Saving rescue dogs - by moving them cross-country
February 19, 2022 8:18 PM Subscribe
Some states have too many rescue dogs. Other states have people who want to adopt, but not enough rescue dogs. The solution? Fly the dogs by cargo plane to a new city. The ASPCA has rescued over 200,000 dogs by relocating them to new cities - and they aren't the only ones doing it.
I fostered kittens recently through an organization that rescues dogs and cats from the Carolinas and transports them up to the DelMarVa area. The bit in the article predicting that these adoptable dogs will "fly off the shelves" in the Northern states made me wince. That was also the bill of goods I was sold.
We were told that these kittens were next in line for euthanasia if someone didn't agree to foster them, which made us agree to foster them despite originally stating that we were interested in 1 or 2 bottle babies and these were 3 older kittens. We were told that their vet services, food, and litter, would be paid for. Instead, I got one bag of food, one bag of litter, and two toys when I picked them up, but had to pay for all the other food, toys, and litter they used. We were also told they were sisters, but clearly only two of them were. I came to believe that the person we worked with in the initial stages would say whatever she needed to to get animals out of kill shelters.
After we had the kittens in our possession, person #1 disappeared and I was told I wouldn't be interacting with her again. That was a surprise, but obviously works well to avoid culpability for any incorrect information we were given.
Instead of fostering for a few weeks as originally represented, we had all three of the kittens from early September until late last month. Two were finally adopted, and I "foster failed" the third, which I shouldn't probably have done (my existing cat does not want anything to do with her) but it had been 5 months and I was impossibly attached and so was she.
During those 4.5 months, I posted like crazy on social media, and contacted everyone I could think of, including exes I didn't particulary want to talk to but knew were good with animals. The kittens were healthy, beautiful, playful and affectionate--it wasn't them, it was the lack of willing adopters. The rescue org frankly didn't do a whole lot, but rather seemed to expect fosters to do most of the work, which we were never told would be the case. I felt abandoned and hung out to dry by the org. They posted twice on their Facebook (the second time after I pestered them repeatedly) and canceled the one pet store event I could go to because of Covid.
I wish I had done more research before agreeing to foster through this org. I quickly noticed that the shelters in our area were *reducing* their adoption fees in order to try to get their available animals adopted. The org I worked with charges almost $200 per animal, no discounts for pairs. My county's shelter charges less than half that, and another nearby county has charged as little as $15! When I asked at one point if the adoption fee could be reduced, or if a discount could be given for adopting more than one, the rescue org refused.
Because of this experience, I feel worried that a similar thing is happening or will happen with these dogs and their fosters. I also wonder whether there are indeed adoptable dogs in the fly-to locations that won't be adopted, or will have a harder time being adopted, because of these transports.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 9:42 PM on February 19, 2022 [40 favorites]
We were told that these kittens were next in line for euthanasia if someone didn't agree to foster them, which made us agree to foster them despite originally stating that we were interested in 1 or 2 bottle babies and these were 3 older kittens. We were told that their vet services, food, and litter, would be paid for. Instead, I got one bag of food, one bag of litter, and two toys when I picked them up, but had to pay for all the other food, toys, and litter they used. We were also told they were sisters, but clearly only two of them were. I came to believe that the person we worked with in the initial stages would say whatever she needed to to get animals out of kill shelters.
After we had the kittens in our possession, person #1 disappeared and I was told I wouldn't be interacting with her again. That was a surprise, but obviously works well to avoid culpability for any incorrect information we were given.
Instead of fostering for a few weeks as originally represented, we had all three of the kittens from early September until late last month. Two were finally adopted, and I "foster failed" the third, which I shouldn't probably have done (my existing cat does not want anything to do with her) but it had been 5 months and I was impossibly attached and so was she.
During those 4.5 months, I posted like crazy on social media, and contacted everyone I could think of, including exes I didn't particulary want to talk to but knew were good with animals. The kittens were healthy, beautiful, playful and affectionate--it wasn't them, it was the lack of willing adopters. The rescue org frankly didn't do a whole lot, but rather seemed to expect fosters to do most of the work, which we were never told would be the case. I felt abandoned and hung out to dry by the org. They posted twice on their Facebook (the second time after I pestered them repeatedly) and canceled the one pet store event I could go to because of Covid.
I wish I had done more research before agreeing to foster through this org. I quickly noticed that the shelters in our area were *reducing* their adoption fees in order to try to get their available animals adopted. The org I worked with charges almost $200 per animal, no discounts for pairs. My county's shelter charges less than half that, and another nearby county has charged as little as $15! When I asked at one point if the adoption fee could be reduced, or if a discount could be given for adopting more than one, the rescue org refused.
Because of this experience, I feel worried that a similar thing is happening or will happen with these dogs and their fosters. I also wonder whether there are indeed adoptable dogs in the fly-to locations that won't be adopted, or will have a harder time being adopted, because of these transports.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 9:42 PM on February 19, 2022 [40 favorites]
Oh P.S. In order to adopt the remaining kitten, I was forced to sign a contract that, among other things, agreed I would not badmouth the rescue organization on social media. I look at their reviews and see a few awful ones, but wonder how many other people were bamboozled into foster failing, only to then be muzzled so they couldn't share their experience, on penalty of losing their now-beloved pet.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 9:54 PM on February 19, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 9:54 PM on February 19, 2022 [17 favorites]
I also wonder whether there are indeed adoptable dogs in the fly-to locations that won't be adopted, or will have a harder time being adopted, because of these transports.
The vast, and I mean vast, majority of dogs in Northern urban shelters are pit bulls. I personally love pitties to death, but as a renter it would be just about impossible for me ever to adopt one, and they're not an ideal breed for everyone even if there were no prohibitions on them. Many of the southern rescues are other breeds that might be better suited for some people's situations.
I'm sorry you had a lousy time with your rescue. There is no formal accreditation for rescues and some of them are either fly-by-night or are run by people who just get overwhelmed. There's no getting past that. But a lot are more careful. I'm surprised to hear that as a foster you were being expected to find adopters. A good rescue adopts out centrally, though of course fosters are encouraged to encourage potential applicants!
posted by praemunire at 10:40 PM on February 19, 2022 [7 favorites]
The vast, and I mean vast, majority of dogs in Northern urban shelters are pit bulls. I personally love pitties to death, but as a renter it would be just about impossible for me ever to adopt one, and they're not an ideal breed for everyone even if there were no prohibitions on them. Many of the southern rescues are other breeds that might be better suited for some people's situations.
I'm sorry you had a lousy time with your rescue. There is no formal accreditation for rescues and some of them are either fly-by-night or are run by people who just get overwhelmed. There's no getting past that. But a lot are more careful. I'm surprised to hear that as a foster you were being expected to find adopters. A good rescue adopts out centrally, though of course fosters are encouraged to encourage potential applicants!
posted by praemunire at 10:40 PM on February 19, 2022 [7 favorites]
Flock of Cynthiabirds, I have just had the exact same situation with my four foster kitties and have given in to becoming an eight cat household unexpectedly. If they try to make me sign anything after the haphazard way they handled the fostering and the small hill of vet and food bills I now have, I will be so annoyed.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:21 PM on February 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:21 PM on February 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
I remember reading some sort of organized convoy from the south to the north, with multiple routes by a trucker, for pets who needed to be rehomed. But my Google-fu failed me at this time.
posted by kschang at 1:03 AM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kschang at 1:03 AM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's common in the EU too, a local organisation arranges dogs and cats to be sent from southern Spain to Germany on the regular. I've considered getting more involved, but I'll keep your experience in mind Flock!
posted by Braeburn at 1:38 AM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Braeburn at 1:38 AM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
One of our dogs came all the way from Texas to Canada.
posted by Mogur at 4:03 AM on February 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 4:03 AM on February 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
An old high school friend posted photos a few weeks ago of being part of “Mission: Possible”, an SPCA International airlift of 250+ cats and dogs who were abandoned in the fall of Kabul, and brought to Canada to be reunited with former owners or be put up for adoption. I know it’s a drop in the bucket compared to the work of getting Afghan allies out of harm’s way, but I love that while there have been a lot of people focused on that work, there are others who care about the animals and will also put in sweat and willpower to make sure they’re ok.
posted by bl1nk at 4:07 AM on February 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bl1nk at 4:07 AM on February 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
On the opposite side, this means that, when I was considering adopting a pet, the most photogenic dogs were already earmarked. The ones left tended to be mid-sized black mutts or pit bulls.
It's hardly the worst societal ill, but it did leave a bad taste in my mouth.
posted by Trifling at 4:57 AM on February 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's hardly the worst societal ill, but it did leave a bad taste in my mouth.
posted by Trifling at 4:57 AM on February 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
I got my dog from an organization that does this. He was great, and my experience was nothing like Flock's, so YMMV.
posted by branca at 5:36 AM on February 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by branca at 5:36 AM on February 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
When I lived in the Cayman Islands we’d on the regular fly rescued dogs from Grand Cayman to New York and hand them off to a local rescue charity. We’d fly in on a Friday night with 5 or 6 dogs and by Sunday morning they would all be adopted. One of the oddest things I’ve done - but most of the Caribbean has a real bad stray dog issue (especially after hurricanes when dogs get loose and lost).
Also flying into JFK with several crates of dogs attracts the entire TSA / CBP staff on the Eastern Seaboard - and all they want to do is play with the puppies. I swear - not that I tried it - I could have been holding a big bag marked “drugs and massive amounts of illicit offshore money from Cayman” and they wouldn’t have cared….because puppies!!!!!
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:44 AM on February 20, 2022 [15 favorites]
Also flying into JFK with several crates of dogs attracts the entire TSA / CBP staff on the Eastern Seaboard - and all they want to do is play with the puppies. I swear - not that I tried it - I could have been holding a big bag marked “drugs and massive amounts of illicit offshore money from Cayman” and they wouldn’t have cared….because puppies!!!!!
