"Only $2,000 over. In normal times, that would be a rip-off."
August 31, 2022 4:49 AM Subscribe
A big part of why I still have a 2009 car is that I never want to have to deal with car dealers again. Also Honda stopped selling the Fit so I don't know what I'd buy.
posted by octothorpe at 5:51 AM on August 31, 2022 [36 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 5:51 AM on August 31, 2022 [36 favorites]
I have never bought a new car, and I doubt I ever will. I had a single experience at a used dealership, and I'll never go back.
posted by rocketman at 5:59 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by rocketman at 5:59 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
Accepting that all dealerships are shit, my one prime evaluation point as to just how shit they are is the size of the american flag they’re flying. The more gigantic the flag, the less likely I will be to shop there. I swear some of these dealerships have football-field-sized flags flying 24/7.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:17 AM on August 31, 2022 [35 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 6:17 AM on August 31, 2022 [35 favorites]
Ugh car dealerships.
Mrs Sauce and I bought a sweet new Mazda 3 in 2008 when Mazda was massively over-inventoried and we got below-MSRP pricing from the dealership.
The guy who finalized the sale was desperate to sell us all the dealer add-ons. I have a strong "no" reflex on those things so it was a slog. We were there well after closing, like around 1030 at night.
Finally he suggested I pre-sign the invoices & paperwork before he put them through the giant cool impact printer. Said it would be faster, so he could get home to his kids sooner. I immediately figured scam but wanted to see how bold he would get about it. And yeah, it went like I thought, the pre signed invoice contained a bunch of buy-ups when it came out of the printer. I spied the charges but he grabbed the paper away from my view on the desk and tore it up.
So I decided to read every piece of paperwork in the large bundle we had generated before I'd sign anything further. Spent an extra 90 minutes there, and the dealer complained endlessly. I would've walked away under any other circumstances but we got a sweet deal on a good car that I did not want to walk away from.
posted by Sauce Trough at 6:21 AM on August 31, 2022 [35 favorites]
Mrs Sauce and I bought a sweet new Mazda 3 in 2008 when Mazda was massively over-inventoried and we got below-MSRP pricing from the dealership.
The guy who finalized the sale was desperate to sell us all the dealer add-ons. I have a strong "no" reflex on those things so it was a slog. We were there well after closing, like around 1030 at night.
Finally he suggested I pre-sign the invoices & paperwork before he put them through the giant cool impact printer. Said it would be faster, so he could get home to his kids sooner. I immediately figured scam but wanted to see how bold he would get about it. And yeah, it went like I thought, the pre signed invoice contained a bunch of buy-ups when it came out of the printer. I spied the charges but he grabbed the paper away from my view on the desk and tore it up.
So I decided to read every piece of paperwork in the large bundle we had generated before I'd sign anything further. Spent an extra 90 minutes there, and the dealer complained endlessly. I would've walked away under any other circumstances but we got a sweet deal on a good car that I did not want to walk away from.
posted by Sauce Trough at 6:21 AM on August 31, 2022 [35 favorites]
Also Honda stopped selling the Fit so I don't know what I'd buy.
My Fit basically decayed when I didn't drive it for a year, and rather than fix all the broken bits (primarily the air conditioning, which honestly didn't even work particularly well when it wasn't broken), I limped it to the dealership and bought a hybrid Accord last April. The market wasn't yet bonkers, and I paid quite a bit under MSRP for it and still got okay money on the trade, and I was as happy as I could ever be with a transaction at a car dealership (which is to say: only moderately unhappy).
That said: it is insane to me that we still put up with the car dealership mystery-pricing bullshit. Car ownership is mandatory in most of the US, and yet we make every step of buying, owning, and servicing a car as scam-prone as possible. A bit like healthcare, actually.
Like, I don't think I'll ever buy a Tesla (for QC and UX reasons, largely), but the direct-to-consumer model is such a no-brainer. I don't mind going to the dealership for service. I actually like the service center at my dealer, which is incredible to say. But nobody likes buying a car at a dealership (except the kinds of assholes who love to haggle, who should all be fired off into the sun anyway).
posted by uncleozzy at 6:27 AM on August 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
My Fit basically decayed when I didn't drive it for a year, and rather than fix all the broken bits (primarily the air conditioning, which honestly didn't even work particularly well when it wasn't broken), I limped it to the dealership and bought a hybrid Accord last April. The market wasn't yet bonkers, and I paid quite a bit under MSRP for it and still got okay money on the trade, and I was as happy as I could ever be with a transaction at a car dealership (which is to say: only moderately unhappy).
That said: it is insane to me that we still put up with the car dealership mystery-pricing bullshit. Car ownership is mandatory in most of the US, and yet we make every step of buying, owning, and servicing a car as scam-prone as possible. A bit like healthcare, actually.
Like, I don't think I'll ever buy a Tesla (for QC and UX reasons, largely), but the direct-to-consumer model is such a no-brainer. I don't mind going to the dealership for service. I actually like the service center at my dealer, which is incredible to say. But nobody likes buying a car at a dealership (except the kinds of assholes who love to haggle, who should all be fired off into the sun anyway).
posted by uncleozzy at 6:27 AM on August 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
I will never use anything but "stealership" to refer to a place to buy new cars ever again.
posted by tommasz at 6:28 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 6:28 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
The last time we bought a new car, the salesdroid was really trying to strongarm us into add-ons and financing through them, etc. Even doing multiple instances of “Let me talk to my manager”. I actually got up, said my ‘thank you’ and walked out the door. The droid came running after us, agreeing to all our demands. The bastards still had the gall to try and slip paperwork into the stack that would have had us financing through them (we already had financing arranged through our credit union). They’re all slime.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:31 AM on August 31, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 6:31 AM on August 31, 2022 [15 favorites]
But nobody likes buying a car at a dealership (except the kinds of assholes who love to haggle, who should all be fired off into the sun anyway).
The only reason for dealerships to exist is so you can test-drive a model. Cars are pretty much the only major consumer item that you kind of need to try-on first.
And, with the (stupid) advent of flatscreen controls, testing a car has become even more important, especially given the wide variety of UX designs the different carmakers employ, even between their own models.
But, that doesn’t mean a dealership needs to occupy a city block and stock hundreds of cars. Have one example of each model currently on offer, for viewing, test driving, etc. Then, just order the car you want. And no one works on commission. Straight salary.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:41 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
The only reason for dealerships to exist is so you can test-drive a model. Cars are pretty much the only major consumer item that you kind of need to try-on first.
And, with the (stupid) advent of flatscreen controls, testing a car has become even more important, especially given the wide variety of UX designs the different carmakers employ, even between their own models.
But, that doesn’t mean a dealership needs to occupy a city block and stock hundreds of cars. Have one example of each model currently on offer, for viewing, test driving, etc. Then, just order the car you want. And no one works on commission. Straight salary.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:41 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
A new subaru was a little easier than a used. We were able to see the delivery price from the factory. Because there are multiple dealerships in the area, we were able to play them off one another. They are literally just taking delivery of the car for a few days, doing no work, and benefit from the likely service changes down the line.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:43 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:43 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is why I just bought an ex-rental (Nissan Versa Note) the last time around: the price was fixed so there was no haggling, there were no possible upgrades for me to buy, and when I pointed out that I would be paying cash, they shrugged and said, "fine."
posted by thomas j wise at 6:48 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by thomas j wise at 6:48 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
The only reason for dealerships to exist is so you can test-drive a model. Cars are pretty much the only major consumer item that you kind of need to try-on first.
I'm built weird, 6'2" but also very long waisted with an extra lumbar vertebrae, and I just don't fit into some cars or if I do, I can't actually see out of the windshield. I need to be able to get in the car to see if I can actually drive thing.
posted by octothorpe at 6:49 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm built weird, 6'2" but also very long waisted with an extra lumbar vertebrae, and I just don't fit into some cars or if I do, I can't actually see out of the windshield. I need to be able to get in the car to see if I can actually drive thing.
posted by octothorpe at 6:49 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
Say what you will about Tesla (dare I admit to owning a Tesla on Metafilter?), but the purchasing experience was so mind-blowingly good that it was almost the sole basis for us purchasing another one when our other car needed replacing. I will never purchase a car through a dealership again.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:49 AM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:49 AM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
I got chased out the door once. I had been looking at a used Honda Fit at a non-Honda dealership (it was VW I think?). The car was decent and only a few years old, but it had higher mileage (more than 200K!) than I wanted, had animal scratches on the one of the back doors, was several grand higher than what I was willing to pay, and was the wrong color. It just wasn't the car for me, so I walked. The biggest, douchiest guy on the sales floor came after me shouting about how much he'd lower the price. He even blocked me from leaving and continued to follow me out into the parking lot shouting about how I was walking away from "a steal".
He just didn't understand that price wasn't the only consideration. I didn't want to pay <$5K for a junker that I'd likely have to replace in five years, probably smells like dogs when wet, and was a color I didn't like. I wanted to pay $8-9K for a car I could rely on for the next ten years or more.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
He just didn't understand that price wasn't the only consideration. I didn't want to pay <$5K for a junker that I'd likely have to replace in five years, probably smells like dogs when wet, and was a color I didn't like. I wanted to pay $8-9K for a car I could rely on for the next ten years or more.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
the first time I did mushrooms and my friend started tripping and I was worried they'd have no effect on me so we left the house party and took a stroll down the street on a busy Friday night and the mushrooms popped for me as we approached the (South Park) dealership, and the light hitting all the tinsel-y stuff and flags fluttering and the massive neon sign was just stupendously fun. that's all I got.
posted by elkevelvet at 6:53 AM on August 31, 2022 [36 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 6:53 AM on August 31, 2022 [36 favorites]
Accepting that all dealerships are shit, my one prime evaluation point as to just how shit they are is the size of the american flag they’re flying. The more gigantic the flag, the less likely I will be to shop there. I swear some of these dealerships have football-field-sized flags flying 24/7.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:17 AM on August 31
There's one by me that will on occasion replace all of its lamppost American flags (at least 30 of them) with Thin Blue Line flags. All of his franchises are on my shit list.
posted by gc at 6:54 AM on August 31, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 8:17 AM on August 31
There's one by me that will on occasion replace all of its lamppost American flags (at least 30 of them) with Thin Blue Line flags. All of his franchises are on my shit list.
posted by gc at 6:54 AM on August 31, 2022 [21 favorites]
I also bought a Tesla for this reason despite *gestures wildly at Elon Musk*
A few years back I took my Jeep to a dealer to get their trade-in estimate. They disappeared with my keys for over 2 hours. I ended up having to yell at a manager to get the keys back, then to find my car, then to move the truck blocking my car so I could finally leave.
posted by Eddie Mars at 6:58 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
A few years back I took my Jeep to a dealer to get their trade-in estimate. They disappeared with my keys for over 2 hours. I ended up having to yell at a manager to get the keys back, then to find my car, then to move the truck blocking my car so I could finally leave.
posted by Eddie Mars at 6:58 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think that maybe some people are forgetting how bad car dealerships could be in the Before Times. The first time I went shopping for a car at a dealership, the salesperson walked after us, yelling at us, because we wouldn't sign on the spot and still had a few other places to check out. When I got my current car--the first car that I ever bought new; a Honda Fit, incidentally--after I'd bought it and had taken it home, I got a call from a salesperson at another Honda dealership that I'd visited before the one that I ended up buying from; I barely remember giving her my number. She was very upset that I hadn't bought the one that she'd shown me; the thing is, though, is that the one that she'd shown me (the only one they had on their lot) had one of those flat-panel displays on the dash, and she could not show me how it worked. At all. She just didn't know. I'm not sure that I would have bought it anyway, since it was more expensive, but I sure wasn't going to buy it if the person who is trying to convince me to go into debt for years for it can't even turn the radio on.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:29 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:29 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
For those who haven’t bought a used car in the US in a while, please know that price transparency is actually quite good online, never mind the shenanigans in the actual dealership. Sites like kbb.com can help you pinpoint the current market value of a given car within a few hundred bucks. I like to use carproblemzoo.com to get a sense for how many issues are coming up with a given car model, divided by the total production of that car’s model year to get a rough estimate or issues per X thousand produced. (Never, ever, ever buy the first year of a new design!) Most online listing sites include the actual VIN; a Carfax one year membership is well worth the hundred bucks while you are shopping. As with everything these days, you need to know your value (on your desired car) walking in the door, and stick with it.
I won’t buy a new car again, at least not one that runs on dinosaur juice. The depreciation is just silly. Used cars coming off lease have been a sweet spot for us in recent years. (We are a family of five with young adult kids, so I have been more active in the market than at most other times in my life.)
I’m hoping to keep my 10 year old minivan going until something worthy of replacing it comes to the EV market.
posted by sockshaveholes at 7:29 AM on August 31, 2022 [21 favorites]
I won’t buy a new car again, at least not one that runs on dinosaur juice. The depreciation is just silly. Used cars coming off lease have been a sweet spot for us in recent years. (We are a family of five with young adult kids, so I have been more active in the market than at most other times in my life.)
