Now the Clock Watches You
September 5, 2022 1:36 PM Subscribe
As tracking, recording, and ranking become common across all industries and incomes, so do complaints that it is demoralizing, dehumanizing - and inaccurate. The Rise of the Worker Productivity Score. [NYT]
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Had to help troubleshoot a time clock at work on Friday. While on the web, looking for manuals and documentation, I found that the latest time clocks and time management solutions are through facial recognition. Couple that with ubiquitous surveillance camera systems and your employer can know how much of your time is "productive" down to the second.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
"But two years ago, her employer started requiring chaplains to accrue more of what it called “productivity points.” A visit to the dying: as little as one point. Participating in a funeral: one and three-quarters points. A phone call to grieving relatives: one-quarter point."
p
Rather stymied by this but thought of a letter I found in a book.
J.A Hill & Company- publishers of subscription books, Bibles, etc. July 25, 1894.
"Mr. W. H. Lohman
dear sir, your report received. we are sorry to hear you have had poor success in buffalo. is it not possible that things will be better a little later in the season? we certainly would advise you try again, say the latter part of august. do not give up after only one trial. are there Lutheran congregations in smaller places that you could canvass? you did so well at Eden valley that we should like to have you continue in the work everyday possible. name one or two other places that you can canvass between now and the last of august. then go to Buffalo again. could you not do this?
yours truly, J.A. Hill & Co.
posted by clavdivs at 2:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
p
Rather stymied by this but thought of a letter I found in a book.
J.A Hill & Company- publishers of subscription books, Bibles, etc. July 25, 1894.
"Mr. W. H. Lohman
dear sir, your report received. we are sorry to hear you have had poor success in buffalo. is it not possible that things will be better a little later in the season? we certainly would advise you try again, say the latter part of august. do not give up after only one trial. are there Lutheran congregations in smaller places that you could canvass? you did so well at Eden valley that we should like to have you continue in the work everyday possible. name one or two other places that you can canvass between now and the last of august. then go to Buffalo again. could you not do this?
yours truly, J.A. Hill & Co.
posted by clavdivs at 2:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Tapping machine with hammer: $1
Knowing where to tap: $1000
I'll never allow someone to just pay me for the tap.
Someone should introduce these employers to the concepts of perverse incentivization and gaming the metrics.
posted by tclark at 2:41 PM on September 5, 2022 [36 favorites]
Knowing where to tap: $1000
I'll never allow someone to just pay me for the tap.
Someone should introduce these employers to the concepts of perverse incentivization and gaming the metrics.
posted by tclark at 2:41 PM on September 5, 2022 [36 favorites]
Tracking, they say, allows them to manage with newfound clarity, fairness and insight.
More proof that finding managers and administrators who can think is hard, but finding those who can count is easy.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:55 PM on September 5, 2022 [78 favorites]
More proof that finding managers and administrators who can think is hard, but finding those who can count is easy.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:55 PM on September 5, 2022 [78 favorites]
Indeed, tclark, I wonder whether and when bean counters will calculate
supposed increased productivity
- minus cost of software
- minus cost of replacing all the people who quit
posted by kristi at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
supposed increased productivity
- minus cost of software
- minus cost of replacing all the people who quit
posted by kristi at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
Someone should introduce these employers to the concepts of perverse incentivization and gaming the metrics.
b-but they've got those down pat!
posted by chavenet at 3:23 PM on September 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
b-but they've got those down pat!
posted by chavenet at 3:23 PM on September 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Of course, the bosses and upper management subjecting their employees to this type of tracking aren't using the software on themselves. Heavens no.
Having been working in food service for most of my adult life, one thing that's certain is that if anyone tried to implement this type of system in a kitchen, the staff would quit en masse and the restaurant would close. It's still stressful, low-pay, and straining work at times but there's space at least to be a person. That seems rare in modern work, and has me worried. I'm going to age out of kitchen work sooner than later. The alternative options are feeling bleak.
posted by Philipschall at 3:28 PM on September 5, 2022 [20 favorites]
Having been working in food service for most of my adult life, one thing that's certain is that if anyone tried to implement this type of system in a kitchen, the staff would quit en masse and the restaurant would close. It's still stressful, low-pay, and straining work at times but there's space at least to be a person. That seems rare in modern work, and has me worried. I'm going to age out of kitchen work sooner than later. The alternative options are feeling bleak.
posted by Philipschall at 3:28 PM on September 5, 2022 [20 favorites]
It was part of a bold plan for streamlining and “redefining the way people work,” as one of the creators put it. Office settings were choked with unnecessary interruptions, they believed, and constrained by geography from hiring the best talent worldwide. Smartphones and their constant pings were a growing threat to concentration.
Sounds legit. Clearly the best way to fix this is, uh, giving employees another time-monitoring metric to dedicate their attention to on the job!
...wait.
Man, my ADHD is crawling at the thought of this. I was pretty self-conscious about the "monitoring software" on the article; I often tab away from things while I think about them or to take notes, and obviously that it interprets as not paying attention. Just in general--this feels like a nightmare for anyone neurodivergent or with attention issues, like all my least favorite parts of Zoom meetings: the emphasis on the appearance of attention without any actual attention paid to the level of output. Nightmarish.
The other thing I noticed was that my mind kept getting drawn to thinking about how the system works and contemplating whether I could game it. This is pretty much how I felt when my parents installed Net Nanny software on my computer when I was a kid: the presence of the restraint is just enough attentional drag that working out how to remove it becomes a pressing desire. Let me tell you, as someone who is generally motivated to problem solve and enjoys poking at systems, this is not a good way to get me interested and engaged and thinking about the systems I'm theoretically getting paid for.
And there's so much time theft enabled by it, too! Like, fuck, you're not getting paid for offline work. You're not getting paid if you go take a piss even if you're thinking about the job while you do it. You're not getting paid for time you spend at work, thinking about work, if you aren't exactly in the position that this software assumes you should be in. It's bullshit!
