We need to talk about Kévin
August 6, 2022 5:23 AM Subscribe
French namesakes fight national mockery - Film project highlights stories of class-based prejudice over name made popular by Kevins Costner and Keegan.
It was once the most popular boy’s name in France, inspired in part by Hollywood films and boybands. But for the more than 150,000 French Kevins, the name has become so targeted by mockery, comic sketches and class prejudice that a new documentary is hoping to set the record straight and “save the Kevins”.
see also Kevinism: Kevinism and Chantalism (German: Kevinismus, Chantalismus) refers to the negative preconceptions German people have of Germans with certain trendy, exotic-sounding first names such as Kevin and other Anglo-American names (which are considered to be an indicator of a low social class) or the French female name Chantal.
see also Kevinism: Kevinism and Chantalism (German: Kevinismus, Chantalismus) refers to the negative preconceptions German people have of Germans with certain trendy, exotic-sounding first names such as Kevin and other Anglo-American names (which are considered to be an indicator of a low social class) or the French female name Chantal.
Chad and Karen are on their way from America to lend support.
posted by headspace at 5:51 AM on August 6, 2022 [59 favorites]
posted by headspace at 5:51 AM on August 6, 2022 [59 favorites]
In Denmark, it was Brian for a long while.
posted by mumimor at 6:12 AM on August 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 6:12 AM on August 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
It strikes me, somewhat alluded to but not directly remarked, the sentiment is driven by a sense of cultural betrayal? Like, an English name??
I get the vibe because it's present here but that cultural wound has a different connotation to it.
posted by cendawanita at 6:17 AM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I get the vibe because it's present here but that cultural wound has a different connotation to it.
posted by cendawanita at 6:17 AM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Little bit. America in particular is quite exceptional with its focus on novel and unique names (plus first names derived from surnames), and most countries in Europe have a pretty narrow catalogue of popular names. This has the side effect that many names of Christian saints in particular are "translateable", so a Jan in Poland is going to be addressed as John in English class and Jean in French class. It's been a culture shock how many people in the Anglosphere are attached to both their unique spelling and particular pronunciation.
In Poland it's Kevin, Brian and Jessica, or actually Kewin, Brajan and Dżesika because you're not allowed to register foreign names with foreign pronunciations unless you have actual foreign roots. All have the connotation of "Jersey shore" type of cultural milieu with parents who ape American popculture.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 6:28 AM on August 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
In Poland it's Kevin, Brian and Jessica, or actually Kewin, Brajan and Dżesika because you're not allowed to register foreign names with foreign pronunciations unless you have actual foreign roots. All have the connotation of "Jersey shore" type of cultural milieu with parents who ape American popculture.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 6:28 AM on August 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
Will send this to my friend Kévin, who told me "I'm from Lyon. Well actually, a town outside Lyon, Well actually a small village nearby, Well actually, a farm".
In Ireland:
Conor/Seán - your parents panicked and picked the first thing that came into their heads
Kathleen/Eileen/Maureen/Bridget - you must be at least 80 by now
Niamh/Fiona/Sinead/Ciara/Orla - standard "it'll do" names
Sorcha/Ríona/Bébhinn etc. - yes we get it, your parents are posh
Aisling - what an American would call 'basic': there's even a book called "Oh My God, What A Complete Aisling"
posted by kersplunk at 6:37 AM on August 6, 2022 [41 favorites]
In Ireland:
Conor/Seán - your parents panicked and picked the first thing that came into their heads
Kathleen/Eileen/Maureen/Bridget - you must be at least 80 by now
Niamh/Fiona/Sinead/Ciara/Orla - standard "it'll do" names
Sorcha/Ríona/Bébhinn etc. - yes we get it, your parents are posh
Aisling - what an American would call 'basic': there's even a book called "Oh My God, What A Complete Aisling"
posted by kersplunk at 6:37 AM on August 6, 2022 [41 favorites]
See also: /r/StoriesAboutKevin/
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:53 AM on August 6, 2022
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:53 AM on August 6, 2022
I was last in Ireland twenty years ago, where it seemed that every young man was a Gerry.
Recently I read a list of internet-borne English words forbidden by the Academie Francaise, together with substitutes. I can't find it now, but I do remember that the substitutes offered for the term "Karen" were "Nathalie, Veronique, Chantal." I wondered if those were really equivalent, but not speaking French, I couldn't say.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:54 AM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Recently I read a list of internet-borne English words forbidden by the Academie Francaise, together with substitutes. I can't find it now, but I do remember that the substitutes offered for the term "Karen" were "Nathalie, Veronique, Chantal." I wondered if those were really equivalent, but not speaking French, I couldn't say.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:54 AM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
For the Malay Muslims here, it used to be {standard Malay-Muslim name which is more South Asian/Persian in character than Arabic} then you derive your daily names out of it with an Anglo twist. (The daily name thing is something you must have noticed with Thais and Filipinos, as well as Indonesians but they tend to just as likely register those short daily names for their official ones). So a lot of Joes (Johari or Johan) or Kathys (Khadijah) or Ninas (we have a million names with the -ina ending). Something similar with our Hindu Indian community as well (the Christian ones will naturally already have one), so a lot of Sams (usually names like Sambanthan etc) as well.
It's within the non-Christian/Muslim Chinese and other indigenous community you see more of this straightforward aspiration/transfer. Honestly I see more Daniels than anything else, because then what's been happening is you get Anglo names being Sinized, so you can actually spell it in Chinese to fit your proper naming custom, never mind if it breaks the other customs (like every generation of the family having their own generational name IE a character that's present across that layer of kids). SOOOO a lot of Eileens.
Anyway the current batch of aspiring Malays are now acting out the bit where we want to be more Arabic than Persian/Indian in our Muslimness so we're taking a page out of that example, so there's a lot of: Rayyans (Ryan), Qistinas (Christina), Danials (Daniel). God forbid you point this out because to be so visibly white-aspiring??
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 AM on August 6, 2022 [20 favorites]
It's within the non-Christian/Muslim Chinese and other indigenous community you see more of this straightforward aspiration/transfer. Honestly I see more Daniels than anything else, because then what's been happening is you get Anglo names being Sinized, so you can actually spell it in Chinese to fit your proper naming custom, never mind if it breaks the other customs (like every generation of the family having their own generational name IE a character that's present across that layer of kids). SOOOO a lot of Eileens.
Anyway the current batch of aspiring Malays are now acting out the bit where we want to be more Arabic than Persian/Indian in our Muslimness so we're taking a page out of that example, so there's a lot of: Rayyans (Ryan), Qistinas (Christina), Danials (Daniel). God forbid you point this out because to be so visibly white-aspiring??
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 AM on August 6, 2022 [20 favorites]
People are dicks about names. My middle name is Jesse and there was a moment in my early life when it was floated that I might go by that name instead of my extremely 1970s-trendy first name. A trial run in my southern suburban 80s-era childhood revealed that said middle name was overly associated with Uncles ("Dukes of Hazard" and later "Full House"), Rick Springfield and mullets, and I was as endlessly mocked as the similarly maligned (in those days) Waynes, Duanes, and Tiffanys until I reverted back to original.
posted by thivaia at 7:04 AM on August 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 7:04 AM on August 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
In Chile, we have Brayan and Brayatan, as well as Yenifer, and ton of other misspelled anglo actor names.
posted by signal at 7:11 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 7:11 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Naming traditions vary a *lot*. In the US, there's mostly words which are only used for names, with increasing use of spelling variations and invented names. In Hebrew/Israel, names are actual words. In Thai, parents invent new names for their children.