I’m hoping to keep my 10 year old minivan going until something worthy of replacing it comes to the EV market.
posted by sockshaveholes at 7:29 AM on August 31, 2022 [21 favorites]
But, that doesn’t mean a dealership needs to occupy a city block and stock hundreds of cars.
Basically, customers seem to like the following:
1. Able to touch the exact thing they are going to buy
2. See many variants of it all in one place to compare and figure out which one they like
3. Retailer must have enough stock on hand so they can buy it immediately rather than waiting 3 months (average lead time for a new order)
4. Have a live, human being on site who will take care of any problems that arise with their product, rather than calling a help-line and speaking to an operator outsourced to another country.
Once you have all that, uhm, you basically have a typical supermarket. Or car dealership.
From the manufacturer's side, the biggest value-add the dealerships (or supermarkets) provide is their proximity to the customer - in terms of knowledge of local buying habits. The factory in another state or even another country has no idea what sorts of cars people in this random town of 10,000 people like to buy - remember, the past is not a reliable indicator of the future. It's a critical piece of information given that you have to lock in the build schedules for those cars months in advance of actually selling them. How open to change are the locals - are they more likely to embrace the new high tech low displacement engines we're introducing, or stick with the older generation large displacement ones they've used all their lives? No replacement for displacement, right? How tech savvy are they - what's the uptake going to be like on internet connectivity / satnav / automatic parking? How is the local economy doing, are the local businesses doing well or looking shaky - consumer confidence will determine if buyers prefer high spec vehicles with panoramic glass roofs and quality leather interiors, or one of the cheaper trims. All these future predictions are hyper local, and this knowledge is really only available to people who live in the community and built a decades long business there. (maybe an AI can do it in the future, I think Elon Musk might know something about this...)
Tesla sort of gets away with it because the wealthy early adopters are willing to wait months for the prestige of owning their latest products, and they have ample means of procuring transport in the meantime, and the resources to navigate the system if their car breaks down. Now that they've proven to their customers (and the industry more generally) that hey, this is a genuinely good experience for the customer, I think more people are going to be on board with this sales model, especially with the constant comments we get about how awful dealerships are and how amazing Tesla's sales experience is - it brings to mind every thread we have about taxis versus Uber. And of course, all the other automakers are over the moon at the idea of finally getting rid of the middleman.
posted by xdvesper at 7:33 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
Basically, customers seem to like the following:
1. Able to touch the exact thing they are going to buy
2. See many variants of it all in one place to compare and figure out which one they like
3. Retailer must have enough stock on hand so they can buy it immediately rather than waiting 3 months (average lead time for a new order)
4. Have a live, human being on site who will take care of any problems that arise with their product, rather than calling a help-line and speaking to an operator outsourced to another country.
Once you have all that, uhm, you basically have a typical supermarket. Or car dealership.
From the manufacturer's side, the biggest value-add the dealerships (or supermarkets) provide is their proximity to the customer - in terms of knowledge of local buying habits. The factory in another state or even another country has no idea what sorts of cars people in this random town of 10,000 people like to buy - remember, the past is not a reliable indicator of the future. It's a critical piece of information given that you have to lock in the build schedules for those cars months in advance of actually selling them. How open to change are the locals - are they more likely to embrace the new high tech low displacement engines we're introducing, or stick with the older generation large displacement ones they've used all their lives? No replacement for displacement, right? How tech savvy are they - what's the uptake going to be like on internet connectivity / satnav / automatic parking? How is the local economy doing, are the local businesses doing well or looking shaky - consumer confidence will determine if buyers prefer high spec vehicles with panoramic glass roofs and quality leather interiors, or one of the cheaper trims. All these future predictions are hyper local, and this knowledge is really only available to people who live in the community and built a decades long business there. (maybe an AI can do it in the future, I think Elon Musk might know something about this...)
Tesla sort of gets away with it because the wealthy early adopters are willing to wait months for the prestige of owning their latest products, and they have ample means of procuring transport in the meantime, and the resources to navigate the system if their car breaks down. Now that they've proven to their customers (and the industry more generally) that hey, this is a genuinely good experience for the customer, I think more people are going to be on board with this sales model, especially with the constant comments we get about how awful dealerships are and how amazing Tesla's sales experience is - it brings to mind every thread we have about taxis versus Uber. And of course, all the other automakers are over the moon at the idea of finally getting rid of the middleman.
posted by xdvesper at 7:33 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
I never realized how weird it is that two closely related common indicators of economic status (personal and societal) are so utterly opposite in pricing: Car pricing is famously opaque and inconsistent, and yet you see how much gasoline is on big signs that usually hold the same number if there are two stations at the same intersection.
posted by Etrigan at 7:42 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:42 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Visit a dealership to test drive cars, but never negotiate a price there. Once you've selected a model and know the trim level you want and colors you'll accept, run a reverse auction on email among multiple dealerships. When you have a first round of offers, call the best five bidders (On the phone! Like it's 1985!) and ask if they'll beat the best bid you received. Structuring your "shopping" that way puts all the incentives where they belong. As buyers, we have no idea where each dealership is in their progress toward manufacturer promotions...letting lots of dealers bid for your business smokes that out. You get a good price (assuming you're buying a readily-available model) and you only set foot in a dealership again to sign the papers and pick up the vehicle.
posted by The Artful Codger at 7:42 AM on August 31, 2022 [48 favorites]
posted by The Artful Codger at 7:42 AM on August 31, 2022 [48 favorites]
One reason dealers suck is that state laws protect them.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:42 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:42 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
JOBS
I see this flag flown everywhere, but to my mind if a job involves shipping other jobs overseas or is otherwise involved in nonproductive activities like gambling or speculating or outright crime, then they should not count because they are overall reducers of public wealth.
posted by hypnogogue at 7:45 AM on August 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
I see this flag flown everywhere, but to my mind if a job involves shipping other jobs overseas or is otherwise involved in nonproductive activities like gambling or speculating or outright crime, then they should not count because they are overall reducers of public wealth.
posted by hypnogogue at 7:45 AM on August 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
In the UK at the moment there is a vigorous advertising contest going on between organisations who sell (and buy) cars online. You don’t get a test drive, but you get a trial period. It seemed mad to me at first, but on reflection I think it is going to kill traditional car dealers.
posted by Phanx at 7:51 AM on August 31, 2022
posted by Phanx at 7:51 AM on August 31, 2022
On The Artful Codger's method see also the Nicole Cliffe guide to buying a car without talking to a human, which is strongly predicated on entering dealerships as little and as late in the game as possible.
posted by heyforfour at 7:52 AM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by heyforfour at 7:52 AM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
The first new car I bought was a Saturn, and among the things that attracted me to it was the no-negotiation model. I walked in, chose the car I wanted, and bought it for the price on the sticker, no add-ons save for a set of rubber floor mats *I* requested, as I'd read online that they were a good idea.
The last new car I bought was a Toyota Prius, and the dealership I visited made it exactly the same experience, and I've been satisfied enough to keep bringing it back to them for the scheduled maintenance (beyond which, I might add, the car hasn't given me a lick of trouble).
posted by Gelatin at 7:56 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
The last new car I bought was a Toyota Prius, and the dealership I visited made it exactly the same experience, and I've been satisfied enough to keep bringing it back to them for the scheduled maintenance (beyond which, I might add, the car hasn't given me a lick of trouble).
posted by Gelatin at 7:56 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
I generally like Nicolle Cliffe, but I have trouble getting past her guide first paragraph's complete lack of recognition that there are people out there who aren't shaped like Nicole Cliffe.
I am fat. This summer on a multi-car family road trip, I drove two seemingly very similar SUVs, for similar amounts of time, over the same highways. One of those two vehicles left my right hip and knee in throbbing pain so bad I could barely get out of the car when we stopped for gas. The other was fine.
Anyone who is particularly tall, short, fat, or differently abled should absolutely test drive a car before they buy it. Ideally for more than a few minutes.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:00 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
I am fat. This summer on a multi-car family road trip, I drove two seemingly very similar SUVs, for similar amounts of time, over the same highways. One of those two vehicles left my right hip and knee in throbbing pain so bad I could barely get out of the car when we stopped for gas. The other was fine.
Anyone who is particularly tall, short, fat, or differently abled should absolutely test drive a car before they buy it. Ideally for more than a few minutes.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:00 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
She was very upset that I hadn't bought the one that she'd shown me; the thing is, though, is that the one that she'd shown me (the only one they had on their lot) had one of those flat-panel displays on the dash, and she could not show me how it worked. At all. She just didn't know. I'm not sure that I would have bought it anyway, since it was more expensive, but I sure wasn't going to buy it if the person who is trying to convince me to go into debt for years for it can't even turn the radio on.
A few months ago, we bought a used car (a 2018 Mazda CX-5) and the flat-panel interface is so completely unintuitive that none of us have been able to figure it out. One of these days, while I'm a passenger supervising my 15-year-old with a permit on a long drive, I'll dig out the manual and read through it, and then I'll be the family expert.
We're kind of astonished by how opaque the interface is, given that we all have years of experience with tablets and smart phones, and designers have years of experience making them.
I also learned, when the battery died recently, that because everything is run by computer, you literally cannot jump-start this car (if I'm wrong about it, please tell me how to do it!). Also, because the computer has to be reset after the battery is charged or replaced, it couldn't be done at our usual mechanic, either. We had to have it towed a second time from our usual place to the dealership. (Thank heavens for AAA.)
This relatively minor problem that I could have solved myself (The friend I was with had jumper cables in her car!) ended up being a long, stressful, multi-day slog.
I'm going to need another modest, reliable used car soon. Tell me there's a car out there I can use jumper cables on. Please.
posted by Well I never at 8:04 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
A few months ago, we bought a used car (a 2018 Mazda CX-5) and the flat-panel interface is so completely unintuitive that none of us have been able to figure it out. One of these days, while I'm a passenger supervising my 15-year-old with a permit on a long drive, I'll dig out the manual and read through it, and then I'll be the family expert.
We're kind of astonished by how opaque the interface is, given that we all have years of experience with tablets and smart phones, and designers have years of experience making them.
I also learned, when the battery died recently, that because everything is run by computer, you literally cannot jump-start this car (if I'm wrong about it, please tell me how to do it!). Also, because the computer has to be reset after the battery is charged or replaced, it couldn't be done at our usual mechanic, either. We had to have it towed a second time from our usual place to the dealership. (Thank heavens for AAA.)
This relatively minor problem that I could have solved myself (The friend I was with had jumper cables in her car!) ended up being a long, stressful, multi-day slog.
I'm going to need another modest, reliable used car soon. Tell me there's a car out there I can use jumper cables on. Please.
posted by Well I never at 8:04 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
For all you dealership-haters, a car dealership was my family's main business for two generations. That is, until we finally sold it to a business partner so my grandfather could retire... then about a month later, ON CHRISTMAS EVE, it burned to the ground with many of the employees' biggest "Santa Claus" gifts for their children still hidden away in the service bay, along with customers' cars scheduled for repairs.
In my heart I'll always wonder if that fire was an accident, or if it was "an accident" for insurance purposes. At the time it burned down, it wasn't ours anymore, though.
I get no joy out of the car-buying experience, despite having grown up in a family full of car salesmen. My last car purchase in 2012 was for cash, which peeved the sales staff endlessly.
They still send me direct marketing mail insisting they can lower my monthly payments a decade later. ON THE CAR I PAID CASH OUTRIGHT FOR.
Really dreading having to replace that vehicle when it's time and hoping the stock/microchip shortage reverses well before that happens.
And there's a natural progression line from big-name car dealerships/franchises to running for public office (see: Don Huffines). Of course, they're almost all Republicans. Here's the breakdown of car dealership donations for the 2022 election cycle broken down by Dem/Repub party.
There are also 5 car dealership owners in the current House of Representatives, and that's pretty typical from a historical perspective. It makes sense that they'd want the power to shape legislation at the federal level to benefit themselves and other car dealership owners.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:05 AM on August 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
In my heart I'll always wonder if that fire was an accident, or if it was "an accident" for insurance purposes. At the time it burned down, it wasn't ours anymore, though.
I get no joy out of the car-buying experience, despite having grown up in a family full of car salesmen. My last car purchase in 2012 was for cash, which peeved the sales staff endlessly.
They still send me direct marketing mail insisting they can lower my monthly payments a decade later. ON THE CAR I PAID CASH OUTRIGHT FOR.
Really dreading having to replace that vehicle when it's time and hoping the stock/microchip shortage reverses well before that happens.
And there's a natural progression line from big-name car dealerships/franchises to running for public office (see: Don Huffines). Of course, they're almost all Republicans. Here's the breakdown of car dealership donations for the 2022 election cycle broken down by Dem/Repub party.