“You have to be in front of your computer, in work mode, 55 or 60 hours just to get those 40 hours counted and paid for,” Ms. Kraemer said.
Exactly. The corporation was stealing 15-20 hours of work per week from this woman. It's shitty, low-quality burnout work, but it is nonetheless work. I'm glad she sued those motherfuckers for the labor violation, although I wish she could disclose the settlement figure--because I firmly believe that actually litigating on the basis of stolen time, and otherwise imposing corporate penalties for time theft that are enforced, is the only way to actually remove incentives to try to steal time from employees on a massive scale. There has to be a consequence for this shit, or it's just going to continue to get worse--and that is especially true for lower-wage workers, who have been struggling under the brunt of this for too fucking long.
Happy Labor Day, y'all.
posted by sciatrix at 3:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [70 favorites]
Sounds legit. Clearly the best way to fix this is, uh, giving employees another time-monitoring metric to dedicate their attention to on the job!
...wait.
Man, my ADHD is crawling at the thought of this. I was pretty self-conscious about the "monitoring software" on the article; I often tab away from things while I think about them or to take notes, and obviously that it interprets as not paying attention. Just in general--this feels like a nightmare for anyone neurodivergent or with attention issues, like all my least favorite parts of Zoom meetings: the emphasis on the appearance of attention without any actual attention paid to the level of output. Nightmarish.
The other thing I noticed was that my mind kept getting drawn to thinking about how the system works and contemplating whether I could game it. This is pretty much how I felt when my parents installed Net Nanny software on my computer when I was a kid: the presence of the restraint is just enough attentional drag that working out how to remove it becomes a pressing desire. Let me tell you, as someone who is generally motivated to problem solve and enjoys poking at systems, this is not a good way to get me interested and engaged and thinking about the systems I'm theoretically getting paid for.
And there's so much time theft enabled by it, too! Like, fuck, you're not getting paid for offline work. You're not getting paid if you go take a piss even if you're thinking about the job while you do it. You're not getting paid for time you spend at work, thinking about work, if you aren't exactly in the position that this software assumes you should be in. It's bullshit!
“You have to be in front of your computer, in work mode, 55 or 60 hours just to get those 40 hours counted and paid for,” Ms. Kraemer said.
Exactly. The corporation was stealing 15-20 hours of work per week from this woman. It's shitty, low-quality burnout work, but it is nonetheless work. I'm glad she sued those motherfuckers for the labor violation, although I wish she could disclose the settlement figure--because I firmly believe that actually litigating on the basis of stolen time, and otherwise imposing corporate penalties for time theft that are enforced, is the only way to actually remove incentives to try to steal time from employees on a massive scale. There has to be a consequence for this shit, or it's just going to continue to get worse--and that is especially true for lower-wage workers, who have been struggling under the brunt of this for too fucking long.
Happy Labor Day, y'all.
posted by sciatrix at 3:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [70 favorites]
>“We’re in this era of measurement but we don’t know what we should be measuring” Ryan Fuller who is the CEO of a new company with the tagline, 'Round is a private community for tech's most thoughtful leaders.'
Welcome to the indignities of the working class of the last 60 years Ryan, perhaps we could get you to do something with your new venture that doesn't so closely resemble techno valley bullshit that has eroded worker protections.
posted by Leelas at 3:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
Welcome to the indignities of the working class of the last 60 years Ryan, perhaps we could get you to do something with your new venture that doesn't so closely resemble techno valley bullshit that has eroded worker protections.
posted by Leelas at 3:33 PM on September 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
"Tracking, they say, allows them to manage with newfound clarity, fairness and insight."
I've only said this about a zillion times on this site. For any situation where we're talking about knowledge workers, this will never work. As a consultant, this shit tickles me to no end, because people who think this will help them to manage people mistake "time tapping on a keyboard" with "value provided." Again, they're measuring output, not outcome.
Five years from now, all of my future clients will come to my company and say "golly gee we just can't get this thing built, despite the fact that we've dropped all this money and effort into management tracking. We know people are at work on their keyboards, but our numbers keep going down. What are we doing wrong?" And then we'll get to come in and say "fuck these trackers, you gotta have clear, measurable goals, that align with some plan that will increase revenue for your company, and then you gotta trust the people you hire to hit those goals, and that's it."
It really is that simple. All of this measuring busy-ness is like measuring music by how many notes the score has, rather than, whether it's fun to hum.
posted by nushustu at 3:46 PM on September 5, 2022 [71 favorites]
I've only said this about a zillion times on this site. For any situation where we're talking about knowledge workers, this will never work. As a consultant, this shit tickles me to no end, because people who think this will help them to manage people mistake "time tapping on a keyboard" with "value provided." Again, they're measuring output, not outcome.
Five years from now, all of my future clients will come to my company and say "golly gee we just can't get this thing built, despite the fact that we've dropped all this money and effort into management tracking. We know people are at work on their keyboards, but our numbers keep going down. What are we doing wrong?" And then we'll get to come in and say "fuck these trackers, you gotta have clear, measurable goals, that align with some plan that will increase revenue for your company, and then you gotta trust the people you hire to hit those goals, and that's it."
It really is that simple. All of this measuring busy-ness is like measuring music by how many notes the score has, rather than, whether it's fun to hum.
posted by nushustu at 3:46 PM on September 5, 2022 [71 favorites]
The one-two anti-worker punch coupled with the "quiet quitting" criticism.
“You have to be in front of your computer, in work mode, 55 or 60 hours just to get those 40 hours counted and paid for,” Ms. Kraemer said.
Working 60 hours a week for a 40-hour salary is about a 35% pay cut.
posted by rhizome at 3:52 PM on September 5, 2022 [26 favorites]
“You have to be in front of your computer, in work mode, 55 or 60 hours just to get those 40 hours counted and paid for,” Ms. Kraemer said.
