Boss behavior and policing delivery drivers
October 24, 2022 1:19 PM Subscribe
At the Digital Doorstep: How Customers Use Doorbell Cameras to Manage Delivery Workers. We wanted to understand how residents use and monitor these cameras, but more importantly, we wanted to know their impact on low-wage delivery workers who are routinely observed and recorded over the course of their daily work. How does this form of surveillance change labor conditions?
Why didn’t they interview postal delivery people?
Likely because postal workers operate under very different conditions:
posted by mph at 2:21 PM on October 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
Likely because postal workers operate under very different conditions:
The rise of boss behavior is occurring at the same time as the growth of platform-based delivery work, which deploys the now-familiar techniques of algorithmic management to direct a rolling population of ad hoc workers, scheduled at irregular hours on unpredictable routes with precarious job security and little to no federal labor protections. The risks of this work and the challenges of being algorithmically managed are sharpened by the increased use of doorbell cameras, which provide the possibility of an unseen and unknown audience at the doorstep. Workers often choose to perform various forms of retail service niceties while weighing customer satisfaction against delivery quotas in the apps that manage their labor.I don't think that really describes my local letter carriers at all.
posted by mph at 2:21 PM on October 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
I use my cam primarily to see if there's a package on the porch. Or, to see if the noise I heard was a delivery arriving. But I'm remote, retired, and reclusive. Watching package tracking is a favorite amusement. But, my house is invisible from the road. Had problems with deliveries being left down by the road. Worse, in the snow.
posted by Goofyy at 2:32 PM on October 24, 2022
posted by Goofyy at 2:32 PM on October 24, 2022
I was surprised the "boss behavior" section wasn't about Amazon Ring allowing Amazon to monitor Amazon delivery drivers. But then why would they need to when the customers will do it for them for free.
We have a surveillance doorbell, and a surveillance system of cameras, but it's not Ring. I forget actually the brand, but we have it set so only we have access to it - we were worried about the police using it to surveil us and our mostly POC neighbors and wanted to make sure that they had to serve us with a warrant to get the video rather than asking some company like Ring which would give it to them without a warrant.
posted by joannemerriam at 2:34 PM on October 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
We have a surveillance doorbell, and a surveillance system of cameras, but it's not Ring. I forget actually the brand, but we have it set so only we have access to it - we were worried about the police using it to surveil us and our mostly POC neighbors and wanted to make sure that they had to serve us with a warrant to get the video rather than asking some company like Ring which would give it to them without a warrant.
posted by joannemerriam at 2:34 PM on October 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
I’m only like 6 pages in so maybe this is addressed, but the thing that comes to mind hearing about folks like Sheryl (there are thousands just like her on Nextdoor, Facebook, local subreddits, etc) is that… it doesn’t matter. Amazon replaces this shit for free without a second glance. This guy kicked a box of printer paper, not your grandma’s Hummel figurines. Ditto porch pirates. Yeah it’s annoying that you have to wait two more days (maybe just one if you put up a stink) but like… what have you really lost? It’s just punitive.
(I also feel the same when when people bitch about shoplifters at Target but maybe that’s getting a little far afield.)
posted by supercres at 2:45 PM on October 24, 2022 [22 favorites]
(I also feel the same when when people bitch about shoplifters at Target but maybe that’s getting a little far afield.)
posted by supercres at 2:45 PM on October 24, 2022 [22 favorites]
(Ditto to joannemerriam— I have a couple Nest cams that I can’t wait to get rid of but are currently pointed so that they see basically nothing other than our porch/walkway so they’re of as little use as possible. Just waiting on running some Cat5 for PoE before we can run everything into a local NVR instead of the cloud.)
posted by supercres at 2:48 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by supercres at 2:48 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
This guy kicked a box of printer paper, not your grandma’s Hummel figurines. Ditto porch pirates. Yeah it’s annoying that you have to wait two more days (maybe just one if you put up a stink) but like… what have you really lost?
Uh, in several cases, time-sensitive medication. Granted that wasn't Amazon and it was replaced for free, but it meant I missed several doses. Not everything that is shipped is some ultimately unimportant crap.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:55 PM on October 24, 2022 [41 favorites]
Uh, in several cases, time-sensitive medication. Granted that wasn't Amazon and it was replaced for free, but it meant I missed several doses. Not everything that is shipped is some ultimately unimportant crap.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:55 PM on October 24, 2022 [41 favorites]
I have a doorbell camera and get a lot of stuff delivered but, jeez, I get delivery because I don't have time to do my errands myself. I can't imagine sitting around reviewing delivery footage to make sure people were doing it how I wanted them to. Wild.
posted by potrzebie at 2:57 PM on October 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 2:57 PM on October 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
I can't imagine sitting around reviewing delivery footage to make sure people were doing it how I wanted them to.
Right? We got ours as a security camera for our driveway, and I think actually because my husband just wanted to play with the tech, but we've ended up using it mostly for (a) the person who is home most often and whose home office is on the third floor to not have to come all the way downstairs to see who's at the door when it's a missionary or salesman or whatever, (b) to see if food we're waiting for has shown up yet and (c) to be charmed by the wildlife, mostly squirrels and bees but occasionally deer, who trigger the motion sensor.
posted by joannemerriam at 3:08 PM on October 24, 2022
Right? We got ours as a security camera for our driveway, and I think actually because my husband just wanted to play with the tech, but we've ended up using it mostly for (a) the person who is home most often and whose home office is on the third floor to not have to come all the way downstairs to see who's at the door when it's a missionary or salesman or whatever, (b) to see if food we're waiting for has shown up yet and (c) to be charmed by the wildlife, mostly squirrels and bees but occasionally deer, who trigger the motion sensor.
posted by joannemerriam at 3:08 PM on October 24, 2022
I found it more than a little odd how many of the anecdotes related to explicitly rural and suburban people being weirdly demanding, heavily armed, and unpredictable psychopaths.
posted by aramaic at 3:16 PM on October 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 3:16 PM on October 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
I found it more than a little odd how many of the anecdotes related to explicitly rural and suburban people being weirdly demanding, heavily armed, and unpredictable psychopaths.
...that struck you as odd?
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:34 PM on October 24, 2022 [37 favorites]
...that struck you as odd?
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:34 PM on October 24, 2022 [37 favorites]
I can't imagine sitting around reviewing delivery footage to make sure people were doing it how I wanted them to.
There are a decent number of people who come closest to their aspirational lives when they can torture service workers. For some of them, I suspect, it's their big chance to overtly exercise the power of whiteness.
