Here’s why HBO Max is pulling dozens of films and TV series
August 20, 2022 10:05 AM Subscribe
Is "corporate greed" all three of the reasons though?
As far as I'm concerned, piracy is a moral imperative when content is locked up purely to avoid paying the creators for their work.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:16 AM on August 20, 2022 [29 favorites]
As far as I'm concerned, piracy is a moral imperative when content is locked up purely to avoid paying the creators for their work.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:16 AM on August 20, 2022 [29 favorites]
Dozens... three to be exact.
posted by fairmettle at 10:29 AM on August 20, 2022
posted by fairmettle at 10:29 AM on August 20, 2022
Infinity Train is really good--like, OK at the start and then better and better: a mysterious, funny, surreal adventure that's rated for kids but like a lot of the best stuff having moments of darkness, violence, or weirdness that makes you wonder if that's right. Fanfare comments. At least for US audiences, it's currently available at Amazon and Apple, though caveats about not really owning those purchases presumably apply.
posted by Wobbuffet at 10:42 AM on August 20, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by Wobbuffet at 10:42 AM on August 20, 2022 [16 favorites]
I hadn't even heard of Infinity Train before all this started, but I just pirated all 4 seasons and the soundtrack today because they've otherwise been entirely removed from the internet, including purchases of new DVD sets.
posted by hippybear at 10:43 AM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:43 AM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
My kids love re-watching "Infinity Train." This sucks, and will probably lead to me dumping my HBO Max subscription.
posted by drezdn at 10:47 AM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 10:47 AM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
Then we'll get to watch Indiana Jones and the Temple Of Doom 5 times a day like we did in the late 1980s!
Slightly worried that it'll be that and reality shows/"History"-Channel-style-"documentaries" after the full portover to Discovery Plus.
No more prestige tv for thee, I'm afraid.
posted by ishmael at 10:49 AM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
Slightly worried that it'll be that and reality shows/"History"-Channel-style-"documentaries" after the full portover to Discovery Plus.
No more prestige tv for thee, I'm afraid.
posted by ishmael at 10:49 AM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
The solution to clutter should be better design and promotion of titles rather than removing titles entirely.
posted by drezdn at 10:50 AM on August 20, 2022 [32 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 10:50 AM on August 20, 2022 [32 favorites]
I would pay NOT to have Discovery content anywhere near me.
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 10:52 AM on August 20, 2022 [36 favorites]
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 10:52 AM on August 20, 2022 [36 favorites]
While HBO Max already paid for the production of these shows, it’s still on the hook for residuals, including so-called back-end payments to cast, crew and writers, based on long-term viewership metrics.
By removing these films and shows, especially the ones HBO Max created rather than licensed, executives can cut expenses immediately.
Can cast and crew sue for lost contractual revenue? Seems like theft, taking away any option to view their work. That's leaving aside piracy on the other side, which does the very same.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:53 AM on August 20, 2022 [23 favorites]
By removing these films and shows, especially the ones HBO Max created rather than licensed, executives can cut expenses immediately.
Can cast and crew sue for lost contractual revenue? Seems like theft, taking away any option to view their work. That's leaving aside piracy on the other side, which does the very same.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:53 AM on August 20, 2022 [23 favorites]
As far as I can tell from a number of different sources, this does not impact the Venture Bros movie. Which is good, because it saves me having to burn down the Discovery offices.
posted by FatherDagon at 10:59 AM on August 20, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by FatherDagon at 10:59 AM on August 20, 2022 [24 favorites]
I would pay NOT to have Discovery content anywhere near me.
I had some idea that Discovery was still all popular science shows but I guess it morphed into shitty reality TV at some point since I stopped watching cable TV.
posted by octothorpe at 11:05 AM on August 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
I had some idea that Discovery was still all popular science shows but I guess it morphed into shitty reality TV at some point since I stopped watching cable TV.
posted by octothorpe at 11:05 AM on August 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is winnowing of culture, the opposite of the Long Tail we were supposed to be getting with digital services. Instead, we're getting only the Hits, with stuff that is Good Enough to be watched by 90% or 60% or whatever viewer rating is their threshold for perceived profitability.
Their cultural offering is being defined by span of control, what one person who sits in a chair at one of these services can understand and keep in their own head. That being limited to what's comprehensible to one "average" person on their couch looking at a screen menu populated by a handful of top 10 lists, for an impulse watch.
No unlikely content, no content that makes a small but steady stream of income. Nothing you would have to search for. No unplanned surprises. No history or memory beyond what's "iconic".
More pressure to continue, double-down on the safe A-list star system with a couple of directors, producers, writers and composers.
Everything we were promised could change in the 2000s.
posted by bonehead at 11:14 AM on August 20, 2022 [58 favorites]
Their cultural offering is being defined by span of control, what one person who sits in a chair at one of these services can understand and keep in their own head. That being limited to what's comprehensible to one "average" person on their couch looking at a screen menu populated by a handful of top 10 lists, for an impulse watch.
No unlikely content, no content that makes a small but steady stream of income. Nothing you would have to search for. No unplanned surprises. No history or memory beyond what's "iconic".
More pressure to continue, double-down on the safe A-list star system with a couple of directors, producers, writers and composers.
Everything we were promised could change in the 2000s.
posted by bonehead at 11:14 AM on August 20, 2022 [58 favorites]
Can cast and crew sue for lost contractual revenue?
Probably not. Residuals are contingent on the content being profitable (enough) for the distributor to keep distributing it. If the distributor says it isn't worth it for them to keep showing it, there's no $ from which to pay the residuals. I imagine it is probably similar to a film release doing poorly -- if your compensation is based on box office returns, then you're just screwed.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:18 AM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Probably not. Residuals are contingent on the content being profitable (enough) for the distributor to keep distributing it. If the distributor says it isn't worth it for them to keep showing it, there's no $ from which to pay the residuals. I imagine it is probably similar to a film release doing poorly -- if your compensation is based on box office returns, then you're just screwed.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:18 AM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Residuals are contingent on the content being profitable (enough) for the distributor to keep distributing it. If the distributor says it isn't worth it for them to keep showing it, there's no $ from which to pay the residuals.
In theory, I can imagine contracts with the production companies whereby refusal to carry the film would constitute a breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing. Imagine a situation in which a shoemaker grants a store the exclusive right to sell their shoes, in return for a percentage of sales. If the store then permanently refused to stock the shoes, the shoemaker might have such a claim. However, in practice, I doubt the contracts are drafted in that way, and, anyway, actors and the like wouldn't have such a claim.
posted by praemunire at 11:22 AM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
In theory, I can imagine contracts with the production companies whereby refusal to carry the film would constitute a breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing. Imagine a situation in which a shoemaker grants a store the exclusive right to sell their shoes, in return for a percentage of sales. If the store then permanently refused to stock the shoes, the shoemaker might have such a claim. However, in practice, I doubt the contracts are drafted in that way, and, anyway, actors and the like wouldn't have such a claim.
posted by praemunire at 11:22 AM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Then we'll get to watch Indiana Jones and the Temple Of Doom 5 times a day like we did in the late 1980s!
1980s HBO: Hey, Beastmaster's On!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:28 AM on August 20, 2022 [50 favorites]
1980s HBO: Hey, Beastmaster's On!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:28 AM on August 20, 2022 [50 favorites]
Is "corporate greed" all three of the reasons though?
Yes, and?
As far as I'm concerned, piracy is a moral imperative when content is locked up purely to avoid paying the creators for their work.
You nurse your conspiracy theory why they're doing this, I'll nurse mine.
Look, it's their right, their decision. Stuff falls out of distribution all the time. It's all about money. If those shows were worth their while, they wouldn't be going away. The second they think those properties could be milked for some cash, they'll be available.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:57 AM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yes, and?
As far as I'm concerned, piracy is a moral imperative when content is locked up purely to avoid paying the creators for their work.
You nurse your conspiracy theory why they're doing this, I'll nurse mine.
Look, it's their right, their decision. Stuff falls out of distribution all the time. It's all about money. If those shows were worth their while, they wouldn't be going away. The second they think those properties could be milked for some cash, they'll be available.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:57 AM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
I guess it's been a while since I watched The Wraith.
posted by Ickster at 12:04 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Ickster at 12:04 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
There's value in scarcity, see Disney keeping product out of rotation for years or decades. Also padding a new paid service could be a corporate plan. Maybe just SSD rot, no space on the new servers?
posted by sammyo at 12:05 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 12:05 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
No unlikely content, no content that makes a small but steady stream of income. Nothing you would have to search for. No unplanned surprises. No history or memory beyond what's "iconic".
