The Feds say we monkey around
September 10, 2022 12:00 PM Subscribe
The FBI kept files on the Monkees—and Mickey Dolenz wants to see them. The band’s last surviving member is suing the FBI, which monitored the group in the 1960s. “We know the mid-to-late 1960s saw the FBI surveil Hollywood anti-war advocates, and the Monkees were in the thick of things,” Dolenz’s attorney, Mark Zaid, tells BBC News. “This lawsuit seeks to expose why the FBI was monitoring the Monkees and its individual members.”
Mickey was never my favorite Monkee, but this is really great, and great of him to do. It's truly a public service to see what criteria the FBI used in the hippie era, even if it was 55 years ago.
posted by rhizome at 12:27 PM on September 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 12:27 PM on September 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
Mickey was my favorite Monkee. Good for him.
posted by Splunge at 12:43 PM on September 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Splunge at 12:43 PM on September 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
I dunno, this seems kinda like a last gasp play for a legacy of countercultural relevance - I mean not's not like the Monkees were ever in the pantheon of dangerous 60's revolutionaries, or that their brand of sickly sweet pop provoked anti-authority activism. No one's confusing The Monkees with Jefferson Airplane and Dylan's old adage is still true: You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 1:01 PM on September 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by thecincinnatikid at 1:01 PM on September 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
If he wanted a last gasp play for a legacy of countercultural relevance, he'd probably be better off rereleasing Head.
posted by box at 1:08 PM on September 10, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by box at 1:08 PM on September 10, 2022 [16 favorites]
their brand of sickly sweet pop
Any band beloved by both John Lennon and Johnny Rotten had to be doing something right.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:29 PM on September 10, 2022 [57 favorites]
Any band beloved by both John Lennon and Johnny Rotten had to be doing something right.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:29 PM on September 10, 2022 [57 favorites]
Well, it was a mantra during those days, when tracing scandalous behavior.. "Follow the Monkee."
posted by hippybear at 1:36 PM on September 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:36 PM on September 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
Well, people did say they monkey around...
Hey, hey, we're the monkees,
You never know where we'll be found.
So you'd better get ready,
We may be comin' to your town.
Sounds like a threat to me!
posted by BlueHorse at 1:39 PM on September 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
Hey, hey, we're the monkees,
You never know where we'll be found.
So you'd better get ready,
We may be comin' to your town.
Sounds like a threat to me!
posted by BlueHorse at 1:39 PM on September 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
I saw the Monkees as a parent/evangelical approved, corporation concocted, non-threatening substitute for the Beatles, and I used to laugh myself practically sick over them.
But my far more musically sophisticated partner loved them, and this completes my comeuppance.
posted by jamjam at 1:58 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
But my far more musically sophisticated partner loved them, and this completes my comeuppance.
posted by jamjam at 1:58 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
I loved The Monkees TV show in reruns when I was a kid and this blew my tiny li'l 9 year old mind when I first saw it. WHAT IN THE HECK IS GOING ON HERE, EH?!
But we all know what's in those FBI files, right? "A group of long haired degenerate rock n roll beatnicks intent on pushing communism, drugs and sex on our nation's youth." And then a bunch of pictures of them smoking weed. Probably with John Lennon and some Black people. What else could be in there? Unless they were secretly dealing arms to anti-imperialist organizations around the world, I don't think there will be any surprises for us.
posted by NoMich at 2:32 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
But we all know what's in those FBI files, right? "A group of long haired degenerate rock n roll beatnicks intent on pushing communism, drugs and sex on our nation's youth." And then a bunch of pictures of them smoking weed. Probably with John Lennon and some Black people. What else could be in there? Unless they were secretly dealing arms to anti-imperialist organizations around the world, I don't think there will be any surprises for us.
posted by NoMich at 2:32 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
...the lounge area built for The Monkees during the filming of their television show. Between takes, they grew bored and wandered around the studio, often getting lost, so Screen Gems brass added a special room next to the soundstage. They would spend time there studying their scripts, composing, and playing music, and smoking (which they were forbidden to do on the set). Colored lights were added to the room to page whomever was needed on the set.
And by smoking, it meant weed, of course.
posted by Splunge at 2:39 PM on September 10, 2022
And by smoking, it meant weed, of course.
posted by Splunge at 2:39 PM on September 10, 2022
Well, it's like... one of The Monkees' biggest hits, Last Train To Clarksville, is about a Vietnam draftee telling his girlfriend to meet him as he departs for the biggest intake center for draftees to the military during the war. Really, with the outlier being that one Neil Diamond song they covered, much of The Monkees' catalog is really cheerful rock music with some of the bleakest lyrics you can imagine. I was shocked when I first really sat down and looked at them.
posted by hippybear at 2:42 PM on September 10, 2022 [51 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:42 PM on September 10, 2022 [51 favorites]
As a young gen X guy, I used to think The Monkees were kind of lame sell outs. But honestly the more I learn about them the more I respect their work. Fun music too!
posted by SaltySalticid at 2:49 PM on September 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 2:49 PM on September 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm guessing the folks talking about the Monkees being saccharine ripoffs never watched the movie Head.
posted by queensissy at 2:57 PM on September 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by queensissy at 2:57 PM on September 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
Field Report: Informants advise that MONKEES are consistently occupied with singing, thus unavailable for disparagement. Note to crosscheck bureau records accordingly.
posted by dr_dank at 2:58 PM on September 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 2:58 PM on September 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
"Stepping Stone" rocks. Great power pop; The Stooges meet The 1910 Fruitgum Company and have a baby.
