Chile Says ‘No’ to Left-Leaning Constitution After 3 Years of Debate
September 5, 2022 11:40 AM Subscribe
Chile Says ‘No’ to Left-Leaning Constitution After 3 Years of Debate [New York Times] The proposed changes had looked to remake one of the most conservative countries in Latin America into one of the world’s most left-leaning societies, but Chileans decided that went too far.
Chile’s rejection of populism is an example for the world [Financial Times]
Chile’s rejection of populism is an example for the world [Financial Times]
The Proposed Text. Google translate appears to do a reasonably good job, though I'm not fluent enough in Spanish to know what nuance may be lost.
posted by tclark at 11:55 AM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tclark at 11:55 AM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wow, that financial times article is disgusting.
posted by simmering octagon at 12:05 PM on September 5, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by simmering octagon at 12:05 PM on September 5, 2022 [25 favorites]
You guys with your constitutions.
posted by Comfy Shoes at 12:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Comfy Shoes at 12:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Neoliberals rushing into to protect their Pinochet free-market fiefdom. Hashem forbid society should be owned by workers and not venture capitalists.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [19 favorites]
Delayed Gratification has a great article from earlier this year about the election of Boric, the process of drafting this new constitution, and (to put it mildly) the scepticism from some indigenous groups towards its approach to their right to self-determination. The NYT piece suggests that those sections were also (perhaps unsurprisingly) unpopular with the political right. A tough nut to crack.
posted by wjt at 12:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by wjt at 12:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
Wow, that financial times article is disgusting.
damned right. I have to pay to even read it.
anybody got a summary?
posted by philip-random at 12:45 PM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ah, what a bummer. I only heard about this referendum yesterday, but I was hoping for the best.
posted by rhizome at 12:47 PM on September 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 12:47 PM on September 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
anybody got a summary?
archive version
it's not remotely 'disgusting', but is instead making the same point as the electorate - criticising the government for going for a revolutionary rather than evolutionary constitution.
encouraged (and envious, typing from the sunlit uplands of brexit isle) to see the conclusion that "Within hours of the referendum result last night, Chileans across most of the political spectrum accepted the result as fair, made conciliatory statements and began to build consensus for a more moderate new charter. Even Boric accepted the need for a document “that unites us as a country”."
posted by inire at 12:58 PM on September 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
archive version
it's not remotely 'disgusting', but is instead making the same point as the electorate - criticising the government for going for a revolutionary rather than evolutionary constitution.
encouraged (and envious, typing from the sunlit uplands of brexit isle) to see the conclusion that "Within hours of the referendum result last night, Chileans across most of the political spectrum accepted the result as fair, made conciliatory statements and began to build consensus for a more moderate new charter. Even Boric accepted the need for a document “that unites us as a country”."
posted by inire at 12:58 PM on September 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
Wow, that financial times article is disgusting.
Let's just say, it has, unsurprisingly, a very right wing slant.
posted by Bee'sWing at 12:59 PM on September 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
Let's just say, it has, unsurprisingly, a very right wing slant.
posted by Bee'sWing at 12:59 PM on September 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
Neoliberals rushing into to protect their Pinochet free-market fiefdom. Hashem forbid society should be owned by workers and not venture capitalists.
I'm extremely disinclined to paint 62% of the Chilean electorate as stooges for Pinochet, or being in thrall to venture capitalists. Saying a referendum with this lopsided of a result is an indication that Chileans were either hoodwinked, stupid, evil, or all three is something I don't think anyone here should continue implying.
A landslide-level majority of Chileans found enough things objectionable about the 388-article proposed constitution that they voted against it. I'm not inclined to second-guess a result that strong. It's clear that Chile is intent on going back to the drawing board and trying again, and I support that.
posted by tclark at 1:04 PM on September 5, 2022 [32 favorites]
I'm extremely disinclined to paint 62% of the Chilean electorate as stooges for Pinochet, or being in thrall to venture capitalists. Saying a referendum with this lopsided of a result is an indication that Chileans were either hoodwinked, stupid, evil, or all three is something I don't think anyone here should continue implying.
