Brittney Griner Pleads Guilty
July 7, 2022 8:41 AM Subscribe
Four and a half months after being detained in Russia, WNBA star Brittney Griner has pled guilty to drug charges, admitting that she had vape cartridges containing hashish oil and saying "I did not have any intention on breaking Russian law." Griner faces up to 10 years in prison.
Oof. I don't like this. :-/ Not that I've liked any part of this...
posted by obfuscation at 9:09 AM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by obfuscation at 9:09 AM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am very frightened for her.
posted by virago at 9:12 AM on July 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by virago at 9:12 AM on July 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Seems that Putin is looking for ways to affect the West via sports? Which seems counterproductive from my cultural POV, but apparently not his?
There are some speculations floating around about Russia restricting movement of star NHL players based on some well known loopholes exempting them from mandatory military service. (I can find a lot of unconfirmed reports from reliable sports sites (espn, sports illustrated, the athletic), but hesitate to post speculation). The key NHL star whose location is currently unknown but thought to be restricted to Russia is Kiril Kaprizov.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:29 AM on July 7, 2022
There are some speculations floating around about Russia restricting movement of star NHL players based on some well known loopholes exempting them from mandatory military service. (I can find a lot of unconfirmed reports from reliable sports sites (espn, sports illustrated, the athletic), but hesitate to post speculation). The key NHL star whose location is currently unknown but thought to be restricted to Russia is Kiril Kaprizov.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:29 AM on July 7, 2022
If Biden were able to pull her out of there, would he? Has he done the same for Americans rotting in scary American prisons for selling a joint to a coworker? I want to hope he will, but shit. What a terrifying situation she's in.
posted by heyho at 9:31 AM on July 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by heyho at 9:31 AM on July 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm terrified for her, but it does seem likely that the plea is part of some larger arrangement. What a nightmare for her and her family.
posted by praemunire at 9:35 AM on July 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:35 AM on July 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
I have no direct knowledge of Brittney's situation, but it appears to me that this guilty plea is a prelude to some deal. Maybe, they sentence her to time served plus a few weeks and then release her? The Russians, in the West's eyes, could use some good PR. Or, Brittney was advised that it is better in terms of punishment to plead guilty than to get convicted at trial. Brittney is clearly under a lot of stress.
A problem now is that the families of other political prisoners or just prisoners with an american passport are upset that Brittney Griner is getting more attention and effort because of the public outcry and because of her celebrity status.
It is a real mess. She is a political football being kicked around.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:45 AM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
A problem now is that the families of other political prisoners or just prisoners with an american passport are upset that Brittney Griner is getting more attention and effort because of the public outcry and because of her celebrity status.
It is a real mess. She is a political football being kicked around.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:45 AM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
related: years after the fact, i had the pleasure of sharing a long 1:1 car ride with Bobby Goodman, the shot-down navy pilot who got a negotiated release from lebanon. rev jesse jackson had to do it. reagan/admin wouldn't touch it with a ten ft pole.
i don't expect the biden admin to do shit about griner either :-(
posted by j_curiouser at 9:46 AM on July 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
i don't expect the biden admin to do shit about griner either :-(
posted by j_curiouser at 9:46 AM on July 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
Once again, BiPOC will always be affected the worst by cannabis use/possession, whether it's legal or not. I'll put it out there: if this was a white basketball player, they'd have already been on a flight home.
posted by Kitteh at 10:13 AM on July 7, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 10:13 AM on July 7, 2022 [25 favorites]
Frustrating to think how different this would be playing out if it was, say, Steph Curry.
posted by gottabefunky at 10:15 AM on July 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 10:15 AM on July 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
If you want more personal detail on this story, TheGrio has been doing original reporting on Griner in depth. Most recently: Cherelle Griner, wife of Brittney Griner, did not watch WNBA star’s trial to protect her mental health. They don't have a story yet about the news of the guilty plea.
posted by Nelson at 10:19 AM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:19 AM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I read stories of her family and teammates and Al Sharpton etc etc BEGGING Biden to do something it. It breaks my heart. I'm so scared for her.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 10:43 AM on July 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by wellifyouinsist at 10:43 AM on July 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm hoping that Biden is doing something in the background but it sure feels like it is going to take a third party.
posted by craniac at 11:26 AM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by craniac at 11:26 AM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Paul McCartney was incredibly lucky, being sprung after only 9 days, when trying to carry almost a half-pound of weed into Japan in 1980. He's sadder but wiser now, to be sure. I guess a lot of Brittney's supporters think that the stuff was planted, or imagine that her excuse that she didn't 'intend' to smuggle cannabis into Russia carries any weight at all? SMH, I don't believe there's anything President Joe can or should do, in this situation.
posted by Rash at 11:44 AM on July 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Rash at 11:44 AM on July 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Autostraddle has been doing good reporting on this heartbreaking story, they have a bit more context, including that it was reported she would plead guilty a week ago.
posted by ellieBOA at 11:46 AM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ellieBOA at 11:46 AM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Rash, please consider that you’re talking about an LGBT woman in a country that is hostile to LGBT people.
posted by ellieBOA at 11:48 AM on July 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 11:48 AM on July 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
I don't believe there's anything President Joe can or should do, in this situation.
Trading her for a Russian arms trafficker has been floated and "Forbes reported in May that negotiations for a prisoner swap were underway."
Any such negotiations would necessarily be done completely out of sight, and therefore we simply wouldn't know what has been happening, but: "Sources said the guilty plea to charges of drug possession and smuggling was a strategy to help facilitate a prisoner swap that could bring Griner home"
posted by BungaDunga at 11:48 AM on July 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
Trading her for a Russian arms trafficker has been floated and "Forbes reported in May that negotiations for a prisoner swap were underway."
Any such negotiations would necessarily be done completely out of sight, and therefore we simply wouldn't know what has been happening, but: "Sources said the guilty plea to charges of drug possession and smuggling was a strategy to help facilitate a prisoner swap that could bring Griner home"
posted by BungaDunga at 11:48 AM on July 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
I guess a lot of Brittney's supporters think that the stuff was planted, or imagine that her excuse that she didn't 'intend' to smuggle cannabis into Russia carries any weight at all?
There's no reason to believe that Griner actually had a marijuana product with her. The only evidence for that is the Russian government saying so. Reminder: the Russian state regularly imprisons political opponents on invented charges. They also frame and sometimes assassinate journalists.
In the US legal system I'd consider a guilty plea to be either evidence of actual guilt or a plea bargain to escape worse treatment by the American judicial system. But in the context of this arrest in Russia of a high profile American celebrity during an international crisis? Of course not, the guilty plea is just evidence of how bad Griner's situation is.
posted by Nelson at 11:52 AM on July 7, 2022 [17 favorites]
There's no reason to believe that Griner actually had a marijuana product with her. The only evidence for that is the Russian government saying so. Reminder: the Russian state regularly imprisons political opponents on invented charges. They also frame and sometimes assassinate journalists.
In the US legal system I'd consider a guilty plea to be either evidence of actual guilt or a plea bargain to escape worse treatment by the American judicial system. But in the context of this arrest in Russia of a high profile American celebrity during an international crisis? Of course not, the guilty plea is just evidence of how bad Griner's situation is.
posted by Nelson at 11:52 AM on July 7, 2022 [17 favorites]
But in the context of this arrest in Russia of a high profile American celebrity during an international crisis?
