Recommended reading: the first notes toward a femcel canon
May 27, 2022 6:33 AM Subscribe
For the purposes of this list, something is femcel if it involves 1) being a woman 2) who is experiencing romantic and sexual rejection 3) and does not want to be. As we will discuss, there are books for the better-adjusted femcel, about the pleasure of living life on your own terms or whatever. But this list is, primarily, for the brooders. There are of course many other micro-canons which overlap: sad girls, alcoholic girls, crazy girls, and so on. But this list is for the girls who are out there listening to “Somebody To Lay Down Beside Me” on repeat.The Femcel Canon, by essayist B.D. McClay (previously discussed here and here)
Okay, by clicking through I have learned that a biography of Joanna Russ came out in 2020, an extremely important fact that was obscured by the pandemic.
The first couple of paragraphs of this OP are funny and insightful!
posted by Frowner at 7:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
The first couple of paragraphs of this OP are funny and insightful!
posted by Frowner at 7:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Self-reinforcing pathological communities are legitimately scary.
Sure, but so far there's not much evidence for a self-reinforcing pathological community galvanizing around the femcel-identity. The article linked seems pretty tongue-in-cheek, complaining that tumbler users in possession of boyfriends are appropriating the femcel label for shallow aesthetics - the gall - and then using that as a jumping off point to recommend some literary classics about women struggling with a lack of romantic success.
Of course there's a notion of glamorizing the tragic spinster-life - and the tumbler boyfriend havers are accused of stolen valor - but it's also poking fun at the impulse. I don't see much danger in that sort of mockery, it's a more gentle, protective sort of self-depreciating irony, where the object is also the subject of the irony and definitely in on the joke.
If incels could pull that off, we wouldn't have the problems we have.
I will certainly have a look at some of the books she recommends.
posted by sohalt at 7:24 AM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
Sure, but so far there's not much evidence for a self-reinforcing pathological community galvanizing around the femcel-identity. The article linked seems pretty tongue-in-cheek, complaining that tumbler users in possession of boyfriends are appropriating the femcel label for shallow aesthetics - the gall - and then using that as a jumping off point to recommend some literary classics about women struggling with a lack of romantic success.
Of course there's a notion of glamorizing the tragic spinster-life - and the tumbler boyfriend havers are accused of stolen valor - but it's also poking fun at the impulse. I don't see much danger in that sort of mockery, it's a more gentle, protective sort of self-depreciating irony, where the object is also the subject of the irony and definitely in on the joke.
If incels could pull that off, we wouldn't have the problems we have.
I will certainly have a look at some of the books she recommends.
posted by sohalt at 7:24 AM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
Well put, leotrotsky.
The potentially toxic elements of this movement are already being documented. I've personally witnessed more than a few incidents online which have suggested to me that there is some significant crossover between the femcel and TERF communities, presumably finding common ground in that particularly hideous wedge of second wave feminism that's been taken over by those types.
What gets to me is the way this community seems to often turn on other women, in the exact same way the incel community also turns on women. In either space, a woman who is seen to embody social norms or beauty standards, who is body positive or loves herself openly, or (god forbid) has sex, is the enemy. It feels like more puritanical misogyny in a slightly different package.
it's a more gentle, protective sort of self-depreciating irony
Bless your heart. The Reddit version of this community tells a very different story, unfortunately.
posted by fight or flight at 7:26 AM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
The potentially toxic elements of this movement are already being documented. I've personally witnessed more than a few incidents online which have suggested to me that there is some significant crossover between the femcel and TERF communities, presumably finding common ground in that particularly hideous wedge of second wave feminism that's been taken over by those types.
What gets to me is the way this community seems to often turn on other women, in the exact same way the incel community also turns on women. In either space, a woman who is seen to embody social norms or beauty standards, who is body positive or loves herself openly, or (god forbid) has sex, is the enemy. It feels like more puritanical misogyny in a slightly different package.
it's a more gentle, protective sort of self-depreciating irony
Bless your heart. The Reddit version of this community tells a very different story, unfortunately.
posted by fight or flight at 7:26 AM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
Oh, great, I'm a femcel. :(
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:27 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:27 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
What gets to me is the way this community seems to often turn on other women, in the exact same way the incel community also turns on women. In either space, a woman who is seen to embody social norms or beauty standards, or (god forbid) has sex, is the enemy. It feels like more puritanical misogyny in a slightly different package.
this is the crux of it all.
same knife new handle.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:34 AM on May 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
this is the crux of it all.
same knife new handle.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:34 AM on May 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
Oh my god, I also learned that I wrote a long comment on the biography of Joanna Russ at the time and then totally forgot about all of it. The pandemic!
Anyway! I read all the Barbara Pym novels at the start of the pandemic. They are, as my father says, a bit acid, but not really as depressing about relationships as they may first appear.
Margaret Drabble's novel The Middle Ground is, IIRC, a pretty good feminist-adjacent novel about an unpartnered straight woman who would have preferred it not to be so.
The Puttermesser Papers, a book by Cynthia Ozick so bleak and terrible that though I read it once at seventeen it has haunted me for thirty years, would probably belong on this list.
posted by Frowner at 7:34 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Anyway! I read all the Barbara Pym novels at the start of the pandemic. They are, as my father says, a bit acid, but not really as depressing about relationships as they may first appear.
Margaret Drabble's novel The Middle Ground is, IIRC, a pretty good feminist-adjacent novel about an unpartnered straight woman who would have preferred it not to be so.
The Puttermesser Papers, a book by Cynthia Ozick so bleak and terrible that though I read it once at seventeen it has haunted me for thirty years, would probably belong on this list.
posted by Frowner at 7:34 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
I've personally witnessed more than a few incidents online which have suggested to me that there is some significant crossover between the femcel and TERF communities,
Shit, I forgot Terfs.
posted by sohalt at 7:35 AM on May 27, 2022
Shit, I forgot Terfs.
posted by sohalt at 7:35 AM on May 27, 2022
(Also fwiw, the term "pink pill" is also used by TERFs to describe the process of "fetishization" or "indoctrination" of gay men into becoming trans women. Which is absolute horseshit but, just a warning in case anyone here wanted to start using the term. It is loaded and it will probably upset people that you don't mean to upset.)
posted by fight or flight at 7:37 AM on May 27, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 7:37 AM on May 27, 2022 [20 favorites]
Could the info paragraph be updated to note that this is not for all women, but for straight cis women? Nothing that's aimed at lesbian women and/or trans women and/or BIPOC women is ever just described as being "for women."
posted by bile and syntax at 7:37 AM on May 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 7:37 AM on May 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
Could the info paragraph be updated to note that this is not for all women, but for straight cis women?
For whats it's worth, the Femcel canon linked also includes a reference to Sylvia Townsend Warner.
Also recommended are her letters, for various reasons, but partly to track her frequently unhappy relationship with her lover, Valentine Ackland, who had at various moments left Townsend Warner for both the Catholic Church and for other women.
But the linked article's notion of femcel is probably really different from the one in the apparent actual online communities, which do seem to lean TERF.
posted by sohalt at 7:55 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
For whats it's worth, the Femcel canon linked also includes a reference to Sylvia Townsend Warner.
Also recommended are her letters, for various reasons, but partly to track her frequently unhappy relationship with her lover, Valentine Ackland, who had at various moments left Townsend Warner for both the Catholic Church and for other women.
But the linked article's notion of femcel is probably really different from the one in the apparent actual online communities, which do seem to lean TERF.
posted by sohalt at 7:55 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oh, great, I'm a femcel. :(
By the "has been single forever, not entirely by choice ,likes Barbara Pym and Lolly Willowes" metric, so am I, and what an awful word. What an awful scene. I tend to favor "Uncoupled Bon Vivant" There are moments of days when I'm frustrated or bitter that I've yet to uncover the co-captain for my metaphorical pirate ship who finds me as sexy, charming, and witty as I am. But I'm not the easiest sell, and I know it (and honestly, that may have less to do with looks than I have thought, which is both a relief and a disappointment). I'm also pretty good at being single, and I know that too. I have lots of friends. I throw great parties. I'm not afraid of dressing up and dining out alone. Sometimes it would be cool to have someone to go to shows with or take a hike with but if I'm honest, most of my partnered friends only do shit together about 50% of the time. I have zero idea how I would integrate someone else's stuff into my life at this point. And I'm mostly talking about tangible objects.
