“We need an online equivalent of Free Range Kids”
February 8, 2022 7:50 PM Subscribe
Cyd Harrell, at wired.com: Intrusive surveillance has become a parental rite of passage in America. But the parental panopticon is not a mark of maturity and responsibility but rather of paranoia, distrust, and devolvement. The Kid Surveillance Complex Locks Parents in a Trap.
A member of an online parenting group I’m in recently confessed that she was tracking her child away at college, without the young adult’s knowledge. It just felt good and alleviated the pain of missing her newly independent kid. The group was uneasy, but split on whether this was a violation. Where would it end? And why don’t we have an offramp?
My wife reads our daughter’s (13) online correspondence (texts, etc.). It’s how we found out about her suicidal ideation last winter and got her the treatment and medication she needed. Parents have always violated the privacy of their minor children in any number of ways, just as kids have always attempted to duck that oversight. Is this something that new?
posted by leotrotsky at 8:12 PM on February 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 8:12 PM on February 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
Not everything is a slippery slope. Just because I do something for my 10 year old does not imply I will do the same when they are 20.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:16 PM on February 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 8:16 PM on February 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
I wonder how this correlates to the parents' financial "room" for surveilling subscriptions.
And I wonder if the companies that track kids also sell whom and what is tracked so that kids are imprinted at least into the social media advertising/marketing database level for the rest of their lives.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 8:21 PM on February 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
And I wonder if the companies that track kids also sell whom and what is tracked so that kids are imprinted at least into the social media advertising/marketing database level for the rest of their lives.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 8:21 PM on February 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just because I do something for my 10 year old does not imply I will do the same when they are 20.
Sincerely glad that your kid is getting help, really, but... when do you stop, and why?
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:51 PM on February 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
Sincerely glad that your kid is getting help, really, but... when do you stop, and why?
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:51 PM on February 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
I'm so grateful that this type of surveillance wasn't possible when I was a teenager and that my mom wasn't the type of parent to even want to do it. I get viscerally angry at the idea.
I needed privacy when I was a teenager. I needed the room to have my own interests and friendships without my mom constantly peering over my shoulder. I had a pretty active online life; I saw some porn that maybe I shouldn't have, but other than that I was okay. I made friends, wrote stories, learned about the world and myself. I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that if I'd been surveilled.
Teenaged me would never have figured out that asexuality was a thing, for example. I would have probably continued to think I was just "frigid" or whatever - and would have been a lot easier for me to be pressured or pressure myself into unwanted sexual activity because I'd think I was messed up for not wanting it.
And my mom was supportive! I didn't come from a conservative household. But I wasn't ready to talk to my mom about it yet.
I have no doubt that some parents have kept their kids out of serious trouble this way. But what's the cost? Keeping kids locked inside protects them from car accidents.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:30 PM on February 8, 2022 [32 favorites]
I needed privacy when I was a teenager. I needed the room to have my own interests and friendships without my mom constantly peering over my shoulder. I had a pretty active online life; I saw some porn that maybe I shouldn't have, but other than that I was okay. I made friends, wrote stories, learned about the world and myself. I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that if I'd been surveilled.
Teenaged me would never have figured out that asexuality was a thing, for example. I would have probably continued to think I was just "frigid" or whatever - and would have been a lot easier for me to be pressured or pressure myself into unwanted sexual activity because I'd think I was messed up for not wanting it.
And my mom was supportive! I didn't come from a conservative household. But I wasn't ready to talk to my mom about it yet.
I have no doubt that some parents have kept their kids out of serious trouble this way. But what's the cost? Keeping kids locked inside protects them from car accidents.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:30 PM on February 8, 2022 [32 favorites]
really, but... when do you stop, and why?
When they find a work around.
Good question perhaps circumstantial evaluation with a third party professional could provide guidance if further measures are needed.
posted by clavdivs at 9:47 PM on February 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
When they find a work around.
Good question perhaps circumstantial evaluation with a third party professional could provide guidance if further measures are needed.
posted by clavdivs at 9:47 PM on February 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
My parents were helicopter parents before that was a term. They were overprotective and very anxious and unwilling to examine whether their concerns/rules/interference were useful. They used the technology available to them at the time to be intrusive well into my college years (this was the 80s and very early 90s, so it was things like requiring a lot of phone check-ins using their calling card.)
From adolescence on, I became very good at lying about my whereabouts in small ways purely on principle to give myself a tiny shred of autonomy. This made me feel a little better, but did not spare me the chore of coping with their projected anxieties. Even now at 48, I cannot trust them with too much info about my ordinary life or feelings on any topic without it potentially becoming some sort of anxiety-fodder. They're good people who mean well, but they're also exhausting and increasingly self-absorbed and of a generation who is unwilling to get the therapy they need.
Kids obviously need a certain amount of supervision from their parents, but y'all, this surveillance slippery slope is a trap that will damage your long-term relationship with your kids. Kids don't ask to be born, they don't owe their parents perfect obedience, and trust and respect needs to be mutual to work. Trust your kids to grow up.
posted by desuetude at 10:05 PM on February 8, 2022 [62 favorites]
From adolescence on, I became very good at lying about my whereabouts in small ways purely on principle to give myself a tiny shred of autonomy. This made me feel a little better, but did not spare me the chore of coping with their projected anxieties. Even now at 48, I cannot trust them with too much info about my ordinary life or feelings on any topic without it potentially becoming some sort of anxiety-fodder. They're good people who mean well, but they're also exhausting and increasingly self-absorbed and of a generation who is unwilling to get the therapy they need.
Kids obviously need a certain amount of supervision from their parents, but y'all, this surveillance slippery slope is a trap that will damage your long-term relationship with your kids. Kids don't ask to be born, they don't owe their parents perfect obedience, and trust and respect needs to be mutual to work. Trust your kids to grow up.
posted by desuetude at 10:05 PM on February 8, 2022 [62 favorites]
This is something that's been on my mind recently, although my kid is currently not using any technology that isn't made by Fisher-Price and equipped with really big, colorful buttons.
But there are a lot of tech-related decisions that you have to make as a parent, and you have to start making them surprisingly early. I watched one of my friends' kids figure out how to use his mom's iPhone to get on YouTube (including swiping away any annoying notifications) before he could talk. It's not super uncommon to see toddlers with iPads or Fire tablets; Amazon even sells a version of the Fire tablet that comes in a hefty plastic case specifically for younger kids. Its stated age range is 3-7 years, but lots of kids are able to use them well before that, if they're available.
It's really sort of amazing that modern devices have UIs that are literally easier to use than a toilet. (Maybe Apple should start reworking the UX there... I know parents who would absolutely pay hard cash for a toilet that was as appealing to use as an iPad.)
I don't really see a huge issue with parental controls on a device aimed at the elementary-school set. It seems to me there are some legitimate issues around what content might be appropriate for a kid in that age range, and you'd want to be able to adjust it accordingly as they mature. Having some degree of configurable parental controls probably means fewer devices bought, too. (I.e., you're not buying one for their kindergarten year, and then having to buy a new one the next year for slightly different content, ad infinitum.)
The existence of a "Kindle Kids", which is basically a Kindle Paperwhite e-reader that's locked down with parental controls, kinda grinds my gears, though. Sure, I guess I can see the need for preventing a kid from running up absurd charges to the family Amazon account (I could have absolutely done some financial damage with Hardy Boys books alone), but there's something about the idea of restricting print material that triggers my Strong Dislike sense. I guess it's just coming from a "if you can reach it, you can read it" sort of household in my own youth, and some lingering feelings that there's a fundamental difference between print and TV/film or interactive games.
My partner and I have some time before we'll need to start thinking hard about general-purpose devices like laptops or cellphones, but I guess when the kid starts to show an interest (which is probably heavily dependent on when other kids start getting them), we'll have to work something out. For some amount of time, that will probably involve my partner and I retaining access to the devices (which we'll probably need for technical help in the near term, anyway), but not using that access without a particularly good reason. Privacy, in all its aspects, is sort of conditional at those ages on not being a total dipshit.
As to the whole "offramp" question, I guess I'm a bit confused there, since it seems like being a parent in general requires a series of "offramps", at least if you're successful in raising an independent person. Isn't that the whole point? I sure as hell hope I still have things going on in my life that are more interesting than constantly tracking a 20-year-old's whereabouts in a couple of decades. If not, it will say a lot more about me than it does about them.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:09 PM on February 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
But there are a lot of tech-related decisions that you have to make as a parent, and you have to start making them surprisingly early. I watched one of my friends' kids figure out how to use his mom's iPhone to get on YouTube (including swiping away any annoying notifications) before he could talk. It's not super uncommon to see toddlers with iPads or Fire tablets; Amazon even sells a version of the Fire tablet that comes in a hefty plastic case specifically for younger kids. Its stated age range is 3-7 years, but lots of kids are able to use them well before that, if they're available.
It's really sort of amazing that modern devices have UIs that are literally easier to use than a toilet. (Maybe Apple should start reworking the UX there... I know parents who would absolutely pay hard cash for a toilet that was as appealing to use as an iPad.)
I don't really see a huge issue with parental controls on a device aimed at the elementary-school set. It seems to me there are some legitimate issues around what content might be appropriate for a kid in that age range, and you'd want to be able to adjust it accordingly as they mature. Having some degree of configurable parental controls probably means fewer devices bought, too. (I.e., you're not buying one for their kindergarten year, and then having to buy a new one the next year for slightly different content, ad infinitum.)
The existence of a "Kindle Kids", which is basically a Kindle Paperwhite e-reader that's locked down with parental controls, kinda grinds my gears, though. Sure, I guess I can see the need for preventing a kid from running up absurd charges to the family Amazon account (I could have absolutely done some financial damage with Hardy Boys books alone), but there's something about the idea of restricting print material that triggers my Strong Dislike sense. I guess it's just coming from a "if you can reach it, you can read it" sort of household in my own youth, and some lingering feelings that there's a fundamental difference between print and TV/film or interactive games.
My partner and I have some time before we'll need to start thinking hard about general-purpose devices like laptops or cellphones, but I guess when the kid starts to show an interest (which is probably heavily dependent on when other kids start getting them), we'll have to work something out. For some amount of time, that will probably involve my partner and I retaining access to the devices (which we'll probably need for technical help in the near term, anyway), but not using that access without a particularly good reason. Privacy, in all its aspects, is sort of conditional at those ages on not being a total dipshit.
As to the whole "offramp" question, I guess I'm a bit confused there, since it seems like being a parent in general requires a series of "offramps", at least if you're successful in raising an independent person. Isn't that the whole point? I sure as hell hope I still have things going on in my life that are more interesting than constantly tracking a 20-year-old's whereabouts in a couple of decades. If not, it will say a lot more about me than it does about them.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:09 PM on February 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
Leotrotsky: I would agree that surveillance of children is very old (thinking of using the one telephone in our house, in full hearing of the rest of the family) but IMO the difference to this kind of automated surveillance of social media is that it eliminates any of the grey-area white lies of adolescence the older of us remember—telling our parents things about our lives that weren't quite true or false, but were uncheckable, and allowed all parties to save embarassment and anxiety.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:15 PM on February 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:15 PM on February 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
Ultimately I think parents really can't win on this one. There are absolutely large numbers of bad actors preying on children online and it's frictionless for kids to make bad decisions that follow them for the rest of their lives. If the tools are out there it does feel borderline negligent not to use them, especially knowing I'll be blamed and shamed if my kid ends up getting radicalized on 4chan or kidnapped by their 35-year-old "boyfriend" who groomed them for months on insta.
I don't know. I work in tech privacy as my literal job but I'm not convinced zero-surveillance is the right call. I guess right now we just don't give our kids a lot of screen time, and as they get older I'm hoping it'll be a collaborative "there's a lot of bad people and ideas out there and we're your training wheels to help you learn to recognize them" process of increasing online and real-world freedom and full disclosure about what we as their parents can access and under what circumstances we'll exercise our ability to access it. But I don't have it in me to judge parents who exercise more control too harshly. These minor children are our responsibility and there's a whole world out there who can communicate with them with a single click.
Like when I was a kid it was like, wow, is a guy really going to come in a white van and go after ME? Of all the kids in this city, me?? Not likely! But that guy can now scale and go after thousands of kids all at once and see who bites. It's a different ballgame, and I can see why parents feel like they have to go pretty hard protecting their kids. I took some dumb risks online as a kid and all those slick user interfaces make bad ideas so much easier now. I laugh to think how hard it would have been to somehow convey a nude to a pervert in 1998. Like I guess I'd have had to snap my nudes on a disposable camera and go get film developed and scanned to a floppy disk and then spend twenty minutes uploading it over dialup. My kids could do it with two clicks on their phone. And kids can be impulsive. I don't know. Am I wrong to find this upsetting and scary? I brush against some of the bad shit on the internet in my line of work. It's not all harmless exploration out there.
If you've got it all figured out, and you're an actual parent of a minor child right now, please memail me and tell me what you're doing that you feel strikes the right balance. Genuinely, I want to know.
Big feels on this one as my oldest has begun more earnestly lobbying us for a phone. It's coming and I don't like it, because I absolutely don't know the right approach any more than any other parent seems to.
posted by potrzebie at 10:18 PM on February 8, 2022 [52 favorites]
I don't know. I work in tech privacy as my literal job but I'm not convinced zero-surveillance is the right call. I guess right now we just don't give our kids a lot of screen time, and as they get older I'm hoping it'll be a collaborative "there's a lot of bad people and ideas out there and we're your training wheels to help you learn to recognize them" process of increasing online and real-world freedom and full disclosure about what we as their parents can access and under what circumstances we'll exercise our ability to access it. But I don't have it in me to judge parents who exercise more control too harshly. These minor children are our responsibility and there's a whole world out there who can communicate with them with a single click.
Like when I was a kid it was like, wow, is a guy really going to come in a white van and go after ME? Of all the kids in this city, me?? Not likely! But that guy can now scale and go after thousands of kids all at once and see who bites. It's a different ballgame, and I can see why parents feel like they have to go pretty hard protecting their kids. I took some dumb risks online as a kid and all those slick user interfaces make bad ideas so much easier now. I laugh to think how hard it would have been to somehow convey a nude to a pervert in 1998. Like I guess I'd have had to snap my nudes on a disposable camera and go get film developed and scanned to a floppy disk and then spend twenty minutes uploading it over dialup. My kids could do it with two clicks on their phone. And kids can be impulsive. I don't know. Am I wrong to find this upsetting and scary? I brush against some of the bad shit on the internet in my line of work. It's not all harmless exploration out there.
If you've got it all figured out, and you're an actual parent of a minor child right now, please memail me and tell me what you're doing that you feel strikes the right balance. Genuinely, I want to know.
Big feels on this one as my oldest has begun more earnestly lobbying us for a phone. It's coming and I don't like it, because I absolutely don't know the right approach any more than any other parent seems to.
posted by potrzebie at 10:18 PM on February 8, 2022 [52 favorites]
As someone from a Christian Fundamentalist background growing up in Purity Culture, with a very abusive parent AND as a very queer and pagan person, there is a fairly good likelihood if I'd been born today, I would have been literally killed.
I definitely could have used some support and guidance on internet stuff because there were definitely some toxic things that I ran into that I'm not very happy about.
This article really doesn't cover what happens when abusive parents track their children, and how very very unsafe that is. It also is so VERY unhelpful that kids of abusive parents who never enter the system aren't eligible for most domestic violence services, safe houses and such, many of these kids are on their own, even though they are controlled in very similar ways as they come into adulthood- including financial control.
I wish apps had to notify the user in the very least that when someone turns 18 (I almost feel this is to old, but its the logical cut off here) that there is active monitoring going on and if they consent for that to continue. In fact for anyone over 18, I think there should be a monthly notification that is like "hey! you have location services shared with XYZ" or "These three computers have logged into your account this month, do you need to change your password, or whatever."
I really wish there were more socially acceptable ways to push back on helicopter parenting. But society is pushing that parents are 100 percent responsible for any harm that happens to their child ever, sometimes past 18. People (especially of young children) expect that parents should be physically present right next to their child at all times, and if something perfectly normal happens like for example a the child falls down unwitnessed even though the parent was in the connected room, parents get tons of questions about it. Parents got to cook food and do dishes and sleep at some point, and cannot have the type of attention span that society is demanding of parents. Then there are parents who try fruitlessly try to do this, and never ever stop, and it feedbacks on each other.
These types of societal expectations are infuriating, and I do think that if people pushed back more on the unrealistic things, and were more accepting and less judgmental of accidents, because wow the messaging around parents who end up with kids in terrible accidents, is really really awful. And also stop with the victim blaming of parents and of children who are victims of crime.