You could argue that they used pop as an entrance drug to dissent and questioning life as a child of the bourgeoisie. Or it could be neato pop for the kids.
posted by Richard Upton Pickman at 3:08 PM on September 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
You could argue that they used pop as an entrance drug to dissent and questioning life as a child of the bourgeoisie. Or it could be neato pop for the kids.
posted by Richard Upton Pickman at 3:08 PM on September 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
I thought it was interesting enough to post just because I feel like even though there are probably no surprises in it and he knows that, at his age and being the last survivor of the group, he'd just like to really have it out there in black and white. I can totally understand that feeling.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 3:10 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by kitten kaboodle at 3:10 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
Unless they were secretly dealing arms to anti-imperialist organizations around the world, I don't think there will be any surprises for us.
I think the real question is how extensive was the FBI’s surveillance of a corporate music act on a major network, and what can be inferred about the lengths they went through with other major acts?
posted by Jon_Evil at 3:12 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
I think the real question is how extensive was the FBI’s surveillance of a corporate music act on a major network, and what can be inferred about the lengths they went through with other major acts?
posted by Jon_Evil at 3:12 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
Well, Billie Holliday suffered greatly at the hands of government investigations into her life. John Lennon was fighting for his residency in the US at the time of his death, I believe. There are no inferences that need to be made -- much of this is already established fact.
posted by hippybear at 3:22 PM on September 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:22 PM on September 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
yes, the jefferson airplane were such revolutionaries - when they weren't doing radio ads for levi's
posted by pyramid termite at 3:27 PM on September 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 3:27 PM on September 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
>I mean not's not like the Monkees were ever in the pantheon of dangerous 60's revolutionaries, or that their brand of sickly sweet pop provoked anti-authority activism. No one's confusing The Monkees with Jefferson Airplane and Dylan's old adage is still true: You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
I'm not sure what distinction you're making between the Monkees and Jefferson Airplane, but I dispute it. Being a "dangerous revolutionary" in your marketing materials is different from being an actual dangerous revolutionary.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 3:29 PM on September 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
I'm not sure what distinction you're making between the Monkees and Jefferson Airplane, but I dispute it. Being a "dangerous revolutionary" in your marketing materials is different from being an actual dangerous revolutionary.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 3:29 PM on September 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
"One time it was me, [Eric] Clapton, [Paul] McCartney and [George] Harrison sitting in a restaurant in England," Nesmith recalled. "This was in the '60s and everybody was psychedelic, we had funny glasses and strange shirts. And John [Lennon] came in, and he had a tape recorder. He says, 'You’ve got to hear this.'
He played me 'Hey Joe' by Jimi Hendrix, and everybody was just reverential," Nesmith continued. "I mean, the guy had done it."
That night, Nesmith went back to his hotel to tell bandmate Micky Dolenz about Hendrix, only to find out that Dolenz had seen Hendrix perform in a club that night and hired him on the spot to open for the Monkees on their U.S. tour. Suffice to say, the pairing didn't last long."
"Edgar, The Monkees are consorting with Beatles"
"I thought we had them under our thumb."
"no, you tried that with the Rolling Stones"
"damn it Clyde, get Pat Boone on the phone"
"But Edgar...'
posted by clavdivs at 3:45 PM on September 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
He played me 'Hey Joe' by Jimi Hendrix, and everybody was just reverential," Nesmith continued. "I mean, the guy had done it."
That night, Nesmith went back to his hotel to tell bandmate Micky Dolenz about Hendrix, only to find out that Dolenz had seen Hendrix perform in a club that night and hired him on the spot to open for the Monkees on their U.S. tour. Suffice to say, the pairing didn't last long."
"Edgar, The Monkees are consorting with Beatles"
"I thought we had them under our thumb."
"no, you tried that with the Rolling Stones"
"damn it Clyde, get Pat Boone on the phone"
"But Edgar...'
posted by clavdivs at 3:45 PM on September 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
I'm not sure what distinction you're making between the Monkees and Jefferson Airplane, but I dispute it. Being a "dangerous revolutionary" in your marketing materials is different from being an actual dangerous revolutionary.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 3:29 PM on September 10 [2 favorites +] [!]
The distinction I'm making is the Airplane were openly calling for revolution at a time when there was legitimate concern in both common society and in government/intel communities that that was an actual possibility, however unlikely, that had to be suppressed. If you don't grok the the potential fear levels generated in those moments by Volunteers vs More Of The Monkees I dunno what to all ya.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 5:08 PM on September 10, 2022
posted by Sing Or Swim at 3:29 PM on September 10 [2 favorites +] [!]