That said, this is a pretty good Greatest Hits of Spinster Lit playlist. I'm DELIGHTED it mostly steered clear of the Gothic variety of spurned crone and thus did not contain any Faulknerian ladies (the titular Emily, of a Rose for is the one everyone thinks of but Joanna Burden is actually the worst one), or Miss Havishams. I could make a real case for Anita Brookner ("Fraud" in particular). Also Molly Keane's "Good Behaviour" is dastardly and a bit sociopathic and probably closer to what the idea of "Femcel" conjures. I also think there should be a subcategory for "single, desperate, in freefall due to lost repuation" which would include, like, "House of Mirth", and a bunch of the early Jean Rhys novels. Yes, in the latter case, there is sex, but basically that just ends up with someone becoming an alcoholic prostitute.
I think though that it's also fair to point out that most of literature is about terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad relationships or good-for-now relationships that end tragically. I mean, sure, cry into your pillow about "Washington Square" if you like but, like, at least you're not involved in 99% of any other relationships in a Henry James novel.
posted by thivaia at 8:00 AM on May 27, 2022 [38 favorites]
By the "has been single forever, not entirely by choice ,likes Barbara Pym and Lolly Willowes" metric, so am I, and what an awful word. What an awful scene. I tend to favor "Uncoupled Bon Vivant" There are moments of days when I'm frustrated or bitter that I've yet to uncover the co-captain for my metaphorical pirate ship who finds me as sexy, charming, and witty as I am. But I'm not the easiest sell, and I know it (and honestly, that may have less to do with looks than I have thought, which is both a relief and a disappointment). I'm also pretty good at being single, and I know that too. I have lots of friends. I throw great parties. I'm not afraid of dressing up and dining out alone. Sometimes it would be cool to have someone to go to shows with or take a hike with but if I'm honest, most of my partnered friends only do shit together about 50% of the time. I have zero idea how I would integrate someone else's stuff into my life at this point. And I'm mostly talking about tangible objects.
That said, this is a pretty good Greatest Hits of Spinster Lit playlist. I'm DELIGHTED it mostly steered clear of the Gothic variety of spurned crone and thus did not contain any Faulknerian ladies (the titular Emily, of a Rose for is the one everyone thinks of but Joanna Burden is actually the worst one), or Miss Havishams. I could make a real case for Anita Brookner ("Fraud" in particular). Also Molly Keane's "Good Behaviour" is dastardly and a bit sociopathic and probably closer to what the idea of "Femcel" conjures. I also think there should be a subcategory for "single, desperate, in freefall due to lost repuation" which would include, like, "House of Mirth", and a bunch of the early Jean Rhys novels. Yes, in the latter case, there is sex, but basically that just ends up with someone becoming an alcoholic prostitute.
I think though that it's also fair to point out that most of literature is about terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad relationships or good-for-now relationships that end tragically. I mean, sure, cry into your pillow about "Washington Square" if you like but, like, at least you're not involved in 99% of any other relationships in a Henry James novel.
posted by thivaia at 8:00 AM on May 27, 2022 [38 favorites]
Any other titular femcels want make a marriage pact?
posted by Jacen at 8:10 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacen at 8:10 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think though that it's also fair to point out that most of literature is about terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad relationshipsAll happy dates are alike, but every unhappy date is unhappy in its own way.
This is interesting. Both the article and the comments.
posted by eotvos at 8:11 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Huh, I emit zero sexual energy given male response to me over the years, and have always been vaguely irritated at the trope that any woman can get sex on request. The twist is that I'm married. The twist on the twist is that my husband unilaterally ended our sexual relationship years ago due to mental issues and medication. And I like Barbara Pym very much and just listened to the Backlisted episode on her and also thought Cassandra at the Wedding sounded like an interesting book.
I will not try and encroach on the identity, though. I'm working on a Crochety Older Woman In Eye-Searing Clothing thing.
posted by PussKillian at 8:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
I will not try and encroach on the identity, though. I'm working on a Crochety Older Woman In Eye-Searing Clothing thing.
posted by PussKillian at 8:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
There are moments of days when I'm frustrated or bitter that I've yet to uncover the co-captain for my metaphorical pirate ship who finds me as sexy, charming, and witty as I am. But I'm not the easiest sell, and I know it (and honestly, that may have less to do with looks than I have thought, which is both a relief and a disappointment).
Yeah, this. This is what I was feeling for most of my dating life - I was bummed I hadn't found someone, but I also wasn't going to settle, and I also wasn't going to change who I was for the sake of "finding someone". I knew I wasn't to everyone's taste and didn't want to change that, but sometimes that specific fact just was a bummer, you know?
The good news is that when I hit menopause, a lot of the biochemicals that seemed to be driving a lot of the dating urge just went "poof", and the whole rest of my life rushed in all "FINALLY, we've been here all along" and it looked pretty damn okay and so yay.
Still, having something to read then which spoke to that very specific feeling would have been a comfort on occasion.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:17 AM on May 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
Yeah, this. This is what I was feeling for most of my dating life - I was bummed I hadn't found someone, but I also wasn't going to settle, and I also wasn't going to change who I was for the sake of "finding someone". I knew I wasn't to everyone's taste and didn't want to change that, but sometimes that specific fact just was a bummer, you know?
The good news is that when I hit menopause, a lot of the biochemicals that seemed to be driving a lot of the dating urge just went "poof", and the whole rest of my life rushed in all "FINALLY, we've been here all along" and it looked pretty damn okay and so yay.
Still, having something to read then which spoke to that very specific feeling would have been a comfort on occasion.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:17 AM on May 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
I think though that it's also fair to point out that most of literature is about terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad relationships
So true. No better cure for any bitterness about a femcel-fate than a well-stocked library. Nothing like reading Tess of the D'Urbervilles to drive home the point that inspiring love and desire in men might not be all it's cracked up to be. A cursory survey of the literary canon will quickly reveal that tragic spinster is one of the better options.
posted by sohalt at 8:18 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
So true. No better cure for any bitterness about a femcel-fate than a well-stocked library. Nothing like reading Tess of the D'Urbervilles to drive home the point that inspiring love and desire in men might not be all it's cracked up to be. A cursory survey of the literary canon will quickly reveal that tragic spinster is one of the better options.
posted by sohalt at 8:18 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Uh wut. These days femcels are known TERFs. They're less violent ideologically than incels, but they're hateful to the extreme and their communities are pity parties that encourage self-destruction and fixed mindsets. If you see a woman online angrily calling other women "pick mes," chances are she's a femcel.
posted by Stoof at 8:24 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Stoof at 8:24 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's hard for people who want to be coupled but aren't, both men and women. University is so much a part of middle-class couple-formation now, and it's only a few short years. And we spend all the time being ANGRY AT OUR PHONES instead of bowling or whatever, so harder to meet people. Sympathies to everyone.
posted by one more day at 8:27 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by one more day at 8:27 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
are terfs "less violent ideologically"? what does that even mean?
and "pickmes" isn't a term exclusively used by femcels, either?
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:29 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
and "pickmes" isn't a term exclusively used by femcels, either?
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:29 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
are terfs "less violent ideologically"? what does that even mean?
Femcels don't typically call for mass rape or mass murder; incels do. Try reading closely before attempting to call me out. That goes for your other attempt as well.
Oh, great, I'm a femcel. :(
You're transphobic, viciously hate other women, and rage about gender roles not being upheld? Seriously people, do not call yourself a femcel unless you want others to assume those things about you. Those two articles are way off the mark and I feel like I'm in upside-down land reading some of these comments.
posted by Stoof at 8:32 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Femcels don't typically call for mass rape or mass murder; incels do. Try reading closely before attempting to call me out. That goes for your other attempt as well.
Oh, great, I'm a femcel. :(
You're transphobic, viciously hate other women, and rage about gender roles not being upheld? Seriously people, do not call yourself a femcel unless you want others to assume those things about you. Those two articles are way off the mark and I feel like I'm in upside-down land reading some of these comments.
posted by Stoof at 8:32 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
In THE HEIRESS (or WASHINGTON SQUARE) the heroine gets to reject the man who rejected her, so that's something! Bit of payback, bit more positive?
posted by one more day at 8:34 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by one more day at 8:34 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
These days femcels are known TERFs.
No, they're not. There may be a lot of overlap, but they're not the same thing.
They're less violent ideologically than incels
Femcels, maybe, but TERFs are not at all less violent ideologically, and that's not even getting into the high levels of support transphobes in general have among politicians and the media.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:35 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
No, they're not. There may be a lot of overlap, but they're not the same thing.
They're less violent ideologically than incels
Femcels, maybe, but TERFs are not at all less violent ideologically, and that's not even getting into the high levels of support transphobes in general have among politicians and the media.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:35 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
In THE HEIRESS (or WASHINGTON SQUARE) the heroine gets to reject the man who rejected her, so that's something! Bit of payback, bit more positive?
