"People today begin to ask the question: what are we fighting for?"
October 6, 2022 1:42 PM Subscribe
"[I]nstead of supporting the media in Ukraine, the government is trying to tighten state control over journalists. Parliament has already voted in the first reading of the draft law “On the Media,” which subjects all Ukrainian media to one state regulator. This did not happen in the times of Kuchma or Yanukovych, when we had a dictatorship and authoritarian rule ... [T]oday Ukrainian society has just as easily accepted the biggest rollback of democracy in Ukraine, which the ruling parties justify with the war. All of this can end very badly for Ukrainian society, especially if the war drags on for years. Ukrainians will simply get used to living with an authoritarian style of governing society. "
- interview with Serhiy Guz, a journalist and trade union activist from Ukraine. More on anti-labor legislation in Ukraine.
This is not odd at all, especially given that Ukraine is fighting one of the most sophisticated disinformation operators in the world.
I have to say, “Russian meddling” certainly comes to mind here, trying to undermine the very government fighting to keep Ukraine whole and out of Putin’s grasp.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:30 PM on October 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
I have to say, “Russian meddling” certainly comes to mind here, trying to undermine the very government fighting to keep Ukraine whole and out of Putin’s grasp.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:30 PM on October 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don't have the in-depth knowledge of domestic Ukrainian politics to fully assess this. But I'm reminded of some alarmism I saw some weeks back about the Ukrainian government declaring martial law.
The thing is: Martial law literally means law during wartime, especially in a country that is itself the site of warfare. Normal rules don't, and can't, apply. In the case of Ukraine, they have, at least until recently, still had Russian sympathizers in government positions, even as Russia is invading the country and slaughtering its people.
The test will be how exactly the Zelensky government uses its enhanced powers... and what they do after hostilities cease.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:31 PM on October 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
The thing is: Martial law literally means law during wartime, especially in a country that is itself the site of warfare. Normal rules don't, and can't, apply. In the case of Ukraine, they have, at least until recently, still had Russian sympathizers in government positions, even as Russia is invading the country and slaughtering its people.
The test will be how exactly the Zelensky government uses its enhanced powers... and what they do after hostilities cease.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:31 PM on October 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
Come on, you can't at once say that a country restricting freedom of the press is normal in wartime and that the implication that information from Ukrainian sources might be unreliable or fabricated is merely Russian propaganda.
I don't fault Ukraine and NATO for producing and maintaining their own propaganda complexes to counter Russia's, but I do have to wonder why so many westerners refuse to believe that they exist.
posted by jy4m at 2:38 PM on October 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
I don't fault Ukraine and NATO for producing and maintaining their own propaganda complexes to counter Russia's, but I do have to wonder why so many westerners refuse to believe that they exist.
posted by jy4m at 2:38 PM on October 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
You can absolutely say restricting freedoms during wartime is normal... because it is normal. Not something to be done without commentary or without concern, but it is normal. You can also acknowledge that Russia is very good at disinformation and that this law helps protect against it. Those are not contradictary stances.
I don't see anyone saying Ukraine or NATO don't engage in propaganda. In fact, Ukraine's propaganda is incredibly skillful and is one reason that Ukraine has such wide support. That's because they are in a defensive war against a genocidal mobster with nukes.
posted by gwydapllew at 3:16 PM on October 6, 2022 [36 favorites]
I don't see anyone saying Ukraine or NATO don't engage in propaganda. In fact, Ukraine's propaganda is incredibly skillful and is one reason that Ukraine has such wide support. That's because they are in a defensive war against a genocidal mobster with nukes.
posted by gwydapllew at 3:16 PM on October 6, 2022 [36 favorites]
Like Patron the dog for instance.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:35 PM on October 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:35 PM on October 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ukraine certainly hasn't kept its hands clean during the conflict, either, there's been some very questionable behaviour at times. Nevertheless, we can acknowledge Ukraine isn't perfect while still saying they shouldn't have been invaded. I think there'll be a lot of pressure on Ukraine to roll back some of these laws and adopt new governance practices after the war is over, assuming they win.
posted by Merus at 3:39 PM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Merus at 3:39 PM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Looking at the second link, this does sound concerning & also like something raised as a concern from within Ukraine.