The distinction I'm making is the Airplane were openly calling for revolution at a time when there was legitimate concern in both common society and in government/intel communities that that was an actual possibility, however unlikely, that had to be suppressed. If you don't grok the the potential fear levels generated in those moments by Volunteers vs More Of The Monkees I dunno what to all ya.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 5:08 PM on September 10, 2022
Woof, yeah, it’s crazy to me reading these comments from people who have obviously never seen Head. Or listened to Mommy and Daddy.
posted by Ruki at 5:47 PM on September 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 5:47 PM on September 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
He was a dick to Nardwuar. He also claimed in the same interview that there was no more counter-culture. I don't like him.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:48 PM on September 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:48 PM on September 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
So by the time Volunteers came out, The Monkees had already had 5 multi-platinum albums, left television, released Head, and had Peter leave the band. The album that Volunteers was mostly likely directly competing with would have been The Monkey's Present, their second post-Turk album, which was released about a month before Volunteers in 1969.
posted by hippybear at 6:08 PM on September 10, 2022
posted by hippybear at 6:08 PM on September 10, 2022
If you don't grok the the potential fear levels generated in those moments by Volunteers vs More Of The Monkees I dunno what to all ya.
you could try getting the timeline straight to begin with - more of the monkees was 1967 - volunteers was 1969 and yes, that was a long period of time in that decade
just going from what jefferson airplane did from 1969 on reveals at first, a suspicious lack of revolutionary activity, and then a very suspicious tendency to fit into the rather reactionary and somewhat fascist pop of the 1980s - why, they even seemed to think they had built a city with rock and roll
the monkees may have been commercial, they may have been pandering at times, but i dare you to find a song of theirs that panders more than "we build that city" - or "revolution" for that matter
frank zappa may have been amused by the monkees and their dilemma of wanting to be real rock and roll musicians while playing for teenyboppers, but he still appeared on their program - do you really think he would have done something like that with jefferson airplane? - he probably thought they were phonies
the first record i ever bought for myself was meet the monkees - i liked it - i STILL DO
my favorite airplane album is after bathing at baxter's and i happen to think that their performance at woodstock was probably the 3rd best after sly and hendrix and it was also punk as fuck at times - jorma and jack were tearing it up
people really don't understand the 60s unless they lived through it - if you had spent your sundays in the house listening to beautiful music on wood-fm and then rem wall and the green valley boys, ted mack's amateur hour and ed sullivan, you'd understand how different and fresh even the monkees seemed to be compared to that
(actually rem wall wasn't that bad - they opened with steel guitar rag and played some other nice western swing like things)
*listens to marvin gaye and tammi terrell to escape all this*
posted by pyramid termite at 6:38 PM on September 10, 2022 [30 favorites]
you could try getting the timeline straight to begin with - more of the monkees was 1967 - volunteers was 1969 and yes, that was a long period of time in that decade
just going from what jefferson airplane did from 1969 on reveals at first, a suspicious lack of revolutionary activity, and then a very suspicious tendency to fit into the rather reactionary and somewhat fascist pop of the 1980s - why, they even seemed to think they had built a city with rock and roll
the monkees may have been commercial, they may have been pandering at times, but i dare you to find a song of theirs that panders more than "we build that city" - or "revolution" for that matter
frank zappa may have been amused by the monkees and their dilemma of wanting to be real rock and roll musicians while playing for teenyboppers, but he still appeared on their program - do you really think he would have done something like that with jefferson airplane? - he probably thought they were phonies
the first record i ever bought for myself was meet the monkees - i liked it - i STILL DO
my favorite airplane album is after bathing at baxter's and i happen to think that their performance at woodstock was probably the 3rd best after sly and hendrix and it was also punk as fuck at times - jorma and jack were tearing it up
people really don't understand the 60s unless they lived through it - if you had spent your sundays in the house listening to beautiful music on wood-fm and then rem wall and the green valley boys, ted mack's amateur hour and ed sullivan, you'd understand how different and fresh even the monkees seemed to be compared to that
(actually rem wall wasn't that bad - they opened with steel guitar rag and played some other nice western swing like things)
*listens to marvin gaye and tammi terrell to escape all this*
posted by pyramid termite at 6:38 PM on September 10, 2022 [30 favorites]
The Monkees are like Moriarty in those episodes of Star Trek the Next Generation. Someone asked the computer to simulate a pop band that could rival all the counter-cultural bands of the day for attention and fame without realizing that the only way to do that was to create a really good counter-cultural pop band.
Yes, The Monkees were manufactured, but the producers hadn't yet learned how to manufacture bands. It's pretty telling that Don Kirschner's next project after the Monkees was to produce The Archies, an entirely fictional band that had vocals and music recorded by session musicians and existed only in animation.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:57 PM on September 10, 2022 [29 favorites]
Yes, The Monkees were manufactured, but the producers hadn't yet learned how to manufacture bands. It's pretty telling that Don Kirschner's next project after the Monkees was to produce The Archies, an entirely fictional band that had vocals and music recorded by session musicians and existed only in animation.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:57 PM on September 10, 2022 [29 favorites]
I blame Darby Slick.
posted by clavdivs at 6:58 PM on September 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 6:58 PM on September 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Head is probably the best, and most subversive, rock and roll movie ever made. If it makes any significant portion of their FBI files, I'll have to give those g-men some credit. Even if almost nobody saw it when it came out and they'd been written off by then.
But then, why should I speak, since I know nothing?
posted by 2N2222 at 7:41 PM on September 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
But then, why should I speak, since I know nothing?
posted by 2N2222 at 7:41 PM on September 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
In a better world Grace Slick got tired of the degenerate hippies she was surrounded with, moved to New York and joined the Velvet Underground after they kicked John Cale out.