Right. And again, better than what happened to Isabel Archer.
posted by thivaia at 8:40 AM on May 27, 2022
Right. And again, better than what happened to Isabel Archer.
posted by thivaia at 8:40 AM on May 27, 2022
"pickmes" isn't a term exclusively used by femcels, either
I see it used fairly commonly online, applied to either (a) women who seem to be sacrificing their dignity/other women to appeal to men who don't give a damn or (b) what you might otherwise call notice-me-senpais.
posted by praemunire at 8:51 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
I see it used fairly commonly online, applied to either (a) women who seem to be sacrificing their dignity/other women to appeal to men who don't give a damn or (b) what you might otherwise call notice-me-senpais.
posted by praemunire at 8:51 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
I have probably qualified as a 'femcel' at various times. I'm bisexual, though, which means I've been ignored and spurned by folks of many genders. Also, as a woman who has spent her life mostly being fairly well outside the usual limits for being considered 'desirable', I have always found men's discourse about how 'women can just get laid ANY TIME they want not like men it's so UNFAIR' incredibly enraging because, no, I was living proof that you can absolutely be a woman and be unable to get laid even when in an environment where people are going off by twos-or-more and having sexytimes. (The reply was usually that clearly if I lowered my standards enough I would be able to find someone, and that would be absolutely fine, compared with the poor poor guy who would somehow be unable to take advantage of the many ad sections in the back of alternative weekly papers that were devoted to getting men laid as a business.) Wow. Just writing about this I am noticing how very much unprocessed resentful fury I have about those conversations.
That was all a long time ago, though, and while I was online, there were not these particular toxic communities. I certainly hope I wouldn't have fallen in with any of these folks - the self-reinforcing negative focus like that creates a feedback loop that goes nowhere good.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:08 AM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
That was all a long time ago, though, and while I was online, there were not these particular toxic communities. I certainly hope I wouldn't have fallen in with any of these folks - the self-reinforcing negative focus like that creates a feedback loop that goes nowhere good.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:08 AM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
femcels may not be as ideologically violent, but your original comment was:
where is this heat coming from?
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:11 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
These days femcels are known TERFs.which is why i was asking for clarification, as terfs (which you stated were the same as femcels) certainly do appear to be as violent, given much of their rhetoric--i would posit that a group that celebrates people who claim they prefer aids to trans-supportive groups or fantasize about lynching trans people is just as ideologically violent?
Try reading closely before attempting to call me out. That goes for your other attempt as well.????
where is this heat coming from?
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:11 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's hard for people who want to be coupled but aren't, both men and women. University is so much a part of middle-class couple-formation now, and it's only a few short years. And we spend all the time being ANGRY AT OUR PHONES instead of bowling or whatever, so harder to meet people. Sympathies to everyone.
This isn't new. Back in the late 80s, early 90s, my wife went to a midwest school program. After four years, it was kind of amusing, interesting, and maybe a little bit sad... how many marriages were made after the four years, not only based on university, or even common field of education, but actual physical proximity: the number of couples formed by being assigned adjacent study carrels.
And what about most people, those who don't go to university at all?
But who am I to point fingers? My wife and I were high school sweethearts.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:13 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
This isn't new. Back in the late 80s, early 90s, my wife went to a midwest school program. After four years, it was kind of amusing, interesting, and maybe a little bit sad... how many marriages were made after the four years, not only based on university, or even common field of education, but actual physical proximity: the number of couples formed by being assigned adjacent study carrels.
And what about most people, those who don't go to university at all?
But who am I to point fingers? My wife and I were high school sweethearts.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:13 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
That said, this is a pretty good Greatest Hits of Spinster Lit playlist. I'm DELIGHTED it mostly steered clear of the Gothic variety of spurned crone and thus did not contain any Faulknerian ladies (the titular Emily, of a Rose for is the one everyone thinks of but Joanna Burden is actually the worst one), or Miss Havishams
That's how you know it's a good list, because it leaves out the obvious ones. Another one along those lines would be pious iron maiden Concetta Salina in The Leopard, who loses her one shot at a relationship with the adored Tancredi by not being able to laugh about a rape joke. I found that pretty relatable, but the novel obviously doesn't exactly require me to. It's a marvelous novel, but wouldn't be a good entry for that particular list.
I guess, Victoire von Caryon in Fontane's Schach von Wuthenow doesn't technically qualify, because she does get to have an one-night stand with her crush at least. But when the guy, who was actually courting her mother, is pressured to marry her afterwards, he rather kills himself, because Victoire's pockmarked, and his military bros would make fun of him. Everyone thinks he's an idiot; in the end, only Victoire still speaks of him fondly. I know that makes her sound like a total doormat, but weirdly, she really isn't, at least to em. I can't quite explain, one has to read the book.
I do think the topic of female sexual frustration is seriously underexplored in literature and welcome all the book recommendations! I've already added a lot of stuff to my to-read list.
posted by sohalt at 9:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
That's how you know it's a good list, because it leaves out the obvious ones. Another one along those lines would be pious iron maiden Concetta Salina in The Leopard, who loses her one shot at a relationship with the adored Tancredi by not being able to laugh about a rape joke. I found that pretty relatable, but the novel obviously doesn't exactly require me to. It's a marvelous novel, but wouldn't be a good entry for that particular list.
I guess, Victoire von Caryon in Fontane's Schach von Wuthenow doesn't technically qualify, because she does get to have an one-night stand with her crush at least. But when the guy, who was actually courting her mother, is pressured to marry her afterwards, he rather kills himself, because Victoire's pockmarked, and his military bros would make fun of him. Everyone thinks he's an idiot; in the end, only Victoire still speaks of him fondly. I know that makes her sound like a total doormat, but weirdly, she really isn't, at least to em. I can't quite explain, one has to read the book.
I do think the topic of female sexual frustration is seriously underexplored in literature and welcome all the book recommendations! I've already added a lot of stuff to my to-read list.
posted by sohalt at 9:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
thivaia: I hear you. As much as I long to be etc., etc., I think: where would I put a husband? They take a lot of maintenance. I think I would just about be up to a long-term boyfriend who had already been married and didn't need looking after.
I started reading Quartet in Autumn recently and was too damn depressed by it. It wasn't even so much the singlehood of the characters so much as their age and their resolute incapacity for change. It made me worry: what if I turn out to be like that? I should try another of Pym's books. I know I read one once.
What femcels really read, in my experience, is m/m romance. You get all the adventure and enjoyment without the painful process of imagining a heterosexual relationship to feel inadequate about. (If this is a joke, it is at my own expense.)
I have always found men's discourse about how 'women can just get laid ANY TIME they want not like men it's so UNFAIR' incredibly enraging ...
It is. If there is any truth to it at all, it is that a woman can generally find a man to treat her like shit. Guys who talk about that kind of "getting laid" would definitely not want to hear that the option open to you is getting penetrated without lube by someone who will call you names afterwards.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:19 AM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
I started reading Quartet in Autumn recently and was too damn depressed by it. It wasn't even so much the singlehood of the characters so much as their age and their resolute incapacity for change. It made me worry: what if I turn out to be like that? I should try another of Pym's books. I know I read one once.
What femcels really read, in my experience, is m/m romance. You get all the adventure and enjoyment without the painful process of imagining a heterosexual relationship to feel inadequate about. (If this is a joke, it is at my own expense.)
I have always found men's discourse about how 'women can just get laid ANY TIME they want not like men it's so UNFAIR' incredibly enraging ...
It is. If there is any truth to it at all, it is that a woman can generally find a man to treat her like shit. Guys who talk about that kind of "getting laid" would definitely not want to hear that the option open to you is getting penetrated without lube by someone who will call you names afterwards.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:19 AM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
I would swap Excellent Women for Anita Brookner’s Look at Me.
posted by betweenthebars at 9:22 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by betweenthebars at 9:22 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Not to be confused with the femcel cannon, the technological successor to the spinster trebuchet.
posted by allegedly at 9:23 AM on May 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by allegedly at 9:23 AM on May 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
I'm here for any potential discussion of Sylvia Townsend Warner.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:23 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:23 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
in any case, w/r/t the "femcel" term--i'll admit that i do look askance at anyone using it, much as i do anyone using the term "frens" because of my previous experiences with the word.
"femcel" as a term to me reminds me heavily of subreddits like "Female Dating Strategy" or sites like Megalia/WOMAD--where there's very much a sense of hate, especially against trans and queer folk, on top of the regular, bog-standard hate of men or women who view things even a little differently.
if some women want to use it in a gently self-deprecating sexual frustrating sense, i mean, i can't police it, and i'm sure plenty of those using it ironically are fine people, but ironic awfulness can still sometimes read as awfulness, so...