Working 60 hours a week for a 40-hour salary is about a 35% pay cut.
posted by rhizome at 3:52 PM on September 5, 2022 [26 favorites]
I’m a “knowledge worker” (ugh that term) and if my employer ever tried to do this I would make my new second job unionizing my workplace.
posted by rhymedirective at 4:02 PM on September 5, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 4:02 PM on September 5, 2022 [29 favorites]
I'm glad my boss is an engineer. This would never fly with him so he won't impose it on us. Half the brilliant problem-solving happens while waiting for the coffee machine, or in the bathroom, or on the drive home or whatever.
posted by Foosnark at 4:09 PM on September 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 4:09 PM on September 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
Half the brilliant problem-solving happens while waiting for the coffee machine, or in the bathroom, or on the drive home or whatever.
I'm not sure we are ever brilliant, but otherwise the same is true for where I work. But, I could totally see the corporate leadership going for this kind of thing. There is a serious discomfort at the higher levels with anything that smacks of autonomy, despite moving to mostly remote work turning out to result in high profits, and despite the entire business model being based off of highly autonomous "knowledge workers".
posted by Dip Flash at 4:27 PM on September 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
I'm not sure we are ever brilliant, but otherwise the same is true for where I work. But, I could totally see the corporate leadership going for this kind of thing. There is a serious discomfort at the higher levels with anything that smacks of autonomy, despite moving to mostly remote work turning out to result in high profits, and despite the entire business model being based off of highly autonomous "knowledge workers".
posted by Dip Flash at 4:27 PM on September 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
This is why I, on principle, and to soothe my neuroticism, always left my outlook setting as off or "do not disturb". Now that we finally have Teams (we needed the fancy Gov version plus) I don't sign into it unless I'm using it (yes, I know I could be signed in as "off line", but it drives me bananas to think people could know the moment I went idle" or came back online as I WFH even though none of my superiors give a flying fuck.
I'm very lucky, for the most part to have a boss who supports me and internal clients who respect my opinion and way more time off then I can find the time to use.
posted by atomicstone at 4:36 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm very lucky, for the most part to have a boss who supports me and internal clients who respect my opinion and way more time off then I can find the time to use.
posted by atomicstone at 4:36 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
So i do CRM and database projects for nonprofits, who thankfully don't seem to have any interest in adopting these technologies, but my org is currently seeking some new leadership so who knows?
Imagining how I'd manage tasks under such a watchful eye, I could easily see my daily workload shifting HEAVILY away from anything challenging and complicated like tool integrations and sales process planning, and much more toward make-work data entry. Complicated projects take a certain amount of planning, research, and reflection, which often just doesn't LOOK like work to the outside observer. But I assure if you, if they started docking me for time spent ruminating, they would get very little of their money's worth on the time I demonstrably "worked."
I know I've got a little ADHD going on, but I can't be alone in that. This is a terrible idea.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 5:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
Imagining how I'd manage tasks under such a watchful eye, I could easily see my daily workload shifting HEAVILY away from anything challenging and complicated like tool integrations and sales process planning, and much more toward make-work data entry. Complicated projects take a certain amount of planning, research, and reflection, which often just doesn't LOOK like work to the outside observer. But I assure if you, if they started docking me for time spent ruminating, they would get very little of their money's worth on the time I demonstrably "worked."
I know I've got a little ADHD going on, but I can't be alone in that. This is a terrible idea.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 5:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
Just because you can measure a thing does not make that measurement meaningful (or in any way worth taking).
posted by nat at 5:12 PM on September 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by nat at 5:12 PM on September 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
Someone should introduce these employers to the concepts of perverse incentivization and gaming the metrics.
FTA: But Crossover defends its practices on its website, saying that its “‘Fitbit’ of productivity”
Fortune: People are attaching their Fitbits and other activity trackers to hamster wheels, power tools, ceiling fans, and even their pet dogs to drive up their step count and win office fitness competitions based on the devices’ data. Dogs wearing a fitness tracker can log 13,000 to 30,000 steps on the device per day [...] readers are sharing even more unusual hacks they’ve discovered for getting Fitbit to count fake steps, driving a power boat to riding a horse, playing the piano and “whisking batter to make chocolate chip cookies.”
Employee of the month: Hitachi Magic Wand
posted by adept256 at 5:13 PM on September 5, 2022 [64 favorites]
FTA: But Crossover defends its practices on its website, saying that its “‘Fitbit’ of productivity”
Fortune: People are attaching their Fitbits and other activity trackers to hamster wheels, power tools, ceiling fans, and even their pet dogs to drive up their step count and win office fitness competitions based on the devices’ data. Dogs wearing a fitness tracker can log 13,000 to 30,000 steps on the device per day [...] readers are sharing even more unusual hacks they’ve discovered for getting Fitbit to count fake steps, driving a power boat to riding a horse, playing the piano and “whisking batter to make chocolate chip cookies.”
Employee of the month: Hitachi Magic Wand
posted by adept256 at 5:13 PM on September 5, 2022 [64 favorites]
God this is disgusting. I wish we could trim everyone's wealth to no more than a couple mil. See how they'd feel about this meat-grinder if there was even a miniscule chance they could fall into it. Sure there are the true-believer bootlicker wage-slaves that love self-flagellating to maintain their sense of self in the eyes of their perceived betters, but they'd drop their vampire's familiar schtick if capital wasn't salivating for these additional pounds of flesh.
I left a partnership model for a worker-ownership model a year ago, and I've realized that, as the sole decider of how I spent my time and how much I bill, that 45-48 minutes an hour is the sweet spot for a billable hour for me.
I never work more than two hours without the ~30 minute break, and I rarely work more than 8 hours a day.
Not everyone can do this, for sure (though our co-op model is to help more folks side-step the grinder while building their skills/credentials), but I do it because if I work more, I fuck up, or I get sick, or I can't sleep. Because y'all, my mind needs time to process shit. I need time to breathe.