Anyway, I don't have good answers and this is sort of rambling now.
Of course, this entire rant doesn't mean I am just going to let my kid roam the internet, but I will be having a focus on education and warning signs, appropriate and inappropriate behavior and internet safety, fostering communication so if there is a problem she talks to me, so that I don't have to constantly monitor my child, and that monitoring will definitely be focused more when she is younger and less in high school and upper teenage years.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:42 PM on February 8, 2022 [43 favorites]
I definitely could have used some support and guidance on internet stuff because there were definitely some toxic things that I ran into that I'm not very happy about.
This article really doesn't cover what happens when abusive parents track their children, and how very very unsafe that is. It also is so VERY unhelpful that kids of abusive parents who never enter the system aren't eligible for most domestic violence services, safe houses and such, many of these kids are on their own, even though they are controlled in very similar ways as they come into adulthood- including financial control.
I wish apps had to notify the user in the very least that when someone turns 18 (I almost feel this is to old, but its the logical cut off here) that there is active monitoring going on and if they consent for that to continue. In fact for anyone over 18, I think there should be a monthly notification that is like "hey! you have location services shared with XYZ" or "These three computers have logged into your account this month, do you need to change your password, or whatever."
I really wish there were more socially acceptable ways to push back on helicopter parenting. But society is pushing that parents are 100 percent responsible for any harm that happens to their child ever, sometimes past 18. People (especially of young children) expect that parents should be physically present right next to their child at all times, and if something perfectly normal happens like for example a the child falls down unwitnessed even though the parent was in the connected room, parents get tons of questions about it. Parents got to cook food and do dishes and sleep at some point, and cannot have the type of attention span that society is demanding of parents. Then there are parents who try fruitlessly try to do this, and never ever stop, and it feedbacks on each other.
These types of societal expectations are infuriating, and I do think that if people pushed back more on the unrealistic things, and were more accepting and less judgmental of accidents, because wow the messaging around parents who end up with kids in terrible accidents, is really really awful. And also stop with the victim blaming of parents and of children who are victims of crime.
Anyway, I don't have good answers and this is sort of rambling now.
Of course, this entire rant doesn't mean I am just going to let my kid roam the internet, but I will be having a focus on education and warning signs, appropriate and inappropriate behavior and internet safety, fostering communication so if there is a problem she talks to me, so that I don't have to constantly monitor my child, and that monitoring will definitely be focused more when she is younger and less in high school and upper teenage years.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:42 PM on February 8, 2022 [43 favorites]
1) I am a luddite (and a hypocrite). I think kids should be slowly and briefly introduced to tech just like one would introduce them to alcohol, powertool, firearms, automobile driving. Emphasis on safety and supervision.
2) techonolgy is unavoidable, they will need it for school, work, friendship and courtship so unfortunately they have to be allowed to drink the poison.
3) the statistically overwhelming source of danger (physical and sexual) to your child is the male parent, uncle, older brother. To protect your child, spy on those people.
4) spying on someone over 18 should be illegal, instead it is the business model of most of the economy. Your government and many other government, all the big tech companies and sales/analytics companies and data brokers and insurance companies and and
5) hence, reluctantly your child needs to get used to the idea that privacy does not exist, that neither you nor they have it, and that the consequences of being reprimanded by parent for childhood indiscretions are much less than say catching the attention if a milita and getting doxed or getting blacklisted by employers or flagged by government agencies. The younger your child learns to have data hygiene, inner freedom and self-censorship the more successful they can be in a world ruled by data.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:24 AM on February 9, 2022 [29 favorites]
2) techonolgy is unavoidable, they will need it for school, work, friendship and courtship so unfortunately they have to be allowed to drink the poison.
3) the statistically overwhelming source of danger (physical and sexual) to your child is the male parent, uncle, older brother. To protect your child, spy on those people.
4) spying on someone over 18 should be illegal, instead it is the business model of most of the economy. Your government and many other government, all the big tech companies and sales/analytics companies and data brokers and insurance companies and and
5) hence, reluctantly your child needs to get used to the idea that privacy does not exist, that neither you nor they have it, and that the consequences of being reprimanded by parent for childhood indiscretions are much less than say catching the attention if a milita and getting doxed or getting blacklisted by employers or flagged by government agencies. The younger your child learns to have data hygiene, inner freedom and self-censorship the more successful they can be in a world ruled by data.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:24 AM on February 9, 2022 [29 favorites]
Back around 2000, in the era of the "family computer", I recall that it struck me: as if parenting were not already hard enough, now they have to police their kids online, worry about what is going on in AOL chat rooms and all, have "the talk" after finding "glory hole Kermit" or whatever in search history, all that stuff. And as said above, the issues have grown far more complex and serious since then.
posted by thelonius at 2:02 AM on February 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 2:02 AM on February 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
"glory hole Kermit"
I want so much to search for this, but yet I want so much not to have searched for this.
posted by biffa at 2:15 AM on February 9, 2022 [31 favorites]
I want so much to search for this, but yet I want so much not to have searched for this.
posted by biffa at 2:15 AM on February 9, 2022 [31 favorites]
> I'm so grateful that this type of surveillance wasn't possible when I was a teenager and that my mom wasn't the type of parent to even want to do it. I get viscerally angry at the idea. [...] I needed privacy when I was a teenager. I needed the room to have my own interests and friendships without my mom constantly peering over my shoulder. I had a pretty active online life; I saw some porn that maybe I shouldn't have, but other than that I was okay. I made friends, wrote stories, learned about the world and myself. I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that if I'd been surveilled. [...] And my mom was supportive! I didn't come from a conservative household. But I wasn't ready to talk to my mom about it yet.
Yeah, very much this - I wanted and needed the space to figure out who I was, on my own terms. And I went after it pretty aggressively from college on - never moved back, even for a summer, even when I dropped out of college for a time because depression and anxiety were getting the best of me. This is not to say that everything's always amazing in my corner of the universe, or that I'm a perfectly functioning adult human being (lolsob), but I think the counterfactual me who did move back home (to family who did and do love me!) would not have been better off.
posted by ASF Tod und Schwerkraft at 4:09 AM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah, very much this - I wanted and needed the space to figure out who I was, on my own terms. And I went after it pretty aggressively from college on - never moved back, even for a summer, even when I dropped out of college for a time because depression and anxiety were getting the best of me. This is not to say that everything's always amazing in my corner of the universe, or that I'm a perfectly functioning adult human being (lolsob), but I think the counterfactual me who did move back home (to family who did and do love me!) would not have been better off.
posted by ASF Tod und Schwerkraft at 4:09 AM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hrm, factoid, there's a Kermit, TX (US).
posted by zengargoyle at 4:20 AM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by zengargoyle at 4:20 AM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's not a Bioware RPG, guys. You don't have to choose one extreme or another. There are gradations between "totally unsupervised internet experience for your kids" and "implant them with a chip that tracks their location and mood."
My oldest is 8, and yes, it's a challenge to keep tabs on her internet usage. That's mostly a problem with platforms and shitty corporate actors, though--I'm 100% sure Youtube is actively complicit in pushing recommendations that send kids toward bad actors. I'm taking a "trust but verify" approach, so I poke my head in every half hour or so during screen time to see what she's watching. If I were to suspect that something weird was going on, I can dig the history out of our wireless router... but I've never needed to do that, and I don't see myself needing to in the near future. The idea of getting notifications about my kids' activities as, like, a daily thing is just bizarre. If the tech had been there when I was a kid, and I suspected that my parents were doing something like that, it would have annihilated whatever trust I had in them, and I would have gone on a merry spree of trying to beat the software doing the tracking, like I did with my high school's computer lab monitoring software.
posted by Mayor West at 4:38 AM on February 9, 2022 [13 favorites]
My oldest is 8, and yes, it's a challenge to keep tabs on her internet usage. That's mostly a problem with platforms and shitty corporate actors, though--I'm 100% sure Youtube is actively complicit in pushing recommendations that send kids toward bad actors. I'm taking a "trust but verify" approach, so I poke my head in every half hour or so during screen time to see what she's watching. If I were to suspect that something weird was going on, I can dig the history out of our wireless router... but I've never needed to do that, and I don't see myself needing to in the near future. The idea of getting notifications about my kids' activities as, like, a daily thing is just bizarre. If the tech had been there when I was a kid, and I suspected that my parents were doing something like that, it would have annihilated whatever trust I had in them, and I would have gone on a merry spree of trying to beat the software doing the tracking, like I did with my high school's computer lab monitoring software.
posted by Mayor West at 4:38 AM on February 9, 2022 [13 favorites]
I am so thankful this technology didn't exist when I was a child. My mother would have installed every possible option. Hell, she would do this today if she could figure out how. It's amazing how the more obsessed someone is with watching us, the less we like them or want to share things with them.
posted by ananci at 5:10 AM on February 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by ananci at 5:10 AM on February 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Here's a fun data point: my kid wants to play music. He gets ten minutes to browse music on my phone to play on the stereo (Spotify via Sonos app). I have the "explicit lyrics" filter, the closest thing Spotify has to a child-safe mode, on. About halfway through he starts up a podcast that starts talking about how evil Muslims are.
Twenty companies will sell me tracking software to make sure my kid isn't hanging out with the queers, but no one will put in basic controls to keep them away from fascist trash.
People in here are still pretending that the digital equivalent of a creep in a van is the threat.
posted by phooky at 5:21 AM on February 9, 2022 [91 favorites]
Twenty companies will sell me tracking software to make sure my kid isn't hanging out with the queers, but no one will put in basic controls to keep them away from fascist trash.
People in here are still pretending that the digital equivalent of a creep in a van is the threat.
posted by phooky at 5:21 AM on February 9, 2022 [91 favorites]
It's probably good for the children to get used to the tyranny and omnipresent surveillance early on in their development. It will make things so much easier for them in the future.
posted by some loser at 5:22 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by some loser at 5:22 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Having put a little thought into this recently*, I think it's a devilishly hard balance! One direction is to make sure, socially and technologically, that your kid can escalate to a responsible adult (not necessarily the parent: they may well be the danger) but preferably not the state. I'd rather enable filters and know less than monitor everything. I'd rather have voluntary location sharing ("let me know where you are") than spyware. And I need to accept that in 10-20 years my kids are probably going to be technically sophisticated enough to take the decision out of my hands, and make sure they have a deep enough understanding to keep themselves safe from those in power as well as their peers.
In terms of public opinion, we haven't even won this battle for adults, never mind minors. If someone commits a crime which involved sending an Internet message, people are asking "why were they able to send private messages?". If you want to defend that kind of autonomy, dignity, and respect for rights, what do you say in the inevitable case when a kid does come to grief? It's hard to point a finger at the harm that was prevented (although you may have the stats to back it up).
It's a weird experience for me thinking this through with young kids. I have a genuine Rawlsian "veil of ignorance" where I have no idea if they'll be searching for gore videos, exploring their gender and sexuality, cyber-bullying someone, becoming "influencers", developing unhealthy body images, learning about tech, DDoSing people, becoming politically engaged, or corresponding with peers around the world.
* I decided it was a bad idea to work with schools
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 5:27 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
In terms of public opinion, we haven't even won this battle for adults, never mind minors. If someone commits a crime which involved sending an Internet message, people are asking "why were they able to send private messages?". If you want to defend that kind of autonomy, dignity, and respect for rights, what do you say in the inevitable case when a kid does come to grief? It's hard to point a finger at the harm that was prevented (although you may have the stats to back it up).
It's a weird experience for me thinking this through with young kids. I have a genuine Rawlsian "veil of ignorance" where I have no idea if they'll be searching for gore videos, exploring their gender and sexuality, cyber-bullying someone, becoming "influencers", developing unhealthy body images, learning about tech, DDoSing people, becoming politically engaged, or corresponding with peers around the world.
* I decided it was a bad idea to work with schools
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 5:27 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't let them use the internet at all if I could.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:29 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:29 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
now they have to police their kids online, worry about what is going on in AOL chat rooms and all, have "the talk" after finding "glory hole Kermit" or whatever in search history, all that stuff. And as said above, the issues have grown far more complex and serious since then.
But why do you have to police your kids online--because you can? My mom couldn't police what my friends and I were talking about in our "chat rooms" (our rooms, endless phone calls, the school cafeteria, cruising around in cars etc.) And, yes, I get that the wide world of porn and 4chan weren't available to us, but that can be addressed by blocks and content filters. There's no need to be reading chats, texts, and emails. What a violation. If my mom had read my diary or listened to my phone calls when I was a kid it would've done permanent damage.
I may not have found glory hole Kermit in my youth but I was for sure reading VC Andrews and Clan of the Cave Bear. I also found a very large stash of porn at a house I was babysitting at. My parents couldn't track that so they didn't. Modern parents can so they will, but they don't have to.
posted by Mavri at 5:47 AM on February 9, 2022 [16 favorites]
But why do you have to police your kids online--because you can? My mom couldn't police what my friends and I were talking about in our "chat rooms" (our rooms, endless phone calls, the school cafeteria, cruising around in cars etc.) And, yes, I get that the wide world of porn and 4chan weren't available to us, but that can be addressed by blocks and content filters. There's no need to be reading chats, texts, and emails. What a violation. If my mom had read my diary or listened to my phone calls when I was a kid it would've done permanent damage.
I may not have found glory hole Kermit in my youth but I was for sure reading VC Andrews and Clan of the Cave Bear. I also found a very large stash of porn at a house I was babysitting at. My parents couldn't track that so they didn't. Modern parents can so they will, but they don't have to.
posted by Mavri at 5:47 AM on February 9, 2022 [16 favorites]
Somewhat interestingly, while we don't track or monitor our kid's online activity, they keep receipts. Let me give you an example.
The mother of a kid in class produced a chat log she claimed proved our kid was bullying her son. There were numerous deleted messages. The log, as it was, showed our kid being harsh and telling the kid he wasn't welcome to hang out in this group. Our kid said, "Yeah. Thought this might happen, so I kept screenshots." The full unexpurgated chat contained her kid starting the argument, swearing appallingly for a 12 y/o, and calling our kid a homophobic slur repeatedly. In context, them telling the kid to shut his mouth and go away was not only not bullying, it was arguably restrained.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:47 AM on February 9, 2022 [66 favorites]
The mother of a kid in class produced a chat log she claimed proved our kid was bullying her son. There were numerous deleted messages. The log, as it was, showed our kid being harsh and telling the kid he wasn't welcome to hang out in this group. Our kid said, "Yeah. Thought this might happen, so I kept screenshots." The full unexpurgated chat contained her kid starting the argument, swearing appallingly for a 12 y/o, and calling our kid a homophobic slur repeatedly. In context, them telling the kid to shut his mouth and go away was not only not bullying, it was arguably restrained.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:47 AM on February 9, 2022 [66 favorites]
I A former co-worker has a kid in college who has stopped all contact with him because she discovered his tracking of her phone. Otherwise as far as I know a perfectly loving parent, but that violation was enough.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:04 AM on February 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 6:04 AM on February 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
DirtyOldTown, I'm pleased and impressed that your kid knew to keep screenshots.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:08 AM on February 9, 2022
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:08 AM on February 9, 2022
Our 12 year old has location-based services active on his phone. We’ve used it for several years now. When he walked to school (pre-pandemic) we were both at work when it was time for him to leave the house, and we used the tracking to ensure he didn’t get lost in a book and forget to leave home on time. Now that he’s in a middle school and getting dropped off by us, the tracking is essentially just ensuring his phone automatically goes on silent while at the school.
It has come in handy. We’ve used the tracking when he is out with friends, but really only when he is not home when we expected him to arrive. Hell, we use the tracking on each other, my wife checking to see that I’m actually on the way to get the kid after school or me looking to see where she is when she’s out for a run and I’m trying to ensure food is ready when she gets home. But all three of us know the tracking is enabled, and it’s two-way - we can track the kid but his phone is also tracking us.
I think the informing bit is important. He knows full well that we can audit his web usage if needed, and for gods sake when his grades were lower than they should be during school-from-home, we showed him that his history told us how much time he was wasting on YouTube during class time. The deal is pretty simple. If we can trust him to focus on school during school, or to not watch TV endlessly, he’s free to do his thing, but he also knows we can and will verify his activity if he gives us a reason to do so.
Pretty much all of this tracking is on Apple devices. When he’s old enough to take over his own account, our ability to control his screen time or see where he is without his express permission ends. He knows this. We keep the focus now on the idea that our monitoring is to help him learn good habits, limiting his screen time to a reasonable amount and keeping on task during school. When he’s old enough to be interested in dating? We may need to re-think our access. He does need his own privacy.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:08 AM on February 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
It has come in handy. We’ve used the tracking when he is out with friends, but really only when he is not home when we expected him to arrive. Hell, we use the tracking on each other, my wife checking to see that I’m actually on the way to get the kid after school or me looking to see where she is when she’s out for a run and I’m trying to ensure food is ready when she gets home. But all three of us know the tracking is enabled, and it’s two-way - we can track the kid but his phone is also tracking us.