There are also 5 car dealership owners in the current House of Representatives, and that's pretty typical from a historical perspective. It makes sense that they'd want the power to shape legislation at the federal level to benefit themselves and other car dealership owners.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:05 AM on August 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
My parents took me to a Saturn dealership decades ago, and I was too young to know what it meant that the prices listed on the stickers were the actual prices and they had a return policy if you just didn't like the car. My parents could not contain their enthusiasm about it. Of course, it was too "radical" for the car industry and Saturn was eventually starved to death.
posted by meowzilla at 8:05 AM on August 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 8:05 AM on August 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
I have a 2011 Nissan Versa, which was not fancy when I bought it, but I am dreading, DREADING when it finally falls apart and needs replacing because everything has gotten so much worse in the intervening years. Everything has a horrible touch screen instead of tactile buttons! The computers and hardware have gotten breakier! The supply chain is fucked! I don't want another solely-gas-powered car if I can avoid it. And buying a car is the worrrrrrrrrst.
That all being said, if you have a Carmax near you, that's a great opportunity to do a low-stakes test drive of a bunch of different makes and models you may be considering. When I bought my Versa, I went to a Carmax and drove four or five compact cars that I was considering (and made sure my spouse could physically get in/drive them, because he's a foot taller than me). That way you're not spending any more time than necessary interacting with actual brand dealerships, if that's the way you go.
posted by bowtiesarecool at 8:10 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
That all being said, if you have a Carmax near you, that's a great opportunity to do a low-stakes test drive of a bunch of different makes and models you may be considering. When I bought my Versa, I went to a Carmax and drove four or five compact cars that I was considering (and made sure my spouse could physically get in/drive them, because he's a foot taller than me). That way you're not spending any more time than necessary interacting with actual brand dealerships, if that's the way you go.
posted by bowtiesarecool at 8:10 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
One of the most conservative members of the US house from Pennsylvania, Mike Kelly, owns a chain of car dealerships and somehow I don't see that as a coincidence.
posted by octothorpe at 8:15 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 8:15 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I'm holding onto my 15 year-old car because there aren't any current models that I both like and can afford, and also it was surprisingly smooth and easy to buy that car and I know I won't have that kind of luck again.
posted by TwoStride at 8:16 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by TwoStride at 8:16 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I once knew a guy that owned a bunch of dealerships. He was exactly as shady as you'd expect. Nice enough guy, but I'd never want to do business with him. I was not surprised in the least when he got sued over an exotic car one of his dealers sold someone and somehow managed to lose.
He wasn't a goddamned Republican despite being in the South, though, so he had that going for him.
posted by wierdo at 8:17 AM on August 31, 2022
He wasn't a goddamned Republican despite being in the South, though, so he had that going for him.
posted by wierdo at 8:17 AM on August 31, 2022
The biggest, douchiest guy on the sales floor came after me shouting about how much he'd lower the price. He even blocked me from leaving and continued to follow me out into the parking lot shouting about how I was walking away from "a steal".
I once read a (possibly apocryphal) tale of a person visiting a dealership. A salesdroid asked if they were considering trading-in their current car. The person said ‘yes’, so the salesdroid asked for the keys so they could roll it into the service area for a quick inspection, ostensibly to be able to give the person a more accurate valuation. Once they had the keys, the salesdroid went and tossed them onto the roof of the stealership, and wasn’t getting them down until a deal was made.
As I said, this is almost certainly apocryphal. That said, there are many, many stories of buyers’ keys somehow getting “lost” or “misplaced” back in the service area, so “while they look for them, let’s sit down and talk.”
posted by Thorzdad at 8:20 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I once read a (possibly apocryphal) tale of a person visiting a dealership. A salesdroid asked if they were considering trading-in their current car. The person said ‘yes’, so the salesdroid asked for the keys so they could roll it into the service area for a quick inspection, ostensibly to be able to give the person a more accurate valuation. Once they had the keys, the salesdroid went and tossed them onto the roof of the stealership, and wasn’t getting them down until a deal was made.
As I said, this is almost certainly apocryphal. That said, there are many, many stories of buyers’ keys somehow getting “lost” or “misplaced” back in the service area, so “while they look for them, let’s sit down and talk.”
posted by Thorzdad at 8:20 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I tend to lean towards just getting a used car via CarMax... No endless bickering and fighting, and while you might be able to get a better price elsewhere, the transparency and lack of hassle are totally worth it to me.
When we figured it would be cheaper switching back to car ownership due to rising car rental prices, we decided to get a Smart car since we'd been enjoying using them with Car2Go. Crazily enough, there was a specialized local dealer who was buying the returned leased models from Mercedes and reselling them for a profit. He actually showed me the internal Mercedes website he used to purchase the cars when we were looking for specific features. It displayed the wholesale price he was purchasing them for, so he was adding just $1000 over the price which I thought was completely fair. I think he was making more on people who needed loans, but we paid cash and it wasn't a fight at all. I still can't believe how good the experience was. I don't know what I'm going to do when this car dies, small efficient cars have ceased to exist in this stupid country...
posted by rambling wanderlust at 8:20 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
When we figured it would be cheaper switching back to car ownership due to rising car rental prices, we decided to get a Smart car since we'd been enjoying using them with Car2Go. Crazily enough, there was a specialized local dealer who was buying the returned leased models from Mercedes and reselling them for a profit. He actually showed me the internal Mercedes website he used to purchase the cars when we were looking for specific features. It displayed the wholesale price he was purchasing them for, so he was adding just $1000 over the price which I thought was completely fair. I think he was making more on people who needed loans, but we paid cash and it wasn't a fight at all. I still can't believe how good the experience was. I don't know what I'm going to do when this car dies, small efficient cars have ceased to exist in this stupid country...
posted by rambling wanderlust at 8:20 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
I love buying cars from dealerships - it's a really a nature-is-red-in-claw-and-tooth thrill. The biggest disappointment for me in buying a Tesla was Elon Musk getting every cent from me that he wanted, rather than me being able to extract a grand or two from the dealer.
posted by MattD at 8:23 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by MattD at 8:23 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
My wife's car is a Subaru that we bought through the Costco auto program, and it was an alright purchasing experience. There is a clear price sheet, and Costco does check every sale to make sure the dealer is compliant with Costco's program. You won't get the absolute best cut-to-the-bone deal, and they're absolutely still going to try to fuck you on the financing if you let them, but it's a lower-stress experience than a "normal" purchase.
I helped my mother buy a Hyundai about 7 years ago, though, and I will never ... ever ... for any reason ... set foot inside a Hyundai dealer again. Everything from start to finish was awful. I get the sense that this dealer is not unique among local Hyundai dealers in that regard. Which is a shame, because the Hyundai / Kia EVs are really nice.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:24 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
I helped my mother buy a Hyundai about 7 years ago, though, and I will never ... ever ... for any reason ... set foot inside a Hyundai dealer again. Everything from start to finish was awful. I get the sense that this dealer is not unique among local Hyundai dealers in that regard. Which is a shame, because the Hyundai / Kia EVs are really nice.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:24 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Totally agree about Costco. I went through them to buy my Subaru, and it wasn't terrible at all.
posted by Akhu at 8:43 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Akhu at 8:43 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Years ago somewhere on metafilter (maybe on the green?) I found these instructions from the incredibly scammy-looking and -sounding website findthebestcarprice.com. Let me tell you, those instructions work, though I don't know how they work in the current buying environment, which I understand to be very different from 2016 when I got my car. The website does have other guides, but I haven't used them.
I followed the instructions to the letter and ended up buying a brand new car from a dealership 50 miles away for $1000 less than the previous years' model with 10k miles quote at my nearest dealership. Again, brand new car $1000 less than last year's used car. I couldn't believe it. The entire process was done by email until I had to go in and sign the documents for the sale. I pretended I didn't have a phone; put in a fake number (123-456-7890) in online contact forms; and ignored requests for a phone number in emails from the salesperson.
The whole process took about a week and you have to know exactly what you want (I used this website to know I wanted a jasmine green GFF14); a couple days to gather contact info for dealerships within a couple hundred miles, a couple days for the email back and forth, a couple days to finalize the deal and go in and sign the paperwork. At one point a couple steps through the bidding war process, three different dealerships said something to the effect of "I don't believe that price the other dealership quoted you. If it's true, you should buy it because I can never do better than that." So that's what I did.
I've pointed a few other people to the instructions. A couple have followed them exactly and had great success. A couple have been less disciplined and deviated from the instructions just a little and it didn't work out as well.
posted by msbrauer at 8:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [30 favorites]
I followed the instructions to the letter and ended up buying a brand new car from a dealership 50 miles away for $1000 less than the previous years' model with 10k miles quote at my nearest dealership. Again, brand new car $1000 less than last year's used car. I couldn't believe it. The entire process was done by email until I had to go in and sign the documents for the sale. I pretended I didn't have a phone; put in a fake number (123-456-7890) in online contact forms; and ignored requests for a phone number in emails from the salesperson.
The whole process took about a week and you have to know exactly what you want (I used this website to know I wanted a jasmine green GFF14); a couple days to gather contact info for dealerships within a couple hundred miles, a couple days for the email back and forth, a couple days to finalize the deal and go in and sign the paperwork. At one point a couple steps through the bidding war process, three different dealerships said something to the effect of "I don't believe that price the other dealership quoted you. If it's true, you should buy it because I can never do better than that." So that's what I did.
I've pointed a few other people to the instructions. A couple have followed them exactly and had great success. A couple have been less disciplined and deviated from the instructions just a little and it didn't work out as well.
posted by msbrauer at 8:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [30 favorites]
What amazes me is that these shady places can stay in business -- there's one car dealership in town that, for decades, has been known as the slimy dealership. The local Reddit board has, every couple weeks, people complaining about them doing unauthorized add-ons, changing amounts after everything is signed, and generally being super gross to customers -- but, like I said, they've been in business for decades, and yet they can still keep the lights on. And they do have a giant flag out front.
There must be such an unbelievable profit in their sales that it doesn't matter if there's a lot of the local population who won't shop with them, or enough customers have been conditioned to expect that behavior that it doesn't impact their business.
I also won't go to the new-car dealerships in town for service any more; they have shown unbridled incompetence with every repair I have brought to them. I now drive 40 miles to the Ford dealership two towns over when I need things done to that vehicle, otherwise I go to an actual mechanic.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:54 AM on August 31, 2022
There must be such an unbelievable profit in their sales that it doesn't matter if there's a lot of the local population who won't shop with them, or enough customers have been conditioned to expect that behavior that it doesn't impact their business.
I also won't go to the new-car dealerships in town for service any more; they have shown unbridled incompetence with every repair I have brought to them. I now drive 40 miles to the Ford dealership two towns over when I need things done to that vehicle, otherwise I go to an actual mechanic.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:54 AM on August 31, 2022
Back in the 50's and 60's, my dad rode in trucks that delivered cars to the dealerships, first Studebaker, then Ford. Ostensibly, he was there to make sure all the manufacturer-to-dealer details were correct. In actuality, he was there to threaten the dealerships.
"No, you can't put microphones in the plants on the desk. No, you can't keep their keys. No, you can't offer prostitutes as an incentive. If Ford gets one more complaint, we're pulling your deal, and you'll be selling used Chevys for the rest of your company's short existence."
posted by SunSnork at 8:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [20 favorites]
"No, you can't put microphones in the plants on the desk. No, you can't keep their keys. No, you can't offer prostitutes as an incentive. If Ford gets one more complaint, we're pulling your deal, and you'll be selling used Chevys for the rest of your company's short existence."
posted by SunSnork at 8:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [20 favorites]
I've bought my last two cars through Carmax. The purchase process was easy, transparent, and I can't imagine ever dealing with a dealership again.
If I want a 'new' car, I'm happy to buy a year-old model with 8000 miles on it rather than set foot in a dealership.
The only thing I really find annoying about Carmax is their aggressive online advertising. If I look at a car on their website, I see an ad for it on every web site I look at for the next month. But incognito mode mostly fixes that.
posted by Hatashran at 8:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
If I want a 'new' car, I'm happy to buy a year-old model with 8000 miles on it rather than set foot in a dealership.
The only thing I really find annoying about Carmax is their aggressive online advertising. If I look at a car on their website, I see an ad for it on every web site I look at for the next month. But incognito mode mostly fixes that.
posted by Hatashran at 8:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
In general, I tend to find dealerships to be too high stress and annoying. Haggling for price is not something I want to spend my weekend doing and the FOMO and learning that somebody else got the same thing for $x less can be annoying.
I guess I've managed to avoid most of the issues over the years. Car buying experiences to date:
1) Saturn SL2 back in the mid '90s. Fixed price, no bs. It was easy. But I was young and really didn't know what I was doing so this was a good match.
