Trailer for "American Theocracy" documentary has dropped
October 7, 2022 9:40 AM Subscribe
"... Societies that practices it (Christian Nationalism) are some of the most evil places on earth," and America is at the precipice.
MTG and her ilk have openly admitted that they want the US turned into a "Christian Nation". They wanted to turn us into Russia under Putin, Brazil under Bolsonaro, our democracy into theocracy.
Check out the trailer for "American Theocracy"... documenting the rise of Christian Nationalism.
Can we please not “No True Christian” this, as is always done in these threads? Christians have done horrible things for thousands of years, maybe these guys aren’t cynical aberrations, and maybe treating them as such is part of the problem.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:13 AM on October 7, 2022 [45 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:13 AM on October 7, 2022 [45 favorites]
Note that their so-called "Christian nation" is not at all based on Jesus' teachings (as wenestvedt pointed out). It's nothing but white supremacy with a veneer of fundamentalism.
Kevin Phillips -- who used to be a conservative commentator on NPR, but was dropped after he started criticizing Republicans from a conservative standpoint -- also wrote a book called American Theocracy back in 2005. As the trailer shows, this movement goes back way before the so-called "Moral Majority," so it's high time it got some critical attention.
posted by Gelatin at 10:15 AM on October 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Kevin Phillips -- who used to be a conservative commentator on NPR, but was dropped after he started criticizing Republicans from a conservative standpoint -- also wrote a book called American Theocracy back in 2005. As the trailer shows, this movement goes back way before the so-called "Moral Majority," so it's high time it got some critical attention.
posted by Gelatin at 10:15 AM on October 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's a valid criticism to point out that the Chinese government, run solely by the Communist Party, betrays the principles of Communism -- or it would be, if their government tolerated dissent.
As the theocrats don't yet run America, if it helps prevent them taking power to point out that they don't represent the kind of christianity that many if not most christians practice, then we should do so.
We certainly need to stop ceding the moral high ground to them by default, as they want with slogans like "moral majority" and "pro life."
posted by Gelatin at 10:23 AM on October 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
As the theocrats don't yet run America, if it helps prevent them taking power to point out that they don't represent the kind of christianity that many if not most christians practice, then we should do so.
We certainly need to stop ceding the moral high ground to them by default, as they want with slogans like "moral majority" and "pro life."
posted by Gelatin at 10:23 AM on October 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
But it does cede them the moral high ground by accepting their premise. Now the discussion is about “what are real Christian values” rather than “a particular religion’s values should not be a concern in an ostensibly secular democracy”.
I come at this from the perspective of someone born and raised Jewish in this secular-but-not-exactly US society and whose parents and grandparents were denied housing and job opportunities by the parents and grandparents of the so-called “real Christians” who are completely unrelated to these bad false Christians, not to mention going a little far back to the Holocaust and pogroms my ancestors experienced.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:48 AM on October 7, 2022 [35 favorites]
I come at this from the perspective of someone born and raised Jewish in this secular-but-not-exactly US society and whose parents and grandparents were denied housing and job opportunities by the parents and grandparents of the so-called “real Christians” who are completely unrelated to these bad false Christians, not to mention going a little far back to the Holocaust and pogroms my ancestors experienced.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:48 AM on October 7, 2022 [35 favorites]
I disagree that recognizing that a minority wants to do away with democracy in this country cedes them the moral high ground, nor does recognizing that the movement is thinly veiled white supremacy, and I don't think anyone is confused on those points.
I also disagree that there's anything especially pernicious about christians in particular, and I say this as an atheist and lapsed Catholic. People in power tend to be abusive towards those with none, that fact is not specific to christians, and it's why we have the secular, representative democracy the christian nationalist movement is trying to demolish.
posted by Gelatin at 11:04 AM on October 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
I also disagree that there's anything especially pernicious about christians in particular, and I say this as an atheist and lapsed Catholic. People in power tend to be abusive towards those with none, that fact is not specific to christians, and it's why we have the secular, representative democracy the christian nationalist movement is trying to demolish.
posted by Gelatin at 11:04 AM on October 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
If the good Christians would spend less time trying to convince me of the difference between good Christians and bad Christians, and more time trying to convince the bad Christians that I am not a pedophile who wants to molest their children, that would be great, thanks.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2022 [93 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2022 [93 favorites]
Barry Goldwater warned of this.
