300 Hundred e-Bikes or one Tesla Model 3
January 22, 2022 12:10 PM Subscribe
The Future of E-Bikes "The best feeling on a bike is cruising down a hill, barely pedaling, and taking in the surroundings. E-bikes are like that all the time. "How do you know if someone has an e-bike? They'll tell you!" goes the joke."
"Hybrid-electric cars are an engineering abomination. They have both gas and electric powertrains, ensuring they are more expensive and complicated than their competitors. Most e-bikes are the same, carrying both a mechanical and an electric powertrain.
What can we do to get a people's e-bike that has 30 miles of range, requires no maintenance, travels 15-20 mph, and retails around $500?
If we have an electric drive, there is no need for a mechanical one. A German manufacturer named Schaeffler recently released its "Free Drive". Pedaling turns a motor instead of a chain and powers the bike or charges the batteries (electric motors run in reverse generate electricity). The system is about 5% less efficient than a chain drive, but e-bikes use battery power, so it's no sweat for the rider. The motors powering the bike are simple in-wheel hub motors that are cheap and efficient."
"Hybrid-electric cars are an engineering abomination. They have both gas and electric powertrains, ensuring they are more expensive and complicated than their competitors. Most e-bikes are the same, carrying both a mechanical and an electric powertrain.
What can we do to get a people's e-bike that has 30 miles of range, requires no maintenance, travels 15-20 mph, and retails around $500?
If we have an electric drive, there is no need for a mechanical one. A German manufacturer named Schaeffler recently released its "Free Drive". Pedaling turns a motor instead of a chain and powers the bike or charges the batteries (electric motors run in reverse generate electricity). The system is about 5% less efficient than a chain drive, but e-bikes use battery power, so it's no sweat for the rider. The motors powering the bike are simple in-wheel hub motors that are cheap and efficient."
That can’t possibly be correct, that pedaling a generator to make electricity to power a motor is only 5% less efficient than pedaling a wheel connected via a chain, right?
posted by Eddie Mars at 12:40 PM on January 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Eddie Mars at 12:40 PM on January 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
We live in an area with a really nice set of running/walking trails that stretch nearly from the city all the way to the outer suburbs. My neighbor is a marathoner that runs on them daily and tells me that e-bikes are becoming so much of a problem on these trails that he's going back to running on paved streets to avoid getting clobbered by one.
We wouldn't let motorcycles on these trails, but the e-bikes are currently okay. The governing body has declared that e-bikes are allowed since the state vehicle code says they are not recognized as motorized vehicles, but may impose a speed limit someday soon. So they're literally doing nothing about it.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:44 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
We wouldn't let motorcycles on these trails, but the e-bikes are currently okay. The governing body has declared that e-bikes are allowed since the state vehicle code says they are not recognized as motorized vehicles, but may impose a speed limit someday soon. So they're literally doing nothing about it.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:44 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
That can’t possibly be correct, that pedaling a generator to make electricity to power a motor is only 5% less efficient than pedaling a wheel connected via a chain, right?
We're really good at making efficient electrical motors and generators. Round trip efficiencies of batteries is 95%. What's inefficient in the whole converting fuel to energy is that heat is a really bad intermediate with the Carnot Limit being 37%.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:56 PM on January 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
We're really good at making efficient electrical motors and generators. Round trip efficiencies of batteries is 95%. What's inefficient in the whole converting fuel to energy is that heat is a really bad intermediate with the Carnot Limit being 37%.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:56 PM on January 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
That ebike to motorcycle comparison video is something else. Average speed of 28.3 kph on a commute?? Top speed of 60kph?! Am I crazy to think those are insane speeds for a bicycle on an everyday ride? I used to bicycle commute and my average was closer to 15 to 20 kph. The only time i'd get up to 60 kph was when I was in my 20s and commuting down off the hills in Seattle. And that was incredibly dangerous at times, even to my 20 something self.
In a crowd of bicycle commuters 10 to 12 miles per hour is probably a good speed. I stopped riding regularly about 5 years ago... Are ebikes a menace?
posted by surlyben at 12:57 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
In a crowd of bicycle commuters 10 to 12 miles per hour is probably a good speed. I stopped riding regularly about 5 years ago... Are ebikes a menace?
posted by surlyben at 12:57 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Hybrid-electric cars are an engineering abomination.
I mean they are, but also will likely be my next car purchase, because our recharging infrastructure isn't quite there yet (even in CA) and my parents a 4 hour drive away. So, abomination, but also better than the pure gas thing I own now.
E-bikes are great and I genuinely think they could transform city transportation if we do it right. But there are some other things here that are just dumb (Loop anything) and it does sometimes rain.
posted by feckless at 12:59 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
I mean they are, but also will likely be my next car purchase, because our recharging infrastructure isn't quite there yet (even in CA) and my parents a 4 hour drive away. So, abomination, but also better than the pure gas thing I own now.
E-bikes are great and I genuinely think they could transform city transportation if we do it right. But there are some other things here that are just dumb (Loop anything) and it does sometimes rain.
posted by feckless at 12:59 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
There's just no way ebikes don't end up on the receiving end of vast, well-funded anti propaganda campaigns, is there?
posted by ominous_paws at 12:59 PM on January 22, 2022 [39 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 12:59 PM on January 22, 2022 [39 favorites]
That can’t possibly be correct, that pedaling a generator to make electricity to power a motor is only 5% less efficient than pedaling a wheel connected via a chain, right?
As an electronics engineer, that number sounds fairly plausible.
posted by ryanrs at 1:00 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
As an electronics engineer, that number sounds fairly plausible.
posted by ryanrs at 1:00 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ebikes are also limited to 15 mph in europe and 20mph in the USA.
posted by ominous_paws at 1:00 PM on January 22, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 1:00 PM on January 22, 2022 [17 favorites]
Average speed of 28.3 kph on a commute??
I regularly see e-bikes at speeds only an advanced-to-elite bicyclist could sustain driven by people who could never hope to sustain those speeds by foot power alone.
posted by slkinsey at 1:05 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
I regularly see e-bikes at speeds only an advanced-to-elite bicyclist could sustain driven by people who could never hope to sustain those speeds by foot power alone.
posted by slkinsey at 1:05 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
I got an e-bike three years ago to handle a new commute, and it has been ✨absolutely magical✨: it goes with me on commuter rail and covers the final miles to my destination. I got a Type 3 bike which is disallowed on certain trails due to its higher speed limit of 28mph.
120 years ago, early car and component designs were all evolving from cycling-based origins (self-link). As a result we got a century's worth of cities made-for-cars. Skipping through the video rongorongo posted above, the danger seems to come from excessively souped-up bikes and roads designed to make them invisible. Seems like the main changes we’d want to see to support e-bikes are narrower, lower-speed roads more conducive to bike and trike trips.
posted by migurski at 1:05 PM on January 22, 2022 [31 favorites]
120 years ago, early car and component designs were all evolving from cycling-based origins (self-link). As a result we got a century's worth of cities made-for-cars. Skipping through the video rongorongo posted above, the danger seems to come from excessively souped-up bikes and roads designed to make them invisible. Seems like the main changes we’d want to see to support e-bikes are narrower, lower-speed roads more conducive to bike and trike trips.
posted by migurski at 1:05 PM on January 22, 2022 [31 favorites]
I also absolutely love my e-bike. I had a serious leg/knee fracture (TPF) a couple of years ago which took me off my regular 20-mile roundtrip bike commute.
As always, there are assholes on e-bikes, there are assholes on regular bikes (see: Chicago lakefront path training pelotons), there are asshole pedestrians (walking 4 abreast on a trail), and there are asshole drivers (i.e., the rest of the world).
Perhaps we should work on the asshole part, and not worry as much about the mode of travel.
posted by hwyengr at 1:11 PM on January 22, 2022 [65 favorites]
As always, there are assholes on e-bikes, there are assholes on regular bikes (see: Chicago lakefront path training pelotons), there are asshole pedestrians (walking 4 abreast on a trail), and there are asshole drivers (i.e., the rest of the world).
Perhaps we should work on the asshole part, and not worry as much about the mode of travel.
posted by hwyengr at 1:11 PM on January 22, 2022 [65 favorites]
It seems like there are some double standards of safety between motorbike world and e-bike world.
My observations are the same. It's that riders seem to treat ebikes sort of like motorcycles with bicycle privileges when they're suited. I'm guessing the temptation to asshole increases when you don't have to pay the exertion penalty.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:15 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
My observations are the same. It's that riders seem to treat ebikes sort of like motorcycles with bicycle privileges when they're suited. I'm guessing the temptation to asshole increases when you don't have to pay the exertion penalty.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:15 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
In a bike positive culture, an e-bike is just another bike. Naturally it will have a place and bike culture people will adapt, probably.
In a place like the US, where there is a naturally adversarial relationship among pedestrians, bikers and motorists, and ebike is just another potential adversary to all three niches.
My son has a one-wheel, a sort of ebike skateboard. He just rides it for fun, and is very very conscious of where and when it will be safe. It also has no official place in the hierarchy, and the one-wheel community discusses this a lot. 'Don't be a dick' is always a good rule to start with.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:19 PM on January 22, 2022 [18 favorites]
In a place like the US, where there is a naturally adversarial relationship among pedestrians, bikers and motorists, and ebike is just another potential adversary to all three niches.
My son has a one-wheel, a sort of ebike skateboard. He just rides it for fun, and is very very conscious of where and when it will be safe. It also has no official place in the hierarchy, and the one-wheel community discusses this a lot. 'Don't be a dick' is always a good rule to start with.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:19 PM on January 22, 2022 [18 favorites]
I love personal electric vehicles of all kinds and think they (and non-powered bikes) should entirely replace private automobiles in 95% of all cases that a well integrated and free (dammit) transit system cannot handle. The problem as always isn't the majority of riders who don't act like dicks, it's the riders that do, creating danger for others and themselves, and giving the entire mode of transportation a black eye. Shockingly, however, the ubiquitous problem of "these people are why we can't have nice things," hasn't stopped asshole automobile drivers from killing thousands a people a day around the world. At least if assholes were using PEVs the death toll would be much much lower.
You have to change the systems to keep people safe; you can't change physics, and you can't change human nature. There will always be assholes.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:28 PM on January 22, 2022 [18 favorites]
You have to change the systems to keep people safe; you can't change physics, and you can't change human nature. There will always be assholes.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:28 PM on January 22, 2022 [18 favorites]
I rode various 10 speeds daily 1985 - 2000 an recreationally after that for the next 10 years.
Just got a pretty nifty e-bike and I can see it's great for getting uphill w/o killing myself but other than that it's more like ye olde mopeds from my youth than a bike, really -- with the energy of a casual 10mph cadence I can go ~20 mph
I live in a pretty flat place only (1 hill within 30 miles and that's man-made) so am going to get my old Bianchi tuned up and get back on that instead I think.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:31 PM on January 22, 2022
Just got a pretty nifty e-bike and I can see it's great for getting uphill w/o killing myself but other than that it's more like ye olde mopeds from my youth than a bike, really -- with the energy of a casual 10mph cadence I can go ~20 mph
I live in a pretty flat place only (1 hill within 30 miles and that's man-made) so am going to get my old Bianchi tuned up and get back on that instead I think.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:31 PM on January 22, 2022
As a daily commuter on an ebike to my job working in the bike industry, I definitely have some opinions on this topic.
This analogy does not really apply to ebikes: Hybrid-electric cars are an engineering abomination. Maybe so, but it doesn't necessarily true that ebikes with a mechanical drive train and an motor are somehow engineering Frankenbikes.
I think it's precisely those bikes with vestigial pedals, fat wheelbarrow wheels and heavy duty frames that lead precisely to the kind of overconfident, too fast riding that leads to accidents. I call these people 'eholes' because I see them all the time now on multi-use paths.