I wouldn't be surprised if those real-word names in Hebrew still have cultural and status implications.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:36 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't be surprised if those real-word names in Hebrew still have cultural and status implications.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:36 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Another successful cultural export.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 7:47 AM on August 6, 2022
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 7:47 AM on August 6, 2022
At some point I assume Jennifer will get some kind of horrible shitty connotation, I'm just waiting for that to happen still. It feels inevitable. I suspect it'll have something to do with Jennifer Lopez/Affleck, most likely.
12 Once Normal Baby Names That Pop Culture Basically Ruined
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:06 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
12 Once Normal Baby Names That Pop Culture Basically Ruined
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:06 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
12 Once Normal Baby Names That Pop Culture Basically Ruined
I’m not sure why anyone would bother writing such a list if they’re not going to put Kermit on it. Or, to a lesser extent, Sweetums.
posted by aubilenon at 8:39 AM on August 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
I’m not sure why anyone would bother writing such a list if they’re not going to put Kermit on it. Or, to a lesser extent, Sweetums.
posted by aubilenon at 8:39 AM on August 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
As an American I thought Kevin was a name we had also already collectively decided to mock and am surprised to learn that might have been specific to me and my brother and the nation of France, to which we have no connection.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:19 AM on August 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 9:19 AM on August 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
People are dicks about names. - I wish I could favorite that a million times, and ask people to just ... stop ...
So my first name is Spanish but I am American (my father has a chunk of Spanish ancestry, but you would have to go back to about the 1700s to find it, so it does not really count culturally.) There is a good reason for the name though. My parents had a really hard time getting pregnant, and they were living in Spain for my father's work when it happened. My mother really felt she owed me to Spain so picked a Spanish name, and picked one with positive connotations. So, when I was first growing up, my name was exotic and obscure in the U.S. amongst all the Kims, Susans, Wendys, Patricias ...., then it started being a popular girl's name in a subset of the population, but I'm an outlier and you would not expect me to have the name based on a variety of factors from age to appearance. Later it became part of a pretty negative and dismissive meme. Now I hear it has dropped precipitously in popularity as a girl's name. I've just decided all along to own it, and I also don't shorten it, but I regularly get some odd reactions when people find out my name, and have to go into the whole story about how I wound up with my name more than I would like.
I really wish though that people would just let names be names; it seems particularly that names for women get used for negative stuff ... all the "Karen" and "Becky" and "Sharon" stuff gets really old, and just causes issues for perfectly nice people with (what were) perfectly good names.
Also, I hate all the naming of tech stuff, like virtual assistants, with female names and voices ... Siri ... Alexa, Cortana (which comes from a female character in a video game) ... really! You couldn't come up with a better idea than making technology your (gendered female) servants?!
Sigh ... obviously I have feelings on this subject.
posted by gudrun at 9:22 AM on August 6, 2022 [18 favorites]
So my first name is Spanish but I am American (my father has a chunk of Spanish ancestry, but you would have to go back to about the 1700s to find it, so it does not really count culturally.) There is a good reason for the name though. My parents had a really hard time getting pregnant, and they were living in Spain for my father's work when it happened. My mother really felt she owed me to Spain so picked a Spanish name, and picked one with positive connotations. So, when I was first growing up, my name was exotic and obscure in the U.S. amongst all the Kims, Susans, Wendys, Patricias ...., then it started being a popular girl's name in a subset of the population, but I'm an outlier and you would not expect me to have the name based on a variety of factors from age to appearance. Later it became part of a pretty negative and dismissive meme. Now I hear it has dropped precipitously in popularity as a girl's name. I've just decided all along to own it, and I also don't shorten it, but I regularly get some odd reactions when people find out my name, and have to go into the whole story about how I wound up with my name more than I would like.
I really wish though that people would just let names be names; it seems particularly that names for women get used for negative stuff ... all the "Karen" and "Becky" and "Sharon" stuff gets really old, and just causes issues for perfectly nice people with (what were) perfectly good names.
Also, I hate all the naming of tech stuff, like virtual assistants, with female names and voices ... Siri ... Alexa, Cortana (which comes from a female character in a video game) ... really! You couldn't come up with a better idea than making technology your (gendered female) servants?!
Sigh ... obviously I have feelings on this subject.
posted by gudrun at 9:22 AM on August 6, 2022 [18 favorites]
You couldn't come up with a better idea than making technology your (gendered female) servants?!
At least Samsung went with the more masculine "Bixby" for their agent.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:30 AM on August 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
At least Samsung went with the more masculine "Bixby" for their agent.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:30 AM on August 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
One of the weirder things about my Hippocrene Concise Sorbian-English dictionary (2000) is that it has the same sentence as an example for two separate words ("with", "wrong") three pages apart, and that sentence is:
Što je z Kevinom?
What's wrong with Kevin?
posted by Earthtopus at 9:46 AM on August 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Što je z Kevinom?
What's wrong with Kevin?
posted by Earthtopus at 9:46 AM on August 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think ‘Siri’ was always intended as a gender-neutral name. The original British English Siri was certainly a male voice — now you have a choice of course.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 9:48 AM on August 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 9:48 AM on August 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Some thoughts on names, provoked by this post.
- Kévin in France is reminding me of Fred in the US, where there's a Society of Fred for those given that name.
- 'Karen' was mentioned upthread, a similar trajectory, I think -- I grew up surrounded by Karens (I read somewhere it was the most popular girls' name of 1953) but now she's one of those archaic monikers, like Ethel or Hazel
- I've heard that gender-neutral names (z.b. Leslie, Robin, Pat, Kim, Stevie) aren't or weren't allowed in Germany -- still true?
I've been watching Gilmore Girls with my daughter and was a little taken aback when one of Emily's rotating cast of maids was named Siri - season 1, so 2003?
More on point, when I lived in England, "Kevin" was definitely looked down on as a name by the snooty crowd, considered lower class or chavvy, though I realize now this might have been residual anti-Irishness as well.
posted by Rumple at 10:31 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
More on point, when I lived in England, "Kevin" was definitely looked down on as a name by the snooty crowd, considered lower class or chavvy, though I realize now this might have been residual anti-Irishness as well.
posted by Rumple at 10:31 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
At least Samsung went with the more masculine "Bixby" for their agent.
Eh, with my age and cultural associations I don't use it because I'm afraid of getting it angry.
posted by LionIndex at 10:43 AM on August 6, 2022 [20 favorites]
Eh, with my age and cultural associations I don't use it because I'm afraid of getting it angry.
posted by LionIndex at 10:43 AM on August 6, 2022 [20 favorites]
There's a reddit subculture, inspired by this 8 year old post on a "Kevin" in which "Kevin" is shorthand for unbelievable idiocy.