2) Jeep Cherokee. I had a bit more of a clue by this time. I walked in with the spreadsheet of their cost and what features I wanted and handed it to the sales guy with a "I want this with as many of these features in one of these four colors...". Told him I'd give him $250 over invoice knowing that they also had the hold back. He said "No problem, how about that one..." and was done with it. I still have this vehicle 23 years later. Parts are still ridiculously cheap and easy to source for this thing.
3) Volvo S40. Tested a bunch of cars to replace the aforementioned SL2 and ended up really liking this one. They were brand new at the time, so I ordered it to my exact spec. Easy as cake and yeah dealership more or less sold it for msrp due to the complete lack of supply at the time, but there were no other upsells or shenanigan's from them. It finally died from a blown coolant line with just shy of 250,000 miles on it. It was a good little car.
4) Used Volvo V70. Found it online at a high end dealership. They just wanted the thing off of their lot as it was not becoming of the Land Rovers and such that they normally sold. Got it for a smidge below KBB used for that make/model/year. Main lesson here is to look for well maintained used vehicles on the back lots of high end vehicle dealerships.
5) Ford Fusion Energi (Plug-in hybrid). Bought via the Costco Auto Purchase Program. Fill in the form, the fleet sales rep called, handed us a list of what they had with the prices. Ended up $2k under invoice plus I got the 60 months zero percent thing that Ford was offering for "well qualified" buyers, so that kind of put a quick end to the usual financing gig that the dealerships have. They didn't even attempt to add any of the usual stuff like the undercoat. Rather easy. I still have this vehicle.
6) Tesla Model 3: Ridiculously simple. You spec, you pay, you pick it up, you drive away and hopefully don't get a speeding ticket on your way home. The good thing about Tesla is that Elon has a singular vision for how stuff should just work. The bad thing about Tesla is that Elon has a singular vision for how things should just work and is frequently the poster child for Nobel Disease. Side note: This is the go-to vehicle at the house between me and my wife. I also like how the map interface is the first one in a car that is actually usable. Big touchscreens do have their place.
It seems that having access to the internet to do a lot of research ahead of time really helps. Absent that, things like the Costco purchase program may be a decent fit if you are just hoping to get a decent deal.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 9:07 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I guess I've managed to avoid most of the issues over the years. Car buying experiences to date:
1) Saturn SL2 back in the mid '90s. Fixed price, no bs. It was easy. But I was young and really didn't know what I was doing so this was a good match.
2) Jeep Cherokee. I had a bit more of a clue by this time. I walked in with the spreadsheet of their cost and what features I wanted and handed it to the sales guy with a "I want this with as many of these features in one of these four colors...". Told him I'd give him $250 over invoice knowing that they also had the hold back. He said "No problem, how about that one..." and was done with it. I still have this vehicle 23 years later. Parts are still ridiculously cheap and easy to source for this thing.
3) Volvo S40. Tested a bunch of cars to replace the aforementioned SL2 and ended up really liking this one. They were brand new at the time, so I ordered it to my exact spec. Easy as cake and yeah dealership more or less sold it for msrp due to the complete lack of supply at the time, but there were no other upsells or shenanigan's from them. It finally died from a blown coolant line with just shy of 250,000 miles on it. It was a good little car.
4) Used Volvo V70. Found it online at a high end dealership. They just wanted the thing off of their lot as it was not becoming of the Land Rovers and such that they normally sold. Got it for a smidge below KBB used for that make/model/year. Main lesson here is to look for well maintained used vehicles on the back lots of high end vehicle dealerships.
5) Ford Fusion Energi (Plug-in hybrid). Bought via the Costco Auto Purchase Program. Fill in the form, the fleet sales rep called, handed us a list of what they had with the prices. Ended up $2k under invoice plus I got the 60 months zero percent thing that Ford was offering for "well qualified" buyers, so that kind of put a quick end to the usual financing gig that the dealerships have. They didn't even attempt to add any of the usual stuff like the undercoat. Rather easy. I still have this vehicle.
6) Tesla Model 3: Ridiculously simple. You spec, you pay, you pick it up, you drive away and hopefully don't get a speeding ticket on your way home. The good thing about Tesla is that Elon has a singular vision for how stuff should just work. The bad thing about Tesla is that Elon has a singular vision for how things should just work and is frequently the poster child for Nobel Disease. Side note: This is the go-to vehicle at the house between me and my wife. I also like how the map interface is the first one in a car that is actually usable. Big touchscreens do have their place.
It seems that having access to the internet to do a lot of research ahead of time really helps. Absent that, things like the Costco purchase program may be a decent fit if you are just hoping to get a decent deal.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 9:07 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Say what you will about Tesla (dare I admit to owning a Tesla on Metafilter?), but the purchasing experience was so mind-blowingly good that it was almost the sole basis for us purchasing another one when our other car needed replacing. I will never purchase a car through a dealership again.
I agree, I will never buy non-EV car again. More importantly, I will never buy another car from a dealership again, so other manufacturers getting good EVs launched is not going be enough.
posted by zeikka at 9:14 AM on August 31, 2022
I agree, I will never buy non-EV car again. More importantly, I will never buy another car from a dealership again, so other manufacturers getting good EVs launched is not going be enough.
posted by zeikka at 9:14 AM on August 31, 2022
We just put a deposit down for a new car as our 19-year old Golf is done. We wanted another small hatchback, so the choices are pretty limited in the era of SUVs. All the dealerships were annoying, pushing financing and extras and "how much do you want to pay a month" on us before we even sat in a car . . . . except for the VW dealership we bought the car at.
We walked in the door, they immediately showed us the car we wanted (GTI), let us sit in it (one of the other dealers wouldn't even let us touch the car on the showroom floor!) and poke around, including under the hood, handed us a key and told us to have fun on the test drive. We got back and the negotiation basically was the salesperson asking us what we wanted (manual base model), what colour (red), and did we want any extras (no), and that was that. No upselling, no pushing extras.
I had the same experience at that dealer 19 years ago when I bought the Golf. Completely painless. I have a nagging feeling that some of the other cars we considered instead of a GTI may have been more practical or reliable choices, but the dealer experience was so odious I had no interest in giving them any money. They just reeked of scam.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:21 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
We walked in the door, they immediately showed us the car we wanted (GTI), let us sit in it (one of the other dealers wouldn't even let us touch the car on the showroom floor!) and poke around, including under the hood, handed us a key and told us to have fun on the test drive. We got back and the negotiation basically was the salesperson asking us what we wanted (manual base model), what colour (red), and did we want any extras (no), and that was that. No upselling, no pushing extras.
I had the same experience at that dealer 19 years ago when I bought the Golf. Completely painless. I have a nagging feeling that some of the other cars we considered instead of a GTI may have been more practical or reliable choices, but the dealer experience was so odious I had no interest in giving them any money. They just reeked of scam.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:21 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Funny little anecdote, when I was young and desperate for work I went to a local car dealer that had an ad in the paper looking for sales people and said "hey, I'm looking for work, are you hiring?" And the guys said, "nope." So I shrugged and left.
It only occurred to me years later that I had failed the most basic test possible of whether I could be an asshole salesman, which is to never take "no" for an answer.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:29 AM on August 31, 2022 [20 favorites]
It only occurred to me years later that I had failed the most basic test possible of whether I could be an asshole salesman, which is to never take "no" for an answer.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:29 AM on August 31, 2022 [20 favorites]
Anyone who is particularly tall, short, fat, or differently abled should absolutely test drive a car before they buy it.
I am tall but it's all in my torso, my legs are average. I can't fit in a car that lacks sufficient headroom. My Subaru Forester is the first car I've had in decades where I can flip the sunvisors down without having to slouch to see the road.
posted by tommasz at 9:41 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am tall but it's all in my torso, my legs are average. I can't fit in a car that lacks sufficient headroom. My Subaru Forester is the first car I've had in decades where I can flip the sunvisors down without having to slouch to see the road.
posted by tommasz at 9:41 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Buying low-mileage used cars in good condition is the way. My most recent car, bought about two years ago, is a gray 2015 Honda Accord sedan. I bought it to replace the gray 2015 Honda Accord sedan I'd bought the year before and totaled in an accident.
We used USAA's car-buying service, but we still ended up doing tons of paperwork.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:43 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
We used USAA's car-buying service, but we still ended up doing tons of paperwork.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:43 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
A couple decades ago I went car shopping with a friend and there was some dealer that had its own sticker next to the manufacturer sticker, with a "local market adjustment" item marking the price up by like $2K. Unsurprisingly the salesmen there matched every bad stereotype of a car salesman. I think we left within five minutes of arriving, and yes, they tried to block us on our way out.
posted by fedward at 9:48 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by fedward at 9:48 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I also learned, when the battery died recently, that because everything is run by computer, you literally cannot jump-start this car (if I'm wrong about it, please tell me how to do it!)
Looking up youtube videos for jumpstarting a Mazda Cx5 (including up to a 2021), it's the standard process for jumpstarting a car, and the battery is right on top and very accessible so it seems pretty easy.
Also, most cars have 'computers', so they don't need anything specific to be reset. You may be talking about the radio anti-theft reset, which makes the radio functions unusable -you will need to get the reset code from the dealership and write it down somewhere, and then you can reset it yourself.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:52 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Looking up youtube videos for jumpstarting a Mazda Cx5 (including up to a 2021), it's the standard process for jumpstarting a car, and the battery is right on top and very accessible so it seems pretty easy.
Also, most cars have 'computers', so they don't need anything specific to be reset. You may be talking about the radio anti-theft reset, which makes the radio functions unusable -you will need to get the reset code from the dealership and write it down somewhere, and then you can reset it yourself.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:52 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am tall but it's all in my torso, my legs are average. I can't fit in a car that lacks sufficient headroom.
I have osteroarthritis in my knee and hip that are problematic to varying degrees on any given day. I need a car that is not too high to get into, or too low to get out of. And I need a firm, upright seat. My partner drove a Honda Civic for awhile, a car we both really liked, but it had a sort of pseudo-sports-car built-in slouch to the arrangement of seat, steering wheel, and pedals, and my low back did not like it at all. I did better in our old Scion xA, a teensy car with nice upright seating.
Minivans and my partner's current small SUV work well for me. But if I want to buy anything other than a minivan I've already had one of, or a duplicate of my partner's car, I will need to sample it. Fortunately, one of the ways I do this is by getting in and out of friends' cars when I have the chance. I look forward to testing a friend's brand-new Mini Cooper this weekend. Her old car got totaled, and fortunately she was able to borrow a car from a friend, because she did end up buying new after considering a lot of options, and had to wait a few months, including knowing when her car was put on a cargo ship in China and when it arrived in port. When she went to pick it up, the dealership had put on one of those big red ribbons you see in movies, which I thought was a nice touch.
If I had the means to buy an impractical midlife crisis car, this nicely-restored 1981 VW Vanagon is basically my dream car. I've wanted a VW van or minibus since I was a wee tot watching Scooby-doo in the late 60s.
posted by Well I never at 9:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I have osteroarthritis in my knee and hip that are problematic to varying degrees on any given day. I need a car that is not too high to get into, or too low to get out of. And I need a firm, upright seat. My partner drove a Honda Civic for awhile, a car we both really liked, but it had a sort of pseudo-sports-car built-in slouch to the arrangement of seat, steering wheel, and pedals, and my low back did not like it at all. I did better in our old Scion xA, a teensy car with nice upright seating.
Minivans and my partner's current small SUV work well for me. But if I want to buy anything other than a minivan I've already had one of, or a duplicate of my partner's car, I will need to sample it. Fortunately, one of the ways I do this is by getting in and out of friends' cars when I have the chance. I look forward to testing a friend's brand-new Mini Cooper this weekend. Her old car got totaled, and fortunately she was able to borrow a car from a friend, because she did end up buying new after considering a lot of options, and had to wait a few months, including knowing when her car was put on a cargo ship in China and when it arrived in port. When she went to pick it up, the dealership had put on one of those big red ribbons you see in movies, which I thought was a nice touch.
If I had the means to buy an impractical midlife crisis car, this nicely-restored 1981 VW Vanagon is basically my dream car. I've wanted a VW van or minibus since I was a wee tot watching Scooby-doo in the late 60s.
posted by Well I never at 9:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
From the manufacturer's side, the biggest value-add the dealerships (or supermarkets) provide is their proximity to the customer - in terms of knowledge of local buying habits.
I dunno, I think this could also work against both the manufacturers' and buyers' interests, if the dealers are bound by greed, tradition, or their own (possibly outdated) ideas about what will work in a given market. What good's a middleman who flouts MSRP or provides a terrible service experience (cf. Hyundai's fight with its dealers over its reputation)? What good's a middleman who misrepresents the market to the manufacturer because "that's what sells here?"