In other words, making a 'bike' more like an electric moped is the worst outcome.
Characteristics of an ehole: no helmet, heavy frame, going too fast, oblivious to people walking or riding, speeding on path, poor bike handling skills, vestigial pedals not being used, oblivious to the well being or disgruntlement of people they zoom by. These are the folks who end up causing a crash or getting hurt in one IMHO.
I don't really have an answer to this. I see people basically riding the equivalent of bike-sized e-Harley choppers down the multi use path now with no fucks given for how they are perceived by other users.
In my bike life, I have a set of well-developed reflexes and skills acquired through years of riding that's served me well. Adding an ebike assist to my biking gives me a bit more top end speed and I get to my destination without having to work too hard. But I follow the rules, I have a bike, not a moped and I ride it all the way with lights, tool kit, helmet and I'm pretty careful around pedestrians and traffic.
posted by diode at 1:33 PM on January 22, 2022 [21 favorites]
This analogy does not really apply to ebikes: Hybrid-electric cars are an engineering abomination. Maybe so, but it doesn't necessarily true that ebikes with a mechanical drive train and an motor are somehow engineering Frankenbikes.
I think it's precisely those bikes with vestigial pedals, fat wheelbarrow wheels and heavy duty frames that lead precisely to the kind of overconfident, too fast riding that leads to accidents. I call these people 'eholes' because I see them all the time now on multi-use paths.
In other words, making a 'bike' more like an electric moped is the worst outcome.
Characteristics of an ehole: no helmet, heavy frame, going too fast, oblivious to people walking or riding, speeding on path, poor bike handling skills, vestigial pedals not being used, oblivious to the well being or disgruntlement of people they zoom by. These are the folks who end up causing a crash or getting hurt in one IMHO.
I don't really have an answer to this. I see people basically riding the equivalent of bike-sized e-Harley choppers down the multi use path now with no fucks given for how they are perceived by other users.
In my bike life, I have a set of well-developed reflexes and skills acquired through years of riding that's served me well. Adding an ebike assist to my biking gives me a bit more top end speed and I get to my destination without having to work too hard. But I follow the rules, I have a bike, not a moped and I ride it all the way with lights, tool kit, helmet and I'm pretty careful around pedestrians and traffic.
posted by diode at 1:33 PM on January 22, 2022 [21 favorites]
Pedaling turns a motor instead of a chain and powers the bike or charges the batteries (electric motors run in reverse generate electricity). The system is about 5% less efficient than a chain drive, but e-bikes use battery power, so it's no sweat for the rider. The motors powering the bike are simple in-wheel hub motors that are cheap and efficient."
Presuming I'm parsing this correctly, even if true, powering an ebike with your own energy is not a very enticing proposition, even with only a 5% efficiency hit. Again, my observation is that the appeal of ebikes is that the rider gets to pedal with as little effort as possible, and isn't "generate electricity" mode. If that really were your goal, you'd probably ditch the ebike altogether for a regular bicycle.
There's no doubt, however, that scaled down electric powered vehicles are here to stay.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:33 PM on January 22, 2022
Presuming I'm parsing this correctly, even if true, powering an ebike with your own energy is not a very enticing proposition, even with only a 5% efficiency hit. Again, my observation is that the appeal of ebikes is that the rider gets to pedal with as little effort as possible, and isn't "generate electricity" mode. If that really were your goal, you'd probably ditch the ebike altogether for a regular bicycle.
There's no doubt, however, that scaled down electric powered vehicles are here to stay.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:33 PM on January 22, 2022
What about licensing? Here in San Francisco, there is a ton of ebikes all over, mostly for rent, and marketed to tourists. Rule #1 - it’s illegal to ride on the sidewalk. But a whole bunch of people do, because of the presumed safety of being off the road away from the cars. But they ignore pedestrians. There is nothing visible about the rules of the road where you rent an ebike. There needs to be a way to educate these riders to reduce the assholiness due to ignorance. In California, there is a pretty strict testing regime to get a license for motorcycles. But bicycles, nothing. What’s wrong about getting these motor vehicle riders licensed?
posted by njohnson23 at 1:39 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by njohnson23 at 1:39 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
In a bike positive culture, an e-bike is just another bike.
I think the issue is that they really should fall into a slightly different regulatory basket. Call them junior mopeds, maybe. The speeds are high enough that they don't fit in great in some situations (like a crowded rail-to-trail path with lots of mixed use), and on streets they are fast enough to need some enhanced safety or licensing requirements.
But the underlying problem is that we give 95% of the street space over to cars and expect bicyclists and pedestrians and wheelchair users and everyone else to share in the inadequate and unsafe scraps. Reduce the space for cars and there would be plenty of space for a fast e-bike lane, for example, plus room for everyone else. E-bikes need space, and that space should come from what is currently given to cars, not just what is already allocated to bicycles.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:43 PM on January 22, 2022 [24 favorites]
I think the issue is that they really should fall into a slightly different regulatory basket. Call them junior mopeds, maybe. The speeds are high enough that they don't fit in great in some situations (like a crowded rail-to-trail path with lots of mixed use), and on streets they are fast enough to need some enhanced safety or licensing requirements.
But the underlying problem is that we give 95% of the street space over to cars and expect bicyclists and pedestrians and wheelchair users and everyone else to share in the inadequate and unsafe scraps. Reduce the space for cars and there would be plenty of space for a fast e-bike lane, for example, plus room for everyone else. E-bikes need space, and that space should come from what is currently given to cars, not just what is already allocated to bicycles.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:43 PM on January 22, 2022 [24 favorites]
Where I live, ebikes all have speed governors (something like 25 mph I think?) and folks complain about how normal bikes and ebikes “go too fast” and “are a danger to pedestrians” and “why don’t you need a licence for that.”
Meanwhile, the same people aren’t asking for speed governors for cars which are the vehicles actually killing everyone directly and indirectly and boy it’s really really annoying.
Anyway, always exciting to see new developments in the electric bike space. Interested to see what niche this will end up filling!
posted by congen at 1:53 PM on January 22, 2022 [30 favorites]
Meanwhile, the same people aren’t asking for speed governors for cars which are the vehicles actually killing everyone directly and indirectly and boy it’s really really annoying.
Anyway, always exciting to see new developments in the electric bike space. Interested to see what niche this will end up filling!
posted by congen at 1:53 PM on January 22, 2022 [30 favorites]
Everyone IS aware there are multiple types of e-bikes, right? Mine is electric assist. I have to pedal, and the motor supplements power. There is no throttle, I don't just sit there and go for a ride like with a moped. I've never even gotten mine up to its max 28mph speed because that STILL takes a lot of effort in pedaling.
posted by hwyengr at 1:53 PM on January 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by hwyengr at 1:53 PM on January 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
Again, my observation is that the appeal of ebikes is that the rider gets to pedal with as little effort as possible, and isn't "generate electricity" mode. If that really were your goal, you'd probably ditch the ebike altogether for a regular bicycle.
The people I know who have them use them, basically, as range extenders. They still like peddling. But there might be stretches with a steep hill (common in my area) or bad headwind (ditto, especially if you avoid the hills) and a boost lets them get past with relatively little effort so they can do the rest of the ride too.
posted by mark k at 2:05 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
The people I know who have them use them, basically, as range extenders. They still like peddling. But there might be stretches with a steep hill (common in my area) or bad headwind (ditto, especially if you avoid the hills) and a boost lets them get past with relatively little effort so they can do the rest of the ride too.
posted by mark k at 2:05 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
folks complain about how normal bikes and ebikes "go too fast" and "are a danger to pedestrians"
When bicycles were new and had developed enough that they could be ridden fast, those who thought they rode too fast called the cyclists scorchers.
posted by Rash at 2:05 PM on January 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
When bicycles were new and had developed enough that they could be ridden fast, those who thought they rode too fast called the cyclists scorchers.
posted by Rash at 2:05 PM on January 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
1. E-bikes traveling on country roads at night must send up a rocket every mile, then wait ten minutes for the road to clear. The rider may then proceed, with caution, blowing his horn and shooting off Roman candles, as before.
2. If the rider of an e-bike sees a group of other-modal travelers approaching, he is to stop, pulling over to one side of the road, and cover his machine with a blanket or dust cover which is painted or colored to blend into the scenery, and thus render the machine less noticeable.
posted by Ickster at 2:08 PM on January 22, 2022 [34 favorites]
2. If the rider of an e-bike sees a group of other-modal travelers approaching, he is to stop, pulling over to one side of the road, and cover his machine with a blanket or dust cover which is painted or colored to blend into the scenery, and thus render the machine less noticeable.
posted by Ickster at 2:08 PM on January 22, 2022 [34 favorites]
Edit: that’s 25Kph not mph for the speed governors on ebikes here.
posted by congen at 2:08 PM on January 22, 2022
posted by congen at 2:08 PM on January 22, 2022
There needs to be some sort of alliance between the foot, pedal, e-bike, scooter, assisted device, golf cart, and maybe the kayak factions. Though the solidarity marches will have to be carefully planned to accommodate the various speeds and need for canals.
posted by credulous at 2:10 PM on January 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by credulous at 2:10 PM on January 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
Seems like the main changes we’d want to see to support e-bikes are narrower, lower-speed roads more conducive to bike and trike trips.
posted by migurski at 1:05 PM on January 22 [6 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
lower-speed roads conducive to
people breathing
people walking
children playing
commerce
people who like quiet
posted by eustatic at 2:12 PM on January 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by migurski at 1:05 PM on January 22 [6 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
lower-speed roads conducive to
people breathing
people walking
children playing
commerce
people who like quiet
posted by eustatic at 2:12 PM on January 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
Only the pedal-assist type is road legal in the UK, though in london I pretty regularly see people riding without pedaling - sometimes on the huge fat-tyre things, sometimes on more normal looking bikes. But then privately owned electric scooters aren't road legal here, and not only do you see them constantly, pre-Christmas they were stacked ceiling high in shops, advertised on the radio... strange times.
posted by ominous_paws at 2:14 PM on January 22, 2022
posted by ominous_paws at 2:14 PM on January 22, 2022
Li-Ion batteries are still on a manufacturing and deployment learning curve, so to answer the question in the title; 300 eBikes and one Tesla Model 3 make batteries cheaper for everyone.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:25 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:25 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
While hyping up the Segway, Dean Kamen claimed that cities would be redesigned around IT. He might have been wrong about the Segway specifically, but he wasn't wrong that a battery+electric motors is revolutionary for transportation, and that cities will want to specifically handle them. Because it's not just bicycles-with-electric motors. It's also Segways. And scooters, electric-scooters, and sit-down electric scooters. And electric wheelchairs, and non-electric wheelchairs and mobility assist carts with handlebars. And hoverboards. And boosted skateboards. And don't forget the OneWheel and also the AirWheel.
posted by fragmede at 2:26 PM on January 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by fragmede at 2:26 PM on January 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
Call them junior mopeds, maybe.