She was arrested some weeks before the invasion. It's undoubtedly now thoroughly entangled in politics, but I think the odds are actually fairly good she indeed had a vape pen with her at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if there were local sports politics involved, mind you, that resulted in her not having an immunity that she had assumed from previous experience.
posted by tavella at 12:23 PM on July 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
She was arrested some weeks before the invasion. It's undoubtedly now thoroughly entangled in politics, but I think the odds are actually fairly good she indeed had a vape pen with her at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if there were local sports politics involved, mind you, that resulted in her not having an immunity that she had assumed from previous experience.
posted by tavella at 12:23 PM on July 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Why would you "think the odds are actually fairly good she indeed had a vape pen"?
posted by Nelson at 12:37 PM on July 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 12:37 PM on July 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'll bet Russia asked for a lot. Given Russia at a war in Ukraine and the US supporting Ukraine, it's hard to guess Biden's thinking. I wonder if she actually had hashish oil. This really sucks.
posted by theora55 at 12:44 PM on July 7, 2022
posted by theora55 at 12:44 PM on July 7, 2022
She was arrested some weeks before the invasion. It's undoubtedly now thoroughly entangled in politics, but I think the odds are actually fairly good she indeed had a vape pen with her at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if there were local sports politics involved, mind you, that resulted in her not having an immunity that she had assumed from previous experience.
How many weeks were there between February 17 (arrest) and February 24 (invasion) this year? Oh, 'some'. And, even though their initial performance suggested that the Russians woke up on the 24th and decided over coffee to invade Ukraine, they were clearly - as documented contemporaneously - planning the invasion for actual full weeks and months in advance.
Fundamentally, we don't know the truth or facts about the case, because Putin's Russia - particularly in relationships with the West - is not about the truth or facts of the case in any way, shape or form.
Frustrating to think how different this would be playing out if it was, say, Steph Curry.
The reason it isn't and couldn't be, of course, is because WNBA players are underpaid and have to resort to working in overseas leagues in the offseason to make a decent living; it's not like Griner had a deep affection for the city of Yekaterinburg (or earlier in her career Zhejiang province) and just happened to be offered a basketball job while in town.
posted by Superilla at 1:00 PM on July 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
How many weeks were there between February 17 (arrest) and February 24 (invasion) this year? Oh, 'some'. And, even though their initial performance suggested that the Russians woke up on the 24th and decided over coffee to invade Ukraine, they were clearly - as documented contemporaneously - planning the invasion for actual full weeks and months in advance.
Fundamentally, we don't know the truth or facts about the case, because Putin's Russia - particularly in relationships with the West - is not about the truth or facts of the case in any way, shape or form.
Frustrating to think how different this would be playing out if it was, say, Steph Curry.
The reason it isn't and couldn't be, of course, is because WNBA players are underpaid and have to resort to working in overseas leagues in the offseason to make a decent living; it's not like Griner had a deep affection for the city of Yekaterinburg (or earlier in her career Zhejiang province) and just happened to be offered a basketball job while in town.
posted by Superilla at 1:00 PM on July 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
"Why would you "think the odds are actually fairly good she indeed had a vape pen"?"
From the Black Wall Street Times: " . . . she was packing in haste and didn’t mean to include a cannabis vape pen in her luggage . . . "
From the Wall Street Journal, "Russia’s Interfax news agency reported Ms. Griner as saying that “what happened” was that she had “packed in a hurry.”
posted by ITravelMontana at 1:01 PM on July 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
From the Black Wall Street Times: " . . . she was packing in haste and didn’t mean to include a cannabis vape pen in her luggage . . . "
From the Wall Street Journal, "Russia’s Interfax news agency reported Ms. Griner as saying that “what happened” was that she had “packed in a hurry.”
posted by ITravelMontana at 1:01 PM on July 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
The quotes you post from the Black Wall Street Times article and the WSJ article are both quoting her guilty plea. As I explained above the guilty plea should not be construed as actual evidence of guilt. She is a wrongfully detained person in a country famous for fabricating charges for political purposes. She is alone and in daily danger.
Look, I'll say the quiet part out loud because I thought it myself at first. When I first read the news of Griner's arrest my first thought was "boy that was dumb of her to pack a vape pen". It took me a few days to realize that there was no evidence of an actual vape pen other than what the Russian government was saying. And that perhaps I was too quick to believe their charges because she was black, and a basketball player, and queer. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but then that's how pernicious racism and homophobia works.
Sure it's possible she packed a vape pen by accident or on purpose. I think it's not very likely given the dangers of international travel and the extra caution that people in threatened minorities take when traveling to oppressive, racist, homophobic countries like Russia. But what I really hate is how so much of the discussion is framed as "why did she do this?" instead of "did Russia fabricate this, too?"
posted by Nelson at 1:19 PM on July 7, 2022 [35 favorites]
Look, I'll say the quiet part out loud because I thought it myself at first. When I first read the news of Griner's arrest my first thought was "boy that was dumb of her to pack a vape pen". It took me a few days to realize that there was no evidence of an actual vape pen other than what the Russian government was saying. And that perhaps I was too quick to believe their charges because she was black, and a basketball player, and queer. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but then that's how pernicious racism and homophobia works.
Sure it's possible she packed a vape pen by accident or on purpose. I think it's not very likely given the dangers of international travel and the extra caution that people in threatened minorities take when traveling to oppressive, racist, homophobic countries like Russia. But what I really hate is how so much of the discussion is framed as "why did she do this?" instead of "did Russia fabricate this, too?"
posted by Nelson at 1:19 PM on July 7, 2022 [35 favorites]
I would not take Russian press as any indication. I think the odds are good because: pre-war, Russia would have no particular reason to frame a fairly obscure WNBA player; it'd be a really petty option for planted drugs; typical Russian practice is to find something you actually did and treat it with maximum harshness, rather than making it up wholesale; I don't find it at all odd that an athlete residing in a legal marijuana state (she plays for the Phoenix Mercury during the WNBA season) would have CBD around, as it is quite popular among athletes for relieving pain; it's really easy to forget to take that sort of thing out of your luggage.
I don't think it's any kind of certainty, of course, and either way she's undoubtedly being treated more harshly because of circumstances outside of anything she did, so I do hope some kind of solution is arranged.
posted by tavella at 1:28 PM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's any kind of certainty, of course, and either way she's undoubtedly being treated more harshly because of circumstances outside of anything she did, so I do hope some kind of solution is arranged.
posted by tavella at 1:28 PM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sure it's possible she packed a vape pen by accident or on purpose.
And even if she did, people are always looking for reasons people "deserve" whatever bad situation they're in. They shouldn't have done this, shouldn't have done that. I would never be so stupid!
It shifts the focus - and the blame - to the person who is in that bad situation. No one should be facing harsh prison time for having a vape pen. It not meaningless whether the Russian authorities made it up or not, but if they did not, it's still arbitrary, cruel, and completely unjustified.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 1:35 PM on July 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
And even if she did, people are always looking for reasons people "deserve" whatever bad situation they're in. They shouldn't have done this, shouldn't have done that. I would never be so stupid!
It shifts the focus - and the blame - to the person who is in that bad situation. No one should be facing harsh prison time for having a vape pen. It not meaningless whether the Russian authorities made it up or not, but if they did not, it's still arbitrary, cruel, and completely unjustified.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 1:35 PM on July 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
If they paid womens league players fairly this wouldn't be happening. It's a complete travesty that she's been put in this position.
posted by bleep at 1:45 PM on July 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:45 PM on July 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
Sure it's possible she packed a vape pen by accident or on purpose.
Yeah, I really don't care whether she actually had a vape pen with her or not. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to speculate, I'd guess that she had one with her and assumed a certain immunity due to her status that got yanked first and fastest for the black lesbian among the Americans who might usefully be snatched up for political purposes. For obvious reasons, she certainly wasn't going to run around saying "but my manager knew, my other teammates always have some, etc." But it doesn't matter. She is not safe in Russian prison.
posted by praemunire at 2:01 PM on July 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I really don't care whether she actually had a vape pen with her or not. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to speculate, I'd guess that she had one with her and assumed a certain immunity due to her status that got yanked first and fastest for the black lesbian among the Americans who might usefully be snatched up for political purposes. For obvious reasons, she certainly wasn't going to run around saying "but my manager knew, my other teammates always have some, etc." But it doesn't matter. She is not safe in Russian prison.
posted by praemunire at 2:01 PM on July 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
A horrible situation for Griner and I hope she is freed soon. But I find it weird how ready some Americans are to other the Russian criminal legal system when... the exact same alleged crime is illegal in the US. I'm struck by the capacity of some for sanctimony around this while the entire US legal system is based around locking up Black people under petty pretexts.
