Lessons From the Golden Age of the Mall Walkers
June 4, 2022 10:57 AM Subscribe
There’s also plenty of malls infamous for harassing out people of color and nothing guaranteeing an accepting one where needed.
I want to know how the money works. Can malls afford so much provision of free amenity because they aren’t paying into city taxes? Can malls actually afford it at all, given their famous collapses over the last two decades? Is it another case of cheap construction and zero maintenance? Do any cities with continental climates manage public promenades, and if so, how funded?
posted by clew at 12:41 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
I want to know how the money works. Can malls afford so much provision of free amenity because they aren’t paying into city taxes? Can malls actually afford it at all, given their famous collapses over the last two decades? Is it another case of cheap construction and zero maintenance? Do any cities with continental climates manage public promenades, and if so, how funded?
posted by clew at 12:41 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
I have a lot of thoughts but none of them are particularly well-formed (mostly I think due to lack of knowledge), so I'll keep it brief; if it turns out I've said something stupid, at least I haven't wasted a lot of people's time!
There are many different kinds of malls and some models seem more sustainable than others. I've been to malls in areas with lower economic activity that used to rely on big anchor tenants like national chains that moved out, to be replaced with local stores who are still supported by the local community and have a noticeable community-center feel. I've been to upscale malls with ridiculously enormous parking lots that also get a lot of foot traffic and are well-maintained. And then there are the malls that are in danger of showing up on a ruins-porn Tumblr somewhere: the ones where the owners have stopped caring, half the stores have moved out, and foot traffic is minimal.
From what I remember, a lot of the urbanism argument against malls is their car-centric nature: physically and mentally separated from the surrounding urban or suburban fabric, concentrating commercial activity in a single place and making it more difficult for it to thrive elsewhere. In a world where we're trying to get people out of their cars because of the environmental and traffic impacts, this argument still makes sense to me. But now we live in an era of "power centers" and big-box stores that share all those same elements, but without even the benefits discussed in the article: safe pedestrian and gathering spaces, easy access to air conditioning, free washrooms and other basic amenities, and the ability to foster communities in what is otherwise a private space. So maybe malls, even the ones doing poorly, aren't so bad in that context.
What's the way forward? Keep shopping malls, especially the ones that fit better in their communities, alive as-is? Is their private ownership a concern we need to address, to avoid malls in the first two categories turning into malls in the third, or to avoid situations where the benefits of malls are withheld from groups the private ownership deems undesirable? Should we be designing our public spaces with the benefits of indoor malls in mind to try and gain their benefits while avoiding some of the knock-on problems? I'm thinking about some commercial areas in places like Japan that feel very much like malls but are technically outdoors and covered, and are part of the city's street grid; is that a potential model?
posted by chrominance at 12:47 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
There are many different kinds of malls and some models seem more sustainable than others. I've been to malls in areas with lower economic activity that used to rely on big anchor tenants like national chains that moved out, to be replaced with local stores who are still supported by the local community and have a noticeable community-center feel. I've been to upscale malls with ridiculously enormous parking lots that also get a lot of foot traffic and are well-maintained. And then there are the malls that are in danger of showing up on a ruins-porn Tumblr somewhere: the ones where the owners have stopped caring, half the stores have moved out, and foot traffic is minimal.
From what I remember, a lot of the urbanism argument against malls is their car-centric nature: physically and mentally separated from the surrounding urban or suburban fabric, concentrating commercial activity in a single place and making it more difficult for it to thrive elsewhere. In a world where we're trying to get people out of their cars because of the environmental and traffic impacts, this argument still makes sense to me. But now we live in an era of "power centers" and big-box stores that share all those same elements, but without even the benefits discussed in the article: safe pedestrian and gathering spaces, easy access to air conditioning, free washrooms and other basic amenities, and the ability to foster communities in what is otherwise a private space. So maybe malls, even the ones doing poorly, aren't so bad in that context.
What's the way forward? Keep shopping malls, especially the ones that fit better in their communities, alive as-is? Is their private ownership a concern we need to address, to avoid malls in the first two categories turning into malls in the third, or to avoid situations where the benefits of malls are withheld from groups the private ownership deems undesirable? Should we be designing our public spaces with the benefits of indoor malls in mind to try and gain their benefits while avoiding some of the knock-on problems? I'm thinking about some commercial areas in places like Japan that feel very much like malls but are technically outdoors and covered, and are part of the city's street grid; is that a potential model?
posted by chrominance at 12:47 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Do any cities with continental climates manage public promenades, and if so, how funded?
Yes, many do. Pedestrian-only shopping, dining and entertainment streets are definitely having a resurgence in many cities right now. The thing that makes these difficult is not some inherent difficulty in making public space for people or particularly high costs, it's the political difficulty of taking space, even a few blocks, away from cars. But the politics of cars in our cities are definitely changing for better, just not nearly as quickly as we need them to change.
It's not expensive to provide the amenities of a mall by pedestrianizing an existing shopping street. We're talking about a pleasant surface on the street, some street furniture and some washrooms. Add in some bike parking, some trees and plants, maybe a little stage for performances, and allow restaurants and bars to use space in front of their establishments as patios, and you've got an enticing urban space.
You fund this from taxes, sometimes in general, sometimes additional taxes on the business property along the street when foot traffic benefit has been demonstrated. This isn't rocket science. People will gravitate to these areas, because people want a place to be with and around other people.
Even my small town of 7000 people has three blocks of pedestrian-only shopping right in the middle of town and our climate makes sitting around outside infeasible for the majority of the year.
posted by ssg at 1:12 PM on June 4, 2022 [36 favorites]
Yes, many do. Pedestrian-only shopping, dining and entertainment streets are definitely having a resurgence in many cities right now. The thing that makes these difficult is not some inherent difficulty in making public space for people or particularly high costs, it's the political difficulty of taking space, even a few blocks, away from cars. But the politics of cars in our cities are definitely changing for better, just not nearly as quickly as we need them to change.
It's not expensive to provide the amenities of a mall by pedestrianizing an existing shopping street. We're talking about a pleasant surface on the street, some street furniture and some washrooms. Add in some bike parking, some trees and plants, maybe a little stage for performances, and allow restaurants and bars to use space in front of their establishments as patios, and you've got an enticing urban space.
You fund this from taxes, sometimes in general, sometimes additional taxes on the business property along the street when foot traffic benefit has been demonstrated. This isn't rocket science. People will gravitate to these areas, because people want a place to be with and around other people.
Even my small town of 7000 people has three blocks of pedestrian-only shopping right in the middle of town and our climate makes sitting around outside infeasible for the majority of the year.
posted by ssg at 1:12 PM on June 4, 2022 [36 favorites]
There are a few mid-western cities that have tunnel systems which are just big malls to get around the seventy feet of snow and temps just above absolute zero in the winter, aren't there? Are those spaces privately owned? Do they get the same walker use?
Going to the mall was an activity as a teen, lame as that sounds (and almost certainly actually was). Nice way to just pass some time (and look at cute fellow teens, of course). We rarely spent much money, maybe a snack on occasion. Can't say the idea of a mall walk thrills me as an adult, but ask me on the 23rd consecutive cold rainy day in February when I'm out walking the park and I may have a different answer.
posted by maxwelton at 1:13 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Going to the mall was an activity as a teen, lame as that sounds (and almost certainly actually was). Nice way to just pass some time (and look at cute fellow teens, of course). We rarely spent much money, maybe a snack on occasion. Can't say the idea of a mall walk thrills me as an adult, but ask me on the 23rd consecutive cold rainy day in February when I'm out walking the park and I may have a different answer.
posted by maxwelton at 1:13 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
My mom and grandmother were mall walkers back in the early 80s, at Regency Mall in Augusta, GA. It's been abandoned for years, but at the time it was the largest mall in the state.
Unlike the streets in our neighborhood, which were really hilly and had no sidewalks, the mall was flat and safe. The doors opened around 6am, before any of the stores opened, and at times there might be a hundred or more people walking, mostly little old ladies like my grandmother who also got in a lot of socializing with their walking.
I was 14 when the mall opened in 1978, and I remember downtown Augusta going from a fairly thriving shopping and business district to a complete ghost town, almost overnight. The only things open in downtown for years after the mall opened were government offices like the courthouse. It's only been in the last 20 years or so that downtown has started to rebound, as people have moved back into the area and businesses have reopened on Broad Street. But it's still not really "back," though. Once you get a few blocks off Broad you're looking at abandoned buildings and vacant lots and a lot of poverty.
As a teen the mall was somewhere we could hang out that was safe. It had niche shops that would have never opened in the downtown area, along with places to sit and talk to your friends. If we had tried that downtown we would have been run off and told not to loiter.
All the pedestrian friendly shopping area I can think of here in Atlanta are in places I'd have to drive an hour to get to, and then I'd have to park, and then go and wander around outside in the heat or the rain or the cold to find the shop I wanted. I'd love to see more pedestrian friendly areas where people could live and shop, but sadly that's not how most cities in America are laid out. As someone else mentioned, the politics around banning cars seems to be a hard thing to overcome.
posted by ralan at 1:30 PM on June 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
Unlike the streets in our neighborhood, which were really hilly and had no sidewalks, the mall was flat and safe. The doors opened around 6am, before any of the stores opened, and at times there might be a hundred or more people walking, mostly little old ladies like my grandmother who also got in a lot of socializing with their walking.
I was 14 when the mall opened in 1978, and I remember downtown Augusta going from a fairly thriving shopping and business district to a complete ghost town, almost overnight. The only things open in downtown for years after the mall opened were government offices like the courthouse. It's only been in the last 20 years or so that downtown has started to rebound, as people have moved back into the area and businesses have reopened on Broad Street. But it's still not really "back," though. Once you get a few blocks off Broad you're looking at abandoned buildings and vacant lots and a lot of poverty.
As a teen the mall was somewhere we could hang out that was safe. It had niche shops that would have never opened in the downtown area, along with places to sit and talk to your friends. If we had tried that downtown we would have been run off and told not to loiter.
All the pedestrian friendly shopping area I can think of here in Atlanta are in places I'd have to drive an hour to get to, and then I'd have to park, and then go and wander around outside in the heat or the rain or the cold to find the shop I wanted. I'd love to see more pedestrian friendly areas where people could live and shop, but sadly that's not how most cities in America are laid out. As someone else mentioned, the politics around banning cars seems to be a hard thing to overcome.
posted by ralan at 1:30 PM on June 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
At 11th Street, the open parking in the median ends and a shaded, submerged parking pit in the median begins.I have never heard of such a thing before.
posted by clew at 1:36 PM on June 4, 2022
There are a few mid-western cities that have tunnel systems which are just big malls to get around the seventy feet of snow and temps just above absolute zero in the winter, aren't there? Are those spaces privately owned? Do they get the same walker use?
That reminds me, we've got one of those in Toronto (and it's apparently the largest underground shopping complex in the world). The vast majority of the buildings that make up the PATH network are privately owned, with developers shouldering the costs of connecting to the network; tenants seem to push developers to do it, as it makes more of the building's real estate valuable because of how much traffic goes through the PATH.
The PATH feels different from a normal shopping mall for a few reasons. One, it's enormous at 3.7 million square feet of retail space, though there are a large handful of malls bigger than that. Two, because it's a conglomeration of the basements of 75 buildings, it's more complex than your usual shopping mall layout, and differences in building age, standards and aesthetics can make the experience disorienting even with the presence of consistent wayfinding signage for the PATH network itself. That's what I love about it, but plenty of people hate how difficult it can be to navigate.
Three, because it connects a whole bunch of downtown office buildings as well as several transit stations, a lot of the traffic in the PATH can be classified as last-mile commuter traffic. Traffic in the mornings and evenings is largely people traveling to or from work, or buying things on the way. As you can imagine, people rushing to catch a train or make it to their 8:30 meeting lend a sense of urgency to the pedestrian experience that doesn't exist in the same way in most of the malls I've been in. It also means the PATH feels less like a space you spend time in (except for lunch breaks) and more a space you travel through to get somewhere else.
posted by chrominance at 1:48 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
That reminds me, we've got one of those in Toronto (and it's apparently the largest underground shopping complex in the world). The vast majority of the buildings that make up the PATH network are privately owned, with developers shouldering the costs of connecting to the network; tenants seem to push developers to do it, as it makes more of the building's real estate valuable because of how much traffic goes through the PATH.
The PATH feels different from a normal shopping mall for a few reasons. One, it's enormous at 3.7 million square feet of retail space, though there are a large handful of malls bigger than that. Two, because it's a conglomeration of the basements of 75 buildings, it's more complex than your usual shopping mall layout, and differences in building age, standards and aesthetics can make the experience disorienting even with the presence of consistent wayfinding signage for the PATH network itself. That's what I love about it, but plenty of people hate how difficult it can be to navigate.