Assuming each of these details extracted from the piece are correct, I don't know that "politicians use extraordinary circumstances as cover for advancing legislation they've wanted to do but haven't felt safe doing" is that unusual of a claim.
* Law 5371, recently ratified, severely curtails labor protections & rescinds collective agreements
* It didn't originally contain a provision limiting it to the period of war/martial law, but was added last-minute under pressure from trade unions
* Said law was previously introduced in 2021, suggesting ideological interest before the current circumstances
* “the extreme over-regulation of employment contradicts the principles of market self-regulation [and] modern personnel management.” is a quote from a relevant member of a ruling political party
* Two other labor bills have been passed, one allowing employers to avoid paying combatants & the other legalizing zero-hour contracts, the latter not limited in duration
* A draft bill exists raising the workday cap to 12-hour days, and enacting at-will employment
* Martial law has prohibited the Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine from opposing said legislation in the way they are ordinarily entitled to, & which prevented the 2021 push for labor deregulation
If these details are inaccurate, that would be wonderful to hear in my opinion. And I'm sure one could argue "of course now isn't the time for labor strikes, either you're with us or against us!"; but by the same token I'm not sure now's the time to be making these sorts of wide-reaching changes either.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:40 PM on October 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Assuming each of these details extracted from the piece are correct, I don't know that "politicians use extraordinary circumstances as cover for advancing legislation they've wanted to do but haven't felt safe doing" is that unusual of a claim.
* Law 5371, recently ratified, severely curtails labor protections & rescinds collective agreements
* It didn't originally contain a provision limiting it to the period of war/martial law, but was added last-minute under pressure from trade unions
* Said law was previously introduced in 2021, suggesting ideological interest before the current circumstances
* “the extreme over-regulation of employment contradicts the principles of market self-regulation [and] modern personnel management.” is a quote from a relevant member of a ruling political party
* Two other labor bills have been passed, one allowing employers to avoid paying combatants & the other legalizing zero-hour contracts, the latter not limited in duration
* A draft bill exists raising the workday cap to 12-hour days, and enacting at-will employment
* Martial law has prohibited the Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine from opposing said legislation in the way they are ordinarily entitled to, & which prevented the 2021 push for labor deregulation
If these details are inaccurate, that would be wonderful to hear in my opinion. And I'm sure one could argue "of course now isn't the time for labor strikes, either you're with us or against us!"; but by the same token I'm not sure now's the time to be making these sorts of wide-reaching changes either.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:40 PM on October 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Rather than saying this is 'normal', I think it's more accurate to say it's 'commonplace'. It happens a lot in wartime. All of the changes put in place tend to be authoritarian, and it is not 100% clear (including with the benefit of hindsight) whether every change to the law was necessary or helpful. On top of that, a person can be a great wartime leader without being a particularly effective peacetime leader. Similarly, a governing group can win a war unexpectedly and still lose a peace.
posted by plonkee at 4:00 PM on October 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 4:00 PM on October 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
TFA seems very straight-forward and believable. One might think or say that this isn't the time to discuss labor rights, but it is definitely the time to discuss how Ukraine will look after the war.
To some extent, there will be EU frameworks to protect workers if Ukraine wants to join. But they won't be enough, and right now we are waiting to see if Hungary will get away with their blatant violations of EU law.
It seems to me that it is absolutely reasonable to both defend the right of Ukraine to determine their own destiny, and to be critical of the way Ukraine has handled that destiny since independence.
posted by mumimor at 4:15 PM on October 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
To some extent, there will be EU frameworks to protect workers if Ukraine wants to join. But they won't be enough, and right now we are waiting to see if Hungary will get away with their blatant violations of EU law.