(And no, I shouldn't have to say this, but I'm not speaking about all who wish Griner freedom, I'm speaking to those who implicitly or explicitly posit the US as having a moral high ground on issues of incarceration and legal racism.)
posted by dusty potato at 2:18 PM on July 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
(And no, I shouldn't have to say this, but I'm not speaking about all who wish Griner freedom, I'm speaking to those who implicitly or explicitly posit the US as having a moral high ground on issues of incarceration and legal racism.)
posted by dusty potato at 2:18 PM on July 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Russia has a long, rich tradition of show trials. It was perfected by Stalin, Putin's mythic hero. The lesson taught by any show trial is not that a defendant is innocent or guilty of a particular crime. The lesson taught by a show trial is that the state can destroy anyone, for any reason, or for no reason at all. The state holds all the cards at all times. The state defines reality. The Russian state apparatus is meant to be regarded as an extension of Vladimir Putin personally, and right now it is reminding the world that it will not hesitate to destroy human beings. The entire point of the exercise is that the facts don't matter and that the notion of justice is defined and dispensed (and then arbitrarily redefined and redispensed) entirely at the whim of the Kremlin, which is one and the same with the whim of Vladimir Putin. The details of the charges brought against Brittney Griner are as meaningless as the details of the charges brought against Alexei Navalny. So why the insistence on a trial at all? Because this is supposed to remind you that the state doesn't just have the power to kill with impunity: it has the power to lie to you and then rub your nose in the lie until you say, "okay, I know you're lying, but I'm going to knuckle under and accept the terms of the lie because this isn't worth my life or my livelihood."
Disclaimer: the united states legal system is also frequently a farce and also frequently arbitrary. Maybe more than russia, maybe less than russia. Nothing that I have written above is an apologia of the united states legal system. But this thread, so far, is primarily about a russian trial, not an american one.
posted by cubeb at 2:35 PM on July 7, 2022 [23 favorites]
Disclaimer: the united states legal system is also frequently a farce and also frequently arbitrary. Maybe more than russia, maybe less than russia. Nothing that I have written above is an apologia of the united states legal system. But this thread, so far, is primarily about a russian trial, not an american one.
posted by cubeb at 2:35 PM on July 7, 2022 [23 favorites]
As a person who's never done anything drug in my life, I guess I'm still baffled as to why you'd deliberately bring some kind of drug anything to any foreign country? That seems like an obvious Bad Idea to even try, especially with everything else going on demographically speaking. I don't want to be all "she brought it upon herself," but it seems like a specifically strange thing enough to maybe not be a plant. But again, I know next to nothing about BG's life or drugs to know what would be considered normal or not about this kind of thing? (And obviously this is a stupid thing to persecute anyone for, but... Russia.)
I fear she may be screwed here if she's going to be used as a Putin pawn. I think the Biden administration would certainly like to try, but honestly, I don't know if it's doable given the current situation. Doesn't seem like they have any leverage and I'd be flabbergasted if the US actually allowed the kind of prisoner trade Putin would want.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:48 PM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I fear she may be screwed here if she's going to be used as a Putin pawn. I think the Biden administration would certainly like to try, but honestly, I don't know if it's doable given the current situation. Doesn't seem like they have any leverage and I'd be flabbergasted if the US actually allowed the kind of prisoner trade Putin would want.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:48 PM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd bet Russian authorities planted the drugs on her, mainly because Russia lies about everything, all the time. But I also think it would be so terribly foolish of someone who travels internationally on a regular basis, who almost certainly knows which countries treat Black women and lesbians badly — and knows Russia is high on the list of totalitarian states for PoC and LGBT travellers to avoid, if at all possible — to risk their safety and freedom in this way; that they would not take that risk. I hope she is freed soon. We can recapture Bout and other Russian war criminals later on — there are only so many places in the world to spend all their money.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Russian government could announce that Cheech & Chong were arrested for marijuana possession and I still wouldn't believe the Russian government. The true facts of the case will never be known as long as the information is coming from an authoritarian regime. The real mistake, which was made by countless people over recent decades, was to think it is safe to go to Putin's Russia at all.
posted by snofoam at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2022 [21 favorites]
I absolutely agree that it's a horrible situation for Griner and I hope she is freed soon, but I also feel like some of the discussion has been veering far afield.
The critique that "people are always looking for reasons people 'deserve' whatever bad situation they're in. They shouldn't have done this, shouldn't have done that. I would never be so stupid is valid, but perhaps more valid in some cases than in others. When the discussion is in part about legal forensics, then yes, blame, responsibility, and of what actually happened—to use technical language, the rhetorical stases—seem to me to important parts of it.
The little fuss about "think[ing] the odds are actually fairly good she indeed had a vape pen" versus the idea that "there's no reason to believe that Griner actually had a marijuana product with her"
feels to me disingenous. Of course there's at least some reason, as Tavella points out, in that she lives in a legal marijuana state and belongs to the generation with the highest incidence of marijuana in the US, and that legal marijuana in the US is a $25 billion industry.
Obviously, she doesn't deserve this, and it's absolutely terrible for her. The fact that US state laws conflict with US federal laws about marijuana, as dusty potato points out above, is part of the problem. Marijuana products are illegal for travel anywhere via commercial air in the US, because the FAA has that F at the front of its name. If you have reason to worry about being arrested, especially if you're a target of bigoted laws/enforcement, take the pot out of your travel bag now.
I have no idea whether she had pot with her, either. Does it matter to the question of her presumed guilt by the Russian courts, which have a 99% conviction rate? Absolutely not. Does it matter to questions of her responsibility to follow the laws of the countries she plays in? Probably so, I think. And I think that's a part of the complex questions people are engaging here.
American prisons suck. I can't even imagine how bad Russian prisons must suck And I hope she gets free soon.
posted by vitia at 3:09 PM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
The critique that "people are always looking for reasons people 'deserve' whatever bad situation they're in. They shouldn't have done this, shouldn't have done that. I would never be so stupid is valid, but perhaps more valid in some cases than in others. When the discussion is in part about legal forensics, then yes, blame, responsibility, and of what actually happened—to use technical language, the rhetorical stases—seem to me to important parts of it.
The little fuss about "think[ing] the odds are actually fairly good she indeed had a vape pen" versus the idea that "there's no reason to believe that Griner actually had a marijuana product with her"
feels to me disingenous. Of course there's at least some reason, as Tavella points out, in that she lives in a legal marijuana state and belongs to the generation with the highest incidence of marijuana in the US, and that legal marijuana in the US is a $25 billion industry.
Obviously, she doesn't deserve this, and it's absolutely terrible for her. The fact that US state laws conflict with US federal laws about marijuana, as dusty potato points out above, is part of the problem. Marijuana products are illegal for travel anywhere via commercial air in the US, because the FAA has that F at the front of its name. If you have reason to worry about being arrested, especially if you're a target of bigoted laws/enforcement, take the pot out of your travel bag now.
I have no idea whether she had pot with her, either. Does it matter to the question of her presumed guilt by the Russian courts, which have a 99% conviction rate? Absolutely not. Does it matter to questions of her responsibility to follow the laws of the countries she plays in? Probably so, I think. And I think that's a part of the complex questions people are engaging here.