Three, because it connects a whole bunch of downtown office buildings as well as several transit stations, a lot of the traffic in the PATH can be classified as last-mile commuter traffic. Traffic in the mornings and evenings is largely people traveling to or from work, or buying things on the way. As you can imagine, people rushing to catch a train or make it to their 8:30 meeting lend a sense of urgency to the pedestrian experience that doesn't exist in the same way in most of the malls I've been in. It also means the PATH feels less like a space you spend time in (except for lunch breaks) and more a space you travel through to get somewhere else.
posted by chrominance at 1:48 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
At 11th Street, the open parking in the median ends and a shaded, submerged parking pit in the median begins.
I have never heard of such a thing before.
Yeah, it was a weird thing. They're getting removed and replaced with regular parking.
They were built after I left town, and on the few occasions I've been back and have had to go downtown I never parked there.
posted by ralan at 1:56 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have never heard of such a thing before.
Yeah, it was a weird thing. They're getting removed and replaced with regular parking.
They were built after I left town, and on the few occasions I've been back and have had to go downtown I never parked there.
posted by ralan at 1:56 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
clew: "There’s also plenty of malls infamous for harassing out people of color and nothing guaranteeing an accepting one where needed."
My point was not that malls are spaces of perfect harmony between all people, but rather the simple fact that most of the criticism of malls doesn't take into account the way non-white, able, middle-aged, male bodies experience and use public space.
posted by signal at 1:59 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
My point was not that malls are spaces of perfect harmony between all people, but rather the simple fact that most of the criticism of malls doesn't take into account the way non-white, able, middle-aged, male bodies experience and use public space.
posted by signal at 1:59 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I have felt like a time traveller a couple of times recently.
A mall somewhere in Saudi Arabia, just like the 80s, but super rich and all name brand, full of people milling and shopping for Cartier and Rolex.
And more recently in China, malls very similar from my childhood, with KFCs and Baskin Robbins and an odd mix of real brands and very fake chinese knockoffs.
In Kabul, and also here in Dushanbe, the "mall" is much smaller and more haphazard, but still seems like the place all the rich people want to come...
It's like urban developers all over the world saw American TV in the 80s and decided that was the dream... WTF?
posted by Meatbomb at 2:16 PM on June 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
A mall somewhere in Saudi Arabia, just like the 80s, but super rich and all name brand, full of people milling and shopping for Cartier and Rolex.
And more recently in China, malls very similar from my childhood, with KFCs and Baskin Robbins and an odd mix of real brands and very fake chinese knockoffs.
In Kabul, and also here in Dushanbe, the "mall" is much smaller and more haphazard, but still seems like the place all the rich people want to come...
It's like urban developers all over the world saw American TV in the 80s and decided that was the dream... WTF?
posted by Meatbomb at 2:16 PM on June 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
This article is definitely tied into the particularly North American history of malls (its worth acknowledging that “malls” exist all over the world in various interpretations, and that is also a great research topic). We remade our cities for cars, and one of the side effects was the decoupling of infrastructure from habitation, which means that the common space people want to have next to their commerce can’t be served by the street. I think malls since the 60’s have served as an analogue to public space in many communities that have worked pretty damn well, considering— certainly the privatization of public space provides a lot of opportunity for exclusion (there are examples in the article), but as TFA points out there are plenty of folks for whom a real community has been grafted onto the commercial real estate.
I think one side effect of the separation above is that it can be hard to think of public space coexisting with commerce, everything is a park or a mall with no space in between. The current resurgence of pedestrian streets and food carts and trucks points out that this isn’t a natural dichotomy.
posted by q*ben at 2:18 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think one side effect of the separation above is that it can be hard to think of public space coexisting with commerce, everything is a park or a mall with no space in between. The current resurgence of pedestrian streets and food carts and trucks points out that this isn’t a natural dichotomy.
posted by q*ben at 2:18 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's a point worth repeating that a lot of the criticism of malls comes from white, upper-middle-class, able, middle-aged men.
A visibly homeless person wouldn't last 5 minutes inside any mall in America before getting strong-armed out by security. Black people, teenagers, people with disabilities routinely get surveilled, discriminated against, or made to feel unwelcome.
Oh and I'm not White FYI.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:49 PM on June 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
A visibly homeless person wouldn't last 5 minutes inside any mall in America before getting strong-armed out by security. Black people, teenagers, people with disabilities routinely get surveilled, discriminated against, or made to feel unwelcome.
Oh and I'm not White FYI.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:49 PM on June 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
I think what the article gets close to and what folks in this thread touch on is that malls provide a lot more than a safe pedestrian experience - they provide a simulacrum of a healthy city: a place to wander, eat, shop, hang out, see and be seen, enjoy yourself in public, in a human-scaled public.
It's pretty perverse that in the USA, we were building malls while dismantling healthy cities. and splitpeasoup's comment really clearly gets at what's so sinister about having that really important human experience only provided by private companies.
posted by entropone at 4:04 PM on June 4, 2022 [21 favorites]
It's pretty perverse that in the USA, we were building malls while dismantling healthy cities. and splitpeasoup's comment really clearly gets at what's so sinister about having that really important human experience only provided by private companies.
posted by entropone at 4:04 PM on June 4, 2022 [21 favorites]
See Walter Benjamin, "The Arcade Project". I've heard that the first american arcade/mall was in the building on the north east corner of Chambers and Broadway, followed by another multi-story arcade south of city hall, that one still has the arcade format with skylights and inward facing glass fronted stores displaying merchandise.
posted by StickyCarpet at 4:06 PM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by StickyCarpet at 4:06 PM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Also, it's hard for me to see malls as a pedestrian mecca when the biggest mall mogul in the Seattle area has made it his life's mission to oppose public transit and walkability. Despite slow progress over the last couple of decades, even today downtown Bellevue is hell for pedestrians.
posted by splitpeasoup at 4:08 PM on June 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 4:08 PM on June 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
It's like urban developers all over the world saw American TV in the 80s and decided that was the dream... WTF?
That's because we all did. This is part of the effect America's cultural hegemony had on the world; America has been a pied piper leading other countries to rip up useful infrastructure and adopt fatally flawed approaches for decades now. We're only now putting streetcars back in.
posted by Merus at 4:14 PM on June 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
That's because we all did. This is part of the effect America's cultural hegemony had on the world; America has been a pied piper leading other countries to rip up useful infrastructure and adopt fatally flawed approaches for decades now. We're only now putting streetcars back in.
posted by Merus at 4:14 PM on June 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
What I’m continually astounded by is that America thinks that walking is an optional extra.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:31 PM on June 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 4:31 PM on June 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
I have read (not recently) that property depreciation is used as an accounting trick to turn shopping malls into tax shelters.
About twenty years ago, when I lived in Knoxville, there was some sort of editorial which pointed out that the downtown business district had the same real estate footprint and the same number of parking spaces (divided between street parking, a few lots, and a few garages) as the West Town Mall and its enormous surface parking lot. The city successfully pulled off an impressive downtown revitalization in the years after that.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 4:35 PM on June 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
About twenty years ago, when I lived in Knoxville, there was some sort of editorial which pointed out that the downtown business district had the same real estate footprint and the same number of parking spaces (divided between street parking, a few lots, and a few garages) as the West Town Mall and its enormous surface parking lot. The city successfully pulled off an impressive downtown revitalization in the years after that.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 4:35 PM on June 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
What I’m continually astounded by is that America thinks that walking is an optional extra
I mean in most of the US it literally is. When I lived in Charlotte if I had tried to walk anywhere I would have been obliterated by a car.
posted by Ferreous at 4:43 PM on June 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
I mean in most of the US it literally is. When I lived in Charlotte if I had tried to walk anywhere I would have been obliterated by a car.
posted by Ferreous at 4:43 PM on June 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
A visibly homeless person wouldn't last 5 minutes inside any mall in America before getting strong-armed out by security. Black people, teenagers, people with disabilities routinely get surveilled, discriminated against, or made to feel unwelcome.
This is in no way limited to malls.
One of the things that made malls successful was that they tended to be more occupied by nationally run chains and franchises rather than mom and pop shops, which found themselves caring more about getting foot traffic than shooing away those rotten kids or the folks from the other side of the tracks. Those mom and pop shops sure as fuck have no interest in homeless people.
I think one side effect of the separation above is that it can be hard to think of public space coexisting with commerce, everything is a park or a mall with no space in between. The current resurgence of pedestrian streets and food carts and trucks points out that this isn’t a natural dichotomy.
Food carts and trucks are commerce. Without them, it's just a street people use to get to a destination, not much a destination in itself.
I get the feeling some of us wish to have public spaces where people want to just gather, places that are somehow unsullied by money changers. And not parks. My observation is that such demand is actually pretty rare.
And somehow, malls are bad because cars. Even outdoor pedestrian public street malls are still destinations that require transportation. For most of the US, that means you still have to deal with cars in one way or another.
Malls succeed when they can provide something that enough people want. Even if it was nothing more than novelty. It's astounding that plenty of folks here can't seem to understand that.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:19 PM on June 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is in no way limited to malls.
One of the things that made malls successful was that they tended to be more occupied by nationally run chains and franchises rather than mom and pop shops, which found themselves caring more about getting foot traffic than shooing away those rotten kids or the folks from the other side of the tracks. Those mom and pop shops sure as fuck have no interest in homeless people.
I think one side effect of the separation above is that it can be hard to think of public space coexisting with commerce, everything is a park or a mall with no space in between. The current resurgence of pedestrian streets and food carts and trucks points out that this isn’t a natural dichotomy.
Food carts and trucks are commerce. Without them, it's just a street people use to get to a destination, not much a destination in itself.
I get the feeling some of us wish to have public spaces where people want to just gather, places that are somehow unsullied by money changers. And not parks. My observation is that such demand is actually pretty rare.
And somehow, malls are bad because cars. Even outdoor pedestrian public street malls are still destinations that require transportation. For most of the US, that means you still have to deal with cars in one way or another.
Malls succeed when they can provide something that enough people want. Even if it was nothing more than novelty. It's astounding that plenty of folks here can't seem to understand that.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:19 PM on June 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Whether malls themselves succeed is a question that will be carefully studied by mall investors. I’m interested in whether malls are good for a polity, for its people, which people? And that’s still unclear.
posted by clew at 5:49 PM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by clew at 5:49 PM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
The PATH feels different from a normal shopping mall for a few reasons.
The PATH is a situation weirdly in flux. Its customer base is the people who work(ed) in the office towers above it but post-pandemic, it’s become clear a lot of jobs don’t need people in the office forty hours a week; as a commercial enterprise, its continued viability is open to question.
At the same time, Toronto had seen scores of condo towers go up downtown in the last few years, some of which are connected to (and many more of which are a short walk from) the PATH. Historically, residential housing connected to it has been negligible but that is a rapidly growing segment of the people who use it.
As an inadvertent piece of infrastructure, it is unique. I cannot imagine more than the tiniest segments being removed, and when they are (e.g. the original twenties connection between the Royal York and Union Station), they are usually replaced with functionally similar links.
As chrominance suggests, it is essentially a massive mall. What it will be in five years, I cannot even begin to speculate.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:53 PM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
The PATH is a situation weirdly in flux. Its customer base is the people who work(ed) in the office towers above it but post-pandemic, it’s become clear a lot of jobs don’t need people in the office forty hours a week; as a commercial enterprise, its continued viability is open to question.
At the same time, Toronto had seen scores of condo towers go up downtown in the last few years, some of which are connected to (and many more of which are a short walk from) the PATH. Historically, residential housing connected to it has been negligible but that is a rapidly growing segment of the people who use it.
As an inadvertent piece of infrastructure, it is unique. I cannot imagine more than the tiniest segments being removed, and when they are (e.g. the original twenties connection between the Royal York and Union Station), they are usually replaced with functionally similar links.
As chrominance suggests, it is essentially a massive mall. What it will be in five years, I cannot even begin to speculate.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:53 PM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's a point worth repeating that a lot of the criticism of malls comes from white, upper-middle-class, able, middle-aged men.
What is this actually referring to? When I think “criticism of malls” (especially “urbanist criticism of malls” as per the article) I think what entropone summarized pretty pithily:
It's pretty perverse that in the USA, we were building malls while dismantling healthy cities.
A mall provides an enclosed version of public space, that one has to drive to. This mostly only makes sense as a result of decisions about how to develop everything else that were fundamentally pretty exclusionary.
posted by atoxyl at 5:55 PM on June 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
What is this actually referring to? When I think “criticism of malls” (especially “urbanist criticism of malls” as per the article) I think what entropone summarized pretty pithily:
It's pretty perverse that in the USA, we were building malls while dismantling healthy cities.
A mall provides an enclosed version of public space, that one has to drive to. This mostly only makes sense as a result of decisions about how to develop everything else that were fundamentally pretty exclusionary.
posted by atoxyl at 5:55 PM on June 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
But I do like and agree with the idea that the design that goes into making malls into workable public space may have lessons for the design of public space in general.
posted by atoxyl at 6:00 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 6:00 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's a point worth repeating that a lot of the criticism of malls comes from white, upper-middle-class, able, middle-aged men.