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:44 AM on February 20, 2022 [15 favorites]
When we were looking for a dog, there were none to be had at the MSPCA and other local shelters. The rescues around here are almost all exclusively of the type described in the article; dogs are brought up from the south and adopted out up north. However, the one we ended up working with includes a foster program in the Boston area, so the dogs aren't even put up for adoption until someone local has some time with them to check on their personalities. That way, too, potential adopters can meet the dogs before making a decision. I thought it worked out really well.
As far as transport goes, I've looked into volunteering for some organizations that do the work that's mentioned in the article. There are actually quite a few organizations that try to set up these flights (Pilots N Paws is the biggest, I think), and the basic idea is that any pilot can sign up as a volunteer and take on routes that are requested by the rescue organizations that post needs on the website.
Normally, a private pilot accepting a "mission" like this would be in violation of FAA rules regarding "holding out," or essentially flying for hire. Even if there's no money exchanged, the feds take a really dim view on pilots without commercial privileges taking on passengers who are directing where the flight is going. These organizations get around this with special waivers from the FAA specifically allowing these kinds of flights. The caveats are that the pilot may not be reimbursed at all (with one exception) for the cost of the flight, and the pilot obviously still has full decision making power about whether the flight happens and can cancel it due to weather or other issues (so, there's no animal rescue "dispatch" telling the pilot where and when to go). The exception to the reimbursement rule is that, since this is considered a "charitable" act, the cost of the flight can be deducted on your taxes just like any other donation.
There are other, similar organizations for other needs, as well. Angel Flight is the biggest and most well known (maybe they started this whole thing, I'm not sure), and they provide transportation for people in need trying to get to medical appointments (usually things like cancer treatments at specialist centers across the country). I've also seen ad hoc groups pop up after natural disasters to help ferry in supplies to hard hit areas, but I'm not sure about the, em, effectiveness of those efforts.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:45 AM on February 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
As far as transport goes, I've looked into volunteering for some organizations that do the work that's mentioned in the article. There are actually quite a few organizations that try to set up these flights (Pilots N Paws is the biggest, I think), and the basic idea is that any pilot can sign up as a volunteer and take on routes that are requested by the rescue organizations that post needs on the website.
Normally, a private pilot accepting a "mission" like this would be in violation of FAA rules regarding "holding out," or essentially flying for hire. Even if there's no money exchanged, the feds take a really dim view on pilots without commercial privileges taking on passengers who are directing where the flight is going. These organizations get around this with special waivers from the FAA specifically allowing these kinds of flights. The caveats are that the pilot may not be reimbursed at all (with one exception) for the cost of the flight, and the pilot obviously still has full decision making power about whether the flight happens and can cancel it due to weather or other issues (so, there's no animal rescue "dispatch" telling the pilot where and when to go). The exception to the reimbursement rule is that, since this is considered a "charitable" act, the cost of the flight can be deducted on your taxes just like any other donation.
There are other, similar organizations for other needs, as well. Angel Flight is the biggest and most well known (maybe they started this whole thing, I'm not sure), and they provide transportation for people in need trying to get to medical appointments (usually things like cancer treatments at specialist centers across the country). I've also seen ad hoc groups pop up after natural disasters to help ferry in supplies to hard hit areas, but I'm not sure about the, em, effectiveness of those efforts.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:45 AM on February 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
Wow. I hope it works out well.
My experience with cat shelters makes me deeply skeptical of the critical thinking skills of the people who run many US shelters. But, I'm glad they exist. After our last cat died, and given that it's not clear where I and my spouse will be living in 2 years, I've been debating fostering. I love old and grumpy cats. I can pill and inject an unadoptable cat. But, I've only ever heard horror stories about the process.
Are there *good* foster stories? How does adoption from foster work?
posted by eotvos at 5:46 AM on February 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
My experience with cat shelters makes me deeply skeptical of the critical thinking skills of the people who run many US shelters. But, I'm glad they exist. After our last cat died, and given that it's not clear where I and my spouse will be living in 2 years, I've been debating fostering. I love old and grumpy cats. I can pill and inject an unadoptable cat. But, I've only ever heard horror stories about the process.
Are there *good* foster stories? How does adoption from foster work?
posted by eotvos at 5:46 AM on February 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
My mom is a professional dog groomer who will volunteer to take any dog you want to give away. The number of dogs given away is truly astonishing. It's better than most alternatives, but also, why did you get a dog in the first place? You can't care for a dog. You must have known that!
The number of pee stains on my building's freight elevator floor from dogs who couldn't wait 15 seconds until they reach the sidewalk makes me question the ethics of local dog owners. There's a dog frozen yogurt truck on the corner, which is neat. But, also, 15 hours alone in a small indoor space between 5 minute walks isn't great for a dog. Or any living thing.
posted by eotvos at 5:56 AM on February 20, 2022 [9 favorites]
The number of pee stains on my building's freight elevator floor from dogs who couldn't wait 15 seconds until they reach the sidewalk makes me question the ethics of local dog owners. There's a dog frozen yogurt truck on the corner, which is neat. But, also, 15 hours alone in a small indoor space between 5 minute walks isn't great for a dog. Or any living thing.
posted by eotvos at 5:56 AM on February 20, 2022 [9 favorites]
A month ago I mentioned this about a friend of mine and her fostering rescue dog:
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:58 AM on February 20, 2022 [16 favorites]
Though she is anglophone, several of her latest fosters are from Quebec, so she has had to learn sufficient French to talk to them. She posted on social media recently, "Of all the words a rescue dog might recognize, I had not imagined 'tourtière' to be among them." (This is a traditional pie of ground meat, onions, and savoury seasonings.)Since then, she has learned they also recognize “omelette,” “quiche,” and “PFK” (Poulet Frite Kentucky, or KFC).
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:58 AM on February 20, 2022 [16 favorites]
We have done our own small rescue here at this house, but for the first few years it was just the organic sort, “hey, a mom showed up with a litter of kittens in the backyard.” But last fall, there was a hoarding situation in our neighborhood where an elderly man died with around 50 cats in his house, and they were in bad shape.
The lady organizing the effort to deal with them is a force of nature, and is running an amazing operation with the (limited) resources at her disposal. My housemate has done a bunch of shifts at the place where they are keeping the “general population” of the rescues (which is still running, but happily down to less than 10 remaining as the others have gotten fostered out or adopted). I’ve donated a sizable chunk of money and supplies. And we took four of them into our home for more intensive rehabilitation.
I can see how this could easily have been a shitshow without the excellent leadership we were provided, and even with it, it’s been a long road. It was nearly five months before two of them were ready to go to an adoption center. No idea how long the other two will take, or if they’ll ever even make it. One in particular has some unidentifiable skin issue, and may never be adoptable. Regardless, we’ll figure it out one way or another.
I guess this is just to say that it’s challenging even under the best circumstances. For those doing their best in circumstances that are… less best, I salute you.
posted by notoriety public at 6:25 AM on February 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
The lady organizing the effort to deal with them is a force of nature, and is running an amazing operation with the (limited) resources at her disposal. My housemate has done a bunch of shifts at the place where they are keeping the “general population” of the rescues (which is still running, but happily down to less than 10 remaining as the others have gotten fostered out or adopted). I’ve donated a sizable chunk of money and supplies. And we took four of them into our home for more intensive rehabilitation.
I can see how this could easily have been a shitshow without the excellent leadership we were provided, and even with it, it’s been a long road. It was nearly five months before two of them were ready to go to an adoption center. No idea how long the other two will take, or if they’ll ever even make it. One in particular has some unidentifiable skin issue, and may never be adoptable. Regardless, we’ll figure it out one way or another.
I guess this is just to say that it’s challenging even under the best circumstances. For those doing their best in circumstances that are… less best, I salute you.
posted by notoriety public at 6:25 AM on February 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
An old high school friend posted photos a few weeks ago of being part of “Mission: Possible”, an SPCA International airlift of 250+ cats and dogs who were abandoned in the fall of Kabul, and brought to Canada to be reunited with former owners or be put up for adoption.
Imagine being an Afghani who worked with an international organisation that fled the country, leaving you behind to face possible torture or death, that then sent a plane to get their pets.
posted by zymil at 6:56 AM on February 20, 2022 [29 favorites]
My sister-in-law is involved with Save Harbin Dogs which flies rescue dogs all the way from China to Canada and the US. And I know people who've adopted dogs from Mexico and Costa Rica, as well. Canada seems to be a major destination, especially for small dogs, because we don't have that many of them available for adoption and people don't necessarily want or can't handle the big, pit-bull appearing dogs that generally are readily available for adoption here.
I like dogs and want to see them survive and live happy lives, but I have mixed feelings about how much time and money goes into flying dogs around the world, especially in situations like zymil notes.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:10 AM on February 20, 2022 [18 favorites]
I like dogs and want to see them survive and live happy lives, but I have mixed feelings about how much time and money goes into flying dogs around the world, especially in situations like zymil notes.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:10 AM on February 20, 2022 [18 favorites]
Our recently departed Pomeranian Pumpkin was a high-kill southern shelter transport rescue. The Maryland side of the operation was basically a one-woman show that focused exclusively on bringing up toy breeds that are in short supply in metro areas like Washington DC. I to this day can't believe that a beautiful, young, almost certainly purebred, physically and behaviorally sound Pomeranian sat for 3 months in a rural Georgia shelter!
That said, I can't see any viable reason to transport kittens in the same way. While there may no doubt be a bigger shortage of fosterers and greater oversupply of cats in less-populated areas, there's no counterbalancing shortage of adoptable kittens/cats in northern/metro areas.
