Mashed Potatoes on Monet
October 25, 2022 10:44 AM Subscribe
NY Times: Climate Activists Throw Mashed Potatoes on Monet Painting “After throwing mashed potatoes at a painting by Claude Monet, on exhibit in Potsdam, Germany, the climate protesters each glued a hand to the wall“
Previously Climate Protesters Throw Soup Over van Gogh’s ‘Sunflowers’
“The museum said that the food did not cause any damage to the piece, which sold for nearly $111 million in 2019. The painting will be on display again by Wednesday, the museum added.”
- What food & art combination should be up next? Leave your guess in the comments!
Previously Climate Protesters Throw Soup Over van Gogh’s ‘Sunflowers’
“The museum said that the food did not cause any damage to the piece, which sold for nearly $111 million in 2019. The painting will be on display again by Wednesday, the museum added.”
- What food & art combination should be up next? Leave your guess in the comments!
jam the head of a marble statue up the cavity of a turkey. Tis the season.
Obviously David would be best, but that's a big head. Something smaller, maybe a bust.
posted by shenkerism at 10:48 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Obviously David would be best, but that's a big head. Something smaller, maybe a bust.
posted by shenkerism at 10:48 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
at this point, Judy Chicago's The Dinner Party is apropos
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:51 AM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:51 AM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I have a statement to make, and I'd like to make it by pouring clam chowder over the heads of the people who keep doing this.
posted by vverse23 at 10:53 AM on October 25, 2022 [31 favorites]
posted by vverse23 at 10:53 AM on October 25, 2022 [31 favorites]
New England or Manhattan?
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:55 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:55 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
I also have a statement to make, and I'd like to make it by throwing clam chowder at a Warhol.
posted by box at 10:57 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by box at 10:57 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
At least the paintings haven't been damaged. I understand the theory behind these acts is "this will surely shock the world into taking the climate crisis seriously", but I don't know how it's actually working in practice. I feel like if I wanted to discredit this movement and make them look ridiculous or even inflame people against them, these are exactly the kinds of things I'd do.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:00 AM on October 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:00 AM on October 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
What food & art combination should be up next?
Sugar & gas tanks at the next NY auto show
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 11:00 AM on October 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
Sugar & gas tanks at the next NY auto show
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 11:00 AM on October 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
Considering a climate protestor self-immolated on the steps of the Supreme Court earlier THIS YEAR to draw attention to the cause and nobody talked about it... I'd say this food-on-art initiative has so far been quite effective at getting the subject of climate change into the global conversation.
posted by hippybear at 11:00 AM on October 25, 2022 [79 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 11:00 AM on October 25, 2022 [79 favorites]
I also have a statement to make, and I'd like to make it by throwing clam chowder at a Warhol.
I feel that would artistically enhance the work defaced. Especially the Campbell Soup can works.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:01 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel that would artistically enhance the work defaced. Especially the Campbell Soup can works.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:01 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
If we have literally the same conversation we had last time about this, I think we pretty well prove the protestor's point.
posted by mittens at 11:02 AM on October 25, 2022 [32 favorites]
posted by mittens at 11:02 AM on October 25, 2022 [32 favorites]
Meanwhile over in Wolfsburg Germany some protesters glued their hands to the floor at the VW Autostadt museum.
"The protesters complained about the poor “conditions” they were put in, when Autostadt staff turned off the lights and the heating at the end of the workday"posted by JoeZydeco at 11:02 AM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
As much as I appreciate people’s concern about the impending climate disaster, throwing food at paintings in a museum just trivializes the protest into getting your picture spread all over the media. And if they enjoy gluing their hands to things, why don’t they glue their hands to the front doors of the major oil company headquarters? The PETA people used to handcuff themselves to the doors of the Nieman-Marcus store here in town over fur coats. If my memory isn’t too faulty, I think that may have led to a banning of fur sales here. Or not…
posted by njohnson23 at 11:04 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 11:04 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
I forsee a very expensive restaurant in the future where you get a multicourse dinner where each course is served on top of a priceless artwork. The restaurant will be on a yacht anchored somewhere roughly where Miami once was.