Who else has made this point? Genuinely curious, because it doesn't necessarily jibe with my experience and I'm open to realizing my perspective has been narrow.
posted by dusty potato at 6:03 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Who else has made this point? Genuinely curious, because it doesn't necessarily jibe with my experience and I'm open to realizing my perspective has been narrow.
posted by dusty potato at 6:03 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am glad I grew up in a city built before automobiles
posted by eustatic at 6:18 PM on June 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 6:18 PM on June 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
The idea that malls get accessibility more right than many other places seems quite legitimate. What I’m getting at is just that having bubbles of space that do these things right is mostly only necessary or viable because the rest of what should be public space doesn’t do it right, which is driven in large part by the same forces that built the bubbles.
posted by atoxyl at 6:23 PM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 6:23 PM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
The idea that malls get accessibility more right than many other places seems quite legitimate.
Malls have some good physical accessibility elements -- wide, flat pathways that can easily be used by someone in a wheelchair, say. But that is coupled with low social accessibility -- the mall is private space and is policed as such. As mentioned above, that means visibly homeless people aren't allowed to use the space, but also many of the other uses of genuine public spaces aren't allowed.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:38 PM on June 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
Malls have some good physical accessibility elements -- wide, flat pathways that can easily be used by someone in a wheelchair, say. But that is coupled with low social accessibility -- the mall is private space and is policed as such. As mentioned above, that means visibly homeless people aren't allowed to use the space, but also many of the other uses of genuine public spaces aren't allowed.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:38 PM on June 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
E.g., for US malls, memorable to me because IIRC the court case started in my hometown, is that the Supreme Court declared that political speech isn’t protected. You can get thrown out for what you say, no matter who you are or how you say it.
posted by clew at 6:39 PM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by clew at 6:39 PM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
What is this actually referring to? When I think “criticism of malls” (especially “urbanist criticism of malls” as per the article) I think what entropone summarized pretty pithily [...]
I feel like people are talking past each other a bit. Like, the bad criticism of malls would be "oh these are so boring and banal, full of teens and women shopping for girlie/childish bullshit, there is no upside to malls, the people who like malls are wrong/have false consciousness/etc". Basically Adbusters criticism which does not take into account that many people might like to have access to a climate-controlled, walkable space where they could meet friends without spending much money and that in fact there are enjoyable social and aesthetic aspects to malls that ought to be available to all, that the problem is not that someone somewhere is eating inferior food court semi-Chinese food rather than authentic Hunanese but that people are being policed and excluded.
Like, if the mall is the only accessible affordable space for you as a teen or a frail elderly person, someone saying "let's get rid of the mall, malls are bad" is probably not in fact going to replace what the mall gives you because frankly when people tear stuff down there is almost never a quick replacement of its amenities. "No mall" is not going to mean "a rich public sphere immediately springs to life", it's going to mean "no mall and a dead downtown for years ergo nowhere to meet friends or walk indoors in the summer".
Once actual public space is destroyed, getting rid of the privatized pseudo public space is not in itself enough to recreate what was lost, that's what I think people are getting at. So you go from "flawed and exclusionary space that none the less benefits, eg, frail elderly people" to nothing.
posted by Frowner at 7:04 PM on June 4, 2022 [36 favorites]
I feel like people are talking past each other a bit. Like, the bad criticism of malls would be "oh these are so boring and banal, full of teens and women shopping for girlie/childish bullshit, there is no upside to malls, the people who like malls are wrong/have false consciousness/etc". Basically Adbusters criticism which does not take into account that many people might like to have access to a climate-controlled, walkable space where they could meet friends without spending much money and that in fact there are enjoyable social and aesthetic aspects to malls that ought to be available to all, that the problem is not that someone somewhere is eating inferior food court semi-Chinese food rather than authentic Hunanese but that people are being policed and excluded.
Like, if the mall is the only accessible affordable space for you as a teen or a frail elderly person, someone saying "let's get rid of the mall, malls are bad" is probably not in fact going to replace what the mall gives you because frankly when people tear stuff down there is almost never a quick replacement of its amenities. "No mall" is not going to mean "a rich public sphere immediately springs to life", it's going to mean "no mall and a dead downtown for years ergo nowhere to meet friends or walk indoors in the summer".
Once actual public space is destroyed, getting rid of the privatized pseudo public space is not in itself enough to recreate what was lost, that's what I think people are getting at. So you go from "flawed and exclusionary space that none the less benefits, eg, frail elderly people" to nothing.
posted by Frowner at 7:04 PM on June 4, 2022 [36 favorites]
I feel like people are talking past each other a bit.
It’s more that the open-endedness of the comment I responded to struck me as implying something of a reducto-ad-Adbusters of the more serious criticisms.
Anyway the article explains at least one side of the contradiction between the idea that “mall” is a bit of a dirty word in progressive urban planning circles and the reality that they are used as public space by diverse groups of people pretty well.
posted by atoxyl at 8:08 PM on June 4, 2022
It’s more that the open-endedness of the comment I responded to struck me as implying something of a reducto-ad-Adbusters of the more serious criticisms.
Anyway the article explains at least one side of the contradiction between the idea that “mall” is a bit of a dirty word in progressive urban planning circles and the reality that they are used as public space by diverse groups of people pretty well.
posted by atoxyl at 8:08 PM on June 4, 2022
The idea that malls get accessibility more right than many other places seems quite legitimate.
Malls seem to be very escalator-heavy (in fact, in my native India, malls were pretty much the first places that introduced escalators into the country). The heavy use of fragrances shuts out people with MCS. I have an autistic son, and genuine public spaces (public transit, libraries, parks) seem to be places that cater to his needs and that he loves, while the mall is sensorily unpleasant and not catering to his needs. Anecdotally, in downtown Seattle I'm used to seeing people in wheelchairs on the publicly-owned sidewalks and public areas right outside Westlake Mall, but not inside it. So for all these reasons I have a hard time seeing commercial malls as more inclusive than the public squares and commons they have replaced.
But I'm not disabled myself and perhaps my take on this is all wrong since my own point of view is that of an able person. I'm curious to hear from MeFites with disabilities.
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:20 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Malls seem to be very escalator-heavy (in fact, in my native India, malls were pretty much the first places that introduced escalators into the country). The heavy use of fragrances shuts out people with MCS. I have an autistic son, and genuine public spaces (public transit, libraries, parks) seem to be places that cater to his needs and that he loves, while the mall is sensorily unpleasant and not catering to his needs. Anecdotally, in downtown Seattle I'm used to seeing people in wheelchairs on the publicly-owned sidewalks and public areas right outside Westlake Mall, but not inside it. So for all these reasons I have a hard time seeing commercial malls as more inclusive than the public squares and commons they have replaced.
But I'm not disabled myself and perhaps my take on this is all wrong since my own point of view is that of an able person. I'm curious to hear from MeFites with disabilities.
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:20 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's a point worth repeating that a lot of the criticism of malls comes from white, upper-middle-class, able, middle-aged men.
Apart from being a couple of decades older than other middle-aged white men, what frightens me most about enclosed malls is that, architecturally speaking, they are permanent super-spreader events. And the prevalence of Covid19 infections in the United States could quite likely be 30 times higher than reported.
Mmm... 30 times higher... /Homer Simpson.
And as most infections of the well vaccinated and well boosted are asymptomatic and therefore go unnoticed by the so infected, they can be constantly facilltating the extra actual deaths of other nearby human beings if they choose to go mask free indoors anywhere at any time. Without a care in the world. Still and for the foreseeable and the unforseeable future. Please keep that in mind.
posted by y2karl at 8:55 PM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Apart from being a couple of decades older than other middle-aged white men, what frightens me most about enclosed malls is that, architecturally speaking, they are permanent super-spreader events. And the prevalence of Covid19 infections in the United States could quite likely be 30 times higher than reported.
Mmm... 30 times higher... /Homer Simpson.
And as most infections of the well vaccinated and well boosted are asymptomatic and therefore go unnoticed by the so infected, they can be constantly facilltating the extra actual deaths of other nearby human beings if they choose to go mask free indoors anywhere at any time. Without a care in the world. Still and for the foreseeable and the unforseeable future. Please keep that in mind.
posted by y2karl at 8:55 PM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
The reason a "safe pedestrian experience" has to be recreated in malls is because the real thing was destroyed by white flight. So it sits kind of oddly with me to hear them praised as a wonderful site for use by diverse groups. Like, that old white person mall-walking probably moved out of the city in the late 1960s because "it wasn't safe" and enjoyed all the benefits of suburban segregation (including, most likely, opposing public transit to link their suburb to the city proper), only to find later that there are downsides to the awful built environment of white supremacy. If there are more diverse groups using malls now, it's probably because of inner-ring suburb economic decay, which has, in some places, led to dramatic increases in minority population.
Once actual public space is destroyed, getting rid of the privatized pseudo public space is not in itself enough to recreate what was lost, that's what I think people are getting at.
At the same time, this is fair...but is the alternative really "nothing?"
posted by praemunire at 10:29 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Once actual public space is destroyed, getting rid of the privatized pseudo public space is not in itself enough to recreate what was lost, that's what I think people are getting at.
At the same time, this is fair...but is the alternative really "nothing?"
posted by praemunire at 10:29 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
As malls are going out of fashion due to factors unrelated to changes in urban planning, yes, the alternative is often nothing.
posted by Selena777 at 10:33 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 10:33 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Do locals use the Zurich Hauptbahnhof as a pedestrian mall even when they have no train to get on? As a tourist I sure have. It was raining.
Is there a structural reason that enclosed pedestrian retail concourses would be car-associated?
posted by away for regrooving at 11:25 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is there a structural reason that enclosed pedestrian retail concourses would be car-associated?
posted by away for regrooving at 11:25 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
As malls are going out of fashion due to factors unrelated to changes in urban planning, yes, the alternative is often nothing.
It's strange to treat the built environment as if it were the weather, something we have no control over.
posted by praemunire at 12:16 AM on June 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's strange to treat the built environment as if it were the weather, something we have no control over.
posted by praemunire at 12:16 AM on June 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Where I live there are outlet "malls" that are largely semi-covered, outdoor-ish rows of stores facing inwards like old pre-mall shopping centers. They are quite popular, I'd say as popular as the dying classic mall with its own major transit stop about 10 miles away ever was. The shopping lanes are also much narrower than the wide boulevards inside 80s malls.
Shopping has changed. The stores at the outlet malls are mostly brands. The Adidas store, the Corningware store, the Calvin Klein store. There's some overlap with varied inventory mall tenants like Express and Sunglass Hut, but it's largely single-brand stores that aren't tremendously large. One trick is that the word "outlet" implies lower prices for things that couldn't sell, but they're just regular stores. Brands have stores now, that's the outlet.
Which brings up another change: anchor tenants. Department stores are dead. There simply aren't retailers that are going to stock three LARGE floors. Whether it's zoning changes making more square footage available for building, I've never seen a three-storey Target or Walmart. And if there were retailers who could take the place of Nordstrom and Macy's and JCPenney's, there isn't enough interest in them to support having 20,000 sqft of 5 of them every 15 miles in a suburban conurbation. Even Best Buy is pretty sad these days.
Target and Walmart are the department stores of the now, but the range of quality available at each is much, much narrower, and they're more of a convenience store model than a full-service cheap socks, TVs, and engagement rings destination.
I would love it if the walkers carried the day. One thing I've seen at my Aunt's retirement neighborhood is that they built the main restaurant-gym-pool community center to have a whole indoor walking lane around the whole thing, so to some degree it's metastasizing. It's definitely an upscale area, so with the wider availability and accessibility of malls I would love it if the walkers carried the day, but I think the malls will have to demolish the anchor tenant parts of the structure in order to manage the space more efficiently.
posted by rhizome at 12:40 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Shopping has changed. The stores at the outlet malls are mostly brands. The Adidas store, the Corningware store, the Calvin Klein store. There's some overlap with varied inventory mall tenants like Express and Sunglass Hut, but it's largely single-brand stores that aren't tremendously large. One trick is that the word "outlet" implies lower prices for things that couldn't sell, but they're just regular stores. Brands have stores now, that's the outlet.
Which brings up another change: anchor tenants. Department stores are dead. There simply aren't retailers that are going to stock three LARGE floors. Whether it's zoning changes making more square footage available for building, I've never seen a three-storey Target or Walmart. And if there were retailers who could take the place of Nordstrom and Macy's and JCPenney's, there isn't enough interest in them to support having 20,000 sqft of 5 of them every 15 miles in a suburban conurbation. Even Best Buy is pretty sad these days.
Target and Walmart are the department stores of the now, but the range of quality available at each is much, much narrower, and they're more of a convenience store model than a full-service cheap socks, TVs, and engagement rings destination.