A landslide-level majority of Chileans found enough things objectionable about the 388-article proposed constitution that they voted against it. I'm not inclined to second-guess a result that strong. It's clear that Chile is intent on going back to the drawing board and trying again, and I support that.
posted by tclark at 1:04 PM on September 5, 2022 [32 favorites]
or, “come back Gen. Pinochet, all is forgiven”
posted by acb at 1:05 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 1:05 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Can’t go left in General Pinochet’s Cadillac…
posted by Windopaene at 1:07 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 1:07 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
How many times has a country adopted a whole Constitution by popular vote? The U.S. Constitution was adopted via an indirect method. I'm having trouble imagining such a complex document being ratified by popular vote.
posted by jzb at 1:16 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jzb at 1:16 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
perhaps we could wait for just a few more comments before the inevitable us election derail
posted by inire at 1:17 PM on September 5, 2022 [36 favorites]
posted by inire at 1:17 PM on September 5, 2022 [36 favorites]
That FT article is really something. TIL that populism is when a state is obliged by law to provide "health, education and housing", human rights, and environmental protections. Who knew.
I asked this in the free thread and would be grateful for insight from anyone in Chile or in contact with people from Chile: What are the things people most objected to in the constitution? Was it the indigenous rights parts, or other specific things, or was there just a general vague sense (organic? the result of propaganda campaigns?) that it was "too much"? What parts were popular?
Had there been a lot of attempts at outreach and consensus-building in the last year to try to expand support for the approach the new constitution was taking, or was it more of a "here, we finished it, now vote on it" thing?
If anyone knows, or has any recommendations for good Chilean news coverage or discussion sites (with some context about how they lean in general, since otherwise it can be hard to evaluate the content), I'd be really interested to learn more.
posted by trig at 1:38 PM on September 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
I asked this in the free thread and would be grateful for insight from anyone in Chile or in contact with people from Chile: What are the things people most objected to in the constitution? Was it the indigenous rights parts, or other specific things, or was there just a general vague sense (organic? the result of propaganda campaigns?) that it was "too much"? What parts were popular?
Had there been a lot of attempts at outreach and consensus-building in the last year to try to expand support for the approach the new constitution was taking, or was it more of a "here, we finished it, now vote on it" thing?
If anyone knows, or has any recommendations for good Chilean news coverage or discussion sites (with some context about how they lean in general, since otherwise it can be hard to evaluate the content), I'd be really interested to learn more.
posted by trig at 1:38 PM on September 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
I don't know if "landslide" is an appropriate description when voting was mandatory ($30 fine!).
posted by rhizome at 1:42 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:42 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Interesting how when it's the US that has bad election results for the left it's all because of bots and Russia but when it's Chile it's all "noo, actually the people wanted it"
Do you have any reports of Russia/bots in this case?
posted by AdamCSnider at 1:59 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Do you have any reports of Russia/bots in this case?
posted by AdamCSnider at 1:59 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wow, that financial times article is disgusting.
Are you telling me that an opinion column in a newspaper for bankers and businessmen wasn't behind a constitution which would have cost about 10% of GDP in additional government services and made mining copper and lithium more difficult?
This is a bit like reading the Morning Star's Davos coverage and getting upset that it's "all a bit bolshie".
Anyway, 80% of the electorate vote to get rid of the old constitution and then 62% voted against this. Seems like a pretty clear message to change something but not quite like this.
trig, according to my friends in Chile, there were three broad strands of opposition:
1) The creation of multiplurality and indigenous rights recognition, unfortunately particularly in parts of the country with land-use conflicts. How popular would a constitutional amendment that increased indigenous rights be in the US, which is a settler-colonial state like Chile?
