the presumptuous romantic intentions (PRI) scale
February 5, 2022 2:23 PM Subscribe
The Grey Areas of Romance: A Measure of Presumptuous Romantic Intentions attempts to quantify the likelihood of jerkiness (and more dangerous behaviors) in dating based on self-reported, planned behavior.
This link will take you to a page that has it in a pdf viewer (although I assume your browser is still “downloading” it, if you’re really adamantly anti-pdf-downloading)
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:46 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:46 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
In Safari the link doesn't show you what kind of file it is at all, so. mod may want to change that link.
posted by jonathanhughes at 3:11 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jonathanhughes at 3:11 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
The topic sounds interesting but I'm not gonna invest in reading an entire academic article when the abstract starts off by talking about "air"ing on the side of caution. Somebody needs to revise this draft before sharing it with the world.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 3:16 PM on February 5, 2022 [48 favorites]
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 3:16 PM on February 5, 2022 [48 favorites]
That is what psyarxiv is for, though. These are papers that are pre-any-sort-of-editing.
posted by Scattercat at 3:31 PM on February 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Scattercat at 3:31 PM on February 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
yeah, pdf warning is convention around here.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:32 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by j_curiouser at 3:32 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
That is what psyarxiv is for, though. These are papers that are pre-any-sort-of-editing.
What?! The original math/physics/cs arxiv is not peer reviewed, but the cultural standard is that you need to at least post a final draft, something that could be accepted by a reputable journal. And more often than not (at least in my little sub-field) the papers posted have also been published in a peer reviewed journal.
posted by eviemath at 3:50 PM on February 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
What?! The original math/physics/cs arxiv is not peer reviewed, but the cultural standard is that you need to at least post a final draft, something that could be accepted by a reputable journal. And more often than not (at least in my little sub-field) the papers posted have also been published in a peer reviewed journal.
posted by eviemath at 3:50 PM on February 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
Here's a quick grab of what I though interesting. Offered context-free and unformatted.
Table 2. Study 1 Training Set, PRI item loadings and descriptive statisticsposted by achrise at 4:05 PM on February 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
Item F1 F2 F3 Mean (SD)
(F1) Conspicuous
1. Send them cards or letters without telling them* 0.83 -0.12 0.03 3.20 (1.92)
2. Send them lots of gifts 0.69 -0.03 0.10 2.95 (1.74)
3. Surprise them by showing up unannounced* 0.68 0.02 0.14 3.28 (1.83)
4. Show up before or after they get off work 0.65 -0.02 -0.04 4.43 (1.87)
5. Show up before/after their social activities* 0.54 0.38 -0.14 3.36 (1.98)
(F2) Insecure
1. Ask them about their relationships with other people* -0.09 0.76 0.21 3.68 (1.87)
2. Watch them from a distance -0.09 0.75 -0.08 2.71 (2.00)
3.
Check up on them through mutual
acquaintances/friends 0.05 0.70 -0.15 3.76 (1.95)
4. Go through their private things 0.14 0.42 0.07 1.86 (1.37)
(F3) Crude
1. Send explicit images to them 0.07 -0.19 0.77 2.62 (1.90)
2. Touch them in an intimate way* 0.14 0.13 0.60 3.83 (2.19)
3. Describe sex acts to them 0.11 0.07 0.60 2.56 (1.75)
4. Use profanity and/or obscenities when talking to them -0.22 0.16 0.57 3.26 (2.04)
Mod note: Updated the link; best to avoid kicking off direct downloads in links in posts in general.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:37 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:37 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
PDF: Presumptive Document Format
posted by Mister Moofoo at 4:38 PM on February 5, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by Mister Moofoo at 4:38 PM on February 5, 2022 [16 favorites]
As a cis-het man, I'd be interested to hear opinions on this:
If the man wants to initiate the first kiss, should he ask for consent first?
Assume the two people are getting along well (so the woman is not sending out clearly negative signals), and it's not the first date (i.e., both people like each other enough to have more than one date). And assume that if the woman reacts in any way to avoid or resist the kiss, the man will immediately pick up on it and stop. (Obviously that doesn't always happen, but let's consider the case of two people with decent levels of emotional intelligence and respect.)
I've heard women go both ways on this. Asking is obviously the safer thing to do, but a lot of women have told me they think it kills the magic of the moment.
posted by mikeand1 at 4:43 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
If the man wants to initiate the first kiss, should he ask for consent first?