Electric horse. It'll go 30 leagues per quarterday!
posted by dephlogisticated at 2:27 PM on January 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
Electric horse. It'll go 30 leagues per quarterday!
posted by dephlogisticated at 2:27 PM on January 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
Also I'm sort of surprised that they're arguing for hubcentric drives, whether direct or planetary - I thought the current thinking with electric drives was that they still got a good advantage out of traditional gearing, so sticking them on the bottom bracket was ugly but valuable. I mean, it kills regenerative braking, sure, but I'm not convinced that really amounts to enough on a bike to justify the engineering.
posted by Kyol at 2:30 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Kyol at 2:30 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
I keep thinking about an e-bike. My city is so vertical that I ride less than I could because I just don't want to deal with the hills and people and a little electrical assist would help a lot.
posted by octothorpe at 2:37 PM on January 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 2:37 PM on January 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
I see ebikes all over! People taking their kids to school, grocery deliveries on trailers towed behind a bike, an older couple I met on the GAP who wanted to tour but weren't feeling the sustained hills, a friend who hurt his knee badly and thought he wouldn't be able to ride again, people on e-citibike who can now zip-zip across the bridges. It's wonderful. Sometimes deliveristas let me race them on my non-e-bike and tell me I'm fast. More cycling of any kind is good, my great wish is that cities and towns would provide secure parking options for e-bikes as they're a very common theft target.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 2:45 PM on January 22, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 2:45 PM on January 22, 2022 [16 favorites]
There needs to be some sort of alliance between the foot, pedal, e-bike, scooter, assisted device, golf cart, and maybe the kayak factions.A few years ago when the scooter craze was in full swing, a few cities like Atlanta started using the term LIT lanes for “lite individual transportation”. Here in Oakland we see scooter icons on the pavement in the same places as bicycle icons. It’s a good idea.
posted by migurski at 2:45 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
i love the e-bikes that are pedal assist. i can ride alongside my sister in law while she smokes a cigarette, zooming by in her electric wheelchair; it's one of the only times when we're riding together at relatively the same speed. ciao!
posted by eustatic at 2:45 PM on January 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 2:45 PM on January 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
I’ve ridden an ebike with no mechanical connection between the pedals and the wheels (Mando Footloose) and it felt awful. On that particular bike the generator has far too little resistance so it feels like you’re not contributing, so you don’t feel like bothering.
Even on a normal e-bike with aggressive assistance, being able to feel the road through the pedals is quite important to feeling in control.
Some of this could be fixed by clever software and a more appropriately sized generator, but really the writer needs to build one of these contraptions and demonstrate that it’s actually both cheaper to build and better than what it’s meant to replace.
posted by grahamparks at 2:49 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Even on a normal e-bike with aggressive assistance, being able to feel the road through the pedals is quite important to feeling in control.
Some of this could be fixed by clever software and a more appropriately sized generator, but really the writer needs to build one of these contraptions and demonstrate that it’s actually both cheaper to build and better than what it’s meant to replace.
posted by grahamparks at 2:49 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
I love my pedal assist ebike, and I turn off the motor if I’m on a multi-use trail. There are “no motorized vehicles” signs posted in my town, so I figure that means revert back to pedal only mode.
posted by dehowell at 2:53 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by dehowell at 2:53 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
While hyping up the Segway, Dean Kamen claimed that cities would be redesigned around IT.
About 40 minutes ago I had to step off of the sidewalk into the street because of two people on Segways riding side by side taking up the entire sidewalk. Serious urban redesign to allow better multimodal use would be great, but so would people choosing to not be jerks.
I'm really intrigued by e-bikes and will probably get one in the next year. I just wish the regulatory and built environments would catch up.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:55 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
About 40 minutes ago I had to step off of the sidewalk into the street because of two people on Segways riding side by side taking up the entire sidewalk. Serious urban redesign to allow better multimodal use would be great, but so would people choosing to not be jerks.
I'm really intrigued by e-bikes and will probably get one in the next year. I just wish the regulatory and built environments would catch up.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:55 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
A lot of the problems with bike traffic and e-bikes goes away with better-designed roads. If the road is segregated for the fastest--faster--slower--slowest traffic, that design choice saves lives. There will always be mistakes, assholes, and mechanical failures, but if there's a concrete barrier + the parking lane between the cars and the bikes for example, and a curb between the bikes and the pedestrians, that will eliminate a lot of it. All traffic is not the same and can't share the same street.
If you really want to get an e-bike, rent one first. I did and had a blast, but it also made me aware that I wouldn't want one most of the time-- too expensive so I wouldn't be able to park it at the grocery store, and I can definitely see myself getting into trouble going too fast for my own handling ability. And it was too heavy to lift all the way over my head, which means it's too heavy to be an everyday commuter for me.
posted by blnkfrnk at 3:07 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
If you really want to get an e-bike, rent one first. I did and had a blast, but it also made me aware that I wouldn't want one most of the time-- too expensive so I wouldn't be able to park it at the grocery store, and I can definitely see myself getting into trouble going too fast for my own handling ability. And it was too heavy to lift all the way over my head, which means it's too heavy to be an everyday commuter for me.
posted by blnkfrnk at 3:07 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Where I live there are share bikes available a ridiculously low cost (it's a €25/year fee and you can ride 45 minutes a day without paying anymore, over that and its €1 per hour or something, plus you can earn points that you can use to pay off rides). About half of the fleet are pedal-assist electric bikes, the non-electric ones are really hard to ride because they weigh a fuckton. You just don't really notice it with the electric models. Meanwhile, they've solved the conundrum of "are these electric bikes really mopeds" by allowing mopeds to use the bike lanes. And it's a very car-centric culture, one to a car, so we are all learning how to coexist with bikes, e-bikes, mopeds, scooters and everything else. And of course the learning curve is steepening thanks to the hordes of gig economy delivery folk who use all forms of transport available and tend to ignore many of the rules of urban civilization in their mad rush to get those Big Macs to your doorstep while still lukewarm. In conclusion, I live in a land of contrasts.
posted by chavenet at 3:10 PM on January 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 3:10 PM on January 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
blnkfrnk: " the parking lane between the cars and the bikes"
Oh god no. We have this in places and it's a fertile valley of death by driver's-side door opening, distracted pedestrians, criminal parking jobs and the inevitable "I'll just leave my shopping here while I take the dog inside"
posted by chavenet at 3:13 PM on January 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
Oh god no. We have this in places and it's a fertile valley of death by driver's-side door opening, distracted pedestrians, criminal parking jobs and the inevitable "I'll just leave my shopping here while I take the dog inside"
posted by chavenet at 3:13 PM on January 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
Yeah as someone who has looked into ebikes but hasn't yet pulled the trigger on one, I'm a bit surprised to see them touting the advantages of hub motors. It seemed like, the last time I looked (12 months or so ago), that most of the action in the ebike space was around bottom-bracket motors. The ones from Bosch looked particularly enticing, since you can retrofit them on a "regular" bike if you want to (plus or minus some compatibility issues).
My understanding was that, by running the power through the normal chain and rear cassette, you get a wider torque/speed curve than you would out of hub motors. Just like when you pedal with your legs, you can adjust the gear ratio to provide a lot of torque from a standing start (particularly important with cargo bikes or when towing a trailer for a kid or whatever) without overloading the motor, but then you can upshift to achieve higher speeds. And, if the electric system conks out, you can still pedal them normally—it becomes just a rather heavy standard bike.
FWIW, you could absolutely still do regen braking with a bottom-bracket motor setup. You would just need to remove the "freewheel" in the rear hub, which is the ratchet-type mechanism that allows the wheel to rotate freely when it's moving faster than the cassette. While this is basically universal on bikes today (except fixies), it wasn't always. I have a conventional, pedal-powered 10-speed bike from the 1960s where the freewheel is located in the bottom bracket, and not in the rear hub. So when you coast on it, the chain moves continuously. It's considered a weird setup (many bike techs have never seen such a thing), but it has the interesting advantage that it lets you change gears when coasting, not just while pedaling. A setup like that would work well with a bottom-bracket motor, as long as the motor setup had a freewheel built into it.
I've been a bit dismayed at the unfriendliness between traditional cyclists and e-bike riders. While it's inevitable that some people are going to do dumbass things, getting more people out on two wheels seems like a net good overall, particularly if you want more and better non-car infrastructure.
The solution isn't to push e-bike riders out into car traffic, where a collision will almost certainly be severe if not fatal (and where many people are just not going to ride—my cycling-in-traffic days are mostly behind me at this point, having busted myself up to the point where my next good crash will probably end my cycling career for good), and it's not "share the road" platitudes. The solution is separate lanes for cars, mid-speed vehicles (e-bikes, e-scooters, roadies in spandex wearing TT helmets), and pedestrians and low-speed vehicles (children on bikes/trikes, power wheelchairs, Rascal scooters, etc.). And that space should absolutely be taken from car travel lanes or parking lanes.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:19 PM on January 22, 2022 [18 favorites]
My understanding was that, by running the power through the normal chain and rear cassette, you get a wider torque/speed curve than you would out of hub motors. Just like when you pedal with your legs, you can adjust the gear ratio to provide a lot of torque from a standing start (particularly important with cargo bikes or when towing a trailer for a kid or whatever) without overloading the motor, but then you can upshift to achieve higher speeds. And, if the electric system conks out, you can still pedal them normally—it becomes just a rather heavy standard bike.
FWIW, you could absolutely still do regen braking with a bottom-bracket motor setup. You would just need to remove the "freewheel" in the rear hub, which is the ratchet-type mechanism that allows the wheel to rotate freely when it's moving faster than the cassette. While this is basically universal on bikes today (except fixies), it wasn't always. I have a conventional, pedal-powered 10-speed bike from the 1960s where the freewheel is located in the bottom bracket, and not in the rear hub. So when you coast on it, the chain moves continuously. It's considered a weird setup (many bike techs have never seen such a thing), but it has the interesting advantage that it lets you change gears when coasting, not just while pedaling. A setup like that would work well with a bottom-bracket motor, as long as the motor setup had a freewheel built into it.
I've been a bit dismayed at the unfriendliness between traditional cyclists and e-bike riders. While it's inevitable that some people are going to do dumbass things, getting more people out on two wheels seems like a net good overall, particularly if you want more and better non-car infrastructure.
The solution isn't to push e-bike riders out into car traffic, where a collision will almost certainly be severe if not fatal (and where many people are just not going to ride—my cycling-in-traffic days are mostly behind me at this point, having busted myself up to the point where my next good crash will probably end my cycling career for good), and it's not "share the road" platitudes. The solution is separate lanes for cars, mid-speed vehicles (e-bikes, e-scooters, roadies in spandex wearing TT helmets), and pedestrians and low-speed vehicles (children on bikes/trikes, power wheelchairs, Rascal scooters, etc.). And that space should absolutely be taken from car travel lanes or parking lanes.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:19 PM on January 22, 2022 [18 favorites]
I've seen it where you've got a moving lane, then a parking lane, then a hedge or a concrete barrier, and THEN a bike lane, which is not accessible to the cars because they'd be driving on the curb. I would prefer that to the moving lane, bike lane, parking lane, sidewalk that we have now-- but I've seen it done even worse elsewhere.
The barrier is key-- drivers don't seem to respond to anything but the threat of harm to the car. But then I think you'd have to figure out how to get people from the car, behind the barrier, and to a curb cut for those who are rolling or can't step up.
posted by blnkfrnk at 3:20 PM on January 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
The barrier is key-- drivers don't seem to respond to anything but the threat of harm to the car. But then I think you'd have to figure out how to get people from the car, behind the barrier, and to a curb cut for those who are rolling or can't step up.
posted by blnkfrnk at 3:20 PM on January 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
"Ebikes are also limited to 15 mph in europe and 20mph in the USA."
And there are ads everywhere selling devices to circumvent that limitation.
posted by cccorlew at 3:25 PM on January 22, 2022
And there are ads everywhere selling devices to circumvent that limitation.
posted by cccorlew at 3:25 PM on January 22, 2022
I bought an ebike two years ago (a Giant e-Explore, mountain bike style) and it is the single greatest purchase of my life. I ride so much more than I ever did before and am in better shape. I live in the hilly city of Spokane and it makes such a huge difference to have the assist. I tell people that an ebike is just like a regular bicycle except you are thirty years younger.