American prisons suck. I can't even imagine how bad Russian prisons must suck And I hope she gets free soon.
posted by vitia at 3:09 PM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Just a reminder that Griner is not charged with possession of a small amount of cannabis for personal use. Since Sports Illustrated is doing a better job reporting on this than the ABC News link in the FPP:
posted by hydropsyche at 3:25 PM on July 7, 2022 [23 favorites]
"According to the Russian Federal Customs Service statement, a criminal case involving Griner was “opened into the large-scale transportation of drugs,” which can carry a jail sentence of up to 10 years in Russia."Does anybody here who is giving Russia the benefit of the doubt really believe that Griner was smuggling in large amounts of drugs for distribution purposes? Especially given her guilty plea to possessing two cartridges of hashish oil?
posted by hydropsyche at 3:25 PM on July 7, 2022 [23 favorites]
Does it matter to questions of her responsibility to follow the laws of the countries she plays in? Probably so, I think.
Having a vape pen is just not malum in se such that I can get terribly exercised about any such "responsibility." If she was foolish, she's already paid for it multiple times over.
posted by praemunire at 3:26 PM on July 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
Having a vape pen is just not malum in se such that I can get terribly exercised about any such "responsibility." If she was foolish, she's already paid for it multiple times over.
posted by praemunire at 3:26 PM on July 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
Following up on hydropsyche's SI link, ESPN has also had some deeper reporting: May 3, June 27, and today.
One of the disturbing things about this case is the Russian prisoner that keeps being mentioned as a possible swap
On one hand we have an international arms dealer convicted of selling anti-aircraft missiles to terrorists and conspiring to kill Americans. On the other hand we have a basketball player who Russian customs claims had a couple of vape pens in her luggage. I guess prisoner exchange is never about justice or equity but this disparity is really stark.
posted by Nelson at 4:28 PM on July 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
One of the disturbing things about this case is the Russian prisoner that keeps being mentioned as a possible swap
Russian news media have repeatedly raised speculation that she could be swapped for Russian arms trader Viktor Bout, nicknamed the Merchant of Death, who is serving a 25-year sentence on conviction of conspiracy to kill U.S. citizens and providing aid to a terrorist organization.(ESPN attributes the Bout idea to "Russian news media" but Forbes has reported that the Biden administration offered Bout.)
Russia has sought Bout's release for years. But the discrepancy between Griner's case -- she allegedly was found in possession of vape cartridges containing cannabis oil -- and Bout's global dealings in deadly weapons could make such a swap unpalatable to the United States.
On one hand we have an international arms dealer convicted of selling anti-aircraft missiles to terrorists and conspiring to kill Americans. On the other hand we have a basketball player who Russian customs claims had a couple of vape pens in her luggage. I guess prisoner exchange is never about justice or equity but this disparity is really stark.
posted by Nelson at 4:28 PM on July 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
The Reagan administration negotiated for the release of American hostages in Lebanon. This resulted in illegal weapons sales to Iran and the even more illegal use of those profits from those sales to transfer weapons to the Contras. To keep their illegal scheme secret they had the hostage takers invite people like Jesse Jackson to “negotiate” the release of the hostages. Jackson and others used in this role had no idea that they were participating pure theater. Terry Waite even ended up kidnapped himself.
posted by interogative mood at 4:55 PM on July 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 4:55 PM on July 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Forbes is reporting that Tass and Tass's source, almost certainly Russian, said the US offered Bout. I sincerely doubt it, especially since that was back in May and it is unlikely that Russia would not have taken such a bargain basement deal. Frankly, it's not a deal I think the US should ever make; it's one thing to release a yet another pilot flying drug shipments who had already served more than half the sentence, it's another to release one of the most murderous arms merchants in the world.
posted by tavella at 4:58 PM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tavella at 4:58 PM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm not one to give people a hard time, and maybe I'm carrying lingering bitterness because Metafilter went down the archetypal Maddow-esque "Russia Russia Russia" rabbit hole and gave me false hope with regard to Trump/Mueller, but this thread seriously makes me cringe
Griner never even tried to deny the cartridges belonged to her, yet somehow people have convinced themselves the most obvious explanation is that Russian decided to hold her hostage and create an international incident because they saw it as a good opportunity to be racist and homophobic. For the record, I don't in any way think Griner deserves what she's going through, but I doubt any other B-tier (in terms of celebrity) American athlete would have been treated differently in Russia
People put these little pre-filled cartridges in their luggage all the time, thinking it will be safe because they can't be readily distinguished from standard nicotine e-cig cartridges. Since they work with standard e-cig batteries, they'll often take them out of the packaging and bundle them in with regular nicotine products, thinking no one will bother to test them
She might not have even bothered to do that. She could have just left them in their normal packaging, which almost always has clear cannabis/drug iconography
Here in California (of all places) circa 2009, I knew a white kid in his 20s who was facing felony charges after being arrested with a small dropper bottle of butane hash oil dissolved in alcohol. This was after decriminalization, and he would have only gotten a ticket if it had been a standard cannabis product or actual hash. The way he described it, one of the cops actually seemed to feel bad, telling him he was screwed because they simply couldn't enter it into evidence like other forms of cannabis. He was lucky enough to get diversion because he had a clean record and knew to shut up and ask for a lawyer as soon as they found the bottle, but young people get in deep trouble for this kind of thing all the time
Perhaps someone here remembers this white teenager in Texas who was facing a potential life sentence for selling hash oil brownies, because their laws include the weight of all the flour/sugar/etc in how the charges calculated? He ended up getting a plea deal for 7 years probation, but only after the media started making hay of it
Link
I wouldn't put it past Russia to make an example out of her and/or inflate the charges for whatever purposes. Still, it's just as likely their criminal codes haven't caught up with modern trends in the West, and thus don't account for the fact someone could be carrying solvent-extracted concentrate distilled from large quantities of marijuana strictly for personal use. Until a little over a decade ago, smugglers were the only ones trying to move something like that across international borders and through an airport
If California's laws didn't make such distinctions and include personal use considerations for those products until several years ago, what are the odds Russia's laws would? Especially since we're dealing with international customs?
Based on my interactions with athletes, who tend to be some of the most incredibly entitled people on Earth, there's no doubt in my mind she put those cartridges in her luggage thinking she could get away with it. Again, that doesn't mean I think she deserves what's happening to her, or that she doesn't deserve a deal which would let her come home. I just think the way people are talking in this thread is an insult to all the people who's been genuinely railroaded via marijuana charges, and the level of knee-jerk conspiratorial thinking makes me feel like I'm on right-wing Twitter
posted by prosopagnosia at 11:00 PM on July 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
Griner never even tried to deny the cartridges belonged to her, yet somehow people have convinced themselves the most obvious explanation is that Russian decided to hold her hostage and create an international incident because they saw it as a good opportunity to be racist and homophobic. For the record, I don't in any way think Griner deserves what she's going through, but I doubt any other B-tier (in terms of celebrity) American athlete would have been treated differently in Russia
People put these little pre-filled cartridges in their luggage all the time, thinking it will be safe because they can't be readily distinguished from standard nicotine e-cig cartridges. Since they work with standard e-cig batteries, they'll often take them out of the packaging and bundle them in with regular nicotine products, thinking no one will bother to test them
She might not have even bothered to do that. She could have just left them in their normal packaging, which almost always has clear cannabis/drug iconography
Here in California (of all places) circa 2009, I knew a white kid in his 20s who was facing felony charges after being arrested with a small dropper bottle of butane hash oil dissolved in alcohol. This was after decriminalization, and he would have only gotten a ticket if it had been a standard cannabis product or actual hash. The way he described it, one of the cops actually seemed to feel bad, telling him he was screwed because they simply couldn't enter it into evidence like other forms of cannabis. He was lucky enough to get diversion because he had a clean record and knew to shut up and ask for a lawyer as soon as they found the bottle, but young people get in deep trouble for this kind of thing all the time
Perhaps someone here remembers this white teenager in Texas who was facing a potential life sentence for selling hash oil brownies, because their laws include the weight of all the flour/sugar/etc in how the charges calculated? He ended up getting a plea deal for 7 years probation, but only after the media started making hay of it
Link
I wouldn't put it past Russia to make an example out of her and/or inflate the charges for whatever purposes. Still, it's just as likely their criminal codes haven't caught up with modern trends in the West, and thus don't account for the fact someone could be carrying solvent-extracted concentrate distilled from large quantities of marijuana strictly for personal use. Until a little over a decade ago, smugglers were the only ones trying to move something like that across international borders and through an airport
If California's laws didn't make such distinctions and include personal use considerations for those products until several years ago, what are the odds Russia's laws would? Especially since we're dealing with international customs?