I would love it if the walkers carried the day. One thing I've seen at my Aunt's retirement neighborhood is that they built the main restaurant-gym-pool community center to have a whole indoor walking lane around the whole thing, so to some degree it's metastasizing. It's definitely an upscale area, so with the wider availability and accessibility of malls I would love it if the walkers carried the day, but I think the malls will have to demolish the anchor tenant parts of the structure in order to manage the space more efficiently.
posted by rhizome at 12:40 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Before COVID, my toddler learned to toddle in winter. All winter and spring, parks were too uneven with snow or too slippery with mud, and winter clothing and boots were too heavy and bulky for him to be able to actually practice walking. The perfect solution was to take him to the mall and let him walk on the nice smooth floors. I have fond memories of chasing him around and then eating noodles together in the food court while old people grinned at us.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:14 AM on June 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:14 AM on June 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
Our local mall is right down the road from a large, upscale retirement community, so (pre-pandemic, anyway) there has always been a large contingent of mall walkers. One restaurant in the food court used to open early to sell coffee to mall walkers and mall employees. When I worked at a store in the mall, I always liked doing opening shifts because the walkers were a cheerful bunch and it was nice watching them pass by and listening to their chatter.
Then again, as a Gen X kid I have a lot of mall memories and most are pleasant.
(IIRC, the store where I worked closed and was never replaced, and is Now’s used as a flex space. I got my COVID vaccines there, and some of the same fixtures I used decades ago were still on the walls. And it smelled exactly the same.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:30 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Then again, as a Gen X kid I have a lot of mall memories and most are pleasant.
(IIRC, the store where I worked closed and was never replaced, and is Now’s used as a flex space. I got my COVID vaccines there, and some of the same fixtures I used decades ago were still on the walls. And it smelled exactly the same.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:30 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Great article, and now I'm interested in the book that this is an excerpt from. Thanks, Ahmad Khani -- great post.
posted by lazaruslong at 2:05 AM on June 5, 2022
posted by lazaruslong at 2:05 AM on June 5, 2022
When I was in grad school,I lived near a mini mail, surrounded by senior living complexes The mall had a grocery store, drug store, a branch of the local library and a small food court among other things. It worked so well to help older people keep their independence a bit longer.
posted by peppermind at 2:08 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by peppermind at 2:08 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's strange to treat the built environment as if it were the weather, something we have no control over.
So I remember the destruction of public housing - blowing up Cabrini Green, etc. I remember how everyone made these very legit criticisms of public housing as it existed, and how we were going to get all this scattered, human-scale development that would integrate public housing with other development, etc. But what actually happened was we got sweet fuck all and public housing residents just...sort of scattered and disappeared because of course we wouldn't bother to keep track of them.
In fact, here in liberal Minneapolis, I've seen that same bait and switch four or five times since I moved here in the late nineties as we've knocked down the last of our public housing (some of which actually is small and local and would be pretty nice if it were maintained instead of left to rot). Every time., they assure all us Charlie Browns that they're going to build new better housing for residents instead of pulling the football away, and every time we get maybe 1/5 as many public units, almost always at a higher rent (and yes, you do pay rent on this stuff, it's not really free except in very limited circumstances). First they displace the residents and tell everyone that there will be new housing in eighteen months, and then in eighteen months there's no housing but everyone has either moved in with friends, left the city or become homeless, so they drop off the radar.
I also remember back when we were going to deinstitutionalize all the seriously mentally ill people because who wants to keep them in some kind of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest hellscape? We were going to build integrated community care in the Carter administration. Of course, once everyone was deinstitionalized, somehow we never actually built all that community residential care and people were just on the street - I am just barely old enough to remember when the US didn't have a lot of homeless people and when that started to change.
In short, legitimate criticism of existing structures usually gets leveraged to destroy whatever pitiful benefit those structures provide and make more money/space/property for the powerful.
And I want to add that there was in fact lots of very sincere, fairly well organized left wing criticism of public housing and mental institutions - it's not that this was some right-wing initiative. So I'd say people should be a little clever, because the left was much stronger in 1980 than it is now and conditions were better.
~~
In short, homeless people and rambling youth are extremely unlikely to be given free roaming privileges in new, upscale shopping streets, and of course a new upscale shopping street doesn't keep the rain off or keep an elderly person cool during a heatwave, does it? And it doesn't have a cheapo food court since it's all artisanal elderflower goji berry bowls.
I mean, my point isn't "hooray for the mall, nothing can ever get better", it's just that I'd like to see things get better first before we start stripping existing infrastructure for parts.
posted by Frowner at 3:39 AM on June 5, 2022 [38 favorites]
So I remember the destruction of public housing - blowing up Cabrini Green, etc. I remember how everyone made these very legit criticisms of public housing as it existed, and how we were going to get all this scattered, human-scale development that would integrate public housing with other development, etc. But what actually happened was we got sweet fuck all and public housing residents just...sort of scattered and disappeared because of course we wouldn't bother to keep track of them.
In fact, here in liberal Minneapolis, I've seen that same bait and switch four or five times since I moved here in the late nineties as we've knocked down the last of our public housing (some of which actually is small and local and would be pretty nice if it were maintained instead of left to rot). Every time., they assure all us Charlie Browns that they're going to build new better housing for residents instead of pulling the football away, and every time we get maybe 1/5 as many public units, almost always at a higher rent (and yes, you do pay rent on this stuff, it's not really free except in very limited circumstances). First they displace the residents and tell everyone that there will be new housing in eighteen months, and then in eighteen months there's no housing but everyone has either moved in with friends, left the city or become homeless, so they drop off the radar.
I also remember back when we were going to deinstitutionalize all the seriously mentally ill people because who wants to keep them in some kind of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest hellscape? We were going to build integrated community care in the Carter administration. Of course, once everyone was deinstitionalized, somehow we never actually built all that community residential care and people were just on the street - I am just barely old enough to remember when the US didn't have a lot of homeless people and when that started to change.
In short, legitimate criticism of existing structures usually gets leveraged to destroy whatever pitiful benefit those structures provide and make more money/space/property for the powerful.
And I want to add that there was in fact lots of very sincere, fairly well organized left wing criticism of public housing and mental institutions - it's not that this was some right-wing initiative. So I'd say people should be a little clever, because the left was much stronger in 1980 than it is now and conditions were better.
~~
In short, homeless people and rambling youth are extremely unlikely to be given free roaming privileges in new, upscale shopping streets, and of course a new upscale shopping street doesn't keep the rain off or keep an elderly person cool during a heatwave, does it? And it doesn't have a cheapo food court since it's all artisanal elderflower goji berry bowls.
I mean, my point isn't "hooray for the mall, nothing can ever get better", it's just that I'd like to see things get better first before we start stripping existing infrastructure for parts.
posted by Frowner at 3:39 AM on June 5, 2022 [38 favorites]
Malls (Shopping Centres, they're called here) make me uncomfortable. The big buildings of the past like pyramids, cathedrals, houses of parliament- our era it's gigantic temples to consumerism. Of course, I've participated in that commerce, it's pretty unavoidable.
I've moved to a country town but recently visited Melbourne and went to a large shopping centre there, and wow was I uncomfortable. Mask wearing was not common, it felt very enclosed and claustrophobic in a way it hadn't, pre-pandemic. I was struck at people just wandering around like the old days, where as I was on a mission to get in, get what I needed, and get out to the fresh air again. I was reminded that this is some of the "open space" available to people and how lucky I am to have open space available to me.
posted by freethefeet at 4:35 AM on June 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've moved to a country town but recently visited Melbourne and went to a large shopping centre there, and wow was I uncomfortable. Mask wearing was not common, it felt very enclosed and claustrophobic in a way it hadn't, pre-pandemic. I was struck at people just wandering around like the old days, where as I was on a mission to get in, get what I needed, and get out to the fresh air again. I was reminded that this is some of the "open space" available to people and how lucky I am to have open space available to me.
posted by freethefeet at 4:35 AM on June 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Toronto also has the Eaton Centre downtown (connects to PATH and has a subway stop at each end), Scarborough Town Centre, a mall that has/had a rapid transit (LRT) and will have a (ridiculous) subway stop sometime when the new project finishes, plus a GO/Megabus depot (RIP Greyhound), and Yorkdale (subway/GO terminal), which might explain why they have survived. Other malls near me fell (Warden Woods became townhouses, Morningside Mall became a strip plaza.)
Pacific Mall is also a trip. You have to drive there though. It’s worth reading its history and link to immigration policy and the rise of the “ethnoburb” in that linked entry, if you are into that stuff.
I should note that the PATH is sometimes weirdly inaccessible. It slopes a lot and so there are spots where there are “a few” stairs, sometimes with a ramp, sometimes with a lift, sometimes nothing. Also some of the pathways get locked on weekends.
The various owners have accessibility requirements so there’s usually an elevator somewhere but it’s very weird.
One weird mall in limbo is Eglinton Square. That mall was a farm, then a department store with parking in all three levels next to it on the Golden Mile (“strip mall plazas! The Future is Here!”) and the a strip mall, and then they enclosed it (and there’s a library branch inside.) Now it’s on the may-be-completed-soon-ha-ha Eglinton LRT line, so it’s proposed to become mixed use with condos etc. (In Toronto we’re undergoing intensification although transit corridors - my local commuter rail station has a proposal to put 900 units of housing, rental high rise + condo, next to it.)
When I had toddlers and it was bad weather the malls near me were a godsend. I also spent time on them as a teen. But I do not like them; I get migraines and also a weird rushed feeling, even pre-Covid. I do miss Pacific Mall. Pre-Covid it was also a spot where masks were relatively common, especially during cold/flu season.
I got vaccinated in the massive, empty anchor space provided by the demise of Sears at Scarborough Town, and it was a weird experience. I think it’s likely a number of young adults got their shots because it was there. I bribed my youngest (he’d’ve gone anyway) with the promise of cake from the Cake Boss vending machine. For my second shot, the mall had set up an outdoor skating rink in the parking lot that was playing 80s hits. They also turned an outdoor space into a “mall” of food trucks which remains. I think all this convinces me that space works best when you either have a commercial entity that wants to work with the community, or government that can afford to invest.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:02 AM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Pacific Mall is also a trip. You have to drive there though. It’s worth reading its history and link to immigration policy and the rise of the “ethnoburb” in that linked entry, if you are into that stuff.
I should note that the PATH is sometimes weirdly inaccessible. It slopes a lot and so there are spots where there are “a few” stairs, sometimes with a ramp, sometimes with a lift, sometimes nothing. Also some of the pathways get locked on weekends.
The various owners have accessibility requirements so there’s usually an elevator somewhere but it’s very weird.
One weird mall in limbo is Eglinton Square. That mall was a farm, then a department store with parking in all three levels next to it on the Golden Mile (“strip mall plazas! The Future is Here!”) and the a strip mall, and then they enclosed it (and there’s a library branch inside.) Now it’s on the may-be-completed-soon-ha-ha Eglinton LRT line, so it’s proposed to become mixed use with condos etc. (In Toronto we’re undergoing intensification although transit corridors - my local commuter rail station has a proposal to put 900 units of housing, rental high rise + condo, next to it.)
When I had toddlers and it was bad weather the malls near me were a godsend. I also spent time on them as a teen. But I do not like them; I get migraines and also a weird rushed feeling, even pre-Covid. I do miss Pacific Mall. Pre-Covid it was also a spot where masks were relatively common, especially during cold/flu season.
I got vaccinated in the massive, empty anchor space provided by the demise of Sears at Scarborough Town, and it was a weird experience. I think it’s likely a number of young adults got their shots because it was there. I bribed my youngest (he’d’ve gone anyway) with the promise of cake from the Cake Boss vending machine. For my second shot, the mall had set up an outdoor skating rink in the parking lot that was playing 80s hits. They also turned an outdoor space into a “mall” of food trucks which remains. I think all this convinces me that space works best when you either have a commercial entity that wants to work with the community, or government that can afford to invest.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:02 AM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's a point worth repeating that a lot of the criticism of malls comes from white, upper-middle-class, able, middle-aged men.
I'd even take this a step further and say that one could follow a change in this attitude over the decades, that tracks with demographic changes in suburban communities. Inner-ring suburbs in the 60s and 70s Midwest U.S. were pretty white, and the residents probably supported malls nearby. Today those first-ring suburbs are much more diverse in many ways, the suburban-conservative white group has decamped to the third or fourth ring, and they associate the original malls in those closer-in suburbs with the people they're uncomfortable around.
The white-flight crowd abandoned downtowns in the 50s and 60s, now they're abandoning the mall.
posted by gimonca at 5:43 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd even take this a step further and say that one could follow a change in this attitude over the decades, that tracks with demographic changes in suburban communities. Inner-ring suburbs in the 60s and 70s Midwest U.S. were pretty white, and the residents probably supported malls nearby. Today those first-ring suburbs are much more diverse in many ways, the suburban-conservative white group has decamped to the third or fourth ring, and they associate the original malls in those closer-in suburbs with the people they're uncomfortable around.
The white-flight crowd abandoned downtowns in the 50s and 60s, now they're abandoning the mall.
posted by gimonca at 5:43 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think all this convinces me that space works best when you either have a commercial entity that wants to work with the community, or government that can afford to invest.