It seems to me that it is absolutely reasonable to both defend the right of Ukraine to determine their own destiny, and to be critical of the way Ukraine has handled that destiny since independence.
posted by mumimor at 4:15 PM on October 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
I may be at fault for not excerpting the article properly when I posted it, but the situation described in the first link goes well beyond arguably justifiable wartime restrictions on the press. According to Guz, who is by no means pro-Putin, every single non-right-wing opposition party in Ukraine has been banned and closed down for alleged Russian ties for which no publicly available evidence has been provided, by a government which had a very public prewar objective of far-reaching neoliberal reform. I understand the desire to avoid criticizing Zelensky at a moment of crisis, but there are limits.
posted by derrinyet at 7:02 PM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by derrinyet at 7:02 PM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
And, again, Zelensky is a terrific and very charismatic wartime leader, but he's not a liberal. He has said that he envisions a future Ukraine as a "big Israel" where armed soldiers patrol supermarkets and cinemas. One of his most mediagenic senior advisors refers to gay people as "deviant." There are plenty of precedents for charismatic war hero leaders like de Gaulle or Pilsudski following up their victories with attempts to consolidate right-wing political power and repress the opposition. People like Guz see themselves as fighting for a democratic Ukraine and they're worth at least listening to.
posted by derrinyet at 7:20 PM on October 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by derrinyet at 7:20 PM on October 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
To be paranoid, is Guz vetted? He says he's a founder of the Independent Media Trade Union of Ukraine, but I don't see evidence of that after a few searches, other than self stated claims. The executive secretary of that organization, Oksana Vynnychuk, who is the named point of contact seems to barely exist online as does Guz. There's definitely some character (as in ASCII) issues as Guz's first name is spelled at least two different ways depending on the source and media bias against both hard left and former Soviet Union sources, but a journalist with 20+ years of experience in a huge country having just over 11,000 Google search results for his name sticks out as weird. Even the main link, which is ostensibly an interview of Guz is posted by Guz himself.
posted by Candleman at 7:54 PM on October 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 7:54 PM on October 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
To be paranoid, is Guz vetted? He says he's a founder of the Independent Media Trade Union of Ukraine, but I don't see evidence of that after a few searches, other than self stated claims. The executive secretary of that organization, Oksana Vynnychuk, who is the named point of contact seems to barely exist online as does Guz. There's definitely some character (as in ASCII) issues as Guz's first name is spelled at least two different ways depending on the source and media bias against both hard left and former Soviet Union sources, but a journalist with 20+ years of experience in a huge country having just over 11,000 Google search results for his name sticks out as weird. Even the main link, which is ostensibly an interview of Guz is posted by Guz himself.
Sorry, this is bizarre and borderline offensive—are you even searching in Ukrainian? Here is the NMPU's website, which gives a history of the organization going back to 2002 in which Guz plays a prominent role. LeftEast is a very respected platform that has covered Russia and Eastern Europe from an independent, anti-Putin leftist position for decades.
posted by derrinyet at 8:28 PM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
If this is repression it’s might be the lightest of all time. With the exception of Medvedchuk who was arrested and eventually released in a prisoner of exchange with Russia, they haven’t gone around arresting the other politicians and the old pro-Russian pols are by and large fine with disbanding the old pro-Russian parties . Zelensky’s biggest rival, Boyko, is free and talking with the media and on good personal terms with Zelensky.