See for example the Stories About Kevin subreddit.
posted by Schmucko at 10:48 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
See for example the Stories About Kevin subreddit.
posted by Schmucko at 10:48 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
If you've never looked up your name on Urban Dictionary, do yourself a favor and check it out. It's sort of like a horoscope in that it might seem super accurate or not, but it's a lot of fun...
posted by chaz at 10:54 AM on August 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by chaz at 10:54 AM on August 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
My name has an association due to Eminem for which I’m grateful because it could be way worse and is after all pretty accurate.
posted by sjswitzer at 11:03 AM on August 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 11:03 AM on August 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
One of my closest friends is a Kevin who is often the brunt of many jokes (all good natured and he takes it well). A bunch of us took a trip to Japan in the before times. We were sitting in a tiny bar near Shinjuku with lots of crazy stuff stuck to the walls. I looked up and saw a little sticker that said "Everyone hates Kevin" with a little symbol. We all had a laugh but later Kevin did some internet sleuthing and found out that it was from a group of Brits who were on a stag trip and had made up stickers and t-shirts. The end result was that the Brits had a spare shirt and mailed it to him. He proudly wears it whenever possible.
posted by cirhosis at 11:17 AM on August 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by cirhosis at 11:17 AM on August 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
My name tells you that I grew up Catholic in the Midwest. I should have started using my middle name years ago, but somehow I always felt like that was fake. I attended 12 years of Catholic schools in southern Ohio, so it's accurate. My sister's name is common for our age group and everyone I've met with that name has the same middle name.
As a parent, it's quite fraught, and my ex- got his choice by naming our child while I was still quite drugged.
posted by theora55 at 11:21 AM on August 6, 2022
As a parent, it's quite fraught, and my ex- got his choice by naming our child while I was still quite drugged.
posted by theora55 at 11:21 AM on August 6, 2022
Što je z Kevinom?
Given that it’s a Sorbian-English dictionary, I hope it is specifically asking about Kevin Sorbo.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:33 AM on August 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Given that it’s a Sorbian-English dictionary, I hope it is specifically asking about Kevin Sorbo.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:33 AM on August 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
I knew a guy who was a huuuuuuge Star Wars fan. Like, "devoted half his big home to memorabilia" huge. So, when he and his wife had a boy, he went for it and named the poor kid Anakin. Not Luke. Not the kid's middle name. His first name. Fucking Anakin.
Mind you, this was before the prequels ever saw the light of day, but still. Poor kid.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:47 AM on August 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
Mind you, this was before the prequels ever saw the light of day, but still. Poor kid.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:47 AM on August 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
This resonates. Regardless of not being from Europe but from Canada, I am always taken aback when I meet a French Canadian Kevin. I have a similar reaction when I meet one named Liam, Ethan, Aidan, or Austin (I don't make fun of them but I do wonder about their parents). A friend named their kid Simon and every English Canadian we know thought this was the worst idea ever and was the equivalent of naming their kid Semen. Probably why we went with an old school French name for our kid. Speaking of which - Guy, as in the short form for Guillaume [French equivalent of William] pronounced Ghee, seems common still despite what that Lifehacker culturally dead name list says. Probably not with Anglophones though.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:55 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:55 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Though I think we can all agree Nigel is the worst.
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:08 PM on August 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:08 PM on August 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Stats Canada Reports Not One Baby Has Been Named “Karen” Since November 13 2019 (satire, in case it wasn’t obvious)
posted by Paragon at 12:11 PM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Paragon at 12:11 PM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
My partner works in the birthing field and in many midwives offices they list the names of the babies born over a couple months. Karen almost never appears on these boards.
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:13 PM on August 6, 2022
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:13 PM on August 6, 2022
Not only in France, as evidenced by my favorite soccer player to hear mentioned, the Italian forward Kevin Lasagna.
posted by Kattullus at 12:25 PM on August 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 12:25 PM on August 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
I’d you’ve never looked up your name on Urban Dictionary
Well that was a trip. Of some sort.
posted by eviemath at 1:05 PM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well that was a trip. Of some sort.
posted by eviemath at 1:05 PM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
At some point I assume Jennifer will get some kind of horrible shitty connotation, I'm just waiting for that to happen still.
I'm 45, so I just think that Jennifer is incredibly common, along with Sarah and Michael.
What I was surprised by is that Amelia is currently in the top 10 for recent baby names in the US. But I can't help but associate the name with Amelia Bedelia (not the most aspirational figure).
posted by jb at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm 45, so I just think that Jennifer is incredibly common, along with Sarah and Michael.
What I was surprised by is that Amelia is currently in the top 10 for recent baby names in the US. But I can't help but associate the name with Amelia Bedelia (not the most aspirational figure).
posted by jb at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Stats Canada Reports Not One Baby Has Been Named “Karen” Since November 13 2019 (satire, in case it wasn’t obvious)
Not Satire: out of the 39,322 babies born in British Columbia between Jan. 1 and Dec. 17 2021, just two were named Karen.
posted by Rumple at 3:12 PM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Not Satire: out of the 39,322 babies born in British Columbia between Jan. 1 and Dec. 17 2021, just two were named Karen.
posted by Rumple at 3:12 PM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Bart, Cart, Dart, E-art... Nope, can't see any problem with that!
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:15 PM on August 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:15 PM on August 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
The world seems to no longer be making Heathers, unbelievable to my 15- or 20-year-old self.
posted by riverlife at 4:21 PM on August 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by riverlife at 4:21 PM on August 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
> Though I think we can all agree Nigel is the worst
chiz chiz chiz
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:31 PM on August 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
chiz chiz chiz
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:31 PM on August 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Speaking of Canada, do the Québeçois also deride Kévins?
posted by Morpeth at 4:35 PM on August 6, 2022
posted by Morpeth at 4:35 PM on August 6, 2022
At least Samsung went with the more masculine "Bixby" for their agent.
Eh, as someone who studies gender, the evolution of nonbinary/trans communities, and cultural ideas about androgyny, I'd categorize "Bixby" as in the name group moving pretty rapidly from a prior masculine-of-center position, to a current "gender neutral" position, and possibly soon to be in the feminine-of-center position. This has happened a lot to names in the U.S. over the past century, with ever-increasing rapidity.
Once upon a time, the names Beverley and Hilary and Meredith were "boys names," but they've been so thoroughly swapped across binary genders that few parents giving their presumed girls these names today do so with intent to invoke androgyny for them. But today there are a substantial number parents who do seem to want to evoke a bit of masculine cachet for their presumed daughters (or even prepare for the possibility of a trans and/or nonbinary child--but almost exclusively only when naming children assigned female at birth, and rarely for their children assigned male). That's why if you look at popular baby names lists (like the one maintained by the Social Security Agency), you see on the "girls" list today a host of Quinns and Sloans, Peytons and Parkers, Presleys and Rileys and Finleys and Marleys. These names have all rapidly made the transition from the boys' side of the names list to the girls' side, being dropped like a hot potato from the lists of most prospective American parents anticipating a son. Patriarchy and fragile masculinity combine to quickly accrue girl-cooties to androgynous names . . .
Nonbinary people coming out and changing their names may choose names from the "popular unisex baby names" lists used by parents, too. But a good number of these nonbinary people are under-30s, below the typical parenting demographic in age. So their name choices are often distinctive from those being given babies by parents. "Edgier," "trendier," "cooler"--they choose names that still have genderflexible cachet, in contrast to names like Kinley or Sydney that parents still consider "androgynous" but that are really only given to children assigned female at birth now. There are a series of trends among young adult nonbinary folks changing their names (e.g. tree names and mineral names), and one of these trends I've noticed is names with an X in them--Nox, Pax, Lexx, Onyx, Axis, Xael. It's possible the use of "X" as a nonbinary gender marker on some ID today relates to this trend. I myself have encountered a nonbinary person named Bixby. So it's definitely being perceived by folks as an androgynous name in the middle of the gender continuum today. Though it has assonances with names like Shelby and Bailey that are now almost never given to male-assigned-at-birth children anymore, and I suspect that it may very well end up in that category as well, with the rest of the thoroughly-feminized-once-androgynous-and-before-that-masculine names.
posted by DrMew at 5:12 PM on August 6, 2022 [52 favorites]
Eh, as someone who studies gender, the evolution of nonbinary/trans communities, and cultural ideas about androgyny, I'd categorize "Bixby" as in the name group moving pretty rapidly from a prior masculine-of-center position, to a current "gender neutral" position, and possibly soon to be in the feminine-of-center position. This has happened a lot to names in the U.S. over the past century, with ever-increasing rapidity.
