JEANS ARE MADE OF LIES!
December 14, 2021 10:22 AM Subscribe
"Hello, my name is Virginia, and in the past five weeks I have purchased 50 pairs of jeans. I have returned 48 pairs...American jeans brands are failing American consumers across the board. And they are especially failing fat consumers who want to buy women’s clothing. There are many complicated reasons for this, and quite a few of them are rooted in fatphobia. And yet: we keep buying, and hoping, and returning, and buying more. Because we can’t stop believing in a myth that is ostensibly about the “perfect jean,” but also about the bodies we think we should have." Virginia Sole-Smith: That Time I Bought 50 Pairs of Jeans. For Science (Substack; Part 1, more essays to follow).
If we have learned nothing from the pandemic, it's that jeans with buttons and/or zipper flies suck. I do not want to go back to jeans-wearing just because other people wear them. I think I just wore them to look "cool," not because I actually liked the too-small pockets and I don't look good in tight jeans.
That said, finding non-jean pants are surprisingly hard to do. I end up with giant hippie pants or sweatpants these days.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:47 AM on December 14, 2021
That said, finding non-jean pants are surprisingly hard to do. I end up with giant hippie pants or sweatpants these days.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:47 AM on December 14, 2021
OK, so I just read the beginning and I obviously have stockholm syndrome because I was thinking "Well of course they don't fit you IN THE AFTERNOON or THE NEXT DAY??? LOL...can you even imagine jeans fitting a second day? That's crazy talk."
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:48 AM on December 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:48 AM on December 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
... jeans with buttons and/or zipper flies suck.
I know I don't understand much about clothes, but what other kinds of jeans are there?
posted by MtDewd at 10:54 AM on December 14, 2021 [32 favorites]
I know I don't understand much about clothes, but what other kinds of jeans are there?
posted by MtDewd at 10:54 AM on December 14, 2021 [32 favorites]
Great post. Thanks!
Learning that I didn't have to wear jeans and could buy other kinds of pants at around the age of 13 stands out as the turning point when I became an adult. I love and respect people who wear jeans. But, I can't understand why they do. They're all uncomfortable and ill-fitting. If I could wear skirts at work without inviting complicated questions that I don't want to spend time answering, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I'm annoyed that men's clothing is now also fully committed to lying about the size of pants. I know women have it worse. But, if you're going to use the word "inches," that seems like it should be meaningful.
posted by eotvos at 10:57 AM on December 14, 2021 [24 favorites]
Learning that I didn't have to wear jeans and could buy other kinds of pants at around the age of 13 stands out as the turning point when I became an adult. I love and respect people who wear jeans. But, I can't understand why they do. They're all uncomfortable and ill-fitting. If I could wear skirts at work without inviting complicated questions that I don't want to spend time answering, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I'm annoyed that men's clothing is now also fully committed to lying about the size of pants. I know women have it worse. But, if you're going to use the word "inches," that seems like it should be meaningful.
posted by eotvos at 10:57 AM on December 14, 2021 [24 favorites]
I know I don't understand much about clothes, but what other kinds of jeans are there?
My jeans have buttons and flies and by mid-morning I don't even undo them. There's really no need.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:57 AM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
My jeans have buttons and flies and by mid-morning I don't even undo them. There's really no need.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:57 AM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Are women's jeans not designed to function with belts? This isn't me being "why don't women just wear a belt?" like it's a solution they never thought of, I'm just curious whether there is a specific design element to them that prevents belts from holding jeans up effectively.
posted by Ferreous at 10:58 AM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 10:58 AM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't want to belittle the author's experience and I know clothes-wearing is harder for women and especially harder for fat women.
This said, I am endowed with what Bear Bergman has called "a cello-shaped body" and a less diplomatic person might call "childbearing hips." In order to get trousers of any sort to fit comfortably around the hips and butt and not constantly worry about them sliding down my waist, there's this neat masc trick I use called wearing a belt.
Admittedly, this requires pants with functional belt loops, which womens' jeans may or may not have, in my experience.
Mens' jeans - especially cheap/fast-fashion mens' jeans - may not be a lot better. Mostly I wear slacks or leggings or both, these days.
posted by All Might Be Well at 11:00 AM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
This said, I am endowed with what Bear Bergman has called "a cello-shaped body" and a less diplomatic person might call "childbearing hips." In order to get trousers of any sort to fit comfortably around the hips and butt and not constantly worry about them sliding down my waist, there's this neat masc trick I use called wearing a belt.
Admittedly, this requires pants with functional belt loops, which womens' jeans may or may not have, in my experience.
Mens' jeans - especially cheap/fast-fashion mens' jeans - may not be a lot better. Mostly I wear slacks or leggings or both, these days.
posted by All Might Be Well at 11:00 AM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
My partner did this experiment a few years ago. Only it wasn't an experiment, she was just trying to find jeans that would actually fit her body without disintegrating after a few months. You would think capitalism could meet this very basic need, but no. She had to order online because most local stores don't carry jeans in her size, even though there are tons of women much larger than her. We had stacks and stacks of jeans that either didn't fit despite being the "right size," that no longer fit because she had gained or lost a few pounds, or were worn out between the thighs after a few wears. I don't think she ever found a pair that worked.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 11:00 AM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Gerald Bostock at 11:00 AM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I know I don't understand much about clothes, but what other kinds of jeans are there?
They've invented "jeggings" these days...
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:00 AM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
They've invented "jeggings" these days...
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:00 AM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
The problem with belts is that they make the waist fabric bunch up and then you have these of thick fabric pressed against your skin, which is uncomfortable. OR the fabric of the waist between the belt loops slides below the belt so the belt is against your skin and annoying and meanwhile the waist of the jeans hangs below the belt in a garland-sort of shape in the back.
I buy 3-4 pairs of new jeans every 3 months or so. I buy the same ones. They fit for the first hour or so and after that I just keep pulling them up.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:09 AM on December 14, 2021 [25 favorites]
I buy 3-4 pairs of new jeans every 3 months or so. I buy the same ones. They fit for the first hour or so and after that I just keep pulling them up.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:09 AM on December 14, 2021 [25 favorites]
Are women's jeans not designed to function with belts?
Admittedly, this requires pants with functional belt loops, which womens' jeans may or may not have, in my experience.
It is SPECTACULARLY hard to find a plus-sized belt that is designed for functionality (as opposed to fashion) and made of materials that:
- will hold up to more than 3-4 wearings without peeling, splitting or breaking
- will not poke holes in, snag, or otherwise damage your top (all my t-shirts have tiny holes at my waist that look like my belly button has teeth)
- aren't tiny 1/2" purse straps or giant 3" cinching belts
- aren't braided (the default for belts of men/women over a certain waist size, so they don't have to pick a size)
Then once you do, you have to hope your pants loops are functional and not decorative. You have to hope that the belt doesn't pull the waistband away from your butt when you're sitting down. You have to hope that the metal on the buckle doesn't give you a rash.
tldr: Sure belts are the obvious answer, but what if the state of belts in 2021 is just as broken as (or possibly more than) the state of jeans?
posted by ApathyGirl at 11:19 AM on December 14, 2021 [43 favorites]
Admittedly, this requires pants with functional belt loops, which womens' jeans may or may not have, in my experience.
It is SPECTACULARLY hard to find a plus-sized belt that is designed for functionality (as opposed to fashion) and made of materials that:
- will hold up to more than 3-4 wearings without peeling, splitting or breaking
- will not poke holes in, snag, or otherwise damage your top (all my t-shirts have tiny holes at my waist that look like my belly button has teeth)
- aren't tiny 1/2" purse straps or giant 3" cinching belts
- aren't braided (the default for belts of men/women over a certain waist size, so they don't have to pick a size)
Then once you do, you have to hope your pants loops are functional and not decorative. You have to hope that the belt doesn't pull the waistband away from your butt when you're sitting down. You have to hope that the metal on the buckle doesn't give you a rash.
tldr: Sure belts are the obvious answer, but what if the state of belts in 2021 is just as broken as (or possibly more than) the state of jeans?
posted by ApathyGirl at 11:19 AM on December 14, 2021 [43 favorites]
I know I don't understand much about clothes, but what other kinds of jeans are there?
ELASTIC WAISTBANDS
posted by Melismata at 11:27 AM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
ELASTIC WAISTBANDS
posted by Melismata at 11:27 AM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Is it the stretchy stuff they put in all the jeans now? I remember jeans being a comfortable item of clothing you could wear multiple times back in the 90s. Thick but soft denim.
posted by Mavri at 11:32 AM on December 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Mavri at 11:32 AM on December 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Is this the place to register a complaint against PATENTLY INACCURATE SIZINGS? Because I was a 32 waist when I was 23...and I'm pretty gd sure I'm not a 32 now. But The Gap, Levi's and a host of other vendors/manufacturers disagree.
posted by the sobsister at 11:33 AM on December 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by the sobsister at 11:33 AM on December 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
I can only speak for my body. For me, belts don't work for the same reason that women's jeans suck in general - because jeans are designed to hit below the waist aka on the tummy, and they are designed to fit tight in the waist/hips to accentuate our butt. So both belts and jeans waistbands will slide below my stomach unless they are tight enough to compress my fat, which gives a nice effect that has been belittled as a "muffin top." And as pointed out in the article, when fat women wear relaxed fit denim it's not fashion, it's something to mock.
I haven't tried high waisted jeans yet. I don't know if those have better staying power.
posted by muddgirl at 11:34 AM on December 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
I haven't tried high waisted jeans yet. I don't know if those have better staying power.
posted by muddgirl at 11:34 AM on December 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
I am also cello-shaped and what works for me is buying men's jeans and either wearing a belt, or altering my jeans.
Learning to that has been really great because I am also short, and it's hard to find anything in a 29 or 30 length that is both cool and cheap. I take up the cuffs, I usually have to take in the legs (for some reason, cheap men's jeans don't have any shaping on the legs-- they are just big cylinders where you do want some taper at the calves so they aren't flapping), and I take in the waist if I have to-- vanity sizing where a 38 is actually a 42 is much more common than you'd expect, and a lot of cheap jeans have pattern pieces cut very inaccurately, so the sizing sometimes means very little. I snip along the butt seam, pull in the fabric diagonally, and re-sew it. It's still less work than making my own pants.
This is a lot of work for a fucking $14 pair of Costco jeans, but they do ultimately fit and last a couple years that way. Which is more than I can say for women's clothes, which I have experience with because I like fashion and like 90% of my friends and colleagues are women who wear femme clothes. Part of the problem is that most manufacturers use at least 2% elastane in everything forever, which degrades with use and wear (and can't be recycled) so while the garment is going to be comfortably stretchy for a few months, it will rapidly degrade and stretch out over the long term. It is really common because using a mild amount of stretch in ready-to-wear covers a multitude of cutting and fitting sins at the point of purchase that an all-cotton garment can't do.
The other part of the problem is, obviously, contempt for the customer. If you are cool making a sale of a shitty garment that won't last, there is no other explanation to me. Because it's much more of a problem in women's clothes, which are made of tissue paper, wishes, and elastane, I can only call this misogyny.