I just can't imagine this path not leading to more health issues for workers that ultimately lead to significantly lower quality of a shorter life. Of course capital doesn't care bc the oligopic model we live under and bake into every business environment in the country will make sure everyone grinds their labor the same way.
Anyway. These people should slit their boss's/owner's tires on the regular. Find ways to do it from afar. Get weird with it.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:17 PM on September 5, 2022 [34 favorites]
I left a partnership model for a worker-ownership model a year ago, and I've realized that, as the sole decider of how I spent my time and how much I bill, that 45-48 minutes an hour is the sweet spot for a billable hour for me.
I never work more than two hours without the ~30 minute break, and I rarely work more than 8 hours a day.
Not everyone can do this, for sure (though our co-op model is to help more folks side-step the grinder while building their skills/credentials), but I do it because if I work more, I fuck up, or I get sick, or I can't sleep. Because y'all, my mind needs time to process shit. I need time to breathe.
I just can't imagine this path not leading to more health issues for workers that ultimately lead to significantly lower quality of a shorter life. Of course capital doesn't care bc the oligopic model we live under and bake into every business environment in the country will make sure everyone grinds their labor the same way.
Anyway. These people should slit their boss's/owner's tires on the regular. Find ways to do it from afar. Get weird with it.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:17 PM on September 5, 2022 [34 favorites]
One thing to keep in mind, for those of us who feel particularly secure in our ability to push back as knowledge workers, engineers, developers, "people for whom they haven't been able to drive down salaries for entirely", "people who need to be well-paid partially to get the most out of the current R&D tax incentive underwriting so many companies", etc:
Watch the other spaces in your company. Sure *you* may feel secure. But odds are good this sort of metricization is creeping in in other departments. Any sort of people-facing role especially, for those elements that are still in-house. Moderation, Trust & Safety, all those spaces that still nominally (in the eye of business) require humans in the loop, but is a cost center where the incentives aren't to adequately staff & pay the department but instead to boost throughput on leaner & leaner teams.
I've seen some number of companies fall into that pattern. Devs are kept happy, they might even have a pay transparency document somewhere. But while that goes on, other departments get squeezed tight.
What's the answer? Easier said than done, but the tide's starting to turn. Look to Kickstarter (the non-crypto side). Or the New York Times (non op-ed side)
posted by CrystalDave at 5:24 PM on September 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
Watch the other spaces in your company. Sure *you* may feel secure. But odds are good this sort of metricization is creeping in in other departments. Any sort of people-facing role especially, for those elements that are still in-house. Moderation, Trust & Safety, all those spaces that still nominally (in the eye of business) require humans in the loop, but is a cost center where the incentives aren't to adequately staff & pay the department but instead to boost throughput on leaner & leaner teams.
I've seen some number of companies fall into that pattern. Devs are kept happy, they might even have a pay transparency document somewhere. But while that goes on, other departments get squeezed tight.
What's the answer? Easier said than done, but the tide's starting to turn. Look to Kickstarter (the non-crypto side). Or the New York Times (non op-ed side)
posted by CrystalDave at 5:24 PM on September 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
“ are there Lutheran congregations in smaller places that you could canvass? you did so well at Eden valley that we should like to have you continue in the work everyday possible.”
I too blame the so called Protestant Work Ethic.
posted by Bottlecap at 6:13 PM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I too blame the so called Protestant Work Ethic.
posted by Bottlecap at 6:13 PM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'd love to have software like this where I work, watching what I do. I'd game the shit out of it. Enjoyable challenges are fun for me. I even thought about how to get around a camera watching me. Just a second computer to the side of the work one. The one for gaming online while gaming the work system.
At any rate where I work isn't doing this. 2 weeks ago everyone was told to come back to work. But only to clean out the desks. Management decided after 2.5 years of working from home, anything in or on desks was not needed, so clean up the mess and work from home permanently.
Of course, I do have to go into work every day, since I need physical access to some stuff. But at least there is only a few other people in the large building.
posted by baegucb at 6:50 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
At any rate where I work isn't doing this. 2 weeks ago everyone was told to come back to work. But only to clean out the desks. Management decided after 2.5 years of working from home, anything in or on desks was not needed, so clean up the mess and work from home permanently.
Of course, I do have to go into work every day, since I need physical access to some stuff. But at least there is only a few other people in the large building.
posted by baegucb at 6:50 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thanks for such an interesting post and discussion, even though just reading the article made my cortisol spike. I'm so glad I am now in charge of my own small organization and can make sure this never happens to anyone in it, including me.
posted by rpfields at 6:53 PM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by rpfields at 6:53 PM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Watch the other spaces in your company.
Any contractors they may hire, too.
I spend a fair amount of time at work staring off into space, letting complex thoughts percolate and/or managing my slightly awry brain to allow the thoughts to emerge. I'd never survive a regime like this.
posted by praemunire at 6:57 PM on September 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
Any contractors they may hire, too.
I spend a fair amount of time at work staring off into space, letting complex thoughts percolate and/or managing my slightly awry brain to allow the thoughts to emerge. I'd never survive a regime like this.
posted by praemunire at 6:57 PM on September 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
I even thought about how to get around a camera watching me. Just a second computer to the side of the work one.
I was thinking about that one, too--my answer was an iPad in front of you, right below the camera. They'd have a hard time knowing where you were looking.
I'd also carry that thing into the bathroom with me. Let them get some interesting backgrounds in those shots.
posted by rpfields at 6:58 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was thinking about that one, too--my answer was an iPad in front of you, right below the camera. They'd have a hard time knowing where you were looking.
I'd also carry that thing into the bathroom with me. Let them get some interesting backgrounds in those shots.
posted by rpfields at 6:58 PM on September 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Programmers solved this when the metric was number of bugs closed. Large numbers of trivial bugs injected, like correct typo. Some actually wanted to shift to "piece work" ... $10/bug? Cool we can automate that and close thousands of bugs per day. Inner loop, man, optimize the inner loop.
posted by sammyo at 7:06 PM on September 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 7:06 PM on September 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
I could easily see my daily workload shifting HEAVILY away from anything challenging and complicated like tool integrations and sales process planning, and much more toward make-work data entry.