Once upon a time, the names Beverley and Hilary and Meredith were "boys names," but they've been so thoroughly swapped across binary genders that few parents giving their presumed girls these names today do so with intent to invoke androgyny for them. But today there are a substantial number parents who do seem to want to evoke a bit of masculine cachet for their presumed daughters (or even prepare for the possibility of a trans and/or nonbinary child--but almost exclusively only when naming children assigned female at birth, and rarely for their children assigned male). That's why if you look at popular baby names lists (like the one maintained by the Social Security Agency), you see on the "girls" list today a host of Quinns and Sloans, Peytons and Parkers, Presleys and Rileys and Finleys and Marleys. These names have all rapidly made the transition from the boys' side of the names list to the girls' side, being dropped like a hot potato from the lists of most prospective American parents anticipating a son. Patriarchy and fragile masculinity combine to quickly accrue girl-cooties to androgynous names . . .
Nonbinary people coming out and changing their names may choose names from the "popular unisex baby names" lists used by parents, too. But a good number of these nonbinary people are under-30s, below the typical parenting demographic in age. So their name choices are often distinctive from those being given babies by parents. "Edgier," "trendier," "cooler"--they choose names that still have genderflexible cachet, in contrast to names like Kinley or Sydney that parents still consider "androgynous" but that are really only given to children assigned female at birth now. There are a series of trends among young adult nonbinary folks changing their names (e.g. tree names and mineral names), and one of these trends I've noticed is names with an X in them--Nox, Pax, Lexx, Onyx, Axis, Xael. It's possible the use of "X" as a nonbinary gender marker on some ID today relates to this trend. I myself have encountered a nonbinary person named Bixby. So it's definitely being perceived by folks as an androgynous name in the middle of the gender continuum today. Though it has assonances with names like Shelby and Bailey that are now almost never given to male-assigned-at-birth children anymore, and I suspect that it may very well end up in that category as well, with the rest of the thoroughly-feminized-once-androgynous-and-before-that-masculine names.
posted by DrMew at 5:12 PM on August 6, 2022 [52 favorites]
Urban Dictionary is shockingly accurate about my name. Good job Urban Dictionarians!
posted by thatwhichfalls at 6:13 PM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 6:13 PM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
It strikes me, somewhat alluded to but not directly remarked, the sentiment is driven by a sense of cultural betrayal? Like, an English name?
It's not the Englishness (or Americanness) of the name that matters here. It's the notion (which remains to be proven) that lower-class people are more likely to name their kids after personalities or characters from TV shows, movies, and popular music, all things perceived as low-brow entertainment and thus linked to lower-class status. So naming your kid after a recognizable pop culture item is seen as trashy (by people who get to decide what "trashy" is). Note that this was in the late 1980s-early 1990s before prestige TV made TV fashionable, and it came at a time when naming restrictions were lifted in France (the choice of a given name used to be limited to those of the saints in the French calendar and of historical people).
The Kevins peaked in 1991, with 13300 born that year in France, and it was the top name for boys from 1989 to 1994. The Guardian article says that the name was inspired by Kevin Costner (1987, The Untouchables), Kevin MacAllister (1990, Home Alone), and Kevin Richardson (1993, The Backstreet Boys). However, the rise of the French Kevins started the mid-1970s: in 1980, there were already about 1100 French kids named Kevin born that year (there were also 900 Steve and 900 Jimmy). 4800 Kevins were born in 1986: while it is certain that Kevin Costner's popularity was a major driver, it does not explain why the name started its rise before Costner became a worldwide star (Silverado was not such a hit). In contrast, the (small and short-lived) rise of the Pam(é)las in 1982 can be easily mapped to the huge success of Dallas (thanks to its character Pamela Ewing), which began to be aired in France at the end of 1981. Was there a forgotten Kevin popular in France before 1987? There's Kevin Kline in Sophie's Choice, which was moderately successful in France in 1983, but I doubt that it contributed to French Kevinism. The association of Kevin with lower-class status is the usual explanation but I feel that there's some piece missing and the popularity of Kevin thus remains a little mysterious to me.
posted by elgilito at 6:46 PM on August 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
It's not the Englishness (or Americanness) of the name that matters here. It's the notion (which remains to be proven) that lower-class people are more likely to name their kids after personalities or characters from TV shows, movies, and popular music, all things perceived as low-brow entertainment and thus linked to lower-class status. So naming your kid after a recognizable pop culture item is seen as trashy (by people who get to decide what "trashy" is). Note that this was in the late 1980s-early 1990s before prestige TV made TV fashionable, and it came at a time when naming restrictions were lifted in France (the choice of a given name used to be limited to those of the saints in the French calendar and of historical people).
The Kevins peaked in 1991, with 13300 born that year in France, and it was the top name for boys from 1989 to 1994. The Guardian article says that the name was inspired by Kevin Costner (1987, The Untouchables), Kevin MacAllister (1990, Home Alone), and Kevin Richardson (1993, The Backstreet Boys). However, the rise of the French Kevins started the mid-1970s: in 1980, there were already about 1100 French kids named Kevin born that year (there were also 900 Steve and 900 Jimmy). 4800 Kevins were born in 1986: while it is certain that Kevin Costner's popularity was a major driver, it does not explain why the name started its rise before Costner became a worldwide star (Silverado was not such a hit). In contrast, the (small and short-lived) rise of the Pam(é)las in 1982 can be easily mapped to the huge success of Dallas (thanks to its character Pamela Ewing), which began to be aired in France at the end of 1981. Was there a forgotten Kevin popular in France before 1987? There's Kevin Kline in Sophie's Choice, which was moderately successful in France in 1983, but I doubt that it contributed to French Kevinism. The association of Kevin with lower-class status is the usual explanation but I feel that there's some piece missing and the popularity of Kevin thus remains a little mysterious to me.
posted by elgilito at 6:46 PM on August 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
> Speaking of Canada, do the Québécois also deride Kévins?
Oh yes. Often spelled as Keveune for comic effect, e.g. this tweet from Guy A. Lepage (a major talk show host in Quebec).
posted by zadcat at 6:51 PM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oh yes. Often spelled as Keveune for comic effect, e.g. this tweet from Guy A. Lepage (a major talk show host in Quebec).
posted by zadcat at 6:51 PM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
At least Samsung went with the more masculine "Bixby" for their agent.