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:35 AM on December 14, 2021 [23 favorites]
Learning to that has been really great because I am also short, and it's hard to find anything in a 29 or 30 length that is both cool and cheap. I take up the cuffs, I usually have to take in the legs (for some reason, cheap men's jeans don't have any shaping on the legs-- they are just big cylinders where you do want some taper at the calves so they aren't flapping), and I take in the waist if I have to-- vanity sizing where a 38 is actually a 42 is much more common than you'd expect, and a lot of cheap jeans have pattern pieces cut very inaccurately, so the sizing sometimes means very little. I snip along the butt seam, pull in the fabric diagonally, and re-sew it. It's still less work than making my own pants.
This is a lot of work for a fucking $14 pair of Costco jeans, but they do ultimately fit and last a couple years that way. Which is more than I can say for women's clothes, which I have experience with because I like fashion and like 90% of my friends and colleagues are women who wear femme clothes. Part of the problem is that most manufacturers use at least 2% elastane in everything forever, which degrades with use and wear (and can't be recycled) so while the garment is going to be comfortably stretchy for a few months, it will rapidly degrade and stretch out over the long term. It is really common because using a mild amount of stretch in ready-to-wear covers a multitude of cutting and fitting sins at the point of purchase that an all-cotton garment can't do.
The other part of the problem is, obviously, contempt for the customer. If you are cool making a sale of a shitty garment that won't last, there is no other explanation to me. Because it's much more of a problem in women's clothes, which are made of tissue paper, wishes, and elastane, I can only call this misogyny.
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:35 AM on December 14, 2021 [23 favorites]
Spandex is added to the vast majority of jeans in my experience. Covers up mediocre construction and lets sizes fit a larger range. Definitely shortens the lifespan of them immensely.
posted by Ferreous at 11:36 AM on December 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 11:36 AM on December 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
Also I will say that as a fat woman I was also taken aback at the idea that I could have jeans that I didn't have to hike up all day. Like I love my lands end straight leg jeans, I think they still look good after several days, but damn do they still ride down my fat stomach.
posted by muddgirl at 11:39 AM on December 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 11:39 AM on December 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Mail order when so many places have sizes that are a fantasy is super annoying. I will say I recently bought a pair of Duluth Trading Company jeans and they are true to size, have deep pockets (!!!) and are much sturdier denim than anything else I've bought in years. They go up to size 28W - I can't vouch for the quality of the larger sizes and don't know if they match the ones I bought in that regard but so far am pleased. Not a huge amount of spandex so they haven't stretched absurdly over multiple wears.
posted by leslies at 11:42 AM on December 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by leslies at 11:42 AM on December 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
For belts, let me plug Narragansett Leathers.
The company is run by a retired gentleman who custom makes belts and other leather goods. I've been using the belts I've ordered from him for more than seven years and they're still in great shape. The website is very Web 1.0; you place your order by sending in an email with the style and length of belt you want and then paypal-ing him the total he sends you. And they're reasonably priced.
Sizing is done by measuring an existing belt with a tape measure and sending him the actual measurement, so no need to worry about whatever random size inflation that the retailers are trying to pull these days.
posted by JDHarper at 11:45 AM on December 14, 2021 [14 favorites]
The company is run by a retired gentleman who custom makes belts and other leather goods. I've been using the belts I've ordered from him for more than seven years and they're still in great shape. The website is very Web 1.0; you place your order by sending in an email with the style and length of belt you want and then paypal-ing him the total he sends you. And they're reasonably priced.
Sizing is done by measuring an existing belt with a tape measure and sending him the actual measurement, so no need to worry about whatever random size inflation that the retailers are trying to pull these days.
posted by JDHarper at 11:45 AM on December 14, 2021 [14 favorites]
I think "mens" jeans are pretty much equally horrible in terms of size variance. The advantage they have is actual pockets and actual belt loops.
I think the people who manufacture them are simply not paid enough to care about consistent size. I own two pairs that are the same type, same size, different color, the second one ordered about one week after the first from the same store. One has about half an inch more rise but an inch less inseam than the other.
As a round fat person with relatively no hips, I have long hated what I thought was the necessity of wearing a belt that's constricting enough to keep jeans up. This year I discovered under-shirt suspenders (I don't ever tuck in my shirts anyway, if I can help it) and those are... not fun, but much less horrible.
posted by Foosnark at 11:45 AM on December 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I think the people who manufacture them are simply not paid enough to care about consistent size. I own two pairs that are the same type, same size, different color, the second one ordered about one week after the first from the same store. One has about half an inch more rise but an inch less inseam than the other.
As a round fat person with relatively no hips, I have long hated what I thought was the necessity of wearing a belt that's constricting enough to keep jeans up. This year I discovered under-shirt suspenders (I don't ever tuck in my shirts anyway, if I can help it) and those are... not fun, but much less horrible.
posted by Foosnark at 11:45 AM on December 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I wonder when it's going to start to matter that these things we have to shell out so much money for are not working for us. Every dollar you have represents an hour of being somewhere you didn't want to be doing something you didn't want to do. Then you have to give some to the government for rent for living in the country. Then you have to give some of it for rent for living in a house. Then you have to give some of it for the medication and food and water and electricity. Then with what little you have left you need clothes. But clothes that fit you, look nice & last more than a day aren't actually for sale, so good luck. Nothing makes any sense.
posted by bleep at 11:48 AM on December 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by bleep at 11:48 AM on December 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
I used to harbor the fantasy that a pair of jeans would fit my body, look okay and be comfortable. Since I've given it up and stopped wearing jeans, my life has improved immeasurably.
posted by pangolin party at 12:02 PM on December 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by pangolin party at 12:02 PM on December 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
I solve this problem by basically being ok looking a touch slovenly in jeans. (Admittedly easier when the idea of attracting/keeping partners is not part of the personal equation, sorry allosexuals.)
posted by rewil at 12:07 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by rewil at 12:07 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Clothing is one area where retail is going to be missed. Instead of going to the mall/downtown and quickly trying on a bunch of clothes from different retailers, we're now paying to ship these exact same clothes halfway around the country to discover in five seconds that they don't fit. And wasting our time returning every single shipment, and hoping that they receive your return in the same condition, and crediting your account correctly.
posted by meowzilla at 12:22 PM on December 14, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 12:22 PM on December 14, 2021 [17 favorites]
I'm a pretty solid pear shaped lady. The last time I tried to wear a belt with jeans was in back int the designer low rise bootcut+going-out-top era, when the jeans were low enough rise on me (short-waisted, large hips) that I needed something to keep my fat rolls and ass crack from constantly being on display. The belts were mostly a larf, because belts made to go around where low-rise jeans actually landed on my body required jeans so large through the butt it looked like I was wearing a diaper. And the whole point of those jeans was the butt thing. So I just took to wearing multiple tank tops underneath actual tops (sometimes, hilariously set off by one of those purely decorative oversized hip belts) to keep my lower abdomen reasonably clothed in public. Good riddance low rise jeans. You are the work of the devil.
These days I wear highwaisted jeans and I like them much, much better, even if they do tend to ride down after a few hours. Belts are pretty useless there too (mostly because my waist is the bottom of my rib cage, which is maybe (maybe?) 1.5 inches from my hips (I told you, SHORT WAISTED), which makes traditional belts pretty uncomfortable, unless they're like a sash/ribbon on a full-skirted dress situation.
Broadly speaking I have some favorite jeans (Universal Standard and Warp & Weft work pretty well on me. I also have a secret weakness for the Uniqlo cigarette jean, which they make kind of sort of occasionally), but if I'm 100% honest, I have never really been able to find a pair of jeans/pants/trousers, save leggings, that has ever felt like it's been made for my body shape/type. That's fine. I like skirts/dresses. I don't even mind tights (they are so, so, so much more comfortable than jeans on me and that is the God's Honest Truth)
posted by thivaia at 12:24 PM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
These days I wear highwaisted jeans and I like them much, much better, even if they do tend to ride down after a few hours. Belts are pretty useless there too (mostly because my waist is the bottom of my rib cage, which is maybe (maybe?) 1.5 inches from my hips (I told you, SHORT WAISTED), which makes traditional belts pretty uncomfortable, unless they're like a sash/ribbon on a full-skirted dress situation.
Broadly speaking I have some favorite jeans (Universal Standard and Warp & Weft work pretty well on me. I also have a secret weakness for the Uniqlo cigarette jean, which they make kind of sort of occasionally), but if I'm 100% honest, I have never really been able to find a pair of jeans/pants/trousers, save leggings, that has ever felt like it's been made for my body shape/type. That's fine. I like skirts/dresses. I don't even mind tights (they are so, so, so much more comfortable than jeans on me and that is the God's Honest Truth)
posted by thivaia at 12:24 PM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Clothing is one area where retail is going to be missed. Instead of going to the mall/downtown and quickly trying on a bunch of clothes from different retailers, we're now paying to ship these exact same clothes halfway around the country to discover in five seconds that they don't fit.
They just barely opened dressing rooms at Target where I live, like 3 weeks ago. Before that it was purchase and 'good luck', so the one real advantage they had over Amazon they gave away. Other mall apparel brands were like 50/50 on whether changing areas were open or not.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:29 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also, I just want to point out that the amount of variation in women's bodies, even standard-sized women's bodies, is not something that any jean manufacturer really wants to deal with. Even the size-inclusive, totally body positive jeans manufacturers. Like, we need a different way to figure measurements. Because, as a wearer of size 14-18 jeans (any/all the time, depending on the manufacturer) I can tell you that we 14-18 ladies are not seriously, totally even a little built the same.
posted by thivaia at 12:32 PM on December 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 12:32 PM on December 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
Belts have never solved the problem of poorly-made jeans/pants for me, and I've tried. Jeans are usually ill-fitting around my stomach/hips/butt in a way that a belt doesn't help, except in the loosest "putting a bandaid over an injury" sense.
Like the problem I have with jeans is that there's a ton of extra material but all in the wrong place, and the material is cheap so it's too tight at first and then sags all over after multiple wears. Belts are usually too large to fit my waist (so I end up with a ton of extra belt) or too small to fit my hips (so they're useless) and wearing them with jeans just looks significantly more frumpy and unflattering than if I hadn't bothered.
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:44 PM on December 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Like the problem I have with jeans is that there's a ton of extra material but all in the wrong place, and the material is cheap so it's too tight at first and then sags all over after multiple wears. Belts are usually too large to fit my waist (so I end up with a ton of extra belt) or too small to fit my hips (so they're useless) and wearing them with jeans just looks significantly more frumpy and unflattering than if I hadn't bothered.
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:44 PM on December 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I am never putting pants with a zipper or a button on my body ever again. Sorry, but elastic waist bands for life.
posted by all about eevee at 12:45 PM on December 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by all about eevee at 12:45 PM on December 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
I was about to recommend my jeans (I only have 2 pair, they're they same brand and same color) as a kind of denim holy grail because I have worn them constantly for years and they still look quite like their original selves! But then I remembered that I do, in fact, have to hitch them up constantly while wearing them, and I can never tell whether that means they are too large or too small or somehow both at once.