I think the informing bit is important. He knows full well that we can audit his web usage if needed, and for gods sake when his grades were lower than they should be during school-from-home, we showed him that his history told us how much time he was wasting on YouTube during class time. The deal is pretty simple. If we can trust him to focus on school during school, or to not watch TV endlessly, he’s free to do his thing, but he also knows we can and will verify his activity if he gives us a reason to do so.
Pretty much all of this tracking is on Apple devices. When he’s old enough to take over his own account, our ability to control his screen time or see where he is without his express permission ends. He knows this. We keep the focus now on the idea that our monitoring is to help him learn good habits, limiting his screen time to a reasonable amount and keeping on task during school. When he’s old enough to be interested in dating? We may need to re-think our access. He does need his own privacy.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:08 AM on February 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
This part:
"A University of Central Florida study of 200 teen/parent pairs found that parents who used monitoring apps were more likely to be authoritarian, and that teens who were monitored were not just equally but more likely to be exposed to unwanted explicit content and to bullying. Another study, from the Netherlands, found that monitored teens were more secretive and less likely to ask for help. It’s no surprise that most teens, when you bother to ask them, feel that monitoring poisons a relationship. And there are very real situations, especially for queer and trans teens, where their safety may depend on being able to explore without exposing all the details to their family."
So. This suggests that it might be a really bad idea to spy on your kids if your goal is to keep them safe.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 6:20 AM on February 9, 2022 [32 favorites]
"A University of Central Florida study of 200 teen/parent pairs found that parents who used monitoring apps were more likely to be authoritarian, and that teens who were monitored were not just equally but more likely to be exposed to unwanted explicit content and to bullying. Another study, from the Netherlands, found that monitored teens were more secretive and less likely to ask for help. It’s no surprise that most teens, when you bother to ask them, feel that monitoring poisons a relationship. And there are very real situations, especially for queer and trans teens, where their safety may depend on being able to explore without exposing all the details to their family."
So. This suggests that it might be a really bad idea to spy on your kids if your goal is to keep them safe.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 6:20 AM on February 9, 2022 [32 favorites]
Yeah, navigating this is challenging. I feel comfortable in this way: my kids and I talk a great deal about whatever they've come across online. When my 12 y/o son says something with a tinge of soft right wing talking points, I address it and talk about how and why Youtube is feeding him this garbage. That this is a soft sell to get him 1 degree closer, one nudge to the right. Almost imperceptible but a required step of radicalization. I do think he understands it and I don't see any of the concepts he's encountered taking root. But, him understanding that he is a target of misinformation and propaganda is a point that he hears often from me (just not in those terms). There is no digital/real life point of demarcation for these kids. It is all just life. Took me a while to understand that psychology because it is not how I view life. I think that is the bigger generational challenge.
Appreciate the post.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:29 AM on February 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
Appreciate the post.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:29 AM on February 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
By the same token, I really wish we as a society were doing a better job of teaching kids how to protect themselves online. I didn’t go online until I was a young adult, but back then the message was loud and clear to not give away too much private information. I see a lot of kids and teens just put all of their personal info out there for anyone to see and use against them, and it makes me nervous for them. In my time in university administration, I’ve sadly heard of more than one case of a student not being accepted to a program because of stupid stuff they put out on social media that was easily identifiable as them, and I’ve Just been gob smacked that nobody took the time to tell them to go back and scrub all that stuff before applying.
I mean, it’s the same old story, finding a balance between safety and freedom and teaching kids how to protect themselves in general. But it seems like the online stuff falls through the cracks a lot.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:37 AM on February 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
I mean, it’s the same old story, finding a balance between safety and freedom and teaching kids how to protect themselves in general. But it seems like the online stuff falls through the cracks a lot.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:37 AM on February 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
I've had to start thinking about this as well. Aside from not wanting my kid to turn into a phone drone like myself, I'm with phooky on this one.
I'm not worried nearly as much about someone trying to touch my kid as I am worried about all the ideological traps the current incarnation of the internet sets for middle class white boys.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:50 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not worried nearly as much about someone trying to touch my kid as I am worried about all the ideological traps the current incarnation of the internet sets for middle class white boys.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:50 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
...when do you stop, and why?
Never. They will be 18 and go off to college, and you'll still track them. They'll graduate at 22, and you'll still track them. They'll turn 25, get a job, get married, and you'll still track them.
It will only stop when they figure out how to escape.
This scales from individual parents to national governments. Power is never relinquished, it is only taken away.
“Mom, my friend’s parents just CALLED HER and chewed her out,” she yelled, “because we were a block away from where she was supposed to be. We just went to a different café after school because the first one was crowded. They’re tracking her ALL THE TIME.”
99% of surveillance is pointless and ignored. The remaining 1% isn't used to protect. It's used to punish.
Surveillance isn't about protection, it's about control. Here's the proof: how many of these parents allow their children to have unfettered access to their own texts, emails, GPS location, credit card statements, personal diaries, and browsing history?
I'm going to guess it's roughly about 0.0% of these surveiling parents.
I'm in my late thirties. If you tell me that parents shouldn't be under the microscope by their kids because adults are responsible, then the cat is going to be spooked off my lap from my loud cackling.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:53 AM on February 9, 2022 [24 favorites]
Never. They will be 18 and go off to college, and you'll still track them. They'll graduate at 22, and you'll still track them. They'll turn 25, get a job, get married, and you'll still track them.
It will only stop when they figure out how to escape.
This scales from individual parents to national governments. Power is never relinquished, it is only taken away.
“Mom, my friend’s parents just CALLED HER and chewed her out,” she yelled, “because we were a block away from where she was supposed to be. We just went to a different café after school because the first one was crowded. They’re tracking her ALL THE TIME.”
99% of surveillance is pointless and ignored. The remaining 1% isn't used to protect. It's used to punish.
Surveillance isn't about protection, it's about control. Here's the proof: how many of these parents allow their children to have unfettered access to their own texts, emails, GPS location, credit card statements, personal diaries, and browsing history?
I'm going to guess it's roughly about 0.0% of these surveiling parents.
I'm in my late thirties. If you tell me that parents shouldn't be under the microscope by their kids because adults are responsible, then the cat is going to be spooked off my lap from my loud cackling.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:53 AM on February 9, 2022 [24 favorites]
Unlike for IRL free range, I think the dangers of online free range can be mitigated by parents building a solid relationship with kids and giving *them* the tools to negotiate the things that are out there.
IRL I might need to worry about my kids getting kidnapped or (much more likely) hit by a car. Online, as long as I make sure they're using good security (password manager, vpn, not sharing personal info, not clicking random links, etc.) I don't really have to meddle or hover or track them to protect them. Rather, I need to train them to navigate that world and remain trustworthy + connected so that I'm available. Like I'm never going to be able to stop my kids from seeing porn, even horrific porn perhaps. But I can make sure they're informed (not moralized to!), and motivate them to act in responsible ways.
I am not going to pretend it'll airways work, and I'll definitely not going to pretend luck and privilege has nothing to do with whatever partial level of success we can get from this strategy.
But we have no other choice! Trackers that keep tabs on our kids' online activity are awful in all the ways discussed by this article and on this thread (no parent has that much time ffs!!! and we can't trust the corporation with this data, it might be inherently abusive to keep tabs, teens require and deserve privacy, kids should be allowed to fail early in order to learn to come to us in times of need, etc).
It's the baseline work of parenting, building an open enough relationship with the kids that the potentially damaging things they're doing online (or IRL!) might be casually mentioned at the dinner table. I'm thinking here of last week when my teenage son mentioned a funny YouTube video he got from a friend - and I was lucky enough to have the time & wherewithal to see it for the opportunity it was, and I said, "Show me!" It turned out to be horrifically racist but in a way designed to go over the head of a 14 yr old: it was Osama bin Laden singing in a weird funny voice about how he's dead? And also how Obama and Osama are besties because they have the same name, and how in his off hours Osama drives a NY taxicab, and something about Taylor Swift's cameltoe. I don't think my son knew what a cameltoe is (I told him, it was the easiest thing to explain, sigh), and neither did he know the specific cultural resonance of Osama/Obama comparisons that make it racist rather than a throwaway weird joke (I told him Trump used to say shit like that, and he got it immediately), but it was tough going re: the racism inherent in stereotyping middle eastern people as cab drivers, because he's never heard of it and he suspected I was exaggerating. I ended up saying, "Well, I know it seems weird to you, but here's my concern: you have so many Muslim friends and I guarantee it won't be funny to them if you forward this. Just letting you know so you don't accidentally hurt your buddies." He immediately got it, thank fuck. I ought to direct him to the alt right playbook videos, he's definitely ready to learn about this in depth.
But the point of this long story is, what if I'd been too tired or too bored or just plain unavailable... I'd never be having these conversations, I'd never have been able to compensate for my lackluster reaction to this video by asking him to show me more funny videos and reacting "well" (i.e. laughing not being critical) to them, which ensures he keeps mentioning funny videos to me in the future. It's a shitload of work, but imo the connection and the talking are KEY to keeping my kids safe. It's also the only way I know.
posted by MiraK at 7:03 AM on February 9, 2022 [24 favorites]
IRL I might need to worry about my kids getting kidnapped or (much more likely) hit by a car. Online, as long as I make sure they're using good security (password manager, vpn, not sharing personal info, not clicking random links, etc.) I don't really have to meddle or hover or track them to protect them. Rather, I need to train them to navigate that world and remain trustworthy + connected so that I'm available. Like I'm never going to be able to stop my kids from seeing porn, even horrific porn perhaps. But I can make sure they're informed (not moralized to!), and motivate them to act in responsible ways.
I am not going to pretend it'll airways work, and I'll definitely not going to pretend luck and privilege has nothing to do with whatever partial level of success we can get from this strategy.
But we have no other choice! Trackers that keep tabs on our kids' online activity are awful in all the ways discussed by this article and on this thread (no parent has that much time ffs!!! and we can't trust the corporation with this data, it might be inherently abusive to keep tabs, teens require and deserve privacy, kids should be allowed to fail early in order to learn to come to us in times of need, etc).
It's the baseline work of parenting, building an open enough relationship with the kids that the potentially damaging things they're doing online (or IRL!) might be casually mentioned at the dinner table. I'm thinking here of last week when my teenage son mentioned a funny YouTube video he got from a friend - and I was lucky enough to have the time & wherewithal to see it for the opportunity it was, and I said, "Show me!" It turned out to be horrifically racist but in a way designed to go over the head of a 14 yr old: it was Osama bin Laden singing in a weird funny voice about how he's dead? And also how Obama and Osama are besties because they have the same name, and how in his off hours Osama drives a NY taxicab, and something about Taylor Swift's cameltoe. I don't think my son knew what a cameltoe is (I told him, it was the easiest thing to explain, sigh), and neither did he know the specific cultural resonance of Osama/Obama comparisons that make it racist rather than a throwaway weird joke (I told him Trump used to say shit like that, and he got it immediately), but it was tough going re: the racism inherent in stereotyping middle eastern people as cab drivers, because he's never heard of it and he suspected I was exaggerating. I ended up saying, "Well, I know it seems weird to you, but here's my concern: you have so many Muslim friends and I guarantee it won't be funny to them if you forward this. Just letting you know so you don't accidentally hurt your buddies." He immediately got it, thank fuck. I ought to direct him to the alt right playbook videos, he's definitely ready to learn about this in depth.
But the point of this long story is, what if I'd been too tired or too bored or just plain unavailable... I'd never be having these conversations, I'd never have been able to compensate for my lackluster reaction to this video by asking him to show me more funny videos and reacting "well" (i.e. laughing not being critical) to them, which ensures he keeps mentioning funny videos to me in the future. It's a shitload of work, but imo the connection and the talking are KEY to keeping my kids safe. It's also the only way I know.
posted by MiraK at 7:03 AM on February 9, 2022 [24 favorites]
As soon as I had internet (14ish?) I was diving into all sorts of explicit content. Not bombs, not hacking, not fascism, just porn. I remember my dad sitting me down every six months or so and giving me "the talk" but I just learned that (A) there is no such thing as an effective porn blocker, and (B) what the inside of a butt looks like.
I have no idea how a child can be guided to use the internet with any type of safety. I don't have any misgivings about the stuff I looked at as a kid - heck, I turned out all right, right? But on the other hand, I'm not comfortable saying "Because age restriction doesn't work, there's no point trying to restrict content."
Being able to check the router logs and see every single website someone visits must be a truly terrifying thing.
posted by rebent at 7:05 AM on February 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
I have no idea how a child can be guided to use the internet with any type of safety. I don't have any misgivings about the stuff I looked at as a kid - heck, I turned out all right, right? But on the other hand, I'm not comfortable saying "Because age restriction doesn't work, there's no point trying to restrict content."
Being able to check the router logs and see every single website someone visits must be a truly terrifying thing.
posted by rebent at 7:05 AM on February 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
a lot of the time I type a comment and delete, MeFi is like a confessional that way.
I'm not a parent, but I salute all parents who are just trying to do their best. I'm of a generation where we got out the door, got on our bikes, and we'd be invisible the rest of the day, off on our business with friends. I don't know any parents who give their kids that much slack today, the whole situation has changed in the past few generations.
good luck out there
posted by elkevelvet at 7:34 AM on February 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'm not a parent, but I salute all parents who are just trying to do their best. I'm of a generation where we got out the door, got on our bikes, and we'd be invisible the rest of the day, off on our business with friends. I don't know any parents who give their kids that much slack today, the whole situation has changed in the past few generations.
good luck out there
posted by elkevelvet at 7:34 AM on February 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
I found that in our particular circumstance, what really helped was simply talking to our kid about:
a) the fact that her technology allowed us to know where she was and what she was doing at all times;
b) that we were not necessarily interested or concerned where she was at all times;
c) but if she would check in with us every now and then when she was out and about, it would make us happy to know she was not crashed in a ditch or being actively consumed by a pack of wild dogs.
Our experience with her growing up is that she didn't mind us having the capability of knowing where she was because it gave her some measure of security in uncertain circumstances, and also she trusted us not to be assholes about that ability. We did check in with her regularly about it to make sure we were all on the same page about things. And also, because I am extremely online, at pretty much every step of the way I was able to help give her context for what the Internet was about, which, coupled with her own "digital native" status, means that she approaches the things she sees and read on the Internet with what I think is an appropriate grain of salt.
I'll note the potential family surveillance issues don't end with parents watching kids; my spouse has the ability to know where I am at just about any point in the day, and I her. I find this not particularly objectionable since there is nothing I'm doing that I haven't already told her about, and vice-versa, and also, she doesn't particularly care where I am every second of the day (and vice-versa).
I suppose the lesson to take away here is that in families, communication and healthy understanding of boundaries can do a lot to mitigate surveillance issues.
posted by jscalzi at 7:35 AM on February 9, 2022 [17 favorites]
a) the fact that her technology allowed us to know where she was and what she was doing at all times;
b) that we were not necessarily interested or concerned where she was at all times;
c) but if she would check in with us every now and then when she was out and about, it would make us happy to know she was not crashed in a ditch or being actively consumed by a pack of wild dogs.
Our experience with her growing up is that she didn't mind us having the capability of knowing where she was because it gave her some measure of security in uncertain circumstances, and also she trusted us not to be assholes about that ability. We did check in with her regularly about it to make sure we were all on the same page about things. And also, because I am extremely online, at pretty much every step of the way I was able to help give her context for what the Internet was about, which, coupled with her own "digital native" status, means that she approaches the things she sees and read on the Internet with what I think is an appropriate grain of salt.
I'll note the potential family surveillance issues don't end with parents watching kids; my spouse has the ability to know where I am at just about any point in the day, and I her. I find this not particularly objectionable since there is nothing I'm doing that I haven't already told her about, and vice-versa, and also, she doesn't particularly care where I am every second of the day (and vice-versa).
I suppose the lesson to take away here is that in families, communication and healthy understanding of boundaries can do a lot to mitigate surveillance issues.
posted by jscalzi at 7:35 AM on February 9, 2022 [17 favorites]
Let me preface this screed by saying I fully acknowledge that I am atypical in how I approach this subject and that I am coming from a place of privilege in more than one way. I do so love to talk about what I think best practices are, though, so I'll share my experience and perspective.