This has been something I observed here as well. Southeast Asia is definitely a mall-crazy region, usually explained as related due to the weather, and maybe so. Still, I don't lose sight that a pseudo-public space is still very much not one. But with that said, it's evident that features I'm familiar with are either seen as an impossibility or an idealistic one. And I'm not saying that as an apologist, but having to live with yet another mall opening (and then these days, mall closings), with enough economic pressure & moral inclination, malls here become their neighbourhood's Main St (I'm not even saying town - there really is a mall everywhere.) Just to use the examples that are under 25 mins of driving from where I live (seven???), in terms of features that feed back into them becoming walkable spaces:
- one of them hosts a multi-storey flea market along the concourse areas & promenades/walking paths. this has nothing but itinerant vendors & small-time sellers;
- this along with a couple of established sites set an example or expectation for pop-up weekend fairs/markets;
- this includes 'exhibitions' or conventions, something I know is dominated by hotel event spaces elsewhere but not here. My actual neighbourhood mall hosts pop-up household goods fairs, the district rhythmic gymnastics heats, MMA tournaments, and recently & infamously, an anime Con that snarled up surrounding traffic. Other malls am exploring themes as their identity, like an artisanal and craft one (one of these is where my favourite indie stationery store is located);
- The ones that thrived would not have done so without those sole proprietorship un-franchised shops making up at least half of the tenant mix, unless in the Central Business District but the ones I'm thinking of is basically a tropical-climate-friendly version of Oxford Street or Rodeo Drive;
- It's a given that the lowest floor before basement parking is a grocery/supermarket. If the area can support it, there'd be two, and the second is the fancier one;
- public services: post offices are common or an MBE (which is like a Kinko's? It takes deliveries). The especially bigger ones have will have a police station. At the post office itself, you can pay your utilities & renew your driving license;
- Shops or dept stores that sell cameras can take passport/license photos;
- One mall started employing street buskers and now it's a thing. More than one set up a baby grand, and in my part of the city, there's a Korean pianist who circulates between them. He's got fans.
- Art galleries, theatre spaces, playgrounds are abound. Some of them have either parks nearby or converted their rooftop to a hydroponic farm. Even if you aren't buying anything you can walk around;
- If they're not directly connected to a metro station, free feeder buses are now a standard service;
- For Covid season, they make a big deal about their ventilation & air quality protocols; Some provided space (esp as shops closed) to the national vaccination campaign to become vaccination centres.
The thing that gets me is that of course it's just a simulation, because for many of the more public-minded stuff, unless it's a govt service (post), it's pay for access. So all the critiques apply. But it's a city notorious for bad planning if you're not a car, and unsafe besides, with tropical thunderstorms. For a significant number of the population, it's a good enough solution.
posted by cendawanita at 7:27 AM on June 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
This has been something I observed here as well. Southeast Asia is definitely a mall-crazy region, usually explained as related due to the weather, and maybe so. Still, I don't lose sight that a pseudo-public space is still very much not one. But with that said, it's evident that features I'm familiar with are either seen as an impossibility or an idealistic one. And I'm not saying that as an apologist, but having to live with yet another mall opening (and then these days, mall closings), with enough economic pressure & moral inclination, malls here become their neighbourhood's Main St (I'm not even saying town - there really is a mall everywhere.) Just to use the examples that are under 25 mins of driving from where I live (seven???), in terms of features that feed back into them becoming walkable spaces:
- one of them hosts a multi-storey flea market along the concourse areas & promenades/walking paths. this has nothing but itinerant vendors & small-time sellers;
- this along with a couple of established sites set an example or expectation for pop-up weekend fairs/markets;
- this includes 'exhibitions' or conventions, something I know is dominated by hotel event spaces elsewhere but not here. My actual neighbourhood mall hosts pop-up household goods fairs, the district rhythmic gymnastics heats, MMA tournaments, and recently & infamously, an anime Con that snarled up surrounding traffic. Other malls am exploring themes as their identity, like an artisanal and craft one (one of these is where my favourite indie stationery store is located);
- The ones that thrived would not have done so without those sole proprietorship un-franchised shops making up at least half of the tenant mix, unless in the Central Business District but the ones I'm thinking of is basically a tropical-climate-friendly version of Oxford Street or Rodeo Drive;
- It's a given that the lowest floor before basement parking is a grocery/supermarket. If the area can support it, there'd be two, and the second is the fancier one;
- public services: post offices are common or an MBE (which is like a Kinko's? It takes deliveries). The especially bigger ones have will have a police station. At the post office itself, you can pay your utilities & renew your driving license;
- Shops or dept stores that sell cameras can take passport/license photos;
- One mall started employing street buskers and now it's a thing. More than one set up a baby grand, and in my part of the city, there's a Korean pianist who circulates between them. He's got fans.
- Art galleries, theatre spaces, playgrounds are abound. Some of them have either parks nearby or converted their rooftop to a hydroponic farm. Even if you aren't buying anything you can walk around;
- If they're not directly connected to a metro station, free feeder buses are now a standard service;
- For Covid season, they make a big deal about their ventilation & air quality protocols; Some provided space (esp as shops closed) to the national vaccination campaign to become vaccination centres.
The thing that gets me is that of course it's just a simulation, because for many of the more public-minded stuff, unless it's a govt service (post), it's pay for access. So all the critiques apply. But it's a city notorious for bad planning if you're not a car, and unsafe besides, with tropical thunderstorms. For a significant number of the population, it's a good enough solution.
posted by cendawanita at 7:27 AM on June 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
Oh I forgot! Pop-up libraries or actual branches of the state public library is being explored and if there's appetite, these may get expanded (it's usually a saving face gesture for the mall developer because they can't get a tenant, but I'll take it). Mixed-use developments are definitely the strategy for many - both office spaces and residential - but these only contribute to a lopsided real estate situation as many of these, being aspirational, aren't actually affordable.
But I forgot to also mention the bus depot as a mall service. My neighbourhood mall has a service direct to the airport. But the bigger ones have luxury liner buses to Singapore and the Highlands as well, with one of them having a depot that is actually part of the public transportation node (it services a lot of routes including outbound buses).
ETA: one mall's management is clearly sympathetic to the cause so they've set up sensory rooms for those along the autisms spectrum with one day allocated as a low-sensory stimulation day throughout the complex.
These are possibilities, it's just trying to come to terms of which part of this is an acceptable political compromise.
posted by cendawanita at 7:42 AM on June 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
But I forgot to also mention the bus depot as a mall service. My neighbourhood mall has a service direct to the airport. But the bigger ones have luxury liner buses to Singapore and the Highlands as well, with one of them having a depot that is actually part of the public transportation node (it services a lot of routes including outbound buses).
ETA: one mall's management is clearly sympathetic to the cause so they've set up sensory rooms for those along the autisms spectrum with one day allocated as a low-sensory stimulation day throughout the complex.
These are possibilities, it's just trying to come to terms of which part of this is an acceptable political compromise.
posted by cendawanita at 7:42 AM on June 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
The PATH always reminds me of one of those endless spaces you can’t get out of in a dream.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:00 AM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:00 AM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thanks, cendawanita, for sharing your experiences and widening the geographic scope of the conversation.
posted by janell at 9:27 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by janell at 9:27 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Interesting that no one has mentioned “air conditioning” in this thread yet (or perhaps I missed it), but having grown up in Georgia, where the summer heat & humidity is quite oppressive, and living now in Phoenix, where last summer we had 53 days with the temp exceeding 110 (F), the AC is a huge draw for malls.
Libraries offer an air conditioned inside space, but it’s smaller, more constrained space: you can’t really buy a snack there, or play a game, or have a loud conversation with your pals. As a teen, I really dug hanging out at the mall’s food court on Saturday, maybe after spending a few quarters at the Gold Mine game arcade. That wouldn’t have been nearly as pleasant in an open-aired, non-air-conditioned park, town green, or other space.
posted by darkstar at 9:30 AM on June 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
Libraries offer an air conditioned inside space, but it’s smaller, more constrained space: you can’t really buy a snack there, or play a game, or have a loud conversation with your pals. As a teen, I really dug hanging out at the mall’s food court on Saturday, maybe after spending a few quarters at the Gold Mine game arcade. That wouldn’t have been nearly as pleasant in an open-aired, non-air-conditioned park, town green, or other space.
posted by darkstar at 9:30 AM on June 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
To add on to warriorqueen's tour of various Toronto malls, I agree that Pacific Mall is a neat place and I actually didn't know about some of the history despite living in Markham when I was a kid (Cullen Gardens used to be there? Wow! The deputy mayor was racist? Who knew?). I think Pacific Mall is a good example of a mall that has a vibrant community and large clientele, though I haven't visited since the pandemic so I don't know how the mall has adjusted in recent years. Yes, it's car-centric, but in that area there unfortunately isn't much that doesn't require a car; the surrounding area is very suburban in nature. Once you're inside, though, Pacific Mall has a very human scale that doesn't feel alienating in the way some larger malls can, especially when traffic is lighter.
Another mall I was thinking of, though I've only been once, is East York Town Centre in Thorncliffe Park. Again, it's a mall, so it's at least somewhat car-centric, but its parking lot is roughly on par with inner suburb malls of the era (scoot forward a little in the Street View and you'll see the lot outside the grocery store, which is the largest expanse I noticed). But it's otherwise pretty tightly knit into the urban fabric; the back entrance lead to pedestrian walkways connecting the various towers in that part of Thorncliffe Park, separated only by a thin strip of parking. Inside I expected a pretty run-down mall, and in some ways it is a little behind the times in construction style, but it's also full of life and mostly populated by small businesses alongside a smattering of big brands. I don't know the neighborhood well; I was just passing through. But it felt just a bit more lived-in than the upscale suburban malls of my childhood.
posted by chrominance at 9:46 AM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Another mall I was thinking of, though I've only been once, is East York Town Centre in Thorncliffe Park. Again, it's a mall, so it's at least somewhat car-centric, but its parking lot is roughly on par with inner suburb malls of the era (scoot forward a little in the Street View and you'll see the lot outside the grocery store, which is the largest expanse I noticed). But it's otherwise pretty tightly knit into the urban fabric; the back entrance lead to pedestrian walkways connecting the various towers in that part of Thorncliffe Park, separated only by a thin strip of parking. Inside I expected a pretty run-down mall, and in some ways it is a little behind the times in construction style, but it's also full of life and mostly populated by small businesses alongside a smattering of big brands. I don't know the neighborhood well; I was just passing through. But it felt just a bit more lived-in than the upscale suburban malls of my childhood.
posted by chrominance at 9:46 AM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Interesting that no one has mentioned “air conditioning” in this thread yet (or perhaps I missed it), but having grown up in Georgia, where the summer heat & humidity is quite oppressive, and living now in Phoenix, where last summer we had 53 days with the temp exceeding 110 (F), the AC is a huge draw for malls.
In the same vein, it's a dry, warm place during wet, snowy New York winters.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:11 AM on June 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
In the same vein, it's a dry, warm place during wet, snowy New York winters.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:11 AM on June 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
Interesting that no one has mentioned “air conditioning” in this thread yet (or perhaps I missed it), but having grown up in Georgia, where the summer heat & humidity is quite oppressive, and living now in Phoenix, where last summer we had 53 days with the temp exceeding 110 (F), the AC is a huge draw for malls.
One of the main reasons my mom and grandmother were "mall walkers" and not "county rec center walkers" was because the mall was air conditioned. The county rec center, which had a flat, paved trail that went around the building and the adjacent baseball fields and basketball courts, was actually about 10 minutes closer to our house than the mall.
But since the seasons in east and south Georgia go winterspringSUUUUUUUMMMMMMEEEERRRRRfall having a place to walk where it wasn't 95F and 90% humidity by 9am helped them stay consistent with their exercise routine.
posted by ralan at 11:07 AM on June 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
One of the main reasons my mom and grandmother were "mall walkers" and not "county rec center walkers" was because the mall was air conditioned. The county rec center, which had a flat, paved trail that went around the building and the adjacent baseball fields and basketball courts, was actually about 10 minutes closer to our house than the mall.
But since the seasons in east and south Georgia go winterspringSUUUUUUUMMMMMMEEEERRRRRfall having a place to walk where it wasn't 95F and 90% humidity by 9am helped them stay consistent with their exercise routine.
posted by ralan at 11:07 AM on June 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
I mean, my point isn't "hooray for the mall, nothing can ever get better", it's just that I'd like to see things get better first before we start stripping existing infrastructure for parts.
But malls exist as they do because of a specific harmful residential-housing pattern. In a world of much greater density, you will have many, many fewer of them. In other words, I don't think you can have both.
posted by praemunire at 12:56 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
But malls exist as they do because of a specific harmful residential-housing pattern. In a world of much greater density, you will have many, many fewer of them. In other words, I don't think you can have both.
posted by praemunire at 12:56 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't think they're saying we need to maintain mall infrastructure forever, just that realistically what happens is: existing thing disappears, and is not replaced ever, or not for fully a generation.