And in doing so torpedoed from birth the life of any child named so. Bixby: C'thuluvian ilk of Autocorrect.
posted by y2karl at 7:01 PM on August 6, 2022
And in doing so torpedoed from birth the life of any child named so. Bixby: C'thuluvian ilk of Autocorrect.
posted by y2karl at 7:01 PM on August 6, 2022
Man, this thread is giving me a lot of fodder.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 7:23 PM on August 6, 2022
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 7:23 PM on August 6, 2022
Nox
I keep seeing Armin Shimerman in a Noir Desir Smock.
posted by clavdivs at 7:31 PM on August 6, 2022
I keep seeing Armin Shimerman in a Noir Desir Smock.
posted by clavdivs at 7:31 PM on August 6, 2022
It's his fodder got Kevin into this mess.
posted by 7segment at 7:38 PM on August 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by 7segment at 7:38 PM on August 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I have a name that has a connotation among certain very online communities. And their idea of how people with that name are doesn't match me at all. I knew a Karen who was a lovely person. The whole idea of attaching ideas of how someone is based on the name they were given just doesn't sit right with me. No one is responsible for the name they were given at birth. That's just what their parents liked.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:41 PM on August 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:41 PM on August 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
"...it does not explain why the name started its rise before Costner became a worldwide star."Does the notion put forward in the article that Kevin Keegan was an early inspiration not hold any water? Peak Keegan would have been mid to late '70s when he won the Ballon d'Or twice.
posted by theory at 8:56 PM on August 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I must have read about it before but until this thread I don't think I 'got' how name restrictions are an actual thing. C'est bizarre pour moi but anyway, are there any French names that became popular through the tv/pop culture that're similarly derided by the tastemakers?
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on August 6, 2022
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on August 6, 2022
My Celtic/Scottish/French Canadian name is synonymous with nerd and has been declining in popularity since the 1920s. So unpopular now that no one in British Columbia has been assigned my first name at birth in 25 years; less than a thousand world wide last year. So I can really feel kinship with all the Karens and Kevins who are judged for what has to be one the stupidest stereotype types ever and will soon have a name that also codes old as young people aren't sharing their names any more.
More hilariously though is my spouse has both a rare name and one that apparently codes African-American though she is neither. Which has lead to a few "I thought you was black man" moments when people have known her name before they met her.
posted by Mitheral at 9:10 PM on August 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
More hilariously though is my spouse has both a rare name and one that apparently codes African-American though she is neither. Which has lead to a few "I thought you was black man" moments when people have known her name before they met her.
posted by Mitheral at 9:10 PM on August 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I can run into two other Jennifer's just in one aisle of the grocery store. I know like...5-6 Sarah's that have to be nicknamed by their hair to tell them apart in conversation. I've way lost track of Michael's.
Common names are a pain except for anonymity and finding your name on products, if it's not already sold out.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:28 PM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Common names are a pain except for anonymity and finding your name on products, if it's not already sold out.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:28 PM on August 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
My partner teaches classes of about 10 to 12 people and every year she has 2 or 3 classes where all the millennial women have some variation of Catherine as their first name.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:44 PM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:44 PM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I’d you’ve never looked up your name on Urban Dictionary
Thank you. I was vastly amused. Apparently my name has absurdly positive connotations.
And also this, which cracks me up, for some reason:
A fucking Russian who speaks Russian.
posted by Zumbador at 10:09 PM on August 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thank you. I was vastly amused. Apparently my name has absurdly positive connotations.
And also this, which cracks me up, for some reason:
A fucking Russian who speaks Russian.
posted by Zumbador at 10:09 PM on August 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Speaking of Canada, do the Québeçois also deride Kévins?
Oh que oui.
During the trucker occupation of Ottawa copycats tried to pull the same thing in Quebec City. There were 3 convoys coming from different places … all headed by a freaking Kevin (with different spellings if I remember well). It of course became known as ‘le convois des Kevins’.
I’m truly sorry if you’re named Kevin, you may well be a good person but your name is like a curse.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 10:24 PM on August 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Oh que oui.
During the trucker occupation of Ottawa copycats tried to pull the same thing in Quebec City. There were 3 convoys coming from different places … all headed by a freaking Kevin (with different spellings if I remember well). It of course became known as ‘le convois des Kevins’.
I’m truly sorry if you’re named Kevin, you may well be a good person but your name is like a curse.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 10:24 PM on August 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Metafiler: you may well be a good person but your name is like a curse.
posted by mephisjo at 10:35 PM on August 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mephisjo at 10:35 PM on August 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Does the notion put forward in the article that Kevin Keegan was an early inspiration not hold any water? Peak Keegan would have been mid to late '70s when he won the Ballon d'Or twice.
I missed that! I had never heard of the guy before today, so this was a "It doesn't look like anything to me" moment I guess. It's still strange that French parents would name their kid after an English footballer who did not even play for a French team, but the timeline is indeed right, with Keegan's emergence in 1978-1979 (Footballer of the Year, Bundesliga title) coinciding with the first batches of French Kevins. So it could have snowballed from there.
are there any French names that became popular through the tv/pop culture that're similarly derided by the tastemakers?
Marie-Chantal is the only one that I can think of, but the reverse happened. Dancer and self-proclaimed snob Jacques Chazot wrote a couple of books in the 1950s where he used the name Marie-Chantal for a character of airheaded bourgeois woman, and the name was later used in countless jokes featuring a naive bourgeoise from the Parisian upper classes, with recognizable speech patterns and gesturing, until antonomasia kicked in and Marie-Chantal became synonymous with this type of character. Looking at the charts, the name rose steadily in the 1940s, peaked in 1956, when Chazot published his book, and fell down a cliff immediately. Amusingly Chantal is part of the Kevinism in Germany, the name must be cursed.
posted by elgilito at 11:16 PM on August 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
I missed that! I had never heard of the guy before today, so this was a "It doesn't look like anything to me" moment I guess. It's still strange that French parents would name their kid after an English footballer who did not even play for a French team, but the timeline is indeed right, with Keegan's emergence in 1978-1979 (Footballer of the Year, Bundesliga title) coinciding with the first batches of French Kevins. So it could have snowballed from there.
are there any French names that became popular through the tv/pop culture that're similarly derided by the tastemakers?
Marie-Chantal is the only one that I can think of, but the reverse happened. Dancer and self-proclaimed snob Jacques Chazot wrote a couple of books in the 1950s where he used the name Marie-Chantal for a character of airheaded bourgeois woman, and the name was later used in countless jokes featuring a naive bourgeoise from the Parisian upper classes, with recognizable speech patterns and gesturing, until antonomasia kicked in and Marie-Chantal became synonymous with this type of character. Looking at the charts, the name rose steadily in the 1940s, peaked in 1956, when Chazot published his book, and fell down a cliff immediately. Amusingly Chantal is part of the Kevinism in Germany, the name must be cursed.
posted by elgilito at 11:16 PM on August 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
America in particular is quite exceptional with its focus on novel and unique names
Yeeeeah... it's probably worth noting that within the US, those "novel and unique" names are a minefield of cultural and class signifiers. (You don't see a ton of them at the higher echelons of power and social hierarchy.)
The US doesn't have written rules in the same way that e.g. Poland does about what first names you can choose for a kid, but the lack of formal rules shouldn't be taken as a sign that very significant social rules don't exist. Because oh, they very much do.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:29 AM on August 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
Yeeeeah... it's probably worth noting that within the US, those "novel and unique" names are a minefield of cultural and class signifiers. (You don't see a ton of them at the higher echelons of power and social hierarchy.)