I'm more familiar with organizations like this that transport animals through car convoys. The point in the article about the cost of flying ($30,000 to transport 48 dogs!) vs. ground transport is important to consider. I have a friend who has recently started a cross-country dog transport business--she works with both breeders and rescue orgs. She can transport up to 10 dogs at a time in her custom transit van. From the perspective of cost, environment, and supporting small businesses, it seems it would make more sense to expand in that direction and create more of a market for professional/paid ground transporters.
posted by drlith at 7:16 AM on February 20, 2022 [11 favorites]
That said, I can't see any viable reason to transport kittens in the same way. While there may no doubt be a bigger shortage of fosterers and greater oversupply of cats in less-populated areas, there's no counterbalancing shortage of adoptable kittens/cats in northern/metro areas.
I'm more familiar with organizations like this that transport animals through car convoys. The point in the article about the cost of flying ($30,000 to transport 48 dogs!) vs. ground transport is important to consider. I have a friend who has recently started a cross-country dog transport business--she works with both breeders and rescue orgs. She can transport up to 10 dogs at a time in her custom transit van. From the perspective of cost, environment, and supporting small businesses, it seems it would make more sense to expand in that direction and create more of a market for professional/paid ground transporters.
posted by drlith at 7:16 AM on February 20, 2022 [11 favorites]
This is timely for me--we just last week adopted a pit mix who was slated to be transported from our state, Texas, to Alberta. We were only fostering to give him a break from the shelter before he left and take some pressure off their perpetual overcrowding, but we all got along famously and when I asked the shelter's transport coordinator about the possibility of keeping him, they were more than happy to facilitate that and, presumably, free up a spot for another dog to go. I'm sure he would have found a wonderful home in Canada, but after a week and a half of thoroughly delighting each other, the thought of sending him away made me want to cry.
I'm pretty sure this foster fail story doesn't illuminate much about pet transport programs since, you know, he didn't go anywhere, but I'm glad it worked out for us.
posted by Tuba Toothpaste at 8:05 AM on February 20, 2022 [12 favorites]
I'm pretty sure this foster fail story doesn't illuminate much about pet transport programs since, you know, he didn't go anywhere, but I'm glad it worked out for us.
posted by Tuba Toothpaste at 8:05 AM on February 20, 2022 [12 favorites]
This handsome fellow (Rango, if you're asking) was liberated from a kill shelter in rural Kentucky, sent to a rescue group in Wisconsin, fostered in Northwest Illinois, then adopted by us here in Chicagoland. Every cliche I could type here that would embarrass me would nevertheless be true: he saved us, member of the family, my best friend, you name it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:10 AM on February 20, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:10 AM on February 20, 2022 [15 favorites]
Imagine being an Afghani who worked with an international organisation that fled the country, leaving you behind to face possible torture or death, that then sent a plane to get their pets.
You could inform yourself about the actual situation before passing judgment, or you could jump to conclusions...but I guess we know which one you prefer.
posted by praemunire at 8:44 AM on February 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
You could inform yourself about the actual situation before passing judgment, or you could jump to conclusions...but I guess we know which one you prefer.
posted by praemunire at 8:44 AM on February 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
I have mixed feelings about how much time and money goes into flying dogs around the world
This is not an inappropriate concern to raise, but I feel like it often gets thrown into these kinds of conversations like a bomb with very little care or rigor. Because ultimately it touches on at least two very difficult questions: (1) assuming one can even know it, to what degree is it ethical to devote resources to anything other than the "most efficient" or "highest purpose" charity; and (2) to what degree is it ethical for one to do anything but devote all resources beyond those required for a bare subsistence to anything but charity? Very, very few people are actually living in such a way that they could even begin to bear the most demanding scrutiny on these points (a la Peter Singer), but really most of us would struggle to satisfy even a moderate degree of severity, and it's not just because we're lazy and selfish. If I donate several hundred dollars to help get local Afghani employees of the U.S. out and settled (which I actually did), am I allowed to donate money to get the animals who were dependent on them, or on people who are now dead or fled elsewhere, and who will probably die after short miserable lives without them, to rejoin them? Am I allowed to eat a $30 takeout dinner, when I could've eaten $2 of beans and rice and donated the rest to the Afghani employees? And there are more questions all the way down (is it ethical to presume that human lives mean more than animal ones?). I'm not saying I know the answers to these questions, but I do know that they are not easy and shouldn't be used as the "gotcha" they so often are.
posted by praemunire at 8:55 AM on February 20, 2022 [27 favorites]
This is not an inappropriate concern to raise, but I feel like it often gets thrown into these kinds of conversations like a bomb with very little care or rigor. Because ultimately it touches on at least two very difficult questions: (1) assuming one can even know it, to what degree is it ethical to devote resources to anything other than the "most efficient" or "highest purpose" charity; and (2) to what degree is it ethical for one to do anything but devote all resources beyond those required for a bare subsistence to anything but charity? Very, very few people are actually living in such a way that they could even begin to bear the most demanding scrutiny on these points (a la Peter Singer), but really most of us would struggle to satisfy even a moderate degree of severity, and it's not just because we're lazy and selfish. If I donate several hundred dollars to help get local Afghani employees of the U.S. out and settled (which I actually did), am I allowed to donate money to get the animals who were dependent on them, or on people who are now dead or fled elsewhere, and who will probably die after short miserable lives without them, to rejoin them? Am I allowed to eat a $30 takeout dinner, when I could've eaten $2 of beans and rice and donated the rest to the Afghani employees? And there are more questions all the way down (is it ethical to presume that human lives mean more than animal ones?). I'm not saying I know the answers to these questions, but I do know that they are not easy and shouldn't be used as the "gotcha" they so often are.
posted by praemunire at 8:55 AM on February 20, 2022 [27 favorites]
My sister's beloved dog passed a few months ago, and she's been on the lookout for a new friend. We're in Minnesota, and have seen a lot of Petfinder pups advertised as having come from Texas and other locations in the south. I have mixed feelings about it, and about the foster/rescue system as a whole.
She found one pup through a small rescue, and - since it was a particularly adorable dog of the breed she was looking for - she called up the rescue to indicate interest immediately.
Long story short, it was a bad situation all around. The dog was super cute and sweet at first, but the foster was disorganized and the hand-off seemed a bit Back Alley. The dog was also smaller than advertised - like, half the size - and had clearly had a litter of puppies recently. We were like "huh..." but when you're looking at a homeless dog who is staring up at you with Disney eyes, you want to think the best, right?
I won't go too into it, but the vet said that the pup was probably half the advertised age (two years old at the most, rather than 4-5) and it looked like her puppies had been born less than eight weeks prior (the rescue said nothing about puppies); and she was probably not the breed that was advertised at all (there's no way to be 100% about any dog's breed, but this was nowhere near what was advertised). She had behavioral issues on top of that - all of which was undisclosed - and my sister was at a loss. She called up the rescue to ask for more info and help and they said "well if you don't want her we'll come get her." She didn't know what to do so they came back and took the dog away. This whole situation was a nightmare and absolutely crushing for my sister, who was already deeply mourning the loss of her old dog.
She's still looking for a new friend. but we're sticking to large, well-established rescues in our area. We don't know what to think about the one she got the dog from. The rescue seemed so fly-by-night to me. And there's so much emotion tied up in it ("why don't you want to help the poor puppy???") that she just felt bulldozed and like she'd done something horrible.
Is there some sort of regulating agency for rescues? Or, some set of agreed-upon standards that rescues need to adhere to? We're still pretty raw coming out of this mess, but I'd like to know what we could do/could have done. But it's so hard. There's such a huge spectrum between First Class Rescue Dog Airlines and Backalley Rescues R Us. Don't I want to help the puppies? Why come down on rescues when all they want to do is help the puppies, and they're doing their best? Oh I don't know! It's so hard.
posted by Gray Duck at 9:37 AM on February 20, 2022 [11 favorites]
She found one pup through a small rescue, and - since it was a particularly adorable dog of the breed she was looking for - she called up the rescue to indicate interest immediately.
Long story short, it was a bad situation all around. The dog was super cute and sweet at first, but the foster was disorganized and the hand-off seemed a bit Back Alley. The dog was also smaller than advertised - like, half the size - and had clearly had a litter of puppies recently. We were like "huh..." but when you're looking at a homeless dog who is staring up at you with Disney eyes, you want to think the best, right?
I won't go too into it, but the vet said that the pup was probably half the advertised age (two years old at the most, rather than 4-5) and it looked like her puppies had been born less than eight weeks prior (the rescue said nothing about puppies); and she was probably not the breed that was advertised at all (there's no way to be 100% about any dog's breed, but this was nowhere near what was advertised). She had behavioral issues on top of that - all of which was undisclosed - and my sister was at a loss. She called up the rescue to ask for more info and help and they said "well if you don't want her we'll come get her." She didn't know what to do so they came back and took the dog away. This whole situation was a nightmare and absolutely crushing for my sister, who was already deeply mourning the loss of her old dog.
She's still looking for a new friend. but we're sticking to large, well-established rescues in our area. We don't know what to think about the one she got the dog from. The rescue seemed so fly-by-night to me. And there's so much emotion tied up in it ("why don't you want to help the poor puppy???") that she just felt bulldozed and like she'd done something horrible.
Is there some sort of regulating agency for rescues? Or, some set of agreed-upon standards that rescues need to adhere to? We're still pretty raw coming out of this mess, but I'd like to know what we could do/could have done. But it's so hard. There's such a huge spectrum between First Class Rescue Dog Airlines and Backalley Rescues R Us. Don't I want to help the puppies? Why come down on rescues when all they want to do is help the puppies, and they're doing their best? Oh I don't know! It's so hard.
posted by Gray Duck at 9:37 AM on February 20, 2022 [11 favorites]
I appreciate both the happy stories and the cautionary tales and have totally considered fostering cats/kittens ever since obsessively following the Itty Bitty Kitty Committee (now only active on social media I believe).