2) A few culture-war type things, some of which were genuine conflicts with a population which is often culturally conservative and a few of which were bullshit ginned up by opponents.
3) A general discomfort that a broad national movement to get rid of a dictatorship era document had been used as basically an opportunity to put everything possible into a constitution. Even people who approved individually of many of the things that went in and who generally voted for it might have felt that it felt a little "wish listy" and might make the trade-offs required for governing quite difficult for future elected governments to make. There was a sense that the whole thing just got "overwhelming".
A fourth, which reflects the FT columnist's view that this was "populism" is that the constitution creates a set of obligations for government without saying how they should be funded. Increase taxes, clearly, but not everyone will want that. I've listed that one separately because while someone in Santiago mentioned it to me as something that other people might be worried about, he wasn't nor was the other person in Chile I've spoken to about this. So that one's a bit second-hand as to whether it really affected people's votes.
posted by atrazine at 2:19 PM on September 5, 2022 [40 favorites]
Are you telling me that an opinion column in a newspaper for bankers and businessmen wasn't behind a constitution which would have cost about 10% of GDP in additional government services and made mining copper and lithium more difficult?
This is a bit like reading the Morning Star's Davos coverage and getting upset that it's "all a bit bolshie".
Anyway, 80% of the electorate vote to get rid of the old constitution and then 62% voted against this. Seems like a pretty clear message to change something but not quite like this.
trig, according to my friends in Chile, there were three broad strands of opposition:
1) The creation of multiplurality and indigenous rights recognition, unfortunately particularly in parts of the country with land-use conflicts. How popular would a constitutional amendment that increased indigenous rights be in the US, which is a settler-colonial state like Chile?
2) A few culture-war type things, some of which were genuine conflicts with a population which is often culturally conservative and a few of which were bullshit ginned up by opponents.
3) A general discomfort that a broad national movement to get rid of a dictatorship era document had been used as basically an opportunity to put everything possible into a constitution. Even people who approved individually of many of the things that went in and who generally voted for it might have felt that it felt a little "wish listy" and might make the trade-offs required for governing quite difficult for future elected governments to make. There was a sense that the whole thing just got "overwhelming".
A fourth, which reflects the FT columnist's view that this was "populism" is that the constitution creates a set of obligations for government without saying how they should be funded. Increase taxes, clearly, but not everyone will want that. I've listed that one separately because while someone in Santiago mentioned it to me as something that other people might be worried about, he wasn't nor was the other person in Chile I've spoken to about this. So that one's a bit second-hand as to whether it really affected people's votes.
posted by atrazine at 2:19 PM on September 5, 2022 [40 favorites]
How many times has a country adopted a whole Constitution by popular vote? The U.S. Constitution was adopted via an indirect method. I'm having trouble imagining such a complex document being ratified by popular vote.
From this NYTimes article, written before the vote:
A rejection of the proposed constitution would be a huge historical exception. Over the past 230 years, 93 percent of the 179 national plebiscites on new constitutions have been accepted, according to an analysis by Zachary Elkins and Alex Hudson, two political scientists.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:30 PM on September 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
From this NYTimes article, written before the vote:
A rejection of the proposed constitution would be a huge historical exception. Over the past 230 years, 93 percent of the 179 national plebiscites on new constitutions have been accepted, according to an analysis by Zachary Elkins and Alex Hudson, two political scientists.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:30 PM on September 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Are you telling me that an opinion column in a newspaper for bankers and businessmen wasn't behind a constitution which would have cost about 10% of GDP in additional government services and made mining copper and lithium more difficult?
This is a bit like reading the Morning Star's Davos coverage and getting upset that it's "all a bit bolshie".
Just because behavior is expected doesn't make it any less disgusting.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:57 PM on September 5, 2022 [16 favorites]
This is a bit like reading the Morning Star's Davos coverage and getting upset that it's "all a bit bolshie".