Assume the two people are getting along well (so the woman is not sending out clearly negative signals), and it's not the first date (i.e., both people like each other enough to have more than one date). And assume that if the woman reacts in any way to avoid or resist the kiss, the man will immediately pick up on it and stop. (Obviously that doesn't always happen, but let's consider the case of two people with decent levels of emotional intelligence and respect.)
I've heard women go both ways on this. Asking is obviously the safer thing to do, but a lot of women have told me they think it kills the magic of the moment.
posted by mikeand1 at 4:43 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sounds interesting, but
posted by ctmf at 5:04 PM on February 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
AbstractOuch. Low-expectation mode engaged before I even start reading.
To capture the attention of a romantic partner requires thoughtful selection of effective pursuit strategies. Sometimes these strategies air on the side of caution,
posted by ctmf at 5:04 PM on February 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
Asking is obviously the safer thing to do, but a lot of women have told me they think it kills the magic of the moment.
I think this is incredibly complicated, honestly, because if there's one thing I've learned from dating, it's that there's a lot of men who can't read nearly the amount of signals they think they can, which is why I'm deeply interested in this paper! Thanks OP for posting this. That categorization in the paper, of bold vs creepy being dependent on the reciprocation, is so spot on.
posted by corb at 5:14 PM on February 5, 2022 [20 favorites]
I think this is incredibly complicated, honestly, because if there's one thing I've learned from dating, it's that there's a lot of men who can't read nearly the amount of signals they think they can, which is why I'm deeply interested in this paper! Thanks OP for posting this. That categorization in the paper, of bold vs creepy being dependent on the reciprocation, is so spot on.
posted by corb at 5:14 PM on February 5, 2022 [20 favorites]
Per Flock of Cynthiabirds, someone please take the author's efforts in good faith (ignoring all their "airs,") and please tldr for us.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:26 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:26 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
i have been accidentally creepy without knowing it. I'm grateful to the woman that pointed it out.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:43 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 5:43 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
This paper is co-authored by a real live princess!! 👑
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:45 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:45 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Uh, wow.
English legitimately likely isn't her first language?
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:49 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
English legitimately likely isn't her first language?
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:49 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
I've reviewed manuscripts that were submitted for publication that had much worse grammatical/spelling errors than writing "air" instead of "err."
posted by biogeo at 6:00 PM on February 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 6:00 PM on February 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
there's a lot of men who can't read nearly the amount of signals they think they can
I absolutely believe you.
I never kissed a woman who didn't want me to, as nearly as I can tell, but it's very hard to tell this difference between "I wish this guy would kiss me" and "I wish this guy would kiss me but I want him to ask me first."
The other thing is that some people are really bad at giving off signals, or they simply give off the wrong signals without knowing it. That's true regardless of gender.
posted by mikeand1 at 6:15 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I absolutely believe you.
I never kissed a woman who didn't want me to, as nearly as I can tell, but it's very hard to tell this difference between "I wish this guy would kiss me" and "I wish this guy would kiss me but I want him to ask me first."
The other thing is that some people are really bad at giving off signals, or they simply give off the wrong signals without knowing it. That's true regardless of gender.
posted by mikeand1 at 6:15 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
"I'd really like to kiss you" is a very sexy and sweet thing to say, it doesn't interrupt the moment. You don't have to say "Do I have your consent to engage in kissing" like a robot, you know.* Put enough passion/heat in it, and if she (or he)'s interested, you'll be fine.
Goes for a lot of other things, too. It's really not that hard.
*unless she's into that
posted by emjaybee at 6:37 PM on February 5, 2022 [43 favorites]
Goes for a lot of other things, too. It's really not that hard.
*unless she's into that
posted by emjaybee at 6:37 PM on February 5, 2022 [43 favorites]
There could be a whole playbook of things to say that can be sexy and not break the moment. I'm a fan of "what would you like to happen next?" because it's open-ended.
posted by allegedly at 6:56 PM on February 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by allegedly at 6:56 PM on February 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
please tldr for us.
Okay; blockquotes are directly (and effortfully!) copy-pasted from the pdf.
Their summary of existing work says there's a lot of research on what courting people (mostly men) are attracted to, and a lot of research on exactly what behaviors were reported by victims that preceded stalking and other threatening bad!pursuit, but not a lot of research on the middle ground of what not-intending-to-be-stalkers planned to do or thought they were doing.
A "measure" in this sense seems to be a questionnaire with a scalar result (a single number) that has both useful and stable results: if you ask the same person a couple times a quarter, they get about the same score, and over a population the scores correlate with something you can't measure with a survey. (Yesno? social scientists plz halp.)