Yes. I'm currently on the radar of someone unpleasant at work. We have to keep case notes and I've been doing a lot more unnecessary but brief "work" so I can make a note. Now when she clicks through to see how long its been since I've made a note in a file, it's a low number. Am I doing a better job? Definitely not. Do my clients benefit from this? Absolutely not.
posted by Mavri at 7:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
Yes. I'm currently on the radar of someone unpleasant at work. We have to keep case notes and I've been doing a lot more unnecessary but brief "work" so I can make a note. Now when she clicks through to see how long its been since I've made a note in a file, it's a low number. Am I doing a better job? Definitely not. Do my clients benefit from this? Absolutely not.
posted by Mavri at 7:08 PM on September 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
My dad was a career public servant who survived the management fads of the 80s and 90s.
He hated them; he used to go on at length about the dangers of reducing your decision making process only to metrics, or - far worse - only to metrics you could easily gather. He understood what would come to be known as Goodhart's Law in his bones.
"People use to say to me, Hoye, if you can't measure it you can't manage it. And I would always tell them: if we can measure it then any jackass can manage it. You just pick a measure and twiddle the knobs you can put your hands on until you get what you want. It's worth nothing. The hard part is knowing what you can measure and what you can't, what's important and what's not, what your tradeoffs are. That's where the skill and art of management lives. That's where you find our who your leaders are."
"You can tell an organization is doomed when they start managing by easy-to-get metrics. Those organizations don't know what real leadership is anymore, so they're trying as hard as they can to commodify it."
posted by mhoye at 8:01 PM on September 5, 2022 [50 favorites]
He hated them; he used to go on at length about the dangers of reducing your decision making process only to metrics, or - far worse - only to metrics you could easily gather. He understood what would come to be known as Goodhart's Law in his bones.
"People use to say to me, Hoye, if you can't measure it you can't manage it. And I would always tell them: if we can measure it then any jackass can manage it. You just pick a measure and twiddle the knobs you can put your hands on until you get what you want. It's worth nothing. The hard part is knowing what you can measure and what you can't, what's important and what's not, what your tradeoffs are. That's where the skill and art of management lives. That's where you find our who your leaders are."
"You can tell an organization is doomed when they start managing by easy-to-get metrics. Those organizations don't know what real leadership is anymore, so they're trying as hard as they can to commodify it."
posted by mhoye at 8:01 PM on September 5, 2022 [50 favorites]
"The beatings shall continue until morale improves." -The Far Side
posted by grokus at 8:26 PM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by grokus at 8:26 PM on September 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
We use Teams at my work, and every time it goes yellow because it detects I am idle, it stays yellow until I do something really significant -- just scrolling through the document I am already reading doesn't do it, for example. Typing usually brings it back but not always. The most reliable action is to open Teams and click on anything in Teams.
And my Teams goes idle in the time I sometimes spend reading and thinking about a particularly dense bit of regulatory text. So, while I know my boss is not actually paying attention to that as an indicator, I nonetheless find that I click into Teams an unnecessary gajillion times a day, just because it's the way to change the status so people can see that I'm not idle in case they want to ask me something. Which kills both my focus and my productivity.
This experience doesn't exactly give me high hopes for the accuracy of tracking software.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:34 PM on September 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
And my Teams goes idle in the time I sometimes spend reading and thinking about a particularly dense bit of regulatory text. So, while I know my boss is not actually paying attention to that as an indicator, I nonetheless find that I click into Teams an unnecessary gajillion times a day, just because it's the way to change the status so people can see that I'm not idle in case they want to ask me something. Which kills both my focus and my productivity.
This experience doesn't exactly give me high hopes for the accuracy of tracking software.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:34 PM on September 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
This article stressed me out so much.
posted by Toddles at 8:37 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 8:37 PM on September 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Reminds me of when Microsoft was small and IBM was huge and they made a deal to mutually come out with a new version of Windows. Then the massive culture clash happened.
IBM was huge on 'performance metrics'. They must still be because I just did a web search and came up with many, many links on performance metrics on IBMs site.
IBM really liked a metric called something like KLOPS which was a measure of how many lines per minute of code a software person was writing and they complained that Microsoft's software team didn't have as high numbers as IBMs team.
Microsoft, which actually had people tasked with making code more efficient, which would count as negative lines per minute in IBM's system balked at this style of management and the whole deal fell apart (for this and other reasons) and Microsoft went their own way to create Windows NT, and IBM went their own way to create OS/2, which you probably haven't heard of.
And that was back in the 1980s.
Computers are much better at keeping track of keypresses, so this terrible style of management seems to be getting even worse, to even nightmare dimensions.
posted by eye of newt at 11:30 PM on September 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
IBM was huge on 'performance metrics'. They must still be because I just did a web search and came up with many, many links on performance metrics on IBMs site.
IBM really liked a metric called something like KLOPS which was a measure of how many lines per minute of code a software person was writing and they complained that Microsoft's software team didn't have as high numbers as IBMs team.
Microsoft, which actually had people tasked with making code more efficient, which would count as negative lines per minute in IBM's system balked at this style of management and the whole deal fell apart (for this and other reasons) and Microsoft went their own way to create Windows NT, and IBM went their own way to create OS/2, which you probably haven't heard of.
And that was back in the 1980s.