We would have got (maybe) one glorious, terrifying album before she beat Lou Reed to death with a half empty whisky bottle and went on the run with Mo Tucker, but what an album that would have been.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:08 PM on September 10, 2022 [18 favorites]
We would have got (maybe) one glorious, terrifying album before she beat Lou Reed to death with a half empty whisky bottle and went on the run with Mo Tucker, but what an album that would have been.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:08 PM on September 10, 2022 [18 favorites]
Oh, and The Monkees were excellent and I wish Mr Dolenz many happy hours of laughing at his no doubt huge file.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:11 PM on September 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:11 PM on September 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
in a real good world jack and jorma would have left even earlier and persuaded janis joplin to be their singer - this isn't baseless speculation- the typewriter tape shows how compatible they would have been
posted by pyramid termite at 8:22 PM on September 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by pyramid termite at 8:22 PM on September 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean not's not like the Monkees were ever in the pantheon of dangerous 60's revolutionaries, or that their brand of sickly sweet pop provoked anti-authority activism.
I was seven or eight at the time of their initial TV popularity and found them an ideal gateway drug to the Beatles and revolutionary realms beyond. Or on preview ...
You could argue that they used pop as an entrance drug to dissent and questioning life as a child of the bourgeoisie.
There's the stuff you love as a child and the stuff you can still love as an adult, perhaps for different reasons. The Monkees and the Adam West Batman both have this quality for me. Rockin' the free world.
posted by philip-random at 8:39 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
I was seven or eight at the time of their initial TV popularity and found them an ideal gateway drug to the Beatles and revolutionary realms beyond. Or on preview ...
You could argue that they used pop as an entrance drug to dissent and questioning life as a child of the bourgeoisie.
There's the stuff you love as a child and the stuff you can still love as an adult, perhaps for different reasons. The Monkees and the Adam West Batman both have this quality for me. Rockin' the free world.
posted by philip-random at 8:39 PM on September 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
But then, why should I speak, since I know nothing?
I see what you did there, and I love it.
My VHS copy of Head was well used, as I would make all my friends watch it eventually. Watching it while on an acid trip while also having to narrate the visuals to my boyfriend at the time, who is blind, was an experience that I’ve never forgotten. Like having to say out loud what happens at the end of the theme song.
posted by Ruki at 9:02 PM on September 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
I see what you did there, and I love it.
My VHS copy of Head was well used, as I would make all my friends watch it eventually. Watching it while on an acid trip while also having to narrate the visuals to my boyfriend at the time, who is blind, was an experience that I’ve never forgotten. Like having to say out loud what happens at the end of the theme song.
posted by Ruki at 9:02 PM on September 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
much of The Monkees' catalog is really cheerful rock music with some of the bleakest lyrics you can imagine
I have a weakness for pop rock songs covered as soft, melancholy ballads. Daydream Believer is one song I've found that works quite well for this.
posted by dephlogisticated at 11:35 PM on September 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
I have a weakness for pop rock songs covered as soft, melancholy ballads. Daydream Believer is one song I've found that works quite well for this.
posted by dephlogisticated at 11:35 PM on September 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
The Monkees is apparently available as full episodes on YouTube. Not otherwise available for streaming, nor does my cable service find a listing for it.
I do not find full episodes of The Banana Splits online. There are DVDs.
posted by neuron at 8:57 AM on September 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do not find full episodes of The Banana Splits online. There are DVDs.
posted by neuron at 8:57 AM on September 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Not to derail, but any Lancelot Link, Secret Chimp fans here?
This is have on DVD
posted by terrapin at 10:14 AM on September 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is have on DVD
posted by terrapin at 10:14 AM on September 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
The Monkees invited Jimi Hendrix to be their opening act
In 1967
Jimi Hendrix opened for the Monkees in North Carolina & Florida (among other places)
Now, y'all seem to have a pretty clear image of what typical Monkees fans were like - pre-teens & teenage girls - many of whom would've been accompanied to the concert by their parents. Now picture that audience being exposed to Jimi Hendrix...
posted by cheshyre at 10:31 AM on September 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
In 1967
Jimi Hendrix opened for the Monkees in North Carolina & Florida (among other places)
Now, y'all seem to have a pretty clear image of what typical Monkees fans were like - pre-teens & teenage girls - many of whom would've been accompanied to the concert by their parents. Now picture that audience being exposed to Jimi Hendrix...
posted by cheshyre at 10:31 AM on September 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think the real question is how extensive was the FBI’s surveillance of a corporate music act on a major network, and what can be inferred about the lengths they went through with other major acts?
Sounds like make work to me. Surveille, report, file, forget. Repeat as needed. Same as it ever was.
Now picture that audience being exposed to Jimi Hendrix...
I gather they were uninterested. Someplace there's an interview I think with Dolenz describing the situation. Hendrix launches Foxy Lady and the crowd helps him out:
"Foxy!"
"Davy!"
"Foxy!"
"Davy!"
I like to think he wasn't embellishing the story. (I failed to find the interview, but this and this are entertaining.)
posted by BWA at 10:47 AM on September 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sounds like make work to me. Surveille, report, file, forget. Repeat as needed. Same as it ever was.