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:23 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
"femcel" as a term to me reminds me heavily of subreddits like "Female Dating Strategy" or sites like Megalia/WOMAD--where there's very much a sense of hate, especially against trans and queer folk, on top of the regular, bog-standard hate of men or women who view things even a little differently.
if some women want to use it in a gently self-deprecating sexual frustrating sense, i mean, i can't police it, and i'm sure plenty of those using it ironically are fine people, but ironic awfulness can still sometimes read as awfulness, so...
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:23 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
much as i do anyone using the term "frens" because of my previous experiences with the word.
(I have only ever seen "frens" used in instagrams about dogs so now I'm...confused)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:27 AM on May 27, 2022 [16 favorites]
(I have only ever seen "frens" used in instagrams about dogs so now I'm...confused)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:27 AM on May 27, 2022 [16 favorites]
frens:
frenworld, a former neonazi subreddit
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:30 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
frenworld, a former neonazi subreddit
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:30 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
oh shit I did not know that. I appreciate the info
posted by Countess Elena at 9:32 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 9:32 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Any comparison between femcels and incels make my skin crawl. They are not even remotely the same. We aren’t in a vacuume and this isn’t a reasonable equivalency given both the history of male violence that we have always and are currently experiencing in the name of entitlement to sex.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:36 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:36 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Separatist hate is intentionally suborning every unhappy group they can, yeah? Every catchy word for sad is going to be besmirched.
her lover, Valentine Ackland, who had at various moments left Townsend Warner for both the Catholic Church and for other women.
Was this strictly a both-and or perhaps an either-or? I just read Excellent Women and kept wondering a similar thing.
posted by clew at 9:36 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
her lover, Valentine Ackland, who had at various moments left Townsend Warner for both the Catholic Church and for other women.
Was this strictly a both-and or perhaps an either-or? I just read Excellent Women and kept wondering a similar thing.
posted by clew at 9:36 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also femcels and TERFs are not similar. I don’t see the ideological crossover at all.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:38 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:38 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
like, i get that a lot of things online get divorced from original context, get remixed and recontextualized, and their meanings shift all the time. like pepe the frog, for example, which for some may have been "reclaimed". there's a whole lot of stuff around that, like the doc "feels good man", but even then... to this day if i see pepe my guard goes up.
"fren" and "femcel" are in that same category.
i'm glad some cis women are having fun with the whole soft femcel with sepia toned instas thing? but like, when the site mentioned in the first link in fight or flight's comment has multiple posts about how awful trans people are, including a gendercritical sub (303 members, general has 480)...
maybe there is no ideological crossover. but when a lot of the same terms are echoed between "femcels" and "terfs", when some of the rhetoric is repurposed...
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:41 AM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
"fren" and "femcel" are in that same category.
i'm glad some cis women are having fun with the whole soft femcel with sepia toned instas thing? but like, when the site mentioned in the first link in fight or flight's comment has multiple posts about how awful trans people are, including a gendercritical sub (303 members, general has 480)...
maybe there is no ideological crossover. but when a lot of the same terms are echoed between "femcels" and "terfs", when some of the rhetoric is repurposed...
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:41 AM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
in any case, w/r/t the "femcel" term--i'll admit that i do look askance at anyone using it
Yeah, that term is clearly poisoned, and the linked article suffers from using it as a lead-in. My guess is that the author wasn't aware how much the term has been defined by TERFS, because I wasn't either, although on retrospect, it's unsurprising. I'm all for reclaiming spinster, personally.
I'm here for any potential discussion of Sylvia Townsend Warner.
Lolly Willowes is still my gold standard for joyful embrace of spinsterhood, but I don't quite know how to feel about the author of the essay putting her in the well-adjusted camp. She makes a pact with the devil to get rid of her bothersome nephew! And all that just to be slandered as well-adjusted?
That said, I think it's fair to point out that not everyone can be a Lolly all of the time. There should also be some space for a bit of self-pity and wallowing. I'm sure one can do that without frothing at the mouth about Stacys and Chads.
posted by sohalt at 9:44 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yeah, that term is clearly poisoned, and the linked article suffers from using it as a lead-in. My guess is that the author wasn't aware how much the term has been defined by TERFS, because I wasn't either, although on retrospect, it's unsurprising. I'm all for reclaiming spinster, personally.
I'm here for any potential discussion of Sylvia Townsend Warner.
Lolly Willowes is still my gold standard for joyful embrace of spinsterhood, but I don't quite know how to feel about the author of the essay putting her in the well-adjusted camp. She makes a pact with the devil to get rid of her bothersome nephew! And all that just to be slandered as well-adjusted?
That said, I think it's fair to point out that not everyone can be a Lolly all of the time. There should also be some space for a bit of self-pity and wallowing. I'm sure one can do that without frothing at the mouth about Stacys and Chads.
posted by sohalt at 9:44 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think there’s a huge vested interest in dividing and conquering womens feminist groups so I’m suspicious of these new labels being thrown around subsets of radical feminists.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:46 AM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:46 AM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
There are moments of days when I'm frustrated or bitter that I've yet to uncover the co-captain for my metaphorical pirate ship who finds me as sexy, charming, and witty as I am. But I'm not the easiest sell, and I know it
I was bummed I hadn't found someone, but I also wasn't going to settle, and I also wasn't going to change who I was for the sake of "finding someone". I knew I wasn't to everyone's taste and didn't want to change that, but sometimes that specific fact just was a bummer, you know?
Yeah, this. Actually I WOULD settle at this point except the very, very few options I get I literally can't stomach. Like being 30 years older than me--I'm not at all cool with that level of age difference and I really do only attract super old guys.
I have always found men's discourse about how 'women can just get laid ANY TIME they want not like men it's so UNFAIR' incredibly enraging because, no, I was living proof that you can absolutely be a woman and be unable to get laid
Yeah, this is where the "-cel" thing comes in. Like I guess if I wanted to lay someone who could be my grandfather, I could get laid, but um....that's not really "any time I want because ladies are the town pump," now, is it?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:47 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was bummed I hadn't found someone, but I also wasn't going to settle, and I also wasn't going to change who I was for the sake of "finding someone". I knew I wasn't to everyone's taste and didn't want to change that, but sometimes that specific fact just was a bummer, you know?
Yeah, this. Actually I WOULD settle at this point except the very, very few options I get I literally can't stomach. Like being 30 years older than me--I'm not at all cool with that level of age difference and I really do only attract super old guys.
I have always found men's discourse about how 'women can just get laid ANY TIME they want not like men it's so UNFAIR' incredibly enraging because, no, I was living proof that you can absolutely be a woman and be unable to get laid
Yeah, this is where the "-cel" thing comes in. Like I guess if I wanted to lay someone who could be my grandfather, I could get laid, but um....that's not really "any time I want because ladies are the town pump," now, is it?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:47 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
where is this heat coming from?
Your initial response was quite passive aggressive, so don't be shocked when that kind of engagement isn't received well. You misinterpreted/twisted what I said in order to pick it apart - an irritating MeFite habit that accomplishes nothing. I didn't omit the "as" or add "chances are" by accident.
Incels are classified as terrorist threats for a reason. So yes, Femcel ideology is less violent imo. Less does not mean not at all. I agree that TERFs are dangerous. I think we're both in strong agreement that femcels and TERFs are a scourge on society.
posted by Stoof at 9:48 AM on May 27, 2022
Your initial response was quite passive aggressive, so don't be shocked when that kind of engagement isn't received well. You misinterpreted/twisted what I said in order to pick it apart - an irritating MeFite habit that accomplishes nothing. I didn't omit the "as" or add "chances are" by accident.
Incels are classified as terrorist threats for a reason. So yes, Femcel ideology is less violent imo. Less does not mean not at all. I agree that TERFs are dangerous. I think we're both in strong agreement that femcels and TERFs are a scourge on society.
posted by Stoof at 9:48 AM on May 27, 2022
Oh please femcels are a scourge on society?
Sorry while my eyes roll out onto the road and into traffic.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:50 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Sorry while my eyes roll out onto the road and into traffic.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:50 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Not me. You have someone else.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:53 AM on May 27, 2022
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:53 AM on May 27, 2022
That said, I think it's fair to point out that not everyone can be a Lolly all of the time. There should also be some space for a bit of self-pity and wallowing.
That's when you switch over to some Barbara Comyns maybe?
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:58 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
That's when you switch over to some Barbara Comyns maybe?
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:58 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am the person that posted the Andrea Dworkin quote: “feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don’t like, including all the women you don’t want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don’t want anything to do with anymore. It doesn’t matter who the individual women are. The all have the same vulnerability to rape, to battery, as children to incest.”