They find (AIUI) that there is a stable single score of presumptuousness, which doesn't change with coupled status and doesn't depend on M-F gender, but it's not enough by itself to predict behavior. With subfactors "conspicuousness, insecurity, and crudeness" they have a much better chance of predicting behavior. Then lists of things that they thought might correlate with/be a different framing of presumptuousness, and things that might be confounding (?) factors, e.g. attachment style; and studies to see how they related to presumptuousness.
posted by clew at 7:02 PM on February 5, 2022 [22 favorites]
Okay; blockquotes are directly (and effortfully!) copy-pasted from the pdf.
Their summary of existing work says there's a lot of research on what courting people (mostly men) are attracted to, and a lot of research on exactly what behaviors were reported by victims that preceded stalking and other threatening bad!pursuit, but not a lot of research on the middle ground of what not-intending-to-be-stalkers planned to do or thought they were doing.
The present research focuses on the grey area between aggressive and quotidian behavior in romantic relationship pursuit. Understanding presumptuous relationship pursuit can contribute to both our understanding of how normative relationship pursuit can go wrong, as well as how there may be everyday origins in violent relationship pursuit (stalking). As a first step, we aim to develop a measure that captures the key features of the presumptuous behaviors pursuers enact. Such a measure may be of interest to those studying relationship pursuit processes, as well as what happens when those processes go awry.Then a summary of (research on) how social norms affect courtship and stalking, and on how well intentions predict behavior.
Development of a reliable and valid measure of self -reported presumptuous romantic intentions may hold important theoretical insights into romantic relationship pursuit, stalking-like behavior, and the context
differentiating the two.
A "measure" in this sense seems to be a questionnaire with a scalar result (a single number) that has both useful and stable results: if you ask the same person a couple times a quarter, they get about the same score, and over a population the scores correlate with something you can't measure with a survey. (Yesno? social scientists plz halp.)
They find (AIUI) that there is a stable single score of presumptuousness, which doesn't change with coupled status and doesn't depend on M-F gender, but it's not enough by itself to predict behavior. With subfactors "conspicuousness, insecurity, and crudeness" they have a much better chance of predicting behavior. Then lists of things that they thought might correlate with/be a different framing of presumptuousness, and things that might be confounding (?) factors, e.g. attachment style; and studies to see how they related to presumptuousness.
Ultimately, PRI correlates with measures one might expect to, but not so highly as to be conceptuallySee page 43 for a table of the kind of behaviors they asked about.
indistinguishable from related constructs. Cutting across a wide array of domains, these convergent and discriminant associations demonstrate a clear profile of someone who reports higher PRI: on the one hand they are more extraverted, report higher relationship quality, have a stronger need to belong, are the type of person one might call “a romantic,” report being committed to pursuing their relationships, and tend to be more
behaviorally active. Yet on the other hand, they are more neurotic, report more entitlement (both sexually and in general), report have worse self-control, engaged in more possessive romantic tactics, have greater impulsivity, show reduced empathy, and more Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and narcissism.
posted by clew at 7:02 PM on February 5, 2022 [22 favorites]
If the man wants to initiate the first kiss, should he ask for consent first?
I'm married now, but I dated a lot before that, and I was always okay with either scenario, him asking first or him just leaning in for the kiss, as long as he was a person who would (like you) stop when I indicated. I agree that sometimes it could kill the magic, but on the other hand, my now-husband just went for it, and he was a person I stopped because it felt too soon. But everyone is different! If you have found yourself to be a good judge of this in the past, you probably will be in the future.
posted by Knowyournuts at 7:09 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm married now, but I dated a lot before that, and I was always okay with either scenario, him asking first or him just leaning in for the kiss, as long as he was a person who would (like you) stop when I indicated. I agree that sometimes it could kill the magic, but on the other hand, my now-husband just went for it, and he was a person I stopped because it felt too soon. But everyone is different! If you have found yourself to be a good judge of this in the past, you probably will be in the future.
posted by Knowyournuts at 7:09 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Exact quote: "Sometimes these strategies air on the side of caution" ... personally I love it, it captures the essence of the issue. Don't change love researchers.
posted by sammyo at 7:09 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 7:09 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
But yeah, let's quantify everything, the better to enable an embedded AI to send a quick jolt to remind the potential kisser that it's exceeding the currently legislated quanta of intimacy, no better, an automated release from the implanted capsule containing a hormone suppressant.
posted by sammyo at 7:14 PM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 7:14 PM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Relevant Huxley curveball^
..that's one of my favorite comments in the thread.