To be fair, delivery services don't exactly always play by the rules. Being able to show that the alleged delivery never occurred is useful.
posted by praemunire at 3:56 PM on October 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
There are a decent number of people who come closest to their aspirational lives when they can torture service workers. For some of them, I suspect, it's their big chance to overtly exercise the power of whiteness.
To be fair, delivery services don't exactly always play by the rules. Being able to show that the alleged delivery never occurred is useful.
posted by praemunire at 3:56 PM on October 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
I started this comment as a rejoinder, but will reel it back and toss it back out as a thing I am simply thinking about:
I wonder how much doorbell cams and constant Nextdoor footage of porch piracy, prowling, and petty larceny in general, are contributing to what feels to me like a period of pretty intense middle class reaction.
In my town I think we're about to toss the only real progressive from the city council, and in my state Democrats stand an uncomfortably close chance of losing the governor's mansion for the first time in forty years. My local subreddit is full of petty crime stories and surveillance videos of theft, even though the moderation team is restrictive enough that there's a second more rightoid local subreddit where you can see even more of that stuff.
I wonder if the middle class mood would be different if there wasn't such a steady stream of this content. I know, just being honest with myself, that when a few books got stolen off the porch pre-doorbell cam, I just filled out the form that said "you said this was delivered, but no it wasn't" and the replacements came. It occupied a certain abstract place. Stuff coulda been stolen, stuff coulda been left with a dishonest or confused neighbor, etc. etc. etc.
Then the doorbell cam came, not because I wanted to catch thieves, but because I work alone in an upstairs office and want an easy way to know if I need to come down to sign for something or if my neighbor is stopping by, or whatever.
Once I had the cam it didn't feel the same way when I was able to watch footage of a theft of something more high-value the shipper was less blasé about simply replacing on my good word. The outcome was the exact same (minus the part where I attached footage of the theft to prove the claim), but I saw it happening, I was clear on exactly what had happened with no room to imagine otherwise, and it felt different. I was more angry.
posted by mph at 3:59 PM on October 24, 2022 [38 favorites]
I wonder how much doorbell cams and constant Nextdoor footage of porch piracy, prowling, and petty larceny in general, are contributing to what feels to me like a period of pretty intense middle class reaction.
In my town I think we're about to toss the only real progressive from the city council, and in my state Democrats stand an uncomfortably close chance of losing the governor's mansion for the first time in forty years. My local subreddit is full of petty crime stories and surveillance videos of theft, even though the moderation team is restrictive enough that there's a second more rightoid local subreddit where you can see even more of that stuff.
I wonder if the middle class mood would be different if there wasn't such a steady stream of this content. I know, just being honest with myself, that when a few books got stolen off the porch pre-doorbell cam, I just filled out the form that said "you said this was delivered, but no it wasn't" and the replacements came. It occupied a certain abstract place. Stuff coulda been stolen, stuff coulda been left with a dishonest or confused neighbor, etc. etc. etc.
Then the doorbell cam came, not because I wanted to catch thieves, but because I work alone in an upstairs office and want an easy way to know if I need to come down to sign for something or if my neighbor is stopping by, or whatever.
Once I had the cam it didn't feel the same way when I was able to watch footage of a theft of something more high-value the shipper was less blasé about simply replacing on my good word. The outcome was the exact same (minus the part where I attached footage of the theft to prove the claim), but I saw it happening, I was clear on exactly what had happened with no room to imagine otherwise, and it felt different. I was more angry.
posted by mph at 3:59 PM on October 24, 2022 [38 favorites]
I live in a building with six apartments. A couple of which get frequent Amazon deliveries. No cameras. The drivers ring a person’s number, no response, they ring other numbers hoping someone will let them in. But they leave packages outside anyway. Awhile back, two guys from Amazon showed up and I ended up talking to them. They said someone had a package stolen, the driver left it by the sidewalk, and they were here to solve the problem of theft. It seems that Amazon has this new technology that gets wired into the building’s doorbell and front door release system, so the driver can push a button on some Bluetooth device they carry and the front door will open so they can put the package inside. Suppposedly loads of security in the device. This system in the building dates back to the twenties. I showed them what we had and they said no problem. I called the landlord, he said it was ok. Amazon appeared really anxious to do this. A few days later, some other guy came out, looked around and said no problem. He told me to call this number and set a time. I called, left a message, and never heard from them again. The curious thing is that the first two guys said this technology was going to be shared with fedex, ups, and the postal system. So important to expedite the installation turns into silence. I really do not like Amazon.
posted by njohnson23 at 5:08 PM on October 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 5:08 PM on October 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
Uh, in several cases, time-sensitive medication. Granted that wasn't Amazon and it was replaced for free, but it meant I missed several doses. Not everything that is shipped is some ultimately unimportant crap.
This reminds me of last week's dustup on Twitter with the person running the Jorts account (there's no summary I can find). There's an intersection in talking about worker's rights and disability rights in these types of jobs that I notice gets very poorly handled on the left that comes out regularly. Though in Jorts's case, an uncomfortable racial angle as well in the conclusions being drawn. But that feels more clearcut because it's about Doordash-type deliveries. I'm still mostly uncomfortable with doorbell cams.
posted by cendawanita at 5:36 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
This reminds me of last week's dustup on Twitter with the person running the Jorts account (there's no summary I can find). There's an intersection in talking about worker's rights and disability rights in these types of jobs that I notice gets very poorly handled on the left that comes out regularly. Though in Jorts's case, an uncomfortable racial angle as well in the conclusions being drawn. But that feels more clearcut because it's about Doordash-type deliveries. I'm still mostly uncomfortable with doorbell cams.
posted by cendawanita at 5:36 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
their aspirational lives when they can torture service workers
Isn't this one of the reasons why customers advocate for tipping in restaurants? Everyone else has a clear economic reason for it - the business has to pay less, the staff gets paid more, the government doesn't have to change minimum wage laws - but in most cases, customers pay the same amount if tipping is included in the bill or not. But some people _really_ want the ability to make service staff dance for their tips.
posted by meowzilla at 5:39 PM on October 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
Isn't this one of the reasons why customers advocate for tipping in restaurants? Everyone else has a clear economic reason for it - the business has to pay less, the staff gets paid more, the government doesn't have to change minimum wage laws - but in most cases, customers pay the same amount if tipping is included in the bill or not. But some people _really_ want the ability to make service staff dance for their tips.
posted by meowzilla at 5:39 PM on October 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
I'm still mostly uncomfortable with doorbell cams.