posted by dis_integration at 11:05 AM on October 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 11:05 AM on October 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
Today: 28 members of Scientist Rebellion and @DebtforClimate are currently blockading the BlackRock building in Munich, resisting their role in deadly fossil fuel expansion and debt of the Global South.
posted by gwint at 11:06 AM on October 25, 2022 [37 favorites]
posted by gwint at 11:06 AM on October 25, 2022 [37 favorites]
Today: Climate Change Activists block Park Ave demanding justice 10 years after Hurricane Sandy.
posted by gwint at 11:07 AM on October 25, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by gwint at 11:07 AM on October 25, 2022 [26 favorites]
Today: At 11am today, six Just Stop Oil supporters blocked the road and sprayed paint on 55 Tufton Street – headquarters of fossil fuel lobbyists that backed Liz Truss.
posted by gwint at 11:08 AM on October 25, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by gwint at 11:08 AM on October 25, 2022 [29 favorites]
Magritte and applesauce
The Scream and ice cream
Warhol and...uh, more soup, I guess
posted by daisystomper at 11:09 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Scream and ice cream
Warhol and...uh, more soup, I guess
posted by daisystomper at 11:09 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'd say this food-on-art initiative has so far been quite effective at getting the subject of climate change into the global conversation.
Yes, but that's my point: in a positive way? It's not true that all PR is good PR. Are people who weren't already on board looking at these acts and going "Wow, I wasn't sure about climate change before, but now I'm against it"? The general reactions I'm seeing are more along the lines of "these fucking kids".
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:09 AM on October 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
Yes, but that's my point: in a positive way? It's not true that all PR is good PR. Are people who weren't already on board looking at these acts and going "Wow, I wasn't sure about climate change before, but now I'm against it"? The general reactions I'm seeing are more along the lines of "these fucking kids".
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:09 AM on October 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
Tomato soup on one of Warhol's Campbell's Soup paintings (currently at MOMA, I believe) would be just super, in my opinion.
My first, instinctive reaction to the previous protest was admittedly the itritation of a curmudgeonly old man, but really the proof is in the, uh, pudding given how effective this has been at producing publicity for this urgent cause.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:10 AM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
My first, instinctive reaction to the previous protest was admittedly the itritation of a curmudgeonly old man, but really the proof is in the, uh, pudding given how effective this has been at producing publicity for this urgent cause.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:10 AM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think the fascist GOP has shown us pretty well in the last few years that all attention, good or bad, is valuable and can be leveraged.
posted by daisystomper at 11:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by daisystomper at 11:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm seeing little coverage of self-immolations, possibly because of some media outlets wanting to downplay suicide.
The other, non-food actions don't get nearly as much traction as the soup-painting attacks. Which says something about us.
I'm still surprised no American driver has shot a traffic blocking protestor.
posted by doctornemo at 11:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
The other, non-food actions don't get nearly as much traction as the soup-painting attacks. Which says something about us.
I'm still surprised no American driver has shot a traffic blocking protestor.
posted by doctornemo at 11:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
why don’t they glue their hands to the front doors of the major oil company headquarters?
well, they tried that too. I guess the fact that this isn't more broadly known just goes to show how they had to change tactics.
posted by fregoli at 11:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [29 favorites]
well, they tried that too. I guess the fact that this isn't more broadly known just goes to show how they had to change tactics.
posted by fregoli at 11:11 AM on October 25, 2022 [29 favorites]
(Kraft singles stuck to American Gothic)
posted by daisystomper at 11:12 AM on October 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by daisystomper at 11:12 AM on October 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
The PETA people used to handcuff themselves to the doors of the Nieman-Marcus store here in town over fur coats.
