out of the right-wingers who surrounded me. I have not succeeded, to my knowledge, in nearly four decades. Cutting ties is all I have left in me.
posted by armeowda at 3:55 PM on November 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
Last night's results have cemented that the GOP is the white and white-adjacent grievance party now. I really don't know where we go from here. Even if we survive this as a country somehow, and it isn't looking likely, it's going to get worse before it gets better.
I'm thinking about how people punished Democrats for passing the Civil Rights Act and Great Society programs with 40 years of harsh and toxic conservatism. I thought we might be ending that era but no. We've not even began improving things properly yet. This is the backlash to something that hasn't even happenes yet.
posted by ichomp at 4:04 PM on November 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm thinking about how people punished Democrats for passing the Civil Rights Act and Great Society programs with 40 years of harsh and toxic conservatism. I thought we might be ending that era but no. We've not even began improving things properly yet. This is the backlash to something that hasn't even happenes yet.
posted by ichomp at 4:04 PM on November 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Right now a lot of Republicans are making the claim on social media that President Biden shit his pants while at the Vatican. This claim was apparently pulled out of thin air by Amy Tarkanian, Newsmax contributor and former chair of the Nevada Republican Party. Despite no evidence to support this nonsense it is being presented as factual. Aside from the hatefulness and cruelty that seems to permeate the Republican Party, they no longer wish to engage in any kind of meaningful, reality based policy discussion, preferring instead to engage in grade-school level taunting. Unless any analysis of our political divide takes this behavior into account, it is just another meaningless exercise in both-siderism.
posted by TedW at 6:03 PM on November 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by TedW at 6:03 PM on November 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
I don't think that rumor is all that different from the pee tape rumor with Trump.
posted by riruro at 6:15 PM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by riruro at 6:15 PM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Except Biden is Biden and Trump is Trump.
But yeah, other than that small point , I really don't see much of a difference between them either. /s
posted by flamk at 8:13 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
But yeah, other than that small point , I really don't see much of a difference between them either. /s
posted by flamk at 8:13 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
It seems to me that there are three incompatible voting blocs (progressives, centrists, conservatives) and neither party has managed to figure out how to put two blocs into a functioning coalition for more than a single election cycle.
Everyone is aware of how terrible the institutions of the democratic party are at representing progressive voters, but if you look back to 2015-2017 you can see the republican party being just as incapable of representing their centrist voters. They couldn't even pass a cut down version of healthcare so they could murder the ACA.
posted by zymil at 8:22 PM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Everyone is aware of how terrible the institutions of the democratic party are at representing progressive voters, but if you look back to 2015-2017 you can see the republican party being just as incapable of representing their centrist voters. They couldn't even pass a cut down version of healthcare so they could murder the ACA.
posted by zymil at 8:22 PM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't think that rumor is all that different from the pee tape rumor with Trump.
I can’t believe I’m taking this bait, but no. No it’s not.
Lots of people have pooped their pants in highly public situations. Marathon runners, out of pure dedication to their sport. Talented actors who were lovingly feeding ducks. Respected reporters at the (Obama) White House.
And believe it or not, lots of people you know personally! People who happen to have IBS, colitis, Crohn’s, or a host of other medical conditions. People who know all too well the ableist shame rumors like this are designed to invoke.
You know who is not only rumored but pretty much admitted to have paid for various sex acts behind the backs of his wives? Selfish jerks like The Former Guy. Know what the pee tape’s existence would also imply? Vulnerability to Russian blackmail. Which, no shit, Sherlock.
…pardon the expression.
Whether or not the pee tape happened, the story reflects on the character of the subject as we know him.
“Pooped his pants at the Vatican” is right up there with “Hillary fainted, she’s medically frail and cAnNoT bE tRUsTeD!!1!”
From a guy whose supporters still believe he’s over 6’ tall and was “the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency,” no less.
posted by armeowda at 8:29 PM on November 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
I can’t believe I’m taking this bait, but no. No it’s not.
Lots of people have pooped their pants in highly public situations. Marathon runners, out of pure dedication to their sport. Talented actors who were lovingly feeding ducks. Respected reporters at the (Obama) White House.
And believe it or not, lots of people you know personally! People who happen to have IBS, colitis, Crohn’s, or a host of other medical conditions. People who know all too well the ableist shame rumors like this are designed to invoke.
You know who is not only rumored but pretty much admitted to have paid for various sex acts behind the backs of his wives? Selfish jerks like The Former Guy. Know what the pee tape’s existence would also imply? Vulnerability to Russian blackmail. Which, no shit, Sherlock.
…pardon the expression.
Whether or not the pee tape happened, the story reflects on the character of the subject as we know him.