So am I, and indeed I wouldn't use them -- I just wanted to push back on the idea that theft of deliveries is just no big deal because people who get delivery (presumably middle class or above?) don't actually get anything important delivered.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:42 PM on October 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
So am I, and indeed I wouldn't use them -- I just wanted to push back on the idea that theft of deliveries is just no big deal because people who get delivery (presumably middle class or above?) don't actually get anything important delivered.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:42 PM on October 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
We shouldn't be ok with theft because "Amazon will just replace it anyway" and "Amazon is evil and I don't care if they lose money" since it leads to a environment where the only online seller is Amazon because no one else can afford to replace stolen packages. And it leads to a pretty corrosive effect on people in general.
posted by meowzilla at 5:52 PM on October 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 5:52 PM on October 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
I don't think people generally being easy going about this particular kind of theft can lead to an increase in theft. The only thing that makes people not want to steal is people being able to buy things.
posted by bleep at 6:18 PM on October 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:18 PM on October 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
And it leads to a pretty corrosive effect on people in general.
This is something I think about a lot. Porch theft, shoplifting, spam, robocalls, and all other manner of scams has become this background radiation of awful that really brings me down.
posted by jimw at 7:13 PM on October 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
This is something I think about a lot. Porch theft, shoplifting, spam, robocalls, and all other manner of scams has become this background radiation of awful that really brings me down.
posted by jimw at 7:13 PM on October 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
How does this form of surveillance change labor conditions?
Wait, let me guess -- is it "for the better?"
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:16 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wait, let me guess -- is it "for the better?"
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:16 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have a $650 package arriving tomorrow morning. If it is stolen, I lose $650.
posted by ryanrs at 7:48 PM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 7:48 PM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
I dunno, man. I actually do this really similar thing most days, where I accept annoying instructions and annoying supervision from people who sometimes act like jerks, all because they're giving me some of their money.
The part of this article I found weirdest was the insinuation that driver-facing cameras were somehow sinister. What exactly is the private behavior that they're likely to capture? Private phone calls? Don't talk on the phone while you drive. Picking your nose? How is the whole arrangement more invasive than sitting at a desk in an open office where your coworkers can usually see what you're doing?
Obviously I agree that there need to be countermeasures against things like racist behavior or threats of violence, but that's the kind of problem that can be mitigated with more cameras, not fewer.
posted by foursentences at 8:35 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
The part of this article I found weirdest was the insinuation that driver-facing cameras were somehow sinister. What exactly is the private behavior that they're likely to capture? Private phone calls? Don't talk on the phone while you drive. Picking your nose? How is the whole arrangement more invasive than sitting at a desk in an open office where your coworkers can usually see what you're doing?
Obviously I agree that there need to be countermeasures against things like racist behavior or threats of violence, but that's the kind of problem that can be mitigated with more cameras, not fewer.
posted by foursentences at 8:35 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
How is the whole arrangement more invasive than sitting at a desk in an open office where your coworkers can usually see what you're doing?
One perk of driving jobs used to be that you got a little privacy on the job. Driver-facing cameras unilaterally take that perk away with no attendant increase in compensation. That's all there is to it, really. There are people who take certain kinds of jobs because they prefer not to have a boss breathing down their neck all the time. But there are fewer and fewer jobs like that with each passing year.
It's also the case that ML models will almost certainly be used to analyze that footage, and many of them draw conclusions that end up reinforcing existing inequity. For instance, if I were an East Asian delivery driver I would be very concerned that I'd get penalized for "appearing sleepy" due to the shape of my eyes.
posted by potrzebie at 8:53 PM on October 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
One perk of driving jobs used to be that you got a little privacy on the job. Driver-facing cameras unilaterally take that perk away with no attendant increase in compensation. That's all there is to it, really. There are people who take certain kinds of jobs because they prefer not to have a boss breathing down their neck all the time. But there are fewer and fewer jobs like that with each passing year.
It's also the case that ML models will almost certainly be used to analyze that footage, and many of them draw conclusions that end up reinforcing existing inequity. For instance, if I were an East Asian delivery driver I would be very concerned that I'd get penalized for "appearing sleepy" due to the shape of my eyes.
posted by potrzebie at 8:53 PM on October 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
I wonder how much doorbell cams and constant Nextdoor footage of porch piracy, prowling, and petty larceny in general, are contributing to what feels to me like a period of pretty intense middle class reaction.
Interesting thought.
I have noticed, as a result of my nonconsensual Fox News viewing (an unpleasant side effect of an effort to spend more time with family), that the "crime wave" seems to be a big FNC / Murdoch / Republican talking point right now. So I am inherently suspicious that it might be more smoke than fire, just because… well, pathological lying seems to be a core Republican value these days.
Per the FBI statistics for 2020, violent crime was up 5.6 percent from 2019, but property crime actually decreased 7.8 percent, in line with a trend that's been ongoing for more than 20 years. While a lot of petty "porch pirate" crime may be underrepresented in the FBI stats (how many people actually bother to file police reports each time a package is MIA?), it doesn't look like an epidemic of casual criminality to me.
If a lot more packages are getting swiped today vs. 20 years ago, part of that is probably due to the sheer volume of packages being left on doorsteps today. Also, the use of private last-mile delivery carriers—who seem more inclined to leave packages rather than the traditional "we'll return tomorrow" notes from UPS, or USPS instructions to pick things up at the Post Office—probably doesn't help.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:12 PM on October 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
Interesting thought.
I have noticed, as a result of my nonconsensual Fox News viewing (an unpleasant side effect of an effort to spend more time with family), that the "crime wave" seems to be a big FNC / Murdoch / Republican talking point right now. So I am inherently suspicious that it might be more smoke than fire, just because… well, pathological lying seems to be a core Republican value these days.
Per the FBI statistics for 2020, violent crime was up 5.6 percent from 2019, but property crime actually decreased 7.8 percent, in line with a trend that's been ongoing for more than 20 years. While a lot of petty "porch pirate" crime may be underrepresented in the FBI stats (how many people actually bother to file police reports each time a package is MIA?), it doesn't look like an epidemic of casual criminality to me.
If a lot more packages are getting swiped today vs. 20 years ago, part of that is probably due to the sheer volume of packages being left on doorsteps today. Also, the use of private last-mile delivery carriers—who seem more inclined to leave packages rather than the traditional "we'll return tomorrow" notes from UPS, or USPS instructions to pick things up at the Post Office—probably doesn't help.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:12 PM on October 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
The only thing that makes people not want to steal is people being able to buy things.
You clearly grew up with a better (that is to say, more moral) class of criminal than I did, because IME this is very not true.