Earth First! leader David Foreman's Eco-Defense: A Field Guide to Monkeywrenching suggested going to fur stores with a razor concealed in your palm and slitting the linings of coats.
The Animal Liberation Front used to release lab animals and vandalize research labs, including destroying research materials, before graduating to a string of arsons against furriers and fur farms.
There are people, then and now, who think the people handcuffing themselves to fur stores/throwing food at art aren't doing nearly enough.
posted by box at 11:14 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Earth First! leader David Foreman's Eco-Defense: A Field Guide to Monkeywrenching suggested going to fur stores with a razor concealed in your palm and slitting the linings of coats.
The Animal Liberation Front used to release lab animals and vandalize research labs, including destroying research materials, before graduating to a string of arsons against furriers and fur farms.
There are people, then and now, who think the people handcuffing themselves to fur stores/throwing food at art aren't doing nearly enough.
posted by box at 11:14 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm still surprised no American driver has shot a traffic blocking protestor.
Quite a few people have been killed or seriously injured in traffic blocking protests. It's easier to just use the deadly weapon you already have (your car). Protestors lives are generally not considered worth much ink in corporate media. Heather Heyer only got a lot of attention because it was part of the BLM/Trump news cycle. If she had been a climate protestor, it probably wouldn't have been a huge story.
posted by dis_integration at 11:19 AM on October 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
Quite a few people have been killed or seriously injured in traffic blocking protests. It's easier to just use the deadly weapon you already have (your car). Protestors lives are generally not considered worth much ink in corporate media. Heather Heyer only got a lot of attention because it was part of the BLM/Trump news cycle. If she had been a climate protestor, it probably wouldn't have been a huge story.
posted by dis_integration at 11:19 AM on October 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
Considering a climate protestor self-immolated on the steps of the Supreme Court earlier THIS YEAR to draw attention to the cause and nobody talked about it... I'd say this food-on-art initiative has so far been quite effective at getting the subject of climate change into the global conversation.
The wikipedia article about Wynn Bruce you linked to has about 50 newspaper articles in the footnotes, so I'd say a lot of people talked about his self-immolation.
The food protests aren't getting climate change into the conversation, they're getting a "look! some crazy people just dumped food on a painting" into the conversation. That's not the same thing.
posted by Galvanic at 11:22 AM on October 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
The wikipedia article about Wynn Bruce you linked to has about 50 newspaper articles in the footnotes, so I'd say a lot of people talked about his self-immolation.
The food protests aren't getting climate change into the conversation, they're getting a "look! some crazy people just dumped food on a painting" into the conversation. That's not the same thing.
posted by Galvanic at 11:22 AM on October 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
“There are people, then and now, who think the people handcuffing themselves to fur stores/throwing food at art aren't doing nearly enough.”
Rightly, I think.
I'm old and complacent about the oncoming global climate disaster — as many of my generation are — and I personally don't have much at stake as I don't expect to be alive beyond, say, the next ten or so years.
But, really, I think people in the 22nd century will be wondering why there hadn't already been mass violent protest and sabotage by this stage of things. It's justified.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:23 AM on October 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
Rightly, I think.
I'm old and complacent about the oncoming global climate disaster — as many of my generation are — and I personally don't have much at stake as I don't expect to be alive beyond, say, the next ten or so years.
But, really, I think people in the 22nd century will be wondering why there hadn't already been mass violent protest and sabotage by this stage of things. It's justified.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:23 AM on October 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
The general lack of monkeywrench protests against the actual carbon delivery infrastructure does continue to be a bit of a mystery to me.
posted by hippybear at 11:25 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 11:25 AM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
If the "conversation" includes what right-wing news outlets say, then I'd like to point out that Fox News has quoted these protestors saying that fossil fuels are killing us all. So that counts as success.
posted by mittens at 11:27 AM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by mittens at 11:27 AM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I 100% support reducing carbon emissions and methane emissions,
but I really don't think the throwing food at art protests are effective.
