Nazi! I’m not, see?
August 24, 2022 10:55 AM Subscribe
The Carlos Danger Effect was thus cast.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 11:12 AM on August 24, 2022
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 11:12 AM on August 24, 2022
No is the answer. You cannot ever trust a former white nationalist.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:22 AM on August 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:22 AM on August 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
Next up, NYT profiles on 'ex-alt-right' personalities talking about how their politics have (supposedly) changed, but they're still very dapper.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:23 AM on August 24, 2022 [30 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 11:23 AM on August 24, 2022 [30 favorites]
As I read this, I keep thinking back to culturally Christian ideas of redemption, repentance, and forgiveness, which create a... mm, call it a system of cultural blind spots that grifters can use to protect themselves from consequences and censure. The idea that everyone deserves forgiveness the moment they say "I'm sorry", whether or not they actually put work into trying to redress the wrongs they committed in the first place, is... pernicious. And it certainly creeps into the public discourse about cases like this, even if the people speaking aren't personally religious themselves.
That said, I don't think there is a pat answer to the question of "can you ever trust someone with a far-right past/is redemption even possible?" Honestly, I think ideally you should want the answer to be mixed: you want it to be possible to reward people who change their behavior with a guarded reintroduction to society, but people with histories like that should be closely watched for the foreseeable future. Some people can trust them, but not everyone can or should do so. The history of the actions that individual people take writes their resume, and that should factor into the way that they are treated moving forward.
posted by sciatrix at 11:37 AM on August 24, 2022 [91 favorites]
That said, I don't think there is a pat answer to the question of "can you ever trust someone with a far-right past/is redemption even possible?" Honestly, I think ideally you should want the answer to be mixed: you want it to be possible to reward people who change their behavior with a guarded reintroduction to society, but people with histories like that should be closely watched for the foreseeable future. Some people can trust them, but not everyone can or should do so. The history of the actions that individual people take writes their resume, and that should factor into the way that they are treated moving forward.
posted by sciatrix at 11:37 AM on August 24, 2022 [91 favorites]
FTA (emphasis mine):
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2022 [57 favorites]
After his departure, though, Schoep refused to provide anti-racist organizations with NSM’s membership lists or other information that could help authorities target the group.Maya was 100% correct, when someone tells you who they are believe them.
“It wasn’t mine to just give away,” Schoep said, citing alleged non-disclosure agreements that NSM members sign and comparing such disclosures to corporate espionage. “It’s like saying, ‘Well, if you worked for Apple and now you are working with IBM, how come you didn’t take all the schematics and things Apple was working on and hand them over to their competitor?’ You just don’t do that. It’s not ethically sound.”
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2022 [57 favorites]
Each passing moment is different from the one before. We build libraries to open minds, to the writing arts, to document ideas from the past, current thinking, fiction based upon the future. We don't do this hoping people will not change; we do this to broaden perspective, so we, a documented, violent species, may soften our edginess, our harshness, quell our fearful approach to the everyday. On the positive side, that we may know of others outside of a fearful, personal context.
So these followers of the Right Nationalist wave, a world wide phenomenon, want to appear changed, and maybe they are, in perspective. Their need to surf the waves of culture and politics, is probably more basic. They are people, people. Which seems like people squared, (*sigh*,) I wish their impulses were less harmful.
posted by Oyéah at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
So these followers of the Right Nationalist wave, a world wide phenomenon, want to appear changed, and maybe they are, in perspective. Their need to surf the waves of culture and politics, is probably more basic. They are people, people. Which seems like people squared, (*sigh*,) I wish their impulses were less harmful.
posted by Oyéah at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Can You Ever Trust a Former White Nationalist?"
Maybe.
"Can you ever trust a white nationalist to be former?"
No.
posted by MrJM at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
Maybe.
"Can you ever trust a white nationalist to be former?"
No.
posted by MrJM at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
“It wasn’t mine to just give away,” Schoep said, citing alleged non-disclosure agreements that NSM members sign and comparing such disclosures to corporate espionage. “It’s like saying, ‘Well, if you worked for Apple and now you are working with IBM, how come you didn’t take all the schematics and things Apple was working on and hand them over to their competitor?’ You just don’t do that. It’s not ethically sound.”
This is a man who thinks he switched jobs between competing companies rather than defecting from the aggressors in a genocidal war.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:59 AM on August 24, 2022 [121 favorites]
This is a man who thinks he switched jobs between competing companies rather than defecting from the aggressors in a genocidal war.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:59 AM on August 24, 2022 [121 favorites]
For McHugh, it was, at least in part, a bid for redemption. “Certainly you become scared, but you know in your soul that it is the right thing to do,” she said. “These are extremely bad people; they are going to hurt more people. I have to do something.”
Wait, so you're telling me you weren't convinced they were bad people before...? White nationalism is not about puppy cuddles, ma'am. They were the baddies from the jump, but I am glad you developed a conscience, I guess.
posted by Kitteh at 12:19 PM on August 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
Wait, so you're telling me you weren't convinced they were bad people before...? White nationalism is not about puppy cuddles, ma'am. They were the baddies from the jump, but I am glad you developed a conscience, I guess.
posted by Kitteh at 12:19 PM on August 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
Every time Light Upon Light comes up they seem not good. Like their main job is, well, whitewashing?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:24 PM on August 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:24 PM on August 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
The idea that everyone deserves forgiveness the moment they say "I'm sorry", whether or not they actually put work into trying to redress the wrongs they committed in the first place, is... pernicious.
This is one thing I highly value about Judaism — you can only ask G-d for forgiveness for sins against G-d, not for sins against other people. It becomes very important nearing Yom Kippur - acknowledgement and restitution for things you have done to others must be directed to the person harmed. That is our obligation.
The thinking around forgiveness in many Christian circles strikes me as a Get Out Of Jail Free card model, and it is shocking that so many people find this spiritually consistent or acceptable.
posted by Silvery Fish at 12:43 PM on August 24, 2022 [86 favorites]
This is one thing I highly value about Judaism — you can only ask G-d for forgiveness for sins against G-d, not for sins against other people. It becomes very important nearing Yom Kippur - acknowledgement and restitution for things you have done to others must be directed to the person harmed. That is our obligation.