That said, I would love for more attention and funding for programs that help low income people keep their pets like Pets for Life. Why are there so many dogs available in some parts of the country? A good chunk of the problem is poverty. Sure, there are cultural & regional differences in how companion animals are viewed and treated -- rural working dogs, barn cats, etc, - as well human population and financial resources, but there are also poor households or fixed income households who simply can't afford their pets. I mean, hell, think of all the horror stories about medical debt in the U.S.!
As someone who has learned a bit about international adoption (of people) from Korean adoptees, the biggest push by most is the focus on supporting the single parents and poor families who, due to stigma or lack of resources, were unable to keep their kids. There a big differences of course. The savior narrative, obviously, is deeply problematic when raising human children who are told explicitly by their parents that they would have been starving street children and that they should be grateful forever and ever. In contrast, my cats don't care that I tell the story about how they were rescued from a tree (and it doesn't change my behavior towards them except I buy them more perches and give them access to the top of the fridge).
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:40 AM on February 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
That said, I would love for more attention and funding for programs that help low income people keep their pets like Pets for Life. Why are there so many dogs available in some parts of the country? A good chunk of the problem is poverty. Sure, there are cultural & regional differences in how companion animals are viewed and treated -- rural working dogs, barn cats, etc, - as well human population and financial resources, but there are also poor households or fixed income households who simply can't afford their pets. I mean, hell, think of all the horror stories about medical debt in the U.S.!
As someone who has learned a bit about international adoption (of people) from Korean adoptees, the biggest push by most is the focus on supporting the single parents and poor families who, due to stigma or lack of resources, were unable to keep their kids. There a big differences of course. The savior narrative, obviously, is deeply problematic when raising human children who are told explicitly by their parents that they would have been starving street children and that they should be grateful forever and ever. In contrast, my cats don't care that I tell the story about how they were rescued from a tree (and it doesn't change my behavior towards them except I buy them more perches and give them access to the top of the fridge).
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:40 AM on February 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
Is there some sort of regulating agency for rescues? Or, some set of agreed-upon standards that rescues need to adhere to?
No, there isn't. I think it would be a good idea for some of the more established rescues to club together to at least establish a code of best practices, to provide guidance to the rescues and to give would-be adopters and volunteers some idea of what they should be looking for. Such an approach has its own problems, but given the extreme vulnerability of the beings in their care, I think it would on the whole be a positive change.
That said, I would love for more attention and funding for programs that help low income people keep their pets like Pets for Life.
One of my favorites, Detroit Dog Rescue, puts a fair amount of its resources towards such efforts. It really makes the rescue stand out, especially because it's in Detroit, where it could so easily become "suburban white ladies upset that those urban people aren't looking after their sweet puppies." (I'm sure that some people who donate think that way, of course, but it's not the dynamic of DDR itself.) Something one of the leaders said once has always stuck with me: "Where there are dogs in distress, there are people in distress."
posted by praemunire at 9:57 AM on February 20, 2022 [9 favorites]
No, there isn't. I think it would be a good idea for some of the more established rescues to club together to at least establish a code of best practices, to provide guidance to the rescues and to give would-be adopters and volunteers some idea of what they should be looking for. Such an approach has its own problems, but given the extreme vulnerability of the beings in their care, I think it would on the whole be a positive change.
That said, I would love for more attention and funding for programs that help low income people keep their pets like Pets for Life.
One of my favorites, Detroit Dog Rescue, puts a fair amount of its resources towards such efforts. It really makes the rescue stand out, especially because it's in Detroit, where it could so easily become "suburban white ladies upset that those urban people aren't looking after their sweet puppies." (I'm sure that some people who donate think that way, of course, but it's not the dynamic of DDR itself.) Something one of the leaders said once has always stuck with me: "Where there are dogs in distress, there are people in distress."
posted by praemunire at 9:57 AM on February 20, 2022 [9 favorites]
Are there *good* foster stories? How does adoption from foster work?
Sure, I fostered two cats and I'd say it was better than a direct-from-shelter adoption for both the cat and the adopter. And I knew what I was getting into.
The shelter fosters out cats for a few different reasons --
* Sheer capacity, foster as housing during an unusual surge.
* This cat is particularly stressed by the shelter environment (which is not great for any cat, much less dogs).
* The cat has a medical condition where fostering is either isolation from other cats who could catch it, or a kinder environment and more personal care.
Adoption was done as an event where people can go meet a bunch of the current foster cats and talk to the fosterers. I could give a clear picture of who liked laps and being The Highest Thing, and who was focused on crazed night zooming. One of the adopters gave some updates so I can know that one went well.
You can certainly see fostering as a small band-aid on top of the shelter system band-aid on the problem of pets under capitalism, but here we are. And I would say the shelter system, for all its flaws, provides an institutional baseline that is known: the cat could go back into the shelter, not great but not the worst thing. So none of the individuals get trapped into being the cat's only lifeline, the way you sometimes hear with one-off rescue operations.
posted by away for regrooving at 10:56 AM on February 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
Sure, I fostered two cats and I'd say it was better than a direct-from-shelter adoption for both the cat and the adopter. And I knew what I was getting into.
The shelter fosters out cats for a few different reasons --
* Sheer capacity, foster as housing during an unusual surge.
* This cat is particularly stressed by the shelter environment (which is not great for any cat, much less dogs).
* The cat has a medical condition where fostering is either isolation from other cats who could catch it, or a kinder environment and more personal care.
Adoption was done as an event where people can go meet a bunch of the current foster cats and talk to the fosterers. I could give a clear picture of who liked laps and being The Highest Thing, and who was focused on crazed night zooming. One of the adopters gave some updates so I can know that one went well.
You can certainly see fostering as a small band-aid on top of the shelter system band-aid on the problem of pets under capitalism, but here we are. And I would say the shelter system, for all its flaws, provides an institutional baseline that is known: the cat could go back into the shelter, not great but not the worst thing. So none of the individuals get trapped into being the cat's only lifeline, the way you sometimes hear with one-off rescue operations.
posted by away for regrooving at 10:56 AM on February 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
The 'rescue' movement can be sketchy AF. The breed-specific rescues take a lot of the more popular dogs, and the shelters are full of pit bulls, often re-labeled as Labrador Retrievers. Many people have excellent experience with pitties, but they are a difficult choice a lot of the time, and a terrible choice pretty often. I don't have the physical strength for a pit bull, certainly not in winter, when all the areas where I walk are icy. The only people I know who've had litters of puppies in the last several years are pit bull owners. It's sad that these dogs proliferate and they are the ones most likely to be euthanized.
In Maine, stray dogs are unlikely to survive winter, though the neighborhood stray cat survived a week of sub-zero nights. Several of us put out shelters of some sort, my next door neighbor leaves food. The desire for dogs is high and dogs are regularly brought to Maine form the South. I brought my last pal (pic in my profile) to Maine from Georgia, where the shelter was full of beautiful sweet dogs. I'm trying to decide if it's safe to travel and find a new dog in a kill shelter, and maybe bring one or two others as rescues.
How we treat animals, especially pets, who we have brought into human lives, is a measure of our humanity. I think it's fine to take care of them, up to a point, I guess. With so many humans at such great risk in the world, I give to those efforts, and give side-eye to massive donations for pets. But even people in refugee camps adopt pets; they are comfort.
posted by theora55 at 11:20 AM on February 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
In Maine, stray dogs are unlikely to survive winter, though the neighborhood stray cat survived a week of sub-zero nights. Several of us put out shelters of some sort, my next door neighbor leaves food. The desire for dogs is high and dogs are regularly brought to Maine form the South. I brought my last pal (pic in my profile) to Maine from Georgia, where the shelter was full of beautiful sweet dogs. I'm trying to decide if it's safe to travel and find a new dog in a kill shelter, and maybe bring one or two others as rescues.
How we treat animals, especially pets, who we have brought into human lives, is a measure of our humanity. I think it's fine to take care of them, up to a point, I guess. With so many humans at such great risk in the world, I give to those efforts, and give side-eye to massive donations for pets. But even people in refugee camps adopt pets; they are comfort.
posted by theora55 at 11:20 AM on February 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
Our current cats were trucked in from a few states away to the shelter we adopted them from. That shelter said this had always happened occasionally, full shelters 'spill' first locally and then farther, but covid triggered a lot more of it.
I wondered if lowered evictions meant fewer pets being lost into the adoption system. They stated that long-distance transport is not done because one shelter could take more animals, only when another is full; their understanding was that shelters in some areas were seeing typical inflow but low adoption out. Dunno why, precarity maybe.
They also noted that while most entries to the system are of one or two cats, the total numbers weight the pregnant females and their litters, and the batches like our cats came in, from a house of exponential cat breeding.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:21 AM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
I wondered if lowered evictions meant fewer pets being lost into the adoption system. They stated that long-distance transport is not done because one shelter could take more animals, only when another is full; their understanding was that shelters in some areas were seeing typical inflow but low adoption out. Dunno why, precarity maybe.
They also noted that while most entries to the system are of one or two cats, the total numbers weight the pregnant females and their litters, and the batches like our cats came in, from a house of exponential cat breeding.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:21 AM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
We got our Open-Box Dog in 2018 from one of these groups, down in Texas. I am glad we saved him, but he's kinda...broken.
We went to a couple of events. As an example, here in Rhode Island a car dealer emptied their showroom and service bays, and small agencies claimed a few square yards to show off their dogs. As mentioned upstream, most of the dogs were crosses of pitbull or chihuahua. *shrug* We didn't want those breeds, so we passed.