Thrills, social capital, feeling powerful, being "dangerous" and so on all seemed to rank substantially higher than "having things I could not otherwise afford". To pick an example, Buzz could have afforded to have his (fairly nice) car fixed, he didn't need to pay with a pillowcase full of car stereos, but there he was, standing there, with a pillowcase full of car stereos. I mean, shit, really, you take a huge reduction in value when you pay for things that way! Repair dude was always gonna be giving you pennies on the dollar for accepting stolen stereos, there is literally no way that was cheaper than just spending the beer money instead! I'm not referring to minor crimes, either, the guys who broke into mailboxes were committing a fairly significant federal offense for a few random CDs they didn't even want.
...which has precious little to do with cameras, I realize. I just wanted to say "having stuff I need but can't afford" is very often not the main reason for theft. I've only known one semi-professional thief who stole because she "needed" it, and she did not in fact need it, she'd just convinced herself that she didn't have any other options (despite, y'know, those other options being literally painted on the sides of buses saying "hey kids you have options!"). There's probably a gender modality to theft in here as well.
But yeah, if theft were need-based we wouldn't have had Madoff, or that pharmabro asshole whose name I've forgotten. They all run together, don't they?
posted by aramaic at 9:12 PM on October 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
You clearly grew up with a better (that is to say, more moral) class of criminal than I did, because IME this is very not true.
Thrills, social capital, feeling powerful, being "dangerous" and so on all seemed to rank substantially higher than "having things I could not otherwise afford". To pick an example, Buzz could have afforded to have his (fairly nice) car fixed, he didn't need to pay with a pillowcase full of car stereos, but there he was, standing there, with a pillowcase full of car stereos. I mean, shit, really, you take a huge reduction in value when you pay for things that way! Repair dude was always gonna be giving you pennies on the dollar for accepting stolen stereos, there is literally no way that was cheaper than just spending the beer money instead! I'm not referring to minor crimes, either, the guys who broke into mailboxes were committing a fairly significant federal offense for a few random CDs they didn't even want.
...which has precious little to do with cameras, I realize. I just wanted to say "having stuff I need but can't afford" is very often not the main reason for theft. I've only known one semi-professional thief who stole because she "needed" it, and she did not in fact need it, she'd just convinced herself that she didn't have any other options (despite, y'know, those other options being literally painted on the sides of buses saying "hey kids you have options!"). There's probably a gender modality to theft in here as well.
But yeah, if theft were need-based we wouldn't have had Madoff, or that pharmabro asshole whose name I've forgotten. They all run together, don't they?
posted by aramaic at 9:12 PM on October 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
Because people taking random packages is the same as million dollar Ponzi schemes. That's why we all cheer when Jean valjean goes to jail.
posted by bleep at 9:30 PM on October 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 9:30 PM on October 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
What exactly is the private behavior that they're likely to capture?
"Give me six lines written by the hand of an honest man, and in them I will find a reason to have him hanged." -Cardinal Armand Jean du Plessis
It's a panopticon. The constant surveillance gives their bosses a wide swath to pick from when the need a reason to fire (or threaten to fire) someone. This is especially convenient if the real reason they need to fire someone is union organizing.
And the driver knows this, but never knows what slight act can be spun into punishment. Took six minutes on your five minute break? Driving too fast? Driving too slow? Not smiling enough and therefore showing a "negative attitude in a customer-facing role"? The camera provides the image that can be a thousand misleading words.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:32 PM on October 24, 2022 [20 favorites]
"Give me six lines written by the hand of an honest man, and in them I will find a reason to have him hanged." -Cardinal Armand Jean du Plessis
It's a panopticon. The constant surveillance gives their bosses a wide swath to pick from when the need a reason to fire (or threaten to fire) someone. This is especially convenient if the real reason they need to fire someone is union organizing.
And the driver knows this, but never knows what slight act can be spun into punishment. Took six minutes on your five minute break? Driving too fast? Driving too slow? Not smiling enough and therefore showing a "negative attitude in a customer-facing role"? The camera provides the image that can be a thousand misleading words.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:32 PM on October 24, 2022 [20 favorites]
I'm not really sure how to properly express this...
I really do feel for the delivery drivers that Amazon is working to exhaustion for shit money. But letting the often terrible job that many of these drivers do slide because of some sympathy for them because they aren't paid enough to care ... that can't be helping anyone right?
I don't want anyone to get fired... I'd rather they have a job that isn't slowly killing them. But doing a crap job isn't acceptable either.
I don't live in a bad neighbourhood.. I don't live in a great one either. But if you leave stuff on my apartment porch, or even inside the outside (unlocked) door, it will get stolen.
A driver will leave a package and within 5 min of them updating the app and taking their little picture, by the time I get downstairs it was either gone or ripped apart so someone could decide it wasn't worth stealing.
So I've left multiple requests that stuff not be left, all i really ask is that they just buzz. the app can take minutes to notify me.. sometimes a half hour even. If they just buzz I can be down before someone gets a chance to go through it. So Amazon has left an instruction that things have to be "handed to the resident". So now the drivers just straight up lie and record that things are handed to me while they are still just dropping them off... and even still take their picture... I mean which one was it buddy?
This is a deeply broken system if the only way drivers can do their jobs is to give the absolute worst service possible. If they are then getting recorded doing this ... that's not fair to them. But it's also not fair to blame this on some "asshole with a camera" either. If the job wasn't so broken then the chance to film them doing the broken job wouldn't be ther either...
posted by cirhosis at 10:33 PM on October 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
I really do feel for the delivery drivers that Amazon is working to exhaustion for shit money. But letting the often terrible job that many of these drivers do slide because of some sympathy for them because they aren't paid enough to care ... that can't be helping anyone right?
I don't want anyone to get fired... I'd rather they have a job that isn't slowly killing them. But doing a crap job isn't acceptable either.
I don't live in a bad neighbourhood.. I don't live in a great one either. But if you leave stuff on my apartment porch, or even inside the outside (unlocked) door, it will get stolen.
A driver will leave a package and within 5 min of them updating the app and taking their little picture, by the time I get downstairs it was either gone or ripped apart so someone could decide it wasn't worth stealing.
So I've left multiple requests that stuff not be left, all i really ask is that they just buzz. the app can take minutes to notify me.. sometimes a half hour even. If they just buzz I can be down before someone gets a chance to go through it. So Amazon has left an instruction that things have to be "handed to the resident". So now the drivers just straight up lie and record that things are handed to me while they are still just dropping them off... and even still take their picture... I mean which one was it buddy?
This is a deeply broken system if the only way drivers can do their jobs is to give the absolute worst service possible. If they are then getting recorded doing this ... that's not fair to them. But it's also not fair to blame this on some "asshole with a camera" either. If the job wasn't so broken then the chance to film them doing the broken job wouldn't be ther either...
posted by cirhosis at 10:33 PM on October 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
A question from someone who left the US before the world of All Products was available for delivery, but who uses the local equivalent of amazon, deliveroo, etc ...