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:19 PM on February 5, 2022
..that's one of my favorite comments in the thread.
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:19 PM on February 5, 2022
There could be a whole playbook of things to say that can be sexy and not break the moment. I'm a fan of "what would you like to happen next?" because it's open-ended.
I agree, and this is usually my approach. I have met, however, more than a few women who really just wanted to be kissed without any kind of talking about it. I'm not saying anything shocking here, but many women find assertive men attractive.
For that matter, some men find assertive women attractive. The first time I met my exwife in person, she literally grabbed my head and kissed me without any warning. I thought it was hot.
posted by mikeand1 at 7:23 PM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
I agree, and this is usually my approach. I have met, however, more than a few women who really just wanted to be kissed without any kind of talking about it. I'm not saying anything shocking here, but many women find assertive men attractive.
For that matter, some men find assertive women attractive. The first time I met my exwife in person, she literally grabbed my head and kissed me without any warning. I thought it was hot.
posted by mikeand1 at 7:23 PM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Quantify romance? Every relationship is different--way too many variables to identify, let alone quantify. Conspicuous, Insecure, Crude? Seems to me, all of us experience varieties of each category at one time or another, and what is welcome behavior in one relationship may be not welcome in another relationship. I think maybe writing about love is best left to the poets. We each make our way through experience, not through reading attempts at quantification which fall far, far short.
posted by ragtimepiano at 7:24 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by ragtimepiano at 7:24 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
"-to enable an embedded AI to send a quick jolt to remind.." Yeah, let's please not..
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:41 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:41 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Can I kiss you?" is sweet and sexy and folks that say it ruins the magic of the moment ... on the one hand, are allowed their preferences... and on the other hand, are kind of not helping. No one's a mind reader. We need humanity to hop on board the Enthusiastic Consent train. Choo choo, hop on. /signed, a woman
posted by pelvicsorcery at 8:21 PM on February 5, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by pelvicsorcery at 8:21 PM on February 5, 2022 [29 favorites]
Can we refrain from turning this whole thread into men asking women for free on-demand customized dating advice because oH mY gOsH cOnSeNt is SO MyStErIoUS?!
Be willing to stick your neck out so she knows you’re not the kind of guy who goes ballistic when he gets rejected. Be observant, like we’ve been expected to be all our lives.
If you move in for the kiss and she flinches, she doesn’t want to kiss you. Spend a couple minutes calibrating your situational awareness. Look at what’s actually happening instead of what you think you “deserve” to see.
95% of what guys call “mixed signals” is repulsion/apathy with a side of fear that you’ll hurt her if she says no. Look for enthusiasm. If you don’t know how to recognize enthusiasm, that is not her problem to solve for you.
posted by armeowda at 8:33 PM on February 5, 2022 [51 favorites]
Be willing to stick your neck out so she knows you’re not the kind of guy who goes ballistic when he gets rejected. Be observant, like we’ve been expected to be all our lives.
If you move in for the kiss and she flinches, she doesn’t want to kiss you. Spend a couple minutes calibrating your situational awareness. Look at what’s actually happening instead of what you think you “deserve” to see.
95% of what guys call “mixed signals” is repulsion/apathy with a side of fear that you’ll hurt her if she says no. Look for enthusiasm. If you don’t know how to recognize enthusiasm, that is not her problem to solve for you.
posted by armeowda at 8:33 PM on February 5, 2022 [51 favorites]
mikeand1, sounds like you're pretty happy with whatever you have going on, but if you genuinely have a question, you can post it on the Green, or you could browse through the years of romantic advice that has accumulated over the years. If you do go for the second option, you'll see that Askers have been told to use their words AND been told to just go for it, often in response to the same question.
posted by betweenthebars at 8:39 PM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 8:39 PM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not looking for advice; I'm in a committed relationship.
I just think it's an interesting area. People can express and establish consent in a large variety of ways. I like to hear what peoples' views on it are. It is in fact a fairly complicated aspect of human behavior, and I think it does it a disservice to try to reduce it to something simple.
posted by mikeand1 at 11:18 PM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
I just think it's an interesting area. People can express and establish consent in a large variety of ways. I like to hear what peoples' views on it are. It is in fact a fairly complicated aspect of human behavior, and I think it does it a disservice to try to reduce it to something simple.
posted by mikeand1 at 11:18 PM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Please please please stop turning this thread into "~wOmEN aRe So cOnFuSiNg hElP tHe pOoR hElPlEsS mEN tO uNdErSTaNd fEeEeEeeEmAlEs~".