And I just can't abide belts, whether it's residual 90s trauma or short-waistedness or just a function of really hating the extra bulk, I could not tell you.
The buttons on my jeans eat away at my t-shirts as badly as any belt anyway. I'm tempted to start telling folks my belly button has teeth.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:45 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
And I just can't abide belts, whether it's residual 90s trauma or short-waistedness or just a function of really hating the extra bulk, I could not tell you.
The buttons on my jeans eat away at my t-shirts as badly as any belt anyway. I'm tempted to start telling folks my belly button has teeth.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:45 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
I love jeans so much that when I was in high school in the 1980s and we had to dress up for school extracurriculars - which in my case meant a dress, hose and women's shoes, all usually borrowed from my mom - when I got home at night after the concert/speech tournament/whatever, and got the weird stuff off my legs, I would generally put on jeans and often sleep in them in relief. :-D
That said, because of this thread I can now blame my thigh-wearouts on the elasticity as well as on my big fat thighs, so thanks!
posted by Occula at 12:49 PM on December 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
That said, because of this thread I can now blame my thigh-wearouts on the elasticity as well as on my big fat thighs, so thanks!
posted by Occula at 12:49 PM on December 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Brands have tried different sizing for jeans - Lane Bryant had "Right Fit" in the mid-2000s, I don't think that ever worked for me either but that could be because Lane Bryant denim fabric was absolute bottom of the barrel garbage with like 25% spandex. Levi's had Curve ID which I never tried. Now there are apps that purport to scan your body and send you a pair of semi-custom jeans.
posted by muddgirl at 1:03 PM on December 14, 2021
posted by muddgirl at 1:03 PM on December 14, 2021
In one of my fitting books there's a bit about how the larger you are, the more variance there can be in how your mass is arranged on your frame. Two thin people with the same height and weight are almost certain to fit the same clothes. Two fat people of the same height and weight could carry that weight so differently, high or low, on the front, the back, or the sides, etc.
Anecdotally, my roommate and I are pretty close in height and weight and buy the same clothing sizes, but get totally different fits. Most of her bulk is in the front and mine on the sides, so often if something does not work for one of us it will on the other.
For belts, my waist is three sizes smaller than my hips on a standard sizing chart. So a belt that actually tightens all the way to my waist is bunching in so much fabric it looks ridiculous, especially with a thick jeans waistband, and cuts into me painfully when I bend over. That's assuming that jeans for women a) are constructed to sit at the waist, b) have usable belt loops at all, and c) have enough belt loops to actually do any good. The last time I tried, I realized my jeans had one loop in the back and two in front, which is a total engineering fail. It held up the jeans like a garter belt.
posted by buildmyworld at 1:07 PM on December 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
Anecdotally, my roommate and I are pretty close in height and weight and buy the same clothing sizes, but get totally different fits. Most of her bulk is in the front and mine on the sides, so often if something does not work for one of us it will on the other.
For belts, my waist is three sizes smaller than my hips on a standard sizing chart. So a belt that actually tightens all the way to my waist is bunching in so much fabric it looks ridiculous, especially with a thick jeans waistband, and cuts into me painfully when I bend over. That's assuming that jeans for women a) are constructed to sit at the waist, b) have usable belt loops at all, and c) have enough belt loops to actually do any good. The last time I tried, I realized my jeans had one loop in the back and two in front, which is a total engineering fail. It held up the jeans like a garter belt.
posted by buildmyworld at 1:07 PM on December 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
Something the OP almost gets to - I wonder if the source material does - is that the first couple of generations of rural jeans- and slacks-wearing women could almost all sew their own clothes and many did. Sometimes very well! So the popularization of jeans was trying to live up to that, as well as to movie stars' tailors. I have found tiny scraps of the contemporaneous discussions online, eg farm women’s columns in ag journals, not much.
posted by clew at 1:15 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by clew at 1:15 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
My favorite plain denim 5 pocket jeans went away, so I had pretty much the same experience. I ordered one pair of jeans from a different place, they fit, I ordered a bunch more, and discovered a) they varied widely in actual sizing and design despite being advertised as the same jeans and b) that apart from the first perfect fit ones, they stretched as you wore them and tried to fall down. I'm still looking for better jeans, but in the meantime I found these, Tightsup, which are belts that have a plus-size that actually is plus-size, stay in place, are inconspicuous, and snap together quickly so no annoying buckling and unbuckling. And are relatively cheap. The only disad I've found is that sometimes they get a bit distorted from being twisted or whatever after wearing, so I use two and wind the one I'm not using up into a semi-tight coil, which evens it out again.
posted by tavella at 1:18 PM on December 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by tavella at 1:18 PM on December 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I told a story here years ago about the time I ordered three pairs of the exact same jeans from Amazon - Levi's - and one was hilariously huge, one was about right, and one was so small my thigh didn't fit into it.
Now that I've transitioned, it's worse. Trying to find jeans is painful. Trying to find a bra is worse. (there's a new line out there that says they're "for every body" - this is a lie, as they don't support plus sizes). I order things and hope that I don't now give them too many interest-free loans as part of the return policy of "and in ten days after we get it back we will give you the refund".
The fact that plus-size women have not risen up like Maenads and torn the clothing makers apart should be astonishing to anyone; the fact that women, in general, have not should be considered proof of the existence of God.
posted by mephron at 1:31 PM on December 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Now that I've transitioned, it's worse. Trying to find jeans is painful. Trying to find a bra is worse. (there's a new line out there that says they're "for every body" - this is a lie, as they don't support plus sizes). I order things and hope that I don't now give them too many interest-free loans as part of the return policy of "and in ten days after we get it back we will give you the refund".
The fact that plus-size women have not risen up like Maenads and torn the clothing makers apart should be astonishing to anyone; the fact that women, in general, have not should be considered proof of the existence of God.
posted by mephron at 1:31 PM on December 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Jeans I have some of the above-stated problems with; belts rapidly became unusable until I got a belt with grommet holes.
posted by user92371 at 1:47 PM on December 14, 2021
posted by user92371 at 1:47 PM on December 14, 2021
After a recent clear-out, there's nothing pants-wise left in my closet except for black leggings. I have given up on everything else, I care for nothing but comfort, and I'm a fat old lady so nobody cares what I look like (when they see me at all). It's pretty liberating.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 2:04 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 2:04 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
My wife just orders whatever jeans come closest to fitting from Lane Bryant whenever they go on a good enough sale, knowing that she pretty much has to replace them annually. When even Lane Bryant went all in on skinny jeans she just wore the one older pair that looked the "best" out of the house, and had another pair she only wore at home, because skinny jeans are super unflattering on her. But between the stretchy fabric losing its shape and the cheap zippers failing, Lane Bryant jeans are not a long term purchase.
And even though they're the "best" fit she can find, bought at the store that tries to serve women her size, all her jeans and dress pants still gap at the waist when she sits so she has to dress around that problem. She has a lot of cardigans and wrap sweaters for the office, which also addresses the "office is perpetually too cold" problem.
posted by fedward at 2:09 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
And even though they're the "best" fit she can find, bought at the store that tries to serve women her size, all her jeans and dress pants still gap at the waist when she sits so she has to dress around that problem. She has a lot of cardigans and wrap sweaters for the office, which also addresses the "office is perpetually too cold" problem.
posted by fedward at 2:09 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Interesting discussion all around.
How would the cost of getting jeans that could last for a long time tailored just for you compare to buying new pairs every few months?
posted by clawsoon at 2:15 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
How would the cost of getting jeans that could last for a long time tailored just for you compare to buying new pairs every few months?
posted by clawsoon at 2:15 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I always wondered if the women's sizing problem could be solved by selling jeans based on hip size with the waist seams custom fitted like hems often are. Are their too many seams to deal with at the waist?
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:18 PM on December 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:18 PM on December 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
I live in jeans, since my job requires some physical work/lifting/crawling around on the floor. Lane Bryant, for whatever reason, has the jeans that work best for my shape.. I hit up their sales and have enough pairs that they don’t seem to wear out quickly. I thought Universal Standard would be a bust after my first pair, but I went down a size and now am really happy with the pair I have from them. But skinny jeans are my nemesis, because I hate how they feel. So I spent the past five years being out of fashion and now I hope jeans I like are gradually coming back.
posted by PussKillian at 2:38 PM on December 14, 2021
posted by PussKillian at 2:38 PM on December 14, 2021
How would the cost of getting jeans that could last for a long time tailored just for you compare to buying new pairs every few months?
For nice jeans, actual quality heavy strong cotton denim, well over $100, more like 2 or 3. When I researched this in the past, being petite height or plus size (or the unholy combo of both) was a non-starter because the people making pants like that don't want the extra challenge of fitting for our bodies. The other part of it is that I work in manufacturing and the environment is filthy. It's hard for me to wrap my head around paying custom tailored jeans prices for something that might be ruined (for non-work wearing) on day two.
posted by ApathyGirl at 2:47 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
For nice jeans, actual quality heavy strong cotton denim, well over $100, more like 2 or 3. When I researched this in the past, being petite height or plus size (or the unholy combo of both) was a non-starter because the people making pants like that don't want the extra challenge of fitting for our bodies. The other part of it is that I work in manufacturing and the environment is filthy. It's hard for me to wrap my head around paying custom tailored jeans prices for something that might be ruined (for non-work wearing) on day two.
posted by ApathyGirl at 2:47 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
I...did you even begin to think about thinking about reading TFA?
Probably not.. I don't even know what a TFA is.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:48 PM on December 14, 2021
To BrotherCaine's question, as someone who's had to take in some jeans in their day as a perfectionist who cares about construction details: the anatomy of a pair of jeans is really annoying. Look at your own jeans and it's similar. You have a single-piece waistband (with or without elastic lining) that wraps all the way around from buttonhole to riveted button and encases all the pieces of the front and back with their respective topstitching, and is then topstitched itself and topped off with belt loops.
And all that has to be put on from scratch if you want a nicely finished result. (Yes, a good tailor can take a chunk out of the waistband in an inconspicuous place, like under a belt loop before reattaching the belt loop, but that's always going to add bulk at an already-snug place. And it takes time and skill to match topstitching thread and keep everything aligned once you've made the snip. )
If you try to take a chunk out of the center back, then you have to match the topstitching at the buttcrack where symmetry is real important. If you pinch two darts out of the back in the pocket region, then the pockets might gape open if you take out more than like half an inch each.. If you take width out of the side seams, then you're messing with the factory topstitching and possibly the fade line that goes all the way down the leg. And if you need to take width out of the front to match the width you've taken out of the back, you're interacting with the front pockets in mysterious ways and it's better to just not unless you're willing to recapitulate the pleated jeans look of the 80s.