Why wouldn't the postman just leave things with neighbors? As a comparison, ours (NL) knock once (... sometimes twice, sometimes I suspect not-at-all if the neighbor also has a delivery), then leaves a slip (now electronic, which is a bit of a gripe, but more sustainable to save on paper) telling which of your neighbors to pick up the package with - - then there's no question about missed deliveries, stolen property, etc... wouldn't this be an elegant solution to what seems to be an industry sprung up to placate (sometimes legitimate, though not sure I've seen much data even in this thread) peoples' fear of loss/theft?
posted by Seeba at 1:15 AM on October 25, 2022
Why wouldn't the postman just leave things with neighbors? As a comparison, ours (NL) knock once (... sometimes twice, sometimes I suspect not-at-all if the neighbor also has a delivery), then leaves a slip (now electronic, which is a bit of a gripe, but more sustainable to save on paper) telling which of your neighbors to pick up the package with - - then there's no question about missed deliveries, stolen property, etc... wouldn't this be an elegant solution to what seems to be an industry sprung up to placate (sometimes legitimate, though not sure I've seen much data even in this thread) peoples' fear of loss/theft?
posted by Seeba at 1:15 AM on October 25, 2022
Many chronically ill/Disabled folk are dependant on delivery drivers for
important medications;
food;
cat food
and similar items.
Often missed/damaged deliveries can be a serious problem for chronically ill/Disabled people.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:53 AM on October 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
important medications;
food;
cat food
and similar items.
Often missed/damaged deliveries can be a serious problem for chronically ill/Disabled people.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:53 AM on October 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Delivery items can include CPAP machines, which can cost more than $2000 Australian and which you need to breathe while you are asleep. Without a CPAP machine, people with severe sleep apnoea can stop breathing and not start breathing again.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:55 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:55 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm in Australia. My front door is down a long driveway and is not visible from the street or from the footpath, and I also have a very large red locked parcel drop box right next to my front door. (Open hatch at the top to put parcels inside, enter combination to unlock and retrieve parcels at the bottom.)
I always request that vendors send parcels Authority to Leave.
I have a giant sign on my front door that says "someone in this house is immunocompromised, please leave all parcels at the door".
The biggest problem I have with delivery drivers is that they often either don't knock; or they knock and drive off 5 seconds later; and either way, they kidnap my parcel back to a delivery centre that I can't get to because
a) I'm isolating at home to avoid catching COVID;
b) the delivery centre is nowhere near public transport, so I can't ask a friend to go get the parcel for me, either.
It's not true that parcel delivery problems are a minor issue. For those of us who are chronically ill/Disabled/isolating to avoid catching COVID/housebound, we get EVERYTHING that we need through parcel delivery. Parcel delivery is a vital lifeline for essential goods, including medications and medical equipment.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 2:56 AM on October 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I always request that vendors send parcels Authority to Leave.
I have a giant sign on my front door that says "someone in this house is immunocompromised, please leave all parcels at the door".
The biggest problem I have with delivery drivers is that they often either don't knock; or they knock and drive off 5 seconds later; and either way, they kidnap my parcel back to a delivery centre that I can't get to because
a) I'm isolating at home to avoid catching COVID;
b) the delivery centre is nowhere near public transport, so I can't ask a friend to go get the parcel for me, either.
It's not true that parcel delivery problems are a minor issue. For those of us who are chronically ill/Disabled/isolating to avoid catching COVID/housebound, we get EVERYTHING that we need through parcel delivery. Parcel delivery is a vital lifeline for essential goods, including medications and medical equipment.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 2:56 AM on October 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
All of this makes me laugh as I think back to childhood and a package might take 6-8 weeks to arrive. In those days deliveries of packages was a *rare* thing and more of an event. Today it's just a regular part of life.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by drstrangelove at 4:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I’ve had that same talk at my house too, drstrangelove. If Amazon is a few hours late with a hotly anticipated item, I regale the children with stories of “8-10 weeks for delivery” for back issues of comics to be delivered by third class mail in my day.
Then they give me warm milk and put me to bed, so I’ve got that going for me.
posted by dr_dank at 4:26 AM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Then they give me warm milk and put me to bed, so I’ve got that going for me.
posted by dr_dank at 4:26 AM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just out of nowhere, it's so odd you people in the US and other rich parts of the world have your deliveries just left there.
In Chile, and I'm guessing much of the not-rich world, delivery people ring your doorbell. You go out, say thank you, and they hand it to you.
Nobody would just leave something out there where anybody could, and would, just take it.
posted by signal at 5:14 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
In Chile, and I'm guessing much of the not-rich world, delivery people ring your doorbell. You go out, say thank you, and they hand it to you.
Nobody would just leave something out there where anybody could, and would, just take it.
posted by signal at 5:14 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's not common in the UK either, at least not until very recently with the rise of low cost delivery companies. Royal Mail don't do it (or at least, aren't meant to) unless explicitly instructed.
posted by grahamparks at 6:03 AM on October 25, 2022
posted by grahamparks at 6:03 AM on October 25, 2022
Malaysia isn't too different from Chile socioeconomically I think (certainly I feel Chile has the better political conditions!), and that's not the culture here at all. There are thefts, but not an epidemic the way it seems to be described here? Slippers & shoes at the mosque? Sure. Fruits on the tree? Yes? But rich or poor, unless it's really a bizarre case/motivated individual, no one touches unopened packages. Apartments or landed properties. I'm trying to think if it's significantly worse in poorer areas, but really, people do mind their own business. In fact, it's more bougie apartments if the security is lax where packages can get lost. My side of the street faces the main intersection and people walk by but the only thing jealous of my delivery is the weather. Another classic setup in apartments would be the security guards doing receptionist duty and just dumps the package in some corner of the lobby (and you sort yourself out). If anything, private delivery improved the service of the national post as well (wow classic capitalism that works) - I get Whatsapp messages with photos to show it's been delivered for the private ones while the national post sometimes calls but at least they actually left the packages instead of the reflexive, "sorry we missed you" card.
But other parts of the culture is also different. Working-wise, everyone's a little 'naughty' at work, but using one's office address as receiving address is not even frowned on at all. The receptionist will sign on it, like anything else. In rural areas, we tend to use religious buildings along with civic community halls as a postal address too, not to mention the local grocery/sundry shop who'll keep an eye on it.