This is actually something that Prime Video excels at. There is a vast amount of long tail stuff on it. So much so that people literally complain about it being hard to find "the good stuff" on many platforms because it's drowned in the sea of unpopular content.
posted by wierdo at 12:07 PM on August 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is actually something that Prime Video excels at. There is a vast amount of long tail stuff on it. So much so that people literally complain about it being hard to find "the good stuff" on many platforms because it's drowned in the sea of unpopular content.
posted by wierdo at 12:07 PM on August 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
I cancelled my HBO Max subscription yesterday.
posted by potrzebie at 12:13 PM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 12:13 PM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm hoping the Amazon/MGM deal gives access to every movie MGM ever made but now I doubt it. Having access to that would be amazing. But like with this I assume they'll only release what they think is popular which means a ton of old movies would never see the light of day.
posted by downtohisturtles at 12:14 PM on August 20, 2022
posted by downtohisturtles at 12:14 PM on August 20, 2022
Part of the brilliance of the Turner Classic Movies channel, the one you get on cable or satellite, is 1) solid curation of the stream, and 2) in between movies all these shorts and other material you'd never otherwise see. If they have 12 minutes until the top of the hour, you might see some weird 10 minute short that you probably can't even find on the TCM streaming service.
I wish I could just buy the TCM channel stream someplace. Our DISH costs us SO much money every month but that is the ONE thing we watch most in this house and it is only available on the very top tier.
posted by hippybear at 12:18 PM on August 20, 2022 [18 favorites]
I wish I could just buy the TCM channel stream someplace. Our DISH costs us SO much money every month but that is the ONE thing we watch most in this house and it is only available on the very top tier.
posted by hippybear at 12:18 PM on August 20, 2022 [18 favorites]
BRB, watching Courage the Cowardly Dog while I still can.
I both wish all content could be easily available forever and accept that I fail to watch most things that are available to and interesting to me now.
I do hate how streaming service originals are basically never available to own. There are some Netflix movies I would love to purchase a copy of, and can't, and I know someday they will just stop hosting them and too bad for me.
posted by the primroses were over at 12:18 PM on August 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
I both wish all content could be easily available forever and accept that I fail to watch most things that are available to and interesting to me now.
I do hate how streaming service originals are basically never available to own. There are some Netflix movies I would love to purchase a copy of, and can't, and I know someday they will just stop hosting them and too bad for me.
posted by the primroses were over at 12:18 PM on August 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
More pressure to continue, double-down on the safe A-list star system with a couple of directors, producers, writers and composers.
For lack of enforcement of antitrust laws, I suppose we're being forcibly moved back to a revision of the Hollywood studio system of olden times.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:19 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
For lack of enforcement of antitrust laws, I suppose we're being forcibly moved back to a revision of the Hollywood studio system of olden times.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:19 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
The second they think those properties could be milked for some cash, they'll be available.
Not if they get Megas'd.
(For those who don't know, the reason why you can't find the sublimely hilarious mecha parody Megas XLR on any sort of streaming service today is because it was written off as a tax loss, which has put the show into limbo.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:23 PM on August 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
Not if they get Megas'd.
(For those who don't know, the reason why you can't find the sublimely hilarious mecha parody Megas XLR on any sort of streaming service today is because it was written off as a tax loss, which has put the show into limbo.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:23 PM on August 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
Echoing that I would literally pay to continue with the version of HBO that has zero Discovery content.
Honestly, the occasional performance art situation aside--or whatever, like, "The Rehearsal" is--I would pay money to have no reality television on any station ever again.
posted by thivaia at 12:35 PM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
Honestly, the occasional performance art situation aside--or whatever, like, "The Rehearsal" is--I would pay money to have no reality television on any station ever again.
posted by thivaia at 12:35 PM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
I have a friend who has been somewhat privy to these events behind the scenes. Almost everyone involved thinks it's awful, a lot of people are worried about what it means going forward, and the major fallout won't even be subscriber loss—it's the absolute shattering of trust with creators, all of whom are now going to have a major fear of being memory-holed.
The strategy appears to involve targeting HBO Max and Discovery shows, preserving HBO (and, weirdly, Adult Swim) as prestige content creators who can be trusted going forward. It's weird to me that Cartoon Network is less sacrosanct than Adult Swim, and CN seems to have the most popular shows getting the axe, but there does appear to be some kind of strategy there. I'm curious what will happen to Discovery and HBO Max going forward, since neither of their brands seems nearly as inviolable as HBO's; it'll be curious to see whether the plan is a consolidated brand or literally four different release channels operating separately. Hell, HBO vs. HBO Max is already kind of a weird distinction to me.
The reason, I gather, that this was not an option...
The friend's take is cautiously optimistic, in the sense that they're hoping this is a one-time awful move and not the Spanfellerization of the entire network. But geez, what an awful move from a sheer PR perspective. And how awful it must be to be one of the people whose work is getting memory-holed.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 12:44 PM on August 20, 2022 [14 favorites]
The strategy appears to involve targeting HBO Max and Discovery shows, preserving HBO (and, weirdly, Adult Swim) as prestige content creators who can be trusted going forward. It's weird to me that Cartoon Network is less sacrosanct than Adult Swim, and CN seems to have the most popular shows getting the axe, but there does appear to be some kind of strategy there. I'm curious what will happen to Discovery and HBO Max going forward, since neither of their brands seems nearly as inviolable as HBO's; it'll be curious to see whether the plan is a consolidated brand or literally four different release channels operating separately. Hell, HBO vs. HBO Max is already kind of a weird distinction to me.
The reason, I gather, that this was not an option...
The solution to clutter should be better design and promotion of titles rather than removing titles entirely....is that a part of the tax write-off process involves making the claim that these titles have not and will never make money—not even in the sense of promoting the network by existing. I saw online that another part of this might be cutting off residual payments to certain creators; I'm really not sure about how the write-off process works, but gathered that Discovery at least seems to think that the write-offs are financially important.
The friend's take is cautiously optimistic, in the sense that they're hoping this is a one-time awful move and not the Spanfellerization of the entire network. But geez, what an awful move from a sheer PR perspective. And how awful it must be to be one of the people whose work is getting memory-holed.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 12:44 PM on August 20, 2022 [14 favorites]
Ugh, the biggest, stupidest loss here is for Summer Camp Island, a delightful kids show (from Adventure Time alums) whose final season was completed but not yet aired. Go out and pirate the seasons that exist, I guess...
posted by nobody at 12:44 PM on August 20, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by nobody at 12:44 PM on August 20, 2022 [10 favorites]
I do hate how streaming service originals are basically never available to own. There are some Netflix movies I would love to purchase a copy of, and can't, and I know someday they will just stop hosting them and too bad for me.
Same here. I've mostly outgrown torrenting, and pay for copies of virtually all the content I consume—I even avoid streaming, when I can—but I've pulled out Transmission sheerly for purposes of grabbing Amazon Prime material that I cannot for the life of me find a for-pay copy of. I even pay to stream them first, so I can feel somewhat justified in nabbing a download, but it's nonsense that we're moving away from the most consumer-friendly era of content creation for the dumbest possible reasons.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 12:45 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Same here. I've mostly outgrown torrenting, and pay for copies of virtually all the content I consume—I even avoid streaming, when I can—but I've pulled out Transmission sheerly for purposes of grabbing Amazon Prime material that I cannot for the life of me find a for-pay copy of. I even pay to stream them first, so I can feel somewhat justified in nabbing a download, but it's nonsense that we're moving away from the most consumer-friendly era of content creation for the dumbest possible reasons.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 12:45 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Anything removed from circulation like this should be automatically put in the public domain.
posted by Small Dollar at 12:57 PM on August 20, 2022 [56 favorites]
posted by Small Dollar at 12:57 PM on August 20, 2022 [56 favorites]
The decision comes ahead of Warner Bros. Discovery plans to combine Discovery+ with HBO Max into a new service that will launch in the U.S. in mid-2023.