Just because behavior is expected doesn't make it any less disgusting.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:57 PM on September 5, 2022 [16 favorites]
I don't know much about this. But it struck me that headlines didn't have the rejection that is included within - that balancing government with women is a bridge too far. Is what I couldn't help thinking reading about the results. Again, perhaps too simplistic, I don't know.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:02 PM on September 5, 2022
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:02 PM on September 5, 2022
Well the Chileans I know were ecstatic this failed. From what I could tell it was not a quality document, many ideas to offend many different constituencies. "duty to “promote the culinary and gastronomic heritage of the country." is probably a good goal but perhaps problematic in the core constitution of a country.
From what I can tell a lot of marxists voted no.
It's fine to be left leaning but unworkable mishmash laws are not helpful to anyone.
posted by sammyo at 5:16 PM on September 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
From what I can tell a lot of marxists voted no.
It's fine to be left leaning but unworkable mishmash laws are not helpful to anyone.
posted by sammyo at 5:16 PM on September 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
The Chileans I know are terrified at how fascists managed to manipulate people using fake news on US and China owned social media in order to stifle the first attempt at meaningful reform in decades that would have given LGBTQ+ people actual rights, guaranteed gender parity in government, legalized abortion, recognized first nations' right to exist, and stopped us being the only country in the world that treats water as property, with people literally shitting in plastic bags because they have no running water in view of lush avocado plantations owned by politicians.
But it also talked about culinary heritage, so it must have been 'problematic'.
But what do I know, I just live here.
posted by signal at 7:45 PM on September 5, 2022 [55 favorites]
But it also talked about culinary heritage, so it must have been 'problematic'.
But what do I know, I just live here.
posted by signal at 7:45 PM on September 5, 2022 [55 favorites]
Just a quiet vote for the FT as being generally quality journalism despite its provenance, and perhaps especially because it is paid for with expensive subscriptions. I no longer subscribe (beyond the free trial) because it's spendy, but they're a class operation. If you want to interpret in terms of their banker audience, the audience would be annoyed if their paper didn't comprehensively warn them of approaching pitchforks.
Don't be thrown off by the title. Their politics are often less neoliberal than eg The Guardian.
posted by grubby at 9:31 PM on September 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
Don't be thrown off by the title. Their politics are often less neoliberal than eg The Guardian.
posted by grubby at 9:31 PM on September 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
Agreed Grubby. I'd appreciate less knee jerk reactions from people who clearly aren't familiar with the paper.
I don't think this is terribly complicated. People tend to have a bias towards keeping things the same. This was a referendum with required voting, so people who would normally have abstained voted for no change.
This isn't the end, and it sounds like they'll go for a more generic round two that's less of a kitchen sink style document.
posted by Braeburn at 10:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't think this is terribly complicated. People tend to have a bias towards keeping things the same. This was a referendum with required voting, so people who would normally have abstained voted for no change.
This isn't the end, and it sounds like they'll go for a more generic round two that's less of a kitchen sink style document.
posted by Braeburn at 10:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't think this is terribly complicated. People tend to have a bias towards keeping things the same.
Yet they voted out the old government, and they voted out pinochet's constitution.
posted by lalochezia at 6:00 AM on September 6, 2022
Not everyone was required to vote during the 2021 election- in fact, only 55% turned out to vote (and of which, about 55% voted for Boric). The elections to the constitutional convention had a lower turnout (about 44%). I actually think 38% of people voting in support of the constitution in those circumstances is pretty good.
Don't misunderstand me, I wish it had passed, but realistically, I can't imagine trying to use it in a court of law. Article 29 would have guaranteed the states recognition of neurodiversity, and would have guaranteed neurodiverse people's right to an autonomous life. Article 44 would have given all people the right to health and well being, inclusion physical and mental well being. It's about a page long, and includes more detail about a national health service. Realistically, the scope of article 29 was already covered by 44. As a super-legal document, that's just unworkable.