And public and private, postal delivery guys and girls look out for each other - i'd get calls from those who have established routes if there's no car at the house (i.e. maybe no one is at home). Fedex and DHL guys have official practice of calling 5 minutes ahead from arrival, I think? As in, I don't know if it's official but we get those calls. And they're also stressed about daily quotas to meet, sure, but on the other hand if the management wants to do paranoid stuff about time theft, very rarely you find people on their side. And on the customer side, it's not unusual for people to treat delivery people to a bit of food or drink.
I don't want to convey a utopia, but it's not a given at all, where I am, that a neighbourhood's wealth status correlates with delivery thefts.
posted by cendawanita at 6:28 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
But other parts of the culture is also different. Working-wise, everyone's a little 'naughty' at work, but using one's office address as receiving address is not even frowned on at all. The receptionist will sign on it, like anything else. In rural areas, we tend to use religious buildings along with civic community halls as a postal address too, not to mention the local grocery/sundry shop who'll keep an eye on it.
And public and private, postal delivery guys and girls look out for each other - i'd get calls from those who have established routes if there's no car at the house (i.e. maybe no one is at home). Fedex and DHL guys have official practice of calling 5 minutes ahead from arrival, I think? As in, I don't know if it's official but we get those calls. And they're also stressed about daily quotas to meet, sure, but on the other hand if the management wants to do paranoid stuff about time theft, very rarely you find people on their side. And on the customer side, it's not unusual for people to treat delivery people to a bit of food or drink.
I don't want to convey a utopia, but it's not a given at all, where I am, that a neighbourhood's wealth status correlates with delivery thefts.
posted by cendawanita at 6:28 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
In terms of drivers and deliveries and "doing a bad job" - if we don't want people to do a bad job, we can't make them work in conditions which make bad jobs almost inevitable. If we as a society don't want to change working conditions, we are saying that we don't care about workers but we are also saying that we don't care about disabled people who need fragile items delivered quickly, etc.
People deliver stuff sloppily or wrong mostly because they are under a huge time pressure from the company and have more packages than a reasonable person can deliver on one shift. It's quicker to toss something on the steps than to ring and wait and ring and wait or to go to the neighbor's. And if you're slow, the company knows it immediately because of their tracking devices and/or because of the complaints they encourage customers to make and then, boom, you're fired.
Or what if you're sick on a job that has no sick time and demands a very high throughput? Are you going to skimp everything that can be skimped? You bet you are. Or if this is your second job that you do after another very demanding and low-paid one?
Or, for that matter, if you're miserable and poor and badly educated and your life is extremely foreclosed, what incentive do you have to do a good job? Your life is going to be shitty jobs and limited medical care and precarious housing until either job loss and homelessness or an early death or maybe if you're lucky disability sufficient that you can get payments and stay housed.
We live in a society that wants to maximally exploit people and use force and technology to shut down every single little bit of individual scope or resistance for both practical and ideological reasons.
If we want our stuff delivered perfectly by subservient (but with personality!!!! don't forget the little dances and snappy comebacks!!!!) delivery people and we don't want to pay for the true cost, then we want violence. It's like if you don't want to see homeless people but you don't want to house them. If you want two things that are only made compatible by violence, then you want violence.
Things are getting worse and worse and they are not likely to get better with the climate crisis, etc, and the same kind of intensification of surveillance and exploitation is creeping up the job ladder. We learn to accept that our stuff is delivered by people working in unacceptably stressful, miserable and poorly paid conditions; in ten years, the people a rung or two up from us are going to accept that it is normal for accountants, web developers, hospital administrators etc to be heavily surveilled, part-time workers who are barely able to stay housed. If the customer is always right, well, eventually only the very rich can afford to be customers, so....
posted by Frowner at 6:38 AM on October 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
People deliver stuff sloppily or wrong mostly because they are under a huge time pressure from the company and have more packages than a reasonable person can deliver on one shift. It's quicker to toss something on the steps than to ring and wait and ring and wait or to go to the neighbor's. And if you're slow, the company knows it immediately because of their tracking devices and/or because of the complaints they encourage customers to make and then, boom, you're fired.
Or what if you're sick on a job that has no sick time and demands a very high throughput? Are you going to skimp everything that can be skimped? You bet you are. Or if this is your second job that you do after another very demanding and low-paid one?
Or, for that matter, if you're miserable and poor and badly educated and your life is extremely foreclosed, what incentive do you have to do a good job? Your life is going to be shitty jobs and limited medical care and precarious housing until either job loss and homelessness or an early death or maybe if you're lucky disability sufficient that you can get payments and stay housed.
We live in a society that wants to maximally exploit people and use force and technology to shut down every single little bit of individual scope or resistance for both practical and ideological reasons.
If we want our stuff delivered perfectly by subservient (but with personality!!!! don't forget the little dances and snappy comebacks!!!!) delivery people and we don't want to pay for the true cost, then we want violence. It's like if you don't want to see homeless people but you don't want to house them. If you want two things that are only made compatible by violence, then you want violence.
Things are getting worse and worse and they are not likely to get better with the climate crisis, etc, and the same kind of intensification of surveillance and exploitation is creeping up the job ladder. We learn to accept that our stuff is delivered by people working in unacceptably stressful, miserable and poorly paid conditions; in ten years, the people a rung or two up from us are going to accept that it is normal for accountants, web developers, hospital administrators etc to be heavily surveilled, part-time workers who are barely able to stay housed. If the customer is always right, well, eventually only the very rich can afford to be customers, so....
posted by Frowner at 6:38 AM on October 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
So am I, and indeed I wouldn't use them -- I just wanted to push back on the idea that theft of deliveries is just no big deal because people who get delivery (presumably middle class or above?) don't actually get anything important delivered.
think I've mentioned taquito boyfriend's tropical plant addiction on the blue before, but we get a lot of seeds & saplings delivered, & some are genuinely irreplaceable, in a "this hibiscus grower is retiring" or a "these are the last seeds from some random backyard jaboticaba I found on a forum" kind of way
if they get stolen, which generally in our neighborhood they do not, they don't get planted & cared for, which means the tree's genetic line is down one vector, & taquito boyfriend's out whatever he spent on 'em, also he is Sad
yesterday I got a package with a handmade cross-stitch of Napstablook that was a donation raffle prize from Summer Games Done Quick, and I am dead chuffed about it; if that had been stolen I can only imagine the thief being like "what is this Undertale garbage" & tossing it into a bougainvillea
is either of those super important in the grand scheme of things? no, but also it seems like this conversation is veering towards a false dichotomy where in order to be on Team Service Worker you have to agree that porch piracy is a victimless crime that is fine, actually, and I really don't think that's a genuine binary?