The thinking around forgiveness in many Christian circles strikes me as a Get Out Of Jail Free card model, and it is shocking that so many people find this spiritually consistent or acceptable.
posted by Silvery Fish at 12:43 PM on August 24, 2022 [86 favorites]
I grew up in a racist and homophobic society, so I was too. The homosexual act itself was illegal when I was born, so the government itself supported homophobia. Being racist wasn't a choice, it was the default setting.
All of that is long gone. I matured, met people, the myths didn't match reality, I lost the hate. The culture moved on, too. In the view from my apartment I see several pride flags.
I was racist and homophobic. I didn't get a swastika tattooed on my face, but it is part of my identity. That's where I came from. I celebrate how far I've come from there and who I am now. I feel like I escaped all the social pressure to be an asshole so I can be who I really am.
This does not earn me a gold medal. Nobody owes me anything. My contrition, it's there if you want it, but nobody owes me forgiveness. I don't think that's how it works.
posted by adept256 at 12:52 PM on August 24, 2022 [64 favorites]
All of that is long gone. I matured, met people, the myths didn't match reality, I lost the hate. The culture moved on, too. In the view from my apartment I see several pride flags.
I was racist and homophobic. I didn't get a swastika tattooed on my face, but it is part of my identity. That's where I came from. I celebrate how far I've come from there and who I am now. I feel like I escaped all the social pressure to be an asshole so I can be who I really am.
This does not earn me a gold medal. Nobody owes me anything. My contrition, it's there if you want it, but nobody owes me forgiveness. I don't think that's how it works.
posted by adept256 at 12:52 PM on August 24, 2022 [64 favorites]
The problem I have in discussing 'can you ever trust a White Nationalist?' is that everything we are likely to say about it will have a very close counterpart in what White Nationalists themselves are likely to say when they discuss 'can you ever trust a [racial/ethnic slur]?' — and they seem to have that discussion all the time.
There must be a way of opposing White Nationalists with all our might and yet without talking like they do, without thinking like they do.
posted by jamjam at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
There must be a way of opposing White Nationalists with all our might and yet without talking like they do, without thinking like they do.
posted by jamjam at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
Can You Ever Trust a Former White Nationalist?
Choose one:
[] No
[] Fuck no
[] Oh hells no
posted by Thorzdad at 1:25 PM on August 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
Choose one:
[] No
[] Fuck no
[] Oh hells no
posted by Thorzdad at 1:25 PM on August 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
I did nazi that coming.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:28 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:28 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
The answer of course is "it depends."
But when I see this
posted by tclark at 1:30 PM on August 24, 2022 [44 favorites]
But when I see this
"After his departure, though, Schoep refused to provide anti-racist organizations with NSM’s membership lists or other information that could help authorities target the group"I don't see a former white nationalist. I see merely a temporarily paused one.
posted by tclark at 1:30 PM on August 24, 2022 [44 favorites]
Remember a while back when people were talking about how to make solid, effective, meaningful apologies?
posted by neuracnu at 1:41 PM on August 24, 2022 [38 favorites]
- Acknowledge what you did specifically
- Explain, in detail, the effect that your action had and acknowledge that it was wrong for you to have taken that action.
- Commit to action that makes-right the damage that you've done and to never doing that action again.
- Ask for forgiveness with no expectation of receiving it (ever).
posted by neuracnu at 1:41 PM on August 24, 2022 [38 favorites]
If we can’t find a way, then there is no way forward. If there is no opportunity to change and join up with the side of justice what are we even doing?
Has the prison industrial complex truly gotten into the psyche so deeply that people don’t even believe rehabilitation is possible anymore? That’s not the fight I signed up for.
Because HELL YES people can and do change. I know people I wouldn’t have trusted with my home zipcode that I now trust to help me in my home. Why in fuck’s sake would we make it so the only direction people can flow is towards white supremacy? Shouldn’t we all be pulling people out of that trench with all our might?
posted by Bottlecap at 1:53 PM on August 24, 2022 [46 favorites]
Has the prison industrial complex truly gotten into the psyche so deeply that people don’t even believe rehabilitation is possible anymore? That’s not the fight I signed up for.
Because HELL YES people can and do change. I know people I wouldn’t have trusted with my home zipcode that I now trust to help me in my home. Why in fuck’s sake would we make it so the only direction people can flow is towards white supremacy? Shouldn’t we all be pulling people out of that trench with all our might?
posted by Bottlecap at 1:53 PM on August 24, 2022 [46 favorites]
Out from the kitchen, to the bathroom, to the hallwaaay,
your friend apologizes, he can see it my waaay.
He let the contents of the bottle, do the thinkiiing,
can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
- They Might Be Giants (who have a song for everything), Your Racist Friend
posted by JHarris at 2:24 PM on August 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
your friend apologizes, he can see it my waaay.
He let the contents of the bottle, do the thinkiiing,
can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
- They Might Be Giants (who have a song for everything), Your Racist Friend
posted by JHarris at 2:24 PM on August 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
I would phrase is as:
What is the upside to trusting them and being right vs the downside of trusting them and being wrong?
Risk:Reward analysis to me feels like it it comes down pretty strong on 𝙽𝚘.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 2:27 PM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Can one ever risk trusting a former White Nationalist?Whether or not they are trustworthy is immaterial, because you can never look into their heart and know the truth.
What is the upside to trusting them and being right vs the downside of trusting them and being wrong?
Risk:Reward analysis to me feels like it it comes down pretty strong on 𝙽𝚘.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 2:27 PM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
No.
posted by nushustu at 2:32 PM on August 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 2:32 PM on August 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
People can and do change, but that doesn't mean they're owed equivalent social access/respect/roles.
To borrow a specific example from a different context, Louis CK may eventually recant (his recent tour suggests it's not any time soon though), but that wouldn't mean he should be getting the same benefit of the doubt when it comes to being in scenarios where he'd be in a position to lock women in a room alone with him. And it doesn't mean that he's owed his audience going right back to laughing at his jokes about how creepy & sexually assaultive he *wants* to be, but he'd never actually do it (right?).
I could trust Louis CK, insurance agent. At least within the realm of insurance-agent-y things. Or maybe Louis CK, lab technician. But I'm not sure it's throwing rehabilitation out the window to think maybe he's not suited for working at a domestic violence shelter.
To bring it back to the article & prompt on hand,
"And it’s not a process that happens quickly, she said, noting the many current “former” White nationalists who rapidly became public figures within months of leaving. At that point, Martinez said, “You don’t even know the sickness you have yet.”"