Computers are much better at keeping track of keypresses, so this terrible style of management seems to be getting even worse, to even nightmare dimensions.
posted by eye of newt at 11:30 PM on September 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
"Like paying aircraft designers by the pound", billg was said to have said.
posted by clew at 12:26 AM on September 6, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by clew at 12:26 AM on September 6, 2022 [21 favorites]
As a low-level manager, I will always argue vigorously against this kind of crap. When you implement these sorts of crude metrics, you're incentivising people to just work the stupid metrics, not their job. In IT Support for example, if you measure e.g. call durations or tickets closed, you just get people ending the phone call as soon as they possibly can "now you need to reboot. I'm going to end there, please call back if it doesn't work!" etc. So you just end up bouncing the customer between different call handlers like a hot potato, all trying to get off the call as fast as possible rather than fix the damn problem. For tickets, people will obviously go for low hanging fruit and ignore serious problems because they'll hurt their 'ticket closed' metric. It's the exact opposite of the customer service you're (nominally) supposed to be delivering.
And they often completely ignore all the vital 'soft' skills of working with other human beings, including customers, because those are hard to measure quantitively.
My job is to know if you're taking on a fair percentage of the work of the team within your skillset, that you have opportunities to grow and learn new things, to resolve disputes fairly, and be the umbrella that protects you from shit rolling down from on high (and upward stuff about advising upper management etc). I'm judged on whether the team is delivering good quality customer support overall and meeting the IT needs of the org, and ideally within budget. If I can't do that and instead have to rely on some bullshit presenteeism metric, then I'm a shit manager.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:33 AM on September 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
And they often completely ignore all the vital 'soft' skills of working with other human beings, including customers, because those are hard to measure quantitively.
My job is to know if you're taking on a fair percentage of the work of the team within your skillset, that you have opportunities to grow and learn new things, to resolve disputes fairly, and be the umbrella that protects you from shit rolling down from on high (and upward stuff about advising upper management etc). I'm judged on whether the team is delivering good quality customer support overall and meeting the IT needs of the org, and ideally within budget. If I can't do that and instead have to rely on some bullshit presenteeism metric, then I'm a shit manager.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:33 AM on September 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
Not that I'm particularly successful, but I think I've developed a reasonably good reputation as an unpredictable oddball with a lot of creativity who can get things done. And it's hilarious how badly I would flounder in an environment like this.
I mean, it would be hilarious if it weren't shocking that people are being put through this. It's not like performance metrics are a new thing, they're just more invasive. Goodhart's law, except now the meritocracy theatre is extra dehumanizing. The passages on the hospice are really upsetting.
posted by Alex404 at 12:58 AM on September 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
I mean, it would be hilarious if it weren't shocking that people are being put through this. It's not like performance metrics are a new thing, they're just more invasive. Goodhart's law, except now the meritocracy theatre is extra dehumanizing. The passages on the hospice are really upsetting.
posted by Alex404 at 12:58 AM on September 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm the crazy person who likes a handful of objective metrics to check against my "gut feel" from time to time. But it's important to treat them as data points without inherent meaning. If one surprises you, you should check it out to see what it means. They can't be treated as if/then blocks on a flowchart.
I mean, I might be interested in how much time my first-line supervisors spend in front of the computer, to see if maybe I'm giving them too much administrative crap to do instead of literally supervising the workers. Not all the time, a spot-check once in a while. One of the dangers of having that information readily available is the temptation to use it instead of your thinking/managing skills.
I don't really need an automated employee spy device, though. I could get a reasonable estimate of that information just by asking them (and applying a slight grain of salt, but on average it would be close enough.) Weird concept, I know.
posted by ctmf at 1:28 AM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean, I might be interested in how much time my first-line supervisors spend in front of the computer, to see if maybe I'm giving them too much administrative crap to do instead of literally supervising the workers. Not all the time, a spot-check once in a while. One of the dangers of having that information readily available is the temptation to use it instead of your thinking/managing skills.
I don't really need an automated employee spy device, though. I could get a reasonable estimate of that information just by asking them (and applying a slight grain of salt, but on average it would be close enough.) Weird concept, I know.
posted by ctmf at 1:28 AM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I could get a reasonable estimate of that information just by asking them
Not to mention using my eyeballs, which is literally what I'm supposed to do. The "metric" just suggests what to specifically look out for today.
posted by ctmf at 1:31 AM on September 6, 2022
Not to mention using my eyeballs, which is literally what I'm supposed to do. The "metric" just suggests what to specifically look out for today.
posted by ctmf at 1:31 AM on September 6, 2022
Over-reliance on productivity metrics is how you get vast quantities of low-effort shit, turned out in record time.
posted by ctmf at 1:33 AM on September 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 1:33 AM on September 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
Programmers solved this when the metric was number of bugs closed. Large numbers of trivial bugs injected, like correct typo. Some actually wanted to shift to "piece work" ... $10/bug? Cool we can automate that and close thousands of bugs per day.
This is called the Cobra Effect. Don't forget to automate the creation of new bugs!
posted by rhizome at 1:46 AM on September 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is called the Cobra Effect. Don't forget to automate the creation of new bugs!
posted by rhizome at 1:46 AM on September 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
We use Teams at my work, and every time it goes yellow because it detects I am idle, it stays yellow until I do something really significant
Teams is inconsistent for me -- sometimes it never goes yellow (yay!)
Usually when I'm working from home, I have my Remote Desktop session on one monitor and my notes, email, TFS etc. in a browser on my local machine. And of course Teams thinks I'm idle if I'm not directly doing stuff in the remote session. But then usually, waving my mouse over the Teams taskbar icon is enough to wake it back up.
posted by Foosnark at 5:10 AM on September 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Teams is inconsistent for me -- sometimes it never goes yellow (yay!)
Usually when I'm working from home, I have my Remote Desktop session on one monitor and my notes, email, TFS etc. in a browser on my local machine. And of course Teams thinks I'm idle if I'm not directly doing stuff in the remote session. But then usually, waving my mouse over the Teams taskbar icon is enough to wake it back up.
posted by Foosnark at 5:10 AM on September 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
And it's already possible to game that, Foosnark, there are multiple devices you can buy that will jiggle your mouse periodically so you always look busy!
posted by emjaybee at 5:17 AM on September 6, 2022
posted by emjaybee at 5:17 AM on September 6, 2022
so do complaints that it is demoralizing, dehumanizing - and inaccurate.