I've been Very Online since the 80s when I was in high school. It's been important to me, informed who I became, led me through multiple experiences (some of which we would describe in modern terms as traumatic), and formed my values in an essential way. My parents had NO FUCKING IDEA what I was up to both online and IRL.
I've provided my household with a LAN with unfettered high speed transit to the internet since the 90s, alongside some internal services for residents and family members. I consider this as fundamental as providing my home with running water or breathable air. We had children in the late 90s and at the turn of the millenium. They have had unmanaged, root access to computers of their own since each turned about 11. They have had cell phones since turning slightly older. Both are adults now.
All this verbose context is to set the stage for how I have and continue to approach online child safety: education, involvement, availability, and discussion. Technological surveillence measures have always been and will always be completely off the table. I view them as disgusting intrustions that I would not have tolerated in my own childhood and certainly will not tolerate inflicting on children myself. The only time I have infringed on my children's network access has been once, when one child with executive function issues needed to have a distraction removed so that we could work together on adjusting a behavioral issue. I blackholed their traffic at the router for a weekend, because all family members in the household have access to their own VPN accounts with commercial providers, not managed by me. I encourage this (a) for piracy reasons, and (b) because I want them to be able to tunnel out from under my ability to observe them.
I have provided filtered DNS by default for the household for several years. The filtering rules, curated by me and not a service, are heavily focused around blocking commercial surveillance and user profiling/tracking, with additional emphasis on blocking as much advertising as possible at the lookup level before adblockers have to do it. We take our privacy pretty seriously. After a recent incident I added domain blocking for content reasons for the very, very first time: I no longer serve DNS results for platforms which actively promote fascism or encourage fascist or white supremacist content. This was a fucking hard decision to make.
One of my children -- who happened to be square in the target demographic -- became vulnerable to and influenced by "soft" radicalization content that is openly running rampant. This was a bit baffling as both they and I identify mixed POC and hard anti-fascist. Dinner table conversations and living room debates full of vulnerability, values, and perspective-sharing were my primary defense against this incident and proved largely effective. About a year after it was A Problem, and no longer punative in nature, I instituted the blocking of alt-right, wingnut, and neonazi content domains to prevent accidental clicks, leakage, or to allow the reader to stop short before taking countermeasures. Both children continue to have access to their VPNs to bypass any traffic filtering rules I may implement.
For full disclosure, I should mention that I review DNS activity logs. I do this not with the intention of removing access to content or knowing what family members are up to but to keep vigilant against commercial surveillance. Fucking trackers are everywhere. As a lifelong system administrator I have always had privileged access to other people's private data, traffic, and information. I take my ethical obligation to treat that power with a great deal of respect VERY VERY SERIOUSLY. root does not get to exploit the privilege, it's unprofessional.
I pay for iPhones for all family members and each is encouraged to control their own location-sharing setting. After some debate and discussion, we agreed to enable the feature family-wide because of our living/travel/commute situations and regional wildfire danger. It's noteworthy that both of our kids are currently in the public safety field.
TL;DR: Talk to your kids. Surveillence is assault.
posted by majick at 7:41 AM on February 9, 2022 [27 favorites]
I've been Very Online since the 80s when I was in high school. It's been important to me, informed who I became, led me through multiple experiences (some of which we would describe in modern terms as traumatic), and formed my values in an essential way. My parents had NO FUCKING IDEA what I was up to both online and IRL.
I've provided my household with a LAN with unfettered high speed transit to the internet since the 90s, alongside some internal services for residents and family members. I consider this as fundamental as providing my home with running water or breathable air. We had children in the late 90s and at the turn of the millenium. They have had unmanaged, root access to computers of their own since each turned about 11. They have had cell phones since turning slightly older. Both are adults now.
All this verbose context is to set the stage for how I have and continue to approach online child safety: education, involvement, availability, and discussion. Technological surveillence measures have always been and will always be completely off the table. I view them as disgusting intrustions that I would not have tolerated in my own childhood and certainly will not tolerate inflicting on children myself. The only time I have infringed on my children's network access has been once, when one child with executive function issues needed to have a distraction removed so that we could work together on adjusting a behavioral issue. I blackholed their traffic at the router for a weekend, because all family members in the household have access to their own VPN accounts with commercial providers, not managed by me. I encourage this (a) for piracy reasons, and (b) because I want them to be able to tunnel out from under my ability to observe them.
I have provided filtered DNS by default for the household for several years. The filtering rules, curated by me and not a service, are heavily focused around blocking commercial surveillance and user profiling/tracking, with additional emphasis on blocking as much advertising as possible at the lookup level before adblockers have to do it. We take our privacy pretty seriously. After a recent incident I added domain blocking for content reasons for the very, very first time: I no longer serve DNS results for platforms which actively promote fascism or encourage fascist or white supremacist content. This was a fucking hard decision to make.
One of my children -- who happened to be square in the target demographic -- became vulnerable to and influenced by "soft" radicalization content that is openly running rampant. This was a bit baffling as both they and I identify mixed POC and hard anti-fascist. Dinner table conversations and living room debates full of vulnerability, values, and perspective-sharing were my primary defense against this incident and proved largely effective. About a year after it was A Problem, and no longer punative in nature, I instituted the blocking of alt-right, wingnut, and neonazi content domains to prevent accidental clicks, leakage, or to allow the reader to stop short before taking countermeasures. Both children continue to have access to their VPNs to bypass any traffic filtering rules I may implement.
For full disclosure, I should mention that I review DNS activity logs. I do this not with the intention of removing access to content or knowing what family members are up to but to keep vigilant against commercial surveillance. Fucking trackers are everywhere. As a lifelong system administrator I have always had privileged access to other people's private data, traffic, and information. I take my ethical obligation to treat that power with a great deal of respect VERY VERY SERIOUSLY. root does not get to exploit the privilege, it's unprofessional.
I pay for iPhones for all family members and each is encouraged to control their own location-sharing setting. After some debate and discussion, we agreed to enable the feature family-wide because of our living/travel/commute situations and regional wildfire danger. It's noteworthy that both of our kids are currently in the public safety field.
TL;DR: Talk to your kids. Surveillence is assault.
posted by majick at 7:41 AM on February 9, 2022 [27 favorites]
It's a really hard balance. I'm raising kids who are curious and into everything and I was too, and I had 100% unfettered access to both appropriate and inappropriate things.
I *can* track my teen on Find My Phone I guess, but I don't. My 11 year old does not have a trackable device with him yet. I have given my kids, pre-Covid, more physical freedom than average, and got shit for it in the neighbourhood (that I let my then-12 year old take the bus from art camp to Martial Arts on his own.) I think because that's still similar, even in some ways safer (and some ways not) than when I was growing up, I kind of have a feel for it.
But online media, ugh.
If you grew up pre-Internet then it really is a different world. The difference really is video, interactivity, and how terrible it can get. When my eldest was 9 he found some videos that showed graphic recreations of ways to die, including suicides. I read things like that for sure, but he watched them. It was months of nightmares for both of us, since I watched one to see what he had seen.
It was a great early failure (hopefully not too traumatizing; he seems ok, but that will be his story) in that it gave us a reference for what you choose to "give rent in your head."
But, he's now 16 and really into Viking stuff because his dad's family is Swedish and his love of Thor and stuff...well you can guess which pipeline that leads into, really fast. My younger son also has gone down some dark search AI style pathways. My 11 year old has encountered a lot of racist stuff posing as wholesome vlogging. Like some people above, I worry more about that than porn, but I do worry about porn.
I agree 100% with MiraK's approach to "fail early." I basically run a media literacy course at mealtimes, and I try to watch things with them (although the vloggers man, why do you have to BE ENTHUSED, it's worse than Dora the Explorer.)
In our house, I don't track them electronically.
I'm never sure if this is the right decision and won't know for at least a decade I would guess.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:47 AM on February 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
I *can* track my teen on Find My Phone I guess, but I don't. My 11 year old does not have a trackable device with him yet. I have given my kids, pre-Covid, more physical freedom than average, and got shit for it in the neighbourhood (that I let my then-12 year old take the bus from art camp to Martial Arts on his own.) I think because that's still similar, even in some ways safer (and some ways not) than when I was growing up, I kind of have a feel for it.
But online media, ugh.
If you grew up pre-Internet then it really is a different world. The difference really is video, interactivity, and how terrible it can get. When my eldest was 9 he found some videos that showed graphic recreations of ways to die, including suicides. I read things like that for sure, but he watched them. It was months of nightmares for both of us, since I watched one to see what he had seen.
It was a great early failure (hopefully not too traumatizing; he seems ok, but that will be his story) in that it gave us a reference for what you choose to "give rent in your head."
But, he's now 16 and really into Viking stuff because his dad's family is Swedish and his love of Thor and stuff...well you can guess which pipeline that leads into, really fast. My younger son also has gone down some dark search AI style pathways. My 11 year old has encountered a lot of racist stuff posing as wholesome vlogging. Like some people above, I worry more about that than porn, but I do worry about porn.
I agree 100% with MiraK's approach to "fail early." I basically run a media literacy course at mealtimes, and I try to watch things with them (although the vloggers man, why do you have to BE ENTHUSED, it's worse than Dora the Explorer.)
In our house, I don't track them electronically.
I'm never sure if this is the right decision and won't know for at least a decade I would guess.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:47 AM on February 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
I’m not a parent, so I’m never going to really Get It. I do find it odd to see many parents I know worry about letting their kid out of their sight for 2 minutes, but allow them free reign of the internet from an early age.
I don’t think tracking a teenager is appropriate, and it’s a violation of trust. I had extremely controlling, anxious, overinvolved parents, and it fucked me up a lot; I worry a lot about the younger generations where this is more normal, and suspect this is one reason behind the increasing prevalence of anxiety disorders. When I was 14, my mom read my diary and then made up an elaborate lie to get me in trouble for its contents. Honestly, I’m not sure I ever forgave her for that.
posted by vanitas at 7:51 AM on February 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don’t think tracking a teenager is appropriate, and it’s a violation of trust. I had extremely controlling, anxious, overinvolved parents, and it fucked me up a lot; I worry a lot about the younger generations where this is more normal, and suspect this is one reason behind the increasing prevalence of anxiety disorders. When I was 14, my mom read my diary and then made up an elaborate lie to get me in trouble for its contents. Honestly, I’m not sure I ever forgave her for that.
posted by vanitas at 7:51 AM on February 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Respectfully:
People who are comparing their experiences as teens exploring the Early Internet on the desktop in the Computer Room to today's kids, who are given their own Chromebooks by their school on which YouTube is completely unfiltered and you actually can't install any sort of parental controls, Do Not Get It.
Right now my 10-year-old is hiding his Chromebook in his room so he can sneak and watch Minecraft videos at 2AM. I confiscate the computer, he finds it. I ask him constantly about what he's watching. Mostly it's harmless (if obnoxious) video game personalities, but he's already come to me asking if vaccines are really full of nanochips. So I started checking his viewing history.
Hell, I can't even search for something on YouTube without getting results for crackpot conspiracy theories and PraegerU shit. It feels like some people are hoping to prey on my child because I can't possibly monitor his clicks 24/7. So I could ban him from the internet, or just give up and let him watch whatever...or I can keep trying to monitor what he watches and limit his time spent online. I can't protect him, or even provide context for, things that I don't know he's watching.
posted by daisystomper at 8:13 AM on February 9, 2022 [24 favorites]
People who are comparing their experiences as teens exploring the Early Internet on the desktop in the Computer Room to today's kids, who are given their own Chromebooks by their school on which YouTube is completely unfiltered and you actually can't install any sort of parental controls, Do Not Get It.
Right now my 10-year-old is hiding his Chromebook in his room so he can sneak and watch Minecraft videos at 2AM. I confiscate the computer, he finds it. I ask him constantly about what he's watching. Mostly it's harmless (if obnoxious) video game personalities, but he's already come to me asking if vaccines are really full of nanochips. So I started checking his viewing history.
Hell, I can't even search for something on YouTube without getting results for crackpot conspiracy theories and PraegerU shit. It feels like some people are hoping to prey on my child because I can't possibly monitor his clicks 24/7. So I could ban him from the internet, or just give up and let him watch whatever...or I can keep trying to monitor what he watches and limit his time spent online. I can't protect him, or even provide context for, things that I don't know he's watching.
posted by daisystomper at 8:13 AM on February 9, 2022 [24 favorites]
Solidarity, daisystomper.
Just a note that my child learned how to browse incognito on his school Chromebook from his friend so the history trick is limited.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:17 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just a note that my child learned how to browse incognito on his school Chromebook from his friend so the history trick is limited.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:17 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I basically run a media literacy course at mealtimes...I'm never sure if this is the right decision and won't know for at least a decade
I did this for pretty much 20 years straight and count me among those who call it a success. It's going to depend on the kid and the household and the relationships, of course, but we as a family have come out the other side to say that it worked for our family. I wish the best outcome for yours.
posted by majick at 8:35 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
I did this for pretty much 20 years straight and count me among those who call it a success. It's going to depend on the kid and the household and the relationships, of course, but we as a family have come out the other side to say that it worked for our family. I wish the best outcome for yours.
posted by majick at 8:35 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
really, but... when do you stop, and why?
When they find a work around.
Power is never relinquished, it is only taken away.
yup. As I heard it put many years ago (and it stuck), freedom can't be given, it can only be taken. At some point, your child will find a way (overtly or subvertly) to shrug off your chains of love/control and take their freedom, for better or for worse. If this doesn't happen, you are either the Jesus of parents or your child has a profound autonomy issue.
[I realize this probably lands as simplistic. For me, this "taking" was a process that started around age eleven. A lot of it was informed by my parents' issues with two of my siblings who got into way more trouble than I did. So while they were being attended to (constrained to varying degrees) I was sneaking out the backdoor taking all manner of liberties, getting away with shit ...]
posted by philip-random at 8:44 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
When they find a work around.
Power is never relinquished, it is only taken away.
yup. As I heard it put many years ago (and it stuck), freedom can't be given, it can only be taken. At some point, your child will find a way (overtly or subvertly) to shrug off your chains of love/control and take their freedom, for better or for worse. If this doesn't happen, you are either the Jesus of parents or your child has a profound autonomy issue.
[I realize this probably lands as simplistic. For me, this "taking" was a process that started around age eleven. A lot of it was informed by my parents' issues with two of my siblings who got into way more trouble than I did. So while they were being attended to (constrained to varying degrees) I was sneaking out the backdoor taking all manner of liberties, getting away with shit ...]
posted by philip-random at 8:44 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Congrats on prepping your kid for the surveillance state?
posted by iamck at 8:48 AM on February 9, 2022
posted by iamck at 8:48 AM on February 9, 2022
The one immutable law of parenting is that literally any/every approach you can take with your kid, someone is going to shake their head ruefully about how you're ruining them for life.
Don't believe me? Ask a parenting question on AskMe. I dare you.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:55 AM on February 9, 2022 [14 favorites]
Don't believe me? Ask a parenting question on AskMe. I dare you.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:55 AM on February 9, 2022 [14 favorites]
I hope this conversation does not devolve into snarky zingers and hugely judgmental one-liners, because that is so unfair. As a not-and-never parent (but an uncle who has seen how the effects of unfettered internet activity has impacted his young adult nephews, and two nieces who are just a few, and one year respectively, away from 18), I have to say: anyone with eyes and a brain can see this is a treacherous, wicked, problem.. there is no blanket statement that applies. Sure, some people get it "more" right than others.. but man, can we not judge each other in this space?
posted by elkevelvet at 8:57 AM on February 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 8:57 AM on February 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
Just a note that my child learned how to browse incognito on his school Chromebook from his friend so the history trick is limited.
Yeah, my kid gets into online fights at 10 years old with random people in comments sections (with the requisite swearing, violence threats, and slurs aimed at them) and the youtube teens are all really into their sexuality because that's how to be shocking now that punk rock and pot are mainstream. They all ask for pics and personal information, so it's endless battle to help a kid who is still a kid inside understand what is appropriate. Also what counts as personal information to an adult and a kid are dramatically different.
Also swearing and kissing whomever at the park like we did in the olden days are different due the ephemeral nature and the limited spread of facts to whomever was there. Now there's evidence.
Porn and whatnot an inescapable - that's table stakes now, even for young children, unless you block basically all media except the Disney channel.
It sucks.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:14 AM on February 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah, my kid gets into online fights at 10 years old with random people in comments sections (with the requisite swearing, violence threats, and slurs aimed at them) and the youtube teens are all really into their sexuality because that's how to be shocking now that punk rock and pot are mainstream. They all ask for pics and personal information, so it's endless battle to help a kid who is still a kid inside understand what is appropriate. Also what counts as personal information to an adult and a kid are dramatically different.