“Pooped his pants at the Vatican” is right up there with “Hillary fainted, she’s medically frail and cAnNoT bE tRUsTeD!!1!”
From a guy whose supporters still believe he’s over 6’ tall and was “the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency,” no less.
posted by armeowda at 8:29 PM on November 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
I mean if you've never shit your pants before you are living life a little too conservatively, imo.
posted by Literaryhero at 11:38 PM on November 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Literaryhero at 11:38 PM on November 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
TBH, that kind of ridiculousness is nowhere near the most worrisome expression of their gullibility I've seen this week.
posted by wierdo at 11:39 PM on November 3, 2021
posted by wierdo at 11:39 PM on November 3, 2021
George H.W. Bush puked on the Japanese Prime Minister.
And in the interests of fairness, I'm willing to believe That Guy is actually over six feet tall, although it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn he puts lifts in his shoes.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:12 AM on November 4, 2021
And in the interests of fairness, I'm willing to believe That Guy is actually over six feet tall, although it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn he puts lifts in his shoes.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:12 AM on November 4, 2021
they no longer wish to engage in any kind of meaningful, reality based policy discussion, preferring instead to engage in grade-school level taunting
I mean...forget the pee tape, weren't people doing the same thing when the rumor was going around that Trump wore a diaper?
posted by mittens at 5:11 AM on November 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I mean...forget the pee tape, weren't people doing the same thing when the rumor was going around that Trump wore a diaper?
posted by mittens at 5:11 AM on November 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Was that actually reported by any media outlet (or even political gossip site that doesn't allow randos to post whatever the brain worms are telling them) rather than just rumor circulated on Facebook and Twitter?
posted by wierdo at 5:32 AM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 5:32 AM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
"I was 12 at the time, which was well back in the last century, and they had almost nothing to do with us after. That act consigned my father to a lonely death after my mother died, and I’ve regretted it so many times. But I’m pretty sure those branches of the family are Trumpists now, and the bridges I burned back then would be aflame as I write if I hadn’t already put them to the torch."
I have the feeling your family was already on thin ice with these folks, a preteen's rude comments don't usually cause cut ties.
posted by greatalleycat at 6:21 AM on November 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
I have the feeling your family was already on thin ice with these folks, a preteen's rude comments don't usually cause cut ties.
posted by greatalleycat at 6:21 AM on November 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
How do I make a persuasive academic argument ... appeal to the empathy ... compel someone to care about the health of humanity and the planet ...?
You can't. Facts and arguments directed at these people (well, really anyone, ourselves included, with a deeply held belief) will bounce off, and they will double-down. There have been various posts on Metafilter of psychological studies of the power of cognitive dissonance and the invulnerability of belief to factual argument.
The only tactic that might work is Socratic questioning, because if done well, the other person will expose the flaws and contradictions in their arguments by themselves, to themselves. And perhaps, in the long run, they might start questioning themselves and become a little less enmeshed in group-think and cultish devotion.
If you can get someone to try to explain their positions, ask them about their sources, question them as to the reliability of those sources, get them to explain why they trust such-and-such, identify contradictions, gaps, and assumptions and ask them to clarify, they might start to see for themselves what's wrong with their point of view.
My problem is... well, frankly, I can be an asshole -- my father was(is) an asshole, and my grandfather before him, and likely so on into the mists of forgotten time. So I was socialized into the, "Well, actually..." mode of discussion, in which the goal is to score points and show off how smart you are. I've done a fair bit of work to overcome that, but I still fall into that argumentative style if I'm not careful as some of my more regrettable comments throughout the Blue demonstrate, and besides that I get so immediately frustrated when I hear someone blindly repeat (what to me sounds like) some poorly thought out b.s. or mindlessly cruel, bigoted statement. Plus, the Socratic model requires a kind of supreme, zen-like self-confidence in yourself, your intellect, your beliefs; a complete abnegation of one's ego in the willingness to take on the role of questioner/student; and an abandoning of any immediate goal like "convince the other person" or "win the argument"; none of those are qualities our individualistic society and toxic masculinity really teach boys. So, I still have a really hard time letting myself relax into the state of open, critical questioning that it requires.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:18 AM on November 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
You can't. Facts and arguments directed at these people (well, really anyone, ourselves included, with a deeply held belief) will bounce off, and they will double-down. There have been various posts on Metafilter of psychological studies of the power of cognitive dissonance and the invulnerability of belief to factual argument.
The only tactic that might work is Socratic questioning, because if done well, the other person will expose the flaws and contradictions in their arguments by themselves, to themselves. And perhaps, in the long run, they might start questioning themselves and become a little less enmeshed in group-think and cultish devotion.