When I bought my one new car, I had to get the dealer to pull it from another dealership in another state, since "nobody" in Oklahoma wanted a car with a manual transmission. Well, except me. I wanted one, and they didn't have it, even though they knew the market best.
posted by fedward at 9:59 AM on August 31, 2022
I dunno, I think this could also work against both the manufacturers' and buyers' interests, if the dealers are bound by greed, tradition, or their own (possibly outdated) ideas about what will work in a given market. What good's a middleman who flouts MSRP or provides a terrible service experience (cf. Hyundai's fight with its dealers over its reputation)? What good's a middleman who misrepresents the market to the manufacturer because "that's what sells here?"
When I bought my one new car, I had to get the dealer to pull it from another dealership in another state, since "nobody" in Oklahoma wanted a car with a manual transmission. Well, except me. I wanted one, and they didn't have it, even though they knew the market best.
posted by fedward at 9:59 AM on August 31, 2022
I'll just add another log onto the fire of reasons to not go to a dealership.
I was at the dealer last year and everything was going about as well as it could, I had all my financing already in place, had quickly fended off all the upgrades, etc and then my rep mentioned insurance. He "ran the numbers" and said that if I switched to Traveler's Insurance I could save X% compared to my current rates.
Well, obviously a red flag was raised, I knew he would be getting a commission on this but against my better judgment I figured, well, if the rate is lower what do I care? It's not as if I'm particularly loyal to my current firm.
I was double-checking "the numbers" and was about to sign, when I noticed some small print about how everyone on the policy would have to download an app within 90 days to be eligible.
Me: "Hey, what's this app thing?"
Him: "Oh, it's just a formality that Travelers' requires, for (mumbles gibberish)."
Me: "Yeah, that doesn't sound right, I need to do some research, brb."
Hmm, after 10 minutes of searching online, I discover the Travelers' app is surveillance software on your phone that reports your driving habits (speed, sudden stops, god knows what else) back to the mothership. Additionally, if you don't install it, you lose the "discount" that you were getting.
So I returned and told him to stuff his discount, I'll stay with my current firm. That's when the claws came out and he said, "Well, we have a special hotline to Travelers and you get instant approval if you sign w/them and can drive the car off the lot immediately. Otherwise, it's going to take 24 hours to get the paperwork from your current provider, blah blah."
In these situations I try to conserve energy so I just said nothing. We looked at each other in silence until he figured it out and dropped the conversation.
(Oh, and I called my insurance carrier and got the approval within 10 minutes even though it was 7PM, so much for that 24 hour waiting period.)
posted by jeremias at 10:07 AM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
I was at the dealer last year and everything was going about as well as it could, I had all my financing already in place, had quickly fended off all the upgrades, etc and then my rep mentioned insurance. He "ran the numbers" and said that if I switched to Traveler's Insurance I could save X% compared to my current rates.
Well, obviously a red flag was raised, I knew he would be getting a commission on this but against my better judgment I figured, well, if the rate is lower what do I care? It's not as if I'm particularly loyal to my current firm.
I was double-checking "the numbers" and was about to sign, when I noticed some small print about how everyone on the policy would have to download an app within 90 days to be eligible.
Me: "Hey, what's this app thing?"
Him: "Oh, it's just a formality that Travelers' requires, for (mumbles gibberish)."
Me: "Yeah, that doesn't sound right, I need to do some research, brb."
Hmm, after 10 minutes of searching online, I discover the Travelers' app is surveillance software on your phone that reports your driving habits (speed, sudden stops, god knows what else) back to the mothership. Additionally, if you don't install it, you lose the "discount" that you were getting.
So I returned and told him to stuff his discount, I'll stay with my current firm. That's when the claws came out and he said, "Well, we have a special hotline to Travelers and you get instant approval if you sign w/them and can drive the car off the lot immediately. Otherwise, it's going to take 24 hours to get the paperwork from your current provider, blah blah."
In these situations I try to conserve energy so I just said nothing. We looked at each other in silence until he figured it out and dropped the conversation.
(Oh, and I called my insurance carrier and got the approval within 10 minutes even though it was 7PM, so much for that 24 hour waiting period.)
posted by jeremias at 10:07 AM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
In summer of '20, we bought a '19 Forte. The first dealership we dealt with, I communicated with the salesman by email, verifying the price and that there were no add-ons. We then drove 45 minutes in rush hour traffic to the dealer to close the deal, at which point the salesman met us outside an apologized for a misunderstanding, that there were add-ons, and that the cost would be $2k more than we agreed. I stayed in the car with my wife, and I came to the conclusion that I couldn't in good conscience do business with the dealership. So we went home.
Then I sent an e-mail to the salesman explaining the several ways in which Texas state law was violated in terms of the price of the car being listed on their website, which is considered an offer to sell, and in terms of our agreement in principle and his assurance that this was actually the price.
The salesman agreed to sell us the car at that price, but I didn't trust him to honor other parts of the transaction, so we decided to pass. Eventually we went to another dealer, and we bought a higher model of forte, with 50 miles of test driving, with $8k higher MSRP for $3k more than our earlier agreement in principle. The second dealer and second salesman were hard-nose, negotiating aggressively on things like the value of our trade-in. (We eventually just decided to donate it to charity.) But they didn't do anything behind our back.
I just plugged my car into a CarMax offer, and they offered me, 25,000 miles later, exactly what I paid for it. That strikes me as pretty insane.
posted by parliboy at 10:11 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Then I sent an e-mail to the salesman explaining the several ways in which Texas state law was violated in terms of the price of the car being listed on their website, which is considered an offer to sell, and in terms of our agreement in principle and his assurance that this was actually the price.
The salesman agreed to sell us the car at that price, but I didn't trust him to honor other parts of the transaction, so we decided to pass. Eventually we went to another dealer, and we bought a higher model of forte, with 50 miles of test driving, with $8k higher MSRP for $3k more than our earlier agreement in principle. The second dealer and second salesman were hard-nose, negotiating aggressively on things like the value of our trade-in. (We eventually just decided to donate it to charity.) But they didn't do anything behind our back.
I just plugged my car into a CarMax offer, and they offered me, 25,000 miles later, exactly what I paid for it. That strikes me as pretty insane.
posted by parliboy at 10:11 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
jeremias, I was wondering when surveillance of driving speeds etc via phone app would become standard. I didn't expect it to be pushed via car dealership!
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:11 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:11 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
If anyone reading this thread is working to convert to bikes/trikes/ebikes/etc., I'm happy to help you sort out the details of the next step that's right for you. Bonus: infinite headroom!
posted by aniola at 10:16 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by aniola at 10:16 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
Parliboy - used cars are a lot more expensive than they were in the summer of 2020. Not as expensive as they were six months ago, but still dear.
CarMax also makes a lot of its money on financing, insurance, and warranties. They can afford to be skinny on the profit margin on the actual vehicle.
posted by MattD at 10:19 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
CarMax also makes a lot of its money on financing, insurance, and warranties. They can afford to be skinny on the profit margin on the actual vehicle.
posted by MattD at 10:19 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
My first time buying a car (A Geo Metro) was a complete nightmare. It took HOURS and was just in general a terrible experience like everyone here has said. The second time (a Honda Fit) my car had just died while I was on travel and I needed a new car pronto in order to even get home again. It was the same thing - hours of horrible up-selling and attempts at strong arming me into spending more than I wanted to.
I bought a new car (Honda H-RV) in 2020, trading in my Fit. It was the best experience, I think in part due to COVID - they wanted me out of there as fast as possible and there were no other people in the dealership. I knew exactly what I wanted (having test driven one), and that the dealership had it in stock. I walked in, told them exactly what I wanted, and paid the exact price I had determined from online was what I was willing to pay. They halfheartedly asked about add ons but didn't press when I said no. I think it took about an hour before I walked out with the keys. I count myself lucky. Maybe by the time I need my next car, it will be a similar experience rather than the normal dealership one...
posted by gemmy at 10:35 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I bought a new car (Honda H-RV) in 2020, trading in my Fit. It was the best experience, I think in part due to COVID - they wanted me out of there as fast as possible and there were no other people in the dealership. I knew exactly what I wanted (having test driven one), and that the dealership had it in stock. I walked in, told them exactly what I wanted, and paid the exact price I had determined from online was what I was willing to pay. They halfheartedly asked about add ons but didn't press when I said no. I think it took about an hour before I walked out with the keys. I count myself lucky. Maybe by the time I need my next car, it will be a similar experience rather than the normal dealership one...
posted by gemmy at 10:35 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
A slew of economic studies has found patterns in who bears the brunt of this pricing strategy. It's not pretty. For example, a number of studies find that dealerships tend to charge people of color more than white folks. Another study finds that older people tend to be charged higher prices than younger people, and that older women tend to be charged the highest price of all.
Ugh. Price discrimination indeed.
It sucks to think that you could do all this work to haggle and not get ripped off, but it doesn't matter because dealerships will just make up for it by ripping off someone more sociallly marginal than you--you would directly monetarily benefit from misogyny, ageism and racism
posted by eustatic at 10:43 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ugh. Price discrimination indeed.
It sucks to think that you could do all this work to haggle and not get ripped off, but it doesn't matter because dealerships will just make up for it by ripping off someone more sociallly marginal than you--you would directly monetarily benefit from misogyny, ageism and racism
posted by eustatic at 10:43 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I have found the radio show "Car Pro USA" to be an excellent resource on meta-trends in the dealership world, and the hosts do a lot of reviews, and basically the new-not-used and way-less-fun version of Car Talk. Lot of good information about finding dealerships, things to worry about, warnings about trends that are harmful to consumers, and recommendations for dealerships.
They have a network of member dealerships that have made various commitments to customer service, and meet certain criteria.
CarProUSA Blog, CarProUSA Podcast
If you're looking for it on the radio, try one of your local conservative talk radio stations midday on a Saturday or Sunday. The show is obviously geared toward the new car buyer and the older car buyer, but I think it does a net good, as those are two groups that get systematically ripped off.
posted by shenkerism at 10:49 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
They have a network of member dealerships that have made various commitments to customer service, and meet certain criteria.
CarProUSA Blog, CarProUSA Podcast
If you're looking for it on the radio, try one of your local conservative talk radio stations midday on a Saturday or Sunday. The show is obviously geared toward the new car buyer and the older car buyer, but I think it does a net good, as those are two groups that get systematically ripped off.
posted by shenkerism at 10:49 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
The "we need car dealerships because JOBS" line is pretty thin gruel, FWIW. Around me, at least, salespeople at dealerships make barely any money in base salary--if you want the big bucks, it's all via commissions and sales targets. Which means that nearly all the money being paid out in this economic tour-de-force is coming directly from buyers who are being unnecessarily upcharged by unscrupulous dealerships. Like the article says, these practices disproportionately target the elderly, minorities, and women, so: congratulations, capitalism, you've invented yet another way to siphon money from vulnerable populations and into the pockets of middlemen.
posted by Mayor West at 10:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Mayor West at 10:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
When I bought a new car in 2008, the union that I was a member of did this deal where they would get 20 or 50 or 100 union members [from multiple unions] who wanted to buy a new car, and then approach multiple dealers to see who would give them the best price on 20 or 50 cars or 100 cars.
(Choice magazine (a consumer rights magazine) subscribers could also access this deal)
Saved thousands, no going to the dealership
(The car was delivered to me in the parking lot of the government office where you register cars)
posted by carriage pulled by cassowaries at 10:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
(Choice magazine (a consumer rights magazine) subscribers could also access this deal)
Saved thousands, no going to the dealership
(The car was delivered to me in the parking lot of the government office where you register cars)
posted by carriage pulled by cassowaries at 10:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
Main lesson here is to look for well maintained used vehicles on the back lots of high end vehicle dealerships
Been there, done that, would do it again.
Last spring we started searching for a SUV. We had been driving a pair of Mercury Grand Marquis that we'd inherited from my mother. I called them Mercury Land Yachts. It was like driving from a couch and they were utter shit on snow and ice. Given that I live in a rural area that has six months of winter, they were less than ideal transportation. That situation reached a tipping point when we did two 360s on a highway and ended up with the back end hanging off the shoulder. This happened on an icy day...in April.
I started searching online for a SUV and nearly everything in my state was over-priced domestic crap. I was sick of domestic crap. So I set my online search for the Twin Cities, 600 miles away. I found that the market was hotter than Hades for SUVs and the three row monsters were fetching a couple thousand over Blue Book. BUT there appeared to be a number of small luxury SUVs that were selling at good prices because everyone seemed to want the monstrosities. I drove the Land Yacht that had only 60K on it down to Minneapolis and went to work.
In one day I test drove and dickered at a handful of dealerships for Acura, Lexus, and Infinity models. I pulled the trigger at a high end dealership for a used Lexus RX 350 with 100K miles and they gave me three grand for the Land Yacht. No bullshit from the sales guy either (though the used sales guy at another dealership was from the old school and I ran from him as fast as I could). By the end of the day I was driving west, cranking the bejesus out of the sound system.
I have driven this SUV for a year now. It handles all the challenges a North Dakota winter can throw and it will likely run for another 100,000 miles or more. I would go back to hitting high end dealers in a heartbeat.
posted by Ber at 10:59 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Been there, done that, would do it again.