Things changed pretty fast and a political party that was pro-Russia became unviable in Feb 2022.
posted by jmauro at 11:17 PM on October 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Things changed pretty fast and a political party that was pro-Russia became unviable in Feb 2022.
posted by jmauro at 11:17 PM on October 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Unviable" is a funny way of saying "made illegal in such a way that its viability can no longer be tested electorally, despite the fact that in the 2019 election it was the second place finisher and it condemned the Russian invasion." If China invaded the US and the Republicans "only" arrested Biden and banned the Democratic Party but didn't actually throw people into camps, I feel like it would be pretty uncontroversial that this would represent a significant and worrying rollback of democratic rights—which is what Guz is saying, not that Ukraine is a fascist state.
posted by derrinyet at 2:24 AM on October 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by derrinyet at 2:24 AM on October 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
this is bizarre and borderline offensive
Have you met Russian propaganda? One of the hallmarks of it is telling mostly the truth while still serving its purpose.
are you even searching in Ukrainian
No, I'm not, which I more or less stated in my comment. Searching for Сергій Гузь still has a tiny amount of results for a decades long journalist.
in which Guz plays a prominent role
From your own link, he has a minor mention in 2002. Is there something Google Translate is missing?
LeftEast is a very respected platform that has covered Russia and Eastern Europe from an independent, anti-Putin leftist position for decades.
By whom? It has a very small footprint and searching for Putin tagged stories on it has quite a few stories that fit Russian talking points while ostensibly opposing him. And the oldest post is just under a decade old.
posted by Candleman at 8:17 AM on October 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Have you met Russian propaganda? One of the hallmarks of it is telling mostly the truth while still serving its purpose.
are you even searching in Ukrainian
No, I'm not, which I more or less stated in my comment. Searching for Сергій Гузь still has a tiny amount of results for a decades long journalist.
in which Guz plays a prominent role
From your own link, he has a minor mention in 2002. Is there something Google Translate is missing?
LeftEast is a very respected platform that has covered Russia and Eastern Europe from an independent, anti-Putin leftist position for decades.
By whom? It has a very small footprint and searching for Putin tagged stories on it has quite a few stories that fit Russian talking points while ostensibly opposing him. And the oldest post is just under a decade old.
posted by Candleman at 8:17 AM on October 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
From your own link, he has a minor mention in 2002. Is there something Google Translate is missing?
He was one of the members of the founding committee in 2002 and acting chairman in 2005 and 2011, as the link says. If you want to argue that he's been a Putin plant the entire time or the organization is somehow fake (though it's true that it doesn't appear to be active since 2015), you need to provide evidence of some kind.
The broader point here is that this reflexive suspicion of anyone criticizing Zelensky and tarring them as a Putinist shill with zero, null, nada actual evidence is exactly the process by which democracy in Ukraine is being undermined, as Guz suggests. People on this site lived through this exact scenario after 9/11--is it really that hard to imagine this happening in another country?
posted by derrinyet at 9:08 AM on October 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
He was one of the members of the founding committee in 2002 and acting chairman in 2005 and 2011, as the link says. If you want to argue that he's been a Putin plant the entire time or the organization is somehow fake (though it's true that it doesn't appear to be active since 2015), you need to provide evidence of some kind.
The broader point here is that this reflexive suspicion of anyone criticizing Zelensky and tarring them as a Putinist shill with zero, null, nada actual evidence is exactly the process by which democracy in Ukraine is being undermined, as Guz suggests. People on this site lived through this exact scenario after 9/11--is it really that hard to imagine this happening in another country?
posted by derrinyet at 9:08 AM on October 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
You understand that this is not actually supposed to be a debate between you and everyone else on MetaFilter, right? Step back and let the thread go, or ask the mods to kill it.
posted by Etrigan at 10:54 AM on October 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 10:54 AM on October 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted and a few left for context (while they may be removed later if they keep picking up flags. Let's avoid confrontational/one sided comments in a way that doesn't address the topic at hand.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:03 PM on October 7, 2022
posted by loup (staff) at 12:03 PM on October 7, 2022
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Remember this: while epidemiologists today believe that its origins were in the US, the Spanish Flu got that name because Spain wasn't a belligerent in WWI, and as such wasn't restricting reporting of illness.
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