It drives me crazy when I see groups that should be allies of the bike revolution parroting Fox News talking points.
posted by LarryC at 4:04 PM on January 22, 2022 [21 favorites]
It drives me crazy when I see groups that should be allies of the bike revolution parroting Fox News talking points.
posted by LarryC at 4:04 PM on January 22, 2022 [21 favorites]
> the single greatest purchase of my life
Yeah, my wife got an e-bike a couple of years ago, and it has really been a game changer. She has bad knees etc and just doesn't ride as much as I do. But with her ebike, we can take rides together and really enjoy it - she can keep up, and she can ride decent distances without it killing her (either during the ride or from muscle & knee pain the next day).
And I've found that I really enjoy riding it. Like I had a little medical procedure a while ago, the type of thing where it's a couple of months before you're really back to 100%. I just didn't feel like doing much and, for example, if I did take my own bike out I'd find myself running out of steam after an alarmingly short time.
So I would just take the ebike and what do you know - I could ride for 30 minutes or even 60 minutes and really enjoy it. In fact I started out thinking I'll just take short ride around the neighborhood for 5 or 10 minutes. But I was feeling so good I just kept going. And then one time I went a little too far. On my own bike I probably would have been calling for a ride home but with the ebike I just turned up the juice and made it home, no problem.
So as a solution when you're not feeling very well, maybe you're getting a bit older, and so on - it really works.
But also - the average sedentary person who tries bicycling feels about the same way after their first attempts at riding, that I do when I try to take a ride while I'm feeling quite ill (I ride some thousands of miles a year, so like a 40 mile ride is, when I'm feeling decent, fairly ho-hum). Getting over that initial, very painful, hump from completely sedentary to moderately active is really, really difficult for many people.
And an ebike is one of the best tools I have ever seen for that purpose.
posted by flug at 4:48 PM on January 22, 2022 [15 favorites]
Yeah, my wife got an e-bike a couple of years ago, and it has really been a game changer. She has bad knees etc and just doesn't ride as much as I do. But with her ebike, we can take rides together and really enjoy it - she can keep up, and she can ride decent distances without it killing her (either during the ride or from muscle & knee pain the next day).
And I've found that I really enjoy riding it. Like I had a little medical procedure a while ago, the type of thing where it's a couple of months before you're really back to 100%. I just didn't feel like doing much and, for example, if I did take my own bike out I'd find myself running out of steam after an alarmingly short time.
So I would just take the ebike and what do you know - I could ride for 30 minutes or even 60 minutes and really enjoy it. In fact I started out thinking I'll just take short ride around the neighborhood for 5 or 10 minutes. But I was feeling so good I just kept going. And then one time I went a little too far. On my own bike I probably would have been calling for a ride home but with the ebike I just turned up the juice and made it home, no problem.
So as a solution when you're not feeling very well, maybe you're getting a bit older, and so on - it really works.
But also - the average sedentary person who tries bicycling feels about the same way after their first attempts at riding, that I do when I try to take a ride while I'm feeling quite ill (I ride some thousands of miles a year, so like a 40 mile ride is, when I'm feeling decent, fairly ho-hum). Getting over that initial, very painful, hump from completely sedentary to moderately active is really, really difficult for many people.
And an ebike is one of the best tools I have ever seen for that purpose.
posted by flug at 4:48 PM on January 22, 2022 [15 favorites]
the same people aren’t asking for speed governors for cars which are the vehicles actually killing everyone
I'd love to see numbers for the numbers of injuries and deaths caused by e-bike riders. I doubt it is much higher than the background rate involving human-powered bikes.
Cyclists shouldn't use roads, because those are for cars. Cyclists shouldn't get bike lanes, because they cost too much and/or take up space reserved for cars. Cyclists shouldn't use bike or shared lanes, because marathon runners and walkers need to take up the entire path — god forbid they stick to their own lane. Cyclists shouldn't use electric bikes, because they go "too fast", which is usually shorthand for the crime of using power assist, instead of pedalling.
Whatever else, there seems no speed limit posted to keep threads from quickly devolving into (e-)bike riders being the enemies.
Anything that gets people out of cars is good — and may be necessary, in the long run. Bikes will do that. The reality is that more of those bikes will have electric motors on them as time goes on. I'd welcome a reset and genuine adjustment at all levels about this discussion that doesn't involve the same parties trotting out the same tired cliches.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:51 PM on January 22, 2022 [18 favorites]
I'd love to see numbers for the numbers of injuries and deaths caused by e-bike riders. I doubt it is much higher than the background rate involving human-powered bikes.
Cyclists shouldn't use roads, because those are for cars. Cyclists shouldn't get bike lanes, because they cost too much and/or take up space reserved for cars. Cyclists shouldn't use bike or shared lanes, because marathon runners and walkers need to take up the entire path — god forbid they stick to their own lane. Cyclists shouldn't use electric bikes, because they go "too fast", which is usually shorthand for the crime of using power assist, instead of pedalling.
Whatever else, there seems no speed limit posted to keep threads from quickly devolving into (e-)bike riders being the enemies.
Anything that gets people out of cars is good — and may be necessary, in the long run. Bikes will do that. The reality is that more of those bikes will have electric motors on them as time goes on. I'd welcome a reset and genuine adjustment at all levels about this discussion that doesn't involve the same parties trotting out the same tired cliches.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:51 PM on January 22, 2022 [18 favorites]
> ads everywhere selling devices to circumvent that limitation
That's a problem I suppose but a mod like that is always going to be limited to 5% "tech enthusiast" portion of the population - and maybe that's even less than 5% in this case.
FWIW when we took a cycling trip to Europe a while ago it took us a long time to figure out that a surprisingly high percentage of the bikes on the trail were e-bikes. You would see a lot of family trips where the kids and parents where riding their normal bikes and then grandpa and grandma were on their ebikes.
But, the ebikes there have the 25kph/15.5mph limiter, and they only work to assist pedaling. That means that ebikes just blend in with other trail traffic (we were on the Danube River Trail for most of our trip) and you would never know the difference unless you took a close look at the bike.
I passed a whole lot of grandpas on ebikes. And FYI, I'm not that fast a rider.
I will say that the 20mph U.S. limit means that ebikes do stand out a little more here - and that is the Class 1 ebikes that only assist when you're pedaling. The Class 2 (20mph, no pedaling required) and Class 3 (28mph, no pedaling required) ebikes really are more like small mopeds.
I believe the thinking in setting the U.S. ebike classes is that they knew there would be a strong desire here to mod your ebike to make it faster. So if they could get a little ahead of that and just make categories that would satisfy the vast majority of the people straight out of the box, that would cut down on the modding a lot.
Just for example, our ebike neither my wife or I have any desire to mod. It's already quite powerful enough - and if you mod it to make it go faster, the trade-off is shorter range. It already provides a wide range of assist choices from barely assist/long range to strong assist/pretty short range. So modding it wouldn't really accomplish anything - because they have already provided pretty much the maximum range of actually useful options.
posted by flug at 5:01 PM on January 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
That's a problem I suppose but a mod like that is always going to be limited to 5% "tech enthusiast" portion of the population - and maybe that's even less than 5% in this case.
FWIW when we took a cycling trip to Europe a while ago it took us a long time to figure out that a surprisingly high percentage of the bikes on the trail were e-bikes. You would see a lot of family trips where the kids and parents where riding their normal bikes and then grandpa and grandma were on their ebikes.
But, the ebikes there have the 25kph/15.5mph limiter, and they only work to assist pedaling. That means that ebikes just blend in with other trail traffic (we were on the Danube River Trail for most of our trip) and you would never know the difference unless you took a close look at the bike.
I passed a whole lot of grandpas on ebikes. And FYI, I'm not that fast a rider.
I will say that the 20mph U.S. limit means that ebikes do stand out a little more here - and that is the Class 1 ebikes that only assist when you're pedaling. The Class 2 (20mph, no pedaling required) and Class 3 (28mph, no pedaling required) ebikes really are more like small mopeds.
I believe the thinking in setting the U.S. ebike classes is that they knew there would be a strong desire here to mod your ebike to make it faster. So if they could get a little ahead of that and just make categories that would satisfy the vast majority of the people straight out of the box, that would cut down on the modding a lot.
Just for example, our ebike neither my wife or I have any desire to mod. It's already quite powerful enough - and if you mod it to make it go faster, the trade-off is shorter range. It already provides a wide range of assist choices from barely assist/long range to strong assist/pretty short range. So modding it wouldn't really accomplish anything - because they have already provided pretty much the maximum range of actually useful options.
posted by flug at 5:01 PM on January 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
No matter if governments classify and regulate e-bikes like bicycles rather than motorcycles, a friend said her insurance company charges a serious extra premium to cover them (for liability, not just theft).
posted by PhineasGage at 5:11 PM on January 22, 2022
posted by PhineasGage at 5:11 PM on January 22, 2022
Bird scooters came to town. There is a group of junior high boys, or young highschoolers who were out on them, buzzing the city buses. They have no clue about vehicle safety. I wonder about them and rental bikes. Schools need electric transport, safety classes. There will be blood.
posted by Oyéah at 5:39 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 5:39 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ebikes make it possible for more people to bike and keep up with normal bike traffic. That’s when ebikes are at their best. Lots of awesome stories in this thread. They make it possible for my 85 year old in-laws to ride for hours with us, cover the miles and enjoy the whole ride! I remember the stokemonkey days 15 years ago when cargo bikers used them to keep the flow going even under load. That when I was first exposed to the idea. Those hubs were in the “condiment, not the whole meal” category.
Soon after that I had my first ebike double take, seeing delivery bikers zooming around NYC without moving their legs! It’s pretty obvious that there are manufacturers and fleet owners taking advantage of the space bikes have carved out and then screwing the pooch. So any bullshit is largely on them and the lack of regulation.
There are e-hole riders though, unhelmeted grown men salmoning lanes and bombing down sidewalks. Fuck those guys.
Maybe the e-holes will scare everyone into the three lane + sidewalk world we need and deserve, if they do I will eat my helmet. In the meantime we have to push for regs and keep ebikes around for the positives.
posted by drowsy at 5:40 PM on January 22, 2022
Soon after that I had my first ebike double take, seeing delivery bikers zooming around NYC without moving their legs! It’s pretty obvious that there are manufacturers and fleet owners taking advantage of the space bikes have carved out and then screwing the pooch. So any bullshit is largely on them and the lack of regulation.
There are e-hole riders though, unhelmeted grown men salmoning lanes and bombing down sidewalks. Fuck those guys.
Maybe the e-holes will scare everyone into the three lane + sidewalk world we need and deserve, if they do I will eat my helmet. In the meantime we have to push for regs and keep ebikes around for the positives.
posted by drowsy at 5:40 PM on January 22, 2022
Rode the 9 miles to my LBS and then back just now on my new spiffy e-bike on the gorgeous 62℉ California January day we had today.
I let myself get hella out of shape these past 6 years but it made the route feel like I was a 20yo again (I didn't have a car until my early 30s). I plan on taking the bike out every weekend on my weekly eat-out meal.
I also have a Leaf but yeah, cycling is where it's at (when it's not too hot, cold, or raining)
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:55 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
I let myself get hella out of shape these past 6 years but it made the route feel like I was a 20yo again (I didn't have a car until my early 30s). I plan on taking the bike out every weekend on my weekly eat-out meal.
I also have a Leaf but yeah, cycling is where it's at (when it's not too hot, cold, or raining)
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:55 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
In DC there seem to be two big groups of ebike users: people using ebikes from Capital Bikeshare (like NYC's Citibike, now owned by Lyft) or Lime (which bought out Uber's ill-fated Jump acquisition), and parents on things that look like cargo bikes to me, only with kids sitting where the cargo would be. I've tried the Capital Bikeshare ones and found the power assist kind of unsettling, but I see people on them every day. Riding my (entirely human powered) bike the other day I had a weird game of leapfrog where my top speed was higher than the guy on the Bikeshare bike, but he zoomed past me from a cold start at a stop light. And then I passed him again like two blocks later, only to have him pass me once more on another cold start, after which I turned so our coincidental race was over.