That includes fighting male supremacy on behalf of terfs and femcels too.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:58 AM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
That includes fighting male supremacy on behalf of terfs and femcels too.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:58 AM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Also femcels and TERFs are not similar. I don’t see the ideological crossover at all.
Visit the links in my previous comments. There's lots of evidence online of them being the same people. The Trufemcels sub got banned from Reddit for hate speech, which included transphobia and homophobia.
I don't want to go into it too much, but I believe the ideological crossover comes through the pipeline of "all men are evil", which can be easily slotted into TERF thinking through the call to arms over "men invading women's spaces". Personally speaking, I've witnessed and spoken to multiple self-identified femcels who used highly offensive and inflammatory TERF talking points and even the same kinds of language to describe what they saw as an "attack on women".
posted by fight or flight at 10:06 AM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
Visit the links in my previous comments. There's lots of evidence online of them being the same people. The Trufemcels sub got banned from Reddit for hate speech, which included transphobia and homophobia.
I don't want to go into it too much, but I believe the ideological crossover comes through the pipeline of "all men are evil", which can be easily slotted into TERF thinking through the call to arms over "men invading women's spaces". Personally speaking, I've witnessed and spoken to multiple self-identified femcels who used highly offensive and inflammatory TERF talking points and even the same kinds of language to describe what they saw as an "attack on women".
posted by fight or flight at 10:06 AM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
She makes a pact with the devil to get rid of her bothersome nephew!
Really, though, who hasn't?
(Damn, I love Lolly Willowes so much)
posted by thivaia at 10:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Really, though, who hasn't?
(Damn, I love Lolly Willowes so much)
posted by thivaia at 10:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Hating the oppression of men and wanting safe spaces isn’t a crime or unjustified and I don’t consider myself a terf or femcel. Just a feminist who knows th at if you’re not hating the oppression of men or fighting for safe spaces for all women, you’re not much of a feminist
posted by Dressed to Kill at 10:40 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 10:40 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Hating the oppression of men and wanting safe spaces isn’t a crime or unjustified and I don’t consider myself a terf or femcel.
Good for you, I suppose? As long as you do those things without being hateful towards trans women and other trans people and marginalised people, then that's great. A lot of femcels haven't gotten that memo, that's all.
posted by fight or flight at 10:52 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Good for you, I suppose? As long as you do those things without being hateful towards trans women and other trans people and marginalised people, then that's great. A lot of femcels haven't gotten that memo, that's all.
posted by fight or flight at 10:52 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Do you speak for them?
posted by Dressed to Kill at 10:55 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 10:55 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
And I consider trans men men if there’s any question
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:06 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:06 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I feel like despite the article seemingly being mostly tongue-in-cheek, the lack of acknowledgement of the different power dynamics between women who are not in romantic relationships but want to be versus men in the same position is a major failing. That is, regardless of the whole thing of the extent of overlap between Reddit self-identified femcels are TERFs (I hadn’t heard the term femcel before this thread, but I don’t feel like I need to click the link and read a bunch of TERFy vitriol to verify the assertion for myself), even were it a term that the author of the linked piece had just made up, it’s a fundamentally problematic term in how it linguistically equates cis male incels with women (and yeah, the implied cis part was also evident in the linked article) as if that power differential didn’t exist.
In an unrelated critique: framing aside, the list has a major omission in failing to mention Dorothy Parker.
posted by eviemath at 11:06 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
In an unrelated critique: framing aside, the list has a major omission in failing to mention Dorothy Parker.
posted by eviemath at 11:06 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Dressed to Kill -- believe me when I say that I'm in no way interested in "policing" you, or even hearing much more about your views, which I'm sure are perfectly valid. This post isn't actually about you, since you claim to be a trans ally and neither a TERF or a femcel, so I'm a little confused about why you seem to be taking so much of it as a personal attack or attempt at "policing". We're discussing femcels largely in the abstract here, not making specific criticisms. If you find it difficult to disengage from the topic, respectfully maybe this isn't a good thread for you to be in right now? (Note: just a suggestion, not a request.)
posted by fight or flight at 11:11 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 11:11 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Oh no I think this is an interesting discussion. I really do think this mitosis happening with radical feminism is coming from the outside in venues like this. I believe this language (terf, femcel etc) is harmful and sets us back as feminists.
So I have a stake in understanding and contextualizing this convo from the position of a RadFem who has been RadFemmy since forever. I think others should be critical of this language too. Just my opinion.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
So I have a stake in understanding and contextualizing this convo from the position of a RadFem who has been RadFemmy since forever. I think others should be critical of this language too. Just my opinion.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
I believe this language (terf, femcel etc) is harmful and sets us back as feminists.
The thing is, if you find (for instance) Dworkin's views valuable in that she says feminism involves fighting with and for women you disagree with (including trans women), then including radical feminists who seek to exclude certain types of women (sex workers, trans women, the "Beckys" and "Stacies") from the movement doesn't make sense, since including them means excluding those other women. This is the case unless you're willing to challenge those radical feminists directly and denounce their exclusionary views, which is what (I believe) many of us are doing by distancing ourselves from these types of feminists and shining a light on the hateful and misogynist parts of their ideology.
I don't have a problem including TERFs in the scope of people I fight for as a feminist, but those same TERFs would have a big problem including me. Some of the femcels described above would have a problem with including women who are body positive, and so on. You can't tolerate intolerance while building a more tolerant society.
My question to you is: if you find this language harmful, what language would you prefer? How should we confront these women who are committing hate and spreading misogyny in the name of feminism?
posted by fight or flight at 11:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
The thing is, if you find (for instance) Dworkin's views valuable in that she says feminism involves fighting with and for women you disagree with (including trans women), then including radical feminists who seek to exclude certain types of women (sex workers, trans women, the "Beckys" and "Stacies") from the movement doesn't make sense, since including them means excluding those other women. This is the case unless you're willing to challenge those radical feminists directly and denounce their exclusionary views, which is what (I believe) many of us are doing by distancing ourselves from these types of feminists and shining a light on the hateful and misogynist parts of their ideology.
I don't have a problem including TERFs in the scope of people I fight for as a feminist, but those same TERFs would have a big problem including me. Some of the femcels described above would have a problem with including women who are body positive, and so on. You can't tolerate intolerance while building a more tolerant society.
My question to you is: if you find this language harmful, what language would you prefer? How should we confront these women who are committing hate and spreading misogyny in the name of feminism?
posted by fight or flight at 11:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
This reading list made me think about my own in-progress novels. Some years back I decided I wanted to write an anti-romance novel about a woman who never gets married as an antidote to all those ubiquitous romance novels out there, many of which I have found frustratingly problematic, not to mention boring. My idea is that it would be a trilogy of novels, beginning in 1900 when my heroine is 20 years old, and ending in 1950 with her death at the age of 70.
I've also got a novel on the go about a woman who wakes up on her 40th birthday, decides that her life sucks and that she needs to change it, and does so. She leaves her husband and spends much of the subsequent year living alone for the first time in her life while she begins to build a life for herself, and while she she has two romantic relationships with men and is in one when the novel ends on the day of her 41st birthday, it's not primarily a courtship story, but rather one about the complex and difficult process of personal and political change, and about a woman taking charge of her own life and becoming centred in it.
There is a dearth of novels about women living their lives alone -- and the ones that exist tend to be so depressing -- that I feel like my focus in writing should be to write that kind of novel. After all, one is supposed to write what one knows, and I certainly know about being alone, and I've felt the lack of fictional kin enough myself that I'd like to give the gift of that kind of novel to others in the same boat -- or who just wants a novel about a woman not following the usual "courtship marriage babies" route.
posted by orange swan at 11:41 AM on May 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
I've also got a novel on the go about a woman who wakes up on her 40th birthday, decides that her life sucks and that she needs to change it, and does so. She leaves her husband and spends much of the subsequent year living alone for the first time in her life while she begins to build a life for herself, and while she she has two romantic relationships with men and is in one when the novel ends on the day of her 41st birthday, it's not primarily a courtship story, but rather one about the complex and difficult process of personal and political change, and about a woman taking charge of her own life and becoming centred in it.