I say hell no.
posted by aiq at 11:43 AM on October 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I say hell no.
posted by aiq at 11:43 AM on October 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
If we taxed the churches and used the proceeds to fund universal healthcare, perhaps we could kill two birds with one stone...
posted by schyler523 at 12:01 PM on October 7, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by schyler523 at 12:01 PM on October 7, 2022 [26 favorites]
My point was that every element of their identity is a lie and a perversion. That's what's so cynical.
I keep church and state separate and wish they would too.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:31 PM on October 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
I keep church and state separate and wish they would too.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:31 PM on October 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Meh, I grew up amidst Bush prototyped all of this with the War on Christmas and relitigating teaching intelligent design in schools while anti-Evangelicals were making documentaries like Jesus Camp. I think the material difference here is now, shorn of primary external enemies, whether Islamic terrorists or communists (as under Reagan's school prayer amendment-thumping administration), Christian zeal is now concentrated on threats within.
Instead of '80s televangelists or their '00s megachurch equivalents in their fancy suits and satellite channels, now any fanatic with a social media account can try to meme their way into leadership. Back then, there were real groups with money and genteel public personas, your Moral Majority and your Focus on the Family and what have you. As invasive and as hardline as these groups could be, they still had to couch their rhetoric behind armies of editors and PR staff. Now anonymous tweetstorms, greentext, YouTube videos can set the world on fire. The decentralized, perhaps even degenerate state, of this phenomenon does seem scarier.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:43 PM on October 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Instead of '80s televangelists or their '00s megachurch equivalents in their fancy suits and satellite channels, now any fanatic with a social media account can try to meme their way into leadership. Back then, there were real groups with money and genteel public personas, your Moral Majority and your Focus on the Family and what have you. As invasive and as hardline as these groups could be, they still had to couch their rhetoric behind armies of editors and PR staff. Now anonymous tweetstorms, greentext, YouTube videos can set the world on fire. The decentralized, perhaps even degenerate state, of this phenomenon does seem scarier.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:43 PM on October 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
I disagree that recognizing that a minority wants to do away with democracy in this country cedes them the moral high ground
I think the point is that engaging with them in a religious debate over whether or not they're following the "true" tenants of their faith (spoiler: they 100% believe that they are) cedes to them their conception of the moral high ground. They want a world where church and state are united, and by trying to argue that they're not running the state in the way that "real" Christians would tacitly acknowledges this worldview.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:43 PM on October 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
I think the point is that engaging with them in a religious debate over whether or not they're following the "true" tenants of their faith (spoiler: they 100% believe that they are) cedes to them their conception of the moral high ground. They want a world where church and state are united, and by trying to argue that they're not running the state in the way that "real" Christians would tacitly acknowledges this worldview.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:43 PM on October 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
OK, but that trailer failed to tell me when the documentary would be released, and through what content portal(s).
posted by LooseFilter at 12:53 PM on October 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 12:53 PM on October 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
In general, as soon as there is a budget and a permanent headcount, there is an institution, and from there on out you can count on the institution being willing to betray its mission for the "good" of the institution. Christians do not have a monopoly on this. But they do have a near-monopoly on the archetypal subconscious of people who use Roman characters to write with, so they provide us with most of the ready historical examples of the abuse.
All that being said, I think that Abrahamic monotheists generally, particularly those with what one might call a "fundamentalist" bent(1), are prone to a peculiarly pernicious ends-justify-the-means atrociousness when they get put in charge of things to put them in line with God's will. There's something about the conviction of access to a Truth that is final and sealed and which completely describes what everybody really needs which justifies the most horrifying extremes of coercion, applied at scale(2). This also was a characteristic of Leninism generally, as it got actually incarnated in regimes like Stalinism and Maoism &c. So perhaps future generations, if there are any, can look forward to revivals of those traditions to compete with monotheism as an attraction for would-be fundamentalists.
(1) "Fundamentalism" being almost exclusively a thing with respect to religions of The Book. But see below.
(2) There seems to be a bit of that ramping up in Iran as I write this.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 1:10 PM on October 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
All that being said, I think that Abrahamic monotheists generally, particularly those with what one might call a "fundamentalist" bent(1), are prone to a peculiarly pernicious ends-justify-the-means atrociousness when they get put in charge of things to put them in line with God's will. There's something about the conviction of access to a Truth that is final and sealed and which completely describes what everybody really needs which justifies the most horrifying extremes of coercion, applied at scale(2). This also was a characteristic of Leninism generally, as it got actually incarnated in regimes like Stalinism and Maoism &c. So perhaps future generations, if there are any, can look forward to revivals of those traditions to compete with monotheism as an attraction for would-be fundamentalists.