Based on my interactions with athletes, who tend to be some of the most incredibly entitled people on Earth, there's no doubt in my mind she put those cartridges in her luggage thinking she could get away with it. Again, that doesn't mean I think she deserves what's happening to her, or that she doesn't deserve a deal which would let her come home. I just think the way people are talking in this thread is an insult to all the people who's been genuinely railroaded via marijuana charges, and the level of knee-jerk conspiratorial thinking makes me feel like I'm on right-wing Twitter
posted by prosopagnosia at 11:00 PM on July 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
Agreed, prosopagnosia, especially on the "knee-jerk conspiratorial thinking," but also on the need to think about Russia's criminal codes and their context as a nation. Assertions about never believing the Russian government miss the fact that the most effective propaganda always has some element of truth, and sweeping generalizations that an entire nation lies about everything all the time aren't helpful: those sweeping generalizations are also often a hallmark of right-wing Twitter ("Democrats hate you!"). The arguments that "the Russian state regularly imprisons political opponents on invented charges" ignore that those political opponents are Russian, rather than American citizens, for whom there would be considerably more diplomatic blowback. And to suggest that "Russian authorities planted the drugs on her" assumes that said Russian authorities are not only evil but also stupid: as evidenced by Etrigan's title for the post, we don't need to be told who two-time Olympic Gold medalist and WNBA star Brittney Griner is, and neither do Russians, and if they were to do something as legally and diplomatically risky as planting something on someone who draws that much attention, that "something" would be a whole lot more damning than a small amount of marijuana product.
None of that is equivalent to "giving Russia the benefit of the doubt." It's trying to think reasonably about what reasonable and intelligent humans would do, which I tend to think of as a prerequisite in argument. I tell my rhetoric students that if their arguments rest upon the assumption that those whose positions differ from theirs are stupid, crazy, or evil (or, OK, somehow ethically lacking: viz. "giving Russia the benefit of the doubt"), they need to try harder.
We can recapture Bout and other Russian war criminals later on — there are only so many places in the world to spend all their money.
Um, one of those places being, like, Russia? Bout was pursued for years before being captured by Thai police, and even then, the initial verdict was against extradition, and it took two more years to get that overturned.
If we're talking about the desperate and terrible situation that Brittney Griner is in, I'd hope that respectful discussion of her situation would merit more careful thought, rather than some of the stuff here.
posted by vitia at 12:50 AM on July 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
None of that is equivalent to "giving Russia the benefit of the doubt." It's trying to think reasonably about what reasonable and intelligent humans would do, which I tend to think of as a prerequisite in argument. I tell my rhetoric students that if their arguments rest upon the assumption that those whose positions differ from theirs are stupid, crazy, or evil (or, OK, somehow ethically lacking: viz. "giving Russia the benefit of the doubt"), they need to try harder.
We can recapture Bout and other Russian war criminals later on — there are only so many places in the world to spend all their money.
Um, one of those places being, like, Russia? Bout was pursued for years before being captured by Thai police, and even then, the initial verdict was against extradition, and it took two more years to get that overturned.
If we're talking about the desperate and terrible situation that Brittney Griner is in, I'd hope that respectful discussion of her situation would merit more careful thought, rather than some of the stuff here.
posted by vitia at 12:50 AM on July 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
assumes that said Russian authorities are not only evil but also stupid
The Russian authorities are definitely, absolutely, 100% are both of those.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:56 AM on July 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Russian authorities are definitely, absolutely, 100% are both of those.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:56 AM on July 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
something as legally and diplomatically risky as planting something on someone
Also, what risk? This is a regime with an infinite appetite for risking pissing off other countries. They murdered a guy in the UK with polonium, and followed it up by trying to murder another guy with nerve agent years later, both times picking the method the most likely to create a diplomatic incident.
Then they started a land war in Europe!
posted by BungaDunga at 6:10 AM on July 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also, what risk? This is a regime with an infinite appetite for risking pissing off other countries. They murdered a guy in the UK with polonium, and followed it up by trying to murder another guy with nerve agent years later, both times picking the method the most likely to create a diplomatic incident.
Then they started a land war in Europe!
posted by BungaDunga at 6:10 AM on July 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Let's apply the argument above to this discussion
posted by Nelson at 7:37 AM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not one to give people a hard time, maybe I'm carrying lingering bitterness from all the Russian propaganda efforts online, but some of the comments here make me cringe. Here in California (of all places) circa 2009 there were Russian propaganda agents posting on Internet forums like Metafilter. I wouldn't put it past Russia to post propaganda about her now. Based on my interactions with Internet commenters there's no doubt in my mind some of the online discourse about Griner is Russian-directed. The level of knee-jerk conspiratorial thinking makes me feel like I'm on tankie TwitterPretty shitty, huh?
posted by Nelson at 7:37 AM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
...I'm not even sure what the hell you mean?
The simplest throughline for the situation is that Griner accidentally or deliberately took her legal CBD into a place where it wasn't legal, and then got fucked over when something that probably could have been resolved fairly easily ran into the war and became a political game. It's a great deal more logical than believing that before the war, a war mind you where Russia absolutely believed they would take only a few days to roll over Ukraine, they picked a not-very-important WNBA player to frame as a hostage.
posted by tavella at 8:18 AM on July 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
The simplest throughline for the situation is that Griner accidentally or deliberately took her legal CBD into a place where it wasn't legal, and then got fucked over when something that probably could have been resolved fairly easily ran into the war and became a political game. It's a great deal more logical than believing that before the war, a war mind you where Russia absolutely believed they would take only a few days to roll over Ukraine, they picked a not-very-important WNBA player to frame as a hostage.
posted by tavella at 8:18 AM on July 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
if we are all about wild speculation, I'm going to try hard and put myself in Griner's shoes
I don't know a damn thing about Griner, but I can imagine the country she grew up in, the lessons she learned when it comes to how authority deals with people. Now put Griner in a different country, add on a layer of "it's Russia ffs"
what more needs to be said, or speculated? and who cares if you're right? the whole situation is shitty and wrong
posted by elkevelvet at 8:28 AM on July 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't know a damn thing about Griner, but I can imagine the country she grew up in, the lessons she learned when it comes to how authority deals with people. Now put Griner in a different country, add on a layer of "it's Russia ffs"
what more needs to be said, or speculated? and who cares if you're right? the whole situation is shitty and wrong
posted by elkevelvet at 8:28 AM on July 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
this thread seriously makes me cringe
If you cringe at the idea that an authoritarian legal system with a history of outrageous international covert aggression against individuals might have framed a citizen of a country they knew they were about to engage in a protracted cold conflict with, you are not cut out for this world.
As you can see above, I think it's more likely than not that she had it, either accidentally or because she believed that the authorities were generally willing to look the other way for a pro athlete, but, man, I couldn't rule out the other possibilities, much less think they were embarrassing for people to entertain.
posted by praemunire at 8:30 AM on July 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
If you cringe at the idea that an authoritarian legal system with a history of outrageous international covert aggression against individuals might have framed a citizen of a country they knew they were about to engage in a protracted cold conflict with, you are not cut out for this world.