Gosh this reads to me exactly like the hubris that comes before some bad decisions tank what was a successful business. I mean it doesn’t have to, but I just have a feeling.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:59 PM on August 20, 2022 [10 favorites]
Gosh this reads to me exactly like the hubris that comes before some bad decisions tank what was a successful business. I mean it doesn’t have to, but I just have a feeling.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:59 PM on August 20, 2022 [10 favorites]
1980s HBO: Hey, Beastmaster's On!
When I was a teenager we moved out of the sticks and were finally able to get cable. Watching Krull, The Beastmaster series, and various other Barbarian schlock over and over again is actually a pretty fond memory.
posted by Dr. Twist at 1:07 PM on August 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
When I was a teenager we moved out of the sticks and were finally able to get cable. Watching Krull, The Beastmaster series, and various other Barbarian schlock over and over again is actually a pretty fond memory.
posted by Dr. Twist at 1:07 PM on August 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
WB has had such a wonderful history with trying to merge with other companies... Illustrious, successful, something that should be copied.
posted by hippybear at 1:07 PM on August 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:07 PM on August 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
This is actually something that Prime Video excels at. There is a vast amount of long tail stuff on it. So much so that people literally complain about it being hard to find "the good stuff" on many platforms because it's drowned in the sea of unpopular content.
This is much more a problem with their search than a problem with their content. Literally nothing is lost by having content on a service that isn't seen much, which is why people are angry over HBO Max taking down so much content.
By taking things down to avoid paying residuals and write them off on taxes, when they could simply license them to other streaming services like Netflix which I believe is constantly desperate to add new stuff, it sounds like something that could be shareholder actionable? I don't know though, I'm not an expert on bullshit corporate justifications and adverse executive incentives.
posted by JHarris at 1:23 PM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is much more a problem with their search than a problem with their content. Literally nothing is lost by having content on a service that isn't seen much, which is why people are angry over HBO Max taking down so much content.
By taking things down to avoid paying residuals and write them off on taxes, when they could simply license them to other streaming services like Netflix which I believe is constantly desperate to add new stuff, it sounds like something that could be shareholder actionable? I don't know though, I'm not an expert on bullshit corporate justifications and adverse executive incentives.
posted by JHarris at 1:23 PM on August 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
I would never tell you that you could watch watchseries.ru or fmovies.to. I mean, that's illicit, so don't do that.
posted by evilDoug at 1:38 PM on August 20, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 1:38 PM on August 20, 2022 [22 favorites]
I would really ask that we not promote pirated content, as the end result of “free” content is that creators/tech teams/etc. etc. don’t get paid, and behemoth companies also perceive lower value and don’t pay creators.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:09 PM on August 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 2:09 PM on August 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
For what it's worth, a couple of years ago, I made a project out of sampling the 150 worst-rated / least popular SF/F originals (more or less) on Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Facebook Watch. Human Kind Of was very good, and I appreciated Neo Yokio, Kulipari: An Army of Frogs, and 7Seeds for various reasons too.
In my mind, Infinity Train is not comparable--e.g. on IMDb, it has a much higher rating and like 3x to 30x as many viewers as any of these shows--so TFA's point that HBOMax is "eschewing kids and family" seems intelligible as a decision to just not carry a show like this. But it looks like it was doing much better than these Netflix shows, and it has plenty for adults in it too.
posted by Wobbuffet at 2:22 PM on August 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
In my mind, Infinity Train is not comparable--e.g. on IMDb, it has a much higher rating and like 3x to 30x as many viewers as any of these shows--so TFA's point that HBOMax is "eschewing kids and family" seems intelligible as a decision to just not carry a show like this. But it looks like it was doing much better than these Netflix shows, and it has plenty for adults in it too.
posted by Wobbuffet at 2:22 PM on August 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
I would really ask that we not promote pirated content, as the end result of “free” content is that creators/tech teams/etc. etc. don’t get paid, and behemoth companies also perceive lower value and don’t pay creators.
This is a thread about content being made completely unavailable in order to avoid paying creators for it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:32 PM on August 20, 2022 [80 favorites]
This is a thread about content being made completely unavailable in order to avoid paying creators for it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:32 PM on August 20, 2022 [80 favorites]
I wonder if this is why The Repair Shop is suddenly gone from Discovery Plus. It was the only show we watched on that service, so we're cancelling it.
posted by amarynth at 2:46 PM on August 20, 2022
posted by amarynth at 2:46 PM on August 20, 2022
WB has had such a wonderful history with trying to merge with other companies
WB has a wonderful history of finder newer and newer suckers to pass its enormous, crushing debt on to.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 2:49 PM on August 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
WB has a wonderful history of finder newer and newer suckers to pass its enormous, crushing debt on to.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 2:49 PM on August 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is a large part of why I think IP right should be use it or lose it; That if you don't keep a show or book or whatnot available for X amount of time, it either goes back to the creator (if not owned by them) or goes public domain (if the creator hasn't kept it up for sale).
posted by Canageek at 3:08 PM on August 20, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by Canageek at 3:08 PM on August 20, 2022 [18 favorites]
I'm hoping the Amazon/MGM deal gives access to every movie MGM ever made but now I doubt it.
Unfortunately, while Amazon bought MGM studios, Warner had bought most of MGM's back catalog a while ago.
posted by octothorpe at 3:10 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, while Amazon bought MGM studios, Warner had bought most of MGM's back catalog a while ago.
posted by octothorpe at 3:10 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just cancelled my Paramount (UK) sub, lasted all of one month. Turned out to be nob all on there once I was done with Strange New Worlds. You'd think they would have a ton of films but the selection was woeful, both thin and without any depth.
posted by biffa at 3:35 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 3:35 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Removing 200 episodes of Sesame Street is a thing that recently happened as part of the HBO show cuts, and that is immoral and unethical.
posted by Faintdreams at 3:36 PM on August 20, 2022 [38 favorites]
posted by Faintdreams at 3:36 PM on August 20, 2022 [38 favorites]
I would really ask that we not promote pirated content, as the end result of “free” content is that creators/tech teams/etc. etc. don’t get paid, and behemoth companies also perceive lower value and don’t pay creators.
Evidently this can also be the end result of paid content. I also don't think it's really sensible or fair to thrust the burden onto the consumer here. Like, as if you didn't give Streaming Service 15 bucks this month, all the people on the shows you watched that month, having already been paid for their labour on the project at unfair market rates, will not get any residual benefits that all major media companies are looking to avoid paying out under any circumstances wherever they can get away with it.
I'm not responsible for the behaviour of greedy investors and execs, I'm also not responsible for ensuring workers who makes things I like get paid or get treated well, it's not my company and the company does not exist under laws citizens chose representationally. Typically I cannot even possibly buy a product until after the workers making it have been underpaid and overexploited, and doesn't sit right anyone telling another "hey you better support that with your unfair amount of too little money so that the company has some abstract incentive to keep doing what it's doing and worse!"
I also don't think it makes any sense to call content sharing "piracy" while we know actual pirates still exist and actual piracy is a real problem threatening real people with real violence. Downloading infinitely reproducible data is not in any way and never will be comparable to piracy.
Lastly, just because I can afford to buy or pay for streaming access to the media consume, does not mean I deserve to consume that media any more than someone who could not afford it. The workers who made the art (and people who saw the art ordidn't) deserve a decent quality of life that all human beings ought to be afforded at the collectively expense and effort of civilization. That burden is on all of us, but it's not on us to respond by the desired consumer response by capitalists who stand to benefit from it.
posted by GoblinHoney at 3:46 PM on August 20, 2022 [46 favorites]
Evidently this can also be the end result of paid content. I also don't think it's really sensible or fair to thrust the burden onto the consumer here. Like, as if you didn't give Streaming Service 15 bucks this month, all the people on the shows you watched that month, having already been paid for their labour on the project at unfair market rates, will not get any residual benefits that all major media companies are looking to avoid paying out under any circumstances wherever they can get away with it.
I'm not responsible for the behaviour of greedy investors and execs, I'm also not responsible for ensuring workers who makes things I like get paid or get treated well, it's not my company and the company does not exist under laws citizens chose representationally. Typically I cannot even possibly buy a product until after the workers making it have been underpaid and overexploited, and doesn't sit right anyone telling another "hey you better support that with your unfair amount of too little money so that the company has some abstract incentive to keep doing what it's doing and worse!"