The parents on the cargo bike things seem to LOVE them, because they multiply.
And yeah, nobody knows how shared infrastructure works. In DC bikes and scooters can be ridden on roads anywhere, and on sidewalks outside the downtown core only. I've had people in cars yell at me and say I should be on the sidewalk (I shouldn't), and people in cars and trucks use bike lanes as their own parking/loading/whatever zone ALL THE TIME. I nearly got killed by somebody pulling out of a parking spot without looking. I had to cross the center line to avoid him, and it's just pure luck there wasn't an oncoming car headed the other way. Bikes are only going to be safe from bad drivers in this country with fully separated infrastructure. Drivers typically aren't looking for things smaller than SUV sized and some paint on the pavement isn't going to change that.
posted by fedward at 6:43 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
The parents on the cargo bike things seem to LOVE them, because they multiply.
And yeah, nobody knows how shared infrastructure works. In DC bikes and scooters can be ridden on roads anywhere, and on sidewalks outside the downtown core only. I've had people in cars yell at me and say I should be on the sidewalk (I shouldn't), and people in cars and trucks use bike lanes as their own parking/loading/whatever zone ALL THE TIME. I nearly got killed by somebody pulling out of a parking spot without looking. I had to cross the center line to avoid him, and it's just pure luck there wasn't an oncoming car headed the other way. Bikes are only going to be safe from bad drivers in this country with fully separated infrastructure. Drivers typically aren't looking for things smaller than SUV sized and some paint on the pavement isn't going to change that.
posted by fedward at 6:43 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Presuming I'm parsing this correctly, even if true, powering an ebike with your own energy is not a very enticing proposition, even with only a 5% efficiency hit.
I think the advantage is supposed to be that the rider provide the same level of effort regardless of the terrain. And this can be done more cheaply and simply than other methods.
posted by VTX at 7:12 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think the advantage is supposed to be that the rider provide the same level of effort regardless of the terrain. And this can be done more cheaply and simply than other methods.
posted by VTX at 7:12 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wait until you see the stats about car fires.
posted by schmod at 7:48 PM on January 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by schmod at 7:48 PM on January 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
Jesus Christ, every time we have a conversation about bikes, people come out of the woodwork digging for reasons to pontificate about why they are bad and should be strongly discouraged.
It’s just so exhausting.
posted by schmod at 7:50 PM on January 22, 2022 [22 favorites]
It’s just so exhausting.
posted by schmod at 7:50 PM on January 22, 2022 [22 favorites]
Nine e-bike batteries cause huge NYC apartment fire.
"The New York City Fire Department found that a 32-year-old man was charging nine lithium-ion e-bike batteries simultaneously overnight."
Apparently he had seven bikes in his apartment. Doesn't sound like a typical use case, but leave it to the media to do its stupid thing.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:53 PM on January 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
"The New York City Fire Department found that a 32-year-old man was charging nine lithium-ion e-bike batteries simultaneously overnight."
Apparently he had seven bikes in his apartment. Doesn't sound like a typical use case, but leave it to the media to do its stupid thing.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:53 PM on January 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think the advantage is supposed to be that the rider provide the same level of effort regardless of the terrain.
Well, yeah, that's supposed to be the advantage of all ebikes, no? The idea that some company is eliminating the mechanical drive train (which seems to mean "human driving the rear wheel") in favor of driving a generator still seems kind of ill conceived. A human driving the rear wheel, even in dumb form, conserves the battery power used by assisting the electric motor, all without that supposed 5% efficiency hit, which I think sounds pretty optimistic.
Maybe the idea is that by retaining pedals, they're avoiding being classified as a motorcycle despite having performance that approaches one? It seems that a small, lightweight electric motorcycle/(vespea type)scooter would be an ideal vehicle for many that could be realized now, but for a few reasons, faces something of an uphill battle here in N. America. Youtube channel, Fortnine, referenced above, has a video about this. Many ebikes already almost fit the bill in performance, and are obviously not actually intended to be pedaled any significant distance, but enjoy much more lax regulations because they aren't legally motorcycles. Which, don't get me wrong, I think is a good thing, filling a niche that needs filling.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:12 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well, yeah, that's supposed to be the advantage of all ebikes, no? The idea that some company is eliminating the mechanical drive train (which seems to mean "human driving the rear wheel") in favor of driving a generator still seems kind of ill conceived. A human driving the rear wheel, even in dumb form, conserves the battery power used by assisting the electric motor, all without that supposed 5% efficiency hit, which I think sounds pretty optimistic.
Maybe the idea is that by retaining pedals, they're avoiding being classified as a motorcycle despite having performance that approaches one? It seems that a small, lightweight electric motorcycle/(vespea type)scooter would be an ideal vehicle for many that could be realized now, but for a few reasons, faces something of an uphill battle here in N. America. Youtube channel, Fortnine, referenced above, has a video about this. Many ebikes already almost fit the bill in performance, and are obviously not actually intended to be pedaled any significant distance, but enjoy much more lax regulations because they aren't legally motorcycles. Which, don't get me wrong, I think is a good thing, filling a niche that needs filling.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:12 PM on January 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have thoughts on this post, and this discussion.
- There are definitely two kinds of e-bikes. Those that are basically bikes, but with power assist, and those that are basically low-power motorcycles, but with pedals. The former are generally more expensive (and nice ones can cost 3x what a decent Vespa-style scooter would cost), but you can ride them just like a bike. The latter have bike drivetrains (I'm guessing) to avoid being classified as motorcycles and to give you a failsafe when the battery runs out, but they are no fun to pedal.
- A conventional bike drivetrain is incredibly efficient. Which is important, because the human body makes for a lousy engine. For the author of the linked post to say that having an electric motor in addition to a conventional bike drivetrain is an "abomination" makes it very hard for me to take him seriously.
- Another thing that makes it very hard to take him seriously is proposing eliminating brakes except for regenerative brakes. For one thing—as he admits—regenerative braking isn't very effective on bikes. It relies on momentum, and bikes are light. More importantly, all electric cars have conventional brakes for safety. All bikes are legally required to have two independent braking systems for safety.
- He says there's a pedal-generator-motor drivetrain that is only 5% less efficient than chain drive. Maybe. Here's an article from 2011 suggesting that this kind of drivetrain would have 42–67% efficiency losses. Even if the Schaeffler drive is perfectly efficient, it would certainly make for a weird cycling experience, because the generator provides a consistent level of resistance. Pedalling harder won't make you go faster. Maybe I'm a bike snob (definitely I'm a bike snob) but part of the fun of riding a bike is the sense of connection. If you're just looking for basic transportation, maybe that's not a big deal, but it is a loss.
- The author thinks that $1000 is too much for an e-bike, and that $500 would be his "Toyota Corolla" equivalent. In the USA, at least, the minimum you can spend on a conventional bike that isn't utter dreck is about $350, and that's built using tooling that was probably depreciated during the the last millennium. Even deleting the parts he considers unnecessary, I'm not sure how you could build a decent $500 e-bike that wasn't a year away from being a big pile of e-waste. There's already a big enough problem with crap department-store bikes that are built to fail.
All bikes are legally required to have two independent braking systems for safety.
Where? Because I've seen a lot of bikes on the roads of everywhere I've ever been with only one brake (or sometimes even none, in the case of on some fixie riders).
posted by Dysk at 10:43 PM on January 22, 2022
Where? Because I've seen a lot of bikes on the roads of everywhere I've ever been with only one brake (or sometimes even none, in the case of on some fixie riders).
posted by Dysk at 10:43 PM on January 22, 2022
That article is full off confidently stated half-truths.
"Cars and bikes don't get along" so we should have bike lanes is an incredibly car-centric view. If the cars would go as slow as bikes then they can mix perfectly well. You can see shared roads like this in many European cities. They are not ubiquitous yet because car owners have a lot of lob lobbying power but they are coming to more an more urban centers.
The 300 bikes for one Tesla is also classic old school car industry thinking. Why should it be up to the non-emission fraction to fight it out? How about we lose a diesel for 300 bikes and we also get a Tesla for longer trips.
posted by patrick54 at 10:49 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
"Cars and bikes don't get along" so we should have bike lanes is an incredibly car-centric view. If the cars would go as slow as bikes then they can mix perfectly well. You can see shared roads like this in many European cities. They are not ubiquitous yet because car owners have a lot of lob lobbying power but they are coming to more an more urban centers.
The 300 bikes for one Tesla is also classic old school car industry thinking. Why should it be up to the non-emission fraction to fight it out? How about we lose a diesel for 300 bikes and we also get a Tesla for longer trips.
posted by patrick54 at 10:49 PM on January 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
people breathing
people walking
children playing
commerce
people who like quiet
e-bikes belonging to the emperor
posted by zamboni at 10:50 PM on January 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
people walking
children playing
commerce
people who like quiet
e-bikes belonging to the emperor
posted by zamboni at 10:50 PM on January 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
in terms of their safety, I found the video Why Electric Bikes are More Dangerous than Motorcycles - from motorbike Youtuber FortNine an interesting watch. It seems like there are some double standards of safety between motorbike world and e-bike world.
Double standards which the video basically justifies.
He spends the first part of the video explaining all the extra safety features on motorcycles (impressive armor, mandatory licensing, better visibility, etc.) and then throw out some stats saying that maybe the deaths per mile are the same, not that we have good enough data to really demonstrate, as he admits.
It's a rhetorical slight of hand, possibly unintentional. But these observations aren't additive. The comparison he makes is between motorcyclists that use those safety features and unregulated ebikes.
So arguing that ebikes are so dangerous they need more safety features is the equivalent of arguing that motorbikes are, in some sense, insufficiently safe no matter how responsible the rider.
posted by mark k at 10:51 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Double standards which the video basically justifies.
He spends the first part of the video explaining all the extra safety features on motorcycles (impressive armor, mandatory licensing, better visibility, etc.) and then throw out some stats saying that maybe the deaths per mile are the same, not that we have good enough data to really demonstrate, as he admits.
It's a rhetorical slight of hand, possibly unintentional. But these observations aren't additive. The comparison he makes is between motorcyclists that use those safety features and unregulated ebikes.
So arguing that ebikes are so dangerous they need more safety features is the equivalent of arguing that motorbikes are, in some sense, insufficiently safe no matter how responsible the rider.
posted by mark k at 10:51 PM on January 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
That's a problem I suppose but a mod like that is always going to be limited to 5% "tech enthusiast" portion of the population - and maybe that's even less than 5% in this case
I really don't think that'll be the case. It'll be more like the led headlight conversions on cars which just spray light everywhere. Bike stores will end up selling conversions the same way auto part stores sell off road use only led light bars.
It is unfortunate that what'll probably happen, at least on trails, is there will be specific trails that are no motors and everything else will be a free for all with minimal enforcement of speed limits. Thats how boating works in my jurisdiction. Lakes are either 100% no motors, electric only, < 10hp, and then the sky is the limit. There are speed limits that essentially only get enforced one or two weekends a year.
posted by Mitheral at 10:57 PM on January 22, 2022
I really don't think that'll be the case. It'll be more like the led headlight conversions on cars which just spray light everywhere. Bike stores will end up selling conversions the same way auto part stores sell off road use only led light bars.
It is unfortunate that what'll probably happen, at least on trails, is there will be specific trails that are no motors and everything else will be a free for all with minimal enforcement of speed limits. Thats how boating works in my jurisdiction. Lakes are either 100% no motors, electric only, < 10hp, and then the sky is the limit. There are speed limits that essentially only get enforced one or two weekends a year.
posted by Mitheral at 10:57 PM on January 22, 2022
I have not ridden an e-bike, but I don’t see how they could possibly be as usable in cooler climates as ordinary bikes. I have ridden for hours in medium to heavy rain on sub 50F days in Seattle in jeans, a long-sleeved T, and a windbreaker that was not waterproof and hardly felt the cold, but I bet I wouldn’t have been able to take much more than half an hour on an e-bike in the same conditions. Plus the wind chill from greater speed on an e-bike — and are those hub motors designed to be able to take splashing through puddles a hundred times on a single ride without being destroyed? I somehow doubt it.