Also swearing and kissing whomever at the park like we did in the olden days are different due the ephemeral nature and the limited spread of facts to whomever was there. Now there's evidence.
Porn and whatnot an inescapable - that's table stakes now, even for young children, unless you block basically all media except the Disney channel.
It sucks.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:14 AM on February 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
I am a free range parent, online and off.
I want my kid to run into weird shit and ask me questions about it. I want him to learn to navigate online spaces - the greatest pile of knowledge and lies the world has ever known (we all know this is not hyperbole). I don't want him to think of interacting with the internet as "reward", it's just part of life.
When playing a boardgame, taking something apart, or going outside is less interesting than watching youtube, I will have failed (it hasn't happened yet - internet content is pedestrian in his world, not special). I am delaying social media as long as I can -- but ultimately I don't get to choose where socializing happens, and I don't want to ostracize him, he needs to learn how to navigate these spaces.
When he is on his own, ideally he is prepared for encountering new online and offline things by himself, recognizing when things are getting weird, and escalating.
I am hoping that these same skills can transfer to his parenting, since technological proficiency is not a prerequisite.
Assuming that they work. :) What a grand experiment parenting is.
posted by pol at 9:29 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
I want my kid to run into weird shit and ask me questions about it. I want him to learn to navigate online spaces - the greatest pile of knowledge and lies the world has ever known (we all know this is not hyperbole). I don't want him to think of interacting with the internet as "reward", it's just part of life.
When playing a boardgame, taking something apart, or going outside is less interesting than watching youtube, I will have failed (it hasn't happened yet - internet content is pedestrian in his world, not special). I am delaying social media as long as I can -- but ultimately I don't get to choose where socializing happens, and I don't want to ostracize him, he needs to learn how to navigate these spaces.
When he is on his own, ideally he is prepared for encountering new online and offline things by himself, recognizing when things are getting weird, and escalating.
I am hoping that these same skills can transfer to his parenting, since technological proficiency is not a prerequisite.
Assuming that they work. :) What a grand experiment parenting is.
posted by pol at 9:29 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is a tough one for parents to navigate, and there's no one-size-fits-all solution. When we gave our kid (now 16) their first phone when they were in 6th grade, and the only rules were "don't give strangers personal information, don't turn off location tracking". The location tracking isn't to know where the kid is at all times, it's more to find the phone in the dark recesses of the couch when it's on silent. We don't know the password to their phone. They have our credit card info stored and they use it for online purchases ("here's $35, I bought a Mitski t-shirt"). I've never looked through their search history. We trust them, because they've never given us a reason not to.
They were briefly TikTok famous and made a few friends around the world in that time, and actually got to meet one of those people when we travelled out of state a couple months ago and were within a few hours drive, and they hung out together for the day and had a ball.
But that's our kid, and our style.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 9:34 AM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
They were briefly TikTok famous and made a few friends around the world in that time, and actually got to meet one of those people when we travelled out of state a couple months ago and were within a few hours drive, and they hung out together for the day and had a ball.
But that's our kid, and our style.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 9:34 AM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
When playing a boardgame, taking something apart, or going outside is less interesting than watching youtube
That's a full 5 minutes for me [it's right there in the name for bored games :)], about the same for my kids. Also who plays board games with them or outside? Kids are different, some are social, some loners, some want to play with other kids, some siblings don't get along or are too far apart in age to have similar interests.
I can't judge as I really liked GI Joe as a kid, to play and watch on tv. If youtube had been available instead of VHS tapes, I'd have watched all day, at least some times.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:38 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
That's a full 5 minutes for me [it's right there in the name for bored games :)], about the same for my kids. Also who plays board games with them or outside? Kids are different, some are social, some loners, some want to play with other kids, some siblings don't get along or are too far apart in age to have similar interests.
I can't judge as I really liked GI Joe as a kid, to play and watch on tv. If youtube had been available instead of VHS tapes, I'd have watched all day, at least some times.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:38 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's probably good for the children to get used to the tyranny and omnipresent surveillance early on in their development.
I think this was meant as sarcasm, but... yeah, kinda. There's a pretty valid lesson to be learned about what you do on computers (and now, phones) being very much not private unless you take very explicit precautions.
It seems a lot of kids actually understand this (see dirtyoldtown's comment above, about their 12-y/o keeping receipts), but it seems like one of those things that you either get taught explicitly, or you end up learning the hard (or just really embarrassing) way. I'd rather my kid learn it explicitly as part of learning how computers and phones work, rather than Rudy Giuliani-ing themselves in front of peers later.
"Don't put shit in email unless you want it read aloud in front of everyone you know" is a lesson that I learned the hard and unpleasant way as a young adult. (In fairness, my parents didn't really do email when I was young, or they probably would have cautioned me about it. But I think they saw the stuff I did with the modem as an extension of the phone system, which they assumed was basically ephemeral and private, unless you were, like, John Gotti or a Soviet spy or something.) In the spirit of generational progress, I'd like my kid to perhaps learn that lesson in a less-severe and consequential way. I'm sure I'll have my own blind spots and have my own failures as a parent, but no need to repeat them two generations running.
The nature of privacy has fundamentally changed in the past three decades, and it's not coming back. That's not to say you can't have privacy, but the situations in which it can be assumed are different from what they once were. I can lament this change on one hand, but on the other, still want my kid to understand the reality of the situation they are being born into. They deserve a fair warning.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:40 AM on February 9, 2022 [13 favorites]
I think this was meant as sarcasm, but... yeah, kinda. There's a pretty valid lesson to be learned about what you do on computers (and now, phones) being very much not private unless you take very explicit precautions.
It seems a lot of kids actually understand this (see dirtyoldtown's comment above, about their 12-y/o keeping receipts), but it seems like one of those things that you either get taught explicitly, or you end up learning the hard (or just really embarrassing) way. I'd rather my kid learn it explicitly as part of learning how computers and phones work, rather than Rudy Giuliani-ing themselves in front of peers later.
"Don't put shit in email unless you want it read aloud in front of everyone you know" is a lesson that I learned the hard and unpleasant way as a young adult. (In fairness, my parents didn't really do email when I was young, or they probably would have cautioned me about it. But I think they saw the stuff I did with the modem as an extension of the phone system, which they assumed was basically ephemeral and private, unless you were, like, John Gotti or a Soviet spy or something.) In the spirit of generational progress, I'd like my kid to perhaps learn that lesson in a less-severe and consequential way. I'm sure I'll have my own blind spots and have my own failures as a parent, but no need to repeat them two generations running.
The nature of privacy has fundamentally changed in the past three decades, and it's not coming back. That's not to say you can't have privacy, but the situations in which it can be assumed are different from what they once were. I can lament this change on one hand, but on the other, still want my kid to understand the reality of the situation they are being born into. They deserve a fair warning.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:40 AM on February 9, 2022 [13 favorites]
The one immutable law of parenting is that literally any/every approach you can take with your kid, someone is going to shake their head ruefully about how you're ruining them for life.
What is the "balanced" amount of corporal punishment to employ on a child?
Yes, child rearing is a complicated subject and everyone has different views on it.
Yes, some of those views _are_ wrong and actually _will_ ruin them for life. I know a few such people who navigate adulthood while managing their dysfunction, some better than others.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:50 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
What is the "balanced" amount of corporal punishment to employ on a child?
Yes, child rearing is a complicated subject and everyone has different views on it.
Yes, some of those views _are_ wrong and actually _will_ ruin them for life. I know a few such people who navigate adulthood while managing their dysfunction, some better than others.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:50 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
In the spirit of generational progress, I'd like my kid to perhaps learn that lesson in a less-severe and consequential way.
for me this is good parenting and/or early-mid childhood education in a nutshell. It's not about protecting children from every imaginable harm/negativity, it's about guiding their experience through the ever expanding minefield of complexity of the so-called real world with them suffering as little harm as possible; but not to the extent that they don't learn how to deal with these threats (and variations thereof) as they arise in the future. There is no armour that can protect you from every threat but there are tactics that you can evolve to serve you in all manner of circumstances.
posted by philip-random at 9:57 AM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
for me this is good parenting and/or early-mid childhood education in a nutshell. It's not about protecting children from every imaginable harm/negativity, it's about guiding their experience through the ever expanding minefield of complexity of the so-called real world with them suffering as little harm as possible; but not to the extent that they don't learn how to deal with these threats (and variations thereof) as they arise in the future. There is no armour that can protect you from every threat but there are tactics that you can evolve to serve you in all manner of circumstances.
posted by philip-random at 9:57 AM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
A University of Central Florida study ... found ... that teens who were monitored were ... more likely to be exposed to unwanted explicit content and to bullying.
Being curious about the implied causation here I thought I'd look at the paper but it turns out the Wired article that leads this post refers only to a Gizmodo article that also doesn't link to the study, and points out that the quoted study has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal. The website of the conference where this is being presented is somewhat broken for me; I can't get any results for the author "Ghosh" (based on this URL in the Gizmodo article -> "https://chi2018.acm.org/technical-program/?search=Ghosh") Goggling Ghosh does result in a number of similar recent papers.
posted by achrise at 10:10 AM on February 9, 2022
Being curious about the implied causation here I thought I'd look at the paper but it turns out the Wired article that leads this post refers only to a Gizmodo article that also doesn't link to the study, and points out that the quoted study has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal. The website of the conference where this is being presented is somewhat broken for me; I can't get any results for the author "Ghosh" (based on this URL in the Gizmodo article -> "https://chi2018.acm.org/technical-program/?search=Ghosh") Goggling Ghosh does result in a number of similar recent papers.
posted by achrise at 10:10 AM on February 9, 2022
It makes sense to me. When a kid is born they know how to do like four things tops. They have to learn or be taught every other thing. In most cases their brain has to develop enough to be capable of understanding concepts like "object permanence".
So they need a caregiver to look after their every other need and protect them from every danger beyond those four things. So it makes sense that the caregiver would know where the kid is and what they're doing more or less all of the time.
When they're adults they will have to look out for ALL of their own needs and protect themselves from all dangers.
You have to navigate and guide them from one extreme to the other and it's not a straight line and everyone's line is different. Some people are going to fall too far to one side or the other as they go. All we can really do is learn, grow, and try to do better.
I always like to point out with this kind of stuff that none of this requires having or directly raising children of their own. Directly or indirectly, everyone helps shape my child's life and I'm thankful for everyone that tries to make a positive impact on him.
posted by VTX at 10:19 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
So they need a caregiver to look after their every other need and protect them from every danger beyond those four things. So it makes sense that the caregiver would know where the kid is and what they're doing more or less all of the time.
When they're adults they will have to look out for ALL of their own needs and protect themselves from all dangers.
You have to navigate and guide them from one extreme to the other and it's not a straight line and everyone's line is different. Some people are going to fall too far to one side or the other as they go. All we can really do is learn, grow, and try to do better.
I always like to point out with this kind of stuff that none of this requires having or directly raising children of their own. Directly or indirectly, everyone helps shape my child's life and I'm thankful for everyone that tries to make a positive impact on him.
posted by VTX at 10:19 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
what's really helpful is to take a discussion where many of us can admit there's a wide range of factors to consider, and make analogies to the amount of beating you can administer to a child before it's "too much"
That's just great.. Sweigart, would you care to itemize the comments so far where people _are_ wrong? why not cut to the chase and spare a lot of scrolling, reading, exchange of ideas etc. I'm not sure why you chose the wording you used, forgive me if I'm taking the worst interpretation needlessly
posted by elkevelvet at 10:31 AM on February 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
That's just great.. Sweigart, would you care to itemize the comments so far where people _are_ wrong? why not cut to the chase and spare a lot of scrolling, reading, exchange of ideas etc. I'm not sure why you chose the wording you used, forgive me if I'm taking the worst interpretation needlessly
posted by elkevelvet at 10:31 AM on February 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
"Don't put shit in email unless you want it read aloud in front of everyone you know" is a lesson that I learned the hard and unpleasant way as a young adult. (In fairness, my parents didn't really do email when I was young, or they probably would have cautioned me about it. But I think they saw the stuff I did with the modem as an extension of the phone system, which they assumed was basically ephemeral and private, unless you were, like, John Gotti or a Soviet spy or something.) In the spirit of generational progress, I'd like my kid to perhaps learn that lesson in a less-severe and consequential way. I'm sure I'll have my own blind spots and have my own failures as a parent, but no need to repeat them two generations running.
The nature of privacy has fundamentally changed in the past three decades, and it's not coming back. That's not to say you can't have privacy, but the situations in which it can be assumed are different from what they once were. I can lament this change on one hand, but on the other, still want my kid to understand the reality of the situation they are being born into. They deserve a fair warning.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:40 AM on February 9 [5 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
my comment was kind of playing off a few previous comments, not entirely seriously. Your response was really thoughtful though and I appreciate it. For me, I learned these lessons early, because I was the one listening to phone calls and reading emails. I figured pretty quick that if a kid could figure it out.... probably not that private after all.
Honestly the discussion here has been really great and I'm glad to hear everyone's thoughts and experiences!
posted by some loser at 10:57 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
The nature of privacy has fundamentally changed in the past three decades, and it's not coming back. That's not to say you can't have privacy, but the situations in which it can be assumed are different from what they once were. I can lament this change on one hand, but on the other, still want my kid to understand the reality of the situation they are being born into. They deserve a fair warning.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:40 AM on February 9 [5 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
my comment was kind of playing off a few previous comments, not entirely seriously. Your response was really thoughtful though and I appreciate it. For me, I learned these lessons early, because I was the one listening to phone calls and reading emails. I figured pretty quick that if a kid could figure it out.... probably not that private after all.
Honestly the discussion here has been really great and I'm glad to hear everyone's thoughts and experiences!
posted by some loser at 10:57 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've been on the corporate side of this question and actively worked on systems that monitored user comms along our pre-teen gaming platforms to interdict on bullying, grooming and self-harm behavior.
It always felt a bit weird to me, but ultimately landed on the side of what we were doing was good. Chat logs were used to show why kids were banned. We reached out to parents about other discussions when they crossed certain boundaries - like grooming, suicidal threats or active shooter threats. (We did actively call law enforcement as well in very, very specific circumstances)
I was shocked and scared by how many times we stopped a suicide in progress.
And so if I had a kid in this day and age, I know I'd struggle with wanting to respect their autonomy because autonomy is great and wanting to keep them from making the same mistakes I saw happening in real time.
(I always felt conflicted about essentially being part of the surveillance corporate state)
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:06 AM on February 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
It always felt a bit weird to me, but ultimately landed on the side of what we were doing was good. Chat logs were used to show why kids were banned. We reached out to parents about other discussions when they crossed certain boundaries - like grooming, suicidal threats or active shooter threats. (We did actively call law enforcement as well in very, very specific circumstances)
I was shocked and scared by how many times we stopped a suicide in progress.
And so if I had a kid in this day and age, I know I'd struggle with wanting to respect their autonomy because autonomy is great and wanting to keep them from making the same mistakes I saw happening in real time.
(I always felt conflicted about essentially being part of the surveillance corporate state)
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:06 AM on February 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
I honestly forget that other parents aren't as free range as we are. They casually mention monitoring their kid's search history or something and I am taken aback.
Actually, the other night, our kid (13 y/o) was at the E-Sports center and wasn't having fun and they just decided to walk home (a little over a mile). I would've rather they let me pick them up or at least let me know they were walking. But it's a walk they've done before, through well-lit suburban streets in our own neighborhood. NBD, really. But to hear one of the other parents tell it, that was risking death.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:27 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Actually, the other night, our kid (13 y/o) was at the E-Sports center and wasn't having fun and they just decided to walk home (a little over a mile). I would've rather they let me pick them up or at least let me know they were walking. But it's a walk they've done before, through well-lit suburban streets in our own neighborhood. NBD, really. But to hear one of the other parents tell it, that was risking death.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:27 AM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
what's really helpful is to take a discussion where many of us can admit there's a wide range of factors to consider, and make analogies to the amount of beating you can administer to a child before it's "too much"
My comment quotes and is in direct response to one that states how every approach to raising kids will have someone "shake their head ruefully" in response. That's too light a tone for a heavy subject for me to let pass without comment. You'll have lots of people criticizing the way a person raises their kids, but that doesn't mean some things parents do under the banner of trying-to-raise-their-kids-right aren't unambiguously wrong. This Wired article about our current not-the-fun-kind cyberpunk dystopia goes into plenty examples of that, and I'm sure the parents would defend their actions with a "let's agree to disagree".
For some things the answer isn't somewhere in the middle, hence my comment. And that isn't what DirtyOldTown was implying, but it skates too close to a kind of bothsidesism for me to ignore.