"And so, over the last few years, the idea of the remorseful “former White nationalist” has come into vogue, featured in popular books, a catalogue of TED Talks, and a growing industry of media figures who’ve built personal brands out of being a “former.”"
Even within the sphere of people doing the work, there's people going "hold-up, this is too quick & too pat of a conversion narrative". And America *loves* conversion narratives. So it makes sense to be cautious. Doubly so when you end up with a not-uncommon pattern where someone doubles back or n-times-back replays the conversion narrative. Lots of internet white supremacists who 'convert', then they start advocating for Red/Brown socialism, then eventually drop the Red and try to bring people back over to National Socialism.
Or your Greenwaldian/Maherian "The Left lost me by going too woke!" takes.
posted by CrystalDave at 2:34 PM on August 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
To borrow a specific example from a different context, Louis CK may eventually recant (his recent tour suggests it's not any time soon though), but that wouldn't mean he should be getting the same benefit of the doubt when it comes to being in scenarios where he'd be in a position to lock women in a room alone with him. And it doesn't mean that he's owed his audience going right back to laughing at his jokes about how creepy & sexually assaultive he *wants* to be, but he'd never actually do it (right?).
I could trust Louis CK, insurance agent. At least within the realm of insurance-agent-y things. Or maybe Louis CK, lab technician. But I'm not sure it's throwing rehabilitation out the window to think maybe he's not suited for working at a domestic violence shelter.
To bring it back to the article & prompt on hand,
"And it’s not a process that happens quickly, she said, noting the many current “former” White nationalists who rapidly became public figures within months of leaving. At that point, Martinez said, “You don’t even know the sickness you have yet.”"
"And so, over the last few years, the idea of the remorseful “former White nationalist” has come into vogue, featured in popular books, a catalogue of TED Talks, and a growing industry of media figures who’ve built personal brands out of being a “former.”"
Even within the sphere of people doing the work, there's people going "hold-up, this is too quick & too pat of a conversion narrative". And America *loves* conversion narratives. So it makes sense to be cautious. Doubly so when you end up with a not-uncommon pattern where someone doubles back or n-times-back replays the conversion narrative. Lots of internet white supremacists who 'convert', then they start advocating for Red/Brown socialism, then eventually drop the Red and try to bring people back over to National Socialism.
Or your Greenwaldian/Maherian "The Left lost me by going too woke!" takes.
posted by CrystalDave at 2:34 PM on August 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
𝙲𝚊𝚗 𝚘𝚗𝚎 ever 𝚛𝚒𝚜𝚔 𝚝𝚛𝚞𝚜𝚝𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚊 𝚏𝚘𝚛𝚖𝚎𝚛 𝚆𝚑𝚒𝚝𝚎 𝙽𝚊𝚝𝚒𝚘𝚗𝚊𝚕𝚒𝚜𝚝?
This text is not Latin alphabet characters, and not compatible with screen readers. Please do not use this method of emphasis.
posted by agentofselection at 2:37 PM on August 24, 2022 [29 favorites]
This text is not Latin alphabet characters, and not compatible with screen readers. Please do not use this method of emphasis.
posted by agentofselection at 2:37 PM on August 24, 2022 [29 favorites]
One of the very best pieces of journalism I've ever read would say yes.
The White Flight of Derek Black, by the WaPo's gifted Eli Saslow, tells the story of the heir apparent to Stormfront, who went to an extremely liberal college, was befriended by some truly good and patient people (disclosure: I know a couple of them personally) and broke from his past.
(Later expanded into a pretty good book; here's an interview with Saslow about it.)
I corresponded with Black a couple of times when this came out, follow him on Twitter, and seems like he's still OK.
posted by martin q blank at 2:37 PM on August 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
The White Flight of Derek Black, by the WaPo's gifted Eli Saslow, tells the story of the heir apparent to Stormfront, who went to an extremely liberal college, was befriended by some truly good and patient people (disclosure: I know a couple of them personally) and broke from his past.
(Later expanded into a pretty good book; here's an interview with Saslow about it.)
I corresponded with Black a couple of times when this came out, follow him on Twitter, and seems like he's still OK.
posted by martin q blank at 2:37 PM on August 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
There must be a way of opposing White Nationalists with all our might and yet without talking like they do, without thinking like they do.
Good news then - we're not! There is a vast, vast difference between holding someone accountable for their behavior, and impuning that someone has horrible morals because of characteristics that have nothing to do with morality. No matter how similar they may look on the most superficial level.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:38 PM on August 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
Good news then - we're not! There is a vast, vast difference between holding someone accountable for their behavior, and impuning that someone has horrible morals because of characteristics that have nothing to do with morality. No matter how similar they may look on the most superficial level.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:38 PM on August 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
Of course we have to be open, to make space for people to truly change. And of course no one is crazy for being skeptical that years of corrosive hatred could be turned around in weeks.
I think the apparent conflict arises because we (and the story) are all implicitly talking about highly visible leaders, influencers, and taste-makers, not John Q. Bigot. People whose reforms are, regardless of whatever else they might be, public performances.
I don't think it's wrong to judge those public-figure stories differently, more critically, more skeptically. I think it would be foolish not to. Tell me your racist uncle changed over the years, and I'll applaud. Tell me the "commander" of the National Socialist Movement turned over a new leaf last week so now he gets to be on mainstream TV, and I'll guffaw. I hold different standards for those different situations.
I think Jon_Evil got it right from the jump.
posted by Western Infidels at 2:43 PM on August 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
I think the apparent conflict arises because we (and the story) are all implicitly talking about highly visible leaders, influencers, and taste-makers, not John Q. Bigot. People whose reforms are, regardless of whatever else they might be, public performances.
I don't think it's wrong to judge those public-figure stories differently, more critically, more skeptically. I think it would be foolish not to. Tell me your racist uncle changed over the years, and I'll applaud. Tell me the "commander" of the National Socialist Movement turned over a new leaf last week so now he gets to be on mainstream TV, and I'll guffaw. I hold different standards for those different situations.
I think Jon_Evil got it right from the jump.
posted by Western Infidels at 2:43 PM on August 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
The problem I have in discussing 'can you ever trust a White Nationalist?' is that everything we are likely to say about it will have a very close counterpart in what White Nationalists themselves are likely to say when they discuss 'can you ever trust a [racial/ethnic slur]?' — and they seem to have that discussion all the time.