like I think it's okay to be angry when people steal necessary/emotionally important objects from other people & also it's okay to be pissed off at an oppressive corporate regime that treats service workers like shit & refuse to participate in their oppression
posted by taquito sunrise at 6:47 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
think I've mentioned taquito boyfriend's tropical plant addiction on the blue before, but we get a lot of seeds & saplings delivered, & some are genuinely irreplaceable, in a "this hibiscus grower is retiring" or a "these are the last seeds from some random backyard jaboticaba I found on a forum" kind of way
if they get stolen, which generally in our neighborhood they do not, they don't get planted & cared for, which means the tree's genetic line is down one vector, & taquito boyfriend's out whatever he spent on 'em, also he is Sad
yesterday I got a package with a handmade cross-stitch of Napstablook that was a donation raffle prize from Summer Games Done Quick, and I am dead chuffed about it; if that had been stolen I can only imagine the thief being like "what is this Undertale garbage" & tossing it into a bougainvillea
is either of those super important in the grand scheme of things? no, but also it seems like this conversation is veering towards a false dichotomy where in order to be on Team Service Worker you have to agree that porch piracy is a victimless crime that is fine, actually, and I really don't think that's a genuine binary?
like I think it's okay to be angry when people steal necessary/emotionally important objects from other people & also it's okay to be pissed off at an oppressive corporate regime that treats service workers like shit & refuse to participate in their oppression
posted by taquito sunrise at 6:47 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
Just out of nowhere, it's so odd you people in the US and other rich parts of the world have your deliveries just left there. In Chile, and I'm guessing much of the not-rich world, delivery people ring your doorbell. You go out, say thank you, and they hand it to you.
I mean, that only works when someone is always home, which until the pandemic was very much not the norm in the US. That is how it basically used to work, regardless, which simply meant everyone had the experience described by chariot pulled by cassowaries: your package never did get to your house, it got left across town at some kind of facility, and lord help you if you were disabled/didn't drive/didn't get time off from your job, you just never saw that thing again.
The situation that makes people feel like they need ring cameras at their houses and ring cameras in their FedEx trucks etc. is the result of literally every system being broken. There is no sense trying to argue what is the most broken, it's all of them. What was the stat on here the other day? 27% of adults feel too stressed to adequately function right now?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:50 AM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I mean, that only works when someone is always home, which until the pandemic was very much not the norm in the US. That is how it basically used to work, regardless, which simply meant everyone had the experience described by chariot pulled by cassowaries: your package never did get to your house, it got left across town at some kind of facility, and lord help you if you were disabled/didn't drive/didn't get time off from your job, you just never saw that thing again.
The situation that makes people feel like they need ring cameras at their houses and ring cameras in their FedEx trucks etc. is the result of literally every system being broken. There is no sense trying to argue what is the most broken, it's all of them. What was the stat on here the other day? 27% of adults feel too stressed to adequately function right now?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:50 AM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I guess it's just that Chile is a low-trust society, where people a) assume everybody else will steal from them and b) might steal from others just because why not.
posted by signal at 7:14 AM on October 25, 2022
posted by signal at 7:14 AM on October 25, 2022
Man I gotta say when I broke my leg and my husband was gone 15 hours a day (8 working, 3 commuting, 4 in school after work), having a Ring really saved me. I could speak to people ringing the doorbell/leaving packages when I was physically unable to get out of the bed without extreme pain or taking a good 20 minutes to get there with my walker.
There was a 3-month period when I was alone most of my waking hours and unable to walk, carry objects, answer the door, bring in the mail, etc. Having a locked mailbox and being able to tell people with packages to come around the side and leave them in my back yard where they'd be safe from the hundreds of elementary and middle school kids/adults walking through the front yard was a real blessing. (My front door's 300 feet from the entrance to a large school and polling location, and my house sits on the corner of a major intersection in my neighborhood between 2 playgrounds and a dog park.)
I wasn't keen on one until necessity made it the better option. Now, I mostly only check it if we're out of town and I'm expecting a delivery. I do know these devices can be used by law enforcement without people's knowledge, and that bothers me - we set up our recordings to back up to a private server and cloud-based account vs. subscribing to the service itself, but I don't know how much that matters.
I always leave positive feedback for as many deliveries as I can and tip at least $15/$25 for everything, depending on the size and cost. But, I also know not everyone does this.
If you're a delivery driver/worker of any kind, thank you for your service! I appreciate you, you're a real life saver (sometimes literally).
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 7:51 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
There was a 3-month period when I was alone most of my waking hours and unable to walk, carry objects, answer the door, bring in the mail, etc. Having a locked mailbox and being able to tell people with packages to come around the side and leave them in my back yard where they'd be safe from the hundreds of elementary and middle school kids/adults walking through the front yard was a real blessing. (My front door's 300 feet from the entrance to a large school and polling location, and my house sits on the corner of a major intersection in my neighborhood between 2 playgrounds and a dog park.)
I wasn't keen on one until necessity made it the better option. Now, I mostly only check it if we're out of town and I'm expecting a delivery. I do know these devices can be used by law enforcement without people's knowledge, and that bothers me - we set up our recordings to back up to a private server and cloud-based account vs. subscribing to the service itself, but I don't know how much that matters.
I always leave positive feedback for as many deliveries as I can and tip at least $15/$25 for everything, depending on the size and cost. But, I also know not everyone does this.
If you're a delivery driver/worker of any kind, thank you for your service! I appreciate you, you're a real life saver (sometimes literally).
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 7:51 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
In Chile, and I'm guessing much of the not-rich world, delivery people ring your doorbell. You go out, say thank you, and they hand it to you.
that's how it used to be in the US. when i was a kid my mom was stay at home and we knew the UPS guy's name and he would chat for a minute when he handed us the package. but now there is so much pressure to deliver as fast as possible, they don't have time to stand there for 90 seconds while you get to the door.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 8:17 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
that's how it used to be in the US. when i was a kid my mom was stay at home and we knew the UPS guy's name and he would chat for a minute when he handed us the package. but now there is so much pressure to deliver as fast as possible, they don't have time to stand there for 90 seconds while you get to the door.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 8:17 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
To illustrate the points I made earlier, these are some of the things I have relied on delivery drivers to bring me between 2020 and 2022:
Delivery #1 = a CPAP machine, without which I could stop breathing in my sleep and not start breathing again;
Delivery #2 = a high capacity battery so that I can run my CPAP machine for 8 hours even if there's a power failure;
Delivery #3 = a shower chair so that I can have a shower without falling over and concussing myself or breaking an arm/leg/hip.
Some of the things that people get home delivered are genuinely essential items.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:08 AM on October 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
Delivery #1 = a CPAP machine, without which I could stop breathing in my sleep and not start breathing again;
Delivery #2 = a high capacity battery so that I can run my CPAP machine for 8 hours even if there's a power failure;
Delivery #3 = a shower chair so that I can have a shower without falling over and concussing myself or breaking an arm/leg/hip.