We kept looking online, though: they post pictures of dogs as the agency collects them, and then periodically they drive a convoy to New England or Oregon or wherever. We saw a little terrier mix one day who was coming our way. We asked to meet him the night before the next big event, and got directions to a local farm who was letting the agency park there and wash the dogs the night before. And yes, we agreed to take him after meeting him at night, in a noisy environment, with a lot of stressors. (In our defense, we also brought down my mother-in-law with her little dog, because we spend a lot of time with them, and a new dog had to be compatible.) They had a trailer that would fit 100 dogs in separate carriers, with air-conditioners; other van carrid volunteers who would get the dogs out to walk and pee every few hours.
I will say that our dog was neutered and chipped by the agency, as well as being given worm meds Just In Case. They didn't cut his hair, though: verrry shaggy. Also, he only has one eye, and hates trucks, most other dogs, and various girls and men (but loves others). He was house-broken already, and was very trainable.
All in all, he's a mixed bag. I love him, but I am aware of his flaws.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:24 AM on February 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
We went to a couple of events. As an example, here in Rhode Island a car dealer emptied their showroom and service bays, and small agencies claimed a few square yards to show off their dogs. As mentioned upstream, most of the dogs were crosses of pitbull or chihuahua. *shrug* We didn't want those breeds, so we passed.
We kept looking online, though: they post pictures of dogs as the agency collects them, and then periodically they drive a convoy to New England or Oregon or wherever. We saw a little terrier mix one day who was coming our way. We asked to meet him the night before the next big event, and got directions to a local farm who was letting the agency park there and wash the dogs the night before. And yes, we agreed to take him after meeting him at night, in a noisy environment, with a lot of stressors. (In our defense, we also brought down my mother-in-law with her little dog, because we spend a lot of time with them, and a new dog had to be compatible.) They had a trailer that would fit 100 dogs in separate carriers, with air-conditioners; other van carrid volunteers who would get the dogs out to walk and pee every few hours.
I will say that our dog was neutered and chipped by the agency, as well as being given worm meds Just In Case. They didn't cut his hair, though: verrry shaggy. Also, he only has one eye, and hates trucks, most other dogs, and various girls and men (but loves others). He was house-broken already, and was very trainable.
All in all, he's a mixed bag. I love him, but I am aware of his flaws.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:24 AM on February 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
Are people unaware this is a thing?
No joke the majority of dogs I know in Toronto are from out of province or out of county.
My own girl, Shakedown, is from northern Quebec.
posted by dobbs at 12:20 PM on February 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
No joke the majority of dogs I know in Toronto are from out of province or out of county.
My own girl, Shakedown, is from northern Quebec.
posted by dobbs at 12:20 PM on February 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
We live in Texas, which exports animals. We've gotten dogs from various agencies, with not great success.
We got Angel from the Houston SCPA. When I went down to sign the paperwork, I noted that she was covered in ticks. When I then went back to pick her up after she'd been fixed, she was still covered in ticks. They took her back and removed most, but we were still pulling some off of her and finding them around the house for the next week.
Next up was Baby. She was fostered here in Katy. She was terrified of people, but her foster lady was upfront about that, and we could see it when they did a home visit. The only issue there was the voucher they gave us to pay for getting her fixed was pretty much worthless.
Then there was the Pit Bull my daughter got this past summer, from a shelter in Beaumont. She was sweet and loving and TRIED TO KILL OUR DACHSHUND twice. So, she had to go back. When my daughter called, they said, "oh yeah, she attacks smaller dogs. We thought she'd be the only animal in the household." She now has a kitten she got from one of her professors. (Technically, we have it, until it gets fixed next week, then it'll be off to school. Much to the relief of our 3 dogs.)
posted by Spike Glee at 1:35 PM on February 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
We got Angel from the Houston SCPA. When I went down to sign the paperwork, I noted that she was covered in ticks. When I then went back to pick her up after she'd been fixed, she was still covered in ticks. They took her back and removed most, but we were still pulling some off of her and finding them around the house for the next week.
Next up was Baby. She was fostered here in Katy. She was terrified of people, but her foster lady was upfront about that, and we could see it when they did a home visit. The only issue there was the voucher they gave us to pay for getting her fixed was pretty much worthless.
Then there was the Pit Bull my daughter got this past summer, from a shelter in Beaumont. She was sweet and loving and TRIED TO KILL OUR DACHSHUND twice. So, she had to go back. When my daughter called, they said, "oh yeah, she attacks smaller dogs. We thought she'd be the only animal in the household." She now has a kitten she got from one of her professors. (Technically, we have it, until it gets fixed next week, then it'll be off to school. Much to the relief of our 3 dogs.)
posted by Spike Glee at 1:35 PM on February 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think anyone adopting an adult rescue needs to understand that it's hard to discern much of their personality initially. Even if they haven't experienced a lot of trauma out in the world, by the time they've traveled to their new homes they're shellshocked from new people, new places, new smells, different foods, handling, vet procedures (some of them may never have been!), etc. For a lot of dogs, that means shutting down to a varying degree; being docile out of fear, suppressing their true preferences and tendencies in favor of not being hurt or abandoned by unknown strangers. There was an AskMe recently from someone torn up with guilt about the idea of surrendering a dog who turned out just not to be compatible with her, but in most cases you can't know in advance. You have to take something of a leap of faith, and that's with a being you want to bring into your family for the rest of your life. Responsible rescues will emphasize this to adopters. Less careful ones...don't.
posted by praemunire at 3:12 PM on February 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 3:12 PM on February 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm not saying I know the answers to these questions, but I do know that they are not easy and shouldn't be used as the "gotcha" they so often are.
I feel like you are having this argument with someone who isn't me, even though you are replying to me. I expressed mixed feelings - a very mild sentiment that is far from a "gotcha".
posted by jacquilynne at 7:14 PM on February 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
I feel like you are having this argument with someone who isn't me, even though you are replying to me. I expressed mixed feelings - a very mild sentiment that is far from a "gotcha".
posted by jacquilynne at 7:14 PM on February 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
Great idea in theory but it sounds like badly executed in practice. We had our own problems with this, fostered several dogs from California. The rescue operation charged high fees and drove them up, but didn't seem to have good info on the dogs. One described as sweet was quite dangerous, aggressively lunging at anyone who came near whoever she was protecting at the time (this allegiance switched frequently, making it very difficult).
Another time we had a dog for a month and a half while they told us they had no good adopters applying, then it turned out a family that eventually adopted her had put in their application before we even got her! They had just been sitting on it.
Generally we got the feeling they were a shoestring operation that was maybe shady in some ways but did seem to be genuinely rescuing dogs. We're glad we did what we did, but we also stopped fostering through them. I'm not surprised to hear there are other operations like theirs.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 7:33 PM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Another time we had a dog for a month and a half while they told us they had no good adopters applying, then it turned out a family that eventually adopted her had put in their application before we even got her! They had just been sitting on it.
Generally we got the feeling they were a shoestring operation that was maybe shady in some ways but did seem to be genuinely rescuing dogs. We're glad we did what we did, but we also stopped fostering through them. I'm not surprised to hear there are other operations like theirs.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 7:33 PM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Great idea in theory but it sounds like badly executed in practice...I'm not surprised to hear there are other operations like theirs.
This is actually quite common. In the northern cities, I would be more surprised to meet a (non-pitbull) rescue who had not been adopted via transport than one that had. It can be done well, or poorly. It's not as if the underlying problems with adopting adult dogs become that much worse if the dog is brought in from another place than if the dog is taken right off the streets of the city, after all.
Surprised to hear that a rescue would charge you a fee for the privilege of fostering, though, but again...lack of national standards.
posted by praemunire at 10:08 PM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is actually quite common. In the northern cities, I would be more surprised to meet a (non-pitbull) rescue who had not been adopted via transport than one that had. It can be done well, or poorly. It's not as if the underlying problems with adopting adult dogs become that much worse if the dog is brought in from another place than if the dog is taken right off the streets of the city, after all.
Surprised to hear that a rescue would charge you a fee for the privilege of fostering, though, but again...lack of national standards.
posted by praemunire at 10:08 PM on February 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
praemunire: I think anyone adopting an adult rescue needs to understand that it's hard to discern much of their personality initially.
Yep, our little guy was super meek when we met him, and the volunteers said he was very submissive. (He's only like 19 pounds.) After he got comfortable with us, he was less friendly to new people.
He loves some people, though, so it's not a total fear. *shrug* Maybe he's just an introvert? Outside the house he is better, but he's not the little mouse we met!
(For example, bringing him outdoors on a leash and letting people give him a good treat before they come inside usually makes a good impression...but if they go down the basement and then come upstairs, sometimes he acts like they are a stranger, breaking in!)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:26 AM on February 21, 2022
Yep, our little guy was super meek when we met him, and the volunteers said he was very submissive. (He's only like 19 pounds.) After he got comfortable with us, he was less friendly to new people.
He loves some people, though, so it's not a total fear. *shrug* Maybe he's just an introvert? Outside the house he is better, but he's not the little mouse we met!
(For example, bringing him outdoors on a leash and letting people give him a good treat before they come inside usually makes a good impression...but if they go down the basement and then come upstairs, sometimes he acts like they are a stranger, breaking in!)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:26 AM on February 21, 2022
The best thing about our rescue dog is how each and every single time he is fed (and at twice a day for nearly two years, we're at like 1,300+ times) he will walk up to you and wag his tail and smile to make sure you know he appreciated his food.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:38 AM on February 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:38 AM on February 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
The best thing about our rescue dog is how each and every single time he is fed (and at twice a day for nearly two years, we're at like 1,300+ times) he will walk up to you and wag his tail and smile to make sure you know he appreciated his food.