This equates someone’s choices (to be a violent racist) with someone’s immutable aspects (their race or ethnicity).
These two things are not a same.
It is valid to judge someone for their choices and actions. Frankly, what other valid criteria could you possibly use?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:48 PM on August 24, 2022 [22 favorites]
This equates someone’s choices (to be a violent racist) with someone’s immutable aspects (their race or ethnicity).
These two things are not a same.
It is valid to judge someone for their choices and actions. Frankly, what other valid criteria could you possibly use?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:48 PM on August 24, 2022 [22 favorites]
What is the upside to trusting them and being right vs the downside of trusting them 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙗𝙚𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙬𝙧𝙤𝙣𝙜?
Risk:Reward analysis to me feels like it it comes down pretty strong on 𝙽𝚘.
That's odd, when you put it that way it was a pretty strong yes to me. What are the downsides of trusting them and being wrong? About the same as trusting someone you think was never / will never become a white nationalist and being wrong, seems to me. Being right encourages more people to move away from that ideology.
The unstated part of this is trust them with what? It's not like you need to give them an MSNBC show (little side-eye at that happening) or invite them to your party. But it doesn't seem like McHugh is playing some deep game when she reveals the documents and e-mails she got.
I'm also bemused by the fact that this article has so many examples of these supposedly former ones being untrustworthy. Like, if you're hanging out with Andy Ngo you aren't to be trusted, even if I didn't know your background. Knowing it removes any doubt about your motivations, though.
posted by mark k at 2:59 PM on August 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Risk:Reward analysis to me feels like it it comes down pretty strong on 𝙽𝚘.
That's odd, when you put it that way it was a pretty strong yes to me. What are the downsides of trusting them and being wrong? About the same as trusting someone you think was never / will never become a white nationalist and being wrong, seems to me. Being right encourages more people to move away from that ideology.
The unstated part of this is trust them with what? It's not like you need to give them an MSNBC show (little side-eye at that happening) or invite them to your party. But it doesn't seem like McHugh is playing some deep game when she reveals the documents and e-mails she got.
I'm also bemused by the fact that this article has so many examples of these supposedly former ones being untrustworthy. Like, if you're hanging out with Andy Ngo you aren't to be trusted, even if I didn't know your background. Knowing it removes any doubt about your motivations, though.
posted by mark k at 2:59 PM on August 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
trust them with what?
Law enforcement, border patrol, real estate broker, SSI agent.
posted by Horkus at 3:04 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Law enforcement, border patrol, real estate broker, SSI agent.
posted by Horkus at 3:04 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Has the prison industrial complex truly gotten into the psyche so deeply that people don’t even believe rehabilitation is possible anymore? That’s not the fight I signed up for.
So, what does rehabilitation mean, exactly? This is the heart of the issue, because as was pointed out by several commenters, we live in a culture that has a very twisted, unhealthy view of rehabilitation, forgiveness, and redemption - and too often, it's the vulnerable and abused who pay the price.
As I've stated in other threads, the first step, the one thing that rehabilitation is built on, is contrition. For me, contrition is about someone's recognition of their misdeeds and the harm they did through them, and a resolution to be better. From there, the work of rehabilitation follows through growth and atonement - learning how to be better and making amends for past harms. As such, the person being rehabilitated has obligations to those whom they harmed to make things right, with no expectation of reciprocation - after all, it was them who committed the harm, not their victims.
The problem that I see too often is that the victimized and abused are told that they have obligations to those that harmed them - that somehow they are obligated to provide support for their abuser's moral growth. Not only is this wrong, it comes across to me as a form of further abuse, as victims owe their abusers nothing. Worse, some of these arguments tread into gaslighting territory, like the argument that they should forgive their abuser "for themselves".
The other thing (and this comes back to Christian concepts of being "cleansed") is that rehabilitation and forgiveness are viewed as wiping the slate clean - which is not how this works at all. For me, part of the rehabilitation process is acknowledgement that one's abuses may very well mean that others will not trust that person.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:41 PM on August 24, 2022 [31 favorites]
So, what does rehabilitation mean, exactly? This is the heart of the issue, because as was pointed out by several commenters, we live in a culture that has a very twisted, unhealthy view of rehabilitation, forgiveness, and redemption - and too often, it's the vulnerable and abused who pay the price.
As I've stated in other threads, the first step, the one thing that rehabilitation is built on, is contrition. For me, contrition is about someone's recognition of their misdeeds and the harm they did through them, and a resolution to be better. From there, the work of rehabilitation follows through growth and atonement - learning how to be better and making amends for past harms. As such, the person being rehabilitated has obligations to those whom they harmed to make things right, with no expectation of reciprocation - after all, it was them who committed the harm, not their victims.
The problem that I see too often is that the victimized and abused are told that they have obligations to those that harmed them - that somehow they are obligated to provide support for their abuser's moral growth. Not only is this wrong, it comes across to me as a form of further abuse, as victims owe their abusers nothing. Worse, some of these arguments tread into gaslighting territory, like the argument that they should forgive their abuser "for themselves".
The other thing (and this comes back to Christian concepts of being "cleansed") is that rehabilitation and forgiveness are viewed as wiping the slate clean - which is not how this works at all. For me, part of the rehabilitation process is acknowledgement that one's abuses may very well mean that others will not trust that person.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:41 PM on August 24, 2022 [31 favorites]
What are the downsides of trusting them and being wrong? About the same as trusting someone you think was never / will never become a white nationalist and being wrong, seems to me
I would gently suggest that is the answer of a white person.
A POC would likely tell you that the downside is that they try to hurt or kill you, and because you trusted them they now have the opportunity.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:42 PM on August 24, 2022 [30 favorites]
I would gently suggest that is the answer of a white person.
A POC would likely tell you that the downside is that they try to hurt or kill you, and because you trusted them they now have the opportunity.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:42 PM on August 24, 2022 [30 favorites]
I think that people can and do change, and when they do they should be commended for doing it. I think that we can truly admire the courage and insight some people show in getting themselves away from that shit and trying make amends. I also think that if a person like that ever believes that they've made enough amends and it's time for people to stop taking their past into account, that's a pretty good sign that they haven't changed enough to be trusted.