Well, I did once work (briefly) for someone — let’s call him Mr. Pecksniff — who was all about this, and he stressed often how important it was for him in any situation to get the wrong answer quickly. “I can get you the figures by Wednesday, as I am still waiting for some places to submit theirs.” “No, send me what you have now and we will work with that.” Two weeks later he would complain that the real figures did not conform to his guesswork.
I don’t know if Pecksniff ever looked into this sort of monitoring software, but he definitely did it artisanally. I recall him complaining in a conference call that such-and-such a worker across the country was logged into Facebook “all the time.” The head of the organization took Pecksniff to task on the call over this: “Do you know what hours she works? Do you know what her days off are? She reports to me and I am very happy with her work — the question arises why are you on Facebook when you are supposed to be running a million-dollar division.”
Incidentally, I knew the supposedly Facebook-obsessed individual in question. I later looked at her Facebook page and the only thing she had posted publicly in weeks was a condolence message to a friend who had just lost his father (and even that was at her local lunch hour).
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:20 AM on September 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Well, I did once work (briefly) for someone — let’s call him Mr. Pecksniff — who was all about this, and he stressed often how important it was for him in any situation to get the wrong answer quickly. “I can get you the figures by Wednesday, as I am still waiting for some places to submit theirs.” “No, send me what you have now and we will work with that.” Two weeks later he would complain that the real figures did not conform to his guesswork.
I don’t know if Pecksniff ever looked into this sort of monitoring software, but he definitely did it artisanally. I recall him complaining in a conference call that such-and-such a worker across the country was logged into Facebook “all the time.” The head of the organization took Pecksniff to task on the call over this: “Do you know what hours she works? Do you know what her days off are? She reports to me and I am very happy with her work — the question arises why are you on Facebook when you are supposed to be running a million-dollar division.”
Incidentally, I knew the supposedly Facebook-obsessed individual in question. I later looked at her Facebook page and the only thing she had posted publicly in weeks was a condolence message to a friend who had just lost his father (and even that was at her local lunch hour).
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:20 AM on September 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Working from home has unfortunately raised the threshold for the level of crap I'm willing to put up with because I don't want to ever again waste my life sitting in traffic for up to three hours a day.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:18 AM on September 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:18 AM on September 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Who actually thinks this is a good idea? I have to think this practice will fall out of favor soon. It is so obviously a horrible way to try to manage people.
If you fire employees or cause them to voluntarily leave your company because of your hideous productivity tracking practices, you're going to run out of competent employees. You'll just be left with people who are good at gaming the system.
I think most companies are learning by now that employees who leave often aren't that easily replaced.
There's not a bottomless pool of people willing to fill roles left empty by horrible management practices.
posted by wondermouse at 7:19 AM on September 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
If you fire employees or cause them to voluntarily leave your company because of your hideous productivity tracking practices, you're going to run out of competent employees. You'll just be left with people who are good at gaming the system.
I think most companies are learning by now that employees who leave often aren't that easily replaced.
There's not a bottomless pool of people willing to fill roles left empty by horrible management practices.
posted by wondermouse at 7:19 AM on September 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I cannot tell you how many work problems I have solved by staring at the screen or sketching flows out in a notebook. But Teams thinks I’m away.
The productivity tracker on the NYT article was really well done.
posted by kimberussell at 7:52 AM on September 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
The productivity tracker on the NYT article was really well done.
posted by kimberussell at 7:52 AM on September 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Glad to see my former employer featured so heavily in this article. UHG: Finding innovative ways to make people miserable since 1977!
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:10 AM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:10 AM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
My work place is getting worse and worse and they just installed spyware. They used to be so good. I get over 100% all the time and I fucking HATE It and I despise that I'm judged against my coworkers all of different abilities, and I'm glad I bring up our groups ranking, but I hate the fact that you can't just IDK, look at call volumes in general and see oh yeah, maaaaaaaaybe we need more people, no it's push push push til you fucking quit.
I learned a new term (see lying flat, also from China):
"Another newer related phrase is bai lan (Chinese: 摆烂; pinyin: bǎi làn; lit. 'let it rot'), which means "to actively embrace a deteriorating situation, rather than trying to turn it around"."
I've always been about entropy, well I found new inspiration that lying flat didn't.
RIP Mark Fisher
posted by symbioid at 8:30 AM on September 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
I learned a new term (see lying flat, also from China):
"Another newer related phrase is bai lan (Chinese: 摆烂; pinyin: bǎi làn; lit. 'let it rot'), which means "to actively embrace a deteriorating situation, rather than trying to turn it around"."
I've always been about entropy, well I found new inspiration that lying flat didn't.
RIP Mark Fisher
posted by symbioid at 8:30 AM on September 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Just want to let people know that there are many free variations on a program called Caffeine that is basically just a macro to stimulate your computer so it isn’t idle like every 100 seconds or whenever. It’s usually not detectable and doesn’t have to be installed to work, you could even just write your own macro.
But if you’re like oh I can’t put that on my work computer, you can probably sign in to Teams on a personal computer, give it no management access, and run Caffeine there.
This message brought to you by the Game a System if the System is Stupid committee.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:14 AM on September 6, 2022 [17 favorites]
But if you’re like oh I can’t put that on my work computer, you can probably sign in to Teams on a personal computer, give it no management access, and run Caffeine there.
This message brought to you by the Game a System if the System is Stupid committee.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:14 AM on September 6, 2022 [17 favorites]
When you implement these sorts of crude metrics, you're incentivising people to just work the stupid metrics, not their job.