I think if my Dad could have managed that even 50% of the time, my parents' marriage would have been a lot happier.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:43 AM on February 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
I think if my Dad could have managed that even 50% of the time, my parents' marriage would have been a lot happier.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:43 AM on February 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
As more and more dog tracks close due to changing legislation or the failing economics of betting on dog races, greyhound adoption groups have been transporting from farther away. While they are racing, it's not unusual for dogs to be moved around from track to track based on their performance, so the infrastructure already exists. Most adoption groups have always had relationships with "haulers," even just to bring dogs from the track upon retirement, so it's a logical evolution to haul from greater distances as supply and demand become more geographically distant. Here in the midwest there are no more dog tracks, so all of the dogs available through the local adoption group are likely from Florida or West Virginia.
Greyhound adopters, like dog adopters up north who want non-bully-breed dogs, are seeing a shortfall in supply to meet that demand. There's even a greyhound mix available from our group which is something I have NEVER seen before. When we adopted our most recent dog about a year ago, the rescue coordinator was saying she thinks the supply may fully dry up in the next 10 or so years as more tracks close. No matter your opinion about the closing of dog tracks, it will mean greyhounds as a breed will be changed forever. Greyhounds bred for show (AKC) are quite rare - there are 5 breeders for "greyhound puppies for sale" on the AKC website, vs say 26 pages of breeders of Australian Shepherds. We've come to terms with the possibility that our current two greyhounds might be our last.
posted by misskaz at 6:46 AM on February 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Greyhound adopters, like dog adopters up north who want non-bully-breed dogs, are seeing a shortfall in supply to meet that demand. There's even a greyhound mix available from our group which is something I have NEVER seen before. When we adopted our most recent dog about a year ago, the rescue coordinator was saying she thinks the supply may fully dry up in the next 10 or so years as more tracks close. No matter your opinion about the closing of dog tracks, it will mean greyhounds as a breed will be changed forever. Greyhounds bred for show (AKC) are quite rare - there are 5 breeders for "greyhound puppies for sale" on the AKC website, vs say 26 pages of breeders of Australian Shepherds. We've come to terms with the possibility that our current two greyhounds might be our last.
posted by misskaz at 6:46 AM on February 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
My greyhound raced in Florida and was then shipped up to Philadelphia to a greyhound adoption program here, most likely in a specially built greyhound trailer that holds something like 18, with a/c. That's pretty much how all greyhound adoption goes, at least the travel part.
The adoption program let's them settle into the large kennels. You fill out an application with a bunch of questions they use to match you with a dog, and at least in my case they did a great job with that. I appreciated that they didn't exclude people based on petty stuff. The owner is kind of intense and odd but the place is run very professionally. My dog was neutered, bathed, vaccinated, and had a full dental cleaning before I picked him up. They're also available if you have questions even years later.
Because they strongly lobbied for the end of greyhound racing, the tracks no longer send them dogs. They're now mostly getting dogs from Spain and the middle east, which come over as cargo on passenger planes. This does seem kind of extravagant to me, except that there are so few sighthounds for adoption in the US. They're weird dogs and I love living with one in a way that I don't think I would a "regular" dog (and I love most dogs). I have wondered if it would be more efficient to bring them over more like how horses are imported on cargo planes with appropriate facilities.
posted by sepviva at 6:47 AM on February 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
The adoption program let's them settle into the large kennels. You fill out an application with a bunch of questions they use to match you with a dog, and at least in my case they did a great job with that. I appreciated that they didn't exclude people based on petty stuff. The owner is kind of intense and odd but the place is run very professionally. My dog was neutered, bathed, vaccinated, and had a full dental cleaning before I picked him up. They're also available if you have questions even years later.
Because they strongly lobbied for the end of greyhound racing, the tracks no longer send them dogs. They're now mostly getting dogs from Spain and the middle east, which come over as cargo on passenger planes. This does seem kind of extravagant to me, except that there are so few sighthounds for adoption in the US. They're weird dogs and I love living with one in a way that I don't think I would a "regular" dog (and I love most dogs). I have wondered if it would be more efficient to bring them over more like how horses are imported on cargo planes with appropriate facilities.
posted by sepviva at 6:47 AM on February 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oh and by the way, as much as I will mourn not having greyhounds, I'm fine pivoting to more typical shelter mutts and bully breeds. But it's not without mixed feelings because I love greyhounds so much; they are such weird, special dogs.
posted by misskaz at 6:48 AM on February 21, 2022
posted by misskaz at 6:48 AM on February 21, 2022
I got my most recent dog in April from PAWS. He came in via a shelter transfer from Tennessee, and maybe who knows where before that, and best I can tell from vaccination records was in the shelter system for approximately 9 months before he came home to me. Reading some of these stories I've gotta say how awesome PAWS is. They did a ton of vet work, including major dental, had him placed with two different foster families to see how he was in different living situations, and only then marked him as adoptable with a lot of behavioral caveats.
Poor little guy has a lot of trauma from being institutionalized for so long (he's 17 lbs and it took three adults to give him one vaccine at the vet), and I think is also just an asshole on top of that. But at 9 now almost 10 years old and all the work that PAWS did to find a personality fit, I knew he wasn't going to be an easy, happy-go-lucky little guy. But he's MY little asshole, and he's home forever now, and I'm glad a system was in place that he could find his way to me from hundreds of miles away.
Say hello to Kuiper. (You may look but you may not touch.)
posted by phunniemee at 7:39 AM on February 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
Poor little guy has a lot of trauma from being institutionalized for so long (he's 17 lbs and it took three adults to give him one vaccine at the vet), and I think is also just an asshole on top of that. But at 9 now almost 10 years old and all the work that PAWS did to find a personality fit, I knew he wasn't going to be an easy, happy-go-lucky little guy. But he's MY little asshole, and he's home forever now, and I'm glad a system was in place that he could find his way to me from hundreds of miles away.
Say hello to Kuiper. (You may look but you may not touch.)
posted by phunniemee at 7:39 AM on February 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
phunnimee, my daughter volunteers at PAWS! She has nothing but good things to say about them and she's been very critical of orgs she's volunteered with in the past.
posted by cooker girl at 9:24 AM on February 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 9:24 AM on February 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
All of the rescues in my state I've tried to deal with are awful and I've nearly given up adopting a dog. My wife used to be a humane officer ffs , has a degree in it, and is probably a more knowledgeable dog caretaker than the people that run most rescues but... here we are dogless still.
And then the horror stories I've heard about these rescues... Before she became a teacher and she was still an active humane officer, my wife had to deal with a lot of them. The number that were basically just animal hoarding situations with a Facebook page would astound you. The number of which eventually have to surrender their neglected animals to the shelter system will astound you. The number who let sick and miserable dogs linger on because they are staunchly no kill, even by the vet, even out of mercy, will astound you. The classicst and racist judgments of mostly older white women who run them is terrible. So ship the dogs wherever you want, a mean old homophobe will decide my family can't have one, and I don't think that does anyone any good including the dogs. Not that there are no good rescues but... This isn't the way this should work! End rant.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 9:32 AM on February 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
And then the horror stories I've heard about these rescues... Before she became a teacher and she was still an active humane officer, my wife had to deal with a lot of them. The number that were basically just animal hoarding situations with a Facebook page would astound you. The number of which eventually have to surrender their neglected animals to the shelter system will astound you. The number who let sick and miserable dogs linger on because they are staunchly no kill, even by the vet, even out of mercy, will astound you. The classicst and racist judgments of mostly older white women who run them is terrible. So ship the dogs wherever you want, a mean old homophobe will decide my family can't have one, and I don't think that does anyone any good including the dogs. Not that there are no good rescues but... This isn't the way this should work! End rant.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 9:32 AM on February 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
I love greyhounds so much; they are such weird, special dogs.
A brindle greyhound (I didn't even know there was such a thing before!) used to live in my building. I'd see her guardian carrying her sometimes when she was clearly done with walking...given a greyhound's shape, a hilarious sight. For some reason she decided I was a Fren and would come up to greet me even in a busy lobby. I miss Penny.
The little guy staying with me now is from a southern state, brought up by a rescue. He'd been given basic vaccinations, tested for heartworm, had his chip updated (so someone must've adopted him previously :() and his license applied for, and neutered before transport, and he would've gone back to the vet shortly had he not stayed in foster for so short a time (basically a month from being picked up by the side of a highway to landing with me). He was a little underweight and had a pretty bad ear infection when I got him, but otherwise was in decent shape. I met his foster and he told me all he knew about him, but after two weeks, that obviously wasn't a ton. In addition to the information provided at the time of adoption, the rescue runs a Facebook page for fosters and adopters to discuss issues that come up, etc. I've supported the rescue for a decade now so I am a little biased, but I feel pretty satisfied with the experience. Now the poor little guy is really struggling with some of the radical changes to his life (my neighborhood isn't great for a wee country mouse and he thinks the cold wet weather is a torture device created by a hostile deity) and in the end he may need a new placement, but it's no one's fault, least of all the rescue's, and I am very confident that if he has to be rehomed they will use all the information I can give him about his character to find a place that will be a better match for his anxieties (i.e., not in the one of the noisiest few blocks of the Western world!).
posted by praemunire at 10:05 AM on February 21, 2022
A brindle greyhound (I didn't even know there was such a thing before!) used to live in my building. I'd see her guardian carrying her sometimes when she was clearly done with walking...given a greyhound's shape, a hilarious sight. For some reason she decided I was a Fren and would come up to greet me even in a busy lobby. I miss Penny.