If you can get someone to try to explain their positions, ask them about their sources, question them as to the reliability of those sources, get them to explain why they trust such-and-such, identify contradictions, gaps, and assumptions and ask them to clarify, they might start to see for themselves what's wrong with their point of view.
My problem is... well, frankly, I can be an asshole -- my father was(is) an asshole, and my grandfather before him, and likely so on into the mists of forgotten time. So I was socialized into the, "Well, actually..." mode of discussion, in which the goal is to score points and show off how smart you are. I've done a fair bit of work to overcome that, but I still fall into that argumentative style if I'm not careful as some of my more regrettable comments throughout the Blue demonstrate, and besides that I get so immediately frustrated when I hear someone blindly repeat (what to me sounds like) some poorly thought out b.s. or mindlessly cruel, bigoted statement. Plus, the Socratic model requires a kind of supreme, zen-like self-confidence in yourself, your intellect, your beliefs; a complete abnegation of one's ego in the willingness to take on the role of questioner/student; and an abandoning of any immediate goal like "convince the other person" or "win the argument"; none of those are qualities our individualistic society and toxic masculinity really teach boys. So, I still have a really hard time letting myself relax into the state of open, critical questioning that it requires.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:18 AM on November 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
I have the feeling your family was already on thin ice with these folks, a preteen's rude comments don't usually cause cut ties.
Hahaha would like to submit that I also caused a 15 year rift between my father and his family as a "rude" preteen. In my case I noted that the political correctness my grandfather was railing against (literally just "happy holidays") was meant to specifically include him, a Jewish person, in tidings of goodwill. And as such it was the exact opposite of anyone telling him "how to think."
He responded by calling me a vile name for anyone but especially for a child. But sure, I was the rude one.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:53 AM on November 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
Hahaha would like to submit that I also caused a 15 year rift between my father and his family as a "rude" preteen. In my case I noted that the political correctness my grandfather was railing against (literally just "happy holidays") was meant to specifically include him, a Jewish person, in tidings of goodwill. And as such it was the exact opposite of anyone telling him "how to think."
He responded by calling me a vile name for anyone but especially for a child. But sure, I was the rude one.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:53 AM on November 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
^ usually I like to tell people they're lucky if they got a chance to meet their grandfathers (I didn't) but man.. I don't know
posted by elkevelvet at 3:15 PM on November 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by elkevelvet at 3:15 PM on November 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Now more than ever, we need non-violence and non-defensive communication.
Actions speak louder than words, even still. The problem is that television news speaks loudest of all, and very few of our political leaders know how to deploy it, much less deploy cable news for good ends
posted by eustatic at 6:28 PM on November 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Actions speak louder than words, even still. The problem is that television news speaks loudest of all, and very few of our political leaders know how to deploy it, much less deploy cable news for good ends
posted by eustatic at 6:28 PM on November 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm all for non-violence and non-defensive communication, but at the same time I'm genuinely worried about what one side of the American political body is attempting to do to my rights and freedom and safety.
posted by Jacen at 1:33 PM on November 6, 2021
posted by Jacen at 1:33 PM on November 6, 2021
In fact, “[h]ighly educated people count skepticism a virtue. They typically would not report that they trust government, or any social institution, “most of the time.” What seems to make educated people uncomfortable, though, is the idea that the mass public shares this skepticism.”
I don't think this is right. At least ... what makes me uncomfortable is that the reasons the mass public has for its skepticism are very different from mine and seem to me typically to be not very good. Because of the differences in our reasons, there are also differences in the manner of my skepticism as compared with the public's. And the kinds of evidence that matter with respect to my skepticism are different from the kinds of evidence that matter with respect to the public's.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 10:34 PM on November 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't think this is right. At least ... what makes me uncomfortable is that the reasons the mass public has for its skepticism are very different from mine and seem to me typically to be not very good. Because of the differences in our reasons, there are also differences in the manner of my skepticism as compared with the public's. And the kinds of evidence that matter with respect to my skepticism are different from the kinds of evidence that matter with respect to the public's.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 10:34 PM on November 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The problem with a racist, sexist, classist, xenophobic, homophobic, and transphobic society is that in order to improve things, you have to have buy-in from people who not only benefit from some/all of that, but also--even if they have misgivings about one or more pieces of that--are fully aware on a primal level that once we start to knock those pillars down, the whole structure is gonna fall.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:43 PM on November 8, 2021
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:43 PM on November 8, 2021
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I'll take Reasonable Sounding Excuses for Tribal Loyalty Performance for $500, LeVar.
posted by tclark at 5:21 PM on November 2, 2021 [87 favorites]