Now picture that audience being exposed to Jimi Hendrix...
I gather they were uninterested. Someplace there's an interview I think with Dolenz describing the situation. Hendrix launches Foxy Lady and the crowd helps him out:
"Foxy!"
"Davy!"
"Foxy!"
"Davy!"
I like to think he wasn't embellishing the story. (I failed to find the interview, but this and this are entertaining.)
posted by BWA at 10:47 AM on September 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Well, I recall, not too many years ago, at either the all-city or northern division swim meet here in Seattle. They had a CD of various versions of the Star Spangled Banner, and probably had it on shuffle play. Before the meet, "all rise for our national anthem"...
It was the Hendrix version lololol...
People in the crowd were not amused.
posted by Windopaene at 10:49 AM on September 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
It was the Hendrix version lololol...
People in the crowd were not amused.
posted by Windopaene at 10:49 AM on September 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Isn't this really much different than what FSB (another 3-letter acronym) is doing right now, harrassing dissidents? Anyone who has brain capacity to think by him/herself is targeted. While "polititics" in US and USSR have namely been different (capitalist/communist) the implementation of chosen political method has been slightly similar over the years. Gulag in US has not been so visible, it has been called "persecution of communists" but if found communist, siberia has been american reality too.
Times do change, timing of implementation of various harrassing implementations has varied over time and east/west geography but I see similar techniques having been used in both sides but not exactly same way in same time. I was discussing with my friend from middle east, he said that what it comes to human rights there is currently some 600 years of difference in understanding of human rights between Europe and middle east. Same difference could exists also between Russia and rest of the Europe, it just might be less than 600 years, maybe 100-200 years.
posted by costello at 10:58 AM on September 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Times do change, timing of implementation of various harrassing implementations has varied over time and east/west geography but I see similar techniques having been used in both sides but not exactly same way in same time. I was discussing with my friend from middle east, he said that what it comes to human rights there is currently some 600 years of difference in understanding of human rights between Europe and middle east. Same difference could exists also between Russia and rest of the Europe, it just might be less than 600 years, maybe 100-200 years.
posted by costello at 10:58 AM on September 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
"The Monkees as a television program allowed this new counterculture ideology to sneak into the homes of middle class teens around the country by slipping jokes about President Johnson’s War on Poverty and the Domino Theory of Communist Containment between their silly, vaudeville-styled adventures."
— Why The Monkees Matter : Teenagers, Television and American Pop Culture, Rosanne Welch
posted by cheshyre at 11:51 AM on September 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
— Why The Monkees Matter : Teenagers, Television and American Pop Culture, Rosanne Welch
posted by cheshyre at 11:51 AM on September 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Let's not forget "Pleasant Valley Sunday", as bleak a condemnation of post-WWII suburban ennui as you'll find anywhere, and probably an inspiration for Pleasantville. (Written by Carole King and Gerry Goffin, and here's King's original demo.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:30 PM on September 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:30 PM on September 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
When I hear people dismissing the Monkees, I know they don't actually know them in depth.
The guys were restricted by Screen Gems from speaking out about the war, but James Frawley had trained them in improvisation before filming began, it's well-known from surviving scripts that the scripts and the finished episodes often have only a loose relation to each other, and the series is *loaded* with all the subversion the four of them could get by NBC's Standards & Practices.
The episodes recently got wiped from YT at the same time a lot of content got pulled from streaming services, so the quality of what's available is not as good as it was several weeks ago, but I'd encourage skeptics to take a look at these highly-regarded episodes and then watch HEAD, which is the four of them tearing to pieces the phenomenon that made them famous, the near-Faustian bargain they'd come to realize they'd made with their lives, consorting with a variety of other entertainment pariahs of the moment.
Mijacogeo/The Frodis Caper [Micky wrote this, the last episode of the series]
The Devil and Peter Tork [consistently voted as one of the couple best episodes by fans; this was held from broadcast for months and months because Standards & Practices had problems with it]
Fairy Tale [the other consistent fan favorite and a known favorite of the guys; the script survives and demonstrates how much they shaped this episode]
Monkee Mayor [my personal favorite]
The Monkees Watch Their Feet [some of the best subversion in the series]
posted by jocelmeow at 1:05 PM on September 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
The guys were restricted by Screen Gems from speaking out about the war, but James Frawley had trained them in improvisation before filming began, it's well-known from surviving scripts that the scripts and the finished episodes often have only a loose relation to each other, and the series is *loaded* with all the subversion the four of them could get by NBC's Standards & Practices.
The episodes recently got wiped from YT at the same time a lot of content got pulled from streaming services, so the quality of what's available is not as good as it was several weeks ago, but I'd encourage skeptics to take a look at these highly-regarded episodes and then watch HEAD, which is the four of them tearing to pieces the phenomenon that made them famous, the near-Faustian bargain they'd come to realize they'd made with their lives, consorting with a variety of other entertainment pariahs of the moment.