Perhaps I shouldn't let this secret out, but when you sue a service provider for screwing over the customers, you always demand their policies relating to metrics of this sort in discovery, because they invariably give the front-line workers incentives to provide terrible service.
posted by praemunire at 10:15 AM on September 6, 2022 [22 favorites]
Perhaps I shouldn't let this secret out, but when you sue a service provider for screwing over the customers, you always demand their policies relating to metrics of this sort in discovery, because they invariably give the front-line workers incentives to provide terrible service.
posted by praemunire at 10:15 AM on September 6, 2022 [22 favorites]
Remember the terrifying auditor who kindly dropped in on a thread about his firm’s work on a Royal Mail accounting tragedy? I wonder what that kind of auditor thinks about this kind of record keeping.
Also, in general, it’s such a strange alienation from make the customer happy so the customer will continue to pay us money.
posted by clew at 12:59 PM on September 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also, in general, it’s such a strange alienation from make the customer happy so the customer will continue to pay us money.
posted by clew at 12:59 PM on September 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
eye of newt: Reminds me of when Microsoft was small and IBM was huge...
Office 365 (now known as M365) and Teams track user actions and feed data into machine learning projects to offer "insights" about productive use of the tools that companies are paying Microsoft for[1].
1: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/admin/usage-analytics/get-the-latest-version-of-usage-analytics?view=o365-worldwide
posted by k3ninho at 2:27 PM on September 6, 2022
Office 365 (now known as M365) and Teams track user actions and feed data into machine learning projects to offer "insights" about productive use of the tools that companies are paying Microsoft for[1].
1: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/admin/usage-analytics/get-the-latest-version-of-usage-analytics?view=o365-worldwide
posted by k3ninho at 2:27 PM on September 6, 2022
But if you’re like oh I can’t put that on my work computer, you can probably sign in to Teams on a personal computer, give it no management access, and run Caffeine there.
If you tape an analog watch with a moving second hand over the laser of your mouse, it will also generally register as "the mouse is moving, so you're working!"
posted by blnkfrnk at 4:21 PM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
If you tape an analog watch with a moving second hand over the laser of your mouse, it will also generally register as "the mouse is moving, so you're working!"
posted by blnkfrnk at 4:21 PM on September 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
So I'm a middle manager who doesn't give a damn how people spend their days as longs as things get done competently by deadline, and whose department manager also doesn't give a damn how I or her other middle manager spend our days so long as everything gets done competently by deadline. That lack of micro-managing tends to spur members of our small (law firm library) team to innovate methods/procedures for deliverables. We're never asked, and we never ask, about how the past hour/day/week has been spent. I think we all know that Teams - which we use - clocks us to some degree but nobody ever delves into it.
At some point our department manager is going to retire. Likely soon. Apres her, god knows what kind of manager will deluge.
posted by goofyfoot at 8:22 PM on September 6, 2022
At some point our department manager is going to retire. Likely soon. Apres her, god knows what kind of manager will deluge.
posted by goofyfoot at 8:22 PM on September 6, 2022
I am reminded of the early cinema mogul (I want to say Samuel Goldwyn, but that may be wrong) who would skulk outside screenwriter’s offices and fire them if he heard the typing pause, because if they are not typing, they are not working.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:25 AM on September 7, 2022
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:25 AM on September 7, 2022
With writing, it often is kind of a momentum thing. But I take a lot of walks and showers and general lie downs in between bouts of writing. I like to think that story about early cinema was that the scripts were all crap so it was basically monkeys pounding on typewriters.
I'm on day 2 of them breaching my employment contract by having me in 3 days a week instead of 2. The urge to mutiny is rising.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:30 AM on September 7, 2022
I'm on day 2 of them breaching my employment contract by having me in 3 days a week instead of 2. The urge to mutiny is rising.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:30 AM on September 7, 2022
I hope Scott Adams steps on a rake today but since 11/21/94 hardly a week has gone by that I haven't thought of this line from Dilbert: "No metric has beaten me yet!".
posted by neuron at 9:26 AM on September 7, 2022
posted by neuron at 9:26 AM on September 7, 2022
I also think of the e.e. cummings' line:
who cares if some oneeyed son of a bitch
invents an instrument to measure Spring with?
posted by neuron at 9:28 AM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
who cares if some oneeyed son of a bitch
invents an instrument to measure Spring with?
posted by neuron at 9:28 AM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
StackOverflow’s podcast talked about this a bit (transcript). Im surprised at their seeming surprise, but they’re convinced it’s a bad idea for everybody.
posted by clew at 1:37 PM on September 7, 2022
posted by clew at 1:37 PM on September 7, 2022
Add me to the crowd of people who were made anxious by the productivity timer. That's got to be an active distraction from any kind of knowledge work that relies on flow.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 2:44 PM on September 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by gentlyepigrams at 2:44 PM on September 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Somewhere in hell Robert McNamara is still not getting it.
posted by fullerine at 12:07 AM on September 8, 2022
posted by fullerine at 12:07 AM on September 8, 2022
I'm trying to figure out a way to do something like this at work, but for completely the opposite reason to that in the article.
We ask people to do too much, and there's a culture of "I'll rush it/work late" rather than filtering to the impactful parts, and letting the rest stay at defaults. That's not healthy, and it doesn't leave the time for training, emergencies, project work, or thinking about better ways to do stuff.
Need a way to figure out what processes are causing the most work, and prioritise those to be streamlined or to see if they can be partially automated. Problem's trying to find a way to do that which isn't going to look like the crap in the article, or which isn't going to mean asking hectic people to do another thing by manually logging work.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:42 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
We ask people to do too much, and there's a culture of "I'll rush it/work late" rather than filtering to the impactful parts, and letting the rest stay at defaults. That's not healthy, and it doesn't leave the time for training, emergencies, project work, or thinking about better ways to do stuff.
Need a way to figure out what processes are causing the most work, and prioritise those to be streamlined or to see if they can be partially automated. Problem's trying to find a way to do that which isn't going to look like the crap in the article, or which isn't going to mean asking hectic people to do another thing by manually logging work.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:42 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by praemunire at 1:56 PM on September 5, 2022 [9 favorites]