I also don't think it makes any sense to call content sharing "piracy" while we know actual pirates still exist and actual piracy is a real problem threatening real people with real violence. Downloading infinitely reproducible data is not in any way and never will be comparable to piracy.
Lastly, just because I can afford to buy or pay for streaming access to the media consume, does not mean I deserve to consume that media any more than someone who could not afford it. The workers who made the art (and people who saw the art ordidn't) deserve a decent quality of life that all human beings ought to be afforded at the collectively expense and effort of civilization. That burden is on all of us, but it's not on us to respond by the desired consumer response by capitalists who stand to benefit from it.
posted by GoblinHoney at 3:46 PM on August 20, 2022 [46 favorites]
Is "corporate greed" all three of the reasons though?
Having read the article... I can kind of understand the complexity of the decision process.
They can clearly define the costs of different shows (based on the residual payouts) and can sort of define their value contribution (proportion of watch-hours), but the link between watch-hours and revenue is kind of tenuous.
It's hard to justify keeping loss-making products to shareholders. Of course most everyone puts their retirement funds in the fund that earns them the highest returns...
We had PLENTY of those discussions. Oh, this product makes losses every year, but it's important we keep this low-end product on the market so lower income consumers can buy this product now, and then move up to our more profitable product in 5-10 years when they become wealthier! (Reader, they did not)
Or... this expensive high end product makes losses every year, but it's important we keep it on the market to increase the prestige of our product line. (In reality, the chief engineer wanted the prestige of working on this product for himself and his team...)
The desire for decluttering as well... everyone points to Apple and Tesla as shining examples of having a simplified product line, compared to Samsung or GM. Of course, there have been extremes - hey, we can build literally 2,000 permutations of this one product, which one would you like, because some pencil pusher somewhere calculated that if you can chase just one marginal buyer who wants this exact configuration that the competitors didn't offer, you damn well take that market share and revenue, but then forget the costs of the sheer insanity of designing, manufacturing and then supporting warranty for those 2,000 variations...
posted by xdvesper at 4:38 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Having read the article... I can kind of understand the complexity of the decision process.
They can clearly define the costs of different shows (based on the residual payouts) and can sort of define their value contribution (proportion of watch-hours), but the link between watch-hours and revenue is kind of tenuous.
It's hard to justify keeping loss-making products to shareholders. Of course most everyone puts their retirement funds in the fund that earns them the highest returns...
We had PLENTY of those discussions. Oh, this product makes losses every year, but it's important we keep this low-end product on the market so lower income consumers can buy this product now, and then move up to our more profitable product in 5-10 years when they become wealthier! (Reader, they did not)
Or... this expensive high end product makes losses every year, but it's important we keep it on the market to increase the prestige of our product line. (In reality, the chief engineer wanted the prestige of working on this product for himself and his team...)
The desire for decluttering as well... everyone points to Apple and Tesla as shining examples of having a simplified product line, compared to Samsung or GM. Of course, there have been extremes - hey, we can build literally 2,000 permutations of this one product, which one would you like, because some pencil pusher somewhere calculated that if you can chase just one marginal buyer who wants this exact configuration that the competitors didn't offer, you damn well take that market share and revenue, but then forget the costs of the sheer insanity of designing, manufacturing and then supporting warranty for those 2,000 variations...
posted by xdvesper at 4:38 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well fuck. I have no interest in HBO. However, I love me some Food Network and HGTV (and my guilty pleasure is ID). I'll have to see what this merger does to the stuff I like. It sounds like I'm opposite of a lot of people in this thread.
posted by kathrynm at 4:44 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kathrynm at 4:44 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Faintdreams, I agree. And this is an important and interesting topic. But your comment reminded me of a 28-year-old story, so I'm going to add it here. It still makes me laugh.
Two pieces of background, and then the sophomoric story. You likely know the background but here we go:
(1) Mr Hooper was the much-beloved proprietor of the eponymous "Hooper's Store" in the 70s and early 80s. The actor (Will Lee) died in 1982 and the show grabbed the bull by the horns, and addressed "Mr. Hooper's" death in-universe, in what was widely regarded as an age-appropriate, thoughtful episode.
(2) Quentin Tarantino's "Pulp Fiction" hit movie theaters in the fall of 1994, and one of my friends at the time was dating the ticket taker at a theater near where we went to school. So we snuck in to see Pulp Fiction pretty much every chance we got for a week or two, and had seared most of the audio into our brains by late October/early November. The "Zed's dead" bit of audio was even on the soundtrack, which didn't help us forget it.
The embarrassing story: A bunch of us reprobates who had been sneaking into movies and memorizing soundtracks were strolling along, when somebody tried to come up with the word for "General Store." They kept insisting that they meant "Convenience Store," and our go-to example of what a general store was (and a convenience store wasn't) was Mr. Hooper's store. She hadn't been raised by her television, so it took some explaining about the whole thing. Anyway, in the end, we re-scripted the bit as:
Fake French Accent: Whose conwenience store ees theees?
Bruce Willis Accent: It's a general store.
FFA: Whose zheneraill store ees thees?
BWA: Mr. Hooper's.
FFA: 'oo ees Meestehr 'oopeahr?
BWA: Mr. Hooper's dead, baby. Mr. Hooper's dead.
I'm pretty sure our "very special episode" was not going to get a daytime Emmy, and I still feel sheepish cracking a joke about a character so central to so many people's childhoods, but when I think of my buddy's girlfriend's outrageous accent, I still laugh.
posted by adekllny at 4:56 PM on August 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
Two pieces of background, and then the sophomoric story. You likely know the background but here we go:
(1) Mr Hooper was the much-beloved proprietor of the eponymous "Hooper's Store" in the 70s and early 80s. The actor (Will Lee) died in 1982 and the show grabbed the bull by the horns, and addressed "Mr. Hooper's" death in-universe, in what was widely regarded as an age-appropriate, thoughtful episode.
(2) Quentin Tarantino's "Pulp Fiction" hit movie theaters in the fall of 1994, and one of my friends at the time was dating the ticket taker at a theater near where we went to school. So we snuck in to see Pulp Fiction pretty much every chance we got for a week or two, and had seared most of the audio into our brains by late October/early November. The "Zed's dead" bit of audio was even on the soundtrack, which didn't help us forget it.
The embarrassing story: A bunch of us reprobates who had been sneaking into movies and memorizing soundtracks were strolling along, when somebody tried to come up with the word for "General Store." They kept insisting that they meant "Convenience Store," and our go-to example of what a general store was (and a convenience store wasn't) was Mr. Hooper's store. She hadn't been raised by her television, so it took some explaining about the whole thing. Anyway, in the end, we re-scripted the bit as:
Fake French Accent: Whose conwenience store ees theees?
Bruce Willis Accent: It's a general store.
FFA: Whose zheneraill store ees thees?
BWA: Mr. Hooper's.
FFA: 'oo ees Meestehr 'oopeahr?
BWA: Mr. Hooper's dead, baby. Mr. Hooper's dead.
I'm pretty sure our "very special episode" was not going to get a daytime Emmy, and I still feel sheepish cracking a joke about a character so central to so many people's childhoods, but when I think of my buddy's girlfriend's outrageous accent, I still laugh.