Basically you'd have to ship completely unfinished jeans and most of the actual construction including the riveting, topstitching, stonewashing, and sandblasting would have to be moved to the retailer. Or styles would have to change pretty substantially.
posted by fountainofdoubt at 2:54 PM on December 14, 2021 [24 favorites]
And all that has to be put on from scratch if you want a nicely finished result. (Yes, a good tailor can take a chunk out of the waistband in an inconspicuous place, like under a belt loop before reattaching the belt loop, but that's always going to add bulk at an already-snug place. And it takes time and skill to match topstitching thread and keep everything aligned once you've made the snip. )
If you try to take a chunk out of the center back, then you have to match the topstitching at the buttcrack where symmetry is real important. If you pinch two darts out of the back in the pocket region, then the pockets might gape open if you take out more than like half an inch each.. If you take width out of the side seams, then you're messing with the factory topstitching and possibly the fade line that goes all the way down the leg. And if you need to take width out of the front to match the width you've taken out of the back, you're interacting with the front pockets in mysterious ways and it's better to just not unless you're willing to recapitulate the pleated jeans look of the 80s.
Basically you'd have to ship completely unfinished jeans and most of the actual construction including the riveting, topstitching, stonewashing, and sandblasting would have to be moved to the retailer. Or styles would have to change pretty substantially.
posted by fountainofdoubt at 2:54 PM on December 14, 2021 [24 favorites]
I went up 2 pants sizes over the last year due to medication changes and *waves hands* everything. Jeans got really tough, and I coped partially by switching to ponte pants that have the same design features as jeans (5 pockets) but have given up all aspirations to denim. They are not fashionable. They are old lady pants. But I can wear comfortably and without constantly hiking them up.
posted by jeoc at 3:08 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by jeoc at 3:08 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I feel like I want to rant about the sizing inconsistency too, especially because the article foreshadows a lot of talk about Universal Standard. As a fat person with a stupid-high natural waist, I stumbled upon one of their tapered/skinny styles that was absolutely amazing, true to the size chart, minimal saggy stretch, etc. Went back for some stretchier black skinnies and some wide-leg stonewash jeans which were both listed as the same high rise, dutifully sized up in the skinnies and down in the wide-legs as advised on the website... and the size 26 of one is literally smaller than the size 22 of the other, which has relaxed enough by 5PM of wearing it that it's bigger than the size 24 of that perfect pair at the bottom of my laundry pile.
It's the same brand! At least one of their designers presumably knows the percent stretch of the different fabrics they're buying!
I suppose I should have paid attention when their actual "Product Measurement" charts only listed rise, inseam, and ankle hem diameter and for waist/hip you just have to refer to the size guide that's the same for any item and *maybe* notice the text collapsed in one of the info tabs that implores you to please size down for this item. It's exhausting.
posted by fountainofdoubt at 3:10 PM on December 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
It's the same brand! At least one of their designers presumably knows the percent stretch of the different fabrics they're buying!
I suppose I should have paid attention when their actual "Product Measurement" charts only listed rise, inseam, and ankle hem diameter and for waist/hip you just have to refer to the size guide that's the same for any item and *maybe* notice the text collapsed in one of the info tabs that implores you to please size down for this item. It's exhausting.
posted by fountainofdoubt at 3:10 PM on December 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
Universal Standard seems like it should be right up my alley, but they seem to be in love with skinny jeans, and a hundred bucks per is a pretty expensive experiment.
posted by tavella at 3:44 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 3:44 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Like, we need a different way to figure measurements.
It would be cool if women's jeans could be bought by dimensions instead of a vague non-standard number system! And we know jeans companies can do that since that's how men's jeans are sized.
Maybe even with a few other measurements: definitely length and waist, but also hips. And maybe hip bone. And I'm betting tailors have a way to differentiate between tummy and butt girth, since that will affect fit, but I don't know what it is.
I love wearing jeans in general (they feel kind of like armor compared to other clothes), but none of my jeans fit and I haven't been able to find suitable replacements for years. I want the plainest of plain jeans: pants that are straight-leg, not cropped, a reasonable rise, and actually fit. Dark blue, black, or gray. No pre-made holes or other embellishments. Just basic-ass jeans. Apparently that is too much to ask.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:46 PM on December 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
It would be cool if women's jeans could be bought by dimensions instead of a vague non-standard number system! And we know jeans companies can do that since that's how men's jeans are sized.
Maybe even with a few other measurements: definitely length and waist, but also hips. And maybe hip bone. And I'm betting tailors have a way to differentiate between tummy and butt girth, since that will affect fit, but I don't know what it is.
I love wearing jeans in general (they feel kind of like armor compared to other clothes), but none of my jeans fit and I haven't been able to find suitable replacements for years. I want the plainest of plain jeans: pants that are straight-leg, not cropped, a reasonable rise, and actually fit. Dark blue, black, or gray. No pre-made holes or other embellishments. Just basic-ass jeans. Apparently that is too much to ask.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:46 PM on December 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
I will say that I've noticed one positive development: length-wise, I can find way more options that aren't 6" too long because they were designed to be worn with high heels.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:55 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:55 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Good riddance low rise jeans. You are the work of the devil.
Amen to that. Wrangler makes some good, reasonably priced high rise jeans. As for belts, I really don't know why they still dominate over suspenders.
posted by No Robots at 4:34 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Amen to that. Wrangler makes some good, reasonably priced high rise jeans. As for belts, I really don't know why they still dominate over suspenders.
posted by No Robots at 4:34 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Suspenders are a pain to wear if you have a larger bust.
posted by Peach at 4:39 PM on December 14, 2021
posted by Peach at 4:39 PM on December 14, 2021
Holy cow, fountainofdoubt, I HAD NO IDEA there was so much involved in, y'know, a pair of jeans.
Super-informative comment, thank you very much.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:41 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Super-informative comment, thank you very much.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:41 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I recently learned that for men's jeans, smaller waist sizes have 5 belt loops, larger waist sizes have 7, so there's a factoid.
If you put stuff with spandex/ elastic in the dryer, it's life span is dramatically shortened, and jeans are expensive. My favorite pair of jeans is sturdy cotton from Talbots, via a thrift shop; bought in desperation when I gained pandemic weight. Couldn't try them on, didn't notice they're cut as capris that you're supposed to roll up up 1 fold. So I wear nicer socks and wear them in winter anyway because they're just really nice. I work at home, no one sees me wear them 6 days in a row.
posted by theora55 at 4:47 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
If you put stuff with spandex/ elastic in the dryer, it's life span is dramatically shortened, and jeans are expensive. My favorite pair of jeans is sturdy cotton from Talbots, via a thrift shop; bought in desperation when I gained pandemic weight. Couldn't try them on, didn't notice they're cut as capris that you're supposed to roll up up 1 fold. So I wear nicer socks and wear them in winter anyway because they're just really nice. I work at home, no one sees me wear them 6 days in a row.
posted by theora55 at 4:47 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Good riddance low rise jeans.
I like low-rise jeans because high-rise jeans dig into my torso in an uncomfortable way and make me look like an oompa loompa. (I don't know why. They do not do this to other people.)
Proposal: what if we could have more than one kind of jeans and a wide variety of sizes on the market at a time so that there was something for everyone?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 4:58 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
I like low-rise jeans because high-rise jeans dig into my torso in an uncomfortable way and make me look like an oompa loompa. (I don't know why. They do not do this to other people.)
Proposal: what if we could have more than one kind of jeans and a wide variety of sizes on the market at a time so that there was something for everyone?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 4:58 PM on December 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
It is comforting to discover that jeans are essentially impossible as a woman, because here I thought I was doing my transition wrong, but no, they apparently just suck globally. I wish they didn't suck. Men's jeans were really nice, as long as you were one of the shapes they consider "worth targeting". I haven't been able to buy new men's jeans for years because my old shape was, apparently, not worth targeting. The more things change, the more things stay the same.
I will share a useful tip on "belts" that I got from a diner, and this will sound somewhat crazy, but: plastic wrap, twisted into a belt, is durable to the point that you may need scissors to remove it. I don't know how to combine that with Fashionable Artistic Fabrics in order to make a useful belt, but my nerd brain points out that you could use wire-wrapping techniques to twine the plastic wrap into itself at a buckle at each end, put heat-shrink tubing along the entire length of it, and fashion yourself a "cable belt" out of the result.
That this seems like the most viable solution I'm going to find for a belt as a woman is greatly depressing, and is also why I've worn nothing but workout pants for two straight years, with another year looking likely. I have no idea what to do for pants now. I haven't tried the 3-d form-fitted jeans yet. If someone else has been brave enough, I'd love to know how it goes.
posted by Callisto Prime at 5:19 PM on December 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
I will share a useful tip on "belts" that I got from a diner, and this will sound somewhat crazy, but: plastic wrap, twisted into a belt, is durable to the point that you may need scissors to remove it. I don't know how to combine that with Fashionable Artistic Fabrics in order to make a useful belt, but my nerd brain points out that you could use wire-wrapping techniques to twine the plastic wrap into itself at a buckle at each end, put heat-shrink tubing along the entire length of it, and fashion yourself a "cable belt" out of the result.
That this seems like the most viable solution I'm going to find for a belt as a woman is greatly depressing, and is also why I've worn nothing but workout pants for two straight years, with another year looking likely. I have no idea what to do for pants now. I haven't tried the 3-d form-fitted jeans yet. If someone else has been brave enough, I'd love to know how it goes.
posted by Callisto Prime at 5:19 PM on December 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
BrotherCaine, you need at minimum seven additional measurements to make that work, assuming a stretchy denim and a symmetrical person: 1 waist size; 234 hip to waist vertical distance front, back, side; 56 crotch to waist distance front, back; 7 leg opening diameter.
For any group of people with a given 1 waist size, I'm not sure you can guarantee any of 234, 56, 7 being consistent across them, either as ratio-to-waist-size or as a lookup table. (This problem exists for guy jeans, too, but male mass distribution differences in both placement and variability per month are less likely to interfere with jeans.)
posted by Callisto Prime at 5:35 PM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
For any group of people with a given 1 waist size, I'm not sure you can guarantee any of 234, 56, 7 being consistent across them, either as ratio-to-waist-size or as a lookup table. (This problem exists for guy jeans, too, but male mass distribution differences in both placement and variability per month are less likely to interfere with jeans.)
posted by Callisto Prime at 5:35 PM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
It is SPECTACULARLY hard to find a plus-sized belt that is designed for functionality (as opposed to fashion) and made of materials that...
This x1000.
Hard-won protip: The best plus-sized belts I have ever owned (or even encountered) come from Lafayette 148.
Lafayette 148 is primarily for wealthy femme-presenting people over 50, which is a population that does not play when it comes to accessory quality. Their stuff is extremely expensive new, but quite findable on the secondary market. (IME, their belts run about one t-shirt size smaller than you'd expect.)
Fellow plus-sized femmes-of-fashion: Buy -any- Lafayette 148 belt you come across that fits you. Even if it looks like it belongs on L.A. Law and you can't imagine what you'd do with it. Maybe especially then.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 5:37 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
This x1000.
Hard-won protip: The best plus-sized belts I have ever owned (or even encountered) come from Lafayette 148.
Lafayette 148 is primarily for wealthy femme-presenting people over 50, which is a population that does not play when it comes to accessory quality. Their stuff is extremely expensive new, but quite findable on the secondary market. (IME, their belts run about one t-shirt size smaller than you'd expect.)