I think part of the work of being better is accepting that you will never be a person who never did or believed those things, and you will never have the right to ask people to stop taking your past into account. You can hope that people will treat you like someone who is not a nazi. You cannot demand that they treat you like someone who never was one.
posted by BlueNorther at 3:44 PM on August 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
I think part of the work of being better is accepting that you will never be a person who never did or believed those things, and you will never have the right to ask people to stop taking your past into account. You can hope that people will treat you like someone who is not a nazi. You cannot demand that they treat you like someone who never was one.
posted by BlueNorther at 3:44 PM on August 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
I feel like anyone engaging with this topic without having read Hannah Arendt might perhaps go read some Arendt.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:51 PM on August 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 5:51 PM on August 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
I don't even know who Hannah Arendt is. Never heard of her. There are billions of women, who have never described their abuse to anyone. Much less written about it, at least a billion of them aren't even allowed to learn to write.
posted by Oyéah at 6:03 PM on August 24, 2022
posted by Oyéah at 6:03 PM on August 24, 2022
Tolerance is Not a Moral Precept:
At what point is a so-called “former Nazi” extended the protection of the Peace Treaty? How much contrition and remorse must the express, and for how long, before they are no longer treated as a pariah and are welcomed back into society?
When do they not automatically get kicked out of the bar anymore?
If a Nazi is ever to EARN tolerance, the bar must be set QUITE high. And even then, one never turns one’s back on them again.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:29 PM on August 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty. Tolerance is a social norm because it allows different people to live side-by-side without being at each other’s throats. It means that we accept that people may be different from us, in their customs, in their behavior, in their dress, in their sex lives, and that if this doesn’t directly affect our lives, it is none of our business. But the model of a peace treaty differs from the model of a moral precept in one simple way: the protection of a peace treaty only extends to those willing to abide by its terms. It is an agreement to live in peace, not an agreement to be peaceful no matter the conduct of others. A peace treaty is not a suicide pact.As Karl Popper put it, Any movement that preaches intolerance must be outside of the law., because to allow the intolerant within a tolerant society will lead to the end of tolerance.
At what point is a so-called “former Nazi” extended the protection of the Peace Treaty? How much contrition and remorse must the express, and for how long, before they are no longer treated as a pariah and are welcomed back into society?
When do they not automatically get kicked out of the bar anymore?
If a Nazi is ever to EARN tolerance, the bar must be set QUITE high. And even then, one never turns one’s back on them again.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:29 PM on August 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
Ok, I get that it's not fair, but I think of it like why armies take prisoners during war: it's to give people a means out that is not conflict or violence.
And that's a goal: we want to encourage defection from the causes of racism and fascism. And to achieve that, we have to allow a certain quota of assholes and cowards that are allowed to slink away into the shadows. And some of those scum will retrograde and go back to the movement.
But it's hard, because there are so many renegers and bad-faith weasels within the defectors. But along with that are people who have developed a conscience (rare) and a lot more people who've simply learned the hard way that the far right is a toxic and terrible place that strives to make you toxic and terrible and isolated.
We're not going to pull off a red terror in this moment. It took hundreds of millions dead to get a Nuremberg (and thousands of fascists escaped from that).
So it's not about fairness and justice. It's about allowing a surrender rather than having a firefight. It's strategic, another tactic in the war. The right abuses our mercy, certainly; but the balance of power is such that we must be strategic in our fights, when we are engaged in a war of hearts and minds.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 7:40 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
And that's a goal: we want to encourage defection from the causes of racism and fascism. And to achieve that, we have to allow a certain quota of assholes and cowards that are allowed to slink away into the shadows. And some of those scum will retrograde and go back to the movement.
But it's hard, because there are so many renegers and bad-faith weasels within the defectors. But along with that are people who have developed a conscience (rare) and a lot more people who've simply learned the hard way that the far right is a toxic and terrible place that strives to make you toxic and terrible and isolated.
We're not going to pull off a red terror in this moment. It took hundreds of millions dead to get a Nuremberg (and thousands of fascists escaped from that).
So it's not about fairness and justice. It's about allowing a surrender rather than having a firefight. It's strategic, another tactic in the war. The right abuses our mercy, certainly; but the balance of power is such that we must be strategic in our fights, when we are engaged in a war of hearts and minds.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 7:40 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
So it's not about fairness and justice. It's about allowing a surrender rather than having a firefight. It's strategic, another tactic in the war. The right abuses our mercy, certainly; but the balance of power is such that we must be strategic in our fights, when we are engaged in a war of hearts and minds.
To paraphrase an earlier response, this sounds much like the answer of a cis white male, who likely won't face the repercussions of being wrong, where it's easy to talk of "being strategic" when the repercussions are academic. Beyond that, as I brought up in prior discussions, how does it look to the people abused and victimized by these groups that we appear to spend more consideration on their abusers rather than the ones who have actually been harmed?
I'll also point out that when armies take prisoners, they don't just let them free - they keep them contained in such a way as to remove them from the fight, and they very much do not extend trust to them - there is a reason traitors are rarely remembered fondly on either side of the conflict. So that's another way this particular metaphor winds up not actually working.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:36 PM on August 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
To paraphrase an earlier response, this sounds much like the answer of a cis white male, who likely won't face the repercussions of being wrong, where it's easy to talk of "being strategic" when the repercussions are academic. Beyond that, as I brought up in prior discussions, how does it look to the people abused and victimized by these groups that we appear to spend more consideration on their abusers rather than the ones who have actually been harmed?
I'll also point out that when armies take prisoners, they don't just let them free - they keep them contained in such a way as to remove them from the fight, and they very much do not extend trust to them - there is a reason traitors are rarely remembered fondly on either side of the conflict. So that's another way this particular metaphor winds up not actually working.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:36 PM on August 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
Consider the viewpoint of David Greason, who was a Nazi, ceased to be one, wrote I Was A Teenage Fascist his memoir of Australian far-right and extremist politics and his disillusionment, became a regular contributor to the Australia-Israel Review, and a critic of far-rightism:
As I got older, I found the reality of fascist politics is that you were reviled. I was in a workplace where the unionists would not talk to me. Friendship does count for a lot. It's important if we do have a fascist in the workplace to make it clear to them that you will have nothing to do with them; it does undermine them.posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:49 PM on August 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
So there were those things, but also I realised that the politics of it was destructive, that racism benefits no-one. In the book there is a bit about riding in a cab with a Vietnamese taxi driver and him telling me about his life and me just on a very humanistic level thinking it's terrible to think we can treat people like that.