posted by adekllny at 4:56 PM on August 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
I really liked Close Enough (and would have liked to see more of it, but it was cancelled) I love Summer Camp Island (and the last season was amazing and went into some very unexpected directions, I really hope that Cartoon Network does eventually show the already-produced sixth season, it seems like they might via twitter) and as a kid who was raised by Sesame Street I put on old episodes for comfort tv viewing (or even just on in in the background) ALL THE TIME. Now there are just three seasons left where Jim Henson was there :-(
posted by 41swans at 5:02 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by 41swans at 5:02 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Even “Sesame Street,” which HBO Max acquired in 2019 in a five-year deal, isn’t pulling strong numbers, according to people familiar with the matter.WHAT?!? You're telling me Sesame Street's target audience of... let me check... underprivileged preschoolers didn't follow it onto an expensive streaming platform? I think I just dropped my monocle into my vichyssoise.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:36 PM on August 20, 2022 [68 favorites]
I will confess that I would/will not subscribe to any streaming/cable content server because for me it would be a waste of money. I have no interest in popular content. None. But I do have interest in old content like silent films, avant garde content, weird content, foreign content, etc. And for a number of years I was to buy VHS tapes, cassettes, CDs, etc of such stuff. When DVDs arrived, it was there in even more quantity, and I was able build a pretty good library of content. But as internet content rose, DVDs started to disappear, CDs too. Hanging out on the edges of the popularity bell curve became like a ghost town. All content seems to have been reduced to top ten, bestseller, and profit profit profit. And now I’m back in the 70’s when the idea of seeing Fellini’s Satyricon was left up to a local repertory theater scheduling it. But luckily I have it on DVD. And repertory theaters are dying right and left. Content for the masses is still around though even there the variety is scant. The internet was thought to be the place where content of all kinds would flourish. Maybe it’s there…. I don’t know… when once such stuff could be found now I don’t encounter it. Media content has become homogenized. If anyone knows of any way to find highly creative, weird, wonderful, genius, expressive, worthwhile, change your life/outlook, content… Please point the way…
posted by njohnson23 at 6:03 PM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 6:03 PM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
In terms of locating rare content such as Satyricon, and many if not all of the pieces pulled by HBOmax, the five letters RARBG may be your friend, and depending the local level of copyright repression, the letters VPN may be prudent. I leave the meaning of these letters as an exercise to the adventurous.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:39 PM on August 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:39 PM on August 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
Whenever the rich people make some horrible decision that makes everything worse for everyone including themselves I don't understand the rush to proclaim that well folks there was actually nothing wrong with this because technically they were within their rights. We are "technically they were within their rights"-ing ourselves to hell.
posted by bleep at 7:14 PM on August 20, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by bleep at 7:14 PM on August 20, 2022 [26 favorites]
After reading the article, I'm torn between anger at the content creators getting short-changed and glee at the fact that among those getting short-changed are those who thought that "Elmo, but in late-night talk show format" is something the world remotely needed even a little bit at all.
posted by 7segment at 7:48 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by 7segment at 7:48 PM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was enjoying watching the Sesame Street of my toddlerhood with my toddler. The last episode we watched was the 1983 NYC Marathon episode. The next would have been Goodbye Mr. Hooper.
I’d probably cancel too but the subscription was free with my internet so I guess it’s a meaningless gesture.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 8:09 PM on August 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’d probably cancel too but the subscription was free with my internet so I guess it’s a meaningless gesture.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 8:09 PM on August 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
I cannot find the tweet at the moment, but I ran into a piece talking about how this has screwed creative types in another way- they no longer have access to part of their portfolios. They cannot point to this or that show on a streaming service as a way to show what a.) their work looks/sounds like and b.) what it looks/sounds like when integrated with the work of others. They may still have access to some of the work they did, but not in a completed form, not in a way that is as useful as a completed show.
posted by Hactar at 8:13 PM on August 20, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 8:13 PM on August 20, 2022 [17 favorites]
Did they actually remove ALL the Sesame Street episodes? Or what is going on with that?
Also, Goodbye Mr. Hooper is really intense even for me as an adult who has seen it several times including first time around. It might be on YouTube but you should prepare yourself for all that.
posted by hippybear at 8:15 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also, Goodbye Mr. Hooper is really intense even for me as an adult who has seen it several times including first time around. It might be on YouTube but you should prepare yourself for all that.
posted by hippybear at 8:15 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Explain like I'm five: How do you save on residuals by memory-holing a seldom watched show? If it doesn't have viewers, there shouldn't be much in the way of residuals.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:29 PM on August 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:29 PM on August 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is one of those situations where the America-centric nature of the internet really gets my goat: Infinity Train is still available for streaming in Australia, and presumably many other countries; it was hardly "deleted from the internet", because HBO Max was only available in America.
Streaming seems to be a particular irritant for me, I guess - I was irrationally infuriated when people kept linking Hulu shows as if it was helpful, but that stopped a few years ago.
posted by Merus at 8:37 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Streaming seems to be a particular irritant for me, I guess - I was irrationally infuriated when people kept linking Hulu shows as if it was helpful, but that stopped a few years ago.
posted by Merus at 8:37 PM on August 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Re: infinity train I'll just put this and this here.
posted by hippybear at 8:42 PM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:42 PM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
Explain like I'm five: How do you save on residuals by memory-holing a seldom watched show? If it doesn't have viewers, there shouldn't be much in the way of residuals.
Basically: there’s an accounting line for “residuals”. If the number on that line helps to create a profit margin outside the target, dropping shows that aren’t watched very much will theoretically save you more money than the resulting drop in subscription revenue.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:06 PM on August 20, 2022
Basically: there’s an accounting line for “residuals”. If the number on that line helps to create a profit margin outside the target, dropping shows that aren’t watched very much will theoretically save you more money than the resulting drop in subscription revenue.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:06 PM on August 20, 2022
Media content has become homogenized. If anyone knows of any way to find highly creative, weird, wonderful, genius, expressive, worthwhile, change your life/outlook, content… Please point the way…
Well, for music I've been getting a lot of mileage out of new acts I've found on Bandcamp...
posted by Ber at 9:10 PM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
Well, for music I've been getting a lot of mileage out of new acts I've found on Bandcamp...
posted by Ber at 9:10 PM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think the way that Discovery went about this is incredibly unprofessional, rude, and just straight up slimy. I think most everyone who makes anything feels this way. Across the industry, talent is mad, agents are mad, lawyers and managers are mad, even execs at these companies are mad. I can’t think of a single person who works in animation and entertainment that, when you bring this all up, doesn’t say “What the fuck are they doing? How do they plan to have anyone ever want to work with them again?”— “Infinity Train” creator Owen Dennis’ thoughts on the state of things as of now.
Because why would we? What is the point of making something, spending years working on it, putting in nights and weekends doing their terrible notes, losing sleep and not seeing our families, if it’s just going to be taken away and shot in the backyard? It’s so incredibly discouraging and they’re definitely not going to be getting their best work out of whoever decides to stay.
He also comments on the CNBC article.
posted by rewil at 9:35 PM on August 20, 2022 [20 favorites]
I have no sympathy for any viewpoint that places shareholder value over (a) art, and (b) loyalty to your people. No one is subscribing to HBO Max because they want to give money to rich people. That is not the ostensible mission of HBO Max. You can have a company that exists to give money to rich people, but it's a hell of a thing to ask the public to fund it. HBO Max's customer is its audience. It seems to be a little confused about that at the moment.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:30 PM on August 20, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:30 PM on August 20, 2022 [11 favorites]
HBO Max exists to make a profit or to create value such that it can be sold as an entity for a profit. It is as simple as that. Every decision they make should be understood in that context. The key is to look at the SEC filings to see how the top executives are compensated. Are they compensated based on short term results? Do they get a bonus if there is some threshold profit this quarter? Or are they compensated such that they lean towards long-term decision making?
They have said exactly what and why they are doing what they are doing. They no longer want to be in the kids/family area. It appears to me that they do not think they can compete with Disney+ so why try. I am sure they expect to lose some number of streaming customers over the decision, but they feel that the cost savings will be more than the loss of revenue.
I don't see ever subscribing to most of these streaming services. I get Netflix for free as part of my T-Mobile phone package, I get the MLB Network free for that reason too. (Also a subscription to the Athletic an online subscription only sports site.) I get whatever Amazon Prime is pushing because I got sucked into the Amazon Prime thing with the free shipping. Back when that started, it was essentially pay one price for shipping everything all year. (Now, most stores that sell on Amazon that are not part of Prime will discount the product such that cost is competitive with Prime free shipping.)
This is all part of the trend of a la carting cable. Cable is a big bundle of all these services that you have no choice to pay for. There are lots and lots of people, probably the majority on this site, that subsidize the cost of me watching sports on ESPN because they have cable and cannot get it without paying for it as part of the high cost of cable. All these cable and channel contracts are starting to come due. I can now buy what I want by subscribing to say, ESPN+, some movie service, etc. The last area for independence seems to be sports. Until the local sports networks are able to bypass cable and sell directly to the end user, cable will have appeal. If I could pay for the YES network outside of cable, why would I want to pay for the Animal Planet or to see all 218 season of Law and Order?
My kids are all older. Why would I care if they took Sesame Street off of HBO Max? That is exactly what they are thinking too. Why be a department store forced to keep prices high because of costs of maintaining all the different genres when they can specialize? Fragmentation of what I used to call TV is here.