Like, I don't even know what this paper is saying, I'm only 10 pages in. There's some people who are helpfully providing tl;drs upthread but I still don't understand what the results were and what these numbers mean. Most people who are coming in here are hoping for discussion of the paper that was posted, and we haven't had a chance to get into it yet. So stop trying to divert us into your unrelated questions, pretty please? You are welcome to create your own FPP. Be respectful. You don't get to hijack any old thread to talk about your unrelated personal pet peeves - at least not until we've had a chance to actually discuss what's been posted.
posted by MiraK at 4:57 AM on February 6, 2022 [21 favorites]
Like, I don't even know what this paper is saying, I'm only 10 pages in. There's some people who are helpfully providing tl;drs upthread but I still don't understand what the results were and what these numbers mean. Most people who are coming in here are hoping for discussion of the paper that was posted, and we haven't had a chance to get into it yet. So stop trying to divert us into your unrelated questions, pretty please? You are welcome to create your own FPP. Be respectful. You don't get to hijack any old thread to talk about your unrelated personal pet peeves - at least not until we've had a chance to actually discuss what's been posted.
posted by MiraK at 4:57 AM on February 6, 2022 [21 favorites]
MiraK: The paper suggests outlines for assessing risk in partnering/dating situations, then apparently goes on to try to offer information on calculating those risks in a hyper-detailed way (if I'm not mistaken and that isn't an obvious part for you.)
I'm not necessarily opposed, I don't think it's a referral I'd use. One of the authors appears to be an educator/figure in psyche, working in Germany/NY. Her work isn't my first choice of interest, but it's certainly not bad. ("Gabriele of Oettingen-Oettingen" or Princess Gabriele, evidently)
Agree with above. "A lot of women," calculate risk and will not express interest until certain points feel met. Many people feel they don't have any more area/margin for error, time is usually always a concern.. etc. Some people are planning for children or careers and will not act until they feel the situation is really within best interests, yada yada..
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:14 AM on February 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm not necessarily opposed, I don't think it's a referral I'd use. One of the authors appears to be an educator/figure in psyche, working in Germany/NY. Her work isn't my first choice of interest, but it's certainly not bad. ("Gabriele of Oettingen-Oettingen" or Princess Gabriele, evidently)
Agree with above. "A lot of women," calculate risk and will not express interest until certain points feel met. Many people feel they don't have any more area/margin for error, time is usually always a concern.. etc. Some people are planning for children or careers and will not act until they feel the situation is really within best interests, yada yada..
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:14 AM on February 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
or Princess Gabriele, evidently
Looking forward to a follow up on enchanted frogs.
posted by condour75 at 5:24 AM on February 6, 2022
Looking forward to a follow up on enchanted frogs.
posted by condour75 at 5:24 AM on February 6, 2022
I suspect MiraK was trying to politely say RTFA rather than getting 'splained about the article.
posted by ambrosen at 5:25 AM on February 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 5:25 AM on February 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
From the perspective of a woman who has dated men, initiating the kiss myself with a man who is attracted to me has proved to be a pretty good screener for whether he's going to be shitty about the role of men vs women in relationships. It helps that I just also present less of a threat than a man does to a woman (which is part of the reason the study exists).
There is a reproducibility crisis in science, particularly in psychology, so I definitely think something that has not gone through peer review should be taken with a grain of salt.
posted by Anonymous at 5:37 AM on February 6, 2022
There is a reproducibility crisis in science, particularly in psychology, so I definitely think something that has not gone through peer review should be taken with a grain of salt.
posted by Anonymous at 5:37 AM on February 6, 2022
In Sum
The formation and maintenance of a romantic relationship is a complex self-regulatory
challenge: deciding how and when to develop closeness and proximity requires careful planning
and thoughtful execution.
I mean, Mark Zuckerberg probably thinks that way too
In all seriousness, I find this sort of research mildly infuriating in how uncritical and reductive scientists go about trying to figure out something.
posted by polymodus at 5:49 AM on February 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
The formation and maintenance of a romantic relationship is a complex self-regulatory
challenge: deciding how and when to develop closeness and proximity requires careful planning
and thoughtful execution.