We all have to live our lives, I don't think anyone here is suggesting they know what is appropriate for you.
But the multiple suggestions that the response of mercy, of forgiveness, or simply a willingness to accept that people can change.. that this is somehow proof of white privilege or similar. Everything I know about the end of apartheid in South Africa suggests that truth and reconciliation efforts was a process conceived by those who had been oppressed. Imagine the bloodbath S. Africa could have become, not to say any idea can be executed perfectly but just imagine the possible alternatives.
It is precisely the idea that people can change (for the better) that seems to lie at the heart of the healthier attitudes and beliefs about how to live. Why would we forsake that, to deal with these shittiest of people? Seems like we are granting them far too much. Ultimately this has nothing to do with them, or whether they have the capacity to change. It's about a future you hope for, the future for the kids who might have a chance to decide.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:12 AM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
But the multiple suggestions that the response of mercy, of forgiveness, or simply a willingness to accept that people can change.. that this is somehow proof of white privilege or similar. Everything I know about the end of apartheid in South Africa suggests that truth and reconciliation efforts was a process conceived by those who had been oppressed. Imagine the bloodbath S. Africa could have become, not to say any idea can be executed perfectly but just imagine the possible alternatives.
It is precisely the idea that people can change (for the better) that seems to lie at the heart of the healthier attitudes and beliefs about how to live. Why would we forsake that, to deal with these shittiest of people? Seems like we are granting them far too much. Ultimately this has nothing to do with them, or whether they have the capacity to change. It's about a future you hope for, the future for the kids who might have a chance to decide.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:12 AM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
And that's a goal: we want to encourage defection from the causes of racism and fascism
A person who comes over to your side and says "I'm not with them anymore, but I still consider the organization's ideology and goals valid enough that providing information to authorities to subvert their organization and its goals a step too far" is no defector. It's a dude who wants to sit out of the rain.
posted by tclark at 7:14 AM on August 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
A person who comes over to your side and says "I'm not with them anymore, but I still consider the organization's ideology and goals valid enough that providing information to authorities to subvert their organization and its goals a step too far" is no defector. It's a dude who wants to sit out of the rain.
posted by tclark at 7:14 AM on August 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
By appealing to a supposed political center with so-called countering violent extremism (CVE) programming, LUL has denounced antifascist activists and even collaborated with right-wing writer and livestreamer Andy Ngo
[...] Now, instead of citing neonazi leaders, he pulls from obscure Soviet or Chinese Communist Party policies to justify his far-right ideas
this was the scariest thing about watching the growing Bernie bro/dirtbag left movement explode and gain a lot of actual political capital instead of pre-existing left movements like BLM - that in a white supremacist society, there would always be an instinct by the general population that left politics would only become popular if it focused exclusively on class and ignored issues of misogyny, white supremacy, ableism, etc, because that was really the only kind of oppression that the majority white, cishet, able-bodied population would identify with
this guy is the specter of that - explicitly wanting to eliminate the always tacked on afterthoughts of race, ability, gender, etc from 'lefty' ideology, essentially white supremacy for the left which, if my experience in organizing circles is indicative of, already exists in force in places like the DSA where performances of race consciousness are made when the permanent staff and senior members (the ones who have the most social capital) are still pretty much all white even while the steering committee has slowly become more racially diverse
ie instead of covertly having a white supremacist left political formation, it's time to have an overtly white supremacist left political formation - a split-off that has always seemed altogether too possible, too real
articles like these help expose this shit for what it is - here's to hoping that the message here is heard, wider and further than it has been
posted by paimapi at 7:21 AM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
[...] Now, instead of citing neonazi leaders, he pulls from obscure Soviet or Chinese Communist Party policies to justify his far-right ideas
this was the scariest thing about watching the growing Bernie bro/dirtbag left movement explode and gain a lot of actual political capital instead of pre-existing left movements like BLM - that in a white supremacist society, there would always be an instinct by the general population that left politics would only become popular if it focused exclusively on class and ignored issues of misogyny, white supremacy, ableism, etc, because that was really the only kind of oppression that the majority white, cishet, able-bodied population would identify with
this guy is the specter of that - explicitly wanting to eliminate the always tacked on afterthoughts of race, ability, gender, etc from 'lefty' ideology, essentially white supremacy for the left which, if my experience in organizing circles is indicative of, already exists in force in places like the DSA where performances of race consciousness are made when the permanent staff and senior members (the ones who have the most social capital) are still pretty much all white even while the steering committee has slowly become more racially diverse
ie instead of covertly having a white supremacist left political formation, it's time to have an overtly white supremacist left political formation - a split-off that has always seemed altogether too possible, too real
articles like these help expose this shit for what it is - here's to hoping that the message here is heard, wider and further than it has been
posted by paimapi at 7:21 AM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's complicated, which sounds typical of humans.
There are people like Picicolini and Black who have been doing work in opposing white nationalism.
There are people like Schoep who don't seem to have made any significant changes in their views.
I bet there are people who just leave quietly and have non-political lives.
How much they should be trusted or with what are important questions.
I'd say the first bunch should be trusted. I'm not sure if any of them are seeking public office, but that would be a judgement call. Same if anyone of them want to be police.
The second bunch shouldn't be trusted.
The third bunch if they actually exist would be a judgement call. I just think they exist because the big name ex-Nazis seem to be very energetic, talented people. They were in charge of things. They innovated. Most people aren't like that, but there must be sort of average Nazis and ex-Nazis.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:29 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
There are people like Picicolini and Black who have been doing work in opposing white nationalism.
There are people like Schoep who don't seem to have made any significant changes in their views.
I bet there are people who just leave quietly and have non-political lives.
How much they should be trusted or with what are important questions.
I'd say the first bunch should be trusted. I'm not sure if any of them are seeking public office, but that would be a judgement call. Same if anyone of them want to be police.
The second bunch shouldn't be trusted.
The third bunch if they actually exist would be a judgement call. I just think they exist because the big name ex-Nazis seem to be very energetic, talented people. They were in charge of things. They innovated. Most people aren't like that, but there must be sort of average Nazis and ex-Nazis.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:29 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't even know who Hannah Arendt is. Never heard of her.
Hannah Arendt:
Hannah Arendt:
Hannah Arendt (14 October 1906 – 4 December 1975) was a political philosopher, author, and Holocaust survivor. She is widely considered to be one of the most influential political theorists of the 20th century.posted by Lexica at 7:52 AM on August 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
Most people aren't like that, but there must be sort of average Nazis and ex-Nazis.