Fwiw, I used to be a cord cutter. Got rid of cable ten years ago when it was not so easy and you had to read a lot of websites to keep up on how to do it. Then, 2 years ago, I went back. I wanted to get high speed internet at home for my trading business. It was finally cheaper to get the internet/TV bundle from VZ than it was to just get internet and a la carte my TV. I found that I would watch whatever was available. Now that I have cable, I watch different things. Plus, with the death of Locast, I could no longer get free local TV from 15 different markets.
HBO Max is not a public good. It is a for profit company or part of one. Maybe PBS should go back to making Sesame Street. Even they found it not worth it after decades of producing it.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:07 AM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
They have said exactly what and why they are doing what they are doing. They no longer want to be in the kids/family area. It appears to me that they do not think they can compete with Disney+ so why try. I am sure they expect to lose some number of streaming customers over the decision, but they feel that the cost savings will be more than the loss of revenue.
I don't see ever subscribing to most of these streaming services. I get Netflix for free as part of my T-Mobile phone package, I get the MLB Network free for that reason too. (Also a subscription to the Athletic an online subscription only sports site.) I get whatever Amazon Prime is pushing because I got sucked into the Amazon Prime thing with the free shipping. Back when that started, it was essentially pay one price for shipping everything all year. (Now, most stores that sell on Amazon that are not part of Prime will discount the product such that cost is competitive with Prime free shipping.)
This is all part of the trend of a la carting cable. Cable is a big bundle of all these services that you have no choice to pay for. There are lots and lots of people, probably the majority on this site, that subsidize the cost of me watching sports on ESPN because they have cable and cannot get it without paying for it as part of the high cost of cable. All these cable and channel contracts are starting to come due. I can now buy what I want by subscribing to say, ESPN+, some movie service, etc. The last area for independence seems to be sports. Until the local sports networks are able to bypass cable and sell directly to the end user, cable will have appeal. If I could pay for the YES network outside of cable, why would I want to pay for the Animal Planet or to see all 218 season of Law and Order?
My kids are all older. Why would I care if they took Sesame Street off of HBO Max? That is exactly what they are thinking too. Why be a department store forced to keep prices high because of costs of maintaining all the different genres when they can specialize? Fragmentation of what I used to call TV is here.
Fwiw, I used to be a cord cutter. Got rid of cable ten years ago when it was not so easy and you had to read a lot of websites to keep up on how to do it. Then, 2 years ago, I went back. I wanted to get high speed internet at home for my trading business. It was finally cheaper to get the internet/TV bundle from VZ than it was to just get internet and a la carte my TV. I found that I would watch whatever was available. Now that I have cable, I watch different things. Plus, with the death of Locast, I could no longer get free local TV from 15 different markets.
HBO Max is not a public good. It is a for profit company or part of one. Maybe PBS should go back to making Sesame Street. Even they found it not worth it after decades of producing it.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:07 AM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Everything getting pulled from “HBO Max” was infrequently watched, according to people familiar with the matter.I don’t even live in a country where HBO Max is available, so far as I know, and this disappoints me. I thought those is what streaming content and on demand was supposed to lead us away from. “I have a new music streaming service: it has the latest albums by Ed Sheeran and Adele and also Harry Styles. No, that’s it.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:50 AM on August 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
More pressure to continue, double-down on the safe A-list star system with a couple of directors, producers, writers and composers.
All movies going forward will be measured in Hemsworth units.
posted by srboisvert at 4:14 AM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
All movies going forward will be measured in Hemsworth units.
posted by srboisvert at 4:14 AM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Anything removed from circulation like this should be automatically put in the public domain.
posted by Small Dollar at 12:57 PM on August 20
This is a large part of why I think IP right should be use it or lose it; That if you don't keep a show or book or whatnot available for X amount of time, it either goes back to the creator (if not owned by them) or goes public domain (if the creator hasn't kept it up for sale).
posted by Canageek at 3:08 PM on August 20
Favorited both, and repeating for amplification. If you're going to claim tax benefits by deducting the loss, the tax paying public deserves something in compensation.
posted by rochrobbb at 4:17 AM on August 21, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by Small Dollar at 12:57 PM on August 20
This is a large part of why I think IP right should be use it or lose it; That if you don't keep a show or book or whatnot available for X amount of time, it either goes back to the creator (if not owned by them) or goes public domain (if the creator hasn't kept it up for sale).
posted by Canageek at 3:08 PM on August 20
Favorited both, and repeating for amplification. If you're going to claim tax benefits by deducting the loss, the tax paying public deserves something in compensation.
posted by rochrobbb at 4:17 AM on August 21, 2022 [23 favorites]
While HBO Max already paid for the production of these shows, it’s still on the hook for residuals
I don't understand this sentence. Residuals are based on viewing, no? If the shows are barely watched, the residuals would not be expensive. Isn't this like firing an hourly employee who only works when you need them? What is the point?
posted by dobbs at 4:49 AM on August 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don't understand this sentence. Residuals are based on viewing, no? If the shows are barely watched, the residuals would not be expensive. Isn't this like firing an hourly employee who only works when you need them? What is the point?
posted by dobbs at 4:49 AM on August 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
Sesame Street's YouTube channel has been uploading full episodes for free. Hopefully they'll put up some classic episodes too, but in the meantime there are some unofficial sources.
posted by fight or flight at 4:58 AM on August 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 4:58 AM on August 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Media content has become homogenized. If anyone knows of any way to find highly creative, weird, wonderful, genius, expressive, worthwhile, change your life/outlook, content… Please point the way…
The Criterion Channel is pretty dope.
I am slightly surprised by the upset here, because I heard this news and shrugged - I feel like these articles happen every week (this is what Netflix is removing or not doing a 2nd season of, here's what's leaving Hulu foreverforever, etc). I myself rotate content providers so as not to pay for 7 at once. Seems like the nature of the walled gardens. I feel for content creators for sure but is this really new?
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:10 AM on August 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Criterion Channel is pretty dope.
I am slightly surprised by the upset here, because I heard this news and shrugged - I feel like these articles happen every week (this is what Netflix is removing or not doing a 2nd season of, here's what's leaving Hulu foreverforever, etc). I myself rotate content providers so as not to pay for 7 at once. Seems like the nature of the walled gardens. I feel for content creators for sure but is this really new?
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:10 AM on August 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
Particularly irksome is that you cannot purchase streaming content in any permanent way, as others have said. I really hate when I WANT TO pay someone for content and there's no way to do so.
That said, HBO Max can pry my "Our Flag Means Death" from my cold, gay/ENBY pirate-loving hands. I'd happily pay more per month to account for the ridiculous number of times I've watched it. If they steal my season two...
posted by biscotti at 6:18 AM on August 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
That said, HBO Max can pry my "Our Flag Means Death" from my cold, gay/ENBY pirate-loving hands. I'd happily pay more per month to account for the ridiculous number of times I've watched it. If they steal my season two...
posted by biscotti at 6:18 AM on August 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
I am slightly surprised by the upset here, because I heard this news and shrugged - I feel like these articles happen every week
What makes this a qualitatively different situation is that the new owners are memory-holing the back catalog of their own original material (including deciding not to air original material they've already paid for), and that this isn't happening at the individual shows' contract renewal milestones that could trigger a similar disappearance of quote-unquote "Netflix Originals" or "Amazon Originals" from their respective networks, but rather all at once, and as a sudden surprise to these shows' creators.
This really does represent a callous set of decisions beyond the usual it's-all-business-so-what-can-you-expect mindset.
posted by nobody at 6:34 AM on August 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
What makes this a qualitatively different situation is that the new owners are memory-holing the back catalog of their own original material (including deciding not to air original material they've already paid for), and that this isn't happening at the individual shows' contract renewal milestones that could trigger a similar disappearance of quote-unquote "Netflix Originals" or "Amazon Originals" from their respective networks, but rather all at once, and as a sudden surprise to these shows' creators.
This really does represent a callous set of decisions beyond the usual it's-all-business-so-what-can-you-expect mindset.
posted by nobody at 6:34 AM on August 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
So it was a surprise to creators as well - that stinks, for sure. Still feels all too similar, in some aspects.