(1) "Fundamentalism" being almost exclusively a thing with respect to religions of The Book. But see below.
(2) There seems to be a bit of that ramping up in Iran as I write this.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 1:10 PM on October 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Aardvark Cheeselog: There's something about the conviction of access to a Truth that is final and sealed and which completely describes what everybody really needs which justifies the most horrifying extremes of coercion, applied at scale(2).
I like that. It seems to line up fairly well alongside, “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
...in a really terrible way for humanity, that is. *sigh*
posted by wenestvedt at 1:14 PM on October 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I like that. It seems to line up fairly well alongside, “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
...in a really terrible way for humanity, that is. *sigh*
posted by wenestvedt at 1:14 PM on October 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Steve Schmidt's substack has a piece about the trailer and mentions a January release, but I can't click around the giant "SIGN UP NOW" pop-up.
This blurb at documentary.org says that they sponsored it, but doesn't link to a web site or release date or anything else.
On Twitter, the director Ujlaki tagged a link to Schmidt's piece with "#docinprogress" so maybe there's no date yet?
posted by wenestvedt at 1:33 PM on October 7, 2022
This blurb at documentary.org says that they sponsored it, but doesn't link to a web site or release date or anything else.
On Twitter, the director Ujlaki tagged a link to Schmidt's piece with "#docinprogress" so maybe there's no date yet?
posted by wenestvedt at 1:33 PM on October 7, 2022
I think that Abrahamic monotheists generally, particularly those with what one might call a "fundamentalist" bent(1), are prone to a peculiarly pernicious ends-justify-the-means atrociousness when they get put in charge of things to put them in line with God's will
This might be a little bit of using comparative religion to excuse Abrahamics, but atrocities in recent years alone seem to show that such actions are undertaken in the name of all kinds of great faiths, whether monotheist or not. The 969 Movement Buddhists in Myanmar and Hindutva nationalists in India both indulge in ends-justifying-the-means violent hypocrisy in their various persecutions of Muslims just as easily. (Though as an aside, I wonder if Hindutva adherents subscribe to the more monotheistic interpretations of Hinduism.)
Perhaps having singular focuses of faith does lead to this behavior more easily. But in all such cases, including the one in the OP, perhaps the true object of worship is not a deity but rather a tribe.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:02 PM on October 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
This might be a little bit of using comparative religion to excuse Abrahamics, but atrocities in recent years alone seem to show that such actions are undertaken in the name of all kinds of great faiths, whether monotheist or not. The 969 Movement Buddhists in Myanmar and Hindutva nationalists in India both indulge in ends-justifying-the-means violent hypocrisy in their various persecutions of Muslims just as easily. (Though as an aside, I wonder if Hindutva adherents subscribe to the more monotheistic interpretations of Hinduism.)
Perhaps having singular focuses of faith does lead to this behavior more easily. But in all such cases, including the one in the OP, perhaps the true object of worship is not a deity but rather a tribe.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:02 PM on October 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
FWIW, Boingboing says the whole thing will drop "coming January 2023", so not soon enough for mid-term elections.
posted by kschang at 2:13 PM on October 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kschang at 2:13 PM on October 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Speaking of "ends justify the means"...
I believe trying to debate with these fundamentalists about what is Christian or not is a waste of time. Their entire behavior in Georgia's senatorial race is pretty obvious they believe that anything, including the man's integrity, family values, and everything else, is secondary to whether he toes the Trump line. It doesn't matter if the man was a cheater, a liar, a wife-beater, an adulterer, a man of violence in general, and in no way deserves to be 1 of only 100 people representing the US of A (and 1 of 2 representing Georgia) as long as they win, "we don't care what he did".
Mike Crispi outright said so... Walker is just there to "rubber stamp yes vote for the Trump agenda."
It's pretty clear that as long as they win, ANY of their so-called Christian Values can be sacrificed because the ends justify the means, because in their own minds, they ALREADY hold the moral high ground, and they must WIN in order to wield the mechanism of democracy to force you to acquiesce to them.
posted by kschang at 2:34 PM on October 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
I believe trying to debate with these fundamentalists about what is Christian or not is a waste of time. Their entire behavior in Georgia's senatorial race is pretty obvious they believe that anything, including the man's integrity, family values, and everything else, is secondary to whether he toes the Trump line. It doesn't matter if the man was a cheater, a liar, a wife-beater, an adulterer, a man of violence in general, and in no way deserves to be 1 of only 100 people representing the US of A (and 1 of 2 representing Georgia) as long as they win, "we don't care what he did".