Article 56 guarantees all people adequate food, including what is necessary for their health. Article 91 would have given all people the right to rest and to enjoy their free time. There are something like 100 rights covered. In comparison, the European Convention on Human Rights gives fewer than 20.
This was never going to pass, but it's a wonderful document. To me, David Boyd said it best. I read it in the New Scientist recently: "...a South African judge who said that a constitution is like a mirror of a country’s soul. If this proposed constitution is a mirror of the Chilean soul, then, my, what a beautiful soul that is."
posted by Braeburn at 6:57 AM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Don't misunderstand me, I wish it had passed, but realistically, I can't imagine trying to use it in a court of law. Article 29 would have guaranteed the states recognition of neurodiversity, and would have guaranteed neurodiverse people's right to an autonomous life. Article 44 would have given all people the right to health and well being, inclusion physical and mental well being. It's about a page long, and includes more detail about a national health service. Realistically, the scope of article 29 was already covered by 44. As a super-legal document, that's just unworkable.
Article 56 guarantees all people adequate food, including what is necessary for their health. Article 91 would have given all people the right to rest and to enjoy their free time. There are something like 100 rights covered. In comparison, the European Convention on Human Rights gives fewer than 20.
This was never going to pass, but it's a wonderful document. To me, David Boyd said it best. I read it in the New Scientist recently: "...a South African judge who said that a constitution is like a mirror of a country’s soul. If this proposed constitution is a mirror of the Chilean soul, then, my, what a beautiful soul that is."
posted by Braeburn at 6:57 AM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
the first attempt at meaningful reform in decades that would have given LGBTQ+ people actual rights, guaranteed gender parity in government, legalized abortion, recognized first nations' right to exist, and stopped us being the only country in the world that treats water as property, with people literally shitting in plastic bags because they have no running water in view of lush avocado plantations owned by politicians.
It is unfortunate that it is probably most of those specific items that will have to be compromised on, given the need.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:02 AM on September 6, 2022
It is unfortunate that it is probably most of those specific items that will have to be compromised on, given the need.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:02 AM on September 6, 2022
The problem with this kind of wide ranging reform is that gives many people the ability to find some specific thing in it they disagree with in order to vote no while to vote yes you have to agree to every single thing. Statistically, it's frankly amazing that it received the popular support that it did and says very encouraging things about the strength of progressive politics in Chile even though the press won't view it that way.
It's kind of like asking people to agree to every single thing on the menu if they enter a restaurant.
This is also why politicians, particularly on the right, have largely abandoned policy. Specific policies provide details that can lead to their rejection even from people sharing political alignments.
posted by srboisvert at 12:37 PM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's kind of like asking people to agree to every single thing on the menu if they enter a restaurant.
This is also why politicians, particularly on the right, have largely abandoned policy. Specific policies provide details that can lead to their rejection even from people sharing political alignments.
posted by srboisvert at 12:37 PM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Saying a referendum with this lopsided of a result is an indication that Chileans were either hoodwinked, stupid, evil, or all three is something I don't think anyone here should continue implying.
One thing I learned in the past couple of years about referendums is that they're what you use if you want people to say no. It's pretty common for referendum results to come in with 20 percentage points less support for change you see in polling, for a variety of interesting political and sociological reasons that we probably don't completely understand yet.
posted by clawsoon at 3:14 PM on September 6, 2022
One thing I learned in the past couple of years about referendums is that they're what you use if you want people to say no. It's pretty common for referendum results to come in with 20 percentage points less support for change you see in polling, for a variety of interesting political and sociological reasons that we probably don't completely understand yet.
posted by clawsoon at 3:14 PM on September 6, 2022
Signal, if you're willing to discuss what's been going on further, since you live there, I think that would be enlightening. <3
posted by pelvicsorcery at 2:28 AM on September 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by pelvicsorcery at 2:28 AM on September 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by Bee'sWing at 11:45 AM on September 5, 2022 [20 favorites]