Whereas we could instead work to increase density (a multi-decade project) and maintain this imperfect but functioning public-ish space until it simply cannot be maintained, due to far better alternatives existing.
Yeah it'd be great if we (meaning the US, as a society) could ever do anything well, or fast, or indeed at all, but past experience is not encouraging on that front.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:23 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Whereas we could instead work to increase density (a multi-decade project) and maintain this imperfect but functioning public-ish space until it simply cannot be maintained, due to far better alternatives existing.
Yeah it'd be great if we (meaning the US, as a society) could ever do anything well, or fast, or indeed at all, but past experience is not encouraging on that front.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:23 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
The perceived inability of better public options to exist alongside the malls that currently dot the US landscape only applies if we're assuming an I-Dream-of-Jeannie blink that suddenly drops dense multi-use zoning and construction upon the landscape, uniformly, everywhere. In reality you could densify and urbanize fully 95% the suburb where I grew up before you ever needed to touch the mall.
(Are they? No. They just opened up the literally 20th car dealership in a town of 70,000 people. But they could.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:28 PM on June 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
(Are they? No. They just opened up the literally 20th car dealership in a town of 70,000 people. But they could.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:28 PM on June 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
now in Phoenix, where last summer we had 53 days with the temp exceeding 110 (F), the AC is a huge draw for malls.
Even in Phoenix, the newest mall in Scottsdale or where ever is outdoors, with misters around every store.
I don't think they're saying we need to maintain mall infrastructure forever, just that realistically what happens is: existing thing disappears, and is not replaced ever, or not for fully a generation
I don't really get the comparison between public housing and malls - malls may be convenient for walking but they are commercial ventures and the cities they exist in are not dis-investing in them in the same way that public housing is being dis-invested in. If they fail, it's because the private sector didn't find them viable, which is completely different.
I also disagree that construction is that static, where nothing is replaced for at least a generation. If that's true, it's because your city is not all geared towards the pedestrian experience, and just like public housing, you have to vote in people that do care about it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 4:48 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Even in Phoenix, the newest mall in Scottsdale or where ever is outdoors, with misters around every store.
I don't think they're saying we need to maintain mall infrastructure forever, just that realistically what happens is: existing thing disappears, and is not replaced ever, or not for fully a generation
I don't really get the comparison between public housing and malls - malls may be convenient for walking but they are commercial ventures and the cities they exist in are not dis-investing in them in the same way that public housing is being dis-invested in. If they fail, it's because the private sector didn't find them viable, which is completely different.
I also disagree that construction is that static, where nothing is replaced for at least a generation. If that's true, it's because your city is not all geared towards the pedestrian experience, and just like public housing, you have to vote in people that do care about it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 4:48 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Whether it's zoning changes making more square footage available for building, I've never seen a three-storey Target or Walmart.
3 story, no, but a few 2-story Wal-Marts and many 2 story Target stores exist. Often replacing a previous mall anchor, but city Targets are often 2 story. City zoning actually limits the number of stories of power centers. It's not really a corporate limitation. NIMBY people get really pissed at taller buildings, so most cities have 2 story limits outside of very small designated areas.
posted by The_Vegetables at 4:54 PM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
3 story, no, but a few 2-story Wal-Marts and many 2 story Target stores exist. Often replacing a previous mall anchor, but city Targets are often 2 story. City zoning actually limits the number of stories of power centers. It's not really a corporate limitation. NIMBY people get really pissed at taller buildings, so most cities have 2 story limits outside of very small designated areas.
posted by The_Vegetables at 4:54 PM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I misestimated, anchor department stores are around 250,000sqft, while a Walmart Supercenter, a store model that contains a grocery store, is about 200K. But my point isn't what stores can have multiple floors (the City Target by me is much smaller overall than usual), but who could possibly move into these already-built massive retail spaces. I like the idea hinted above to convert them into stall/flea market spaces, but I don't see that happening at the dying mall in the lily white suburb in which I grew up, where there are 5 such spaces.
posted by rhizome at 5:54 PM on June 5, 2022
posted by rhizome at 5:54 PM on June 5, 2022
Fascinating thread.
I lived for a year behind Surrey Central. Serious underhoused and heavy addiction issues in the neighbourhood. Bad reputation, mostly earned especially in the streets. Lots of drug activity and open use of drugs (not as bad as DTES).
This is a planned city center so there's ample transit and municipal government and community center-type buildings around, bust most of the original buildings are what Simcity might call distressed low density industrial/ commercial. There's a coop for the underhoused behind the mall, too. And a large university satellite campus inside the mall.
It's a planned mall with a few big box anchor stores (Walmart, Bestbuy, T&T) with a mix of international brand and homegrown businesses, leaning heavily Indo-Canadian.
Lots of Indo grandfolks hung out there all the time all day. The community center is far less populated in comparison (the light there is "chic gloomy"). There are low income people, underhoused, the addicted - but for some reason they're well behaved.
I've even seen more Karen-ism elsewhere than there. I haven't seen anyone getting kicked out of there, whereas I've seen people act out and get removed from other places.
It felt like "neutral ground" or something.
But the this mall is well lit, very generous environmental control, clean, relatively quiet, and the student-ey areas are all glass so lots of natural light.
I still denigrate Surrey, but that mall was all right by me. The transit hub outside the mall is a different story.
posted by porpoise at 6:02 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I lived for a year behind Surrey Central. Serious underhoused and heavy addiction issues in the neighbourhood. Bad reputation, mostly earned especially in the streets. Lots of drug activity and open use of drugs (not as bad as DTES).
This is a planned city center so there's ample transit and municipal government and community center-type buildings around, bust most of the original buildings are what Simcity might call distressed low density industrial/ commercial. There's a coop for the underhoused behind the mall, too. And a large university satellite campus inside the mall.
It's a planned mall with a few big box anchor stores (Walmart, Bestbuy, T&T) with a mix of international brand and homegrown businesses, leaning heavily Indo-Canadian.
Lots of Indo grandfolks hung out there all the time all day. The community center is far less populated in comparison (the light there is "chic gloomy"). There are low income people, underhoused, the addicted - but for some reason they're well behaved.
I've even seen more Karen-ism elsewhere than there. I haven't seen anyone getting kicked out of there, whereas I've seen people act out and get removed from other places.
It felt like "neutral ground" or something.
But the this mall is well lit, very generous environmental control, clean, relatively quiet, and the student-ey areas are all glass so lots of natural light.
I still denigrate Surrey, but that mall was all right by me. The transit hub outside the mall is a different story.
posted by porpoise at 6:02 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
If people don't like the public housing comparison, how about when we bulldozed the SROs and "modernized" the downtowns with all those big concrete sixties/seventies plazas and office towers with no retail? Downtown Minneapolis has a number of those, and that corner of downtown was, in fact, pretty bleak when I moved here twenty years ago. The architecture is neat, I grant you, but without trees, residential space or retail, it isn't welcoming and doesn't get used. The stuff that got bulldozed was old, outdated, private stuff that catered to poor people, old people, sick people, addicted people.
SROs were pretty ghastly but getting rid of them didn't get rid of people who needed cheap lodging by the week.
You can bulldoze something a hell of a lot faster than you can elect a majority for public housing, get the funding for public housing, fight everything through zoning boards and NIMBYs, break ground and finally, at long last, start housing people. If you're working very, very, very fast, you can get something funded and built in four or five years, but a ten or fifteen year plan is more realistic.
And humans don't live at municipal speeds; five years is a long time to go without, eg, a large, basically free air conditioned space in a hot climate or a place where you can meet your little mall goth friends at the food court.
Doing something good takes so, so long and it takes so little time to smash things up.
posted by Frowner at 6:28 PM on June 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
SROs were pretty ghastly but getting rid of them didn't get rid of people who needed cheap lodging by the week.
You can bulldoze something a hell of a lot faster than you can elect a majority for public housing, get the funding for public housing, fight everything through zoning boards and NIMBYs, break ground and finally, at long last, start housing people. If you're working very, very, very fast, you can get something funded and built in four or five years, but a ten or fifteen year plan is more realistic.
And humans don't live at municipal speeds; five years is a long time to go without, eg, a large, basically free air conditioned space in a hot climate or a place where you can meet your little mall goth friends at the food court.
Doing something good takes so, so long and it takes so little time to smash things up.
posted by Frowner at 6:28 PM on June 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
"Do any cities with continental climates manage public promenades, and if so, how funded?
"Pedestrian-only shopping, dining and entertainment streets are definitely having a resurgence in many cities right now."
Yeah, re: the A/C, I think the key point about asking about a continental climate is that continental climates are fucking hot and miserably humid in the summer, and "Napoleon-invading-Moscow" cold in the winter. I like to point out to people that Chicago and Rome are on the same latitude. Rome is a lovely, relatively temperate city where you can be outdoors all year long (impressive smog aside). Chicago is a hellscape 4-6 months a year, where you're melting or freezing. Chicago's temperature range is -27*F to 106*F (-32*C to 41*C). I generally expect at least one week-long cold snap that falls to -20*F, and several that gets into the -5*F to -10*F range. And in the summer, it will be 100ish for a couple of weeks, and in the 90s for two solid months. Rome is 23*F to 96*F (-4*C to 30*C) ... (ish, because I don't have authoritative Roman weather pages bookmarked on my computer).
Chicago is a wonderful city with excellent and lively pedestrian areas ... that are utterly miserable experiences 4-6 months a year. Like, Napoleon's army all freaking DIED attempting to invade Moscow, and we think parents with infants and frail elderly people should all just go strolling? And I'm a cold-weather creature, and I went to an all-pedestrian college in the Midwest where I was hauling my ass outside in the Napoleonic cold every day all winter long, and it was fine, but it's not really strolling-for-pleasure weather. (I will not speak of July and August, when it's hotter than the Devil's taint.)
All the taxes and amenities in the world aren't going to render Chicago a place where people sit outdoors to eat in January. (Altho global warming might, but see: July and August.)
"There are a few mid-western cities that have tunnel systems which are just big malls to get around the seventy feet of snow and temps just above absolute zero in the winter, aren't there? Are those spaces privately owned? Do they get the same walker use?"
Chicago's is called the Pedway, and it's city-run. (Some of it is owned by the buildings it's under; other parts by the city.) It's only in the central business district, it's only open 7 am to 5 pm, and it's of widely varying quality. Some parts of it are pleasant and chatty thoroughfares; other parts are scary dank deserted basements with unpredictably locked egress doors. I'm happy to go down in the Pedway with a friend, but as a woman alone I would only use certain well-trafficked passageways. It's also a self-reinforcing mechanism, since many more men than women use the far-flung parts of the Pedway, so fewer women are comfortable there because ... there aren't any women there, because they don't feel safe, so only men are there, which makes it feel less-safe.
My little suburb has an excellent, walkable, transit-served downtown with a variety of businesses that has existed since this was a farm town with a train stop. Town investments over the past decade have added bike infrastructure throughout the town, with a focus on making it possible to bike to the downtown from anywhere in town. My kids and I will bike to the Subway sandwich shop, have lunch, bike over to the public park and play, grab some ice cream, and then bike to their pediatrician's appointment, all in the same square mile. (Also present: library, town hall, elementary school, junior high, public pool, bike shop, orthodontist, drug store, full-service grocery, hardware, shoe repair, commuter train, churches of a variety of types, several bars, multiple pizza places, a hotdog shop that's been there since the 1930s ...) But it's cold and fucking ICY in the winter, and there are days in the summer where it's just oppressively hot and the air quality is so bad I get an asthma attack just going outside. (Chicago gets that heat bubble effect when cool air stalls over the Lake and so hot air just sits. on. the. city. getting smoggier and hotter with no wind and constantly decreasing air quality.)
My town still has a mall, with only two anchors left (Neiman Marcus and a movie theater), but it is just lousy with mall-walkers all day every day. Older people, but also parents with strollers, and parents with toddlers. It's indoors and climate-controlled, the walkways are smooth, the bathrooms are clean, and your toddler can't GET anywhere if they run. It still has a food court, it has places to sit, there's stuff to look at. (You can theoretically shop but it's a pretty random collection of stores at this point.) They've knocked down the unachored end and are putting up apartments, so I guess we'll see what happens. I don't have a better idea, and it'll preserve a lot of the mall as semi-public space, and maybe revitalize the area, so ... I'm willing to wait and see. The mall-qua-mall is basically dead, but maybe the mall-plus-apartments is viable.
(The one thing they DO really need to do in my urban-planning opinion is rip out a bunch of the parking lot and replant with native, water-retaining grasses -- we have a major stormwater runoff problem and there are not that many cars at the mall anymore, plus it creates a miserable heat island in the summer.)
My town's replaced the mall sales tax bonanza from the 1980s and 1990s with recreational weed sales tax, btw.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:33 PM on June 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
"Pedestrian-only shopping, dining and entertainment streets are definitely having a resurgence in many cities right now."