One example I can think of that feels a bit closer is former members and associates of racist prison gangs. There’s a whole range of ideological commitment there, but that’s a context in which I definitely believe some people when they say that their actions and associations were a product of the environment.
we live in a culture that has a very twisted, unhealthy view of rehabilitation
There are plenty of cases in which this could be asserted in exactly the opposite way that you’re asserting it. These guys are just mostly not a good example of that.
posted by atoxyl at 8:25 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
One example I can think of that feels a bit closer is former members and associates of racist prison gangs. There’s a whole range of ideological commitment there, but that’s a context in which I definitely believe some people when they say that their actions and associations were a product of the environment.
we live in a culture that has a very twisted, unhealthy view of rehabilitation
There are plenty of cases in which this could be asserted in exactly the opposite way that you’re asserting it. These guys are just mostly not a good example of that.
posted by atoxyl at 8:25 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Can people change? Of course. I've changed during my life. I'm guessing most of the people in this thread can look back at some moment in their life that they're not proud of, something they'd do very differently today.
But guys like Schoep, well, I'm reminded of Hans Landa in Inglourious Basterds. And like Aldo Raine, I can't abide the idea of them being able to just take off that uniform and get on with their lives.
posted by adamrice at 9:33 AM on August 25, 2022
But guys like Schoep, well, I'm reminded of Hans Landa in Inglourious Basterds. And like Aldo Raine, I can't abide the idea of them being able to just take off that uniform and get on with their lives.
posted by adamrice at 9:33 AM on August 25, 2022
Regarding Arendt, I meant that she spent a lot of time and thought on this topic and is excellent reading for anyone struggling with these questions.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:55 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by aspersioncast at 9:55 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
In a word, in my experience, no.
posted by aiq at 10:03 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by aiq at 10:03 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
It is precisely the idea that people can change (for the better) that seems to lie at the heart of the healthier attitudes and beliefs about how to live. Why would we forsake that, to deal with these shittiest of people? Seems like we are granting them far too much. Ultimately this has nothing to do with them, or whether they have the capacity to change. It's about a future you hope for, the future for the kids who might have a chance to decide.
Nobody is forsaking that, so you can put the strawman down. What people are pointing out is that some breaches of trust are so deep, so fundamental, that they cannot be forgotten. If someone has argued openly and earnestly for the inferiority of others, why should they ever trust what they say? And thus part of that change for the better is the acceptance that their past will always be part of how they are viewed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:16 AM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Nobody is forsaking that, so you can put the strawman down. What people are pointing out is that some breaches of trust are so deep, so fundamental, that they cannot be forgotten. If someone has argued openly and earnestly for the inferiority of others, why should they ever trust what they say? And thus part of that change for the better is the acceptance that their past will always be part of how they are viewed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:16 AM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
NoxAeternum, I would be more inclined to trust children of Nazis who say they've become ex-Nazis. It's not as though they really chose Nazism as much as those who came to it as teenagers or later.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:24 AM on August 25, 2022
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:24 AM on August 25, 2022
I don't even know who Hannah Arendt is. Never heard of her.
how does someone born five years after WWII not know who Arendt is? she covered the Eichmann trial in 1963? I'm an Asian immigrant born in the late 80s and even I know who she is
I guess it makes sense that you'd want to see white supremacists as just normal people doing normal things if you've never heard of the concept of the banality of evil
posted by paimapi at 11:08 AM on August 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
how does someone born five years after WWII not know who Arendt is? she covered the Eichmann trial in 1963? I'm an Asian immigrant born in the late 80s and even I know who she is
I guess it makes sense that you'd want to see white supremacists as just normal people doing normal things if you've never heard of the concept of the banality of evil
posted by paimapi at 11:08 AM on August 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
I feel like people are picking the elements of the christian concept of forgiveness and redemption like they are at a buffet and skipping right past the vegetables of contrition, confession, penance. Penance in particular. You've done the crime you need to do the time before redemption and forgiveness is even on the table. Christian forgiveness does not entail skipping past punishment.
posted by srboisvert at 1:09 PM on August 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 1:09 PM on August 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I just want to say that this thread is a shining example of what I love about Metafilter. So many of you have given words and structure to ideas that really resonate with me. Thank you.
posted by ZakDaddy at 1:27 PM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by ZakDaddy at 1:27 PM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I would say that the phrasing of the main question (i.e.: "Can You Ever Trust a Former White Nationalist?") may unintentionally obscure one of the key aspects of this problem. In phrasing the question like this, it seems to set up a situation where you have a former white supremacist in front of you and are now being asked if we should trust them. However, it would seem to me that the key problem with this set up is: how do we know this person in front of us is a former white supremacist? If we assume that part away and just declare that they are in fact a former white supremacist, it kind of moves the question along to a later stage where this person has somehow already attained or been bestowed the title of "former white supremacist" and now we have to figure out what to do with them. But, I feel like this framing skips the most crucial part which is whether or not this person in question can actually be considered a former white supremacist -- especially when: a) in a lot of situations, there are clear monetary (and perhaps legal?) incentives to disavow white supremacist ideology but few mechanisms to determine the authenticity of such disavowals, and b) white supremacists have a known tactic of trying to hide their racist beliefs in order to more easily blend in and influence the larger society (on 4chan they've called this "hiding your power level").
Of course, I could just be reading too much into the syntax of the question and overthinking that plate of beans. The question is probably phrased this way because "Can You Ever Trust Someone Who Claims To Be A Former White Nationalist?" would be too clunky for a title.
posted by mhum at 4:52 PM on August 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
Of course, I could just be reading too much into the syntax of the question and overthinking that plate of beans. The question is probably phrased this way because "Can You Ever Trust Someone Who Claims To Be A Former White Nationalist?" would be too clunky for a title.
posted by mhum at 4:52 PM on August 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
“Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.
“That word is Nazi. Nobody cares about their motives anymore.”
-A.R. Moxon
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:52 PM on August 25, 2022 [23 favorites]
“That word is Nazi. Nobody cares about their motives anymore.”