Last spring we started searching for a SUV. We had been driving a pair of Mercury Grand Marquis that we'd inherited from my mother. I called them Mercury Land Yachts. It was like driving from a couch and they were utter shit on snow and ice. Given that I live in a rural area that has six months of winter, they were less than ideal transportation. That situation reached a tipping point when we did two 360s on a highway and ended up with the back end hanging off the shoulder. This happened on an icy day...in April.
I started searching online for a SUV and nearly everything in my state was over-priced domestic crap. I was sick of domestic crap. So I set my online search for the Twin Cities, 600 miles away. I found that the market was hotter than Hades for SUVs and the three row monsters were fetching a couple thousand over Blue Book. BUT there appeared to be a number of small luxury SUVs that were selling at good prices because everyone seemed to want the monstrosities. I drove the Land Yacht that had only 60K on it down to Minneapolis and went to work.
In one day I test drove and dickered at a handful of dealerships for Acura, Lexus, and Infinity models. I pulled the trigger at a high end dealership for a used Lexus RX 350 with 100K miles and they gave me three grand for the Land Yacht. No bullshit from the sales guy either (though the used sales guy at another dealership was from the old school and I ran from him as fast as I could). By the end of the day I was driving west, cranking the bejesus out of the sound system.
I have driven this SUV for a year now. It handles all the challenges a North Dakota winter can throw and it will likely run for another 100,000 miles or more. I would go back to hitting high end dealers in a heartbeat.
posted by Ber at 10:59 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
The one time I went to a new-car dealership, they said,
"Oh, we don't have [model you want] in [colour you want], how about you get this one which is the wrong colour and more expensive, otherwise it's an 8 week wait"
"No thanks, I'll go somewhere else"
the look of utter surprise and utter disgust they gave me was quite something...
posted by carriage pulled by cassowaries at 11:06 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Oh, we don't have [model you want] in [colour you want], how about you get this one which is the wrong colour and more expensive, otherwise it's an 8 week wait"
"No thanks, I'll go somewhere else"
the look of utter surprise and utter disgust they gave me was quite something...
posted by carriage pulled by cassowaries at 11:06 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Main lesson here is to look for well maintained used vehicles on the back lots of high end vehicle dealerships
In the late 80's my dad bought a 1962 VW delivery van with Arizona plates from an exotic car dealership in Buffalo. He paid around $200 because they wanted it off the lot. The dealer said they got it as a trade-in. I always wondered what was in the back of that van that made it an acceptable trade in for a Lambo.
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:07 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
In the late 80's my dad bought a 1962 VW delivery van with Arizona plates from an exotic car dealership in Buffalo. He paid around $200 because they wanted it off the lot. The dealer said they got it as a trade-in. I always wondered what was in the back of that van that made it an acceptable trade in for a Lambo.
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:07 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
When I bought my car 10 years ago I went to a lot of dealerships to test drive cars, Toyota, Subaru, Mazda and VW. The salespeople were all very nice, let us put our stroller in the trunk to see how it fit, load up our child seat, and didn't perform any high pressure sales tactics. In fact we came back to the Toyota dealership for a second drive in a Venza when my daughter threw up in it. We were mortified but the salesperson, Jason, was again really nice about it. I wanted the Venza my wife didn't because the name sounds too much like toilet seat in Japanese but we took throw up incident as a sign not to get the car.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:09 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:09 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
In Australia, cars that used to be part of government fleets get sold at public auctions when they're less than 5 years old.
They're often in very good condition for the price, and have AMAZINGLY DETAILED condition reports - one condition report noted "colour of seatbelts has faded"
posted by carriage pulled by cassowaries at 11:11 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
They're often in very good condition for the price, and have AMAZINGLY DETAILED condition reports - one condition report noted "colour of seatbelts has faded"
posted by carriage pulled by cassowaries at 11:11 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
> jeremias, I was wondering when surveillance of driving speeds etc via phone app would become standard. I didn't expect it to be pushed via car dealership!
Yep, I suspect that as traditional dealerships keep feeling the pinch from places like CarMax, they are going to increasingly borrow strategies from them.
It's a recipe for decline over the long run. For example, after the shenanigans the dealer pulled in my previous anecdote, I take my car to an independent repair shop, not the dealer.
Congrats! For being shortsighted enough to trade the (possibility) of a couple hundred bucks in insurance commissions for my trust, you lost a long term source of revenue. 👏
posted by jeremias at 11:15 AM on August 31, 2022
Yep, I suspect that as traditional dealerships keep feeling the pinch from places like CarMax, they are going to increasingly borrow strategies from them.
It's a recipe for decline over the long run. For example, after the shenanigans the dealer pulled in my previous anecdote, I take my car to an independent repair shop, not the dealer.
Congrats! For being shortsighted enough to trade the (possibility) of a couple hundred bucks in insurance commissions for my trust, you lost a long term source of revenue. 👏
posted by jeremias at 11:15 AM on August 31, 2022
I've never understood the expectation from dealers and consumers that you could just "buy a car today" and it should be whatever the dealer has in stock. It's probably the most expensive thing that most people own other than their home. No one buys a home based on a single walkthrough.
Once you get rid of all the rent-seeking dealerships full of salesmen on commission and land to hold all these cars, the average price should drop. And I don't have a problem waiting six months, paying the same price as everyone else, to get the car in exactly the configuration and color that I want.
I went with a friend to buy a car and one of the first things he said was "I have to buy a car today!" and I audibly groaned.
posted by meowzilla at 11:29 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Once you get rid of all the rent-seeking dealerships full of salesmen on commission and land to hold all these cars, the average price should drop. And I don't have a problem waiting six months, paying the same price as everyone else, to get the car in exactly the configuration and color that I want.
I went with a friend to buy a car and one of the first things he said was "I have to buy a car today!" and I audibly groaned.
posted by meowzilla at 11:29 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel conflicted typing this out loud, but my nephew went from car sales to cryptocurrency
I love him, but there's something so sketchy about it all and I'll never forget talking to his younger brother as he described the brief period he worked with him in the used car sales world and he had to bail, he did not have the stomach for it. I suppose there are good dealerships and decent sales people out there, but man the odds really work against that.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:39 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I love him, but there's something so sketchy about it all and I'll never forget talking to his younger brother as he described the brief period he worked with him in the used car sales world and he had to bail, he did not have the stomach for it. I suppose there are good dealerships and decent sales people out there, but man the odds really work against that.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:39 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
From the manufacturer's side, the biggest value-add the dealerships (or supermarkets) provide is their proximity to the customer - in terms of knowledge of local buying habits.
If car manufacturers want to know what local buying habits are, they should take a hint from Nike and Tesla and other brands to just.. sell things to people a la direct-to-consumer.
The idea that it's more efficient to trust the numbers from a dealer that's incentivized to sell what they have, not what the customer wants, instead of the same customer going directly to the manufacturer and putting down a small deposit on exactly what they want, is nonsense.
posted by meowzilla at 11:41 AM on August 31, 2022
If car manufacturers want to know what local buying habits are, they should take a hint from Nike and Tesla and other brands to just.. sell things to people a la direct-to-consumer.
The idea that it's more efficient to trust the numbers from a dealer that's incentivized to sell what they have, not what the customer wants, instead of the same customer going directly to the manufacturer and putting down a small deposit on exactly what they want, is nonsense.
posted by meowzilla at 11:41 AM on August 31, 2022
My wife and I have had good experiences at Toyota Lake City (twice) and Mercedes of Seattle. My wife likes the warranty and known history of the vehicle she's buying and they are, for a dealership, pretty low pressure and not pushy.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 11:41 AM on August 31, 2022
posted by Pantengliopoli at 11:41 AM on August 31, 2022
Sounds like the Costco program is similar to how I bought a vehicle years ago - my credit union at the time had a car buying program where I never interacted with the dealer at all. I went through the credit union for everything (including financing) for a flat fee and they did it as a fleet purchase or something. I even picked it up at the credit union. I had previously gone to some dealerships to sit in similar vehicles to make sure I fit comfortably (I am fat and also short) but that was the extent of my dealer interactions.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 11:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
No one buys a home based on a single walkthrough.
Umm, do they not? I mean, they might walk through more than one house, in the same way a buyer might test drive more than one car, but it is pretty rare in my experience that anyone walks through the house they will eventually buy more than once. Hell, I bought the condo I'm currently living in based on someone else walking through it -- I didn't set foot in it until a week after it closed.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:23 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Umm, do they not? I mean, they might walk through more than one house, in the same way a buyer might test drive more than one car, but it is pretty rare in my experience that anyone walks through the house they will eventually buy more than once. Hell, I bought the condo I'm currently living in based on someone else walking through it -- I didn't set foot in it until a week after it closed.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:23 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
used cars are a lot more expensive than they were in the summer of 2020. Not as expensive as they were six months ago, but still dear.
CarMax also makes a lot of its money on financing, insurance, and warranties. They can afford to be skinny on the profit margin on the actual vehicle.
I hear what you're saying, but "My car" on their site is marked up by $4000 over what they are offering me. So I don't think they're being that skinny.
posted by parliboy at 12:32 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
CarMax also makes a lot of its money on financing, insurance, and warranties. They can afford to be skinny on the profit margin on the actual vehicle.
I hear what you're saying, but "My car" on their site is marked up by $4000 over what they are offering me. So I don't think they're being that skinny.
posted by parliboy at 12:32 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
My last car buying experience, right around a year ago so definitely in the midst of the supply chain shortage, was actually one of the more pleasant experiences I’ve had with a dealership. I bought used, and there are enough online resources to where I was confident I was buying at a fair price based on current market conditions (read: probably higher than the same car would have gone for a year or two earlier, but a comparably good price at the moment. On the flip side, was able to get way more selling my used Hyundai in preparation for this then I would have received a year or two earlier.).
When I contacted the dealership there was definitely some amount of “When can we get you down to the lot?” initially, but once I made it clear that I was both a serious buyer and also not going to set foot in the dealership until the price and financing were finalized the salesperson I was dealing with was very good about taking care of everything up front, including offering by far the lowest interest rate I’ve ever had for a car purchase. The only arguably negative experience I had was dealing with the finance guy heavily pushing GAP insurance and a bunch of other nonsense I didn’t want or need, but as long as you are comfortable saying “No” a lot that wasn’t a huge deal. I think I was in and out within an hour and that included the test drive, which has to be a first.
posted by The Gooch at 1:20 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
When I contacted the dealership there was definitely some amount of “When can we get you down to the lot?” initially, but once I made it clear that I was both a serious buyer and also not going to set foot in the dealership until the price and financing were finalized the salesperson I was dealing with was very good about taking care of everything up front, including offering by far the lowest interest rate I’ve ever had for a car purchase. The only arguably negative experience I had was dealing with the finance guy heavily pushing GAP insurance and a bunch of other nonsense I didn’t want or need, but as long as you are comfortable saying “No” a lot that wasn’t a huge deal. I think I was in and out within an hour and that included the test drive, which has to be a first.
posted by The Gooch at 1:20 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've never understood the expectation from dealers and consumers that you could just "buy a car today" and it should be whatever the dealer has in stock
A lot of people don't have 3, 4, 6, 10 months time to wait for a car. They need one now or at the latest within a week because their current car was wrote off in an accident, stolen, needs a major repair, taken by their spouse in their seperation or they don't even have a car and need it for a job or something. I've had a couple dozen cars over the years that weren't transitory (bought solely to resell) and maybe 30% of them weren't bought when I was under a time constraint.
posted by Mitheral at 1:37 PM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
A lot of people don't have 3, 4, 6, 10 months time to wait for a car. They need one now or at the latest within a week because their current car was wrote off in an accident, stolen, needs a major repair, taken by their spouse in their seperation or they don't even have a car and need it for a job or something. I've had a couple dozen cars over the years that weren't transitory (bought solely to resell) and maybe 30% of them weren't bought when I was under a time constraint.
posted by Mitheral at 1:37 PM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
The Tesla drivers (and I am also one) upthread are careful to disclaim El*n specifically, but I can see a more general argument against the Tesla model that it's better to have a millionaire car dealer in each state than a single multi-billionaire. I guess the legacy automakers are largely owned by pension investment funds now, so maybe that's less relevant to them.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:42 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:42 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Past and present Honda Fit owners, represent! My 2015’s dash warning lights lit up like a Xmas tree about a year ago, and it sadly needed all four fuel injectors replaced for ~$1600 (out of warranty). The closest dealership was two hours away, and they needed it for a few days. They were competent and professional, and didn’t pad the bill with any additional repairs, but my opinion of the car suffered.
However, I received a surprise official letter from American Honda Motor Co. a few months ago blaming the injector failure on a manufacturing error, and that I was eligible for a full repair refund. I applied for it online, was approved, and received a check in a week or two without any hassle. A polite Honda customer service agent even called to confirm my mailing address.