The US doesn't have written rules in the same way that e.g. Poland does about what first names you can choose for a kid, but the lack of formal rules shouldn't be taken as a sign that very significant social rules don't exist. Because oh, they very much do.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:29 AM on August 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
I read about someone who gave up on fantasy football when he discovered a team of Kevins someone had assembled was doing significantly better than his carefully-crafted squad.
posted by Phanx at 1:16 AM on August 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 1:16 AM on August 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
elgilito: It's still strange that French parents would name their kid after an English footballer who did not even play for a French team
While following your local league was still the norm in the 1970s, the global rise to prominence of the English soccer league was well on its way by that point. I’ll note that football has been heavily coded as a lower-class pursuit in France, so it’s not just the Englishness of Kevin that attracts the ire of middle-class snobs, but its link to people who the snobs consider uncultured and low-status.
posted by Kattullus at 3:52 AM on August 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
While following your local league was still the norm in the 1970s, the global rise to prominence of the English soccer league was well on its way by that point. I’ll note that football has been heavily coded as a lower-class pursuit in France, so it’s not just the Englishness of Kevin that attracts the ire of middle-class snobs, but its link to people who the snobs consider uncultured and low-status.
posted by Kattullus at 3:52 AM on August 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
The world seems to no longer be making Heathers, unbelievable to my 15- or 20-year-old self.
Front-end Gen-X here, born in the waning days of the sixties. I first recall seeing a list of “last years 100 most common names for babies of each sex” at maybe 19 or 20. I was startled as I knew eight women in my cohort named Cindy or Cynthia and it had fallen out of the top hundred two decades later.
On the other hand a friend of mine in school was named Xavier and he was always the only kid by the name anyone had ever met. These days Xavier has a teenaged son and he has noted to me how many times he has heard his own name being called by parents to their little Xaviers on the playground, which situation he could not have imagined for the first 35 years of his life.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:58 AM on August 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Front-end Gen-X here, born in the waning days of the sixties. I first recall seeing a list of “last years 100 most common names for babies of each sex” at maybe 19 or 20. I was startled as I knew eight women in my cohort named Cindy or Cynthia and it had fallen out of the top hundred two decades later.
On the other hand a friend of mine in school was named Xavier and he was always the only kid by the name anyone had ever met. These days Xavier has a teenaged son and he has noted to me how many times he has heard his own name being called by parents to their little Xaviers on the playground, which situation he could not have imagined for the first 35 years of his life.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:58 AM on August 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
I remember when I was a kid, there was a saying among a certain class of people about how you should never name your kid something "unique" (always said very unpleasantly) that wouldn't sound right with "US Supreme Court Justice" in front of it. I'm so delighted in the face of that bullshit that we now have US Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. And I hope that France ends up with a president named Kevin.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:03 AM on August 7, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 6:03 AM on August 7, 2022 [25 favorites]
Chad and Karen are on their way from America to lend support.
The internet is coming back around on Chad. Over the last ~3-4 years that name has morphed from the imaginary target of incel rage into a synonym for "mensch." Make of that what you will.
posted by cubeb at 6:03 AM on August 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
The internet is coming back around on Chad. Over the last ~3-4 years that name has morphed from the imaginary target of incel rage into a synonym for "mensch." Make of that what you will.
posted by cubeb at 6:03 AM on August 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
The most unfortunate name I can think of is to be named Macarena anywhere on Earth outside of Spain. That's gotta be a fucking nightmare
posted by cubeb at 6:08 AM on August 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by cubeb at 6:08 AM on August 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
In French, but it explains the Quebec thing about Kevin.
posted by zadcat at 8:53 AM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by zadcat at 8:53 AM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Nice thread title, btw. I might have gone for “Il faut qu'on parle de Kevin,” but chacun à son goat, I suppose.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:34 AM on August 7, 2022
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:34 AM on August 7, 2022
ricochet biscuit, the thread title is straight from The Guardian article! I can't claim to be as creative as their editors :)
posted by bitteschoen at 9:47 AM on August 7, 2022
posted by bitteschoen at 9:47 AM on August 7, 2022
...you’ve never looked up your name on Urban Dictionary
Just did for the first time -that's outrageous!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 10:21 AM on August 7, 2022
Just did for the first time -that's outrageous!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 10:21 AM on August 7, 2022
Is there a German word for the frowny face you get after reading the impossibly positive Urban Dictionary entry for your name and realizing that you don’t live up to the name—like not at all?
You know what, scratch that. Hi, my name is Ben, and I’m handsome, and girls find me mysterious. I’m tough, but I’m like a “human computer,” and I have (checks notes) a “huge fucken cock!!!!”
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 12:49 PM on August 7, 2022
You know what, scratch that. Hi, my name is Ben, and I’m handsome, and girls find me mysterious. I’m tough, but I’m like a “human computer,” and I have (checks notes) a “huge fucken cock!!!!”
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 12:49 PM on August 7, 2022
The most unfortunate name I can think of is to be named Macarena anywhere on Earth outside of Spain. That's gotta be a fucking nightmare
Slate's One Year: 1995 podcast did an episode on The Macarena in which they found and interviewed a woman named Macarena that was a hip 20-something in Miami when that song came out. She made it sound like it was exhausting.
posted by mmascolino at 1:26 PM on August 7, 2022
Slate's One Year: 1995 podcast did an episode on The Macarena in which they found and interviewed a woman named Macarena that was a hip 20-something in Miami when that song came out. She made it sound like it was exhausting.
posted by mmascolino at 1:26 PM on August 7, 2022
"It strikes me, somewhat alluded to but not directly remarked, the sentiment is driven by a sense of cultural betrayal? Like, an English name??"
From my personal understanding of Kevinism in Germany, it's not the English in itself, but more like:
It's obvious that the parents named their kid after a (perceived: third-rate) pop culture person. This is what makes people look down on the parents.
The fact that the name is English just makes it immediately noticeable.
posted by uncle harold at 2:06 PM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
From my personal understanding of Kevinism in Germany, it's not the English in itself, but more like:
It's obvious that the parents named their kid after a (perceived: third-rate) pop culture person. This is what makes people look down on the parents.
The fact that the name is English just makes it immediately noticeable.
posted by uncle harold at 2:06 PM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sometimes the many different ways human beings find to look down on each other makes me very sad.
(I appreciated the links and the discussion, though.)
posted by rpfields at 2:46 PM on August 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
(I appreciated the links and the discussion, though.)
posted by rpfields at 2:46 PM on August 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Is there a German word for the frowny face you get after reading the impossibly positive Urban Dictionary entry for your name and realizing that you don’t live up to the name—like not at all?
Heh; you've reminded me of something a while back, when everyone was first glomming onto the "Karen" meme and there were some news pieces circulating about "what's the deal with 'Karen' all of a sudden"; someone on Twitter speculated about what name to use for the opposite of Karen, and used my own name.
...It.....tracks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:45 PM on August 7, 2022
Heh; you've reminded me of something a while back, when everyone was first glomming onto the "Karen" meme and there were some news pieces circulating about "what's the deal with 'Karen' all of a sudden"; someone on Twitter speculated about what name to use for the opposite of Karen, and used my own name.
...It.....tracks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:45 PM on August 7, 2022
A befuddled Brit here, with a question:
"America in particular is quite exceptional with its focus on novel and unique names (plus first names derived from surnames)"
I know it now happens in the UK, too, but I have never understood its origin / the reasoning behind it. Can anyone explain it for me, please?
(Personally, I think "Tucker Carlson" must be Cockney rhyming slang, but that is a separate issue...)
As an example, "Carter" would never occur to me as a given name, but Wikipedia lists a bunch of them, and some random baby naming site says it was in the top 25 names in 2004.
Apologies to everyone called Carter, and almost everyone called Tucker.