I mean, Mark Zuckerberg probably thinks that way too
In all seriousness, I find this sort of research mildly infuriating in how uncritical and reductive scientists go about trying to figure out something.
posted by polymodus at 5:49 AM on February 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
People can express and establish consent in a large variety of ways
Indeed. For example, armeowda and MiraK have been very overt in expressing a lack of consent to your turning this thread into a treatise on your dating life. Betweenthebars has been more subtle, politely suggesting you post your questions in a separate thread.
Myself, I'm inclined to cursing and shaking my fist.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 5:58 AM on February 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Indeed. For example, armeowda and MiraK have been very overt in expressing a lack of consent to your turning this thread into a treatise on your dating life. Betweenthebars has been more subtle, politely suggesting you post your questions in a separate thread.
Myself, I'm inclined to cursing and shaking my fist.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 5:58 AM on February 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm dreading getting back in the dating scene. Anybody want to be my hero and just arrange a marriage for me?
posted by Jacen at 6:30 AM on February 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 6:30 AM on February 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Hard for me to swallow my kneejerk reaction (to most psych papers, I confess) that they're just trying to cram something that is very unscientific into a science-y framework by dressing up "we gave a bunch of college students surveys" in a lot of dense academic jargon, but once I got past that I'm still left feeling like either this paper is either a pretty shallow analysis of their results, or else this paper is relying on me to have read a bunch of the other studies they're referencing, to get that depth. (Anybody more familiar with this stuff want to explain what "submissive compassion" is, as opposed to, I guess, normal compassion?)
But I mean, stuff like this (p. 26):
Importantly, we found PRI to be correlated with sexual narcissism, perceived relationship quality, commitment to pursuing a relationship, and mate retention behaviors.
There's a *lot* to unpack in that sentence. Especially the "perceived relationship quality" - they note that a lot of past studies around this sort of behavior have only gotten reporting from the folks on the receiving end, but here they're doing the opposite, only getting reports from the presumptuous. Do their romantic partners also report higher perceived relationship quality? They found a link between insecurity and these kinds of presumptuous behaviors, but I'm pretty sure the common wisdom is that somebody who's insecure about their relationship can't fix that with these sorts of behavior. Are they less insecure after they've made some kind of elaborate, presumptuous relationship gesture? "Does this sort of presumptuous behavior actually work, resulting in higher quality relationships and/or lower insecurity?" seems to me like kind of a big question to just not even really look into or show any major curiosity about, but here we are.
posted by mstokes650 at 8:46 AM on February 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
But I mean, stuff like this (p. 26):
Importantly, we found PRI to be correlated with sexual narcissism, perceived relationship quality, commitment to pursuing a relationship, and mate retention behaviors.
There's a *lot* to unpack in that sentence. Especially the "perceived relationship quality" - they note that a lot of past studies around this sort of behavior have only gotten reporting from the folks on the receiving end, but here they're doing the opposite, only getting reports from the presumptuous. Do their romantic partners also report higher perceived relationship quality? They found a link between insecurity and these kinds of presumptuous behaviors, but I'm pretty sure the common wisdom is that somebody who's insecure about their relationship can't fix that with these sorts of behavior. Are they less insecure after they've made some kind of elaborate, presumptuous relationship gesture? "Does this sort of presumptuous behavior actually work, resulting in higher quality relationships and/or lower insecurity?" seems to me like kind of a big question to just not even really look into or show any major curiosity about, but here we are.
posted by mstokes650 at 8:46 AM on February 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Please please please stop turning this thread into "~wOmEN aRe So cOnFuSiNg hElP tHe pOoR hElPlEsS mEN tO uNdErSTaNd fEeEeEeeEmAlEs~".
People can express and establish consent in a large variety of ways
Indeed. For example, armeowda and MiraK have been very overt in expressing a lack of consent to your turning this thread into a treatise on your dating life. Betweenthebars has been more subtle, politely suggesting you post your questions in a separate thread.
Myself, I'm inclined to cursing and shaking my fist.
----
I've read all of this several times, and I don't think that is what Mikeand1 is doing. Enough so that I'm commenting on it. If it matters, I'm a woman. I think these are just his data points re the subject of this thread.
posted by marimeko at 8:48 AM on February 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
People can express and establish consent in a large variety of ways
Indeed. For example, armeowda and MiraK have been very overt in expressing a lack of consent to your turning this thread into a treatise on your dating life. Betweenthebars has been more subtle, politely suggesting you post your questions in a separate thread.
Myself, I'm inclined to cursing and shaking my fist.
----
I've read all of this several times, and I don't think that is what Mikeand1 is doing. Enough so that I'm commenting on it. If it matters, I'm a woman. I think these are just his data points re the subject of this thread.
posted by marimeko at 8:48 AM on February 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
The thing is, a lot of women still expect (or perhaps need) the man to take the initiative romantically. Not all women--but a lot--want the man to pursue them first.