This was the first time I received a repair reimbursement from any car dealer or manufacturer, and it also restored my opinion of the company and the car.
posted by cenoxo at 2:48 PM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
However, I received a surprise official letter from American Honda Motor Co. a few months ago blaming the injector failure on a manufacturing error, and that I was eligible for a full repair refund. I applied for it online, was approved, and received a check in a week or two without any hassle. A polite Honda customer service agent even called to confirm my mailing address.
This was the first time I received a repair reimbursement from any car dealer or manufacturer, and it also restored my opinion of the company and the car.
posted by cenoxo at 2:48 PM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
I am also on Team Honda Fit. That's a heck of a stand-up thing for Honda to do. One of the pistons in my old Mini Cooper essentially disintegrated and I ended up having to drop a new engine into it, with no extra love from BMW.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:06 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 4:06 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
(Oh, and I called my insurance carrier and got the approval within 10 minutes even though it was 7PM, so much for that 24 hour waiting period.)
For the record, every auto insurance policy I've ever had that included comprehensive and collision had a provision that covered any new purchase or replacement vehicle automatically for at least a week. I did once have to call State Farm at like 8 o'clock on a Tuesday because CarMax insisted that they fax some paperwork over. That was weird to me because in Oklahoma nobody gave the least amount of a shit, they didn't even ask to see proof of insurance.
posted by wierdo at 4:30 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
For the record, every auto insurance policy I've ever had that included comprehensive and collision had a provision that covered any new purchase or replacement vehicle automatically for at least a week. I did once have to call State Farm at like 8 o'clock on a Tuesday because CarMax insisted that they fax some paperwork over. That was weird to me because in Oklahoma nobody gave the least amount of a shit, they didn't even ask to see proof of insurance.
posted by wierdo at 4:30 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I just bought a Honda Fit a few years ago. I drove Saturns before that (and I drove them into the ground. I hope that by the time it is ready to get put out to pasture, I will be too.
posted by notoriety public at 4:54 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by notoriety public at 4:54 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
My other half works in the mechanics department of a Toyota dealership in Pennsylvania, USA. They had a guy from New York state FLY in to buy a truck from them. It seems that a dealership closer to where the buyer lived listed the truck he wanted at $10,000 over the MSRP, while my other half's dealership only listed it for $3,000 over. He drove that truck home to NY.
A coworker this weekend was looking over one of the new Broncos while waiting for his wife who was dropping her car off for service. Right on the price list on the vehicle, it stated that the Bronco was $70,000, and part of that was $24,000 DEALER MARKUP. He was flabbergasted that it was right there, laid out in the open, how much over the sticker they were charging.
posted by annieb at 5:13 PM on August 31, 2022
A coworker this weekend was looking over one of the new Broncos while waiting for his wife who was dropping her car off for service. Right on the price list on the vehicle, it stated that the Bronco was $70,000, and part of that was $24,000 DEALER MARKUP. He was flabbergasted that it was right there, laid out in the open, how much over the sticker they were charging.
posted by annieb at 5:13 PM on August 31, 2022
I don't really have a problem with that sort of thing though of course manufacturers hate it. If those cars are pulling that kind of price than selling it for MSRP is just giving $24K to the guy who buys it and flips it in the next couple of weeks. GM is trying to fight that sort of thing by voiding warranties on resales[SLYT] within one year and putting flippers on a "Do Not Sell" list.
posted by Mitheral at 5:40 PM on August 31, 2022
posted by Mitheral at 5:40 PM on August 31, 2022
However, I received a surprise official letter from American Honda Motor Co. a few months ago blaming the injector failure on a manufacturing error, and that I was eligible for a full repair refund. I applied for it online, was approved, and received a check in a week or two without any hassle. A polite Honda customer service agent even called to confirm my mailing address.
Had the exact same thing happen to me when the axle broke on my 2009. Even though it was a decade out of warranty, Honda paid for it and paid for an inspection of the other ones.
posted by octothorpe at 5:54 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Had the exact same thing happen to me when the axle broke on my 2009. Even though it was a decade out of warranty, Honda paid for it and paid for an inspection of the other ones.
posted by octothorpe at 5:54 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't really have a problem with that sort of thing though of course manufacturers hate it.
I mean, it would be substantially less problematic if manufacturers were allowed to sell direct to consumer, instead of being legally barred from it:
posted by pwnguin at 6:51 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean, it would be substantially less problematic if manufacturers were allowed to sell direct to consumer, instead of being legally barred from it:
"State legislatures passed franchise laws — and continue to overwhelmingly support franchise laws — to separate car sales from manufacturing, prevent monopoly pricing by factories, promote competition in auto sales and service, and keep jobs and investment local," says NADA Vice President of Communications Jared Allen.Like, imagine if the only way to buy an iPhone was from one of those repair kiosks at the mall. (Or a Circuit City 🪦).
posted by pwnguin at 6:51 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
We are Team Fit as well! I bought ours after searching drummer forums for compact cars that would lug a full five-piece drum kit.
We also looked at some other hatchbacks, the boxy Kia model and late-model Mazda 3s, but nothing sucks up cargo like a Fit in two-seat configuration. It's a clown car for drums and you could've shot a Honda commercial the first time I rolled up to a jam session in it.
And +1 to enjoying car buying. If you want to get more practice at being self assertive, shop for a car. First time I ever yelled at someone in public was at the lot manager who chased me to my car one night after his minion had pushed me one step too far. Feels good.
posted by Sauce Trough at 7:35 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
We also looked at some other hatchbacks, the boxy Kia model and late-model Mazda 3s, but nothing sucks up cargo like a Fit in two-seat configuration. It's a clown car for drums and you could've shot a Honda commercial the first time I rolled up to a jam session in it.
And +1 to enjoying car buying. If you want to get more practice at being self assertive, shop for a car. First time I ever yelled at someone in public was at the lot manager who chased me to my car one night after his minion had pushed me one step too far. Feels good.
posted by Sauce Trough at 7:35 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've been in some horrid car dealerships. I bought a few cars (a couple of them new) before the internet became a thing. I remember feeling like I had been taken advantage of, and eventually coming around to not beating myself up about it too much because I was inexperienced at buying cars, and was up against the dealership staff that practiced these manipulative techniques on a daily basis. Going 7 to 10 years between vehicle purchases wasn't helping my learning curve, but damned if I was going to subject myself to the car buying experience more frequently when the depreciation hit was so big.
The internet, and an interesting book about negotiation changed things for me. I'm still on the buy it and keep it for a long time plan. But now I have resources to determine a good price, won't go to dealerships that I know or have heard do the crappy things we have all heard of, and perhaps most importantly, won't hesitate to walk away from negotiations. Fortunately, I have not been it the position where I absolutely *needed* a car that day. I wouldn't go quite so far as to say I enjoy car buying (the hunt is fun, though), but I don't dread it like I used to.
posted by coppertop at 8:01 PM on August 31, 2022
The internet, and an interesting book about negotiation changed things for me. I'm still on the buy it and keep it for a long time plan. But now I have resources to determine a good price, won't go to dealerships that I know or have heard do the crappy things we have all heard of, and perhaps most importantly, won't hesitate to walk away from negotiations. Fortunately, I have not been it the position where I absolutely *needed* a car that day. I wouldn't go quite so far as to say I enjoy car buying (the hunt is fun, though), but I don't dread it like I used to.
posted by coppertop at 8:01 PM on August 31, 2022
No, you can't offer prostitutes as an incentive. I
On the scale of sketchy things that dealerships have done, this wouldn't even rate that high.
I don't really have a problem with that sort of thing though of course manufacturers hate it.
I wouldn't mind as much if it was Ford making that extra $24k because they scored a home run with their new design, but it would make my skin crawl to pay a bunch extra to a middleman.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:28 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
On the scale of sketchy things that dealerships have done, this wouldn't even rate that high.
I don't really have a problem with that sort of thing though of course manufacturers hate it.
I wouldn't mind as much if it was Ford making that extra $24k because they scored a home run with their new design, but it would make my skin crawl to pay a bunch extra to a middleman.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:28 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Surprised only a few people mentioned Saturns. People seemed to love them when they came out, not least because they came with a real price, no haggling, no questions. I know that was part of why they weren't allowed to live, but I still find it astonishing that no one really protested when they went.
posted by Mchelly at 10:58 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 10:58 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Amazing how many comments here seem unaware that low mileage used cars and recent lease returns are currently priced *within spitting distance of MSRP on brand new cars* for anything you'd want to buy. The old logic about new car depreciation being a sucker's choice simply doesn't apply at the moment. Many car buying experts say outright that you're better off buying new if you can find a new car at or near MSRP.
I'm not paying $20,000 to CarMax (the easy experience comes at a *huge* sucker price markup, fine if that's worth it to you) for a 2018 Kia Forte when a new one is $23k list or even $26k with a dealer upcharge. That difference buys you a warranty and several additional years of ownership on the back end, or less depreciated resale value. At the moment that new car basically isn't depreciating nearly as quickly as it did in the before times. Some very late model used cars are even selling for more than MSRP for the same car new because the new ones can't be had.
Yes it's hard to find a new car you want at MSRP or close to it. But unless you need a specific color or trim it can be done for many models that aren't selling as well as the most desired models. And yea at some point depreciation curves will normalize or even accelerate for ICE cars, but just as true for your 3 year old $20k Kia as for you 1 year old $26k Kia.
The market is nuts right now. It won't stay that way forever. If you can possibly limp what you've got for another year that's the best choice. But if you absolutely need a car, and can afford it, plenty of very smart and rational people are calculating that a new car is a better value unless you can get a rare deal on a privately sold used one.
I see 4 year old civics and RAV4s on CarMax selling for very close to MSRP on brand new models. That is because you can't get either one at MSRP right now. Cars I would have called "beaters" -- 10+ years old with 150k miles or more -- are $10k right now.
Also the term "stealership" is in no way recent. I heard it growing up in the 1970s. There has never been a time that they were honest or respected.
posted by spitbull at 4:07 AM on September 1, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm not paying $20,000 to CarMax (the easy experience comes at a *huge* sucker price markup, fine if that's worth it to you) for a 2018 Kia Forte when a new one is $23k list or even $26k with a dealer upcharge. That difference buys you a warranty and several additional years of ownership on the back end, or less depreciated resale value. At the moment that new car basically isn't depreciating nearly as quickly as it did in the before times. Some very late model used cars are even selling for more than MSRP for the same car new because the new ones can't be had.
Yes it's hard to find a new car you want at MSRP or close to it. But unless you need a specific color or trim it can be done for many models that aren't selling as well as the most desired models. And yea at some point depreciation curves will normalize or even accelerate for ICE cars, but just as true for your 3 year old $20k Kia as for you 1 year old $26k Kia.
The market is nuts right now. It won't stay that way forever. If you can possibly limp what you've got for another year that's the best choice. But if you absolutely need a car, and can afford it, plenty of very smart and rational people are calculating that a new car is a better value unless you can get a rare deal on a privately sold used one.
I see 4 year old civics and RAV4s on CarMax selling for very close to MSRP on brand new models. That is because you can't get either one at MSRP right now. Cars I would have called "beaters" -- 10+ years old with 150k miles or more -- are $10k right now.
Also the term "stealership" is in no way recent. I heard it growing up in the 1970s. There has never been a time that they were honest or respected.
posted by spitbull at 4:07 AM on September 1, 2022 [6 favorites]
I had a good experience with buying a car online from Carvana. It did involve doing a ton of research first to figure out exactly what make and model we wanted, then figure out the manufacturing years we were looking for and what the trim options were, but then it was mostly just watching the site to see if a car that fit came up. Once it did we reserved it and then scrambled a bit to finalize the insurance and financing with our credit union. They drove the car up from Florida to our apartment and we had 7 days to test-drive it, get it inspected, etc, with the option to send it back at the end of that time. No dealership, no haggling, no weird add-ons.
Everything worked out fine, and I'd recommend this to people who have the time to do lots of online research and have a good idea of what they're looking for already. (There's a whole subreddit around the site too, and there are a few horror stories but it seems like mostly good reports on balance.)
posted by whir at 6:31 AM on September 1, 2022
Everything worked out fine, and I'd recommend this to people who have the time to do lots of online research and have a good idea of what they're looking for already. (There's a whole subreddit around the site too, and there are a few horror stories but it seems like mostly good reports on balance.)
posted by whir at 6:31 AM on September 1, 2022
(I'll add that this was in the before times, right at the beginning of the pandemic, and spitbull's comment makes sense of me in terms of the relative value of buying a new car at the moment. We got a two year old model of a relatively expensive car and saved roughly 12K over what it would cost new, but I'm not sure that we could find that kind of deal today.)
posted by whir at 6:40 AM on September 1, 2022
posted by whir at 6:40 AM on September 1, 2022
I was in the market for a new car earlier this year, and my experience matches spitbull, there is a ridiculous premium (at least in my area) for late model used cars, you're basically gonna pay MSRP if you try to buy a 1-2 year old car with low mileage from a dealer. Even 3-4 year old cars are not seeing a steep depreciation at dealerships. The private market is a little better, but not anything close to where it was pre-pandemic. I ended up buying a beater from family in the hopes of putting off a newer purchase for another year or two.