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 4:22 PM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
"America in particular is quite exceptional with its focus on novel and unique names (plus first names derived from surnames)"
I know it now happens in the UK, too, but I have never understood its origin / the reasoning behind it. Can anyone explain it for me, please?
(Personally, I think "Tucker Carlson" must be Cockney rhyming slang, but that is a separate issue...)
As an example, "Carter" would never occur to me as a given name, but Wikipedia lists a bunch of them, and some random baby naming site says it was in the top 25 names in 2004.
Apologies to everyone called Carter, and almost everyone called Tucker.
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 4:22 PM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
At least here in the Southeastern US, a very traditional thing is to give a child (regardless of gender, but I think it's most common for girls) the mother's maiden name as a first name. Since the patriarchal family last name tradition continues, it's a way to honor the connection to the mother's family. In some cases, it is definitely about the mother's family name being impressive and worthy of showing off. More modernly, one use is as a way to get a gender neutral name that still has a family connection.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:55 PM on August 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:55 PM on August 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
(My middle name is my mom's paternal grandmother's family name. My mom grew up very close to that part of her family.)
posted by hydropsyche at 4:56 PM on August 7, 2022
posted by hydropsyche at 4:56 PM on August 7, 2022
... if you look at popular baby names lists, you see on the "girls" list today a host of Quinns and Sloans, Peytons and Parkers, Presleys and Rileys and Finleys and Marleys. These names have all rapidly made the transition from the boys' side of the names list to the girls' side
Presleys and Rileys and Peytons and Parkers
All these were previously masculine markers
Finleys and Marleys and Sloans and Quinns
These are a few of my favorite things
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:41 PM on August 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Presleys and Rileys and Peytons and Parkers
All these were previously masculine markers
Finleys and Marleys and Sloans and Quinns
These are a few of my favorite things
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:41 PM on August 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
It could be worse. I had a teacher in primary school whose two first names, I discovered later when I was old enough to understand the significance, were 'Adolfo Benito'.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:07 PM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:07 PM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I hate all the naming of tech stuff, like virtual assistants, with female names and voices ... Siri ... Alexa
After the complaints when a contestant named Alexa was on Jeopardy recently, I spent time scrolling through the Twitter feeds of a few Alexas who are fighting back, and think they make a very good case that Amazon has fucked up their lives enough that it should change the damn name already.
posted by mediareport at 7:59 PM on August 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
After the complaints when a contestant named Alexa was on Jeopardy recently, I spent time scrolling through the Twitter feeds of a few Alexas who are fighting back, and think they make a very good case that Amazon has fucked up their lives enough that it should change the damn name already.
posted by mediareport at 7:59 PM on August 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
As far as people born this century, if I think of a generic "Kevin" he's going to be Asian American.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:08 PM on August 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:08 PM on August 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I had a teacher in primary school whose two first names, I discovered later when I was old enough to understand the significance, were 'Adolfo Benito'.
There was a local actor and theatre stalwart here, who totally did live thru the years in question, and still went ahead and named his sons Muhammad Hitler and Ahmad Yamashita iirc. Anyway one of those guys goes by another name since he's also a director nowadays.
posted by cendawanita at 8:44 PM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
There was a local actor and theatre stalwart here, who totally did live thru the years in question, and still went ahead and named his sons Muhammad Hitler and Ahmad Yamashita iirc. Anyway one of those guys goes by another name since he's also a director nowadays.
posted by cendawanita at 8:44 PM on August 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I must have read about it before but until this thread I don't think I 'got' how name restrictions are an actual thing.
Here's a (slightly older) article about how the system works in Germany. The main idea is to prevent names like "X AE A-XII" or "Adolfo Benito" as they aren't really fair to the kid in question. As it says "The constitutional right of the parents to name their child as they please is only limited if the name choice could adversely affect the well-being of the child, for example by exposing the child to ridicule or by being offensive. "
Of course, in practice, it's more complicated and, I'm sure, pretty racist on occasion, because what's viewed as acceptable depends on the officials involved and their prejudices. Generally, it's easier if you can prove that the name you've chosen is in (wide-ish) use as a name, but even then sometimes it may require going before a judge. (e.g. Fanta).
posted by scorbet at 3:44 AM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Here's a (slightly older) article about how the system works in Germany. The main idea is to prevent names like "X AE A-XII" or "Adolfo Benito" as they aren't really fair to the kid in question. As it says "The constitutional right of the parents to name their child as they please is only limited if the name choice could adversely affect the well-being of the child, for example by exposing the child to ridicule or by being offensive. "
Of course, in practice, it's more complicated and, I'm sure, pretty racist on occasion, because what's viewed as acceptable depends on the officials involved and their prejudices. Generally, it's easier if you can prove that the name you've chosen is in (wide-ish) use as a name, but even then sometimes it may require going before a judge. (e.g. Fanta).
posted by scorbet at 3:44 AM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I know it now happens in the UK, too, but I have never understood its origin / the reasoning behind it. Can anyone explain it for me, please?It's a mostly-upper-class naming convention that has trickled down. So the first people named Whitney were members of the illustrious Whitney family. (I once had a job as a receptionist in an office where I sometimes dealt with Eli Whitney Debevoise II, who goes by Whitney Debevoise personally and professionally. He's the great-something-grandson of the original Eli Whitney, and he truly seemed like something out of an Edith Wharton novel.) In the US, names tend to travel down the class scale, so at some point ordinary people started naming their kids Whitney because it seemed like a pretty and classy name, not because they were members of the Whitney family. Of course, to upper-class people, this is about the tackiest thing a person could do: it's like the genealogical version of stolen valor to pretend you're a Whitney when you're really just some prole whose family names aren't distinguished at all. But nobody really cares what the Edith Wharton set thinks, so now all sorts of people use all sorts of last names as first names. There's a leftover air of classiness about having a last name as a first name, even if people don't consciously associate it with the upper-class naming convention anymore.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:06 AM on August 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
There's a leftover air of classiness about having a last name as a first name ...
When I was young, that went along with snobbery. As someone else mentioned, I'm from the part of the South where young ladies of good families often got their mother's maiden names as first names. Sometimes they would be supplemented with Mary, Ann, or some other brief name, none of which would be shortened even on the playground ("MARY PEYton! MARY GRAY! PARKER ANN!" etc.) I associated this with the most thoughtless kind of girl, but now that you just don't know where the last name as the first name is coming from, I've let go of that. (I do notice that POC make fun of this kind of handle as a stereotypical white-girl name, which: fair, fair.)
posted by Countess Elena at 6:15 AM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
When I was young, that went along with snobbery. As someone else mentioned, I'm from the part of the South where young ladies of good families often got their mother's maiden names as first names. Sometimes they would be supplemented with Mary, Ann, or some other brief name, none of which would be shortened even on the playground ("MARY PEYton! MARY GRAY! PARKER ANN!" etc.) I associated this with the most thoughtless kind of girl, but now that you just don't know where the last name as the first name is coming from, I've let go of that. (I do notice that POC make fun of this kind of handle as a stereotypical white-girl name, which: fair, fair.)
posted by Countess Elena at 6:15 AM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
omg this is the additional insight to the reese witherspoon backstory (which I only just learned last year) i never knew I needed.
posted by cendawanita at 7:31 AM on August 8, 2022
posted by cendawanita at 7:31 AM on August 8, 2022
the reese witherspoon backstory
....What backstory?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:28 AM on August 8, 2022
....What backstory?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:28 AM on August 8, 2022
oh no big deal, just me learning about how well-off her family is and i read that she's named after her mother's family name, but i didn't get 'get' that was a class marker.
posted by cendawanita at 8:55 AM on August 8, 2022
posted by cendawanita at 8:55 AM on August 8, 2022
Hard agree with The Corpse in the Library about Kevin coding as Asian American to me. Of course I am Asian American who did lots of Asian American-y activities in young adulthood but I cannot think of a Kevin I know in real life who isn't Asian American....