Fellow plus-sized femmes-of-fashion: Buy -any- Lafayette 148 belt you come across that fits you. Even if it looks like it belongs on L.A. Law and you can't imagine what you'd do with it. Maybe especially then.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 5:37 PM on December 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
(IME, their belts run about one t-shirt size smaller than you'd expect.)
BIGGER. Lafayette 148's belts run one t-shirt size BIGGER than you'd expect. Oops!
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 6:54 PM on December 14, 2021
BIGGER. Lafayette 148's belts run one t-shirt size BIGGER than you'd expect. Oops!
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 6:54 PM on December 14, 2021
I have given up on tailoring jeans or pants for myself, my last effort was one of those send your measurements and get a custom pattern printed out deals and it was somehow worse than the mess I got trying to trace off an almost fitting pair. My issue is that my hips stick out at the side like a pair of panniers. Someone once described it as "the top half a tall thin person stuck on the bottom half of a short fat person" and to that I added "and they didn't even try to match the waist up right."
It was a source of pain and angst in my 20s and 30s and trying to pass as normal in an office. But now at 50 I embrace my eccentricities, shave my head, and have no more fucks to give about pretending to care about fashion. Yoga pants, leggings, and skirts work fine for me.
posted by buildmyworld at 7:16 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
It was a source of pain and angst in my 20s and 30s and trying to pass as normal in an office. But now at 50 I embrace my eccentricities, shave my head, and have no more fucks to give about pretending to care about fashion. Yoga pants, leggings, and skirts work fine for me.
posted by buildmyworld at 7:16 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Universal Standard seems like it should be right up my alley, but they seem to be in love with skinny jeans, and a hundred bucks per is a pretty expensive experiment.
True about the skinny jeans, but their non-skinny ones are an absolute dream. If they stop making the Stevie selvedge ones, I will cry for a month.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 7:35 PM on December 14, 2021
I had a collection of links on jeans fitting over the last few decades and almost all of them are broken. I particularly regret a chatboard I remember with horsewomen recommending the vanishing jeans companies that made non-stretch jeans that fit muscular butts and thighs, or how to make them (as the companies quit doing it). Great sewing advice. But the younger readers were disgusted that anyone ever made denim jeans that fit your butt, instead of wearing Lululemon tights to squash it all together respectably.
Anyway, adding to fountainofdoubt:
* some of the places seams cross in jeans are so thick that you are advised to hammer the first seams to soften them up before sewing the cross seam. Taking that hammered seam apart May Not Work the way you'd hope.
* if your jeans fit your hips/thighs but are too big in the waist in the back, it isn't even sufficient to take the waistband and part of the center back seam in -- to truly make them fit, you have to make the back yoke *taller* as well as narrower.
* Lots of fit problems that show over the hips and thighs are actually because of the extensions in the fork (crotch). This is a confusing place where sometimes adding material makes the clothes fit more snugly and simultaneously allow more movement. It's the parts circled in blue on this diagram. Very sporty pants put a gusset there, which is those triangles as a separate piece. Some people manage to add gussets to existing jeans.
Those extensions are, an expert suggests, one of the places manufacturers cut costs -- they make the pattern pieces less rectangular, so fewer fit on the yardage, which is expensive. Also the less rectangular the pattern pieces, the more those are bias seams which are harder to sew accurately. But having bias in the right places to stretch to fit the person is how denim jeans originally fit! There's no reason to think that can be replaced by spandex and have the same effect ever, let alone over a day or years of wearing the garment.
posted by clew at 7:58 PM on December 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
Anyway, adding to fountainofdoubt:
* some of the places seams cross in jeans are so thick that you are advised to hammer the first seams to soften them up before sewing the cross seam. Taking that hammered seam apart May Not Work the way you'd hope.
* if your jeans fit your hips/thighs but are too big in the waist in the back, it isn't even sufficient to take the waistband and part of the center back seam in -- to truly make them fit, you have to make the back yoke *taller* as well as narrower.
* Lots of fit problems that show over the hips and thighs are actually because of the extensions in the fork (crotch). This is a confusing place where sometimes adding material makes the clothes fit more snugly and simultaneously allow more movement. It's the parts circled in blue on this diagram. Very sporty pants put a gusset there, which is those triangles as a separate piece. Some people manage to add gussets to existing jeans.
Those extensions are, an expert suggests, one of the places manufacturers cut costs -- they make the pattern pieces less rectangular, so fewer fit on the yardage, which is expensive. Also the less rectangular the pattern pieces, the more those are bias seams which are harder to sew accurately. But having bias in the right places to stretch to fit the person is how denim jeans originally fit! There's no reason to think that can be replaced by spandex and have the same effect ever, let alone over a day or years of wearing the garment.
posted by clew at 7:58 PM on December 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
more from the clothing manufacturing consultant Fasanella:
Most of the time, camel toe is caused by wearing pants that are too big -in one specific area- making a reciprocal area too small. It’s an engineering problem [...] The poor engineering exemplified by camel toe has become one of my favorite topics of discussion -with those near and dear- because I can slap down the all too common fat-bashing myth perpetuated at the expense of heavier chicks accused of wearing their pants too tight AND -quite gleefully- I have two of my favorite culprits to blame; those being outsourcing and the use of CAD pattern templates. With those two targets in my sights, I just couldn’t be any jollier. The victim is innocent. The Man is to blame.posted by clew at 8:07 PM on December 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
A question, for MeFites who were buying & fitting & wearing jeans in the 1970's and before:
How well did the bathtub method actually work?
AIUI, the original Levi's 501s were truly shrink-to-fit. Made of 'raw denim', meaning cotton untreated after the dyeing process, one got a good fit by.
Buy 1 inch larger in waist, 2 inches longer in leg. Put on jeans. Sit in a bathtub full of water for 30 mins. Exit tub, and wear wet jeans until they dry. This made the cotton fibers loosen, then shrink and set, to conform to your actual...um, self.
How well did this work in practice?
I can imagine the hassle of slap-slapping around the place in wet jeans for a few hours being worth having jeans that actually fit for the rest of their working life - IF that method was actually effective. Was it?
posted by bartleby at 8:25 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
How well did the bathtub method actually work?
AIUI, the original Levi's 501s were truly shrink-to-fit. Made of 'raw denim', meaning cotton untreated after the dyeing process, one got a good fit by.
Buy 1 inch larger in waist, 2 inches longer in leg. Put on jeans. Sit in a bathtub full of water for 30 mins. Exit tub, and wear wet jeans until they dry. This made the cotton fibers loosen, then shrink and set, to conform to your actual...um, self.
How well did this work in practice?
I can imagine the hassle of slap-slapping around the place in wet jeans for a few hours being worth having jeans that actually fit for the rest of their working life - IF that method was actually effective. Was it?
posted by bartleby at 8:25 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Also, as part of the time in lock down and working from home in leggings/yoga pants/sweats, I have heard jeans referred to as 'hard pants'.
As in, I'd consider going back to the office, but damned if I'm wearing hard pants ever again.
posted by bartleby at 8:38 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
As in, I'd consider going back to the office, but damned if I'm wearing hard pants ever again.
posted by bartleby at 8:38 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
All this palaver kind of informs my slight anxiety when I'm travelling westward because I'd be leaving a culture where a sarung (sarongs in english) is a perfectly acceptable work and formal clothing item. Without that it's just tights and leggings with a long top.
posted by cendawanita at 8:42 PM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:42 PM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
I have two pair of Levi 501's that will fit me once I lose the last ten pounds of covid weight. I can put them on now, but they are a little tight in the very uppermost thigh on me at the moment. Ten pounds should fix that. Even when I'm at pre-covid weight, though, the waistband gaps big enough that I can shove two closed fists down the back. (This is a problem with almost every single pair of pants I own and it's because my hip measurement is 11 inches smaller than my waist measurement at every single weight I have ever been. I do not hold the waistband gap against the 501's in particular.)
If your waist and hip measurements are closer together than mine AND you don't carry your weight in a low pear bottom shape, you may have some legit success with the Levi 501 jeans thing as long as you are willing to fight with the shrink-to-fit. They are HUGE, like HYOOOGE, when you start and they don't break in all that fast. Once they are broken in, they last for a long time. I did not do the bathtub method, but I did wash them once in hot water, put them on (wet) and did deep knee bends, etc to get them to conform to me. Then I carefully took them off, hung them to dry in the air, washed them in hot water again, repeated the fit stretches, hung them to dry a second time, and then started wearing them. They do not have ANY elastic in them, no stretch whatsoever. So, if you're used to the thin, stretchy stuff that jeans are now made of, these will come as a shock to you.
posted by which_chick at 8:53 PM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
If your waist and hip measurements are closer together than mine AND you don't carry your weight in a low pear bottom shape, you may have some legit success with the Levi 501 jeans thing as long as you are willing to fight with the shrink-to-fit. They are HUGE, like HYOOOGE, when you start and they don't break in all that fast. Once they are broken in, they last for a long time. I did not do the bathtub method, but I did wash them once in hot water, put them on (wet) and did deep knee bends, etc to get them to conform to me. Then I carefully took them off, hung them to dry in the air, washed them in hot water again, repeated the fit stretches, hung them to dry a second time, and then started wearing them. They do not have ANY elastic in them, no stretch whatsoever. So, if you're used to the thin, stretchy stuff that jeans are now made of, these will come as a shock to you.
posted by which_chick at 8:53 PM on December 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
IIRC you got quite a lot of shrink-to-fit out of just getting sweaty and damp and active in heavy denim. I never did the bathtub, but also I don't remember caring which load my jeans went into, so periodically they were washed on hot and were stiff and tight until I wore them back in (hours, not days).
posted by clew at 9:06 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 9:06 PM on December 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
How well did the bathtub method actually work?
When 501s became trendy in high school, my mom thought this was insane (as prewashed denim was actually the size it claimed to be and didn't require the fuss) but she also just suggested washing them and hanging them to dry, doing that again, and then starting to wear them and wash and dry normally. There was no wearing them wet. After those first couple washes they pinched in random places but the fabric broke in enough not to be uncomfortable in a couple weeks, and they were actually comfortable after a couple months. They stopped looking new after about six months unless you tried to bleach them or wash them with rocks or something (all things people at my school did).
NB I'm male and I was a beanpole then. I didn't have the hip problem that women would have.
posted by fedward at 9:11 PM on December 14, 2021
When 501s became trendy in high school, my mom thought this was insane (as prewashed denim was actually the size it claimed to be and didn't require the fuss) but she also just suggested washing them and hanging them to dry, doing that again, and then starting to wear them and wash and dry normally. There was no wearing them wet. After those first couple washes they pinched in random places but the fabric broke in enough not to be uncomfortable in a couple weeks, and they were actually comfortable after a couple months. They stopped looking new after about six months unless you tried to bleach them or wash them with rocks or something (all things people at my school did).