Mike Crispi outright said so... Walker is just there to "rubber stamp yes vote for the Trump agenda."
It's pretty clear that as long as they win, ANY of their so-called Christian Values can be sacrificed because the ends justify the means, because in their own minds, they ALREADY hold the moral high ground, and they must WIN in order to wield the mechanism of democracy to force you to acquiesce to them.
posted by kschang at 2:34 PM on October 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
As an LGBT+ progressive Catholic who spends a lot of time speaking out against hateful actions by people who claim to be Christian, I don't think I need to show my work in order to ask people to not insult my religion.
posted by gwydapllew at 2:41 PM on October 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by gwydapllew at 2:41 PM on October 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
Whether individuals within this movement personally believe themselves Christians, or whether it's a cynical public position they've adopted (and this isn't even a binary issue, as plenty of less-machievellian individuals have incompletely self-examined-and-reconciled conflicting sets of beliefs) - is functionally immaterial in terms of their objectives and the outcomes for the people affected, so long as a large enough portion of other people accept their assertion of Christianity and find their rhetoric and behavior acceptable and the outcome of their power grab appealing.
It doesn't matter if none of it aligns with what other self-identified Christians consider Christian values, so long as they are willing to tolerate or support the outcomes.
And in a system of governance increasingly twisted to disenfranchise the people, the sliver of support required grows steadily thinner.
If arguing that their actions do not represent some statistically significant majority of people who identify as Christian in the US has a real chance of stopping them, great. I think that ship sailed long ago. This has been in the works since at least the early 1970s, but is really just the latest eruption of the anger and fear of the old, white male belief that they are owed power and will do anything to stop it slipping away.
Let's not debate who is Christian unless it makes a difference here. Instead, let's recognize that the term is a convenient fig leaf for the large subset of the population and does much work in covering for "people like us should own the place and nothing undertaken to that end goes too far."
posted by allium cepa at 3:16 PM on October 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
It doesn't matter if none of it aligns with what other self-identified Christians consider Christian values, so long as they are willing to tolerate or support the outcomes.
And in a system of governance increasingly twisted to disenfranchise the people, the sliver of support required grows steadily thinner.
If arguing that their actions do not represent some statistically significant majority of people who identify as Christian in the US has a real chance of stopping them, great. I think that ship sailed long ago. This has been in the works since at least the early 1970s, but is really just the latest eruption of the anger and fear of the old, white male belief that they are owed power and will do anything to stop it slipping away.
Let's not debate who is Christian unless it makes a difference here. Instead, let's recognize that the term is a convenient fig leaf for the large subset of the population and does much work in covering for "people like us should own the place and nothing undertaken to that end goes too far."
posted by allium cepa at 3:16 PM on October 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Walker is just there to "rubber stamp yes vote for the Trump agenda."
Or more colorfully: “I don’t care if Herschel Walker paid to abort endangered baby eagles,” she said. “I want control of the Senate.” -- Dana Loesch, a former spokesperson for the National Rifle Association and former writer and editor for Breitbart.
The platitudes about "family values" have always been a sham. It's about power and control by the minority party because they can't get it legitimately.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:41 PM on October 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
Or more colorfully: “I don’t care if Herschel Walker paid to abort endangered baby eagles,” she said. “I want control of the Senate.” -- Dana Loesch, a former spokesperson for the National Rifle Association and former writer and editor for Breitbart.
The platitudes about "family values" have always been a sham. It's about power and control by the minority party because they can't get it legitimately.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:41 PM on October 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
If we taxed the churches and used the proceeds to fund universal healthcare, perhaps we could kill two birds with one stone...
If we threw enough stones for a proper biblical type stoning event, well...how many birds do we get then?
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:23 PM on October 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
If we threw enough stones for a proper biblical type stoning event, well...how many birds do we get then?
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:23 PM on October 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
As an LGBT+ progressive Catholic who spends a lot of time speaking out against hateful actions by people who claim to be Christian, I don't think I need to show my work in order to ask people to not insult my religion.
Wait, what? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your ends don't seem to follow from your start.