Korean immigrants to the U.S. were majority Christian (unlike Korea itself) and the overwhelming prevalence of Biblical names in my generation of kids of immigrants has lent itself to a lot of James Kims and Esther Lees.
I remain mildly jealous of Chinese American and Taiwanese American kids who got much more interesting names (in my opinion) than the limited Biblical options. There's a whole genre of British-y names that I have assumed came via Hong Kong diaspora? Winstons and Clements and Wellingtons.
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:03 AM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Korean immigrants to the U.S. were majority Christian (unlike Korea itself) and the overwhelming prevalence of Biblical names in my generation of kids of immigrants has lent itself to a lot of James Kims and Esther Lees.
I remain mildly jealous of Chinese American and Taiwanese American kids who got much more interesting names (in my opinion) than the limited Biblical options. There's a whole genre of British-y names that I have assumed came via Hong Kong diaspora? Winstons and Clements and Wellingtons.
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:03 AM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I admit that I am judgey about name choices in part because some friends have named their kids names that the Korean immigrant grandparents are going to have a hard time pronouncing. My parents were in the U.S. for decades and still frequently used the "j" sound instead of "z" when speaking. We went to the joo not the zoo. Then again plenty of Korean Americans in my generation were named Fred and "fr" is NOT a phoneme in Korean.*
*This caused me great consternation in Seoul when I was unable to order french fries because I couldn't say the Koreanized pronounciation which wasn't even standardized, the Mcdonalds menu had it as (romanization) "Hu-ren-che-hu-rai" but a lot of people said "Pu-ren-che-pu-rai." I would give up after a few tries and order "fried potatoes" in Korean.
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:13 AM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
*This caused me great consternation in Seoul when I was unable to order french fries because I couldn't say the Koreanized pronounciation which wasn't even standardized, the Mcdonalds menu had it as (romanization) "Hu-ren-che-hu-rai" but a lot of people said "Pu-ren-che-pu-rai." I would give up after a few tries and order "fried potatoes" in Korean.
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:13 AM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Confirmation from the article:
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:19 AM on August 8, 2022
When Fafournoux asked Kevins about their parents’ choice, “I learned that a number of French dads had chosen it because they admired the English footballer Kevin Keegan.Also watching the promo trailer about Sauvons Les Kevins made me remember the (excellent!) documentary The Grace Lee Project!!!
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:19 AM on August 8, 2022
Awww, my Urban Dictionary entry is surprisingly sweet. My name is one of those uncommon ones where I have met at least four IRL people with my name too (btw, they spell it wrong, as far I'm concerned), but since it's Spanish--my mom is Mexican--it's probably more common in Spanish-speaking countries. Also: my mother has my eternal gratitude for putting the kibosh on my dad's suggestion, which would have been a feminized version of his name.
Virgilia.
*shudders*
posted by Kitteh at 12:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Virgilia.
*shudders*
posted by Kitteh at 12:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
My Urban Dictionary entries are also oddly sweet (or at least the page that I looked at was). I was expecting more of a “Karen” type, to be honest.
Hard agree with The Corpse in the Library about Kevin coding as Asian American to me
It’s weird how names can have such different associations. Despite living in Germany, and being aware of its connotations here, it’s still a pretty standard name for an Irish guy for me, especially around my own age. You’re probably less likely to meet small kids called Kevin - but Caoimhín with varied spelling (the Irish version) has become a bit more popular.
Also: my mother has my eternal gratitude for putting the kibosh on my dad's suggestion, which would have been a feminized version of his name.
Apparently, there was discussion about calling me Fleur. In Ireland. In the 80’s. (Long before any Harry Potter references!) I have no idea where they came up with this idea, but luckily for me, they didn’t go through with it.
posted by scorbet at 1:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Hard agree with The Corpse in the Library about Kevin coding as Asian American to me
It’s weird how names can have such different associations. Despite living in Germany, and being aware of its connotations here, it’s still a pretty standard name for an Irish guy for me, especially around my own age. You’re probably less likely to meet small kids called Kevin - but Caoimhín with varied spelling (the Irish version) has become a bit more popular.
Also: my mother has my eternal gratitude for putting the kibosh on my dad's suggestion, which would have been a feminized version of his name.
Apparently, there was discussion about calling me Fleur. In Ireland. In the 80’s. (Long before any Harry Potter references!) I have no idea where they came up with this idea, but luckily for me, they didn’t go through with it.
posted by scorbet at 1:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've been watching Gilmore Girls with my daughter and was a little taken aback when one of Emily's rotating cast of maids was named Siri - season 1, so 2003?
I think "Siri" as a woman's name isn't uncommon in Scandinavia. Emily's maids were often immigrants, so it wouldn't surprise me that she had a Scandinavian one.
(My own referents were the novelist Siri Hustvedt and one of my friends' mothers--although she's spelled "Ciri"--as well as Cerie from 30 Rock.)
posted by dlugoczaj at 2:29 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think "Siri" as a woman's name isn't uncommon in Scandinavia. Emily's maids were often immigrants, so it wouldn't surprise me that she had a Scandinavian one.
(My own referents were the novelist Siri Hustvedt and one of my friends' mothers--although she's spelled "Ciri"--as well as Cerie from 30 Rock.)
posted by dlugoczaj at 2:29 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Both UD entries for my legal name and my chosen name are pretty much accurate. :)
Can't help but wonder what the Late Mr. Nerd would think of this, as he was named Kevin.
posted by luckynerd at 2:56 PM on August 8, 2022
Can't help but wonder what the Late Mr. Nerd would think of this, as he was named Kevin.
posted by luckynerd at 2:56 PM on August 8, 2022
This thread seems to be dying down, but I wanted to add the Kenyan version: Jayden.
It's generally used to refer to a spoiled young boy with new money helicopter parents & is also frequently used to refer to the outgoing Kenyan president as an out-of-touch Mama's boy. (He's the son of the 1st president, the Kenyatta family is massively, massively wealthy & it is widely believed that the matriarch is the brains behind all operations.)
The opposite of Jayden is Wanjiku - the hardworking everywoman who runs a small kiosk to provide a life better than the one she had to her children.
posted by wj.wahiga at 3:19 PM on August 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
It's generally used to refer to a spoiled young boy with new money helicopter parents & is also frequently used to refer to the outgoing Kenyan president as an out-of-touch Mama's boy. (He's the son of the 1st president, the Kenyatta family is massively, massively wealthy & it is widely believed that the matriarch is the brains behind all operations.)
The opposite of Jayden is Wanjiku - the hardworking everywoman who runs a small kiosk to provide a life better than the one she had to her children.
posted by wj.wahiga at 3:19 PM on August 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
According to UD, my first name appears to be part of an in-joke for some small niche of the Internet that I know absolutely nothing about. But I'm guessing that niche is full of quite young people so I doubt that it will ever affect my own actual life.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:28 AM on August 6, 2022 [14 favorites]