NB I'm male and I was a beanpole then. I didn't have the hip problem that women would have.
posted by fedward at 9:11 PM on December 14, 2021
It is SPECTACULARLY hard to find a plus-sized belt that is designed for functionality (as opposed to fashion) and made of materials that:
- will hold up to more than 3-4 wearings without peeling, splitting or breaking
- will not poke holes in, snag, or otherwise damage your top (all my t-shirts have tiny holes at my waist that look like my belly button has teeth)
- aren't tiny 1/2" purse straps or giant 3" cinching belts
- aren't braided (the default for belts of men/women over a certain waist size, so they don't have to pick a size)
Any decent tack store is going to have a rack of practical full grain leather belts in the 1-2" width range and lengths from "teenager experiencing growth spurt" to "are these for the cowboy or the cow". Some are going to be tooled but they'll have plain ones too in assorted shades of brown and black. The same place can also set you up with a matching buckle of the pin or prong persuasion though selection might be limited if you don't want something large enough to double as a dinner plate.
I realize the availability of tack stores is probably inversely proportional to population density at best but horse popularity with rich people means there is usually at least one around somewhere even in built up areas. EG: here's a place in Manhattan.
posted by Mitheral at 1:20 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
- will hold up to more than 3-4 wearings without peeling, splitting or breaking
- will not poke holes in, snag, or otherwise damage your top (all my t-shirts have tiny holes at my waist that look like my belly button has teeth)
- aren't tiny 1/2" purse straps or giant 3" cinching belts
- aren't braided (the default for belts of men/women over a certain waist size, so they don't have to pick a size)
Any decent tack store is going to have a rack of practical full grain leather belts in the 1-2" width range and lengths from "teenager experiencing growth spurt" to "are these for the cowboy or the cow". Some are going to be tooled but they'll have plain ones too in assorted shades of brown and black. The same place can also set you up with a matching buckle of the pin or prong persuasion though selection might be limited if you don't want something large enough to double as a dinner plate.
I realize the availability of tack stores is probably inversely proportional to population density at best but horse popularity with rich people means there is usually at least one around somewhere even in built up areas. EG: here's a place in Manhattan.
posted by Mitheral at 1:20 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've not bought jeans anywhere but thrift stores in ages. I wear leggings to shop, and just stand there in the aisle and pull them on til I find one that works (avoiding 'closed fitting room' issues). By knowing how much space to allow for fitting them over the leggings, I've gotten pretty good at it.
One bonus is that these jeans are already "broken in" and I'm saved that timeframe. Also, if I end up hating them over time, or weight changes affect the fit, I'm only out $4 - $6 tops, and back to the thrift store they go.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:27 AM on December 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
One bonus is that these jeans are already "broken in" and I'm saved that timeframe. Also, if I end up hating them over time, or weight changes affect the fit, I'm only out $4 - $6 tops, and back to the thrift store they go.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:27 AM on December 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've only ever heard of "breaking in" for two items of clothing: Jeans, and leather cowboy boots. Which makes me think that these are both items of clothing for people a) who have rock-hard, muscular bodies, b) who are used to putting up with a great deal of discomfort for an extended period of time, and c) who hardly ever change their clothes.
I don't fit into any of those categories, which might be part of why I've never considered jeans as clothing for me.
posted by clawsoon at 4:28 AM on December 15, 2021
I don't fit into any of those categories, which might be part of why I've never considered jeans as clothing for me.
posted by clawsoon at 4:28 AM on December 15, 2021
I did not know jeans were so complicated to alter. I came into this convo thinking "get a belt, lol" and I'm leaving the thread thinking we need to put the fashion industry in a mulcher and hope something new grows from the scraps.
On /r/malefashionadvice they had a saying for making clothes look good - "rule one - be attractive. Rule two - don't be unattractive." This was often said tongue-in-cheek, as a way of pointing out that how people feel about an outfit can't be disconnected from how they feel about themselves.
I quit reading MFA when all the rules I learned to follow got thrown out the window, and everything started to fit different. It all felt fake. Obviously, fashion is... Fashion.
I just want to have the same fashion that is sold to the clothes horse skinny folk. Why can't we have the same services? Why can't they just make clothes that fits, damn it!? And doesn't wear out.
I think maybe the problem is the fashion itself. Bottoms that need to hold themselves up, allow for fluid movement, and end at the hips. Maybe these three things are just incompatible? Maybe we need higher waists and looser fronts. Maybe we need longer, more flowy shirts. Something with simpler construction?
posted by rebent at 5:25 AM on December 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
On /r/malefashionadvice they had a saying for making clothes look good - "rule one - be attractive. Rule two - don't be unattractive." This was often said tongue-in-cheek, as a way of pointing out that how people feel about an outfit can't be disconnected from how they feel about themselves.
I quit reading MFA when all the rules I learned to follow got thrown out the window, and everything started to fit different. It all felt fake. Obviously, fashion is... Fashion.
I just want to have the same fashion that is sold to the clothes horse skinny folk. Why can't we have the same services? Why can't they just make clothes that fits, damn it!? And doesn't wear out.
I think maybe the problem is the fashion itself. Bottoms that need to hold themselves up, allow for fluid movement, and end at the hips. Maybe these three things are just incompatible? Maybe we need higher waists and looser fronts. Maybe we need longer, more flowy shirts. Something with simpler construction?
posted by rebent at 5:25 AM on December 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
With the fickleness of fashion and retailers desire for profit and shoppers desire for a 'bargain', the quality of clothing and its associated burden on the environment is a real concern. 90+% of all clothing, even 'expensive' high end brands are appallingly made of the cheapest and shoddiest material. The ridiculousness of a 'size' being slightly larger than specified plus the inclusion of spandex in jean material just emphasizes this even more.
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 5:25 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 5:25 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
My wife has struggled endlessly with pants. She found that going (virtually) to places where people are similarly shaped for pants and shoes has been helpful. Geiger used to make comfy jeans that were high waisted and not pinchy. She likes Raleigh denim handmades. You are going to spend a lot but at least they are handmade with decent wages, possibly union made?
Jeans have been my enemy. (except for that burgundy pair of toughskins when I was like eight, loved those.)
I have never found jeans that fit me nicely, and they seem to retain stains and hold moisture forever. They chafe if I ride a bike. It has been about 25 years since I bought a pair - I looked at the prices and how much water etc they take to make and I can’t even since I know they will sit in a drawer.
My preferred type of climate killing clothes is to buy the outdoorsy stuff that is made from oil or maybe worse. But I demand they last as long as the fossils from whence they came. I buy good hiking gear on sale and my daily drivers are many pairs of Bluffworks chinos (on sale) and they are reasonably tough and comfy. I can day hike in them or wear them to meetings. My first pair are many years old and they still work. I also find some Duluth stuff is ok but much more variable than they used to be.
Anyway - hugs to all who wrestle with clothes, I just gave up but I have the luxury of doing so.
posted by drowsy at 5:56 AM on December 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Jeans have been my enemy. (except for that burgundy pair of toughskins when I was like eight, loved those.)
I have never found jeans that fit me nicely, and they seem to retain stains and hold moisture forever. They chafe if I ride a bike. It has been about 25 years since I bought a pair - I looked at the prices and how much water etc they take to make and I can’t even since I know they will sit in a drawer.
My preferred type of climate killing clothes is to buy the outdoorsy stuff that is made from oil or maybe worse. But I demand they last as long as the fossils from whence they came. I buy good hiking gear on sale and my daily drivers are many pairs of Bluffworks chinos (on sale) and they are reasonably tough and comfy. I can day hike in them or wear them to meetings. My first pair are many years old and they still work. I also find some Duluth stuff is ok but much more variable than they used to be.
Anyway - hugs to all who wrestle with clothes, I just gave up but I have the luxury of doing so.
posted by drowsy at 5:56 AM on December 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
It is SPECTACULARLY hard to find a plus-sized belt that is designed for functionality (as opposed to fashion) and made of materials that:
I can kind of understand why jeans are so difficult, since they have a complex construction and bodies vary so much. (But, that should mean that more choices are offered versus the simplistic single-number sizing now.)
However, a belt is such a simple implement -- just a long strap of material plus a buckle of some kind. The only reason for the plus-size choices to be so bad is a collective "screw you, we don't care" by the industry.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:52 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I can kind of understand why jeans are so difficult, since they have a complex construction and bodies vary so much. (But, that should mean that more choices are offered versus the simplistic single-number sizing now.)
However, a belt is such a simple implement -- just a long strap of material plus a buckle of some kind. The only reason for the plus-size choices to be so bad is a collective "screw you, we don't care" by the industry.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:52 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Running late to pick up my kid, I reached for my new Lee jeans and put them on. They fit better than I remembered. When my wife got home, she said I looked fantastic in my new jeans. I said thanks, but my cell phone keeps slipping out of my front pocket. Her brow furrowed and she walked up to me and checked the pockets. "That's because these are women's jeans. These are my jeans. You're wearing my jeans."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:22 AM on December 15, 2021 [37 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:22 AM on December 15, 2021 [37 favorites]
I am reading this thread incredulous and fascinated: what is going on here??
First of all, some background. I don't have standard/average proportions. I'm 4'11" in height and my weight fluctuates between 110 lbs (middle of the normal weight range for my height) and 135 lbs (somewhat overweight). I'm always a little pudgy even at my skinniest, my belly expands and recedes often, and it's quite hard to find clothes that fit my body. Both my current pairs of jeans were bought used from ThredUp, costing ~$15 each. One of them is Gap, the other is Anne Klein - but brands are totally irrelevant in my experience, my favorite pair which I have to lose 10 lbs to fit into again is another used pair from ThredUp, but its brand is Walmart's No Boundaries.
Having set that up, here's the deal: I have never once noticed that these jeans don't fit me in the morning/afternoon/evening/second day? What?? What does that even mean?? What happens to these jeans that y'all are wearing? Do they start sliding down as the day goes on? I mean that happens sometimes on the second/third day for jeans that have a lot of spandex but usually it snaps right back after a wash. Does it really happen over the course of the same day?
I admit that I am unusually unaware of my own body, and I'm generally not paying attention to how my clothes look on me in a given moment. But is it really normal for people to keep tabs on whether the knees (what.) of their jeans are sagging (what.)? I almost want to accuse you all of playing an elaborate prank here. It's like you're all getting together to talk about how eating dairy affects the flexibility of your earlobes. Is everyone except me paying THIS MUCH attention to the fit of their clothes? Christ, people must think I'm a total slob! I'm in a mild panic rn.
posted by MiraK at 9:34 AM on December 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
First of all, some background. I don't have standard/average proportions. I'm 4'11" in height and my weight fluctuates between 110 lbs (middle of the normal weight range for my height) and 135 lbs (somewhat overweight). I'm always a little pudgy even at my skinniest, my belly expands and recedes often, and it's quite hard to find clothes that fit my body. Both my current pairs of jeans were bought used from ThredUp, costing ~$15 each. One of them is Gap, the other is Anne Klein - but brands are totally irrelevant in my experience, my favorite pair which I have to lose 10 lbs to fit into again is another used pair from ThredUp, but its brand is Walmart's No Boundaries.