As you can see above, I think it's more likely than not that she had it, either accidentally or because she believed that the authorities were generally willing to look the other way for a pro athlete, but, man, I couldn't rule out the other possibilities, much less think they were embarrassing for people to entertain.
posted by praemunire at 8:30 AM on July 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
This ESPN story from a couple of weeks ago has a quote from an expert that helped me understand the nature of Griner's arrest and trial
"This may sound counterintuitive, but the trial is a crucial part of the process," Dr. Danielle Gilbert, assistant professor of military and strategic studies at the United States Air Force Academy, told ESPN. "The Russians have to keep pretending that this is a legitimate arrest. There is no reason to believe that the charges are legitimate or that her trial will be fair. But if and when she's convicted, the Russians will have made clear their credible alternative to a deal to bring her home.posted by Nelson at 9:07 AM on July 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Hostage diplomacy cases rely on the pretense of law. With Brittney Griner -- and Paul Whelan and Trevor Reed before her -- the Russians are using our own respect for the rule of law against us."
I'd hope that respectful discussion of her situation would merit more careful thought
I'm not sure when it became okay to make excuses for a murderous, totalitarian country under the pretense of nuance, but Russia has made it abundantly clear that it does not need defending, here or anywhere else, and certainly not for its actions against Ms. Griner.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:53 AM on July 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure when it became okay to make excuses for a murderous, totalitarian country under the pretense of nuance, but Russia has made it abundantly clear that it does not need defending, here or anywhere else, and certainly not for its actions against Ms. Griner.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:53 AM on July 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
they picked a not-very-important WNBA player to frame as a hostage.
Paul Whelan is just some guy, but it does seem like he was probably set up. It's a thing authoritarian regimes do sometimes, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was even more of a nobody and Iran used her and another guy as a lever to pry £400m out of the Brits. It happens.
Whether the weed was planted or not, Putin's obviously going to release her if they can get something valuable enough out of it, which makes the whole trial and sentencing a purely political process that will proceed exactly according to the regime's preference. If they prefer to release her early, she'll get a suspended sentence. If they want to turn the screws and hope that makes the US cough up something, she'll get sentenced to a labor camp for a decade. It's really up to the regime what happens now.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:55 AM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Paul Whelan is just some guy, but it does seem like he was probably set up. It's a thing authoritarian regimes do sometimes, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was even more of a nobody and Iran used her and another guy as a lever to pry £400m out of the Brits. It happens.
Whether the weed was planted or not, Putin's obviously going to release her if they can get something valuable enough out of it, which makes the whole trial and sentencing a purely political process that will proceed exactly according to the regime's preference. If they prefer to release her early, she'll get a suspended sentence. If they want to turn the screws and hope that makes the US cough up something, she'll get sentenced to a labor camp for a decade. It's really up to the regime what happens now.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:55 AM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Didn't she not want the National Anthem played at events?
posted by Czjewel at 1:18 PM on July 8, 2022
posted by Czjewel at 1:18 PM on July 8, 2022
And?
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:51 PM on July 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:51 PM on July 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
they picked a not-very-important WNBA player
Ah, there it is. Thanks for clearing up who she is for all of your readers.
posted by heyho at 1:52 PM on July 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ah, there it is. Thanks for clearing up who she is for all of your readers.
posted by heyho at 1:52 PM on July 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Didn't she not want the National Anthem played at events?
posted by Czjewel at 1:18 PM on July 8 [+] [!]
and the room of infamy just got a little more crowded
posted by elkevelvet at 2:07 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Czjewel at 1:18 PM on July 8 [+] [!]
and the room of infamy just got a little more crowded
posted by elkevelvet at 2:07 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
They sucked his brains out, if you didn't notice above, I tried to offer a gentle caution about intentionally misrepresenting people's positions.
Russia has made it abundantly clear that it does not need defending
suggests that people here are defending Russia. No one in this thread is doing that. I'm happy to take it up on MetaTalk if desired, but please stop.
Let's walk through a couple scenarios so it's clear what we're talking about here.
A. EVIL STUPID RUSSIA PLANTS DRUGS ON GRINER: The Russian intelligence services, in the middle of covertly planning a secret massive invasion of Ukraine that they fully expect will be successful in three days and give them everything they want, monitor -- of all things -- Brittney Griner's UMMC Yekaterinburg basketball schedule (rather than the flight schedules of, say, prominent anti-Russia media or diplomatic or scientific figures). They decide that the best strategy would be to plant two vape cartridges of TCH oil on Griner in order to use her as a hostage after the successful invasion of Ukraine, knowing that up to 6 grams of flower or 2 grams of hash were re-categorized from a criminal offense to an administrative offense in 2004. The Russian intelligence services purchase American THC vape cartridges and then conspire to have those cartridges "discovered," on video, at Sheremtyovo, secure in their firmly calculated knowledge that American diplomats will be too docile, cowed, and compliant to raise any objection after the successful invasion of Ukraine. Because all Russians are evil and hate basketball, the baggage handlers, checkpoint administrators, and airport security all twirl their mustaches and laugh evilly at the opportunity to publicly arrest a 6' 2" highly recognizable African-American woman, certain in their foreknowledge that such an arrest will never invite sufficient scrutiny to raise questions, and certain as well in their plan that a small amount of THC can be easily re-categorized in the Russian courts as hashish and therefore meriting a much longer and harsher sentence so Griner can easily be traded for someone like Viktor Bout.
B. OCCAM'S RAZOR: Brittney Griner departs from PHX with a couple TCH cartridges -- accidentally or on purpose -- and arrives at Sheremtyovo, in a city with more than 500 tobacco/nicotine vape shops, feeling relatively secure that explaining any cartridges won't be a problem, since she's been making this trip for the past 7 years or so. The drug dogs sniff out the cartridges and Griner is taken to jail. Then the invasion of Ukraine happens, while Griner is processing through the Russian jails (in the US, speaking from family experience, such processing can often be a weeks-long process with multiple detention locations and administrative tasks). Griner may or may not ask her team to help her out. Given the invasion, however, somebody at Sheryemtovo or Yekaterinburg says, "Hey comrade, we picked up this American athlete celebrity. Can we do something with this?" And the KGB says, "Fuck yes! Hold on to her; we'll figure something out!" Her Yekaterinburg team may or may not say, "Well, shit, we had her back before, but now there's this Ukraine thing. You're on your own, Brittney!" There's probably a week or two, while the initial chaos of the Ukraine war is getting underway, of back-and-forth communication before Russian diplomats realize they have to tell the US something. So they put out some vague BS, let the American diplomat visit in March, and then the intelligence services carry on with their standard practice, which, as pointed out above, "is to find something you actually did and treat it with maximum harshness, rather than making it up wholesale." The Russian security services at some point recognize this as an opportunity to try and get back some prisoners they've been wanting for a long time, and build on it.
Which do we think is more likely?
Again: yes, Russia has an absolutely shitty authoritarian government that does shitty authoritarian things. And yes, the idiot-orange-blob-who-shall-not-be-named has called Putin "smart." That doesn't mean that people in Russia are not smart — or, conversely, that they're evilly mastermind smart, either. (Some folks in this thread seem to be trying to have that distinction both ways, ahem.) And the Russian security services -- like the American security services and intelligence services and military (I'm a former West Point professor who served in OEF in Afghanistan in 2011; I love the Afghan people, and despise what the Russians did there, and despise as well plenty of the stuff that Americans did there, and despair that my own mission and efforts to promote Afghan literacy may have amounted to nothing) -- know that no plan survives first contact. To build such a Byzantine labyrinth of a plan described above is, as prosopagnosia suggests above, QAnon-style thinking, and it fits in well with Hollywood fantasies about espionage, which also tend to try to hand-wave away any inconvenient details (e.g., the diplomatic consequences of Russian activities against Russian citizens versus US citizens and which Russians are targeted -- folks who want to invoke the Litvinenko and Skripal murders might want to either educate themselves further on those topics or else be more truthful in framing them: Putin has publicly said Russian defectors will be killed, and that declaration and those actions have as their primary intended audience other Russians; this is different and more specific than "murdered a guy," which suggests that Russia murders non-Russians indiscriminately, and therefore requires less careful thought, since it's easy to do the rhetorical handwave and say "It's simple! Russia is evil and stupid!"), as folks above are doing. (Yes, I think Putin's actions are evil, though I doubt he does: in his eyes, and those of many Russians, his goal is to MARGA, to сделать Россию снова великой and restore it to its imperial glory.)