Which would make e-bikes fair weather friends at best, and quite a bit less likely to be a true substitute for a car.
posted by jamjam at 1:10 AM on January 23, 2022
Which would make e-bikes fair weather friends at best, and quite a bit less likely to be a true substitute for a car.
posted by jamjam at 1:10 AM on January 23, 2022
I have ridden for hours in medium to heavy rain on sub 50F days in Seattle in jeans, a long-sleeved T, and a windbreaker that was not waterproof
Hi! Fellow Seattleite here. I ride in those conditions on both my e-bike and normal bike, too. I promise if you can ride in the cold rain on a bike, an e-bike is a similar experience! You don’t have to go at top speed if you don’t want to.
are those hub motors designed to be able to take splashing through puddles a hundred times on a single ride without being destroyed?
My partner and I both ride in pouring rain for rides lasting an hour or more. Their e-bike is a sub $2k mail order model with a hub motor and mine is a more expensive mid-drive one bought at a local store. Neither motor has suffered any ill effects from water.
posted by lem at 1:30 AM on January 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
Hi! Fellow Seattleite here. I ride in those conditions on both my e-bike and normal bike, too. I promise if you can ride in the cold rain on a bike, an e-bike is a similar experience! You don’t have to go at top speed if you don’t want to.
are those hub motors designed to be able to take splashing through puddles a hundred times on a single ride without being destroyed?
My partner and I both ride in pouring rain for rides lasting an hour or more. Their e-bike is a sub $2k mail order model with a hub motor and mine is a more expensive mid-drive one bought at a local store. Neither motor has suffered any ill effects from water.
posted by lem at 1:30 AM on January 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
First off there are no bikes, even second hand bikes are staying expensive. Secondly, this article is just armchair pontificating from some guy who seems to know nothing about bicycles.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:19 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:19 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have a electric bakfiets that completely replaced one of our cars. I use it as often as I can for under-2mile trips year round in Ohio temps and weather, with my 4yo. My bike is a pedal assist, and 100lbs, so moving it is still heat generating enough for me to be warm - and my “cargo” is covered in a (ventilated) plastic cover and blankets as needed.
I think that ebikes are suffering some anti-bike propaganda fueled by carbrain. I’ve never seen or interacted with a Type 3 ebike, and the ebikes subreddit has split over Type 3s. They probably are a menace (as are motorcycles), but by far and away the most common ebikes are pedal assist and top out around 20mph. So maybe we can save the moral panic and just you know, enforce the regulations that already exist for Type 3s rather than cast aspersions at all ebikes?
Finally, as a nurse with plenty of nurse friends who work ED and ICU - pleaser don’t ride a motorcycle.
posted by shesdeadimalive at 4:42 AM on January 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
I think that ebikes are suffering some anti-bike propaganda fueled by carbrain. I’ve never seen or interacted with a Type 3 ebike, and the ebikes subreddit has split over Type 3s. They probably are a menace (as are motorcycles), but by far and away the most common ebikes are pedal assist and top out around 20mph. So maybe we can save the moral panic and just you know, enforce the regulations that already exist for Type 3s rather than cast aspersions at all ebikes?
Finally, as a nurse with plenty of nurse friends who work ED and ICU - pleaser don’t ride a motorcycle.
posted by shesdeadimalive at 4:42 AM on January 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
I have ridden for hours in medium to heavy rain on sub 50F days in Seattle in jeans, a long-sleeved T, and a windbreaker that was not waterproof and hardly felt the cold, but I bet I wouldn’t have been able to take much more than half an hour on an e-bike in the same conditions.E-bikes are pretty much like regular bikes in this regard: you’re pedaling unless you choose to crank the assist way up — my heart rate profiles are about the same, just going the same or faster on a cargo bike with a child than on my old commuting bike. We’re all-season bike commuters here in DC (~15 miles daily if we just go to work & back) and it’s fine down into the teens for an adult (children need heavy bundling & covers, of course, since they’re not working) with the primary reason not to being icy roads.
If you could do it on a regular bike, you’ll like doing it on an e-bike faster, every day. I say that as a fairly avid cyclist who used to be riding 150-200 miles a week (I miss San Diego for that), often with significant hill climbs. An e-bike is what made that practical every day, because you never have to worry about carrying gear or cargo, the extra weight of durable tires and components, lights, etc. is negligible, and you can get through hotspots going street speeds if you want to avoid, for example, a hill climb on a road shared with bad drivers where you’d be slow for a lengthy climb.
On the subject of bad behavior, I will just note that in a decade of commuting on the same road & multiuse path route I’ve seen far more aggression from, and the only collision caused by, racers on normal road bikes (e-bikes mean you don’t sweat losing momentum as much), and that’s orders of magnitude less than the level of aggressive driving practiced by the median car driver. I am enormously pro-e-bike because they’re the best way to grow the coalition of people asking the city for less car-centric infrastructure.
posted by adamsc at 5:20 AM on January 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
Which would make e-bikes fair weather friends at best, and quite a bit less likely to be a true substitute for a car.
Seattlite here. We have a local ebike company here called Rad Power that has been around several years. I'd be surprised that they'd be able to run a business if the motors failed in PNW weather. I see a lot of their bikes around town.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:50 AM on January 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
Seattlite here. We have a local ebike company here called Rad Power that has been around several years. I'd be surprised that they'd be able to run a business if the motors failed in PNW weather. I see a lot of their bikes around town.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:50 AM on January 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
shesdeadimalive: I’ve never seen or interacted with a Type 3 ebike, and the ebikes subreddit has split over Type 3s. They probably are a menace (as are motorcycles), but by far and away the most common ebikes are pedal assist and top out around 20mph.
From my experience working with a local park system on trail advocacy stuff, the issue is mostly unclassified bikes. Unfortunately, eBikes in most states in the US only need to have a classification on them if they are to be used in places where there are regulations regarding classification; it's not required for sale.
The result I've seen is that most eBikes are cheaper eMoped models that are sold with fine print saying for off road use only. Think the $900 Facebook-ad specials to stuff like Rad Power Bikes... The purchaser thinks "it's just an eBike, I can use it wherever" and then is driving a moped on pedestrian heavy areas. The result ends up being mopeds on busy pedestrian paths, with the riders at 15-20 MPH among pedestrians at 2-3 MPH. It's a mess.
Yes, the big brands (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) sell very nice appropriate-type eBikes that work wonderfully for pedal assist, but that's not the bulk of what'll get seen by any observer along trails.
And finally, yes, this becomes an issue of enforcement, but it's a very difficult thing to do. Many of the bikes come with a variety of class stickers which the user is supposed to apply based on how they've configured their bike (via a helpful app). Thus, it'd require enforcement of behavior, which gets extremely difficult for understaffed park systems to do.
As a cycling advocate I get frustrated because this is a problem caused by the business-backed intentional confusion between human-power vehicles and battery powered. I can offer no solution, but I do think it's important to recognize that there's definitely a problem.
posted by c0nsumer at 6:12 AM on January 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
From my experience working with a local park system on trail advocacy stuff, the issue is mostly unclassified bikes. Unfortunately, eBikes in most states in the US only need to have a classification on them if they are to be used in places where there are regulations regarding classification; it's not required for sale.
The result I've seen is that most eBikes are cheaper eMoped models that are sold with fine print saying for off road use only. Think the $900 Facebook-ad specials to stuff like Rad Power Bikes... The purchaser thinks "it's just an eBike, I can use it wherever" and then is driving a moped on pedestrian heavy areas. The result ends up being mopeds on busy pedestrian paths, with the riders at 15-20 MPH among pedestrians at 2-3 MPH. It's a mess.
Yes, the big brands (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) sell very nice appropriate-type eBikes that work wonderfully for pedal assist, but that's not the bulk of what'll get seen by any observer along trails.
And finally, yes, this becomes an issue of enforcement, but it's a very difficult thing to do. Many of the bikes come with a variety of class stickers which the user is supposed to apply based on how they've configured their bike (via a helpful app). Thus, it'd require enforcement of behavior, which gets extremely difficult for understaffed park systems to do.
As a cycling advocate I get frustrated because this is a problem caused by the business-backed intentional confusion between human-power vehicles and battery powered. I can offer no solution, but I do think it's important to recognize that there's definitely a problem.
posted by c0nsumer at 6:12 AM on January 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
When cars are guests
"Fietsstraat / Auto te gast"
The local bikeshare e-bikes are very heavy, 60 pounds. And the assist completely cuts out above 16 mph, which is good for casual bike share riders.
Road bike e-bikes
I do long rides on country roads with a road bike. The wife of another rider got a nice Trek e-bike, a road bike that can assist up to 28 mph and can go more than 60 miles on a charge. E-bikes are a good way to get started with these type of rides, since there's few short distance, casual paced groups out there. She keeps it dialed low most all the time, and now is strong enough to climb big hills on her old road bike.
The downside is the heavy weight, perhaps 35-40 pounds. I know of another rider that has the new type of lighter weight e-bike. (around 26 pounds?) The battery and motor are much lighter, and it's just a partial assist, perfect for this older rider to keep up with the others.
Theft
Out running errands, I wouldn't lock an e-bike and leave it for a few hours. (Maybe with a very heavy chain and a U-lock too?) Even a short stop with it out of sight would be a bit stressful. Bike shares are great, since I just have to lock it into the station rack and leave it.
posted by jjj606 at 6:31 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Fietsstraat / Auto te gast"
The local bikeshare e-bikes are very heavy, 60 pounds. And the assist completely cuts out above 16 mph, which is good for casual bike share riders.
Road bike e-bikes
I do long rides on country roads with a road bike. The wife of another rider got a nice Trek e-bike, a road bike that can assist up to 28 mph and can go more than 60 miles on a charge. E-bikes are a good way to get started with these type of rides, since there's few short distance, casual paced groups out there. She keeps it dialed low most all the time, and now is strong enough to climb big hills on her old road bike.
The downside is the heavy weight, perhaps 35-40 pounds. I know of another rider that has the new type of lighter weight e-bike. (around 26 pounds?) The battery and motor are much lighter, and it's just a partial assist, perfect for this older rider to keep up with the others.
Theft
Out running errands, I wouldn't lock an e-bike and leave it for a few hours. (Maybe with a very heavy chain and a U-lock too?) Even a short stop with it out of sight would be a bit stressful. Bike shares are great, since I just have to lock it into the station rack and leave it.
posted by jjj606 at 6:31 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Interesting. Not forcing it to pretend to be a bike sure sounds appealing. I really enjoy my ebike and it's incredibly useful. But it's a shit bicycle. It was always going to be a shit bicycle. It's a lightweight motorcycle that one could in principle pedal, if you prefer a harder and slower version of walking. I suppose it's good exercise, if you only care about a few particular leg muscles.
The city regulations that officially make it illegal to use non-petal-activated ebikes in a bike lane - even uncrowded, two meter wide bike lanes - sure don't help. The thing that makes a bike dangerous to others isn't whether or not one is pedaling.
(I'm skeptical regarding the claims about not needing breaks. That's putting a lot of trust in random, hard-to-investigate consumer electronics. I wouldn't want to be there when the battery suddenly drops enough in voltage that the relay no longer works while going downhill. The obvious failsafes seem equally dangerous.)
posted by eotvos at 7:07 AM on January 23, 2022
The city regulations that officially make it illegal to use non-petal-activated ebikes in a bike lane - even uncrowded, two meter wide bike lanes - sure don't help. The thing that makes a bike dangerous to others isn't whether or not one is pedaling.