Having set that up, here's the deal: I have never once noticed that these jeans don't fit me in the morning/afternoon/evening/second day? What?? What does that even mean?? What happens to these jeans that y'all are wearing? Do they start sliding down as the day goes on? I mean that happens sometimes on the second/third day for jeans that have a lot of spandex but usually it snaps right back after a wash. Does it really happen over the course of the same day?
I admit that I am unusually unaware of my own body, and I'm generally not paying attention to how my clothes look on me in a given moment. But is it really normal for people to keep tabs on whether the knees (what.) of their jeans are sagging (what.)? I almost want to accuse you all of playing an elaborate prank here. It's like you're all getting together to talk about how eating dairy affects the flexibility of your earlobes. Is everyone except me paying THIS MUCH attention to the fit of their clothes? Christ, people must think I'm a total slob! I'm in a mild panic rn.
posted by MiraK at 9:34 AM on December 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
You might be benefiting from the square-cube law, MiraK - the bigger we get the more difficult it is for a garment in a given fabric to hold up its own weight.
posted by clew at 10:15 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 10:15 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
there's this neat masc trick I use called wearing a belt.
The fun part about this masc trick is that it works very poorly for many men because male weight distribution tends to end up in the belly and the belly rides above the belt/waist of jeans and pushes the jeans down, belt or not, unless you go super tight. Women have the issue of larger hips and a smaller waist. Most men have the reverse. Then you get a waist to girth discrepancy that actually results in men causing themselves digestive issues and going to the doctor for abdominal pain. For fat men the belt is a very thin leather version of what corsets were...a way to strangle an abdomen.
There is a reason Boss Hogg wore suspenders.
posted by srboisvert at 10:23 AM on December 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
The fun part about this masc trick is that it works very poorly for many men because male weight distribution tends to end up in the belly and the belly rides above the belt/waist of jeans and pushes the jeans down, belt or not, unless you go super tight. Women have the issue of larger hips and a smaller waist. Most men have the reverse. Then you get a waist to girth discrepancy that actually results in men causing themselves digestive issues and going to the doctor for abdominal pain. For fat men the belt is a very thin leather version of what corsets were...a way to strangle an abdomen.
There is a reason Boss Hogg wore suspenders.
posted by srboisvert at 10:23 AM on December 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
AIUI, the original Levi's 501s were truly shrink-to-fit. Made of 'raw denim', meaning cotton untreated after the dyeing process, one got a good fit by.
Buy 1 inch larger in waist, 2 inches longer in leg. Put on jeans. Sit in a bathtub full of water for 30 mins. Exit tub, and wear wet jeans until they dry. This made the cotton fibers loosen, then shrink and set, to conform to your actual...um, self.
How well did this work in practice?
I wore 501 for about 20 years after they first came out and never once did this. All I ever did was buy slightly loose with the understanding that they would shrink during the first couple of washes. I miss the days of real jeans that broke in like baseball gloves but I am also not willing to pay the inflation adjusted dollars that they would cost now (jeans were actually pretty expensive back then) nor am I willing to spend the near infinite hours it would take to figure out which style of Levi's those would even be in their bloated selection now.
posted by srboisvert at 10:31 AM on December 15, 2021
Buy 1 inch larger in waist, 2 inches longer in leg. Put on jeans. Sit in a bathtub full of water for 30 mins. Exit tub, and wear wet jeans until they dry. This made the cotton fibers loosen, then shrink and set, to conform to your actual...um, self.
How well did this work in practice?
I wore 501 for about 20 years after they first came out and never once did this. All I ever did was buy slightly loose with the understanding that they would shrink during the first couple of washes. I miss the days of real jeans that broke in like baseball gloves but I am also not willing to pay the inflation adjusted dollars that they would cost now (jeans were actually pretty expensive back then) nor am I willing to spend the near infinite hours it would take to figure out which style of Levi's those would even be in their bloated selection now.
posted by srboisvert at 10:31 AM on December 15, 2021
If you're overweight and have the aforementioned belly to butt ratio issue that causes your pants to fall down, I highly recommend Lee's Extreme Motion Jeans. They're promoted as providing extra flex for super active people, but I like them because I can buy a size smaller in the waist than I might need in other brands and the flexible fibers will help the waist expand while the butt/crotch/legs stay as they are. This allows me to buy jeans that fit all the way through instead of choosing between cutting off my midsection like strings between sausages or having everything from my crotch down be baggy.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:36 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:36 AM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Is everyone except me paying THIS MUCH attention to the fit of their clothes? Christ, people must think I'm a total slob! I'm in a mild panic rn.
It's not so much that I'm paying that much attention to the fit of my clothes, it's that some of my jeans start getting so noticeably loose during the day that it feels like they're going to fall down around my ankles as I walk through the grocery store.
posted by cooker girl at 12:43 PM on December 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
It's not so much that I'm paying that much attention to the fit of my clothes, it's that some of my jeans start getting so noticeably loose during the day that it feels like they're going to fall down around my ankles as I walk through the grocery store.
posted by cooker girl at 12:43 PM on December 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
"are these for the cowboy or the cow".
Gosh, that's hilarious.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 12:57 PM on December 15, 2021
Gosh, that's hilarious.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 12:57 PM on December 15, 2021
What does that even mean?? What happens to these jeans that y'all are wearing? Do they start sliding down as the day goes on?
I mean...yeah? I am not so far off your own stats myself (5'2" if I stand up straight, anywhere from 115-130 on a given day why are bodies so fucking like this all the time) and constantly changing in all of its dimensions throughout the day, but I will typically find myself hitching up the jeans after only a few hours of post-wash wear.
My boyfriend maintains this means the pants are simply too large on me, which may be correct, BUT smaller sizes are very distinctly too actually small. When they start making pants in half-sizes,* someone hook me up.
*Or alternately, when they start coming up with ways for us to abandon these profoundly unpleasant meatsacks
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:31 PM on December 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
I mean...yeah? I am not so far off your own stats myself (5'2" if I stand up straight, anywhere from 115-130 on a given day why are bodies so fucking like this all the time) and constantly changing in all of its dimensions throughout the day, but I will typically find myself hitching up the jeans after only a few hours of post-wash wear.
My boyfriend maintains this means the pants are simply too large on me, which may be correct, BUT smaller sizes are very distinctly too actually small. When they start making pants in half-sizes,* someone hook me up.
*Or alternately, when they start coming up with ways for us to abandon these profoundly unpleasant meatsacks
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:31 PM on December 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
I know I don't understand much about clothes, but what other kinds of jeans are there?
When I was pregnant I bought "maternity jeans" and they were a revelation. For anyone unfamiliar: they're like normal jeans until you get a bit below the waistband and then instead of button/zipper there's this enormous band of stretchy fabric that goes up way over your belly.
These jeans were shockingly comfortable - all the places jeans would usually bind or tug were gone, replaced with this wonderful cozy softness. They stayed up, and I could keep wearing them as I gained weight. You can't tuck in shirts - that is a (not insignificant) downside - but in every other way maternity jeans are really kind of perfect.
I wondered then, and I do still: why oh why doesn't anyone sell these as jeans-for-all? I mean, ok, yes, I do know why - the body-image/marketing tangle that keeps us wearing uncomfortable jeans is central to this article/post after all. But still - offering the "maternity jeans" design beyond the pregnant people market seems like a most obviously good idea. Fury at the companies that refuse to figure this out.
(Also, in anyone knows of companies that are actually doing this, please share!)
posted by marlys at 1:39 PM on December 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
When I was pregnant I bought "maternity jeans" and they were a revelation. For anyone unfamiliar: they're like normal jeans until you get a bit below the waistband and then instead of button/zipper there's this enormous band of stretchy fabric that goes up way over your belly.
These jeans were shockingly comfortable - all the places jeans would usually bind or tug were gone, replaced with this wonderful cozy softness. They stayed up, and I could keep wearing them as I gained weight. You can't tuck in shirts - that is a (not insignificant) downside - but in every other way maternity jeans are really kind of perfect.
I wondered then, and I do still: why oh why doesn't anyone sell these as jeans-for-all? I mean, ok, yes, I do know why - the body-image/marketing tangle that keeps us wearing uncomfortable jeans is central to this article/post after all. But still - offering the "maternity jeans" design beyond the pregnant people market seems like a most obviously good idea. Fury at the companies that refuse to figure this out.
(Also, in anyone knows of companies that are actually doing this, please share!)
posted by marlys at 1:39 PM on December 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
I admit that I am unusually unaware of my own body, and I'm generally not paying attention to how my clothes look on me in a given moment. But is it really normal for people to keep tabs on whether the knees (what.) of their jeans are sagging (what.)? I almost want to accuse you all of playing an elaborate prank here. It's like you're all getting together to talk about how eating dairy affects the flexibility of your earlobes. Is everyone except me paying THIS MUCH attention to the fit of their clothes?
I mean, my impression as a cis male is, well, kinda yeah - women are generally heavily socialized to pay this much attention to their outfits. Which is not to say that you're Failing Femininity or whatever, and TBH I doubt people think you're a slob - because a large part of that socialization is SELF-policing to a much higher standard than anyone else is going to. So, like, the writer is kinda all worked up about fit details that no-one else will notice, but SHE'S supposed to notice them constantly in order to ensure that her appearance is Satisfactory To The Culture At Large.
Like, I had the same kind of reaction that you did (Knees sagging? what?) and then I went, "OOOOhhhhh right, I'm a guy, nobody in my life has ever suggested that I should begin to care about that level of detail in my appearance."
posted by soundguy99 at 3:21 PM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I mean, my impression as a cis male is, well, kinda yeah - women are generally heavily socialized to pay this much attention to their outfits. Which is not to say that you're Failing Femininity or whatever, and TBH I doubt people think you're a slob - because a large part of that socialization is SELF-policing to a much higher standard than anyone else is going to. So, like, the writer is kinda all worked up about fit details that no-one else will notice, but SHE'S supposed to notice them constantly in order to ensure that her appearance is Satisfactory To The Culture At Large.