Also again: the hostage situation that the Russian government has put Brittney Griner in is absolutely awful, particularly given that she's a black lesbian in a country with a history of bigotry. I would hope that empathetic, caring, intelligent people might perceive the need to think about her situation with some nuance that addresses and respects the complexity of the situation, rather than Hollywood fantasy or QAnon conspiracy.
But, y'know, why bother when one can just attack somebody with one-liners and ad hominems in the comments?
posted by vitia at 3:26 PM on July 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Russia has made it abundantly clear that it does not need defending
suggests that people here are defending Russia. No one in this thread is doing that. I'm happy to take it up on MetaTalk if desired, but please stop.
Let's walk through a couple scenarios so it's clear what we're talking about here.
A. EVIL STUPID RUSSIA PLANTS DRUGS ON GRINER: The Russian intelligence services, in the middle of covertly planning a secret massive invasion of Ukraine that they fully expect will be successful in three days and give them everything they want, monitor -- of all things -- Brittney Griner's UMMC Yekaterinburg basketball schedule (rather than the flight schedules of, say, prominent anti-Russia media or diplomatic or scientific figures). They decide that the best strategy would be to plant two vape cartridges of TCH oil on Griner in order to use her as a hostage after the successful invasion of Ukraine, knowing that up to 6 grams of flower or 2 grams of hash were re-categorized from a criminal offense to an administrative offense in 2004. The Russian intelligence services purchase American THC vape cartridges and then conspire to have those cartridges "discovered," on video, at Sheremtyovo, secure in their firmly calculated knowledge that American diplomats will be too docile, cowed, and compliant to raise any objection after the successful invasion of Ukraine. Because all Russians are evil and hate basketball, the baggage handlers, checkpoint administrators, and airport security all twirl their mustaches and laugh evilly at the opportunity to publicly arrest a 6' 2" highly recognizable African-American woman, certain in their foreknowledge that such an arrest will never invite sufficient scrutiny to raise questions, and certain as well in their plan that a small amount of THC can be easily re-categorized in the Russian courts as hashish and therefore meriting a much longer and harsher sentence so Griner can easily be traded for someone like Viktor Bout.
B. OCCAM'S RAZOR: Brittney Griner departs from PHX with a couple TCH cartridges -- accidentally or on purpose -- and arrives at Sheremtyovo, in a city with more than 500 tobacco/nicotine vape shops, feeling relatively secure that explaining any cartridges won't be a problem, since she's been making this trip for the past 7 years or so. The drug dogs sniff out the cartridges and Griner is taken to jail. Then the invasion of Ukraine happens, while Griner is processing through the Russian jails (in the US, speaking from family experience, such processing can often be a weeks-long process with multiple detention locations and administrative tasks). Griner may or may not ask her team to help her out. Given the invasion, however, somebody at Sheryemtovo or Yekaterinburg says, "Hey comrade, we picked up this American athlete celebrity. Can we do something with this?" And the KGB says, "Fuck yes! Hold on to her; we'll figure something out!" Her Yekaterinburg team may or may not say, "Well, shit, we had her back before, but now there's this Ukraine thing. You're on your own, Brittney!" There's probably a week or two, while the initial chaos of the Ukraine war is getting underway, of back-and-forth communication before Russian diplomats realize they have to tell the US something. So they put out some vague BS, let the American diplomat visit in March, and then the intelligence services carry on with their standard practice, which, as pointed out above, "is to find something you actually did and treat it with maximum harshness, rather than making it up wholesale." The Russian security services at some point recognize this as an opportunity to try and get back some prisoners they've been wanting for a long time, and build on it.
Which do we think is more likely?
Again: yes, Russia has an absolutely shitty authoritarian government that does shitty authoritarian things. And yes, the idiot-orange-blob-who-shall-not-be-named has called Putin "smart." That doesn't mean that people in Russia are not smart — or, conversely, that they're evilly mastermind smart, either. (Some folks in this thread seem to be trying to have that distinction both ways, ahem.) And the Russian security services -- like the American security services and intelligence services and military (I'm a former West Point professor who served in OEF in Afghanistan in 2011; I love the Afghan people, and despise what the Russians did there, and despise as well plenty of the stuff that Americans did there, and despair that my own mission and efforts to promote Afghan literacy may have amounted to nothing) -- know that no plan survives first contact. To build such a Byzantine labyrinth of a plan described above is, as prosopagnosia suggests above, QAnon-style thinking, and it fits in well with Hollywood fantasies about espionage, which also tend to try to hand-wave away any inconvenient details (e.g., the diplomatic consequences of Russian activities against Russian citizens versus US citizens and which Russians are targeted -- folks who want to invoke the Litvinenko and Skripal murders might want to either educate themselves further on those topics or else be more truthful in framing them: Putin has publicly said Russian defectors will be killed, and that declaration and those actions have as their primary intended audience other Russians; this is different and more specific than "murdered a guy," which suggests that Russia murders non-Russians indiscriminately, and therefore requires less careful thought, since it's easy to do the rhetorical handwave and say "It's simple! Russia is evil and stupid!"), as folks above are doing. (Yes, I think Putin's actions are evil, though I doubt he does: in his eyes, and those of many Russians, his goal is to M
Also again: the hostage situation that the Russian government has put Brittney Griner in is absolutely awful, particularly given that she's a black lesbian in a country with a history of bigotry. I would hope that empathetic, caring, intelligent people might perceive the need to think about her situation with some nuance that addresses and respects the complexity of the situation, rather than Hollywood fantasy or QAnon conspiracy.
But, y'know, why bother when one can just attack somebody with one-liners and ad hominems in the comments?
posted by vitia at 3:26 PM on July 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Didn't she not want the National Anthem played at events?
Given the incredibly racist third stanza to "The Star Spangled Banner" -- wherein Scott-Key vents his anger at slaves who have run away, become free by reaching British naval ships, then returned to fight as part of the Colonial Marines (the 'hirelings') -- I don't want the National Anthem played either.
Given the incredibly racist third stanza to "The Star Spangled Banner" -- wherein Scott-Key vents his anger at slaves who have run away, become free by reaching British naval ships, then returned to fight as part of the Colonial Marines (the 'hirelings') -- I don't want the National Anthem played either.
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,posted by mikelieman at 3:29 PM on July 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave
they picked a not-very-important WNBA player
Ah, there it is. Thanks for clearing up who she is for all of your readers.
I want to clarify; "not-very-important" pertains to her status as a private citizen, albeit an entertainer and a two-time representative of her nation at the Olympics. In basketball, she's an all-star player.
posted by porpoise at 3:52 PM on July 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ah, there it is. Thanks for clearing up who she is for all of your readers.