Anyway, the whole "car loses 1/3 of its value when it drives off the lot" hasn't been true for ages, and it's even less true now. Not saying that there's anything wrong with buying used, modern cars last so much longer than they did 30 years ago that owning a 10-year old car with 150k miles isn't a nightmare anymore. But buying late-model low-mileage cars from dealers isn't a particularly good deal anymore. It may make sense for someone who needs to have a car in their driveway in the next few days, but for anyone who can wait, I don't see a benefit over finding a dealer willing to sell at or near MSRP and putting in an order for the exact car you want.
posted by skewed at 7:04 AM on September 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
Anyway, the whole "car loses 1/3 of its value when it drives off the lot" hasn't been true for ages, and it's even less true now. Not saying that there's anything wrong with buying used, modern cars last so much longer than they did 30 years ago that owning a 10-year old car with 150k miles isn't a nightmare anymore. But buying late-model low-mileage cars from dealers isn't a particularly good deal anymore. It may make sense for someone who needs to have a car in their driveway in the next few days, but for anyone who can wait, I don't see a benefit over finding a dealer willing to sell at or near MSRP and putting in an order for the exact car you want.
posted by skewed at 7:04 AM on September 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
Amazing how many comments here seem unaware that low mileage used cars and recent lease returns are currently priced *within spitting distance of MSRP on brand new cars* for anything you'd want to buy.
I think the market is starting to soften, but yes, advice that worked two or three years ago simply doesn't apply right now. I bought a used car three years ago; I just looked at values and three years later, with more than twice the mileage, it is worth more than it was when I bought it; moreover, assuming you found a MSRP deal, it would cover a bit over 2/3 of the value of a brand new model of the same car, which is nuts. The usual spread between used and new prices just isn't happening right now, and people who have an urgent need for a car are getting hosed because their choice is to pay high for used, or likely pay add-ons above MSRP for new.
I do think things are slowly softening, though -- I just got a marketing email from a dealer I once used for servicing and they are advertising heavily that they never sell above MSRP. So there's at least some competitive pressure starting to happen.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:56 AM on September 1, 2022
I think the market is starting to soften, but yes, advice that worked two or three years ago simply doesn't apply right now. I bought a used car three years ago; I just looked at values and three years later, with more than twice the mileage, it is worth more than it was when I bought it; moreover, assuming you found a MSRP deal, it would cover a bit over 2/3 of the value of a brand new model of the same car, which is nuts. The usual spread between used and new prices just isn't happening right now, and people who have an urgent need for a car are getting hosed because their choice is to pay high for used, or likely pay add-ons above MSRP for new.
I do think things are slowly softening, though -- I just got a marketing email from a dealer I once used for servicing and they are advertising heavily that they never sell above MSRP. So there's at least some competitive pressure starting to happen.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:56 AM on September 1, 2022
It is remarkable how much longer cars last now than they did when I was younger. I learned to drive in 1981 and then a 13 year old car would have been a faded, rusty, broken-down beater at best and you'd probably pay $200 for it. Now, my almost 14 year old Honda Fit works perfectly. It sailed through PA's notoriously strict inspection last month with zero defects and basically runs and looks the same as it did new. Car design changes much slower now too so a car made a decade and a half ago doesn't really look very dated.
posted by octothorpe at 9:09 AM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 9:09 AM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
I agree there are signs of market softening, likely more due to rising interest rates than supply chains evening out. Dealers have also tasted the fruit of premium pricing and will take a while to unlearn that lesson.
And yes cars last a lot longer now than 15 or 20 years ago. But even so, my 2014 Mazda3 was worth about $8000 with 90k miles two years ago. It's now two years older and has 120k miles and I can get $10-11k for it. I love the car. There's no way on earth I would ever pay $10k for it at its current age and mileage. I plan to give it to my kid when I can find something I actually want at MSRP to replace it.
It runs great though. I did the math recently and it has cost me an average of less than $700 a year to maintain it to 120k miles, including tires and battery and oil, a wheel bearing, two brake calipers, two brake jobs, shocks (still needs struts done), headlights, filters, and a coolant flush. About due for injector cleaning and plug and wires. Granted I do some stuff myself, it's been an incredibly cheap car to run for 8 years and it still gets the same 40mpg on the highway it did when new, burns zero oil, handles nearly as good as new (with no front end repairs yet, although I'm looking at the control arm bushings with suspicion lately).... a few odd things have gone wrong (window actuator I changed myself, somehow the seatbelt warning chime and light for the driver's seat has failed, and I can't find the circuit issue yet). Otherwise it runs like a top. Never stranded me or failed to start. A pleasure to drive. Even fun to hoon.
But it has 120k miles, about a third of those being tough big city miles. It's gonna cost more to keep running it to 200k than it did to get to 120k. That's the nature of the mechanical beast. It hasn't rusted much yet, but it goes through salty New England winters and rust will come. Cars are better than they were, but they're still metal machines with moving parts. A brand new one lists around $28k in similar trim, but they're hard to find at MSRP.
If I assume the extra 18k will buy me the same 8 years of extremely hassle free low cost operation as I've gotten out of this one, that works out to $2300 a year in depreciation cost, plus add 700 a year to maintain it. $3000 a year is my ballpark idea of "reasonable" for the cost of owning a reliable, efficient, hassle free car. Exactly. It's a no brainer when the old car is worth 20% more than it was two years ago, and especially assuming the reverse depreciation phase is coming to an end soon, to get a new one or equivalent model at MSRP. If you can.
posted by spitbull at 5:44 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
And yes cars last a lot longer now than 15 or 20 years ago. But even so, my 2014 Mazda3 was worth about $8000 with 90k miles two years ago. It's now two years older and has 120k miles and I can get $10-11k for it. I love the car. There's no way on earth I would ever pay $10k for it at its current age and mileage. I plan to give it to my kid when I can find something I actually want at MSRP to replace it.
It runs great though. I did the math recently and it has cost me an average of less than $700 a year to maintain it to 120k miles, including tires and battery and oil, a wheel bearing, two brake calipers, two brake jobs, shocks (still needs struts done), headlights, filters, and a coolant flush. About due for injector cleaning and plug and wires. Granted I do some stuff myself, it's been an incredibly cheap car to run for 8 years and it still gets the same 40mpg on the highway it did when new, burns zero oil, handles nearly as good as new (with no front end repairs yet, although I'm looking at the control arm bushings with suspicion lately).... a few odd things have gone wrong (window actuator I changed myself, somehow the seatbelt warning chime and light for the driver's seat has failed, and I can't find the circuit issue yet). Otherwise it runs like a top. Never stranded me or failed to start. A pleasure to drive. Even fun to hoon.
But it has 120k miles, about a third of those being tough big city miles. It's gonna cost more to keep running it to 200k than it did to get to 120k. That's the nature of the mechanical beast. It hasn't rusted much yet, but it goes through salty New England winters and rust will come. Cars are better than they were, but they're still metal machines with moving parts. A brand new one lists around $28k in similar trim, but they're hard to find at MSRP.
If I assume the extra 18k will buy me the same 8 years of extremely hassle free low cost operation as I've gotten out of this one, that works out to $2300 a year in depreciation cost, plus add 700 a year to maintain it. $3000 a year is my ballpark idea of "reasonable" for the cost of owning a reliable, efficient, hassle free car. Exactly. It's a no brainer when the old car is worth 20% more than it was two years ago, and especially assuming the reverse depreciation phase is coming to an end soon, to get a new one or equivalent model at MSRP. If you can.
posted by spitbull at 5:44 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
(To be fair my estimated depreciation cost is based on the high current value of an 8 year old 120k used car... unlikely to be the case 8 years from now especially for an ICE vehicle, which I expect will depreciate faster than historical average as BEV takes over the market....BEV does not fit my use case yet, so I'm shopping hybrids, while thinking maybe I'll wait out the market for another year, even assuming my current car recovers its depreciation momentum by then, and reevaluate BEV vs hybrid at that point.)
posted by spitbull at 5:58 AM on September 2, 2022
posted by spitbull at 5:58 AM on September 2, 2022
I've never understood the expectation from dealers and consumers that you could just "buy a car today" and it should be whatever the dealer has in stock. It's probably the most expensive thing that most people own other than their home. No one buys a home based on a single walkthrough.
That’s not quite as difficult-to-understand as folks who feel they need to replace their car if it gets anywhere near 100,000 miles on the clock, even if it’s running like a top. Modern cars, from any maker, are good for well over 100k, and most can easily go to 200k as long as you keep-up with basic maintenance.
This should be doubly true for EVs, given the lack of mechanical parts. YMMV, of course. Lemons will always be with us.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:40 AM on September 2, 2022
That’s not quite as difficult-to-understand as folks who feel they need to replace their car if it gets anywhere near 100,000 miles on the clock, even if it’s running like a top. Modern cars, from any maker, are good for well over 100k, and most can easily go to 200k as long as you keep-up with basic maintenance.
This should be doubly true for EVs, given the lack of mechanical parts. YMMV, of course. Lemons will always be with us.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:40 AM on September 2, 2022
I still find it astonishing that no one really protested when they went.
Nobody protested because by the end they were just the same cars sold on other GM lots under different names and half the dealers weren't doing the fixed price thing anymore. Everything that made them different had already been stripped away.
posted by wierdo at 7:26 AM on September 2, 2022
Nobody protested because by the end they were just the same cars sold on other GM lots under different names and half the dealers weren't doing the fixed price thing anymore. Everything that made them different had already been stripped away.
posted by wierdo at 7:26 AM on September 2, 2022
The old logic about new car depreciation being a sucker's choice simply doesn't apply at the moment.
Even before the pandemic, at least with some desirable models like Subaru Outbacks, a 2-3 year old used model would have 30K+ miles on it but would only save you $2-3K compared to a new one. Unless you were really price sensitive, that many miles of wear for that little savings is a bad trade-off.
posted by Candleman at 11:16 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Even before the pandemic, at least with some desirable models like Subaru Outbacks, a 2-3 year old used model would have 30K+ miles on it but would only save you $2-3K compared to a new one. Unless you were really price sensitive, that many miles of wear for that little savings is a bad trade-off.
posted by Candleman at 11:16 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
25 years ago a dealership tried to rip me off for my first and only brand new car. I ordered the car I wanted and we agreed on a price, all by fax. All that remained was picking it up and signing papers.
When I arrived at the dealership, they said, "Here's your car!" except that it was a manual transmission. I had ordered an automatic, and that was noted on the fax with the price. They said, "Oh no, we can't sell you an automatic for that price." I showed them the paperwork. They were unmoved. Too bad, so sad. My choices were 1) buy the car I did not want, or 2) go home new-car-less.
I came up with a third option: Get me the car we agreed on at the price we agreed on, or I will walk around your lot and tell every prospective customer how you're trying to rip me off. I'm self-employed and I've got all day. I can even come back tomorrow if I feel like it.
"But we don't have the car you want!" they said. Not my problem, I said. Call other dealerships, find one, and get it delivered. Did I mention that I've got all day?
I had my car within 40 minutes. They were so flustered that someone called their bluff they forgot to ask for the down payment. (I paid it later.) The car came with a deluxe trim package plus cruise control, neither of which I had ordered. They were so desperate to get me off their lot they didn't care. It's a great car and I am still driving it.
posted by caryatid at 4:18 PM on September 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
When I arrived at the dealership, they said, "Here's your car!" except that it was a manual transmission. I had ordered an automatic, and that was noted on the fax with the price. They said, "Oh no, we can't sell you an automatic for that price." I showed them the paperwork. They were unmoved. Too bad, so sad. My choices were 1) buy the car I did not want, or 2) go home new-car-less.
I came up with a third option: Get me the car we agreed on at the price we agreed on, or I will walk around your lot and tell every prospective customer how you're trying to rip me off. I'm self-employed and I've got all day. I can even come back tomorrow if I feel like it.
"But we don't have the car you want!" they said. Not my problem, I said. Call other dealerships, find one, and get it delivered. Did I mention that I've got all day?
I had my car within 40 minutes. They were so flustered that someone called their bluff they forgot to ask for the down payment. (I paid it later.) The car came with a deluxe trim package plus cruise control, neither of which I had ordered. They were so desperate to get me off their lot they didn't care. It's a great car and I am still driving it.
posted by caryatid at 4:18 PM on September 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
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Dealerships do more to harm society than just selling overpriced cars, and there's no reason to keep a system in place which benefits them.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:45 AM on August 31, 2022 [36 favorites]