I mean, sure, you can ask.
And maybe people will only criticize and not insult, but there's plenty of evidence against the Catholic Church so that people on here may not acquiesce to your request.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:32 PM on October 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Wait, what? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your ends don't seem to follow from your start.
I mean, sure, you can ask.
And maybe people will only criticize and not insult, but there's plenty of evidence against the Catholic Church so that people on here may not acquiesce to your request.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:32 PM on October 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
I like Lucy Worsley's take on medieval society, in her latest project on the plague (jump to 11 minutes 18 seconds).
posted by Brian B. at 10:13 PM on October 7, 2022
posted by Brian B. at 10:13 PM on October 7, 2022
cedes to them their conception of the moral high ground
Speaking for myself, I don't care about their conception of the moral high ground, because it is wrong. Besides, they're going to claim it no matter what I say or do.
Christian nationalism is true Christianity. And so are all of the other things done by people who call themselves Christians, for good or for ill.
It is intellectually dishonest (or at least incoherent) to assert that only the manifestations of a religion that we like are the "real" religion, and that the manifestations that we dislike are perversions of it.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:02 AM on October 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
Speaking for myself, I don't care about their conception of the moral high ground, because it is wrong. Besides, they're going to claim it no matter what I say or do.
Christian nationalism is true Christianity. And so are all of the other things done by people who call themselves Christians, for good or for ill.
It is intellectually dishonest (or at least incoherent) to assert that only the manifestations of a religion that we like are the "real" religion, and that the manifestations that we dislike are perversions of it.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:02 AM on October 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
"Christian" is an incredibly broad identity and describes a wide range of traditions, belief systems, politics, social practices, etc. There are Christians here in this thread speaking out and many Christians who have an expressly humanist ideology, and holding every Christian responsible for the actions of a narrow group of right wing ideologues is to me silly in its level of inaccuracy but also rude? There are real people right here who are Christians but are also horrified by the theocratic turn in the US. I'm ethnically Jewish and a lifelong atheist and I definitely think there are valid criticisms of Christianity in a broad sense but attacks on Christians as people is damning over 2 billion people worldwide, many of whom are themselves victims of theocratic regimes.
posted by latkes at 6:38 AM on October 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by latkes at 6:38 AM on October 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's great to bag on shitty institutions and fine to critique ideology but characterizing all Christians as people totally ignores power as a factor in the ability to harm, and ignores the cornucopia of harmful ideologies widely held by the majority of people on earth. Like holding a belief or sharing cultural values that have been used to harm others may be a universal human experience.
posted by latkes at 6:53 AM on October 8, 2022
posted by latkes at 6:53 AM on October 8, 2022
It's sloppy to use "Christian" in place of "white Christian evangelicals," especially when that strain of "...evangelicalism is a culture rather than [a] set of beliefs."
"The 2022 State of Theology survey reveals that Americans increasingly reject the divine origin and complete accuracy of the Bible. With no enduring plumb line of absolute truth to conform to, U.S. adults are also increasingly holding to unbiblical worldviews related to human sexuality. In the evangelical sphere, doctrines including the deity and exclusivity of Jesus Christ, as well as the inspiration and authority of the Bible, are increasingly being rejected. While positive trends are present, including evangelicals’ views on abortion and sex outside of marriage, an inconsistent biblical ethic is also evident, with more evangelicals embracing a secular worldview in the areas of homosexuality and gender identity."
Please read Anthea Butler's White Evangelical Racism and Kristin Kobes du Mez's Jesus and John Wayne; both are helpful overviews. I have thesee bookmarked for further reading: Christian Right Denialism is More Dangerous Than Ever: A Reporter’s Guide to the New Apostolic Reformation and For a Herschel Walker win, Georgia's evangelicals are willing to sell their souls from Anthea Butler ("[F]or evangelicals, is the politics of morality isn’t about their candidates’ morality. It’s about legislating their particular brand of morality for others who are outsiders to the faith.") and The white Church Militant: The Black Robe Regiment being built by right-wing power.
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:52 PM on October 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
"The 2022 State of Theology survey reveals that Americans increasingly reject the divine origin and complete accuracy of the Bible. With no enduring plumb line of absolute truth to conform to, U.S. adults are also increasingly holding to unbiblical worldviews related to human sexuality. In the evangelical sphere, doctrines including the deity and exclusivity of Jesus Christ, as well as the inspiration and authority of the Bible, are increasingly being rejected. While positive trends are present, including evangelicals’ views on abortion and sex outside of marriage, an inconsistent biblical ethic is also evident, with more evangelicals embracing a secular worldview in the areas of homosexuality and gender identity."