That's just great.. Sweigart, would you care to itemize the comments so far where people _are_ wrong?
I did.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:38 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
My comment quotes and is in direct response to one that states how every approach to raising kids will have someone "shake their head ruefully" in response. That's too light a tone for a heavy subject for me to let pass without comment. You'll have lots of people criticizing the way a person raises their kids, but that doesn't mean some things parents do under the banner of trying-to-raise-their-kids-right aren't unambiguously wrong. This Wired article about our current not-the-fun-kind cyberpunk dystopia goes into plenty examples of that, and I'm sure the parents would defend their actions with a "let's agree to disagree".
For some things the answer isn't somewhere in the middle, hence my comment. And that isn't what DirtyOldTown was implying, but it skates too close to a kind of bothsidesism for me to ignore.
That's just great.. Sweigart, would you care to itemize the comments so far where people _are_ wrong?
I did.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:38 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Bad and abusive parents exist -- I've met the varied results of many over the course of my life -- and technology does nothing to change that. It may even amplify the problem with the power of automation. Well-intentioned parents with bad taste in technology also exist and may even outnumber them, considering how many people have terrible taste in software and services.
Choosing and implementing a technology to solve any problem is ultimately an engineering decision and I'm of a mind that any act of engineering that doesn't prioritize human and ethical factors is bad engineering. Unfortunately, when most people make technology choices they are not attempting to do that work, instead thinking they are making purchasing decisions.
posted by majick at 12:08 PM on February 9, 2022
Choosing and implementing a technology to solve any problem is ultimately an engineering decision and I'm of a mind that any act of engineering that doesn't prioritize human and ethical factors is bad engineering. Unfortunately, when most people make technology choices they are not attempting to do that work, instead thinking they are making purchasing decisions.
posted by majick at 12:08 PM on February 9, 2022
I'm not gonna reply, I will just note that my observation that a parent's best efforts will inevitably be met with ominous, accusatory tones elicited a response wondering the specific amount of child beating I was okay with.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:14 PM on February 9, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:14 PM on February 9, 2022 [16 favorites]
As on online parenting discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a parenting decision being compared to child abuse approaches 1.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:43 PM on February 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 12:43 PM on February 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
Just because I do something for my 10 year old does not imply I will do the same when they are 20.
Sincerely glad that your kid is getting help, really, but... when do you stop, and why?
When they have demonstrated they’ve outgrown it? I dress my 4 year old, but not my 10 year old. I tuck in my 10 year old at night, but not my 13 year old.
I’m happy to give up oversight, the condition we set is if she’s having thoughts of self-harm, she needs to communicate it. If that isn’t happening we’ll have to curtail her privacy temporarily. Irreversible physical harm trumps the temporary right to privacy. Particularly at an age where they feel invincible.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:46 PM on February 9, 2022
Sincerely glad that your kid is getting help, really, but... when do you stop, and why?
When they have demonstrated they’ve outgrown it? I dress my 4 year old, but not my 10 year old. I tuck in my 10 year old at night, but not my 13 year old.
I’m happy to give up oversight, the condition we set is if she’s having thoughts of self-harm, she needs to communicate it. If that isn’t happening we’ll have to curtail her privacy temporarily. Irreversible physical harm trumps the temporary right to privacy. Particularly at an age where they feel invincible.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:46 PM on February 9, 2022
the probability of a parenting decision being compared to child abuse
The article is about parents tracking the movements of their child, spying on their texts and emails, and viewing their browsing and search results history (effectively mindreading, since it shows what they're curious and thinking about).
We're already comparing this to child abuse, as we should. Or simply abuse, in the cases where parents extend this into their children's adulthood.
And considering that the history of child abuse is a long line of adults downplaying the severity of it, I'm much more comfortable taking it too seriously than too lightly.
posted by AlSweigart at 1:00 PM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
The article is about parents tracking the movements of their child, spying on their texts and emails, and viewing their browsing and search results history (effectively mindreading, since it shows what they're curious and thinking about).
We're already comparing this to child abuse, as we should. Or simply abuse, in the cases where parents extend this into their children's adulthood.
And considering that the history of child abuse is a long line of adults downplaying the severity of it, I'm much more comfortable taking it too seriously than too lightly.
posted by AlSweigart at 1:00 PM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
like a lot of MeFi discussions, many here are also commenting and sharing personal observations, concerns, successes and failures. It's not just about the article and sticking to script.
are you suggesting that any approach to monitor/guide or in some way mind how your children engage in online spaces is somehow abusive? I mean, I don't think you are but it's hard to tell with the combative tone
posted by elkevelvet at 1:40 PM on February 9, 2022
are you suggesting that any approach to monitor/guide or in some way mind how your children engage in online spaces is somehow abusive? I mean, I don't think you are but it's hard to tell with the combative tone
posted by elkevelvet at 1:40 PM on February 9, 2022
My daughter's 10 and is extremely private about everything. If she's on her laptop and me or her mother come into the room then she'll quickly close it to hide what she's doing (usually watching origami videos, drawing something, or playing a game on Poki). Her accounts are all set up as a kid with me as the parent so I guess I have the ability to monitor what she's up to but it seems so unnecessary right now. I don't know if I'll be as relaxed about it when she's a couple of years older though.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:58 PM on February 9, 2022
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:58 PM on February 9, 2022
My son has had his own internet-connected laptop since he was a little over 1 year old.
I've always drilled him on online safety and privacy but other than that I've never monitored what he does online.
He's 14 now and doing great.
I'm not saying this should apply to all kids, of course, and he's probably lucky in having two very present parents in a stable relationship with normal and flexible work schedules who always have time for him, etc.
But it's worked for us.
posted by signal at 2:10 PM on February 9, 2022
I've always drilled him on online safety and privacy but other than that I've never monitored what he does online.
He's 14 now and doing great.
I'm not saying this should apply to all kids, of course, and he's probably lucky in having two very present parents in a stable relationship with normal and flexible work schedules who always have time for him, etc.
But it's worked for us.
posted by signal at 2:10 PM on February 9, 2022
I am not and never will be a parent, so I'm sure some will think I don't get to have an opinion here, but I'll say it anyway: Some people are being incredibly blithe about the damage that can be inflicted to a young mind by being exposed to the wrong things online.
I am 48 and didn't get online until my early 20's. There are things I saw back then that still make me tear up to think about. I was damaged by the video I saw of a chick being stomped by a woman's high heel. There were other videos posted that apparently involved cats and dogs, thank god I first clicked into the chick one, as hard as that was to take. I have no idea how I found that stuff, but I certainly wasn't looking for it, and the titling gave no clue as to what it really was.
There is violent porn, there are child predators, this isn't just about being exposed to some Playboy-level porn or some upsetting ideas. Whatever solutions parents come up with, the entirely hands-off, free range one horrifies me. While it's great to foster a relationship with your child where they come to you to talk about things they've seen, it won't be able to fix the damage once done of seeing a snuff video... or violent porn... or suicide.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 2:14 PM on February 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am 48 and didn't get online until my early 20's. There are things I saw back then that still make me tear up to think about. I was damaged by the video I saw of a chick being stomped by a woman's high heel. There were other videos posted that apparently involved cats and dogs, thank god I first clicked into the chick one, as hard as that was to take. I have no idea how I found that stuff, but I certainly wasn't looking for it, and the titling gave no clue as to what it really was.
There is violent porn, there are child predators, this isn't just about being exposed to some Playboy-level porn or some upsetting ideas. Whatever solutions parents come up with, the entirely hands-off, free range one horrifies me. While it's great to foster a relationship with your child where they come to you to talk about things they've seen, it won't be able to fix the damage once done of seeing a snuff video... or violent porn... or suicide.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 2:14 PM on February 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
I have no idea how I found that stuff, but I certainly wasn't looking for it
This is something that parental filters would (hopefully) prevent, but not surveillance. A parent reviewing a child's browser history would assume the child was looking for it. The kid could say it was an accident, and the parent may or may not believe them. If it's a school administrator finding it in a student's browser history: they definitely won't. And the punitive fallout from that is going to be worse than the original upsetting video.
As Cardinal Richelieu said in the 1600s, "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I can find a reason in them to have him hanged."
posted by AlSweigart at 2:35 PM on February 9, 2022
This is something that parental filters would (hopefully) prevent, but not surveillance. A parent reviewing a child's browser history would assume the child was looking for it. The kid could say it was an accident, and the parent may or may not believe them. If it's a school administrator finding it in a student's browser history: they definitely won't. And the punitive fallout from that is going to be worse than the original upsetting video.
As Cardinal Richelieu said in the 1600s, "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I can find a reason in them to have him hanged."
posted by AlSweigart at 2:35 PM on February 9, 2022
I've been through the "my kid looked up porn" roulette and blocked YouTube and the kid worked out how to get around it bad part of that is the skills I teach them. One being: experiment. The other being: this is designed to eat your brain.
We don't just talk about radicalism and pipelines - they are a non-binary queer kid with Black and First Nations friends and family so there is less of a foothold and a whole lot of aggro in their tiny frame itching to fight them - but the attention economy and the way online experiences are made to sell you something. Keep you engaged.
We have always been a family that respects privacy - I probably keep too much to myself and the idea of being tracked would make me cut someone out of my life - and online is not different. The situations where I would invade that privacy in person are the same for online: psychological or physical danger. My kid has a phone for that reason, we live close enough they have walked to school on their own since they were 8, but shit happens. Cyclones or storms happen, mama having to do something and needing to give you instructions happens, and the phone makes them safer. It also gives them music and games. And a connection to their friends.
There is an element of keeping open comms that makes a difference, but it's also giving them the tools to understand the structures they're dealing with. It's not just media online - I found a lot of extreme porn prior to the internet and it fucked me up good - it's the system. It's the trackers and the algorithms and the bigotry woven into those things.
I'm no sysadmin. I am a media studies professor with a specialisation in digital humanities. So that's the angle I take (while leaning on sysadmin buddies to do the tech) (I feed them good in return).
Parenting is hard. Harder as things go on, as more and more companies and industries exploit humanity. If necessary I can turn out location tracking but as a rule it's not on and my kid knows that. I'd be appalled at any partner wanting that on my device.
Because in the end, the most dangerous thing for my kid is the men already in their life. That's STILL the vector, even with technology, moreso than randoms. I don't have any illusions about that. All I can do is give my kid the tools to protect themselves, and to be open about it. Because if I tell them the location is so I can keep them safe and the tracking is for their safety, that sets up a precedent I don't want.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:50 PM on February 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
We don't just talk about radicalism and pipelines - they are a non-binary queer kid with Black and First Nations friends and family so there is less of a foothold and a whole lot of aggro in their tiny frame itching to fight them - but the attention economy and the way online experiences are made to sell you something. Keep you engaged.
We have always been a family that respects privacy - I probably keep too much to myself and the idea of being tracked would make me cut someone out of my life - and online is not different. The situations where I would invade that privacy in person are the same for online: psychological or physical danger. My kid has a phone for that reason, we live close enough they have walked to school on their own since they were 8, but shit happens. Cyclones or storms happen, mama having to do something and needing to give you instructions happens, and the phone makes them safer. It also gives them music and games. And a connection to their friends.
There is an element of keeping open comms that makes a difference, but it's also giving them the tools to understand the structures they're dealing with. It's not just media online - I found a lot of extreme porn prior to the internet and it fucked me up good - it's the system. It's the trackers and the algorithms and the bigotry woven into those things.
I'm no sysadmin. I am a media studies professor with a specialisation in digital humanities. So that's the angle I take (while leaning on sysadmin buddies to do the tech) (I feed them good in return).
Parenting is hard. Harder as things go on, as more and more companies and industries exploit humanity. If necessary I can turn out location tracking but as a rule it's not on and my kid knows that. I'd be appalled at any partner wanting that on my device.
Because in the end, the most dangerous thing for my kid is the men already in their life. That's STILL the vector, even with technology, moreso than randoms. I don't have any illusions about that. All I can do is give my kid the tools to protect themselves, and to be open about it. Because if I tell them the location is so I can keep them safe and the tracking is for their safety, that sets up a precedent I don't want.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:50 PM on February 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
If she's on her laptop and me or her mother come into the room then she'll quickly close it to hide what she's doing [...]
I taught my children to do that from a young age, along with looking away while someone is entering passwords, asking before peeking, and a fleet of other small technology-related courtesies. I do very much consider it a courtesy to clamp laptops and pocket devices not only for privacy reasons of their own (other non-parental interlopers may be less benign) but as a show of acknowledgement for the fact that another human is present and is a higher priority than spending their eyeball.
There are, of course, exceptions. Don't look away from the screen while healing the raid. Don't interrupt an online voice or video or other synchronous conversation for a person walking by. That is, the exception to whipping your laptop closed is when there's a human on the other end of the screen there, as well.
posted by majick at 3:22 PM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I taught my children to do that from a young age, along with looking away while someone is entering passwords, asking before peeking, and a fleet of other small technology-related courtesies. I do very much consider it a courtesy to clamp laptops and pocket devices not only for privacy reasons of their own (other non-parental interlopers may be less benign) but as a show of acknowledgement for the fact that another human is present and is a higher priority than spending their eyeball.
There are, of course, exceptions. Don't look away from the screen while healing the raid. Don't interrupt an online voice or video or other synchronous conversation for a person walking by. That is, the exception to whipping your laptop closed is when there's a human on the other end of the screen there, as well.
posted by majick at 3:22 PM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was a teenager who had a lot of mental health issues, talked to strangers, and looked up weird porn on the internet. Metafilter is one of the places I secretly browsed. I had a personal, unmonitored PC and a broadband connection. Parental surveillance would have done nothing for me because the problem was a lack of appropriate parental engagement. I wasn't able to start solving my problems until I had the full independence and agency of an adult.
posted by airmail at 3:47 PM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by airmail at 3:47 PM on February 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
A lot of good discussion and info here, and heartfelt engagement on a really tough issue. I'll say that I really believe my kids (both girls, both under 12) should have private lives and so, while we limit their computer use, we do not monitor it. We did not use baby monitors when they were kids, and we don't monitor them online in any way, other than requiring that we approve whatever apps they download to their (very limited) devices. So they know what we know, and they know what we don't know, about what they're doing.
But I wanted to share this particular story, which I think is important: The other night my oldest was reading (a paper book) before bed, in her room. I came in and asked her to put it away and turn off the light, and go to sleep. She said okay. I left, then waited a minute — I know she's really into this book right now — and came back in, and she had her light back on. We both laughed, and she put the book away and I went upstairs.
About 15 minutes later, she came back up to tell me that she had to go to the bathroom, so she grabbed the book and read it, and she felt bad about it. And I was able to tell her it's not a big deal, but that it was now bedtime.
It's a small thing -- but if she were feeling/being surveilled — if she grew up not knowing exactly what I knew and what I didn't about what she was doing at any time — she would probably never have the opportunity to do this, since for all she knew, I would have been watching or paying attention. And if I wasn't, it would be a relief. And I would never have the opportunity to tell her not to worry about it. Even if you never do anything with the info you gather it has an effect. And even if you never tell them at some point they know.
posted by heyitsgogi at 3:49 PM on February 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
But I wanted to share this particular story, which I think is important: The other night my oldest was reading (a paper book) before bed, in her room. I came in and asked her to put it away and turn off the light, and go to sleep. She said okay. I left, then waited a minute — I know she's really into this book right now — and came back in, and she had her light back on. We both laughed, and she put the book away and I went upstairs.
About 15 minutes later, she came back up to tell me that she had to go to the bathroom, so she grabbed the book and read it, and she felt bad about it. And I was able to tell her it's not a big deal, but that it was now bedtime.
It's a small thing -- but if she were feeling/being surveilled — if she grew up not knowing exactly what I knew and what I didn't about what she was doing at any time — she would probably never have the opportunity to do this, since for all she knew, I would have been watching or paying attention. And if I wasn't, it would be a relief. And I would never have the opportunity to tell her not to worry about it. Even if you never do anything with the info you gather it has an effect. And even if you never tell them at some point they know.
posted by heyitsgogi at 3:49 PM on February 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
Some people are being incredibly blithe about the damage that can be inflicted to a young mind by being exposed to the wrong things online.
It's not so black and white.
Speaking about the damage that constant parental surveillance can do to a young person's mental health and relationships is not the same as saying that a young person can't also be damaged by things they come across online.
Being appalled and angry at parents who constantly surveil their older children without good cause is not the same as being appalled and angry at parents who only surveil their younger children, or who only surveil their children when they've demonstrated specific causes for concern.
And, while I understand that people might have been put off by AlSweigart's tone, I think they have a very good point about how to prevent this type of exposure: Filters are better than surveillance.