Mijacogeo/The Frodis Caper [Micky wrote this, the last episode of the series]
The Devil and Peter Tork [consistently voted as one of the couple best episodes by fans; this was held from broadcast for months and months because Standards & Practices had problems with it]
Fairy Tale [the other consistent fan favorite and a known favorite of the guys; the script survives and demonstrates how much they shaped this episode]
Monkee Mayor [my personal favorite]
The Monkees Watch Their Feet [some of the best subversion in the series]
posted by jocelmeow at 1:05 PM on September 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
P.S. From Timothy Leary's The Politics of Ecstasy, pp. 173-4:
posted by jocelmeow at 1:06 PM on September 11, 2022 [27 favorites]
Hollywood executives decide to invent and market an American version of the Beatles the early, preprophetic, cute, yehyeh Beatles. Got it? They audition a hallful of candidates and type-cast four cute kids. Hire some songwriters. Wire up the Hooper-rating computer. What do the screaming teeny-boppers want? Crank out the product and promote it. Feed the great consumer monster what it thinks it wants, plastic, syrupy, tasty, marshmallow-filled, chocolate-coated, Saran-wrapped, and sell it. No controversy, no protest. No thinking strange, unique thoughts. No offending Mom and Dad and the advertisers. Make it silly, sun-tanned, grinning ABC-TV.
And what happened? The same thing that happened to the Beatles. The four young Monkees weren't fooled for a moment. They went along with the system but didn't buy it. Like all the beautiful young sons of the new age--Peter Fonda and Robert Walker and young John Barrymore and young Steinbeck and the wise young Hitchcocks--the Monkees use the new energies to sing the new songs and pass on the new message.
The Monkees' television show, for example. Oh, you thought that was silly teen-age entertainment? Don't be fooled. While it lasted, it was a classic Sufi put-on. An early-Christian electronic satire. A mystic-magic show. A jolly Buddha laugh at hypocrisy. At early evening kiddie-time on Monday the Monkees would rush through a parody drama, burlesquing the very shows that glue Mom and Dad to the set during prime time. Spoofing the movies and the violence and the down-heavy-conflict-emotion themes that fascinate the middle-aged.
And woven into the fast-moving psychedelic stream of action were the prophetic, holy, challenging words. [Micky] was rapping quickly, dropping literary names, making scholarly references; then the sudden psychedelic switch of the reality channel. He looked straight at the camera, right into your living room, and upleveled the comedy by saying: "Pretty good talking for a long-haired weirdo, huh, Mr. and Mrs. America?" And then -- zap. Flash. Back to the innocuous comedy.
posted by jocelmeow at 1:06 PM on September 11, 2022 [27 favorites]
I mean, Peter DID sell his soul to the Devil. But the scariest part was that you couldn't say *bleep* on television.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:37 PM on September 11, 2022
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:37 PM on September 11, 2022
Anyway, I think the fact that the Monkees were more innocuous than some other groups and still managed to have an FBI file is kind of the whole point. If I found out my Grandma had an FBI file, I'd really like to know what made the FBI think that was a worthwhile endeavor.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:39 PM on September 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:39 PM on September 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
They literally were NOT more innocuous. They had more influence than many other groups and they sold millions of albums The image of The Monkees being some kind of vapid rock version of Lawrence Welk is what a lot of people in this thread are arguing against, because they were really subversive.
posted by hippybear at 4:01 PM on September 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:01 PM on September 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
If I found out my Grandma had an FBI file, I'd really like to know what made the FBI think that was a worthwhile endeavor.
My mom has an FBI file. She was shopping on Federal Hill in Providence, ran into a friend of hers, and was introduced to a friend of her friend.
posted by Ruki at 4:06 PM on September 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
My mom has an FBI file. She was shopping on Federal Hill in Providence, ran into a friend of hers, and was introduced to a friend of her friend.
posted by Ruki at 4:06 PM on September 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
You could argue that they used pop as an entrance drug to dissent and questioning life as a child of the bourgeoisie.
As someone who was 7 and 8 during The Monkees' TV heyday, I can vouch for this, absolutely. What I most remember now is the pure joy of watching all that chaos which was only just starting to bleed over into other areas of pop culture. And remember that what culture did get into our lives at that time was much more regulated than now, with a few TV channels, movies, magazines and AM radio being the sum of it unless you were an adventurous college kid.
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:56 PM on September 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
As someone who was 7 and 8 during The Monkees' TV heyday, I can vouch for this, absolutely. What I most remember now is the pure joy of watching all that chaos which was only just starting to bleed over into other areas of pop culture. And remember that what culture did get into our lives at that time was much more regulated than now, with a few TV channels, movies, magazines and AM radio being the sum of it unless you were an adventurous college kid.
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:56 PM on September 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
They literally were NOT more innocuous.
Not more innocuous than whom?
I chose my wording very carefully: "more innocuous than some other groups" doesn't mean they were completely innocuous. Unless you're arguing that there was absolutely no other group in the world less innocuous than the Monkees, we're not disagreeing here.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:24 PM on September 11, 2022
Not more innocuous than whom?
I chose my wording very carefully: "more innocuous than some other groups" doesn't mean they were completely innocuous. Unless you're arguing that there was absolutely no other group in the world less innocuous than the Monkees, we're not disagreeing here.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:24 PM on September 11, 2022
More innocuous than the MC5, less innocuous than Up With People.
posted by box at 5:57 PM on September 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by box at 5:57 PM on September 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Anyway, I think the fact that the Monkees were more innocuous than some other groups and still managed to have an FBI file is kind of the whole point.