The little guy staying with me now is from a southern state, brought up by a rescue. He'd been given basic vaccinations, tested for heartworm, had his chip updated (so someone must've adopted him previously :() and his license applied for, and neutered before transport, and he would've gone back to the vet shortly had he not stayed in foster for so short a time (basically a month from being picked up by the side of a highway to landing with me). He was a little underweight and had a pretty bad ear infection when I got him, but otherwise was in decent shape. I met his foster and he told me all he knew about him, but after two weeks, that obviously wasn't a ton. In addition to the information provided at the time of adoption, the rescue runs a Facebook page for fosters and adopters to discuss issues that come up, etc. I've supported the rescue for a decade now so I am a little biased, but I feel pretty satisfied with the experience. Now the poor little guy is really struggling with some of the radical changes to his life (my neighborhood isn't great for a wee country mouse and he thinks the cold wet weather is a torture device created by a hostile deity) and in the end he may need a new placement, but it's no one's fault, least of all the rescue's, and I am very confident that if he has to be rehomed they will use all the information I can give him about his character to find a place that will be a better match for his anxieties (i.e., not in the one of the noisiest few blocks of the Western world!).
posted by praemunire at 10:05 AM on February 21, 2022
Dog tax: listening to one of His People, clutching the Best Beloved toy, and making a gentle whistling sound.
This is as good as his life gets, I think.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:27 AM on February 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is as good as his life gets, I think.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:27 AM on February 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
We just recently got our two shadows. Both are imports from Texas or beyond with anxiety issues, and they get along like a house on fire. Lots and lots of work with them, but they're amazing.
The worst we saw was one "agency" that had no local office, had really high fees, and required 8 expensive training sessions with their trainers as a condition of adoption. We went with the local Humane, and a local foster farm instead.
posted by SunSnork at 4:25 PM on February 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
The worst we saw was one "agency" that had no local office, had really high fees, and required 8 expensive training sessions with their trainers as a condition of adoption. We went with the local Humane, and a local foster farm instead.
posted by SunSnork at 4:25 PM on February 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
It doesn't matter. I'm convinced you can't adopt a rescue unless you know someone on the inside.
I've tried three times.
The last time we were rejected - even though we have a lovely home, fenced yard, healthy dog, and work from home - because they won't match "any herding-type dog" with a family with children. Even though our other dog is a collie. We make good money and have taken care of lots of dogs, we have a great vet, etc. They treated us like trash all three times we tried to adopt.
We are in Michigan.
As I was leaving the so-called "shelter" depressed (for the third time) I saw a woman leaving the shelter with two herder pups, tossing them into a van full of kids, waving good-bye to her (obvious) friend on the inside.
It's completely fucked. I've filled out the paperwork a thousand times but I'm done. I'm sorry, it's incredibly sad, but the dog adoption people have made it impossible for regular people to adopt. I love my dog and I'm going to go ahead and purchase my next dog from a reasonable human being who seems ethical and honest.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 5:16 PM on February 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've tried three times.
The last time we were rejected - even though we have a lovely home, fenced yard, healthy dog, and work from home - because they won't match "any herding-type dog" with a family with children. Even though our other dog is a collie. We make good money and have taken care of lots of dogs, we have a great vet, etc. They treated us like trash all three times we tried to adopt.
We are in Michigan.
As I was leaving the so-called "shelter" depressed (for the third time) I saw a woman leaving the shelter with two herder pups, tossing them into a van full of kids, waving good-bye to her (obvious) friend on the inside.
It's completely fucked. I've filled out the paperwork a thousand times but I'm done. I'm sorry, it's incredibly sad, but the dog adoption people have made it impossible for regular people to adopt. I love my dog and I'm going to go ahead and purchase my next dog from a reasonable human being who seems ethical and honest.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 5:16 PM on February 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've never found a single "rescue" that actually wants us to be a home for their pups. It makes me sick.
Every single rescue operation around us in West Michigan treats us like suspicious people - like we're gonna hurt the dogs. It's so completely fucked up because we take incredibly good care of our animals.
I've spent more time filling out paperwork and background checks and entertaining home-visits for rescue folks than I've spent in employment opportunities.
This is why puppy mills will continue to exist. You make it impossible for us to adopt.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 5:24 PM on February 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Every single rescue operation around us in West Michigan treats us like suspicious people - like we're gonna hurt the dogs. It's so completely fucked up because we take incredibly good care of our animals.
I've spent more time filling out paperwork and background checks and entertaining home-visits for rescue folks than I've spent in employment opportunities.
This is why puppy mills will continue to exist. You make it impossible for us to adopt.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 5:24 PM on February 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Timely post for me, as we're seven weeks into fostering three puppy sisters (now two, since we found a foster-to-adopt home for the third). This is our first time fostering, and I knew from various friends going in that animal rescue people can be real weird. But the rescue we're volunteering with gets their animals from working in the Four Corners area, where they hold low cost spay and neuter clinics on the Navajo Nation and surrounding region every few weeks. So they're reasonably organized, and I feel much better about subsidizing that with my time and effort (and lack of sleep) than if they were just a transport-focused organization. But man are they understaffed and kind of disorganized. COVID's effects on the reservation meant fewer spay/neuter clinics last year and economic hardship, so now they're seeing more adult dog surrenders along with a puppy boom, and I get the sense that anything that isn't an emergency or directly in service of getting a puppy adopted is falling below their radar.
But on the plus side, these puppies are stinking adorable (emphasis on the stinking: I cannot emphasize how bad they smelled when we picked them up), our older dog has warmed to their shenanigans, and fostering all three meant we got our pick of the the litter, pictured here just before she fell asleep on the bar at the neighborhood brewery. If anyone near Denver is looking for a puppy, I have told my spouse we are not allowed to keep two puppies, even though her sister also has a face that's tough to say no to.
I love all the dog pictures in this thread, even though I am so tired.
posted by deludingmyself at 7:04 PM on February 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
But on the plus side, these puppies are stinking adorable (emphasis on the stinking: I cannot emphasize how bad they smelled when we picked them up), our older dog has warmed to their shenanigans, and fostering all three meant we got our pick of the the litter, pictured here just before she fell asleep on the bar at the neighborhood brewery. If anyone near Denver is looking for a puppy, I have told my spouse we are not allowed to keep two puppies, even though her sister also has a face that's tough to say no to.
I love all the dog pictures in this thread, even though I am so tired.
posted by deludingmyself at 7:04 PM on February 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
The paradox: You can’t get a dog from a breeder, that’s inhumane, you need to get a rescue; but people who let their dogs breed are inhumane. Eventually the biology catches up.
Utopia: People can keep their dogs through all life’s circumstances so rehoming is rare, and responsible breeders create healthy, good-tempered dogs that are bespoke before their conception.
The now: Everyone loves puppies but god forbid we plan them.
posted by Hypatia at 8:20 PM on February 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
Utopia: People can keep their dogs through all life’s circumstances so rehoming is rare, and responsible breeders create healthy, good-tempered dogs that are bespoke before their conception.
The now: Everyone loves puppies but god forbid we plan them.
posted by Hypatia at 8:20 PM on February 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
How I got my shelter dog:
Formally applied as an adopter to the shelter;
Formally filled out an adoption application for every dog which fit my hopes (senior, under 30 lbs, ok with other dogs), which was not many dogs;
Told my friends I was looking to adopt a crusty old friend;
Friend had a friend who volunteers at the shelter, she hooked us up over email;
I explained over email that I had a nice quiet life with one polite dog and was specifically in the market for a nervous little fellow who couldn't be placed, as I have neither children nor men in my home (common triggers for nervous little fellows) and my income can support serious vet concerns;
Still waited 4 months;
Got a mean little thing with mental health issues and half his teeth who absolutely would not be a safe pet in a home with children or probably even more than one adult. He's real cute tho.
So: yes to a person who can personally vouch for you, but also in a lot of ways the secondhand dog market is like the secondhand market for late model used cars. You don't see popular/recognizable breeds or well adjusted dogs sitting around for long in the shelter.
And also: my first dog is a purebred. I've written around mefi before about that experience and I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a responsibly, intentionally bred dog. I just fell in love with the crusty old fogeys and that's where I'm at right now.
posted by phunniemee at 8:34 PM on February 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
Formally applied as an adopter to the shelter;
Formally filled out an adoption application for every dog which fit my hopes (senior, under 30 lbs, ok with other dogs), which was not many dogs;
Told my friends I was looking to adopt a crusty old friend;
Friend had a friend who volunteers at the shelter, she hooked us up over email;
I explained over email that I had a nice quiet life with one polite dog and was specifically in the market for a nervous little fellow who couldn't be placed, as I have neither children nor men in my home (common triggers for nervous little fellows) and my income can support serious vet concerns;
Still waited 4 months;
Got a mean little thing with mental health issues and half his teeth who absolutely would not be a safe pet in a home with children or probably even more than one adult. He's real cute tho.
So: yes to a person who can personally vouch for you, but also in a lot of ways the secondhand dog market is like the secondhand market for late model used cars. You don't see popular/recognizable breeds or well adjusted dogs sitting around for long in the shelter.
And also: my first dog is a purebred. I've written around mefi before about that experience and I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a responsibly, intentionally bred dog. I just fell in love with the crusty old fogeys and that's where I'm at right now.
posted by phunniemee at 8:34 PM on February 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
Now that you mention it, my niece & nephew wanted to volunteer at adoption events, so their mom drove them. That meant that she got involved a bit, too, and we got a couple of "heads-up!" texts from her about good dogs just hitting the FB feed.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:29 AM on February 22, 2022
posted by wenestvedt at 6:29 AM on February 22, 2022
Re good foster experiences: we got our dog through a DC-based organization (City Dogs Rescue), which is exactly the sort of "kennel-free" transport rescue organization being discussed. They transport dogs (and more recently cats, but in terms of raw numbers mostly dogs) from areas with a surplus in kill shelters, to areas with high demand, in DC and its suburbs.