-A.R. Moxon
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:52 PM on August 25, 2022 [23 favorites]
> mhum: "I feel like this framing skips the most crucial part which is whether or not this person in question can actually be considered a former white supremacist"
Oh I should mention that the article itself is actually quite good on this front in how it interrogates Schoep's and Heimbach's alleged reformations (which seem to be barely anything at all) as well as this LUL organization which I hadn't heard of before.
posted by mhum at 5:11 PM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh I should mention that the article itself is actually quite good on this front in how it interrogates Schoep's and Heimbach's alleged reformations (which seem to be barely anything at all) as well as this LUL organization which I hadn't heard of before.
posted by mhum at 5:11 PM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I saw an interview once of one that had left his movement. He happened to have a disabled son and related that another member told him that "you know, when we take over your son will need to be put down". And that started him thinking and eventually he left.
There certainly will be a few that have a personal experience that "gets them thinking".
But certainly "never turn your back" is the right policy and remembering the guy's tone I doubt he would disagree.
posted by sammyo at 7:23 PM on August 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
There certainly will be a few that have a personal experience that "gets them thinking".
But certainly "never turn your back" is the right policy and remembering the guy's tone I doubt he would disagree.
posted by sammyo at 7:23 PM on August 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't even know who Hannah Arendt is. Never heard of her.
It would have taken less time to Google ‘Hannah Arendt’ that it would to type and post this comment.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:13 PM on August 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
It would have taken less time to Google ‘Hannah Arendt’ that it would to type and post this comment.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:13 PM on August 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
It would be very interesting to know how Hannah Arendt herself would have responded to this question.
posted by jamjam at 10:06 PM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
When she was a 19-year-old university student, Arendt fell in love with her 36-year-old married professor, Martin Heidegger (September 26, 1889–May 26, 1976). A philosopher as influential as he is controversial, Heidegger made monumental contributions phenomenology and existentialism; he also joined the Nazi party and took an academic position under Nazi favors. Although he resigned a year later, stopped attending Nazi party meetings, and later told a student that he considered taking the position “the greatest stupidity of his life,” he never publicly repented. That he should fall in love with a Jew — Arendt saw the power and privilege of being an outsider as central to her identity — exposes the complexity and contradiction of which the human spirit is woven, its threads nowhere more ragged than in love.Arendt broke off the affair after a year because it was interfering with her studies and her career, but it’s clear from their letters that they were still in love for years afterwards — the linked site quotes a very affecting letter she wrote Heidegger on the day of her wedding to another man, for example — and they remained friends and correspondents right up until her death.
Heidegger considered their romance “the most exciting, focused, and eventful” period of his life, and that creative vitality fertilized Being and Time — his most famous and influential work, which introduced the notion of “being-in-the-world” as our primary human mode of existence, supplanting notions of subject, object, world, and consciousness. [my emphasis]
posted by jamjam at 10:06 PM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Can You Ever Trust a Former White Nationalist?
While the article itself is pretty good in content, I would argue that this headline (probably not written by the author) is the question of a white person, written for a certain white audience to ponder, and a lot of the ensuing discussion purporting to take the question seriously is largely not one a non-white audience would entertain in earnest. The response instead would probably be similar to a reactive sentiment at the prospect of walking voluntarily into some fuckshit that Jordan Peele pointed to recently: nope.
My experience is that most PoC in America are used to doing some pretty serious mental math and behind-the-scenes calculating the instant we meet a new white person, to figure out if we're going to be OK or not as a basic life survival skill. And that's an ongoing process that's readily subject to reevaluation as new information comes to light over time. If you don't pass these tests for whatever reason, you wouldn't necessarily know it. You might even keep seeing us or having conversations with us. But you've been shadowbanned nonetheless. Often for things much less overt than what is being discussed here.
In other words, you don't earn our trust as someone we can relax around nearly as easily as the question-asker would seem to think. And that self-identified "former white supremacist" fails the test right out of the gate, making the question sort of absurd on its face. The question in the context of the article really makes more sense as "should an anti-racist white person ever see fit to associate with, collaborate with, or give platform to a former white nationalist who recanted mere months ago?" The answer is still nope, but white people can discuss it amongst themselves and work out the issues if they like, which are not actually all that complex.
posted by naju at 3:53 AM on August 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
While the article itself is pretty good in content, I would argue that this headline (probably not written by the author) is the question of a white person, written for a certain white audience to ponder, and a lot of the ensuing discussion purporting to take the question seriously is largely not one a non-white audience would entertain in earnest. The response instead would probably be similar to a reactive sentiment at the prospect of walking voluntarily into some fuckshit that Jordan Peele pointed to recently: nope.
My experience is that most PoC in America are used to doing some pretty serious mental math and behind-the-scenes calculating the instant we meet a new white person, to figure out if we're going to be OK or not as a basic life survival skill. And that's an ongoing process that's readily subject to reevaluation as new information comes to light over time. If you don't pass these tests for whatever reason, you wouldn't necessarily know it. You might even keep seeing us or having conversations with us. But you've been shadowbanned nonetheless. Often for things much less overt than what is being discussed here.
In other words, you don't earn our trust as someone we can relax around nearly as easily as the question-asker would seem to think. And that self-identified "former white supremacist" fails the test right out of the gate, making the question sort of absurd on its face. The question in the context of the article really makes more sense as "should an anti-racist white person ever see fit to associate with, collaborate with, or give platform to a former white nationalist who recanted mere months ago?" The answer is still nope, but white people can discuss it amongst themselves and work out the issues if they like, which are not actually all that complex.
posted by naju at 3:53 AM on August 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
Actions speak louder than words. I wouldn’t believe someone was no longer a white nationalist unless I saw them make an equal effort to demonstrate that. For someone with a public face like McHugh I’d need her to make her anti-white-nationalism audience at least as big as her pro-white-nationalism audience before I believed her.
posted by bendy at 10:26 PM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bendy at 10:26 PM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Remember Prussian Blue, the racist rock band fronted by twin 16 year olds?
They claim to have recanted their Neo-Nazi past yet still “question certain aspects of the Holocaust”.
posted by aiq at 10:25 AM on August 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
They claim to have recanted their Neo-Nazi past yet still “question certain aspects of the Holocaust”.
posted by aiq at 10:25 AM on August 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
If they keep workshopping it, I'm sure they'll find just the right level of expression of their beliefs that will optimize for both neonazi and mainstream marketability.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:37 AM on August 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 11:37 AM on August 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
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posted by Jon_Evil at 11:11 AM on August 24, 2022 [55 favorites]