For children who are old enough, internet literacy is probably the best preventative at all.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:10 PM on February 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
It's not so black and white.
Speaking about the damage that constant parental surveillance can do to a young person's mental health and relationships is not the same as saying that a young person can't also be damaged by things they come across online.
Being appalled and angry at parents who constantly surveil their older children without good cause is not the same as being appalled and angry at parents who only surveil their younger children, or who only surveil their children when they've demonstrated specific causes for concern.
And, while I understand that people might have been put off by AlSweigart's tone, I think they have a very good point about how to prevent this type of exposure: Filters are better than surveillance.
For children who are old enough, internet literacy is probably the best preventative at all.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:10 PM on February 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don't understand how it's very, very frequently stated flatly that using these devices and making them available to our children aren't choices, that it's a simple necessity that we do so. I don't think that's self-evident, particularly when it comes to kids.
I mean, it should be self evident to everyone who thinks children are people. As inexpensive as cell phones are these days (my kid paid $120, and $15 a month), the major limiting factor in giving cell phones to kids is their developmental capacity to own it responsibly. If someone thinks an adult's need for Twitter and Candy Crush is somehow more legitimate/real/respectable than a 13 yr old's desire for Minecraft and TikTok... that's rather disrespectful of the humanity of children.
Everyone needs to be able to text their friends, if their friends are available via text. How is this not self evident?
posted by MiraK at 4:11 PM on February 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
I mean, it should be self evident to everyone who thinks children are people. As inexpensive as cell phones are these days (my kid paid $120, and $15 a month), the major limiting factor in giving cell phones to kids is their developmental capacity to own it responsibly. If someone thinks an adult's need for Twitter and Candy Crush is somehow more legitimate/real/respectable than a 13 yr old's desire for Minecraft and TikTok... that's rather disrespectful of the humanity of children.
Everyone needs to be able to text their friends, if their friends are available via text. How is this not self evident?
posted by MiraK at 4:11 PM on February 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is just such a different world from the one I grew up in.
My parents were probably unusual even for the time, but they did not control or know what I was doing or where I was from an early age when I was away from the house — which was most of the daylight hours — and I often came home in pretty bad shape.
When I was five, I came home from a rock fight with a severely broken nose which was leaking spinal fluid; earlier that year I'd had second degree burns up and down the left side of my body because I’d been riding my bike around and around an incinerator someone had put on the poured foundation of a house that never got built, lost speed as I got too close, fell against the incinerator and was pinned by my bike for a moment or two; later that summer I tripped and fell into a ditch where a broken whiskey bottle was sticking up and required twenty stitches to close the wound on my right palm; and among hazards of another kind a little before that, two of my twelve year old sister's school friends came up to me as I was playing in tall grass a couple of hundred yards from any houses and offered to show me theirs if I’d show them mine and I agreed. My sister somehow found out about that and broke it up before it got as far as I wanted it to though, which I resented for at least a year. I did not feel like my life was anything out of the ordinary at the time.
And that was a mere beginning of a theme which played itself out with many crescendos, glissandos, and changes of key up through junior high. But my parents simply accepted the anxiety and the risks, I guess, and I would have been extremely upset and rebellious if they'd tried to keep me from doing what I wanted. I think they were afraid they'd break my spirit or stunt my initiative if they were more protective. My sense is that this attitude (toward boys) was fairly common in the 50s, though most other parents may have thought mine were taking it to extremes.
posted by jamjam at 8:04 PM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
My parents were probably unusual even for the time, but they did not control or know what I was doing or where I was from an early age when I was away from the house — which was most of the daylight hours — and I often came home in pretty bad shape.
When I was five, I came home from a rock fight with a severely broken nose which was leaking spinal fluid; earlier that year I'd had second degree burns up and down the left side of my body because I’d been riding my bike around and around an incinerator someone had put on the poured foundation of a house that never got built, lost speed as I got too close, fell against the incinerator and was pinned by my bike for a moment or two; later that summer I tripped and fell into a ditch where a broken whiskey bottle was sticking up and required twenty stitches to close the wound on my right palm; and among hazards of another kind a little before that, two of my twelve year old sister's school friends came up to me as I was playing in tall grass a couple of hundred yards from any houses and offered to show me theirs if I’d show them mine and I agreed. My sister somehow found out about that and broke it up before it got as far as I wanted it to though, which I resented for at least a year. I did not feel like my life was anything out of the ordinary at the time.
And that was a mere beginning of a theme which played itself out with many crescendos, glissandos, and changes of key up through junior high. But my parents simply accepted the anxiety and the risks, I guess, and I would have been extremely upset and rebellious if they'd tried to keep me from doing what I wanted. I think they were afraid they'd break my spirit or stunt my initiative if they were more protective. My sense is that this attitude (toward boys) was fairly common in the 50s, though most other parents may have thought mine were taking it to extremes.
posted by jamjam at 8:04 PM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I remember in the early 80s, I had a summer job with the United Way at a big mall event that would provide an identity sheet for parents to fill out with all the physical particulars of their children. The idea was that if a kid was snatched, having this document already prepared might save valuable time in the search - but really it was a performative, profile raising event calculated to feed off the paranoia fo the times. The weirdest thing was that it also included fingerprinting and me a couple other college age kids were supposed to do it. We were OVERRUN with people. I remember learning that there were about 20 different ways to spell Sean/Shawn. The trick to moving fast was getting the kids to loosen up their arms for a clear impression but there were disturbing moments with a few of the older kids who were especially resistant and terrified. I remember saying, ‘I don’t want to break her arm!!’ and the parent tying to bully me into forcing the kid even harder. The best I could come up with was throwing a few ink pads at them and telling them to do it themselves. It felt bad though, you just knew the parent was playing some evil mind trick on the kid by claiming they had their fingerprints on record.
posted by brachiopod at 8:54 PM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by brachiopod at 8:54 PM on February 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
My kid is growing up in a world where not being able to be reached by text will result in lack of contact with doctors and school and every other institution.
My kid is growing up in a world where if you don't have basic digital skills you will not be able to engage in higher education, most government institutions, and nearly every job.
Access to the tools is not able to be replaced by lectures and diagrams. And yes, in the weeks and months of lockdown it benefited my child immensely to text their friends. It benefited those friends too. Having a form of contact that is not verbal is important and helpful.
It means I can send them a text if I won't be home when they get home. They can text me and I can get their textbooks sorted on the spot. We can send each other silly memes. They can read and watch things with their friends.
I am not as vociferous about privacy for kids as some, but I'm definitely on the permissive end - and I am not going to prevent my kid having access to the tools that they will use every day of their adult life (barring unforeseen circumstances) (because even as a person who worked at sea my household got the internet so my dad could access weather data, because it is nearly every single job now).
I'd rather set my kid up with the skills they need now, with experience and hands on learning now, than what I've seen a whole generation do and not be familiar enough not just with the tech but the difference in communication that occurs online, and end up unable to tell the difference between a breathless bit of misinformation and actual government reports, or know why someone would do that.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:40 AM on February 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
My kid is growing up in a world where if you don't have basic digital skills you will not be able to engage in higher education, most government institutions, and nearly every job.
Access to the tools is not able to be replaced by lectures and diagrams. And yes, in the weeks and months of lockdown it benefited my child immensely to text their friends. It benefited those friends too. Having a form of contact that is not verbal is important and helpful.
It means I can send them a text if I won't be home when they get home. They can text me and I can get their textbooks sorted on the spot. We can send each other silly memes. They can read and watch things with their friends.
I am not as vociferous about privacy for kids as some, but I'm definitely on the permissive end - and I am not going to prevent my kid having access to the tools that they will use every day of their adult life (barring unforeseen circumstances) (because even as a person who worked at sea my household got the internet so my dad could access weather data, because it is nearly every single job now).
I'd rather set my kid up with the skills they need now, with experience and hands on learning now, than what I've seen a whole generation do and not be familiar enough not just with the tech but the difference in communication that occurs online, and end up unable to tell the difference between a breathless bit of misinformation and actual government reports, or know why someone would do that.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:40 AM on February 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
You've just implied you're not a person if you don't have one of these devices on you around the clock, even as a child.
WTF?! NO! I'm saying that wanting one of these devices is a human desire, and is a valid human desire whether the person is an adult or a child.
> You flatly say that "everybody needs to text their friends" -- but do they? I know a number of people who don't text anybody, ever. They do just fine.
One more WTF!! Do you really think my comment was a screed on how texting should become compulsory for all? I'm saying everyone needs to BE ABLE TOo text their friends, and everyone's desire to text their friends is equally valid whether they are children or adults. Please stop twisting my words.
You're the one who is dehumanizing children by saying it isn't obvious to you why children's desires and needs might be just as valid as adults'.
posted by MiraK at 6:09 AM on February 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
WTF?! NO! I'm saying that wanting one of these devices is a human desire, and is a valid human desire whether the person is an adult or a child.
> You flatly say that "everybody needs to text their friends" -- but do they? I know a number of people who don't text anybody, ever. They do just fine.
One more WTF!! Do you really think my comment was a screed on how texting should become compulsory for all? I'm saying everyone needs to BE ABLE TOo text their friends, and everyone's desire to text their friends is equally valid whether they are children or adults. Please stop twisting my words.
You're the one who is dehumanizing children by saying it isn't obvious to you why children's desires and needs might be just as valid as adults'.
posted by MiraK at 6:09 AM on February 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
A parent reviewing a child's browser history would assume the child was looking for it.
I think this is definitely true in very authoritarian houses or in particular communities (some religious communities come to mind.) I will say though, in my Toronto suburb, I think it would not be the norm to assume that a child is searching for porn/violent stuff/etc. A teen, possibly.
I don't think most parents trying to find their way through the online stuff are on a slippery slope to abuse. I *do* think abusers and very controlling people will definitely seek to control their kids' online world, because that is the broader world they don't want them empowered by.
I think it's really important to try to discuss those things with nuance because parents do need information and expertise and support in navigating things. Most of us will only raise a few kids and by the time we figure it out it's kind of on the backs of our kids, if that makes sense. If *any* hint of limitation to online information is treated like *total* control, that's kind of control of a different sort.
Anyways I actually popped back in this thread to relate something relevant that happened recently. I got a call from one of my staff about some very disturbing comics an 8-year-old child had drawn in our program - 3 pages of people being murdered in various ways, pleading for their lives, and other people in the background hiding. This is a child who has a pretty wild capacity for understanding the human condition, super smart etc.
Anyways...you may already have spotted what happened.
The kid watched Squid Game over the weekend.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:08 AM on February 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think this is definitely true in very authoritarian houses or in particular communities (some religious communities come to mind.) I will say though, in my Toronto suburb, I think it would not be the norm to assume that a child is searching for porn/violent stuff/etc. A teen, possibly.
I don't think most parents trying to find their way through the online stuff are on a slippery slope to abuse. I *do* think abusers and very controlling people will definitely seek to control their kids' online world, because that is the broader world they don't want them empowered by.
I think it's really important to try to discuss those things with nuance because parents do need information and expertise and support in navigating things. Most of us will only raise a few kids and by the time we figure it out it's kind of on the backs of our kids, if that makes sense. If *any* hint of limitation to online information is treated like *total* control, that's kind of control of a different sort.
Anyways I actually popped back in this thread to relate something relevant that happened recently. I got a call from one of my staff about some very disturbing comics an 8-year-old child had drawn in our program - 3 pages of people being murdered in various ways, pleading for their lives, and other people in the background hiding. This is a child who has a pretty wild capacity for understanding the human condition, super smart etc.
Anyways...you may already have spotted what happened.
The kid watched Squid Game over the weekend.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:08 AM on February 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. MiraK, this is not the first time we have had to tell you, please don't put words in other people's mouths -- it makes it impossible to have a discussion. This is an ongoing problem, and if you want to stay on the site it needs to change.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:24 AM on February 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:24 AM on February 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
some very disturbing comics an 8-year-old child had drawn in our program - 3 pages of people being murdered in various ways, pleading for their lives, and other people in the background hiding. This is a child who has a pretty wild capacity for understanding the human condition, super smart etc.
I don't know about the super smart stuff but this was me by the time I was eleven and seeing my first intense movies and/or reading novelizations of such movies that I wasn't allowed to see. I was also writing stories to go with the murders and whatnot, and submitting them as school work. It was just stuff that fascinated me. And what did the teachers do? They gave me high marks for creativity and ambition (one of those stories was twenty plus pages while everybody was struggling to finish three). I do recall the principal taking interest, having a talk with me. He ended up recommending I read Lord of the Rings.
Things were different in early 1970s.
posted by philip-random at 7:55 AM on February 10, 2022
I don't know about the super smart stuff but this was me by the time I was eleven and seeing my first intense movies and/or reading novelizations of such movies that I wasn't allowed to see. I was also writing stories to go with the murders and whatnot, and submitting them as school work. It was just stuff that fascinated me. And what did the teachers do? They gave me high marks for creativity and ambition (one of those stories was twenty plus pages while everybody was struggling to finish three). I do recall the principal taking interest, having a talk with me. He ended up recommending I read Lord of the Rings.
Things were different in early 1970s.
posted by philip-random at 7:55 AM on February 10, 2022
Things were different in early 1970s.
Or even late 70s. I wrote an essay early in eighth grade about what I'd do if I had a lightsaber. Hint: it didn't involve working out differences with other people through a mutually respectful discussion. Got an A on it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:30 AM on February 10, 2022
Or even late 70s. I wrote an essay early in eighth grade about what I'd do if I had a lightsaber. Hint: it didn't involve working out differences with other people through a mutually respectful discussion. Got an A on it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:30 AM on February 10, 2022
And what did the teachers do? They gave me high marks for creativity and ambition (one of those stories was twenty plus pages while everybody was struggling to finish three). I do recall the principal taking interest, having a talk with me. He ended up recommending I read Lord of the Rings.
I had a similar experience, based not on my viewing habits exactly, but based on my grandfather forcing me to watch the Exorcist (except the ending) so he could leverage my new fear of demons. When I produced "disturbing" writing, being a girl, I got sent home from school and my my mum was so upset she broke one of my fingers.
We didn't punish the kid in our program, by the way, but I am worried about him. One way that kids process trauma is by fixating on it. If they get a leg broken they play doctor/boo-boo for weeks or months.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:31 AM on February 10, 2022
I had a similar experience, based not on my viewing habits exactly, but based on my grandfather forcing me to watch the Exorcist (except the ending) so he could leverage my new fear of demons. When I produced "disturbing" writing, being a girl, I got sent home from school and my my mum was so upset she broke one of my fingers.
We didn't punish the kid in our program, by the way, but I am worried about him. One way that kids process trauma is by fixating on it. If they get a leg broken they play doctor/boo-boo for weeks or months.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:31 AM on February 10, 2022
Having just come back from a week without my cell phone, as the result of an unfortunate incident on a boat and 25 feet of salt water, I can say as a certainty that at least within my social environment, not having a phone sucks a lot. There are definitely social consequences if you decide not to have a smartphone (or have a weird opposition to installing apps or whatever). It's not quite Black Mirror "White Christmas" (uh, spoiler alert) level social death, but it's definitely a level of un-personing that's not a ton of fun if you're used to being plugged-in to your friends' event planning and general groupchat banter and whatnot.
At what point not having a smartphone (or internet access, or a laptop, or a bunch of other pieces of what today constitute basic technology) becomes a social hindrance is arguable. Does a 4-year-old need a smartphone, in the sense of suffering any consequences with their friends, etc., as a result of not having one? Probably not. At least, I don't think so, although I could be wrong. But I suspect a 14-year-old would view it pretty differently. I fully expect that somewhere in that range, my kid is going to want one, and we'll have to figure it out.
Do I know adults who don't have smartphones? Sure. But they are (1) adults, and are making that decision for themselves, presumably aware of the social consequences and tradeoffs involved in not having one, nobody is making that call for them; and (2) most of their friends are in the older-millenial/GenX/Boomer demographic, and have a relationship to technology that's fundamentally different than what younger people have. (Like, I don't know how many of you have tried to get a teenager or younger 20-something to call you on the phone, but I seriously think it's easier to get someone to peel off a section of their own skin and write on it in blood and send a photo of the result. And don't get me started on getting people to print documents on paper in 2022.)
My local emergency dispatch system is currently struggling to stand up a text-message gateway for 911, because they've started to realize the hard way that younger people won't make a phone call if something in front of them is actually on fire. I'm not even joking: I have gotten, because I am on the local fire department, text-ish (WhatsApp, FB Messenger) messages from people like "um hey I just got hit by a car but 911 isn't responding to my texts, what's the deal?" WHAT? NO. CALL 911. CALL. WITH THE PHONE APP. "Ugh nevermind whatever I'll just Uber." (As it turns out, Uber is cheaper than the ambulance even if you get charged the $200 fee for bleeding all over their upholstery, so maybe they're onto something.)