Please read Anthea Butler's White Evangelical Racism and Kristin Kobes du Mez's Jesus and John Wayne; both are helpful overviews. I have thesee bookmarked for further reading: Christian Right Denialism is More Dangerous Than Ever: A Reporter’s Guide to the New Apostolic Reformation and For a Herschel Walker win, Georgia's evangelicals are willing to sell their souls from Anthea Butler ("[F]or evangelicals, is the politics of morality isn’t about their candidates’ morality. It’s about legislating their particular brand of morality for others who are outsiders to the faith.") and The white Church Militant: The Black Robe Regiment being built by right-wing power.
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:52 PM on October 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
@MonkeyToes
TL;DR -- the evangelicals are willing to sell out their own values in order to force those values (that they sold out) on the rest of America.
And that... is the ultimate hypocrisy.
posted by kschang at 7:02 PM on October 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
TL;DR -- the evangelicals are willing to sell out their own values in order to force those values (that they sold out) on the rest of America.
And that... is the ultimate hypocrisy.
posted by kschang at 7:02 PM on October 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
If only there was someone who preached against being a hypocrite
posted by mbo at 7:11 PM on October 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by mbo at 7:11 PM on October 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
> Their entire behavior in Georgia's senatorial race is pretty obvious they believe that anything, including the man's integrity, family values, and everything else, is secondary to whether he toes the Trump line.
more re: ultimate hypocrisy[*]
more re: ultimate hypocrisy[*]
“I am concerned about one thing, and one thing only, at this point,” conservative radio host Dana Loesch said on her show this week. “So I don’t care if Herschel Walker paid to abort endangered baby eagles — I want control of the Senate.”posted by kliuless at 11:26 PM on October 8, 2022
I guess there's some nuance to the naming, but a bunch of people want power over other people, in a place that claims it was created to liberate (some) people from being under the tyranny of gods and kings. That seems like an originalist reading, too, for the other lot who want power over people.
"Look for the helpers" -- where are the people who would take power and responsibility?
posted by k3ninho at 1:25 AM on October 9, 2022
"Look for the helpers" -- where are the people who would take power and responsibility?
posted by k3ninho at 1:25 AM on October 9, 2022
Herschel is no hypocrite because nobody cares what he thinks. He's a follower-sinner, victim to an adversary. Religious franchise is all about targeting the meek and producing guilt and contrition, in order to control minds. Guilt-sentencers are potential hypocrites (including secularists). Repentant followers are good examples in a manipulated reality. Warnock is a genius for not making too much of it.
posted by Brian B. at 7:52 AM on October 9, 2022
posted by Brian B. at 7:52 AM on October 9, 2022
> I don’t care if Herschel Walker paid to abort endangered baby eagles — I want control of the Senate
I have to acknowledge it: this is a great line. Horrifying that it isn't satire, but still great.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:17 PM on October 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have to acknowledge it: this is a great line. Horrifying that it isn't satire, but still great.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:17 PM on October 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Perhaps, but I'm struck by the implication that Loesch doesn't know how birds reproduce.
"Christian" is an incredibly broad identity and describes a wide range of traditions, belief systems, politics, social practices, etc.
Sure, the expressions of faith differ between denominations, but don't they all believe that (paraphrasing) you go to heaven if you accept Jesus as your lord and savior? That, I've deduced, is the moral hazard that allows evangelical Christian nationalists to flourish with all the antagonism they can muster. Right now, you can credibly say that as long as you do the born-again thing, you can do whatever you want and all will be forgiven at the pearly gates. I suspect that carries across all if not most Christian denominations, Albert Brooks notwithstanding.
posted by rhizome at 5:00 PM on October 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Christian" is an incredibly broad identity and describes a wide range of traditions, belief systems, politics, social practices, etc.