CDR was founded by a couple of people in DC who were disappointed that other rescue organizations wouldn't let them adopt a dog because they lived in an urban apartment, which they thought was leading people directly into buying dogs from breeders or puppy mills. They do some very high-quality mandatory education for first-time dog owners, ensure that adoptees have plans in place for mid-day dog walking services or similar, and generally seem to balance their due diligence with the real fact that anyone can walk in off the street to a pet store and walk out with a dog, zero qualifications required. While I understand the restrictions that some rescue groups put on potential adoptees for the benefit of the dogs, at some point you're just helping the breeders/mills.
We had a fantastic experience and I don't have anything negative to say about the organization, although I'm sure that it's imperfect. But our dog was brought up from a municipal shelter in Bladen County, NC (which seems to contain a factory for producing pit-lab mixes), and handed off immediately to a foster, who happened to be a friend of ours. She's a true mensch, and has fostered something like 50+ dogs over the past 10 years or so, which I can barely wrap my head around. (Her resident dog probably deserves even more credit, for dealing with this revolving door of random dogs from all over the East Coast.) She knew we were looking for a dog and reached out, because she thought it would be a good fit with this particular dog.
We did a "foster to adopt", which is really an "adopt with return policy", in case the dog and our cats didn't get along. If things hadn't worked out, we would have been out a couple of hundred bucks I guess, but it didn't seem unreasonable. And after some initial drama and claw-swiping, everyone got along. It's been 4 great years and counting since then.
While I think there are some issues with transportation of adoptable animals around the country and world, it seems like the best way to keep the demand for pets down in areas where it might otherwise be high enough to encourage "backyard breeding" and the commercial transportation of animals from places with poor regulation (in the Northeast US, this seems to be Pennsylvania) to meet that demand. If someone wants a dog, they're going to get a dog... it might as well be via adoption, rather than via someone making money by bringing more dogs into the world when there are already too many.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:32 PM on February 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
CDR was founded by a couple of people in DC who were disappointed that other rescue organizations wouldn't let them adopt a dog because they lived in an urban apartment, which they thought was leading people directly into buying dogs from breeders or puppy mills. They do some very high-quality mandatory education for first-time dog owners, ensure that adoptees have plans in place for mid-day dog walking services or similar, and generally seem to balance their due diligence with the real fact that anyone can walk in off the street to a pet store and walk out with a dog, zero qualifications required. While I understand the restrictions that some rescue groups put on potential adoptees for the benefit of the dogs, at some point you're just helping the breeders/mills.
We had a fantastic experience and I don't have anything negative to say about the organization, although I'm sure that it's imperfect. But our dog was brought up from a municipal shelter in Bladen County, NC (which seems to contain a factory for producing pit-lab mixes), and handed off immediately to a foster, who happened to be a friend of ours. She's a true mensch, and has fostered something like 50+ dogs over the past 10 years or so, which I can barely wrap my head around. (Her resident dog probably deserves even more credit, for dealing with this revolving door of random dogs from all over the East Coast.) She knew we were looking for a dog and reached out, because she thought it would be a good fit with this particular dog.
We did a "foster to adopt", which is really an "adopt with return policy", in case the dog and our cats didn't get along. If things hadn't worked out, we would have been out a couple of hundred bucks I guess, but it didn't seem unreasonable. And after some initial drama and claw-swiping, everyone got along. It's been 4 great years and counting since then.
While I think there are some issues with transportation of adoptable animals around the country and world, it seems like the best way to keep the demand for pets down in areas where it might otherwise be high enough to encourage "backyard breeding" and the commercial transportation of animals from places with poor regulation (in the Northeast US, this seems to be Pennsylvania) to meet that demand. If someone wants a dog, they're going to get a dog... it might as well be via adoption, rather than via someone making money by bringing more dogs into the world when there are already too many.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:32 PM on February 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
The paradox: You can’t get a dog from a breeder, that’s inhumane, you need to get a rescue; but people who let their dogs breed are inhumane. Eventually the biology catches up.It's really tough. I have family friends who are professional breeders. Every dog finds a good home and is loved, and there's a no-questions-asked take back policy among every breeder I know. I'm pretty sure they're not hurting anybody, except possibly hurting the demand for shelter animals. As icky as I personally find the whole breeding/show world (to be honest, largely for aesthetic reasons), I'm not sure "only accidental breeding by people who don't give a damn followed by neglect and then adoption" is the best way to fill the demand people have for dogs. Compared to the ethics of most things I personally do or contribute to by living in the contemporary world, it seems several pages down on the list.
I'm far less convinced when it comes to cats. There are an infinite number of cats and not much that selecting a specific breed tells you except for specific health problems and weird vocal ticks.
posted by eotvos at 9:14 AM on February 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't know if discussing breeding qua breeding is going to be considered a derail here or not, but it seems germane to the topic. So here goes.
I don't have any theoretical opposition to dog breeding. In a more-perfect world, where there weren't any stray or abandoned dogs, and breeders only sold dogs to non-breeders after sterilization or with some sort of firm (i.e. a financial bond) commitment not to let them reproduce, and where breeding was a regulated activity overseen by a competent government agency or similar, and the breeding of dogs for maladaptive aesthetics wasn't permitted... sure, game on.
But we very much do not live in that world. There is a vast surplus of companion dogs in the US, to say nothing of the world (where the majority of dogs are "village dogs", existing on the periphery of human civilization), and it doesn't seem to me that the majority of dog breeders in the US are particularly concerned with the ethical ramifications of their activities.
Sure, there are exceptions: cf. perennial Mefi crush (to which I'm 100% a part) Blair Braverman and the Ugly Dogs, which are bred for dogsledding (which requires good health and temperament) rather than to an arbitrary aesthetic breed "standard".
But most of the "kennel club" dog breeders, to say nothing of "backyard breeders" in places with non-existent regulation like Pennsylvania, don't appear to be like that. They're producing dogs as a cash crop for affluent people who want companion animals, a demand that could pretty easily be met via adoption (particularly if it were well-managed and coordinated nationally or even internationally) and that doesn't seem defensible to me. It's not even clear that "purebred" dogs make especially good companion animals in many cases, as the number of them that end up in shelters testifies to. I'd wager quite a bit that the average Appalachian cur probably makes a better family pet than the vast majority of purebred dogs, just because the selection pressure on a dog that survives from handouts around the modern equivalent of the campfire is intensely pro-social, and maladaptive genetics (whether poor temperament or medical problems) probably doesn't result in survival.
Could we probably breed an even better family pet than what random genetics and people tossing spare McDonalds burgers to friendly mutts produces? I don't see any reason why not. I find the concept of dog breeding pretty fascinating, actually. Who knows what we could produce if we made a concerted effort to breed for sociability, or communications ability, or generalized problem-solving capacity, without regard for stupid stuff like coat length and gait patterns. But current dog breeding is so far from that, that I have real trouble not wanting to see it all regulated into near-nonexistence for a decade or two. Call me back when there's an actual shortage of companion dogs and we can talk about intentional breeding again.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:33 AM on February 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't have any theoretical opposition to dog breeding. In a more-perfect world, where there weren't any stray or abandoned dogs, and breeders only sold dogs to non-breeders after sterilization or with some sort of firm (i.e. a financial bond) commitment not to let them reproduce, and where breeding was a regulated activity overseen by a competent government agency or similar, and the breeding of dogs for maladaptive aesthetics wasn't permitted... sure, game on.
But we very much do not live in that world. There is a vast surplus of companion dogs in the US, to say nothing of the world (where the majority of dogs are "village dogs", existing on the periphery of human civilization), and it doesn't seem to me that the majority of dog breeders in the US are particularly concerned with the ethical ramifications of their activities.
Sure, there are exceptions: cf. perennial Mefi crush (to which I'm 100% a part) Blair Braverman and the Ugly Dogs, which are bred for dogsledding (which requires good health and temperament) rather than to an arbitrary aesthetic breed "standard".
But most of the "kennel club" dog breeders, to say nothing of "backyard breeders" in places with non-existent regulation like Pennsylvania, don't appear to be like that. They're producing dogs as a cash crop for affluent people who want companion animals, a demand that could pretty easily be met via adoption (particularly if it were well-managed and coordinated nationally or even internationally) and that doesn't seem defensible to me. It's not even clear that "purebred" dogs make especially good companion animals in many cases, as the number of them that end up in shelters testifies to. I'd wager quite a bit that the average Appalachian cur probably makes a better family pet than the vast majority of purebred dogs, just because the selection pressure on a dog that survives from handouts around the modern equivalent of the campfire is intensely pro-social, and maladaptive genetics (whether poor temperament or medical problems) probably doesn't result in survival.
Could we probably breed an even better family pet than what random genetics and people tossing spare McDonalds burgers to friendly mutts produces? I don't see any reason why not. I find the concept of dog breeding pretty fascinating, actually. Who knows what we could produce if we made a concerted effort to breed for sociability, or communications ability, or generalized problem-solving capacity, without regard for stupid stuff like coat length and gait patterns. But current dog breeding is so far from that, that I have real trouble not wanting to see it all regulated into near-nonexistence for a decade or two. Call me back when there's an actual shortage of companion dogs and we can talk about intentional breeding again.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:33 AM on February 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Who knows what we could produce if we made a concerted effort
I would also like a rakunk.
posted by phunniemee at 11:38 AM on February 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would also like a rakunk.
posted by phunniemee at 11:38 AM on February 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would also like a rakunk.I think there's a realistic chance I'll be still alive and rich enough to make a GM flying fox with a cat's brain. I'm not sure I have the patience (or ethics) to try to domesticate the existing ones. I certainly don't have the apartment space.
But, maybe the de-extincted flying dinosaurs will be even more fun. Or the flying rats.
posted by eotvos at 3:47 PM on February 23, 2022
Per The Telegraph, as reported by the Washington Post (opinion), a court in Norway has banned further breeding of the English Bulldog and Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, on animal-cruelty grounds.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:00 AM on February 24, 2022
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:00 AM on February 24, 2022
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