Precisely. How innocuous the Monkees were or weren't, whether you compare them to other groups or no, has nothing to do with why the FBI had a file on them. This wasn't today's FBI, who focuses on actual service to the public (by searching and siezing documents that have gotten into the hands of a rogue former president, for instance), this was J. Edgar Hoover's FBI, who kept tabs on anyone Hoover thought seemed kinda weird. Imagine if Marjorie Taylor Greene were running the FBI and decided how to deploy them - that's what they were like and that's the kind of stuff they were doing. Any performer active in the 1950s and 60s who was even slightly to the left of Lawrence Welk probably has an FBI file.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 PM on September 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Precisely. How innocuous the Monkees were or weren't, whether you compare them to other groups or no, has nothing to do with why the FBI had a file on them. This wasn't today's FBI, who focuses on actual service to the public (by searching and siezing documents that have gotten into the hands of a rogue former president, for instance), this was J. Edgar Hoover's FBI, who kept tabs on anyone Hoover thought seemed kinda weird. Imagine if Marjorie Taylor Greene were running the FBI and decided how to deploy them - that's what they were like and that's the kind of stuff they were doing. Any performer active in the 1950s and 60s who was even slightly to the left of Lawrence Welk probably has an FBI file.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 PM on September 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
There's an old urban legend--which may actually be true--that the FBI was/is so paranoid, that if you used the FOIA to request their file on you, and you didn't have one, they'd start one just to figure out why you requested it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:03 PM on September 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:03 PM on September 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Any performer active in the 1950s and 60s who was even slightly to the left of Lawrence Welk probably has an FBI file.
I think this is undoubtedly true.
However, both Lawrence Welk's parents were immigrants from Odessa, Russia.
It seems very likely that Welk also did have an FBI file.
posted by jamjam at 9:53 PM on September 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think this is undoubtedly true.
However, both Lawrence Welk's parents were immigrants from Odessa, Russia.
It seems very likely that Welk also did have an FBI file.
posted by jamjam at 9:53 PM on September 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
We've seen Head as an extra at MST Club twice! One of the writers was Jack Nicholson.
posted by JHarris at 1:31 AM on September 12, 2022
posted by JHarris at 1:31 AM on September 12, 2022
Was Odes(s)a ever in Russia proper, or just the Russian Empire/USSR with the rest of Ukraine?
posted by acb at 6:41 AM on September 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 6:41 AM on September 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
If I found out my Grandma had an FBI file, I'd really like to know what made the FBI think that was a worthwhile endeavor.
I think a lot more people have FBI files than we realize, or at the very least has been "joking on the square" since J Edgar Hoover. I knew someone who got a job with our congressperson's office, and nearly failed the background check because they, in their early 20s, already had a record with the FBI. It was some convoluted story about their dad's job in agriculture and Canada and (pre-9/11) terrorism and I don't remember all the details, but the congressperson got it cleared up. But, the surprise of wanting a career in politics and finding out the FBI has been watching you for a decade already.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:11 AM on September 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think a lot more people have FBI files than we realize, or at the very least has been "joking on the square" since J Edgar Hoover. I knew someone who got a job with our congressperson's office, and nearly failed the background check because they, in their early 20s, already had a record with the FBI. It was some convoluted story about their dad's job in agriculture and Canada and (pre-9/11) terrorism and I don't remember all the details, but the congressperson got it cleared up. But, the surprise of wanting a career in politics and finding out the FBI has been watching you for a decade already.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:11 AM on September 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think a lot more people have FBI files than we realize, or at the very least has been "joking on the square" since J Edgar Hoover.
Oh, totally - my high school BFFs and I were all into a lot of "activism" stuff, like Amnesty International, and we made an anti-nukes movie our senior year. We joked at the time that this probably meant that the FBI would be starting a file on us; I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find out that we were actually right.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:22 AM on September 12, 2022
Oh, totally - my high school BFFs and I were all into a lot of "activism" stuff, like Amnesty International, and we made an anti-nukes movie our senior year. We joked at the time that this probably meant that the FBI would be starting a file on us; I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find out that we were actually right.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:22 AM on September 12, 2022
Mickey wrote Randy Scouse Git, with the lyrics: "Why don't you be like me? Why don't you stop and see? Why don't you hate who I hate kill who I kill to be free? " in 1967, long before Head, and unlike Pleasant Valley Sunday and Last Train to Clarksville, which were written by others. I think those lyrics are pretty clear and moderately subversive for 1967, as is the title, which was renamed "Alternate Title" on the single.
It's musically kind of a ripoff of Stop Stop Stop by the Hollies, but that's a good song so it's worth ripping off.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's musically kind of a ripoff of Stop Stop Stop by the Hollies, but that's a good song so it's worth ripping off.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Really, with the outlier being that one Neil Diamond song they covered, much of The Monkees' catalog is really cheerful rock music with some of the bleakest lyrics you can imagine. I was shocked when I first really sat down and looked at them.
They did at least three Neil Diamond songs:
I'm a Believer
Look Out, Here Comes Tomorrow
A Little Bit Me, A Little Bit You
posted by Billiken at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2022
They did at least three Neil Diamond songs:
I'm a Believer
Look Out, Here Comes Tomorrow
A Little Bit Me, A Little Bit You
posted by Billiken at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2022
I think those lyrics are pretty clear and moderately subversive for 1967, as is the title, which was renamed "Alternate Title" on the single.