Sure, the expressions of faith differ between denominations, but don't they all believe that (paraphrasing) you go to heaven if you accept Jesus as your lord and savior? That, I've deduced, is the moral hazard that allows evangelical Christian nationalists to flourish with all the antagonism they can muster. Right now, you can credibly say that as long as you do the born-again thing, you can do whatever you want and all will be forgiven at the pearly gates. I suspect that carries across all if not most Christian denominations, Albert Brooks notwithstanding.
posted by rhizome at 5:00 PM on October 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I guess I'll have to see the documentary but based on the trailer this is not "Christian Nationalism" it's "Evangelical Nationalism". Institutional Christian Churches with government ties and historically ecumenical reach (Catholic / Orthodox), are quite often reactionary but part of the state apparatus - not usually wingnut insurgencies with an overt racial / exterminationist agenda, whatever the outliers might be. And they cover a spectrum of political tendencies. And Catholics right now have as head of their church a guy that's to the left of Bernie Sanders on most issues. Evangelicals are closer to Islamic, politically militant, religious conservatism than anything else.
The mass base for Bolsonaro counts many or most evangelicals - the incursion of the evangelical churches in Latin America, with notable exceptions led to higher support for the right and far right in the continent, so this was a US export to Brazil. Yet Brazil is by no conceivable measure a theocracy, not least because a large part of the Catholic base (and a significant number of protestants) is decidedly on the Left. Bolsonaro is an authoritarian but not a Theocrat.
Anyway US right-wing Evangelicalism might be the most dangerous religious movement in the world- more dangerous than even Salafism, given the magnitude of the threat of the world's greatest superpower in history falling into the hands of people who are actively praying for Armageddon... and yes, this wasn't always so and the far right does not speak for all Evangelicals
posted by talos at 4:28 PM on October 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
"They wanted to turn us into Russia under Putin, Brazil under Bolsonaro, our democracy into theocracy"Neither of these countries are theocracies. They have conservative, ostensibly religious leaders, but Putin uses the church, not the other way around. Russian society is not conservative in the American sense in most issues, less religious and much more libertine. e.g: Note that the Russian church has been trying to get abortion banned for ever and it has failed - it is still legal with some restrictions. Putin is an authoritarian but not a Theocrat.
The mass base for Bolsonaro counts many or most evangelicals - the incursion of the evangelical churches in Latin America, with notable exceptions led to higher support for the right and far right in the continent, so this was a US export to Brazil. Yet Brazil is by no conceivable measure a theocracy, not least because a large part of the Catholic base (and a significant number of protestants) is decidedly on the Left. Bolsonaro is an authoritarian but not a Theocrat.
Anyway US right-wing Evangelicalism might be the most dangerous religious movement in the world- more dangerous than even Salafism, given the magnitude of the threat of the world's greatest superpower in history falling into the hands of people who are actively praying for Armageddon... and yes, this wasn't always so and the far right does not speak for all Evangelicals
posted by talos at 4:28 PM on October 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Evangelicalism goes all the way back to Puritanism, as a reaction to modernism and liberalism. Besides being born again, it emphasizes possessed charismatic leadership, which is consistent with dictators and angry control over words, schools, and law. This isn't a new development, as the earliest congregations of Christianity in ancient Antioch and Alexandria would attack each other after a fiery sermon. They don't subscribe to abstractions or interpretative leanings as anti-conservatives do. It is, fundamentally, "a vision of a God who deprives us of genuine freedom and rejoices in violence and damnation.”
Like thousands of other converts, Sarah was drawn to evangelicalism because it helped her make sense of changes in everyday life that did not yet have a name. Words like capitalism, individualism, Enlightenment, and humanitarianism were not coined until the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, but language often lags behind reality, and Sarah seems to have recognized that the austere Puritanism of her childhood was under attack by a growing faith in human goodness and individual freedom. She admired evangelical ministers because of her belief that they offered convincing answers to the most pressing questions of her day—questions about the nature of God, the meaning of suffering, and the definition of truth.
posted by Brian B. at 8:56 AM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Like thousands of other converts, Sarah was drawn to evangelicalism because it helped her make sense of changes in everyday life that did not yet have a name. Words like capitalism, individualism, Enlightenment, and humanitarianism were not coined until the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, but language often lags behind reality, and Sarah seems to have recognized that the austere Puritanism of her childhood was under attack by a growing faith in human goodness and individual freedom. She admired evangelical ministers because of her belief that they offered convincing answers to the most pressing questions of her day—questions about the nature of God, the meaning of suffering, and the definition of truth.
posted by Brian B. at 8:56 AM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
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DAMN, I am tired of these Christian Nationalists: they use the name of Christianity but none of its values, to try to take over the form of a country but none of its ideals.
So, so cynical.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:47 AM on October 7, 2022 [25 favorites]