There is a dearth of novels about women living their lives alone -- and the ones that exist tend to be so depressing -- that I feel like my focus in writing should be to write that kind of novel. After all, one is supposed to write what one knows, and I certainly know about being alone, and I've felt the lack of fictional kin enough myself that I'd like to give the gift of that kind of novel to others in the same boat -- or who just wants a novel about a woman not following the usual "courtship marriage babies" route.
posted by orange swan at 11:41 AM on May 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
I'd enjoy both of those books, orange swan.
posted by humbug at 11:54 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by humbug at 11:54 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Dressed to Kill, are you now one of those "TERF is a slur" people? Do you not think that there are trans-exclusionary radical feminists?
posted by sagc at 12:03 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:03 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Well, shit, now I have to change my bio line "reclaiming the word spinster"? This is all so gross.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 12:07 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by kitten kaboodle at 12:07 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Another great celebration of female solitude is Marlen Haushofer's The Wall. It's a mix of dystopia and utopia, set in the aftermath of some sort of apocalypse, apparently only survived by a fourty year old woman, vacationing in the Austrian mountains. The tone is deeply unsentimental, except when it comes her relationship with her animals, very misanthropic, very pessimistic about her longterm prospects of survival. And somehow not at all bleak. I'm not at all a back-to-nature-type of gall, and I found the protagonist's general misanthropy super alienating, and the whole thing very disturbing, but also downright sublime.
posted by sohalt at 12:12 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sohalt at 12:12 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
You don't need the word TERF unless you want to talk about TERFs. Which pretty much only trans women and their advocates have a need to do. Those who are not affected by the exclusion of trans women, or are just fine with it, have no use for the word and could very well label its use "divisive". Maybe even hint that those (trans women) using it are themselves agents of the Patriarchy.
posted by tigrrrlily at 12:12 PM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 12:12 PM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'd enjoy both of those books, orange swan.
Co-signed!
posted by sohalt at 12:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Co-signed!
posted by sohalt at 12:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
What. "TERF" doesn't somehow exclude someone from being a woman. Have you read through why fight or flight thinks that it's important to be able to call out people who are trans-exclusionary in feminism? They seem to do a pretty good job of explaining why the presence of TERFs "hurts feminism broadly".
Also, to conflate "TERF" with "uncomfortable around un-transitioned transgendered people" is a fucked up sentence in at least two ways. That's both a minimization of what TERFs do, and a weird way to refer to trans people.
posted by sagc at 12:18 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Also, to conflate "TERF" with "uncomfortable around un-transitioned transgendered people" is a fucked up sentence in at least two ways. That's both a minimization of what TERFs do, and a weird way to refer to trans people.
posted by sagc at 12:18 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
I believe this language (terf, femcel etc) is harmful and sets us back as feminists.
Femcel seems to be a self-applied descriptor, as opposed to TERF which is externally-applied. The two do not appear to be equivalent.
Inasmuch as TERFs aren’t feminist, I suppose I could agree on some sense that the term sets feminism back….
un-transitioned transgendered people
Hoo boy. Wow. Okay, so let’s start with following the link in Metafilter info pages to Trans 101.
posted by eviemath at 12:18 PM on May 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
Femcel seems to be a self-applied descriptor, as opposed to TERF which is externally-applied. The two do not appear to be equivalent.
Inasmuch as TERFs aren’t feminist, I suppose I could agree on some sense that the term sets feminism back….
un-transitioned transgendered people
Hoo boy. Wow. Okay, so let’s start with following the link in Metafilter info pages to Trans 101.
posted by eviemath at 12:18 PM on May 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
Dressed to Kill: Would you not refer to a woman as... conservative? Religious? Those are all things they may or may not agree with while being accurate descriptions of behaviour.
posted by sagc at 12:19 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:19 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sure, refer me. But this is how so called TERFY women describe their issue with trans women. I don’t speak for them, I am speaking about them. I defend them as a class of women despite what they believe.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:20 PM on May 27, 2022
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:20 PM on May 27, 2022
Defending them against what, exactly?
posted by sagc at 12:20 PM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:20 PM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
Defend what aspects? Their right to be trans-exclusionary and guide the movement in that way, or their rights to the same respect as trans women?
Your behaviour in this thread reads like the former.
posted by sagc at 12:22 PM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Your behaviour in this thread reads like the former.
posted by sagc at 12:22 PM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Serious question: Do you think that making feminism more trans-exclusionary is bad? Or do you think that trans women don't fight against the patriarchy? I'm just trying to connect the dots as to why it's a problem to try and make TERFs less influential in feminist thought.
posted by sagc at 12:23 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:23 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not to be confused with the femcel cannon, the technological successor to the spinster trebuchet.
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to yournewsletter Substack
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
So called TERFS will never guide feminism. It’s a red herring. So are “femcel” writings. It’s a distraction from, as I said, the real enemy.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
It reads like you're more bothered that someone would call someone a TERF than by the TERFs themselves. Hell, even your "remember who the real killers are" aside is shitty. Guess what: People being upset at JK Rowling, an extremely rich TERF, are not being anti-feminist!
posted by sagc at 12:26 PM on May 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:26 PM on May 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
Just as a baseline, maybe work on removing "transgendered" from how you describe people? Maybe stop telling people to stop describing TERFs as TERFs? Just a few examples of how one might see some clues in your behaviour...
posted by sagc at 12:28 PM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:28 PM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
I don’t think it’s a slur but I also don’t think it’s a useful label. I think the label hurts feminism broadly. It deflects from the real problem.
Now, obviously, I would have very much preferred this to be a thread about literature, but for the record: There is more than one real problem in this world. The fact that terfs are falling over themselves to play useful idiots for Nazis making trans women the scape-goat du jour in their bloody culture war is a very real problem to me. The Nazis also sometimes don't want to be labelled as Nazis, and I give just as much of a shit about that.
posted by sohalt at 12:28 PM on May 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
Now, obviously, I would have very much preferred this to be a thread about literature, but for the record: There is more than one real problem in this world. The fact that terfs are falling over themselves to play useful idiots for Nazis making trans women the scape-goat du jour in their bloody culture war is a very real problem to me. The Nazis also sometimes don't want to be labelled as Nazis, and I give just as much of a shit about that.
posted by sohalt at 12:28 PM on May 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
It seems like you're saying that feminism has to be such a broad tent that no behaviour by a woman can be criticized? Again, they do have power, and they do harm; if you disagree that TERFs can cause harm, I'm unsure where the conversation can go.
posted by sagc at 12:32 PM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:32 PM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
"shutting down gender criticism or gender inquiry" Know who likes gender inquiry? Trans people! Know who like to critique other's genders? TERFs?
Again, you seem to be entirely blind to the concerns of trans women to a massive degree.
posted by sagc at 12:35 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Again, you seem to be entirely blind to the concerns of trans women to a massive degree.
posted by sagc at 12:35 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
I am coming at this from a radfem angle, yes. All women are welcome to disagree or agree. ALL women. Inclusive.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:36 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:36 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Some women think that TERFs a) are an accurate description of some radical feminists and b) that it's a useful term to identify the tendency and try to combat it.
And yet you seem to have pushed back strongly on statements of that!
posted by sagc at 12:38 PM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
And yet you seem to have pushed back strongly on statements of that!
posted by sagc at 12:38 PM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
And as soon as I see so called TERFS pulling nazi numbers with nazi violence I’ll entertain your comparison.
You don't have to get your own hands dirty to make yourself complicit.
I think about all the different flavours of anti-semitism before the Nazis took over. Christian antisemitism, liberal antisemtisim, nationalistic antisemitism, opportunistic antisemtism - not everyone was super fanatic about it, some just used it to exploit easily exploitable public sentiment, some just followed the fashion of the time. Some were later quite shocked how far the Nazis took it. They certainly didn't imagine that. Some still insist we need to make these distinctions when assessing historical figures. You won't be surprised that I don't.
posted by sohalt at 12:50 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
You don't have to get your own hands dirty to make yourself complicit.
I think about all the different flavours of anti-semitism before the Nazis took over. Christian antisemitism, liberal antisemtisim, nationalistic antisemitism, opportunistic antisemtism - not everyone was super fanatic about it, some just used it to exploit easily exploitable public sentiment, some just followed the fashion of the time. Some were later quite shocked how far the Nazis took it. They certainly didn't imagine that. Some still insist we need to make these distinctions when assessing historical figures. You won't be surprised that I don't.
posted by sohalt at 12:50 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
....I'm confused, wasn't a post this about literature?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:00 PM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:00 PM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
Sohalt that comparison is so insulting to women. And feminists.
Empresscallipygos - we are referring to the relative usefulness of the term femcel and also what it means to have a femcel culture as yet another dubious shorthand term for a kind of radical feminist.
Sagc - yeah, that’s like, my goal. As a feminist that wants women to stick together.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 1:10 PM on May 27, 2022
Empresscallipygos - we are referring to the relative usefulness of the term femcel and also what it means to have a femcel culture as yet another dubious shorthand term for a kind of radical feminist.