I want to clarify; "not-very-important" pertains to her status as a private citizen, albeit an entertainer and a two-time representative of her nation at the Olympics. In basketball, she's an all-star player.
posted by porpoise at 3:52 PM on July 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yes, that is what I meant.
posted by tavella at 3:56 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 3:56 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I see; you meant non-VIP, not that she's not important. Sorry for the misread, tavella.
posted by heyho at 4:12 PM on July 8, 2022
posted by heyho at 4:12 PM on July 8, 2022
The basic problem here is the assumption that authoritarian governments act in unison and according to some strict game theory hatched by third parties. I used to try to play the latter game a lot, then I realized that (a) I rarely have access to sufficient information and (b) even if I did, people are astoundingly willing to act not in strict conformance to game theory. The number of things that have happened in history because some dumbfuck middle manager in government decided they would be a good idea/fun/gratifying of some personal or public grievance...
posted by praemunire at 4:16 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 4:16 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
When you demand others be "productive", let's be clear that you have repeatedly infantilized others views to dismiss them, instead of actually dealing with those positions, as written.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:05 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:05 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Lets pause on singling out users about their responses in this thread and stick to the topic at hand. If you feel the need to bring attention to a user’s responses, take it to MeFi Mail or the contact form.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 5:14 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 5:14 PM on July 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Joe Biden replies to Brittney Griner’s letter assuring her of release efforts [Guardian]
posted by ellieBOA at 6:27 AM on July 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ellieBOA at 6:27 AM on July 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Fr. Nathan Monk, former Russian Orthodox priest and current critic of Putin had a nice point by point refutation of some of the arguments he's heard about this. Sorry about the Facebook link:
posted by selfmedicating at 4:48 PM on July 12, 2022
posted by selfmedicating at 4:48 PM on July 12, 2022
Every player in the WNBA AllStar Game came out to start the second half in Brittney Griner's No. 42 jersey.
posted by ellieBOA at 1:05 AM on July 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 1:05 AM on July 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Brittney Griner has fourth day of hearings in her Russia drug trial.
As part of the presentation of evidence for the defense, one of Griner’s attorneys, Maria Blagovolina, a partner at law firm Rybalkin, Gortsunyan, Dyakin & Partners, read a medical certificate indicating that Griner was prescribed medical cannabis by U.S. doctors as part of treatment for chronic pain and other conditions. ...posted by Nelson at 7:43 AM on July 15, 2022
Her trial has been held in unusual secrecy, with journalists allowed only limited access and fully barred from the proceedings on Thursday. On Friday, however, journalists were given access to the hearing.
From 2016: Lost And Found In Russia. A profile of Griner and her career in Russia. It's not entirely flattering to Griner and is about events seven years before her wrongful detention, so I'm a little hesitant to share it. But it has some useful context on her work in Russia.
Another bit of context: Can Russia's oligarchs help free Brittney Griner? Talks about Andrei Kozitsyn and Iskander Makhmudov, the owners of Griner's team UMMC Ekaterinburg. There is undoubtedly some very complicated Kremlin politics involved.
posted by Nelson at 10:30 AM on July 17, 2022
Another bit of context: Can Russia's oligarchs help free Brittney Griner? Talks about Andrei Kozitsyn and Iskander Makhmudov, the owners of Griner's team UMMC Ekaterinburg. There is undoubtedly some very complicated Kremlin politics involved.
posted by Nelson at 10:30 AM on July 17, 2022
Brittney Griner Had a Prescription for the Weed She Brought to Russia
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:48 PM on July 17, 2022
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:48 PM on July 17, 2022
her wrongful detention
It doesn't actually appear to have been a wrongful detention? From all current evidence, she did enter Russia with legal, prescribed CBD that was illegal in Russia. Other countries do get to have different drug laws, being sovereign. I assure you, it's not just dictatorships, I earnestly entreat you to not think you can stroll into Japan with your Adderall prescription, much less pot, or you may have an extended encounter with a Japanese jail.
Now where it becomes wrong is where instead of a normal prosecution, it became about using her as a bargaining chip with the US.
posted by tavella at 12:33 PM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
It doesn't actually appear to have been a wrongful detention? From all current evidence, she did enter Russia with legal, prescribed CBD that was illegal in Russia. Other countries do get to have different drug laws, being sovereign. I assure you, it's not just dictatorships, I earnestly entreat you to not think you can stroll into Japan with your Adderall prescription, much less pot, or you may have an extended encounter with a Japanese jail.
Now where it becomes wrong is where instead of a normal prosecution, it became about using her as a bargaining chip with the US.
posted by tavella at 12:33 PM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Wrongful detention" is the US term of diplomatic art they are using to describe Griner's arrest and captivity. The NYT describes what the term means.
A law passed by Congress in 2020 established 11 criteria for such a designation, any one of which can be a sufficient basis to secure the detainee’s release, including “credible information indicating innocence of the detained individual,” “credible reports that the detention is a pretext for an illegitimate purpose,” or a conclusion that U.S. “diplomatic engagement is likely necessary.”posted by Nelson at 12:48 PM on July 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Biden administration offers convicted Russian arms dealer in exchange for Griner, Whelan. Some specifics (including Bout's name) are attributed to "sources" but the general fact that some sort of deal was proposed is official. Also it may not be going well.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken announced Wednesday that the US presented a “substantial proposal” to Moscow “weeks ago” for Whelan and Griner, who are classified as wrongfully detained. Speaking at a press conference at the State Department, Blinken said Biden was “directly involved” and signed off on the proposal. ...posted by Nelson at 3:43 PM on July 27, 2022
A senior administration official suggested Moscow has not been responsive to the “substantial offer” first presented in June, telling CNN “it takes two to tango.”
Exchanging Bout was a terrible idea in the first place, but the Russians apparently want another murderer added in. I truly hope this kills the deal.
posted by tavella at 1:56 PM on July 29, 2022
posted by tavella at 1:56 PM on July 29, 2022
Some historical context in recent articles.
Brittney Griner and the Total Lopsidedness of Prisoner Swaps with Russia
Brittney Griner and the Total Lopsidedness of Prisoner Swaps with Russia
It may be that by agreeing to swap prisoners with autocrats, the United States encourages them to grab more hostages. But it is more important that American citizens should know that if they are imprisoned in a country with a dubious legal system, the U.S. government will do all it can to get them back.Proposal for Griner, Whelan follows history of U.S.-Russia prisoner swaps
A swap with Griner and Whelan would be the latest in Washington’s decades-long history of trading captives with Moscow. The approach has cooled tensions and brought Americans and allies home, although critics have argued that exchanges incentivize taking Americans hostage.posted by Nelson at 2:03 PM on July 29, 2022
Griner isn't the only American in a Russian prison because they brought pot into Russia. And it's pretty clear at this point that she did, unless you think that Russia somehow managed to know her prescription and find the same CBD she had been prescribed in the US to plant. I'm sorry she fell afoul of Russia's bullshit marijuana laws, and I'd be happy to trade her and the others for any Russians in US prisons on similar bullshit drug charges or things at the same level. But someone who has contributed to the death of thousands and _will go on to kill thousands more if released_? Fuck that.
posted by tavella at 2:49 PM on July 29, 2022
posted by tavella at 2:49 PM on July 29, 2022
Donald Trump defends Russia’s arrest of out WNBA player Brittney Griner
posted by Nelson at 7:11 AM on August 1, 2022
Bout, according to Trump, is “absolutely one of the worst in the world, and he’s gonna be given his freedom because a potentially spoiled person goes into Russia loaded up with drugs.”Don't love sharing the latest Trump hate nonsense but he's the previous President of the United States and his comments would have diplomatic relevance if everyone didn't know to ignore him.
posted by Nelson at 7:11 AM on August 1, 2022
But someone who has contributed to the death of thousands and _will go on to kill thousands more if released_? Fuck that.
Even weirder ,Russia isn't even going for it. But yeah, the inequality of that makes me gag too.
I guess I'm all "Only nine years, not 25 to life" or something here.... I was expecting worse.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:30 PM on August 4, 2022
Even weirder ,Russia isn't even going for it. But yeah, the inequality of that makes me gag too.
I guess I'm all "Only nine years, not 25 to life" or something here.... I was expecting worse.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:30 PM on August 4, 2022
As the article said, the trial had to be concluded before a prisoner exchange could happen. I wouldn't take today's news as evidence she now can't get out. Nine years is not lenient; again as the article says ten years was the maximum charge and the prosecutor was asking for 9 1/2.
posted by Nelson at 6:30 PM on August 4, 2022
posted by Nelson at 6:30 PM on August 4, 2022
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I would love to read some reporting on what the Russian basketball team that employs her (UMMC Ekaterinburg) has been doing. They have an obligation to her.
posted by Nelson at 8:53 AM on July 7, 2022 [12 favorites]