Like, I had the same kind of reaction that you did (Knees sagging? what?) and then I went, "OOOOhhhhh right, I'm a guy, nobody in my life has ever suggested that I should begin to care about that level of detail in my appearance."
posted by soundguy99 at 3:21 PM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
the writer is kinda all worked up about fit details that no-one else will notice
You may not notice, but other people who are socialized to pay attention to these things absolutely will - maybe only glancingly, probably with empathy (damn those saggy knee jeans!), but they will notice. This is a shared dialogue, even if it's not one that you're tuned into.
posted by marlys at 4:10 PM on December 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
You may not notice, but other people who are socialized to pay attention to these things absolutely will - maybe only glancingly, probably with empathy (damn those saggy knee jeans!), but they will notice. This is a shared dialogue, even if it's not one that you're tuned into.
posted by marlys at 4:10 PM on December 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
(quick add: I'm not saying that clothing self-policing isn't a crazy mind-fuck - it absolutely is - but it's a shared mind-fuck, engaged by many (I speak from my own experience here).)
posted by marlys at 4:13 PM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by marlys at 4:13 PM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Try being plus sized and short waisted! The rise on most plus size jeans right now starts at 17" and mine is 11.5". The only non-skinny jeans I've found that don't come up to my bra are certain Levis.
posted by rednikki at 4:51 PM on December 15, 2021
posted by rednikki at 4:51 PM on December 15, 2021
Is everyone except me paying THIS MUCH attention to the fit of their clothes?
lol no
this is a bitterly serious problem for lots of teens and a much smaller fraction of adults, and an occasion for endless rounds of funtime performance complaining for everyone else. has been for the last twenty years. you can tell by the occasional forgetful complaints about low-rise jeans, left over from twenty years ago. none of this stands up past the first few rounds of You Don't Have To Wear Jeans If You Don't Like Them and Women Aren't Obligated By Law To Buy Our Belts From The Women's Section, You Know. people do know these things and they do not care. people know that mass-produced off-the-rack factory fashion has to be bought to fit the largest part of them and either taken in elsewhere or left loose elsewhere, which is fine and not important. they know that fit models' proportions are different for every brand and that having them be different from brand to brand is a positive, not a negative. complaining about clothes is just a comfortable bonding exercise. serves the social purpose of diet talk for people who like to look down on diet talkers.
nothing wrong with it, except for the very earnest men who reliably show up to ponderously take it all very seriously and wonder how we can possibly live with our grotesquely impractical feminine proportions. you know, allies.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:01 PM on December 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
lol no
this is a bitterly serious problem for lots of teens and a much smaller fraction of adults, and an occasion for endless rounds of funtime performance complaining for everyone else. has been for the last twenty years. you can tell by the occasional forgetful complaints about low-rise jeans, left over from twenty years ago. none of this stands up past the first few rounds of You Don't Have To Wear Jeans If You Don't Like Them and Women Aren't Obligated By Law To Buy Our Belts From The Women's Section, You Know. people do know these things and they do not care. people know that mass-produced off-the-rack factory fashion has to be bought to fit the largest part of them and either taken in elsewhere or left loose elsewhere, which is fine and not important. they know that fit models' proportions are different for every brand and that having them be different from brand to brand is a positive, not a negative. complaining about clothes is just a comfortable bonding exercise. serves the social purpose of diet talk for people who like to look down on diet talkers.
nothing wrong with it, except for the very earnest men who reliably show up to ponderously take it all very seriously and wonder how we can possibly live with our grotesquely impractical feminine proportions. you know, allies.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:01 PM on December 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
Clothing is one area where retail is going to be missed. Instead of going to the mall/downtown and quickly trying on a bunch of clothes from different retailers, we're now paying to ship these exact same clothes halfway around the country to discover in five seconds that they don't fit.
Ha ha I haven't done that in decades, because I am outside standard clothings sizes (fat, large chested, giant feet) and the mall had nothing for me back in the day either. It seems silly to try stuff on at home but at least the online store tells you if they have anything near your size.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 5:28 PM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ha ha I haven't done that in decades, because I am outside standard clothings sizes (fat, large chested, giant feet) and the mall had nothing for me back in the day either. It seems silly to try stuff on at home but at least the online store tells you if they have anything near your size.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 5:28 PM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've actually been in a rage about pants for about 2 years now. I gained a bunch of weight before and then during the pandemic, and so I needed to buy new pants - soft pants for working from home and jeans to wear out of the house because they do feel like armor for me. And I have found it nearly impossible to buy *any* pants because everything is so short now! Freakin' short pants every where! I don't want skinny jeans or leggings because hate the feeling of tight fabric ion my calves, and I'm tallish and can wear 32-33" inseam so "ankle" pants are like, way too short on me and finding any pants that I wouldn't die inside slowly to don, with an inseam longer than 27" is impossible!
I bought a pair of jeans and a pair of cargo pants from Duluth Trading and as leslies said, they are ver well made but the jeans fit in the waist but look like jodphurs in the thighs, and can slide ride off my body without unbuttoning by the end of the day, and the cargo pants are too short.
I honestly don't know how to get some pants I can leave the house in.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 5:47 PM on December 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
I bought a pair of jeans and a pair of cargo pants from Duluth Trading and as leslies said, they are ver well made but the jeans fit in the waist but look like jodphurs in the thighs, and can slide ride off my body without unbuttoning by the end of the day, and the cargo pants are too short.
I honestly don't know how to get some pants I can leave the house in.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 5:47 PM on December 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
(For all my complaints about the hitching up I will live and die by the particular jeans I referenced above--they are, horror, Abercrombies--because they are blessedly short, thus allowing me to wear my millennial ballet flats and pretend I am some kind of Audrey Hepburn/Jessica Rabbit mashup)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:03 PM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:03 PM on December 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Does it really happen over the course of the same day?
I admit that I am unusually unaware of my own body, and I'm generally not paying attention to how my clothes look on me in a given moment. But is it really normal for people to keep tabs on whether the knees (what.) of their jeans are sagging (what.)?
I’m either a size 8 or a 10 US, so kinda bog standard, and I used to carry more weight in my butt and legs but after 3 babies, the last at 40, I have a victory pouch on my belly. I have had a pair of jeans that fit fine in the morning catch a belt loop on a railing and *come down* (I realize I am exceptionally talented at wardrobe failures.)
One of the weird benefits of my job is that at work I either wear a martial arts uniform or a polo + black athletic but not sweat pants.
I do notice sagging knees on myself, and sometimes spy them on others but it’s kind of like pills on sweaters or jersey, it just reads like the clothes are being used for their intended purpose. I’m kind of hoping wearing clothing that looks worn becomes a trend so we can all keep more out of landfill/buy used like you described.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:09 AM on December 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I admit that I am unusually unaware of my own body, and I'm generally not paying attention to how my clothes look on me in a given moment. But is it really normal for people to keep tabs on whether the knees (what.) of their jeans are sagging (what.)?
I’m either a size 8 or a 10 US, so kinda bog standard, and I used to carry more weight in my butt and legs but after 3 babies, the last at 40, I have a victory pouch on my belly. I have had a pair of jeans that fit fine in the morning catch a belt loop on a railing and *come down* (I realize I am exceptionally talented at wardrobe failures.)
One of the weird benefits of my job is that at work I either wear a martial arts uniform or a polo + black athletic but not sweat pants.
I do notice sagging knees on myself, and sometimes spy them on others but it’s kind of like pills on sweaters or jersey, it just reads like the clothes are being used for their intended purpose. I’m kind of hoping wearing clothing that looks worn becomes a trend so we can all keep more out of landfill/buy used like you described.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:09 AM on December 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
And I have found it nearly impossible to buy *any* pants because everything is so short now!
*cackles in short person*
No wonder I've had fabulous luck in pants these past couple of years!
posted by MiraK at 6:11 AM on December 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
*cackles in short person*
No wonder I've had fabulous luck in pants these past couple of years!
posted by MiraK at 6:11 AM on December 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
About twenty pounds ago (some Before Covid, some pandemic weight), I lived in a couple of pairs of J.Jill jeans. They were stupidly expensive but incredibly comfortable. They were soft and durable and I've kept them in case I lose weight.
Since then, I've noticed that a handful of retailers have expanded their size offerings and call themselves size inclusive, but they don't seem to include short people, especially short people over size 12. Universal Standard offers about fifteen items in petite (including shirts and dresses). Many retailers don't bother with petites at all. If they do, I have the same fit issues as everyone else. And yes, please let the ankle-length trend die (sorry, MiraK!).
posted by swerve at 8:56 AM on December 16, 2021
Since then, I've noticed that a handful of retailers have expanded their size offerings and call themselves size inclusive, but they don't seem to include short people, especially short people over size 12. Universal Standard offers about fifteen items in petite (including shirts and dresses). Many retailers don't bother with petites at all. If they do, I have the same fit issues as everyone else. And yes, please let the ankle-length trend die (sorry, MiraK!).
posted by swerve at 8:56 AM on December 16, 2021
Dear Humans,
The average American is 5'9'' if male, 5'4'' if female, with a BMI of 29.
If you're more than 10% away from these averages, drop dead.
Yours sincerely,
The Clothing Industry
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:24 AM on December 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
The average American is 5'9'' if male, 5'4'' if female, with a BMI of 29.
If you're more than 10% away from these averages, drop dead.
Yours sincerely,
The Clothing Industry
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:24 AM on December 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh jeez, TheophileEscargot, if only. It's more like, the average American is 5'9" if male, 5'4" if female, with a BMI of 29. But we only want to clothe people who we want to look at, so we make clothes for men who are 6' 0" and women who are 5'8", with a BMI of 19. So if you happen to be average or heavier or shorter or taller, drop dead.
posted by Daily Alice at 9:47 AM on December 16, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Daily Alice at 9:47 AM on December 16, 2021 [12 favorites]
Clothing is one area where retail is going to be missed. Instead of going to the mall/downtown and quickly trying on a bunch of clothes from different retailers, we're now paying to ship these exact same clothes halfway around the country to discover in five seconds that they don't fit.
Amazon has noticed this, no doubt due to their ability to analyze almost all consumer behavior these days. That's why they have Amazon Prime Wardrobe where you can order a multitude of items all at once and it shipped to you in one box and you can return whatever you don't like. It is how I occasionally try out new running shoes. I'll order 5-7 pairs and just take the box down to my building's gym and spend 5 minutes on the treadmill in each pair. Then send back all the ones I didn't like. It's not as instant as a in-store shopping but the upside is that you can try things out for longer and in closer to real use conditions. You can try on pants and actually see how they stretch out or hold shape over time doing real things like sitting down for a while.
posted by srboisvert at 5:08 AM on December 23, 2021
Amazon has noticed this, no doubt due to their ability to analyze almost all consumer behavior these days. That's why they have Amazon Prime Wardrobe where you can order a multitude of items all at once and it shipped to you in one box and you can return whatever you don't like. It is how I occasionally try out new running shoes. I'll order 5-7 pairs and just take the box down to my building's gym and spend 5 minutes on the treadmill in each pair. Then send back all the ones I didn't like. It's not as instant as a in-store shopping but the upside is that you can try things out for longer and in closer to real use conditions. You can try on pants and actually see how they stretch out or hold shape over time doing real things like sitting down for a while.
posted by srboisvert at 5:08 AM on December 23, 2021
Do we, does the author of this piece, know that it's a solvable problem? If she had her current tastes and body but unlimited money, could she get jeans that made her happy?
I'm wondering because I've been rereading/watching a bunch of pants-sewing links. Fitting pants to any standard is quite difficult. It's not just that we have wildly varying fluff, it's that it gooshes around a lot when we sit or bend. Fashion makes this all worse by ruling out fits that would comfortably stay on.
Also, I hope she's keeping a record of fiber content and actual waist and hip measurements with the brand & size records.
posted by clew at 6:34 PM on December 23, 2021
I'm wondering because I've been rereading/watching a bunch of pants-sewing links. Fitting pants to any standard is quite difficult. It's not just that we have wildly varying fluff, it's that it gooshes around a lot when we sit or bend. Fashion makes this all worse by ruling out fits that would comfortably stay on.
Also, I hope she's keeping a record of fiber content and actual waist and hip measurements with the brand & size records.
posted by clew at 6:34 PM on December 23, 2021
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