Yeah, re: the A/C, I think the key point about asking about a continental climate is that continental climates are fucking hot and miserably humid in the summer, and "Napoleon-invading-Moscow" cold in the winter. I like to point out to people that Chicago and Rome are on the same latitude. Rome is a lovely, relatively temperate city where you can be outdoors all year long (impressive smog aside). Chicago is a hellscape 4-6 months a year, where you're melting or freezing. Chicago's temperature range is -27*F to 106*F (-32*C to 41*C). I generally expect at least one week-long cold snap that falls to -20*F, and several that gets into the -5*F to -10*F range. And in the summer, it will be 100ish for a couple of weeks, and in the 90s for two solid months. Rome is 23*F to 96*F (-4*C to 30*C) ... (ish, because I don't have authoritative Roman weather pages bookmarked on my computer).
Chicago is a wonderful city with excellent and lively pedestrian areas ... that are utterly miserable experiences 4-6 months a year. Like, Napoleon's army all freaking DIED attempting to invade Moscow, and we think parents with infants and frail elderly people should all just go strolling? And I'm a cold-weather creature, and I went to an all-pedestrian college in the Midwest where I was hauling my ass outside in the Napoleonic cold every day all winter long, and it was fine, but it's not really strolling-for-pleasure weather. (I will not speak of July and August, when it's hotter than the Devil's taint.)
All the taxes and amenities in the world aren't going to render Chicago a place where people sit outdoors to eat in January. (Altho global warming might, but see: July and August.)
"There are a few mid-western cities that have tunnel systems which are just big malls to get around the seventy feet of snow and temps just above absolute zero in the winter, aren't there? Are those spaces privately owned? Do they get the same walker use?"
Chicago's is called the Pedway, and it's city-run. (Some of it is owned by the buildings it's under; other parts by the city.) It's only in the central business district, it's only open 7 am to 5 pm, and it's of widely varying quality. Some parts of it are pleasant and chatty thoroughfares; other parts are scary dank deserted basements with unpredictably locked egress doors. I'm happy to go down in the Pedway with a friend, but as a woman alone I would only use certain well-trafficked passageways. It's also a self-reinforcing mechanism, since many more men than women use the far-flung parts of the Pedway, so fewer women are comfortable there because ... there aren't any women there, because they don't feel safe, so only men are there, which makes it feel less-safe.
My little suburb has an excellent, walkable, transit-served downtown with a variety of businesses that has existed since this was a farm town with a train stop. Town investments over the past decade have added bike infrastructure throughout the town, with a focus on making it possible to bike to the downtown from anywhere in town. My kids and I will bike to the Subway sandwich shop, have lunch, bike over to the public park and play, grab some ice cream, and then bike to their pediatrician's appointment, all in the same square mile. (Also present: library, town hall, elementary school, junior high, public pool, bike shop, orthodontist, drug store, full-service grocery, hardware, shoe repair, commuter train, churches of a variety of types, several bars, multiple pizza places, a hotdog shop that's been there since the 1930s ...) But it's cold and fucking ICY in the winter, and there are days in the summer where it's just oppressively hot and the air quality is so bad I get an asthma attack just going outside. (Chicago gets that heat bubble effect when cool air stalls over the Lake and so hot air just sits. on. the. city. getting smoggier and hotter with no wind and constantly decreasing air quality.)
My town still has a mall, with only two anchors left (Neiman Marcus and a movie theater), but it is just lousy with mall-walkers all day every day. Older people, but also parents with strollers, and parents with toddlers. It's indoors and climate-controlled, the walkways are smooth, the bathrooms are clean, and your toddler can't GET anywhere if they run. It still has a food court, it has places to sit, there's stuff to look at. (You can theoretically shop but it's a pretty random collection of stores at this point.) They've knocked down the unachored end and are putting up apartments, so I guess we'll see what happens. I don't have a better idea, and it'll preserve a lot of the mall as semi-public space, and maybe revitalize the area, so ... I'm willing to wait and see. The mall-qua-mall is basically dead, but maybe the mall-plus-apartments is viable.
(The one thing they DO really need to do in my urban-planning opinion is rip out a bunch of the parking lot and replant with native, water-retaining grasses -- we have a major stormwater runoff problem and there are not that many cars at the mall anymore, plus it creates a miserable heat island in the summer.)
My town's replaced the mall sales tax bonanza from the 1980s and 1990s with recreational weed sales tax, btw.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:33 PM on June 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
There is nothing in itself wrong with covered shopping spaces, a few people above have mentioned the arcades, passages and gallerias of the nineteenth century, which are all charming. But they are all integrated in cities where people live and work, not isolated on a huge parking lot where you have to be able to drive to get there. Also the old ones were also beautifully designed, but that is a bigger issue with twentieth century architecture.
There is a model which is sometimes seen in urban contexts, where there are condos and a private green courtyard on the top of a mall, (and the parking is below the mall in a garage) and I have seen it once in a suburb, where it worked very well. I think the most of the condo-dwellers were seniors who were tired of the maintenance of their houses, but still wanted to live near friends and family. There is still the problem of the interface between the mall and the surroundings. We need better design for that.
posted by mumimor at 5:52 AM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
There is a model which is sometimes seen in urban contexts, where there are condos and a private green courtyard on the top of a mall, (and the parking is below the mall in a garage) and I have seen it once in a suburb, where it worked very well. I think the most of the condo-dwellers were seniors who were tired of the maintenance of their houses, but still wanted to live near friends and family. There is still the problem of the interface between the mall and the surroundings. We need better design for that.
posted by mumimor at 5:52 AM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
And humans don't live at municipal speeds; five years is a long time to go without, eg, a large, basically free air conditioned space in a hot climate or a place where you can meet your little mall goth friends at the food court.
Have you never lived near a failing mall? They sit for like 10-15 years in the state where goth kids stopped going, where a half-dozen mall walkers are the only people before 12:00noon, where the afternoon traffic is a few moms who are tired of McDonalds (if there is a play area) where the shop keepers smoke inside the stores because no-one comes. You can sit and watch them decay in real time.
*IF there is a sizable under-retail supported ethnic concentration nearby then maybe they will give some space to flea markets or local shops, but that's a big IF.
Nobody is bulldozing a successful mall. Even with SROs, cities passed laws against them, then fixing them became illegal, then the bulldozed them after they fell into extreme disrepair. Nobody is making malls illegal. They generally get subsidies.
Also, I've said this before, but the Great Depression caused a serious amount of downtown businesses to be bulldozed for parking. I don't have the numbers for Minnesota but Chicago lost like 15% of their buildings and Los Angeles like 25%. The 1970s was people responding to outcomes from 1930-1940 with the rise of cars and parking. I think that design period sucks, but if you can't accept they were dealing with legitimate economic trauma and made some crazy decisions, I don't know what to tell you.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:53 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Have you never lived near a failing mall? They sit for like 10-15 years in the state where goth kids stopped going, where a half-dozen mall walkers are the only people before 12:00noon, where the afternoon traffic is a few moms who are tired of McDonalds (if there is a play area) where the shop keepers smoke inside the stores because no-one comes. You can sit and watch them decay in real time.
*IF there is a sizable under-retail supported ethnic concentration nearby then maybe they will give some space to flea markets or local shops, but that's a big IF.
Nobody is bulldozing a successful mall. Even with SROs, cities passed laws against them, then fixing them became illegal, then the bulldozed them after they fell into extreme disrepair. Nobody is making malls illegal. They generally get subsidies.
Also, I've said this before, but the Great Depression caused a serious amount of downtown businesses to be bulldozed for parking. I don't have the numbers for Minnesota but Chicago lost like 15% of their buildings and Los Angeles like 25%. The 1970s was people responding to outcomes from 1930-1940 with the rise of cars and parking. I think that design period sucks, but if you can't accept they were dealing with legitimate economic trauma and made some crazy decisions, I don't know what to tell you.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:53 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
There is a model which is sometimes seen in urban contexts, where there are condos and a private green courtyard on the top of a mall, (and the parking is below the mall in a garage) and I have seen it once in a suburb, where it worked very well.
I can tell you that this model is practically template here. One negative outcome I've seen is when it displaces the earlier community and raises up the overall real estate prices. But the examples where this worked out is usually a combination of decent planning and economic projection both on the part of the developer as well as the local government. For those, their aspirational mixed development complex is in good integration with surrounding sub/urban area because the economic projection at that micro level* of the neighbourhood actually meets the target. But when it's dead, that empty space is worth than useless because there's not even a developer to listlessly manage the building and no one really can move in (stalls or hawkers etc) because it's still private property and one that once unmanaged is incredibly unsafe and uncomfortable (no air-conditioning or water or electricity or airflow). But when it's well-integrated, even the parking space can serve as a net benefit to the community it's located in. Because we're a car society but not that much land used for either public or private parking compared to the American planning logic, a good mall parking (that's usually well-lit, with automated updates to available parking bays and due to a rape/assault case 2 decades ago collectively instituted their own parking security patrols and designated sections for women drivers especially solo women or single parents) that is open to anyone unlike a residential complex has perversely provided a positive benefit in sucking up the rogue parking energy, so much so that the bad apples tend to be those who swear they're only gone for a minute.
But the displacement is real though because they're still not offering units of equivalent value to previous prices of the demolished units even with the mathematical increase in housing per sq ft so there's still much property overhang and people creep further out, not upwards.
(*and it is micro as more malls crop up meaning a mall's radius of economic importance immediately shrinks to the boundaries where it bumps to another mall's sphere - and where that boundary is is usually an interesting case study of urban planning because this is when human pattern of usage will actually tell you where do the residents in these areas actually locate themselves. What it means for the malls is that what keeps them afloat on a daily basis is literally whatever in the 2-3km radius of streets with some of the more outlying people coming for actually unique attractions - some shops; that week's expo/convention)
Regardless though, it seems like based on the comments Canadian malls and Asian malls seem to be on the same mailing list when it comes to possible amenities so honestly not sure why the general recommendations the CDC set out in TFA (which have been executed elsewhere at least as I've understood my examples) are considered nonstarters in the US.
posted by cendawanita at 8:50 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I can tell you that this model is practically template here. One negative outcome I've seen is when it displaces the earlier community and raises up the overall real estate prices. But the examples where this worked out is usually a combination of decent planning and economic projection both on the part of the developer as well as the local government. For those, their aspirational mixed development complex is in good integration with surrounding sub/urban area because the economic projection at that micro level* of the neighbourhood actually meets the target. But when it's dead, that empty space is worth than useless because there's not even a developer to listlessly manage the building and no one really can move in (stalls or hawkers etc) because it's still private property and one that once unmanaged is incredibly unsafe and uncomfortable (no air-conditioning or water or electricity or airflow). But when it's well-integrated, even the parking space can serve as a net benefit to the community it's located in. Because we're a car society but not that much land used for either public or private parking compared to the American planning logic, a good mall parking (that's usually well-lit, with automated updates to available parking bays and due to a rape/assault case 2 decades ago collectively instituted their own parking security patrols and designated sections for women drivers especially solo women or single parents) that is open to anyone unlike a residential complex has perversely provided a positive benefit in sucking up the rogue parking energy, so much so that the bad apples tend to be those who swear they're only gone for a minute.
But the displacement is real though because they're still not offering units of equivalent value to previous prices of the demolished units even with the mathematical increase in housing per sq ft so there's still much property overhang and people creep further out, not upwards.
(*and it is micro as more malls crop up meaning a mall's radius of economic importance immediately shrinks to the boundaries where it bumps to another mall's sphere - and where that boundary is is usually an interesting case study of urban planning because this is when human pattern of usage will actually tell you where do the residents in these areas actually locate themselves. What it means for the malls is that what keeps them afloat on a daily basis is literally whatever in the 2-3km radius of streets with some of the more outlying people coming for actually unique attractions - some shops; that week's expo/convention)
Regardless though, it seems like based on the comments Canadian malls and Asian malls seem to be on the same mailing list when it comes to possible amenities so honestly not sure why the general recommendations the CDC set out in TFA (which have been executed elsewhere at least as I've understood my examples) are considered nonstarters in the US.
posted by cendawanita at 8:50 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
We’ve Got to Stop Requiring Parking Everywhere [archive.today]
Because pavement sucks up ambient heat, parking also creates enormous urban “heat islands” that intensify the effects of global warming.
posted by bendy at 9:56 PM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Because pavement sucks up ambient heat, parking also creates enormous urban “heat islands” that intensify the effects of global warming.
posted by bendy at 9:56 PM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'll tell you why malls suck and how they are like Twitter. Musk, of late, has been trying to call Twitter a virtual "town square". I'd posit that this is precisely the role that the shopping mall has served for 40-50 years. Where I live, the mall completely obliterated our main streets. (traditional city street shopping) All shops closed and moved to the local mall in the 70s. Yes, nice climate control in all seasons. Yes, ample and free (not metered) parking. Yes, everything in one place.