For the uninitiated: "Randy Scouse Git" basically translates to "Horny Liverpudlian Jerk".
Or, so said Peter Tork in an interview I remember seeing in the 1980s.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:30 AM on September 12, 2022
For the uninitiated: "Randy Scouse Git" basically translates to "Horny Liverpudlian Jerk".
Or, so said Peter Tork in an interview I remember seeing in the 1980s.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:30 AM on September 12, 2022
“Randy Scouse Git” comes from the British sitcom that inspired All in the Family - it’s what the father would call the son-in-law, like Archie Bunker and “Meathead.”
A couple of years ago Micky did a great acoustic version with Christian Nesmith and Circe Link; it’s on YouTube (I’d link but I’m on mobile with a wonky signal.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:23 AM on September 12, 2022
A couple of years ago Micky did a great acoustic version with Christian Nesmith and Circe Link; it’s on YouTube (I’d link but I’m on mobile with a wonky signal.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:23 AM on September 12, 2022
My battery’s too low to go check, but I’m pretty sure we did save the Texas Prairie Chicken.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:35 AM on September 12, 2022
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:35 AM on September 12, 2022
I was born on the tail-end of Gen-X, so when I started watching The Monkees on TV (probably Nickelodeon?) as a lil kiddo in the early 80s, the subversiveness of the lyrics didn't register with me, even though I had them all memorized (even today I tend to hear song lyrics as musical sounds rather than words, which is why I'm often surprised when I actually pay attention to words that I've been singing along to for 20+ years!). By that time, it was Reagan's America, the contexts of Vietnam and cultural revolution were gone, and The Monkees were seen, I think, as a harmless nostalgia act for the kids (now becoming young parents) who had watched them in the late 60s. Anyway, they were pretty much my favorite band for a long time (until they were supplanted by They Might Be Giants) and the first concert I remember seeing, on their Reunion Tour (for the Pool it! album, I think?) at AstroWorld in Houston -- with Weird Al as the opening act! It wasn't until several years later -- high school, maybe -- when I heard about and saw Head and it blew me away. By that time I had chucked the Monkees in the bin of kids' things that I was too cool and mature for, but that film renewed my appreciation for them. I haven't listened to much Monkees in the last decade or so, but when I have happened across a song, I could still sing every word. I may have to spend some time today listening to the old classics.
There's an old urban legend--which may actually be true--that the FBI was/is so paranoid, that if you used the FOIA to request their file on you, and you didn't have one, they'd start one just to figure out why you requested it.
On a lark, I sent an FOIA request on myself to the FBI maybe 20-25 years ago? Not really expecting to get anything because I'd never done anything worth their notice. After about a year (at least, if not longer), I received a letter from the FBI (which I still probably have tucked away somewhere) saying basically that they could not find any files on me but to please let them know of any criminal convictions I had that could help their search. So I like to imagine there's a file with my name and two slips of paper in it -- my letter and their response -- just sitting in some dank, dimly lit sub-basement in DC or Virginia.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:01 AM on September 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
There's an old urban legend--which may actually be true--that the FBI was/is so paranoid, that if you used the FOIA to request their file on you, and you didn't have one, they'd start one just to figure out why you requested it.
On a lark, I sent an FOIA request on myself to the FBI maybe 20-25 years ago? Not really expecting to get anything because I'd never done anything worth their notice. After about a year (at least, if not longer), I received a letter from the FBI (which I still probably have tucked away somewhere) saying basically that they could not find any files on me but to please let them know of any criminal convictions I had that could help their search. So I like to imagine there's a file with my name and two slips of paper in it -- my letter and their response -- just sitting in some dank, dimly lit sub-basement in DC or Virginia.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:01 AM on September 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
I never thought of it before but maybe it is kind of weird & unnecessary for the government to have literal file folders containing a life narrative about (in theory if not in practice) *all* of the individuals in the whole country. Like I'm used to hearing "So and so had an FBI file" but what about how many files there are - I never hear anyone saying "Is it actually ok that the government is maintaining an individual narrative about every person it hears about." Like, why? Are we sure this practice is providing value for the astronomical cost?
posted by bleep at 10:48 AM on September 12, 2022
posted by bleep at 10:48 AM on September 12, 2022
I received a letter from the FBI (which I still probably have tucked away somewhere) saying basically that they could not find any files on me but to please let them know of any criminal convictions I had that could help their search.
"Convicted? No."
"Never convicted."
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:54 PM on September 12, 2022
"Convicted? No."
"Never convicted."
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:54 PM on September 12, 2022
This wasn't today's FBI, who focuses on actual service to the public (by searching and siezing documents that have gotten into the hands of a rogue former president, for instance), this was J. Edgar Hoover's FBI, who kept tabs on anyone Hoover thought seemed kinda weird.
Defending Rights & Dissent (among others) take an opposing view.
posted by BWA at 4:30 AM on September 14, 2022
Defending Rights & Dissent (among others) take an opposing view.
posted by BWA at 4:30 AM on September 14, 2022
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Yes I'm quite sure them not following up on their obligations on things that will make them look bad is 100% due to them being busy with other things they don't care about that much.
posted by bleep at 12:25 PM on September 10, 2022 [24 favorites]