(I'm skeptical regarding the claims about not needing breaks. That's putting a lot of trust in random, hard-to-investigate consumer electronics. I wouldn't want to be there when the battery suddenly drops enough in voltage that the relay no longer works while going downhill. The obvious failsafes seem equally dangerous.)
posted by eotvos at 7:07 AM on January 23, 2022
folks complain about how normal bikes and ebikes "go too fast" and "are a danger to pedestrians"
Bike are dangerous to pedestrians when vehicle speeds get higher than 20 kph/12 mph or so. On mixed-use paths, there has to be fairly strict speed limits enforced, for everyone's safety.
Otherwise, bike paths need to be segregated from walking/general use paths. This is the only way, in my view to having a sustainable bike-friendly urban culture.
There's a separate issue between those who want an electric mini-motorcyle which can do urban traffic speeds, up to 50 kph/35 mph, and those who want to have human powered cycles, which pretty much top out at 30 kph/20ish mph.
I don't think ebikes/mopeds that can go faster than pedalled bikes are all that safe to stream together either, or should be allowed to use a bike lane infrastructure. They also have no place at all in mixed-use/pedestrian paths/sidewalks, anymore than a gas mortorcycle does.
posted by bonehead at 7:39 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Bike are dangerous to pedestrians when vehicle speeds get higher than 20 kph/12 mph or so. On mixed-use paths, there has to be fairly strict speed limits enforced, for everyone's safety.
Otherwise, bike paths need to be segregated from walking/general use paths. This is the only way, in my view to having a sustainable bike-friendly urban culture.
There's a separate issue between those who want an electric mini-motorcyle which can do urban traffic speeds, up to 50 kph/35 mph, and those who want to have human powered cycles, which pretty much top out at 30 kph/20ish mph.
I don't think ebikes/mopeds that can go faster than pedalled bikes are all that safe to stream together either, or should be allowed to use a bike lane infrastructure. They also have no place at all in mixed-use/pedestrian paths/sidewalks, anymore than a gas mortorcycle does.
posted by bonehead at 7:39 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Furthermore, any vehicle that goes faster than a human-pedaled bike (that 30kph) should probably require a motorcycles class license and some sort of 3rd party insurance.
posted by bonehead at 7:41 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 7:41 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I look at ebikes online more than the average person and have never seen an ad for a tool to illegally circumvent the speed governor. Not that it would do me any good, given that I still have to pedal and have never gotten up to 20mph on flat ground anyway!
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:45 AM on January 23, 2022
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:45 AM on January 23, 2022
The best feeling on a bike is cruising down a hill, barely pedaling, and taking in the surroundings. E-bikes are like that all the time.
Which would probably help explain the accident rates, becasue this is a super-dangerous approach to even just "walking* down a hill.
I'm a fairly aggressive cyclist and man do I regularly see people do shit on bikes that I wouldn't consider - ebikes seem to ramp that all up a notch.
Add in that you lose a lot of the actual salutory exercise and add in a bunch more complexity, maintenance, and conflict minerals to one of the most efficient means of transportation even invented . . .
It's a mixed bag.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:07 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Which would probably help explain the accident rates, becasue this is a super-dangerous approach to even just "walking* down a hill.
I'm a fairly aggressive cyclist and man do I regularly see people do shit on bikes that I wouldn't consider - ebikes seem to ramp that all up a notch.
Add in that you lose a lot of the actual salutory exercise and add in a bunch more complexity, maintenance, and conflict minerals to one of the most efficient means of transportation even invented . . .
It's a mixed bag.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:07 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
While hyping up the Segway, Dean Kamen claimed that cities would be redesigned around IT.
I too remember the 15 seconds when the Segway was the future as fetishised by early-adopting A-list bloggers, before it decayed into an accessory for mall cops and tourist groups.
posted by acb at 8:58 AM on January 23, 2022
I too remember the 15 seconds when the Segway was the future as fetishised by early-adopting A-list bloggers, before it decayed into an accessory for mall cops and tourist groups.
posted by acb at 8:58 AM on January 23, 2022
aspersioncast: "I regularly see people do shit on bikes that I wouldn't consider - ebikes seem to ramp that all up a notch."
+1 to this. E-bikes make it much easier to go fast, and I think that creates a sort of expectation mismatch. Some riders seem to be thinking "the way I am riding is safe for my level of effort," but that level of effort would normally have them going 10 mph, not 20. So their room to react is cut in half, and the consequences of error are much greater. Add to that the fact that a lot of cheaper e-bikes have (obviously) cheaper parts and not great geometry.
posted by adamrice at 9:19 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
+1 to this. E-bikes make it much easier to go fast, and I think that creates a sort of expectation mismatch. Some riders seem to be thinking "the way I am riding is safe for my level of effort," but that level of effort would normally have them going 10 mph, not 20. So their room to react is cut in half, and the consequences of error are much greater. Add to that the fact that a lot of cheaper e-bikes have (obviously) cheaper parts and not great geometry.
posted by adamrice at 9:19 AM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am enormously pro-e-bike because they’re the best way to grow the coalition of people asking the city for less car-centric infrastructure.
I just want to second this comment from adamsc above. The overwhelming majority of e-bikes I see are in this demographic and not the the terroristic straw man of the moral hazard argument. I'm pretty good at keeping up with DC traffic where there are lots of stop lights and a default speed limit of 20 MPH, and I still feel like I'm in danger any time I have to share the car lanes or ride in a bike lane separated from cars only by paint that drivers don't care to follow. The more people out there on bikes of any sort, the better.
posted by fedward at 9:51 AM on January 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
I just want to second this comment from adamsc above. The overwhelming majority of e-bikes I see are in this demographic and not the the terroristic straw man of the moral hazard argument. I'm pretty good at keeping up with DC traffic where there are lots of stop lights and a default speed limit of 20 MPH, and I still feel like I'm in danger any time I have to share the car lanes or ride in a bike lane separated from cars only by paint that drivers don't care to follow. The more people out there on bikes of any sort, the better.
posted by fedward at 9:51 AM on January 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
No matter if governments classify and regulate e-bikes like bicycles rather than motorcycles, a friend said her insurance company charges a serious extra premium to cover them (for liability, not just theft).
Who carries liability insurance on their bicycle, of any type? That's not a requirement anywhere in the US that I'm aware of. I've never heard of it elsewhere either, and I'm not sure how it would work. The way we enforce mandatory auto liability insurance is generally by prohibiting you from getting a new registration (visually evidenced by a new plate or sticker) without proof of insurance, and then it's up to the cops to pull people over for driving with 'dead plates'.
There's no analogous enforcement structure for bicycles.
Even on a normal e-bike with aggressive assistance, being able to feel the road through the pedals is quite important to feeling in control.
Not sure I really agree with this; around my neighborhood (which is hilly), I'm probably only pedaling about 50-70% of the time, with the rest of the time spent coasting downhill. Most of the "road feel" is through the handlebars and saddle. Those downhill segments tend to be the fastest stretches as well, at least for me.
I also ride a motorcycle (mostly recreationally, sometimes for commuting depending on where I've been working—riding a motorcycle in DC-area traffic on superhighways isn't my idea of a great time) and they have plenty of road feel despite not having pedals, having pretty significant suspension systems compared to a bike, etc.
One of the legitimate criticisms of ebikes, at least to me, is that people generally don't wear the same level of safety equipment that (intelligent, ATGATT) motorcycle riders wear. It's admittedly hard to design protective gear that will let you pedal at any significant energy output yet still be protective, but I'd like to see some more work done in that direction. I feel like we could do better than what's out there right now. Maybe some of the stuff BMXers wear would work?
Absent that, if I'm going to ride something on two wheels around cars on main roads, I'd rather it be something completely self-propelled (whether combustion or electric) so I can wear motorcycle-style protective gear, rather than have my ass hanging out in street clothes or spandex cycling gear. I don't ride the motorcycle without a full-face helmet, kevlar jacket with spine protector, and motorcycle boots at minimum. If I'm going more than a quick jaunt around town, I also have kevlar pants with hip and knee sliders. One of these days I'm probably going to upgrade to one of those nice full-body Aerostich astronaut suits. Sure, it's not going to save you when some dipshit in a Lexus tries to make a hood ornament out of you at 60MPH, but it certainly will save you some skin grafts if you go down at moderate road speeds.
After wearing motorcycle gear, it's hard not to feel enormously naked when riding on a bicycle, particularly if I'm going down hills at basically the same speed that I typically ride the motorcycle at around town. The last time I took my road bike out on the road (as opposed to a cycle path), I was keenly aware of "wow, if I hit a pothole at this speed, it's really going to suck".
I also think that motorcycles get more respect and attention from car drivers than bicyclists do. Partially this is because motorcycles generally take up a full lane and aren't relegated to the purgatorial shoulder (full of sand, broken glass, and other miscellaneous road shrapnel), but I can't help but think that it's also related to the fact that hitting a motorcycle is a lot more likely to fuck up their car. Even my relatively lightweight motorcycle is likely to do some damage, and it's filled with nicely volatile gasoline in a thin-walled steel tank that isn't going under your car without a fight. Sure, you may kill me, but I may just reach back from beyond the grave to immolate you and the rest of your minivan's occupants, fucko.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:40 AM on January 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
Who carries liability insurance on their bicycle, of any type? That's not a requirement anywhere in the US that I'm aware of. I've never heard of it elsewhere either, and I'm not sure how it would work. The way we enforce mandatory auto liability insurance is generally by prohibiting you from getting a new registration (visually evidenced by a new plate or sticker) without proof of insurance, and then it's up to the cops to pull people over for driving with 'dead plates'.
There's no analogous enforcement structure for bicycles.
Even on a normal e-bike with aggressive assistance, being able to feel the road through the pedals is quite important to feeling in control.
Not sure I really agree with this; around my neighborhood (which is hilly), I'm probably only pedaling about 50-70% of the time, with the rest of the time spent coasting downhill. Most of the "road feel" is through the handlebars and saddle. Those downhill segments tend to be the fastest stretches as well, at least for me.
I also ride a motorcycle (mostly recreationally, sometimes for commuting depending on where I've been working—riding a motorcycle in DC-area traffic on superhighways isn't my idea of a great time) and they have plenty of road feel despite not having pedals, having pretty significant suspension systems compared to a bike, etc.
One of the legitimate criticisms of ebikes, at least to me, is that people generally don't wear the same level of safety equipment that (intelligent, ATGATT) motorcycle riders wear. It's admittedly hard to design protective gear that will let you pedal at any significant energy output yet still be protective, but I'd like to see some more work done in that direction. I feel like we could do better than what's out there right now. Maybe some of the stuff BMXers wear would work?
Absent that, if I'm going to ride something on two wheels around cars on main roads, I'd rather it be something completely self-propelled (whether combustion or electric) so I can wear motorcycle-style protective gear, rather than have my ass hanging out in street clothes or spandex cycling gear. I don't ride the motorcycle without a full-face helmet, kevlar jacket with spine protector, and motorcycle boots at minimum. If I'm going more than a quick jaunt around town, I also have kevlar pants with hip and knee sliders. One of these days I'm probably going to upgrade to one of those nice full-body Aerostich astronaut suits. Sure, it's not going to save you when some dipshit in a Lexus tries to make a hood ornament out of you at 60MPH, but it certainly will save you some skin grafts if you go down at moderate road speeds.
After wearing motorcycle gear, it's hard not to feel enormously naked when riding on a bicycle, particularly if I'm going down hills at basically the same speed that I typically ride the motorcycle at around town. The last time I took my road bike out on the road (as opposed to a cycle path), I was keenly aware of "wow, if I hit a pothole at this speed, it's really going to suck".