Different industry, but this is why I've never let go of physical music media. The shocking ability to remove content you seem to be paying for access to...it's devastating, every time. What a shame that now so much content is ONLY available in a manner in which it can be snatched back.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:46 AM on August 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
Different industry, but this is why I've never let go of physical music media. The shocking ability to remove content you seem to be paying for access to...it's devastating, every time. What a shame that now so much content is ONLY available in a manner in which it can be snatched back.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:46 AM on August 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
I get HBO Max for free as part of my AT&T Fiber internet service, but apparently that perk has been withdrawn for newer subscribers. It wouldn't surprise me if it's rugpulled for me as well someday soon.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:52 AM on August 21, 2022
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:52 AM on August 21, 2022
I get HBO Max for free as part of my AT&T Fiber internet service, but apparently that perk has been withdrawn for newer subscribers.
AT&T used to be owned by the same parent company as HBO, so it made sense to bundle the services. They no longer are, so it no longer does (probably).
posted by primethyme at 7:12 AM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
AT&T used to be owned by the same parent company as HBO, so it made sense to bundle the services. They no longer are, so it no longer does (probably).
posted by primethyme at 7:12 AM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Whenever the rich people make some horrible decision that makes everything worse for everyone including themselves I don't understand the rush to proclaim that well folks there was actually nothing wrong with this because technically they were within their rights. We are "technically they were within their rights"-ing ourselves to hell.
In addition: the rich are the ones *making* the rules. "It's within our rights because we say it is."
There's what's legal and there's what's right and there's miles of territory between them.
posted by JDHarper at 9:06 AM on August 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
In addition: the rich are the ones *making* the rules. "It's within our rights because we say it is."
There's what's legal and there's what's right and there's miles of territory between them.
posted by JDHarper at 9:06 AM on August 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
That said, HBO Max can pry my "Our Flag Means Death" from my cold, gay/ENBY pirate-loving hands. I'd happily pay more per month to account for the ridiculous number of times I've watched it. If they steal my season two...
I have to admit, my own heart was fluttering a bit as I scrolled down to the list of cancellations.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:26 AM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have to admit, my own heart was fluttering a bit as I scrolled down to the list of cancellations.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:26 AM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
AT&T used to be owned by the same parent company as HBO, so it made sense to bundle the services. They no longer are, so it no longer does (probably).
The problem AT&T now has is that they are the only one not bundling a streaming service and are still charging the same (rather large) amount of money for their service. Their pricing isn't too bad when you have 3+ lines and can take advantage of trade in deals on phones to reduce the effective cost, but for a single person who has no need for phone deals their pricing is just excessive. The extra $15 a month value (if you were already paying for HBO Max or were interested in HBO Max) went a long way towards making it less unreasonable for people with single lines of service.
posted by wierdo at 10:36 AM on August 21, 2022
The problem AT&T now has is that they are the only one not bundling a streaming service and are still charging the same (rather large) amount of money for their service. Their pricing isn't too bad when you have 3+ lines and can take advantage of trade in deals on phones to reduce the effective cost, but for a single person who has no need for phone deals their pricing is just excessive. The extra $15 a month value (if you were already paying for HBO Max or were interested in HBO Max) went a long way towards making it less unreasonable for people with single lines of service.
posted by wierdo at 10:36 AM on August 21, 2022
HBO Max is not a public good. It is a for profit company or part of one. Maybe PBS should go back to making Sesame Street. Even they found it not worth it after decades of producing it.
This is just... not correct. Sorry.
PBS hasn't paid direct production costs for Sesame Street since almost its very inception, and even then it was only in the form of a grant - and that was only one of the grants, and not even the largest (the Carnegie Corporation and Ford Foundation's grants were larger by far). Sesame Street's only revenue from PBS is the licensing fees PBS pays to air it, which has never amounted to more than a small fraction of Sesame Street's production costs (it's never been more than ten percent and for most of the show's existence it's been more like five).
Sesame Street is produced by the Children's Television Workshop, the nonprofit that owns the show and is primarily focused, as a company, on producing it. (They used to produce multiple other educational programs, like The Electric Company, 3-2-1-Contact! and Square One, but over time they've reduced their non-Sesame production dramatically because those shows have much weaker revenue streams.) They are the ones responsible for making sure Sesame Street continues to air, and they do so by getting money wherever it is humanly possible to do so.
Merchandising and licensing fees for Sesame has been their biggest cash cow almost since the beginning: every copy of The Monster At The End Of This Book and every Tickle-Me-Elmo sold goes towards making more Sesame Street. Production agreements for international versions of Sesame Street also help: local production companies bear the bulk of the cost, but CTW assists in the development of the show and training of the local Muppeteers and they design the region-specific Muppets for each edition of the show, and then they license popular clips from the original Sesame as well. Youtube streaming profit has helped a bit as well.
The HBO streaming deal was just the most recent achievement of a new revenue stream for Sesame, and honestly it was a pretty good deal for CTW: an enormous payment for non-exclusive "premiere" airing rights (so they could still get PBS money) and archival streaming for a five-year period. It's shitty that HBO is deciding to cut back on archival streaming , but CTW already got the bulk of its money from HBO anyway.
posted by mightygodking at 11:03 AM on August 21, 2022 [21 favorites]
This is just... not correct. Sorry.
PBS hasn't paid direct production costs for Sesame Street since almost its very inception, and even then it was only in the form of a grant - and that was only one of the grants, and not even the largest (the Carnegie Corporation and Ford Foundation's grants were larger by far). Sesame Street's only revenue from PBS is the licensing fees PBS pays to air it, which has never amounted to more than a small fraction of Sesame Street's production costs (it's never been more than ten percent and for most of the show's existence it's been more like five).
Sesame Street is produced by the Children's Television Workshop, the nonprofit that owns the show and is primarily focused, as a company, on producing it. (They used to produce multiple other educational programs, like The Electric Company, 3-2-1-Contact! and Square One, but over time they've reduced their non-Sesame production dramatically because those shows have much weaker revenue streams.) They are the ones responsible for making sure Sesame Street continues to air, and they do so by getting money wherever it is humanly possible to do so.
Merchandising and licensing fees for Sesame has been their biggest cash cow almost since the beginning: every copy of The Monster At The End Of This Book and every Tickle-Me-Elmo sold goes towards making more Sesame Street. Production agreements for international versions of Sesame Street also help: local production companies bear the bulk of the cost, but CTW assists in the development of the show and training of the local Muppeteers and they design the region-specific Muppets for each edition of the show, and then they license popular clips from the original Sesame as well. Youtube streaming profit has helped a bit as well.
The HBO streaming deal was just the most recent achievement of a new revenue stream for Sesame, and honestly it was a pretty good deal for CTW: an enormous payment for non-exclusive "premiere" airing rights (so they could still get PBS money) and archival streaming for a five-year period. It's shitty that HBO is deciding to cut back on archival streaming , but CTW already got the bulk of its money from HBO anyway.
posted by mightygodking at 11:03 AM on August 21, 2022 [21 favorites]
I don't understand this sentence. Residuals are based on viewing, no? If the shows are barely watched, the residuals would not be expensive. Isn't this like firing an hourly employee who only works when you need them? What is the point?
1. Most streaming residuals these days are structured so there's a combination of payment for views plus a base payment for the show being streamed period.
2. Even then, the point isn't that the money from the residuals is a huge burden to pay. It quantitatively is not. The point is that by removing the shows from streaming, HBO/Warner/Discovery/Assholes/Etc. can claim the show as lost revenue, and then "project" the show's streaming revenue, and create a loss big enough that the tax avoidance benefit outstrips any profit the show could ever have generated via the magic of Hollywood accounting. (Most Hollywood accounting will never stand up to an actual IRS audit because it is obvious bullshit, but they don't care about that and never have, and the track record of Hollywood's audit risk makes the risk obviously worth it.)
posted by mightygodking at 11:13 AM on August 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
1. Most streaming residuals these days are structured so there's a combination of payment for views plus a base payment for the show being streamed period.