Sagc - yeah, that’s like, my goal. As a feminist that wants women to stick together.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 1:10 PM on May 27, 2022
Mod note: Several comments deleted. Dressed to Kill, I'm going to ask you to stop commenting in this thread. Defending trans exclusionary discourse is not okay.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:11 PM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 1:11 PM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
This is by far one of the most annoying derails I’ve ever seen on this site.
posted by cakelite at 1:12 PM on May 27, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 1:12 PM on May 27, 2022 [20 favorites]
👋
posted by Ferreous at 1:14 PM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 1:14 PM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
Separatist hate is intentionally suborning every unhappy group they can, yeah? Every catchy word for sad is going to be besmirched.
That's a way better summary for it than anything I've been able to craft.
I still remember the young days of the internet, before power had been consolidated by a few big players who figured out how to weaponize loneliness. I looked at the burgeoning communities of people whose niche interests had previously isolated them (c.f. early "nerd culture" before that was also weaponized), and I thought to myself, "what a pleasant future it will be, when people no longer have to fear geographical isolation from their peers!"
Not even at my most cynical did I predict that anyone would perfect a playbook for turning communities centered around shared identities as innocuous as "it's hard to find a good partner" into misogynist cesspits.
posted by Mayor West at 1:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
That's a way better summary for it than anything I've been able to craft.
I still remember the young days of the internet, before power had been consolidated by a few big players who figured out how to weaponize loneliness. I looked at the burgeoning communities of people whose niche interests had previously isolated them (c.f. early "nerd culture" before that was also weaponized), and I thought to myself, "what a pleasant future it will be, when people no longer have to fear geographical isolation from their peers!"
Not even at my most cynical did I predict that anyone would perfect a playbook for turning communities centered around shared identities as innocuous as "it's hard to find a good partner" into misogynist cesspits.
posted by Mayor West at 1:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
TERF exclusionary radical metafilter = ❤️
posted by sagc at 1:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [30 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [30 favorites]
Oh noes, a TERF buttoned 🙄
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
TERF exclusionary radical metafilter = ❤️
Well, yeah, that's one TERM for it.
posted by Mayor West at 1:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Well, yeah, that's one TERM for it.
posted by Mayor West at 1:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Weird turns out people offended by using the term terf might just be terfs
posted by Ferreous at 1:19 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 1:19 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
so like i was saying in my previous comment, "radfem", like "femcel", "fren", and pepe the frog generally twigs the antenna and puts me on alert.
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:19 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:19 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
To rerail a little bit, I found this article that has some interesting thoughts on "spinsterhood" and some fairly recent literature recommendations: How a new wave of literature is reclaiming spinsterhood.
posted by fight or flight at 1:20 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 1:20 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Not even at my most cynical did I predict that anyone would perfect a playbook for turning communities centered around shared identities as innocuous as "it's hard to find a good partner" into misogynist cesspits.
I think any group that's based on lamenting personal setbacks or failures is especially prone to turn really hateful in a fairly rapid way. Negative feedback loops are really easy to establish and reinforce.
posted by Ferreous at 1:27 PM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think any group that's based on lamenting personal setbacks or failures is especially prone to turn really hateful in a fairly rapid way. Negative feedback loops are really easy to establish and reinforce.
posted by Ferreous at 1:27 PM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Not even at my most cynical did I predict that anyone would perfect a playbook for turning communities centered around shared identities as innocuous as "it's hard to find a good partner" into misogynist cesspits.
I had some suspicions, but hardly thought it was going to be so goddamned widespread. One of the total bummers of the transition to the modern Internet.
"Femcel" just struck me as a dumb term, but if it's a TERF stalking horse, then away with it.
posted by praemunire at 1:31 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I had some suspicions, but hardly thought it was going to be so goddamned widespread. One of the total bummers of the transition to the modern Internet.
"Femcel" just struck me as a dumb term, but if it's a TERF stalking horse, then away with it.
posted by praemunire at 1:31 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
To rerail a little bit, I found this article that has some interesting thoughts on "spinsterhood" and some fairly recent literature recommendations: How a new wave of literature is reclaiming spinsterhood.
Thanks for the link and the rerailing!
From the article:
And if events conspire to bring us a different life – one with no engagement ring, no wedding feast, no christening or naming ceremony, no divorce papers – a person can become invisible.
It's funny, nowadays I don't really imagine myself in a relationship any more (if I ever really did at all), but I do sometimes catch myself fantasizing about being divorced. I think I would make a good ex (without kids and co-parenting duties). Not trying to save the friendship right away, realizing that everyone needs a bit of space to lick wounds and get used to the new relationship dynamic, but being open to keeping in touch in some fashion - maybe once he's found a new partner, one who couldn't possibly be jealous of me. Treasuring the fonder memories, while revelling in new-found freedom. Wishing each other well, genuinely. Someone he still likes to talk to, on occasion. Someone he might ask for advice. I would pretty much live as I live now, but I would have a bit more romance and drama and passion in my past. And that would be preferable, somehow, because, I guess, it would give me more legitimacy in a way? Evidence that I did have my chances, and I did seize them, did take a risk, did put in the work, tried to make the best of it. As if that were some sort of duty, that I'm shirking now. It's very weird.
posted by sohalt at 1:49 PM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Thanks for the link and the rerailing!
From the article:
And if events conspire to bring us a different life – one with no engagement ring, no wedding feast, no christening or naming ceremony, no divorce papers – a person can become invisible.
It's funny, nowadays I don't really imagine myself in a relationship any more (if I ever really did at all), but I do sometimes catch myself fantasizing about being divorced. I think I would make a good ex (without kids and co-parenting duties). Not trying to save the friendship right away, realizing that everyone needs a bit of space to lick wounds and get used to the new relationship dynamic, but being open to keeping in touch in some fashion - maybe once he's found a new partner, one who couldn't possibly be jealous of me. Treasuring the fonder memories, while revelling in new-found freedom. Wishing each other well, genuinely. Someone he still likes to talk to, on occasion. Someone he might ask for advice. I would pretty much live as I live now, but I would have a bit more romance and drama and passion in my past. And that would be preferable, somehow, because, I guess, it would give me more legitimacy in a way? Evidence that I did have my chances, and I did seize them, did take a risk, did put in the work, tried to make the best of it. As if that were some sort of duty, that I'm shirking now. It's very weird.
posted by sohalt at 1:49 PM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
This is also causing me to think about the terms historically used for men and women that are long term single. (Excluding the incel/femcel terminology...don't want to go back down that rabbit hole.)
For men, of course the first term that comes to mind is bachelor. And notice how that really doesn't have such a bad connotation? Sure, maybe they're a little immature, but they're also sowing their oats, having fun, living it up.
For women, I think of spinster. Then there's maid/old maid. Crazy cat lady.
Also, I feel like there's also an implication that like, a bachelor is choosing to be single, but if he wants to settle down eventually, he will and he can.
But spinster, old maid, etc - it's like, this is a permanent state of affairs. She will be like this forever. She's defective in some way.
I'm writing this as someone who is long term single, never been in a relationship, probably never will be - not by choice so much as circumstance. So I'm not actually trying to imply judgment! Just realizing how insidious it is the way even the words we use to describe these things are so loaded, and seem to imply that any woman who remains single is defective or a failure or inherently flawed.
Just in general, I'd love to read more books about flawed, messy, imperfect women who maybe find a way to become happier/healthier but whose reward for that isn't marriage/babies but like, a fulfilling career and a circle of close, supportive friends. That's the kind of happy ending I could get behind.
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
For men, of course the first term that comes to mind is bachelor. And notice how that really doesn't have such a bad connotation? Sure, maybe they're a little immature, but they're also sowing their oats, having fun, living it up.
For women, I think of spinster. Then there's maid/old maid. Crazy cat lady.
Also, I feel like there's also an implication that like, a bachelor is choosing to be single, but if he wants to settle down eventually, he will and he can.
But spinster, old maid, etc - it's like, this is a permanent state of affairs. She will be like this forever. She's defective in some way.
I'm writing this as someone who is long term single, never been in a relationship, probably never will be - not by choice so much as circumstance. So I'm not actually trying to imply judgment! Just realizing how insidious it is the way even the words we use to describe these things are so loaded, and seem to imply that any woman who remains single is defective or a failure or inherently flawed.
Just in general, I'd love to read more books about flawed, messy, imperfect women who maybe find a way to become happier/healthier but whose reward for that isn't marriage/babies but like, a fulfilling career and a circle of close, supportive friends. That's the kind of happy ending I could get behind.