I do think culturally women frequently get fed the message that if a guy isn't initiating, he isn't interested. Like if the woman asks, he might say yes, but not because he particularly cares one way or the other if you do, he's just "being nice," etc. (And much as I hate to admit it, yeah, this was my experience with asking someone out a few months ago. Might have been the case with the previous fellow I asked out as well, but I think that one got more interested later on.) Like the guy has to prove his love before it's safe for you to share yours. Which....yeah. There's no way in hell I'd say "I love you" first to a dude because we learn from other ladies that they'll run screaming if you care first/more. My mom told her boyfriend she loved him in high school and he ran away, never to speak to her again until she got engaged to someone else. (Yeah, that guy wasn't the best.) I got raised on that kind of thing, obviously.
That's not everybody, of course, but it does seem to be in the minority. Bold ladies + shy dudes probably have the lady initiating work better than in other cases.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:52 AM on February 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I do think culturally women frequently get fed the message that if a guy isn't initiating, he isn't interested. Like if the woman asks, he might say yes, but not because he particularly cares one way or the other if you do, he's just "being nice," etc. (And much as I hate to admit it, yeah, this was my experience with asking someone out a few months ago. Might have been the case with the previous fellow I asked out as well, but I think that one got more interested later on.) Like the guy has to prove his love before it's safe for you to share yours. Which....yeah. There's no way in hell I'd say "I love you" first to a dude because we learn from other ladies that they'll run screaming if you care first/more. My mom told her boyfriend she loved him in high school and he ran away, never to speak to her again until she got engaged to someone else. (Yeah, that guy wasn't the best.) I got raised on that kind of thing, obviously.
That's not everybody, of course, but it does seem to be in the minority. Bold ladies + shy dudes probably have the lady initiating work better than in other cases.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:52 AM on February 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ok, the paper:
I actually started reading it right when this thread was first posted. Unfortunately, it's based on nonrandom samples of convenience from psych students at several large universities. That severely limits its scientific value.
Second, it's full of LOLstats. Reporting P-values when your data come from a nonrandom sample of convenience tells me you either don't understand statistics, or you don't care that you're spouting nonsense because that's the norm in your field and you just want to publish papers to advance your career.
And I mean, hooray for using resampling methods to reduce model overfit, but... what is the basis for using resampling methods when there was never any sampling to begin with??
I'm inclined to cursing and shaking my fist! (Or I used to be, until I gave up trying to do anything about it as a social scientist and moved on to more personally meaningful work.)
Even if you think the data are a meaningful representation of some population, the researchers tell us their PRI scale explains less than 15% of the variance in subsequent dating behavior. That strikes me as a pretty useless model.
So yeah, I thought the paper was kind of a waste of time, and I wasn't inclined to try to sort out all the jargon and conceptual discussion. I get a lot more out of anecdotal discussions from people discussing these things using normal vocabulary without LOLstats.
posted by mikeand1 at 9:27 AM on February 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
I actually started reading it right when this thread was first posted. Unfortunately, it's based on nonrandom samples of convenience from psych students at several large universities. That severely limits its scientific value.
Second, it's full of LOLstats. Reporting P-values when your data come from a nonrandom sample of convenience tells me you either don't understand statistics, or you don't care that you're spouting nonsense because that's the norm in your field and you just want to publish papers to advance your career.
And I mean, hooray for using resampling methods to reduce model overfit, but... what is the basis for using resampling methods when there was never any sampling to begin with??
I'm inclined to cursing and shaking my fist! (Or I used to be, until I gave up trying to do anything about it as a social scientist and moved on to more personally meaningful work.)
Even if you think the data are a meaningful representation of some population, the researchers tell us their PRI scale explains less than 15% of the variance in subsequent dating behavior. That strikes me as a pretty useless model.
So yeah, I thought the paper was kind of a waste of time, and I wasn't inclined to try to sort out all the jargon and conceptual discussion. I get a lot more out of anecdotal discussions from people discussing these things using normal vocabulary without LOLstats.
posted by mikeand1 at 9:27 AM on February 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Can we refrain from turning this whole thread into men asking women for free on-demand customized dating advice because oH mY gOsH cOnSeNt is SO MyStErIoUS?!
[…]
Please please please stop turning this thread into "~wOmEN aRe So cOnFuSiNg hElP tHe pOoR hElPlEsS mEN tO uNdErSTaNd fEeEeEeeEmAlEs~".