2. Even then, the point isn't that the money from the residuals is a huge burden to pay. It quantitatively is not. The point is that by removing the shows from streaming, HBO/Warner/Discovery/Assholes/Etc. can claim the show as lost revenue, and then "project" the show's streaming revenue, and create a loss big enough that the tax avoidance benefit outstrips any profit the show could ever have generated via the magic of Hollywood accounting. (Most Hollywood accounting will never stand up to an actual IRS audit because it is obvious bullshit, but they don't care about that and never have, and the track record of Hollywood's audit risk makes the risk obviously worth it.)
posted by mightygodking at 11:13 AM on August 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
So The Producers is retroactively a true story. Of course, it was only a matter of time.
posted by bleep at 12:51 PM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 12:51 PM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes, I think it fair to say The Producers was a documentary when it was made, and nothing's changed since then.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:15 PM on August 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:15 PM on August 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
@FreyjaErlings:
People all like "wow all those cartoons are getting scrubbed because of tiny residuals payments or taxes" and I'm like don't be silly. They were also all queer themed cartoonsposted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:33 PM on August 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
You think it's a coincidence that this will completely ruin the careers of many queer creatives? Ha ha the new CEO is a trumplinger
As far as I'm concerned, piracy is a moral imperative when content is locked up purely to avoid paying the creators for their work.The two things I’d do to fix copyright would be having rights assignments automatically terminate if there was more than, say, a two month lapse in widespread availability to purchase a non-time limited license at market prices (i.e. no games requiring streaming service membership or “ultimate collector’s edition” pricing), and an annual registration fee kicking in after a few decades and ramping up sharply to discourage hoarding. I mind Disney paying to lock up Mickey Mouse a lot less than all of the niche stuff which is basically unavailable unless you have access to a good film library.
posted by adamsc at 1:43 PM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I wish I could just buy the TCM channel stream someplace. Our DISH costs us SO much money every month but that is the ONE thing we watch most in this house and it is only available on the very top tier.
The cost would be high, with no ads.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 2:02 PM on August 21, 2022
The cost would be high, with no ads.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 2:02 PM on August 21, 2022
For years, I was grandfathered into TCM on my cheap basic cable package. Then when the company upgraded their equipment, the old service wouldn't work on the new box. But hey, I now had ten sports channels you couldn't pay me to watch.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:26 PM on August 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:26 PM on August 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
HBOMax has a good selection of TCM content hidden down at the bottom of the interface.
posted by octothorpe at 2:43 PM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 2:43 PM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
HBOMax has a good selection of TCM content hidden down at the bottom of the interface.
None of which is the TCM channel curated stream like you'd get over cable or satellite.
posted by hippybear at 3:42 PM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
None of which is the TCM channel curated stream like you'd get over cable or satellite.
posted by hippybear at 3:42 PM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
HBOMax has a good selection of TCM content hidden down at the bottom of the interface.
Also, a Studio Ghibli section.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:07 PM on August 21, 2022
Also, a Studio Ghibli section.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:07 PM on August 21, 2022
You think it's a coincidence that this will completely ruin the careers of many queer creatives? Ha ha the new CEO is a trumplinger
No question there are knock-on effects, but if LGBTQ+ shows are being targeted for removal from HBO for that reason and not the usual business economics, that's a pretty big story. Hope one of MeFi's NYTimes reporters is paying attention, if so.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:18 PM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
No question there are knock-on effects, but if LGBTQ+ shows are being targeted for removal from HBO for that reason and not the usual business economics, that's a pretty big story. Hope one of MeFi's NYTimes reporters is paying attention, if so.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:18 PM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sometimes people do things for a mix of reasons that may not even be totally clear to them.
posted by bleep at 5:45 PM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 5:45 PM on August 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
As part of the stock spinoff, I got about $200 of Warner stock in my 401k. It has lost at least 30 percent since then. I assume they're in panic mode right now. At least the phone company isn't trying to be a Hollywood power player anymore.
posted by soelo at 6:48 PM on August 21, 2022
posted by soelo at 6:48 PM on August 21, 2022
You think it's a coincidence that this will completely ruin the careers of many queer creatives? Ha ha the new CEO is a trumplinger
Citation needed on that. Available evidence indicates otherwise. Listed here as "donor to Democrats."
posted by LooseFilter at 8:03 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Citation needed on that. Available evidence indicates otherwise. Listed here as "donor to Democrats."
posted by LooseFilter at 8:03 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would really ask that we not promote pirated content, as the end result of “free” content is that creators/tech teams/etc. etc. don’t get paid, and behemoth companies also perceive lower value and don’t pay creators.
This doesn't harm the actors. Actors in new works don't get paid residuals for streaming services anyway.
And honestly? Even if they did, this is one of those situations where we can all lose out, artists not getting paid and viewers not getting content, or only the former loses out. (And then I would suggest that those actors and other creatives who are members of unions should try applying some pressure somewhere, because I don't think the viewers are going to be able to do anything to fix this.)
I know it all seems wrong because "stealing," but I suspect that people pirating works that there is literally no way to get legally aren't harming anyone. At all. In any way.
posted by nushustu at 11:25 AM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
This doesn't harm the actors. Actors in new works don't get paid residuals for streaming services anyway.
And honestly? Even if they did, this is one of those situations where we can all lose out, artists not getting paid and viewers not getting content, or only the former loses out. (And then I would suggest that those actors and other creatives who are members of unions should try applying some pressure somewhere, because I don't think the viewers are going to be able to do anything to fix this.)
I know it all seems wrong because "stealing," but I suspect that people pirating works that there is literally no way to get legally aren't harming anyone. At all. In any way.
posted by nushustu at 11:25 AM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
KnowledgeHusk has a good breakdown of the current state of the streaming wars.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:22 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:22 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
It might not necessarily be just about tax breaks and profit maximising, it might just be plain old queerphobia.
posted by MartinWisse at 2:28 PM on August 22, 2022
posted by MartinWisse at 2:28 PM on August 22, 2022
Yeah, although the amazingly, beautifully queer Our Flag Means Death was a runaway hit and it would have been hard to justify the number of subscribers they might lose if they hadn't renewed, it's also hard to escape noticing just how careful they were over how it was originally billed (a quirky workplace comedy!) and how a lot of the explicitly queer content occurred in episodes released after the first few installments reviewers had access to.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:42 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:42 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Update: I'm not finding an authoritative link for it, but it looks like Summer Camp Island's been rescued by its original pre-HBOMax network, whose corporate parent is...Warner/Discovery itself. In a sane environment, maybe these things could have been worked out in advance, and at least communicated to the shows' creators and crew?
posted by nobody at 9:28 PM on August 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nobody at 9:28 PM on August 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't understand this sentence. Residuals are based on viewing, no? If the shows are barely watched, the residuals would not be expensive. Isn't this like firing an hourly employee who only works when you need them? What is the point?
The point is to fire that employee. They are confident they will lose no significant number of subscribers over the cancellations as those users will, in theory, just stream other content on their platform. So they have cut costs and increased their profits by shifting their existing customers to non-residual-paying content.
Now clearly any production company working with HBO should, going forward, negotiate larger payouts upfront and actors likewise should see more upfront in order to negate HBO savings. Additionally production companies should put in some sort of use-it-or-lose-it clause for IP rights to be returned to the producers for shelved content.
posted by srboisvert at 1:24 PM on August 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
The point is to fire that employee. They are confident they will lose no significant number of subscribers over the cancellations as those users will, in theory, just stream other content on their platform. So they have cut costs and increased their profits by shifting their existing customers to non-residual-paying content.
Now clearly any production company working with HBO should, going forward, negotiate larger payouts upfront and actors likewise should see more upfront in order to negate HBO savings. Additionally production companies should put in some sort of use-it-or-lose-it clause for IP rights to be returned to the producers for shelved content.
posted by srboisvert at 1:24 PM on August 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Wow, so many terrible decisions being made!
Warner Bros. Discovery Lost $20 Billion in Market Cap Trying to Cut $3 Billion in Costs.
posted by merriment at 2:07 PM on August 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Warner Bros. Discovery Lost $20 Billion in Market Cap Trying to Cut $3 Billion in Costs.
posted by merriment at 2:07 PM on August 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
If you learned about sundown towns from Lovecraft Country or the Tulsa race massacre from Watchmen you know the power of art and you’re learning the price of HBO Max firing executives of color left and right. (SLTweet)
posted by Etrigan at 4:27 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 4:27 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
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Seriously though, removing "clutter" on a streaming service is good I guess, but if they remove the less watched (but still high quality) titles and all we're left with is HBOs greatest hits or nothing but Marvel movies then what's even the point? Eventually they'll discover they can save even more money by streaming just one movie at a time to everyone on a predetermined schedule and they'll have reinvented their cable channel. Then we'll get to watch Indiana Jones and the Temple Of Doom 5 times a day like we did in the late 1980s!
posted by flamk at 10:16 AM on August 20, 2022 [29 favorites]