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
A woman who experiences rejection and romantic failure. Who gets to have desires, even if those are frustrated. But who's not defined by the frustration. It doesn't always have to be aspirational. But it shouldn't be a cautionary tale either. Just an honest mediation on female experience, not at all uncommon female experience, in all its messy glory. We don't get a lot of that, and we should get more of that.
posted by sohalt at 2:31 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by sohalt at 2:31 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is also causing me to think about the terms historically used for men and women that are long term single
Oh yes. Bachelor is jazzy and kind of fun. The femme versions are all just weak sauce. And I say this as a someone who has referred to herself repeatedly as "badass spinster" for lack of a better term.
This kind of reminds me of how many long years I spent trying to find the femme equivalent of "rakishly handsome" because that was exactly what I aspired to be. Then I just realized that I just wanted to BE the femme equivalent of "rakishly handsome" (or maybe with the right haircut and the right velvet suit, just actual rakishly handsome on occasion) and just embody my own language or whatever.
(Apologies if this sounds woo-woo or whatever. It's been a long week, and it's possible I've over-poured on this holiday-weekend-starting gimlet)
posted by thivaia at 2:34 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Oh yes. Bachelor is jazzy and kind of fun. The femme versions are all just weak sauce. And I say this as a someone who has referred to herself repeatedly as "badass spinster" for lack of a better term.
This kind of reminds me of how many long years I spent trying to find the femme equivalent of "rakishly handsome" because that was exactly what I aspired to be. Then I just realized that I just wanted to BE the femme equivalent of "rakishly handsome" (or maybe with the right haircut and the right velvet suit, just actual rakishly handsome on occasion) and just embody my own language or whatever.
(Apologies if this sounds woo-woo or whatever. It's been a long week, and it's possible I've over-poured on this holiday-weekend-starting gimlet)
posted by thivaia at 2:34 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
I call myself "permanently single." It's not what I want to be, but it is the truth.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:16 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:16 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
God this thread is disappointing.
posted by Pemberly at 10:36 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Pemberly at 10:36 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
From my experience dealing with TERFs and people I worry are a little too sympathetic to inceldom, and maybe it's where people are seeing the connection between femcel and TERFiness, there is a certain pattern I've noticed where the more toxic philosophies find a foothold with people when they find themselves hurt by patriarchal structures, and so the part of them that wants to protect them from that hurt kind of gets hypervigilant. Except to predict what threats the patriarchy is going to pose to them, that part of them needs to think in the patriarchy's terms, so their view of the world ends up dominated by that and they end up unable to escape a starkly patriarchal wordlview, despite it being what's hurting them..
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:59 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:59 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
While I agree that there are few stories about single women, and very little public acknowledgement of the pain of being lifelong single, like some others here what I'd like to see more of is stories about "single forever" women doing stuff/being great. Non-conformist and anti-anti-Semitic Auntie Mame is one that comes to mind. “Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death.” OK she acquires another husband but he doesn't last long and he doesn't matter much. Or Gina Rowlands as Gloria. "Me, I'm not a mother. I'm one of those sensations. I was always a broad. Can't stand the sight of milk." Being single and childfree is precious to her. She spends the whole movie fighting to stay that way. And the audience isn't led down the usual path of feeling pity for the hard-bitten single woman, or disbelieving her bleak assessment of her own situation. It's clear she's only alive, and only able to keep the kid alive, because she has the exact measure of how little her own life is worth to other people.
It's not lost on me that both these stories are about how these women acquire and adapt to children.
posted by happyfrog at 12:20 AM on May 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
It's not lost on me that both these stories are about how these women acquire and adapt to children.
posted by happyfrog at 12:20 AM on May 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
Just ran across this reference, seems like it might be fruitful: Women Teachers and Feminist Politics, 1900-39; given as source for "between 1921 and 1923 […] education committees […] decided to dispense with the employment of married women as 'the most obvious and natural way' of mitigating teacher unemployment and the effects of education cuts." There’s someone they’re arguing about whether she was single pretending to be married or vv? Letter-pages thread, LRB, 23 Sep 2021.
To figure out: what the teachers were reading.
posted by clew at 10:33 AM on May 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
To figure out: what the teachers were reading.
posted by clew at 10:33 AM on May 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
Possibly Stella Benson, e.g. Living Alone, which is a winding pit of gloom for anyone marked by solitude. Not just spinsters, but of course spinsters.
posted by clew at 7:02 PM on May 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 7:02 PM on May 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not touching most of the above discussion with a bargepole, but I just want to say that I'm quite happy with describing myself as a spinster, which has to me a pleasing suggestion of being self-supporting, since the word originally meant "female person who spins yarn".
But then I would say that, having been given three seperate copies of Lolly Willowes by three different friends, all of whom said something on the lines of "this really made me think of you". If I may be allowed an interesting derail, Sylvia Townsend Warner is greatly under-appreciated. I can recommend her short stories, if you can get hold of a collection, especially the fairy ones, and also (if you want more spinsters) The Corner That Held Them, about a medieval nunnery in the middle of nowhere, where nothing much happens.
posted by Fuchsoid at 12:25 AM on May 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
But then I would say that, having been given three seperate copies of Lolly Willowes by three different friends, all of whom said something on the lines of "this really made me think of you". If I may be allowed an interesting derail, Sylvia Townsend Warner is greatly under-appreciated. I can recommend her short stories, if you can get hold of a collection, especially the fairy ones, and also (if you want more spinsters) The Corner That Held Them, about a medieval nunnery in the middle of nowhere, where nothing much happens.
posted by Fuchsoid at 12:25 AM on May 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
This association in this thread between femcel and TERF really surprises me. The femcel communities I've seen online are vehemently anti-TERF to the point its one of the main things I'd say differentiates them from radfem communities along with the amount of shitposting.
posted by zymil at 2:32 AM on May 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by zymil at 2:32 AM on May 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
This association in this thread between femcel and TERF really surprises me. The femcel communities I've seen online are vehemently anti-TERF to the point its one of the main things I'd say differentiates them from radfem communities along with the amount of shitposting.
like i mentioned earlier, terms can still carry baggage that hits for different people: for instance, "frens", pepe, and wojack have stopped being primarily driven by right-wing chuds, but that doesn't mean that for a lot of us the association has suddenly changed. or, for instance, the use of the checkered flag in twitter usernames: for a while, it was linked very closely with anti-trans assholes who trollingly said that it was the flag for being "gender-free"... but it was also linked very closely with Black self-empowerment and economic advancement and derived from the late Nipsey Hussle's clothing store Marathon.
Or, for instance, "Queer". It's not as used by older LGBTQ folk because to them it brings up awful memories, whereas the younger generations tend to see it as reclaimed and more inclusive.
some femcel communities might really just be into cottagecore and shit and be supportive of trans folk. but the first encounter i had with people using the term, and given the fact that some still using the term are vehemently anti-trans? yeah, I'm still gonna give people using the term a little bit of sideeye and pay a little more attention for hostile patterns.
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:16 AM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
like i mentioned earlier, terms can still carry baggage that hits for different people: for instance, "frens", pepe, and wojack have stopped being primarily driven by right-wing chuds, but that doesn't mean that for a lot of us the association has suddenly changed. or, for instance, the use of the checkered flag in twitter usernames: for a while, it was linked very closely with anti-trans assholes who trollingly said that it was the flag for being "gender-free"... but it was also linked very closely with Black self-empowerment and economic advancement and derived from the late Nipsey Hussle's clothing store Marathon.
Or, for instance, "Queer". It's not as used by older LGBTQ folk because to them it brings up awful memories, whereas the younger generations tend to see it as reclaimed and more inclusive.
some femcel communities might really just be into cottagecore and shit and be supportive of trans folk. but the first encounter i had with people using the term, and given the fact that some still using the term are vehemently anti-trans? yeah, I'm still gonna give people using the term a little bit of sideeye and pay a little more attention for hostile patterns.
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:16 AM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
i used to be someone else, I totally get where you're coming from. It's so weird to have all these associations between word use and hostile intent accumulated over the years, still have them occasionally confirmed, and then have to explain to incredulous folk who would never, and whose communities would never, oops well there were those one or two times, but it's really not representative, and we really shouldn't assume the worst...
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:45 AM on May 31, 2022
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:45 AM on May 31, 2022
The femcel phenotype: "Not every man who doesn’t have sex becomes an incel, and not every woman with glasses and long hair fits the phenotype"
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:24 PM on June 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:24 PM on June 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
But the contrary impulse of mockery risks not taking these empathically damaged people seriously enough; we made lots of easy jokes about what a blithering idiot Trump was, and look how that turned out.
Self-reinforcing pathological communities are legitimately scary.
*incel/femcel corrected to uncle/fennel, which is a subculture I’d be interested in, full of jocular anise enthusiasts.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:47 AM on May 27, 2022 [32 favorites]