I also think that motorcycles get more respect and attention from car drivers than bicyclists do. Partially this is because motorcycles generally take up a full lane and aren't relegated to the purgatorial shoulder (full of sand, broken glass, and other miscellaneous road shrapnel), but I can't help but think that it's also related to the fact that hitting a motorcycle is a lot more likely to fuck up their car. Even my relatively lightweight motorcycle is likely to do some damage, and it's filled with nicely volatile gasoline in a thin-walled steel tank that isn't going under your car without a fight. Sure, you may kill me, but I may just reach back from beyond the grave to immolate you and the rest of your minivan's occupants, fucko.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:40 AM on January 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
I may be biased, my sister owns an e-bike shop and I have been able to try all kinds of models.
I don’t enjoy the ones that are like a moped, I’d rather ride a proper electric motorcycle. But pedal assist is awesome. For daily chores and commuting you can set a comfortable level of assist to get in your daily exercise, get the heart pumping, but you can also carry 3 kids and 50 pounds of groceries on a long cargo bike with the same effort as a leisurely solo ride. And that is what we did every day.
You can also do looooong rides with a group of mixed fitness and everyone enjoys it. Pedal assist ebikes allowed the whole faintly to go on a 60 mile roundtrip to have a picnic by a lake, riding dirt roads between vineyards.
This is in northern Italy, and at least where my sister lives, there is enough urban and suburban infrastructure for safe an efficient biking, and once outside city limits enough open dirt roads that people are used to sharing with cars, tractors, horses and bikes.
I rode in the very cold, and it was just a question of adjusting the level of assist to keep burning calories, and having a big ass battery means you can have heated grips and handlebar hoods for the whole trip. And if you run out of battery, you can divert some of your effort to keep the heater and lights running.
I also rode in the heat, and the biggest advantage is that I could cheat on the uphills to avoid overheating and set the assist to 0 on the downhills and cool down.
In my everyday non electric bike I regularly do a constant 35-40 kph on the flats depending on the wind and weather. My sister’s bikes are limited to 30 kph, once you go over that you lose the assist, but you can use muscle power to go faster.
But what was awesome, as in making me feel awed, are the electric assist cross country and downhill mountain bikes. They are optimized for torque, not speed, so they make the uphill a lot easier and the flats and downhills not much more dangerous. I felt like a superhero making it to the top of the trail with any energy left at all. Instead of the 2 or 3 runs I could do in a normal bike I managed over 10 runs that day.
I don’t do technical descents, but I saw the doors that are opened by electric assist mountain bikes. My sister’s father in law used to compete in downhill races. He kept the skills but lost the stamina to make it up the hill. He was limited to trailheads with road access or lift service . Now with his fancy electric assist downhill bike he is part of a group of old bikers that ride every week, and before covid he was winning regional races in the over 65 year old category..
In conclusion, I am all for electric bikes for everyone, as long as they are speed limited light frames . Treat an ebiker going 60 kph on a bike trail the same way you treat a driver going 160kph on a residential street.
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:08 AM on January 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
I don’t enjoy the ones that are like a moped, I’d rather ride a proper electric motorcycle. But pedal assist is awesome. For daily chores and commuting you can set a comfortable level of assist to get in your daily exercise, get the heart pumping, but you can also carry 3 kids and 50 pounds of groceries on a long cargo bike with the same effort as a leisurely solo ride. And that is what we did every day.
You can also do looooong rides with a group of mixed fitness and everyone enjoys it. Pedal assist ebikes allowed the whole faintly to go on a 60 mile roundtrip to have a picnic by a lake, riding dirt roads between vineyards.
This is in northern Italy, and at least where my sister lives, there is enough urban and suburban infrastructure for safe an efficient biking, and once outside city limits enough open dirt roads that people are used to sharing with cars, tractors, horses and bikes.
I rode in the very cold, and it was just a question of adjusting the level of assist to keep burning calories, and having a big ass battery means you can have heated grips and handlebar hoods for the whole trip. And if you run out of battery, you can divert some of your effort to keep the heater and lights running.
I also rode in the heat, and the biggest advantage is that I could cheat on the uphills to avoid overheating and set the assist to 0 on the downhills and cool down.
In my everyday non electric bike I regularly do a constant 35-40 kph on the flats depending on the wind and weather. My sister’s bikes are limited to 30 kph, once you go over that you lose the assist, but you can use muscle power to go faster.
But what was awesome, as in making me feel awed, are the electric assist cross country and downhill mountain bikes. They are optimized for torque, not speed, so they make the uphill a lot easier and the flats and downhills not much more dangerous. I felt like a superhero making it to the top of the trail with any energy left at all. Instead of the 2 or 3 runs I could do in a normal bike I managed over 10 runs that day.
I don’t do technical descents, but I saw the doors that are opened by electric assist mountain bikes. My sister’s father in law used to compete in downhill races. He kept the skills but lost the stamina to make it up the hill. He was limited to trailheads with road access or lift service . Now with his fancy electric assist downhill bike he is part of a group of old bikers that ride every week, and before covid he was winning regional races in the over 65 year old category..
In conclusion, I am all for electric bikes for everyone, as long as they are speed limited light frames . Treat an ebiker going 60 kph on a bike trail the same way you treat a driver going 160kph on a residential street.
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:08 AM on January 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
Got a Propella e-bike (Type 1 pedal assist) this past summer after trading in a road bike that I loved in theory but wasn't using for all sorts of practical reasons. I ride constantly now, and rode until late December in Philly. (We had a warm December, but still.) I'm in Florida for a few weeks and brought the bike with me, riding constantly here as well despite much more hostile road conditions. The e-bike is an absolute game changer for my riding experience, and in warmer weather had become my go-to option for solo trips under 5 miles. I'm in love, and I'm trying not to be a jackass or a trail hog.
posted by sockshaveholes at 11:59 AM on January 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by sockshaveholes at 11:59 AM on January 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
My 14yo got himself a low-end ebike and really likes it. What he likes even better is dog-joring, where he is pulled along by his dog in a fancy harness. He does dog-jouring with his bike, with a skateboard, with a scooter, and he really wanted to try cross-country skiing this year but we haven't gotten enough snow this winter to make it possible.
That's a derail, I know. But dog-jouring to the grocery store appeals to me. And the dog-jorers who are going to become a fad at some point will also need better infrastructure for safety.
posted by Well I never at 12:36 PM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
That's a derail, I know. But dog-jouring to the grocery store appeals to me. And the dog-jorers who are going to become a fad at some point will also need better infrastructure for safety.
posted by Well I never at 12:36 PM on January 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
MeFi has become the sort of place where many people find it easier to imagine the imminent end of capitalism than a modest reduction of vehicle miles traveled in major American cities.
Just to add another anecdote here, my exertion on an e-bike ride, as measured with a heart rate monitor, ranges somewhere between brisk walk and "quite serious exercise" depending on assist level, hilliness, and speed. Even cruising along on the flats with the power up, that's still meaningful physical activity, certainly compared to driving. And what I've found is that I can ride much, much farther as a result if I'm in it for recreation and exercise: instead of hitting one big hill and wearing myself out, I can keep my heart rate just an ideal level, like I'm spinning the knob on a spin bike, and have the energy to keep going, which means a lot more exercise in total. Or if I just want to get up the big hill near home to pickup some takeout, I can do that too.
I am enormously pro-e-bike because they’re the best way to grow the coalition of people asking the city for less car-centric infrastructure.
This is the whole game. A parent with their kids on the back of a cargo bike demanding safer streets pushes the "this person would like to talk to the manager" button for elected officials in a way that, unfortunately and this is not ok, delivery workers and low-income cyclists do not. And that's a problem in that cycling and bike advocacy already have significant race and class problems—there are some interesting new ideas to try to address that like the non-profit run e-bike "library" launching soon in Oakland, California (want to be an e-bike librarian? they're hiring)—and also a real opportunity to build a broad coalition to fight for multi-modal safer streets.
posted by zachlipton at 1:38 PM on January 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
Just to add another anecdote here, my exertion on an e-bike ride, as measured with a heart rate monitor, ranges somewhere between brisk walk and "quite serious exercise" depending on assist level, hilliness, and speed. Even cruising along on the flats with the power up, that's still meaningful physical activity, certainly compared to driving. And what I've found is that I can ride much, much farther as a result if I'm in it for recreation and exercise: instead of hitting one big hill and wearing myself out, I can keep my heart rate just an ideal level, like I'm spinning the knob on a spin bike, and have the energy to keep going, which means a lot more exercise in total. Or if I just want to get up the big hill near home to pickup some takeout, I can do that too.
I am enormously pro-e-bike because they’re the best way to grow the coalition of people asking the city for less car-centric infrastructure.
This is the whole game. A parent with their kids on the back of a cargo bike demanding safer streets pushes the "this person would like to talk to the manager" button for elected officials in a way that, unfortunately and this is not ok, delivery workers and low-income cyclists do not. And that's a problem in that cycling and bike advocacy already have significant race and class problems—there are some interesting new ideas to try to address that like the non-profit run e-bike "library" launching soon in Oakland, California (want to be an e-bike librarian? they're hiring)—and also a real opportunity to build a broad coalition to fight for multi-modal safer streets.
posted by zachlipton at 1:38 PM on January 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
I am very much anti-outdoor, I don't even much like walking outside. I know a bike would help me and my kid with our shorter trips but we live in a really hilly suburb, and I have an intractable lack of cartilage in one knee. So I've never even tried.
Over Christmas my sister got me to try her ebike. My meta has one as well, and the biggest issue for the commute is sections where you can't ride and it's too heavy. But I'm leaning towards one now - with a little cargo thing I could pick up groceries, we could get to the busway much easier (albeit where to store the bike is an issue). Safety wise there are bike paths in my suburb.
The ebike solves a lot of cycling problems I have - and the onnes it creates are often individual vs systemic. Someone choosing to speed on the paths is choosing that, and they do it with feet only now.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:31 PM on January 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
Over Christmas my sister got me to try her ebike. My meta has one as well, and the biggest issue for the commute is sections where you can't ride and it's too heavy. But I'm leaning towards one now - with a little cargo thing I could pick up groceries, we could get to the busway much easier (albeit where to store the bike is an issue). Safety wise there are bike paths in my suburb.
The ebike solves a lot of cycling problems I have - and the onnes it creates are often individual vs systemic. Someone choosing to speed on the paths is choosing that, and they do it with feet only now.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:31 PM on January 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
Slightly off the topic, but one thing I'm excited about are the advances being made in electric dirt bikes. I'm not going to comment on safety, the ones I'm interersted in are to replace a standard gas-powered dirtbike, and they're meant to be used on the same trails you'd go on a gas powered bike with.
But they have potentially equal or more torque, and they're almost silent. I love dirtbikes but one major problem is that they are very loud and obnoxious. I am dreaming of the day I can cruise through the woods quietly, not burning carbon, with zero emissions.
Here's an example of what the latest and greatest (due to be released in 2023) looks like. Several firms have electric dirtbikes on offer now, but none compare in power and features like the one I linked.
posted by chaz at 5:03 PM on January 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
But they have potentially equal or more torque, and they're almost silent. I love dirtbikes but one major problem is that they are very loud and obnoxious. I am dreaming of the day I can cruise through the woods quietly, not burning carbon, with zero emissions.
Here's an example of what the latest and greatest (due to be released in 2023) looks like. Several firms have electric dirtbikes on offer now, but none compare in power and features like the one I linked.
posted by chaz at 5:03 PM on January 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Do people who buy e-bikes cycle more?
Highlightsposted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:10 PM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
• People who buy an e-bike more than double their use of bicycle for transport.
• Trial schemes and data from people who purchase an e-bike provide the same results.
• Studies without control groups may wrongly attribute seasonal mode share changes to e-bikes.
« Older Palestine underground: A new face for local radio | Shockwave Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by rongorongo at 12:29 PM on January 22, 2022 [2 favorites]