But there's one BIG difference… NO PROTEST PERMITTED WHATSOEVER. Because it's a private business/property. I wonder what Elon Musk would think if someone stormed through a local mall protesting virtually anything at all. We know what would happen: you'd be removed post haste and quite possibly by the police even. On Main St., however, (the 'real' town square) you can likely protest all you want, because it's public property.
Relatedly, Trump wants your private business to be his personal 'town square'. It's no different in my estimation to Trump demanding to put a sign on your lawn.
posted by readyfreddy at 11:19 PM on June 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
But there's one BIG difference… NO PROTEST PERMITTED WHATSOEVER. Because it's a private business/property. I wonder what Elon Musk would think if someone stormed through a local mall protesting virtually anything at all. We know what would happen: you'd be removed post haste and quite possibly by the police even. On Main St., however, (the 'real' town square) you can likely protest all you want, because it's public property.
Relatedly, Trump wants your private business to be his personal 'town square'. It's no different in my estimation to Trump demanding to put a sign on your lawn.
posted by readyfreddy at 11:19 PM on June 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Cars are also mobility aids, y'all. Not everyone can use a bicycle or walk. In general it would be great to have more walkability, but not at the expense of people who use mobility aids. When we're looking at design, we need to consider conflicting access needs.
I saw a neat picture on tumblr recently that discussed disabilities/accommodations under the headings of permanent, temporary, and situational, which kind of blew my mind. I'll try to remember to link it back here next time I see it. A person who temporarily may require a car as a mobility aid would be a pregnant person. A person who situationally may require a car as an aid would be me, anytime the temperature is above 72F, because I need the a/c and will overheat if I walk or exercise for longer than 10 minutes.
my two c on malls and accessibility...
God, yes, a/c. Due to medication and weight gain I'm just miserable with summertime weather unless I've got a fan blowing at me directly. :( Between that and continuing COVID precautions, I won't be doing much this summer.
Also can't overstate the bathrooms, clean, maintained restrooms. Nice public restrooms are basically extinct in the US, and spotty on safety for non-gender-conforming folks, but so so SO important.
Consider:
* parent needs to change a child (or their grown charge). I know some people are okay with changing a baby in public, but it's important to be able to wash your hands! and have a spot to throw out the diaper.
* maybe you inject insulin and need a private spot to do that
* you are pregnant with america's next top tap dancer and it's showtime
* Managing your menstruation situation
* BATHROOM EMERGENCIES HAPPEN TO EVERYONE, Y'ALL, and an important part of your dignity is getting (and staying) clean! Dignity matters!!
Sensorily, a lot of malls are hell. But they don't have to be.
posted by snerson at 2:00 PM on June 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I saw a neat picture on tumblr recently that discussed disabilities/accommodations under the headings of permanent, temporary, and situational, which kind of blew my mind. I'll try to remember to link it back here next time I see it. A person who temporarily may require a car as a mobility aid would be a pregnant person. A person who situationally may require a car as an aid would be me, anytime the temperature is above 72F, because I need the a/c and will overheat if I walk or exercise for longer than 10 minutes.
my two c on malls and accessibility...
God, yes, a/c. Due to medication and weight gain I'm just miserable with summertime weather unless I've got a fan blowing at me directly. :( Between that and continuing COVID precautions, I won't be doing much this summer.
Also can't overstate the bathrooms, clean, maintained restrooms. Nice public restrooms are basically extinct in the US, and spotty on safety for non-gender-conforming folks, but so so SO important.
Consider:
* parent needs to change a child (or their grown charge). I know some people are okay with changing a baby in public, but it's important to be able to wash your hands! and have a spot to throw out the diaper.
* maybe you inject insulin and need a private spot to do that
* you are pregnant with america's next top tap dancer and it's showtime
* Managing your menstruation situation
* BATHROOM EMERGENCIES HAPPEN TO EVERYONE, Y'ALL, and an important part of your dignity is getting (and staying) clean! Dignity matters!!
Sensorily, a lot of malls are hell. But they don't have to be.
posted by snerson at 2:00 PM on June 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
"Cars are also mobility aids, y'all. Not everyone can use a bicycle or walk. In general it would be great to have more walkability, but not at the expense of people who use mobility aids."
Literally nobody saying "remove excess parking" is ever saying "remove all parking." When my town decided to remove a bunch of downtown parking starting 10-15 years ago, everyone was warning about carmageddon in the downtown and you'd never been able to find a spot. They went ahead anyway, pulled out a bunch of the parking and put in a bunch more pedestrian and bicycle infrastructure.
Carmageddon never materialized. The downtown got livelier and more pleasant (removing parking and putting in more trees has made a significant difference in the downtown heat island, and also in how fast it cools off after sunset, which means more people sitting out in the evenings). It turns out that with better pedestrian and bike infrastructure ... a lot more people walk and bike. So while the total amount of parking spots has been reduced, the percentage of them in use at any given time is about the same as it was when we had All The Parking. I've literally never had trouble finding a spot, with one exception.
And that exception is, town festivals in our downtown park and square, when the whole town packs into the downtown. So what they do is, convert the entirety of the closest lot to handicapped parking for the festival, and designate one of the commuter train lots as a "golf cart" lot, and they pay a couple guys from the park district overtime to ferry people back and forth to the golf cart lot. A lot more people walk and bike to the festivals now, and other people just park a couple blocks further away, no big deal. But for people for whom it IS a big deal, there's an entire lot just for people with handicapped parking permits AND an entire lot for people who don't have a permit but for whatever reason can't or don't want to walk quite that far. Lot of older people who don't have hangtags, lot of parents with babies and toddlers, but also just like a group of high school students and one of them is still recovering from knee surgery.
It made literally no sense to have enough parking for THE ENTIRE TOWN in our downtown for the three times a year we have a giant festival, sitting there empty the rest of the year requiring upkeep and creating heat and stormwater runoff. There were plenty ways to remove excess parking while still assuring people who needed parking would have it and actually improving access overall.
Our local mall has five thousand parking spots, still taking up exactly the same amount of space for parking as in the late 80s when the mall was at its peak and those spots would be 80% full on weekends. Now when a huge blockbuster movie opens, there might be 500 cars in the lot. The lot is 10% full at peak utilization. On an average day, I'd say there are fewer than 200 cars in the lot (I get my mammograms at the mall. It is -- I'm not making this up -- right above the monogram place, resulting in what I can only imagine is hilarious confusion when people are on the wrong floor). But that's not just 4500 cost-free parking spots -- that's 4500 parking spots that are creating such an intense heat island that in the summer some older people can't walk from the handicapped spots to the mall itself because the heat gets so overpowering and have to give up mallwalking in the summer. That 4500 spots contributing to global warming. That's 4500 spots contributing to our massive, expensive, and increasingly disruptive stormwater runoff problem that floods local homes, businesses, and roads several times a year. If they even removed half of the lot, it would still be more parking than that mall is ever going to need again, and it would make a dent in the local environmental problems.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:04 PM on June 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Literally nobody saying "remove excess parking" is ever saying "remove all parking." When my town decided to remove a bunch of downtown parking starting 10-15 years ago, everyone was warning about carmageddon in the downtown and you'd never been able to find a spot. They went ahead anyway, pulled out a bunch of the parking and put in a bunch more pedestrian and bicycle infrastructure.
Carmageddon never materialized. The downtown got livelier and more pleasant (removing parking and putting in more trees has made a significant difference in the downtown heat island, and also in how fast it cools off after sunset, which means more people sitting out in the evenings). It turns out that with better pedestrian and bike infrastructure ... a lot more people walk and bike. So while the total amount of parking spots has been reduced, the percentage of them in use at any given time is about the same as it was when we had All The Parking. I've literally never had trouble finding a spot, with one exception.
And that exception is, town festivals in our downtown park and square, when the whole town packs into the downtown. So what they do is, convert the entirety of the closest lot to handicapped parking for the festival, and designate one of the commuter train lots as a "golf cart" lot, and they pay a couple guys from the park district overtime to ferry people back and forth to the golf cart lot. A lot more people walk and bike to the festivals now, and other people just park a couple blocks further away, no big deal. But for people for whom it IS a big deal, there's an entire lot just for people with handicapped parking permits AND an entire lot for people who don't have a permit but for whatever reason can't or don't want to walk quite that far. Lot of older people who don't have hangtags, lot of parents with babies and toddlers, but also just like a group of high school students and one of them is still recovering from knee surgery.
It made literally no sense to have enough parking for THE ENTIRE TOWN in our downtown for the three times a year we have a giant festival, sitting there empty the rest of the year requiring upkeep and creating heat and stormwater runoff. There were plenty ways to remove excess parking while still assuring people who needed parking would have it and actually improving access overall.
Our local mall has five thousand parking spots, still taking up exactly the same amount of space for parking as in the late 80s when the mall was at its peak and those spots would be 80% full on weekends. Now when a huge blockbuster movie opens, there might be 500 cars in the lot. The lot is 10% full at peak utilization. On an average day, I'd say there are fewer than 200 cars in the lot (I get my mammograms at the mall. It is -- I'm not making this up -- right above the monogram place, resulting in what I can only imagine is hilarious confusion when people are on the wrong floor). But that's not just 4500 cost-free parking spots -- that's 4500 parking spots that are creating such an intense heat island that in the summer some older people can't walk from the handicapped spots to the mall itself because the heat gets so overpowering and have to give up mallwalking in the summer. That 4500 spots contributing to global warming. That's 4500 spots contributing to our massive, expensive, and increasingly disruptive stormwater runoff problem that floods local homes, businesses, and roads several times a year. If they even removed half of the lot, it would still be more parking than that mall is ever going to need again, and it would make a dent in the local environmental problems.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:04 PM on June 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Okay. I'm really at a loss here...
Literally nobody saying "remove excess parking" is ever saying "remove all parking."
I'm not even claiming that anyone saying "remove all parking." I'm saying that conflicting access needs should be considered in design.
I understand your point that perhaps the disabled community has been used as a prop in maintaining cars as a focal point in design. But perhaps, my comment in which I discuss my own access needs, and try out a new analysis tool for disability in context, can be taken in better faith than an op-ed that waves a cardboard cutout of a person in a wheelchair and wails about parking right next to an ad for the tristate Toyota dealership.
Like. I would love to live somewhere walkable. I would love for us to live in places that are designed more around people. What I'm trying to get across is that places that are designed around people also need to be designed around their access needs, and some of those needs will need to be addressed with cars, for better or for worse. I like your descriptions of festivals, and in fact I've volunteered at events that use similar tactics (ticketed/valeted bike parking). I've driven golf carts of elders to and from venues! It's a lot of fun!! lmao. I know exactly what you're talking about Eyebrows. I just think the principle of "access needs" is a better bet, in the long haul, than "all cars get fucked."
Especially since accessibility wasn't mentioned at all in the NYT piece linked upthread. This part in particular seems red flag-y:
It would allow developers to skirt parking rules under certain conditions, including if they choose to build a certain number of affordable housing units in their projects.
Like, you know what has a significant overlap? People who need affordable housing and people who use mobility aids. I'm just tired of seeing the disabled community being steamrolled in pursuit of a better (x). Centering the idea of "access needs" matters.
Anyway, Ahmad Khani, thanks for this fpp! I'm 9th in line for it at the library and really excited to dig in. :)
posted by snerson at 6:21 AM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Literally nobody saying "remove excess parking" is ever saying "remove all parking."
I'm not even claiming that anyone saying "remove all parking." I'm saying that conflicting access needs should be considered in design.
I understand your point that perhaps the disabled community has been used as a prop in maintaining cars as a focal point in design. But perhaps, my comment in which I discuss my own access needs, and try out a new analysis tool for disability in context, can be taken in better faith than an op-ed that waves a cardboard cutout of a person in a wheelchair and wails about parking right next to an ad for the tristate Toyota dealership.
Like. I would love to live somewhere walkable. I would love for us to live in places that are designed more around people. What I'm trying to get across is that places that are designed around people also need to be designed around their access needs, and some of those needs will need to be addressed with cars, for better or for worse. I like your descriptions of festivals, and in fact I've volunteered at events that use similar tactics (ticketed/valeted bike parking). I've driven golf carts of elders to and from venues! It's a lot of fun!! lmao. I know exactly what you're talking about Eyebrows. I just think the principle of "access needs" is a better bet, in the long haul, than "all cars get fucked."
Especially since accessibility wasn't mentioned at all in the NYT piece linked upthread. This part in particular seems red flag-y:
It would allow developers to skirt parking rules under certain conditions, including if they choose to build a certain number of affordable housing units in their projects.
Like, you know what has a significant overlap? People who need affordable housing and people who use mobility aids. I'm just tired of seeing the disabled community being steamrolled in pursuit of a better (x). Centering the idea of "access needs" matters.
Anyway, Ahmad Khani, thanks for this fpp! I'm 9th in line for it at the library and really excited to dig in. :)
posted by snerson at 6:21 AM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by signal at 12:32 PM on June 4, 2022 [16 favorites]