If you’re feeling compelled to make up comedic cultural quirks to mock your fellow mefite and amplify your bad-faith reading of same, maybe it’s time to flag it and move on?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:40 AM on February 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
[…]
Please please please stop turning this thread into "~wOmEN aRe So cOnFuSiNg hElP tHe pOoR hElPlEsS mEN tO uNdErSTaNd fEeEeEeeEmAlEs~".
If you’re feeling compelled to make up comedic cultural quirks to mock your fellow mefite and amplify your bad-faith reading of same, maybe it’s time to flag it and move on?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:40 AM on February 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
But yeah, let's quantify everything, the better to enable an embedded AI to send a quick jolt to remind the potential kisser that it's exceeding the currently legislated quanta of intimacy, no better, an automated release from the implanted capsule containing a hormone suppressant.
This sounds like a very good idea, and I would like to sign up for it immediately, please.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:08 AM on February 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
This sounds like a very good idea, and I would like to sign up for it immediately, please.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:08 AM on February 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
"I've read all of this several times, and I don't think that is what Mikeand1 is doing." FWIW, I thought this too, but I found it not necessary to move on to voice it.. I didn't believe the person had ill intent based on their experiences.
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:23 PM on February 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:23 PM on February 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Let's put a line under this derail and talk about the article!
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 1:08 PM on February 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 1:08 PM on February 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yes, the article. I have to say I thought it was a work of satire.
At any rate, we should air on the side of caution in these matters because we don't know which way the wind blows.
Um, yeah, I guess that's it for me.
posted by storybored at 5:10 PM on February 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
At any rate, we should air on the side of caution in these matters because we don't know which way the wind blows.
Um, yeah, I guess that's it for me.
posted by storybored at 5:10 PM on February 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I skimmed it and I'm not sure it's not satire. The best kind, where you can't really tell if it is or isn't.
posted by ctmf at 7:19 PM on February 6, 2022
posted by ctmf at 7:19 PM on February 6, 2022
This is just attempting to quantify "red flags" of creepy and stalking behavior and, to me, that not only seems appropriate but much needed.
Whether it's actually quality social science is another matter.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:19 PM on February 6, 2022
Whether it's actually quality social science is another matter.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:19 PM on February 6, 2022
Always best to err on the side of caution when using a common phrase, and check your spelling. I don't know what "airing" on the side of caution is, but if it means farting, I doubt that's a good strategy either...
posted by Chuffy at 11:12 PM on February 6, 2022
posted by Chuffy at 11:12 PM on February 6, 2022
To their credit, I didn't get the sense that the goal was the taxonomy or scale for behavior. That would be incredibly reductive. What they found was that given this scale that they made up that they decided was culturally meaningful, they found correlations between behaviors on the scale to Big-5 personality traits such as narcissism. That's not entirely unreasonable for scientific purposes. But the takeaway shouldn't be, oh, if a person I met did X behavior (and now I'm thinking of a real instance where this happened to me) then they must be a narcissist. That's not how statistics work and that would be a reductive diagnosis.
posted by polymodus at 12:02 AM on February 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 12:02 AM on February 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Huge props to the researchers for posting their pre-registered outcomes, validation datasets, and code!
Note that I am not a measure design person, and have only worked on measure development briefly.
I echo mikeand1's concerns regarding the sampling strategy (it sounds similar to my undergrad, where psych 101-equivalent students had to participate in 3 studies as part of our grade). I am confused why they are looking for a unidimensional factor as explanatory; that confusion is underlined by the "minimal stability" of the general factor (and all sub-factors) noted on page 21.
That's a lot of studies for a measure that isn't reliable with unreliable internal validity, no clear external validity, and unclear use cases. I am not sure what this paper tells us.
posted by quadrilaterals at 9:12 AM on February 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Note that I am not a measure design person, and have only worked on measure development briefly.
I echo mikeand1's concerns regarding the sampling strategy (it sounds similar to my undergrad, where psych 101-equivalent students had to participate in 3 studies as part of our grade). I am confused why they are looking for a unidimensional factor as explanatory; that confusion is underlined by the "minimal stability" of the general factor (and all sub-factors) noted on page 21.
That's a lot of studies for a measure that isn't reliable with unreliable internal validity, no clear external validity, and unclear use cases. I am not sure what this paper tells us.
posted by quadrilaterals at 9:12 AM on February 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by Faint of Butt at 2:36 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]