So, yeah, smartphones: land of contrasts.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:08 AM on February 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
At what point not having a smartphone (or internet access, or a laptop, or a bunch of other pieces of what today constitute basic technology) becomes a social hindrance is arguable. Does a 4-year-old need a smartphone, in the sense of suffering any consequences with their friends, etc., as a result of not having one? Probably not. At least, I don't think so, although I could be wrong. But I suspect a 14-year-old would view it pretty differently. I fully expect that somewhere in that range, my kid is going to want one, and we'll have to figure it out.
Do I know adults who don't have smartphones? Sure. But they are (1) adults, and are making that decision for themselves, presumably aware of the social consequences and tradeoffs involved in not having one, nobody is making that call for them; and (2) most of their friends are in the older-millenial/GenX/Boomer demographic, and have a relationship to technology that's fundamentally different than what younger people have. (Like, I don't know how many of you have tried to get a teenager or younger 20-something to call you on the phone, but I seriously think it's easier to get someone to peel off a section of their own skin and write on it in blood and send a photo of the result. And don't get me started on getting people to print documents on paper in 2022.)
My local emergency dispatch system is currently struggling to stand up a text-message gateway for 911, because they've started to realize the hard way that younger people won't make a phone call if something in front of them is actually on fire. I'm not even joking: I have gotten, because I am on the local fire department, text-ish (WhatsApp, FB Messenger) messages from people like "um hey I just got hit by a car but 911 isn't responding to my texts, what's the deal?" WHAT? NO. CALL 911. CALL. WITH THE PHONE APP. "Ugh nevermind whatever I'll just Uber." (As it turns out, Uber is cheaper than the ambulance even if you get charged the $200 fee for bleeding all over their upholstery, so maybe they're onto something.)
So, yeah, smartphones: land of contrasts.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:08 AM on February 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think what's different is the vast fraction of our (and our children's) correspondence which is carried out over text based media with infinite memories. If I think back to my childhood, there are no durable records of any kind of any conversation I had with anyone about *anything*. Maybe some letters to grandparents that were kept in a dusty drawer somewhere? A stilted letter to a penpal? From 15 or so, occasional emails that could have been kept (but in practice haven't been). Text messages from about that same age that would have been FIFOd out of phone memory in long forgotten and destroyed phones, and finally from 22 onwards the majority of my communications with friends all archived in whatsapp, FB messenger or what have you.
In other words, there was simply no way of *anyone* including future me to spy on my adolescent communications effectively since they were done in person or over the phone.
If those technologies had arrived earlier, that would have been possible. I think that's the thing that's new, that potentially the majority of our communications are potentially open to analysis and therefore parents now have to choose whether they do that.
In principle I agree that it's the same, parents have the ability to restrict and monitor some things and they have to make decisions as to how to do that. They also have to make more decisions about when and how to disapply controls that they've gotten used to having. I think that is a little new because in the past, the natural rhythms of the outside world essentially forced that on them.
An American kid growing up in the suburbs is de-facto not able to move far from where they or another person who can drive has put them. A 16 year old can drive and therefore there is a natural transition between "I know where you are because I brought you there" and "I will ask you where you're going but am dependent on you to tell me the truth and you could choose not to". If you switch tracking on your children's phone on, there is a moment where you have to go in and deliberately switch it off. I do worry that many parents will leave it on much longer than is healthy and much longer than they themselves would have been under that kind of control.
I do think it's interesting that there are people who are simultaneously convinced that Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey turned their mom into a Nazi or made uncle Bob do a Brexit with the help of the Kremlin and that they should be punished for making people vote wrong and that social media is really bad for us but the idea of not allowing children unfettered access to the Stormfront forum on 4chan.pedo is obviously abusive. I get the wishful idea that if we do our gosh darn raisin' right and have good dinner table conversations then children will be immune to this stuff but is there really any evidence of that?
posted by atrazine at 11:08 AM on February 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
In other words, there was simply no way of *anyone* including future me to spy on my adolescent communications effectively since they were done in person or over the phone.
If those technologies had arrived earlier, that would have been possible. I think that's the thing that's new, that potentially the majority of our communications are potentially open to analysis and therefore parents now have to choose whether they do that.
In principle I agree that it's the same, parents have the ability to restrict and monitor some things and they have to make decisions as to how to do that. They also have to make more decisions about when and how to disapply controls that they've gotten used to having. I think that is a little new because in the past, the natural rhythms of the outside world essentially forced that on them.
An American kid growing up in the suburbs is de-facto not able to move far from where they or another person who can drive has put them. A 16 year old can drive and therefore there is a natural transition between "I know where you are because I brought you there" and "I will ask you where you're going but am dependent on you to tell me the truth and you could choose not to". If you switch tracking on your children's phone on, there is a moment where you have to go in and deliberately switch it off. I do worry that many parents will leave it on much longer than is healthy and much longer than they themselves would have been under that kind of control.
I do think it's interesting that there are people who are simultaneously convinced that Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey turned their mom into a Nazi or made uncle Bob do a Brexit with the help of the Kremlin and that they should be punished for making people vote wrong and that social media is really bad for us but the idea of not allowing children unfettered access to the Stormfront forum on 4chan.pedo is obviously abusive. I get the wishful idea that if we do our gosh darn raisin' right and have good dinner table conversations then children will be immune to this stuff but is there really any evidence of that?
posted by atrazine at 11:08 AM on February 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
There's a difference between not constant monitoring of web traffic, messages, and location, and stormfront pedochan being acceptable. And it's less about "raising right" (although that's part) and a lot more about tools.
My kid is 12 and knows damn well what the algorithm does to sell things, sell their data, and psychologically manipulate their attention. They still get caught in it sometimes but that basic awareness of "this is a tool, and corporations use it without care" remains. My folks? Less so. The forwarded breathless emailed pleas from Trump are designed around this, for example.
There is a qualitative and quantitative difference between early internet and the corporate horror we have now. And yes that includes porn - seeking out xxx dot com is as different to Playboy's in the forest as it is to the mindgeek empire. The underlying structural design has shifted under corporatisation and again, it also includes those who seek to radicalise others.
The queer nerd radicalism is less loaded and less corporatised than others, with less grifter-at-the-top style set ups, but I have no illusions that tiktok isn't algorithmically enabling it for money. It means I have discussions with my kid about queer history and terfs, rather than other topics, and that drive to extremes is still apparent. I just happen to be that extreme end, for the most part. I have no illusions that it's free of predators either, another thing we have discussed and will keep discussing.
But there's a difference in experience when you approach the internet as a black box that gives you information, and the internet as a system designed to sell to you and sell you, and misinformation is key.
(Plus the multi-form aspect - fox news to YouTube to telegram or whatever is a whole other kind of information overload compared to not even watching tv and the social media being chatting with friends)
posted by geek anachronism at 1:58 PM on February 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
My kid is 12 and knows damn well what the algorithm does to sell things, sell their data, and psychologically manipulate their attention. They still get caught in it sometimes but that basic awareness of "this is a tool, and corporations use it without care" remains. My folks? Less so. The forwarded breathless emailed pleas from Trump are designed around this, for example.
There is a qualitative and quantitative difference between early internet and the corporate horror we have now. And yes that includes porn - seeking out xxx dot com is as different to Playboy's in the forest as it is to the mindgeek empire. The underlying structural design has shifted under corporatisation and again, it also includes those who seek to radicalise others.
The queer nerd radicalism is less loaded and less corporatised than others, with less grifter-at-the-top style set ups, but I have no illusions that tiktok isn't algorithmically enabling it for money. It means I have discussions with my kid about queer history and terfs, rather than other topics, and that drive to extremes is still apparent. I just happen to be that extreme end, for the most part. I have no illusions that it's free of predators either, another thing we have discussed and will keep discussing.
But there's a difference in experience when you approach the internet as a black box that gives you information, and the internet as a system designed to sell to you and sell you, and misinformation is key.
(Plus the multi-form aspect - fox news to YouTube to telegram or whatever is a whole other kind of information overload compared to not even watching tv and the social media being chatting with friends)
posted by geek anachronism at 1:58 PM on February 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
When you're trying to compare whether to track, say, your teen by their location, you have to think about more than just actual tracking. It's one thing if you have a good relationship and your kid calls so you talk them through turning on location sharing so you know where to pick them up. It's quite another if your teen knows they're always being tracked. Because then there's the expectation that they should be in the places they said they should. And if they decide to go somewhere else? That's when they leave their phone somewhere okay location-wise. So now you don't know where they are, can't call them, they can't call you if something goes wrong, and they're kinda ready for a fight about why they're one the wrong place to begin with.
Which is just a specific example of why I think teens are safer not having their tech monitored. It's better to make time for conversations, so that you hear about the big and little problems along the way, not spy them out over the computer. I'm glad to have built up enough trust to hear about my teenager's life.
posted by blueberry monster at 2:19 PM on February 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Which is just a specific example of why I think teens are safer not having their tech monitored. It's better to make time for conversations, so that you hear about the big and little problems along the way, not spy them out over the computer. I'm glad to have built up enough trust to hear about my teenager's life.
posted by blueberry monster at 2:19 PM on February 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
The Black Mirror episode Arkangel is all about a parent surveilling their child.
posted by bendy at 4:01 PM on February 10, 2022
posted by bendy at 4:01 PM on February 10, 2022
Unfettered access and gosh-darned raisin' right worked pretty well for my kids. It was hard work that required a shit-ton of engagement and availability and trust and relationship-building. Do I have trump uncles and rail loudly against the evils of social media as an engine of exploitation and the sharp rise in highly effective nation-state level disinformation campaigns exploiting social network effects built on surveillance infrastructure? All the goddamn time. In my family we resist hate with as much compassion and truth as we can muster. We do our darndest to remain as conscious and aware of manipulative use of technology and economy as possible.
I believe raisin' right did in fact work. I'll ask my family at the dinner table tonight what they think. I'm about to go make fish tacos.
posted by majick at 6:15 PM on February 10, 2022
I believe raisin' right did in fact work. I'll ask my family at the dinner table tonight what they think. I'm about to go make fish tacos.
posted by majick at 6:15 PM on February 10, 2022
I'm imagining my abusive mother having the ability to surveille me when I was a kid and it fills me with horror. No abusive parents think they're abusive so she would have seen nothing wrong with the shitty ways she'd use that information. Sure, the surveillance can pick up on when a kid is showing signs of suicidal ideation, but that's not much help if the parent is a major cause of it and ascribes it to everything except their own behavior. I'm sure she'd also write a comment online about how helpful it was for keeping tabs on me.
posted by Anonymous at 8:58 PM on February 10, 2022
posted by Anonymous at 8:58 PM on February 10, 2022
I think it's also important to note in these discussions that different people have pretty, uh, different relationships with emerging technology. There's not a uniform social consensus on stuff like always-on home assistance devices, or location tracking, for instance. Some people find them troubling, other people find them convenient.
E.g. location services: what is scary to one person is merely convenient to another. I have Apple's "Find My" app set to broadcast my location continuously to probably a half-dozen people. Until Google Maps kept hassling me about it, I had it set to broadcast to another two. But they're all people that I've chosen, and who I have a reasonable belief would only ever use that information in a way that I'd be okay with. I've made a judgment call that the risk of one of them being creepy, is less than the possible benefit of having one of them come pull my ass out of a ditch if I get too frisky on my motorcycle. As an adult, that's a call I get to make.
But that's sort of the crux of the issue: making that decision isn't trivial. It has some possibly-serious ramifications. And along with other possibly-serious-ramifications decisions, there's a bit of a grey area as to when someone is capable of making it unaided.
Even the law can't really come up with a single bright line, or even an especially good test, to determine when someone is capable of making particularly weighty decisions. The limits are, broadly, socially-determined and arbitrary. In my state, you can withhold consent to emergency medical treatment at 14, but can't get into an R-rated movie. The parents of a 16-year-old can prohibit them from getting married, but not from having a baby on the parents' health insurance. A 12-year-old can open and maintain a bank account in their own name to which their parents have no legal access, but can't sign an employment contract. A 15-year old can get an ear piercing, but not a nose piercing or a tattoo. It's a shitshow, a total mockery of the idea of rational basis, the result of ~300 years of compromises and edge cases and slapdash, patchwork legislation.
If we can't even come up with a broad social consensus as to when someone is legally an adult, the idea that we'll have a consensus at the individual level for stuff as varied as when it's beneficial to have a cellphone that you completely control, or when unfettered communication with anyone on the planet is a benefit rather than a dangerous hazard, seems pretty farfetched.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:22 PM on February 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
E.g. location services: what is scary to one person is merely convenient to another. I have Apple's "Find My" app set to broadcast my location continuously to probably a half-dozen people. Until Google Maps kept hassling me about it, I had it set to broadcast to another two. But they're all people that I've chosen, and who I have a reasonable belief would only ever use that information in a way that I'd be okay with. I've made a judgment call that the risk of one of them being creepy, is less than the possible benefit of having one of them come pull my ass out of a ditch if I get too frisky on my motorcycle. As an adult, that's a call I get to make.
But that's sort of the crux of the issue: making that decision isn't trivial. It has some possibly-serious ramifications. And along with other possibly-serious-ramifications decisions, there's a bit of a grey area as to when someone is capable of making it unaided.
Even the law can't really come up with a single bright line, or even an especially good test, to determine when someone is capable of making particularly weighty decisions. The limits are, broadly, socially-determined and arbitrary. In my state, you can withhold consent to emergency medical treatment at 14, but can't get into an R-rated movie. The parents of a 16-year-old can prohibit them from getting married, but not from having a baby on the parents' health insurance. A 12-year-old can open and maintain a bank account in their own name to which their parents have no legal access, but can't sign an employment contract. A 15-year old can get an ear piercing, but not a nose piercing or a tattoo. It's a shitshow, a total mockery of the idea of rational basis, the result of ~300 years of compromises and edge cases and slapdash, patchwork legislation.
If we can't even come up with a broad social consensus as to when someone is legally an adult, the idea that we'll have a consensus at the individual level for stuff as varied as when it's beneficial to have a cellphone that you completely control, or when unfettered communication with anyone on the planet is a benefit rather than a dangerous hazard, seems pretty farfetched.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:22 PM on February 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Halloween Jack: "Or even late 70s. I wrote an essay early in eighth grade about what I'd do if I had a lightsaber. Hint: it didn't involve working out differences with other people through a mutually respectful discussion. Got an A on it.
"
In the mid-'80s, we were the first family in my neighborhood to get a VCR. Most of the other kids were a few years older than me, and they'd come over to my house and we'd watch a lot of stuff which was pretty violent for a kid my age. Terminator, Clockwork Orange, Robocop, zombie movies, slasher flicks. They also turned me on to heavy metal (NWOBHM, to be precise), with a lot of Iron Maiden, etc.
So, in like 9th grade, for art class I drew a bloody hand, with the flesh stripped away below the wrist exposing cables and pistons, holding a bloody axe, with a cemetery in the background (basically inspired by the Killers cover with the T-800 standing in for Eddy).
Got called to the principal's office, who praised my talent but wondered if there was something going on?
I explained about Iron Maiden, etc., and fortunately, she got it.
posted by signal at 6:47 AM on February 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
"
In the mid-'80s, we were the first family in my neighborhood to get a VCR. Most of the other kids were a few years older than me, and they'd come over to my house and we'd watch a lot of stuff which was pretty violent for a kid my age. Terminator, Clockwork Orange, Robocop, zombie movies, slasher flicks. They also turned me on to heavy metal (NWOBHM, to be precise), with a lot of Iron Maiden, etc.
So, in like 9th grade, for art class I drew a bloody hand, with the flesh stripped away below the wrist exposing cables and pistons, holding a bloody axe, with a cemetery in the background (basically inspired by the Killers cover with the T-800 standing in for Eddy).
Got called to the principal's office, who praised my talent but wondered if there was something going on?
I explained about Iron Maiden, etc., and fortunately, she got it.
posted by signal at 6:47 AM on February 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Related in the NYT today: "I Used Apple AirTags, Tiles and a GPS Tracker to Watch My Husband’s Every Move (A vast location-tracking network is being built around us so we don’t lose our keys: One couple’s adventures in the consumer tech surveillance state)".
posted by exlotuseater at 9:39 AM on February 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by exlotuseater at 9:39 AM on February 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
« Older Daniel Quan-Watson answers Rex Murphy's questions... | The Giant Chainmail Box That Stops a House From... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by perhapses at 8:11 PM on February 8, 2022 [13 favorites]