Some of the things that people get home delivered are genuinely essential items.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:08 AM on October 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
If people are concerned with the wellbeing of delivery drivers, a good place to start would be putting pressure on delivery companies to air-condition delivery trucks.
"UPS refuses to give its drivers air conditioning. Then, when they get sick from overheating, they instruct them to call management, not 911. Temperatures in a UPS truck can reach more than 150 degrees Fahrenheit. One driver told us: it's 'so hot...we could scramble eggs on the shelf.' "
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
"UPS refuses to give its drivers air conditioning. Then, when they get sick from overheating, they instruct them to call management, not 911. Temperatures in a UPS truck can reach more than 150 degrees Fahrenheit. One driver told us: it's 'so hot...we could scramble eggs on the shelf.' "
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Considering the procedures last-mile delivery companies use, you can't really retrofit air conditioning into that. But ventilation? You bet they could fit their fleet with enough fans to keep inside temperatures from rising much above those outside. That's just a question of spending the money.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:30 AM on October 25, 2022
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:30 AM on October 25, 2022
Article about the lack of air con in UPS trucks [The Guardian] :
"The price some workers pay can be a deadly one. In early July in California, UPS driver Esteban Chavez, 24, collapsed and died while working as temperatures rose to the high 90s. A video from a Ring surveillance camera also went viral in July showing a UPS driver collapsing on a porch in excessive heat.
With contract negotiations set for next year, Leichenger and other workers represented by the Teamsters union are pushing for air conditioning in vehicles, better heat protection on the job, no more excessive overtime, higher pay for part-time workers, more full-time positions, and eliminating driver-facing surveillance cameras that are being installed in UPS trucks.
“We don’t have contractual language that guarantees us air conditioning, but I think this is something the federal government should really be stepping up to implement – not just at UPS, but for workers across every industry where extreme weather conditions are really taking a toll on workers,” Leichenger said.
Last week, the Teamsters demanded urgent details from UPS on the companies’ plans, training materials, and assessments on protecting workers from excessive heat. UPS reaped record profits last year, at $12.89bn, and reported $6.8bn for the first two quarters of this year.
“People are just dropping weekly here. It’s not something where that one driver in Arizona is going viral,” said Moe Nouhaili, a UPS driver in Las Vegas. “It’s not just the way that UPS is treating workers, it’s also how they’re making us work, expecting us to meet these unrealistic productivity numbers even through the weather."
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:35 AM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
"The price some workers pay can be a deadly one. In early July in California, UPS driver Esteban Chavez, 24, collapsed and died while working as temperatures rose to the high 90s. A video from a Ring surveillance camera also went viral in July showing a UPS driver collapsing on a porch in excessive heat.
With contract negotiations set for next year, Leichenger and other workers represented by the Teamsters union are pushing for air conditioning in vehicles, better heat protection on the job, no more excessive overtime, higher pay for part-time workers, more full-time positions, and eliminating driver-facing surveillance cameras that are being installed in UPS trucks.
“We don’t have contractual language that guarantees us air conditioning, but I think this is something the federal government should really be stepping up to implement – not just at UPS, but for workers across every industry where extreme weather conditions are really taking a toll on workers,” Leichenger said.
Last week, the Teamsters demanded urgent details from UPS on the companies’ plans, training materials, and assessments on protecting workers from excessive heat. UPS reaped record profits last year, at $12.89bn, and reported $6.8bn for the first two quarters of this year.
“People are just dropping weekly here. It’s not something where that one driver in Arizona is going viral,” said Moe Nouhaili, a UPS driver in Las Vegas. “It’s not just the way that UPS is treating workers, it’s also how they’re making us work, expecting us to meet these unrealistic productivity numbers even through the weather."
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:35 AM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Oh Christ, reading the quote from UPS in the Guardinan article linked above implying that the drivers having problems are not "maintaining good health practices" made my blood boil.
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:18 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:18 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I saw an article the other day about a pregnant UPS worker killing herself at the job after being fired.
I've always hated UPS. I've had so much stuff lost, broken, or pre-pandemic, the dreaded "I was home, nobody knocked, they just left a note and ran away taking the package with them somewhere I can't drive to." I learned I'd have to take the day off from work and SIT OUTSIDE MY DOOR IN THE COLD if UPS was supposed to come that day. I'm forced to use them for shipping at work and I find them all kinds of ridiculous as to charging to put instructions as to where to put things, not giving me tracking numbers, having huge problems at times delivering.
But reading some of this stuff...now I'm all oh, THAT's why...
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:31 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've always hated UPS. I've had so much stuff lost, broken, or pre-pandemic, the dreaded "I was home, nobody knocked, they just left a note and ran away taking the package with them somewhere I can't drive to." I learned I'd have to take the day off from work and SIT OUTSIDE MY DOOR IN THE COLD if UPS was supposed to come that day. I'm forced to use them for shipping at work and I find them all kinds of ridiculous as to charging to put instructions as to where to put things, not giving me tracking numbers, having huge problems at times delivering.
But reading some of this stuff...now I'm all oh, THAT's why...
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:31 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
In my area, UPS is amazing compared to Fedex. I think it mostly comes down to the delivery person/route you are on.
posted by ryanrs at 8:41 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by ryanrs at 8:41 PM on October 25, 2022
In Chile, and I'm guessing much of the not-rich world, delivery people ring your doorbell
See I remember a time when this was a thing and then the bean counters wanted the packages all delivered faster and faster, so the delivery folks don't have time to wait for someone to answer the door.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:37 PM on October 26, 2022
See I remember a time when this was a thing and then the bean counters wanted the packages all delivered faster and faster, so the delivery folks don't have time to wait for someone to answer the door.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:37 PM on October 26, 2022
It wasn’t all that long ago; 20 years ago in NYC my regular UPS driver would briefly chat when handing me packages.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:37 AM on October 27, 2022
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:37 AM on October 27, 2022
I live in a rowhouse in a neighborhood with a lot of foot traffic, so porch piracy is not uncommon, but I have found that my package theft has gone down to nearly zero with the addition of a package box like this. It's nothing fancy - it doesn't lock, it's not weighed down, not every package fits, and not every delivery person uses it, but when they do, it helps a ton by simply making packages less visible. For people with porches, I don't know why it isn't standard practice at this point.
posted by mosst at 8:55 AM on October 28, 2022
posted by mosst at 8:55 AM on October 28, 2022
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posted by Ideefixe at 2:12 PM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]