I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the throwing food at art protests were designed to alienate people from the stop-climate-change-movement and to bring the stop-climate-change-movement into disrepute.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 11:27 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
but I really don't think the throwing food at art protests are effective.
I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the throwing food at art protests were designed to alienate people from the stop-climate-change-movement and to bring the stop-climate-change-movement into disrepute.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 11:27 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
You are about to die because the room is overheating. You've tried everything to get them to turn down the heat but for whatever reason the people monitoring the cameras aren't doing anything. You have a can of soup and there's a famous painting protected by glass. [source]
posted by simmering octagon at 11:38 AM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by simmering octagon at 11:38 AM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Can someone please find me a single person who has changed their mind to "We should do less about climate change because I have witnessed protesters throw food at the glass in front of paintings"?
Honestly, people seem to spend more time fretting about what some imaginary "moderate" person might think about these protests than what they actually mean to themselves.
posted by gwint at 11:39 AM on October 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
Honestly, people seem to spend more time fretting about what some imaginary "moderate" person might think about these protests than what they actually mean to themselves.
posted by gwint at 11:39 AM on October 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
In case wall taters is too sublime a take on art destruction then for your sensibilities Jimmy Carr brings you:
"The ‘8 Out of 10 Cats’ comic stands before an audience and asks whether he should destroy artworks by Adolf Hitler, Rolf Harris and Picasso. Even if it weren’t for Carr’s own sketchy history with controversy, Channel 4’s new programme would be a terrible idea, writes Louis Chilton."
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 11:40 AM on October 25, 2022
"The ‘8 Out of 10 Cats’ comic stands before an audience and asks whether he should destroy artworks by Adolf Hitler, Rolf Harris and Picasso. Even if it weren’t for Carr’s own sketchy history with controversy, Channel 4’s new programme would be a terrible idea, writes Louis Chilton."
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 11:40 AM on October 25, 2022
- What food & art combination should be up next? Leave your guess in the comments!
I was trying to think of a food that could represent the US border wall. Lemonade at the statue of liberty.
posted by aniola at 11:45 AM on October 25, 2022
I was trying to think of a food that could represent the US border wall. Lemonade at the statue of liberty.
posted by aniola at 11:45 AM on October 25, 2022
Those are the runniest mash potatoes I have ever seen. I was expecting to see what would probably look like fluffy clouds on a monet painting but instead I just saw sadness and I am not talking about the art.
posted by srboisvert at 11:48 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 11:48 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the throwing food at art protests were designed to alienate people from the stop-climate-change-movement and to bring the stop-climate-change-movement into disrepute.
Never attribute to malice what is easily explained by stupidity.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 11:49 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Never attribute to malice what is easily explained by stupidity.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 11:49 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
The wikipedia article about Wynn Bruce you linked to has about 50 newspaper articles in the footnotes,
I see 26, maybe we're looking at different things.
There are over 10 cites on the Just Stop Oil wikipedia page with articles to the Van Gogh incident alone, and literally no one died or even got hurt.
posted by phunniemee at 11:51 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I see 26, maybe we're looking at different things.
There are over 10 cites on the Just Stop Oil wikipedia page with articles to the Van Gogh incident alone, and literally no one died or even got hurt.
posted by phunniemee at 11:51 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I' d like to quote trigs comment from the Sunflower thread. Why are you guys complaining about this protest instead of talking about this?
Between the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act that the former home secretary Priti Patel rushed through parliament, and the public order bill over which Cruella Braverman presides, the government is carefully criminalising every effective means of protest in England and Wales, leaving us with nothing but authorised processions conducted in near silence and letters to our MPs, which are universally ignored by both media and legislators.
The public order bill is the kind of legislation you might expect to see in Russia, Iran or Egypt. Illegal protest is defined by the bill as acts causing “serious disruption to two or more individuals, or to an organisation”. Given that the Police Act redefined “serious disruption” to include noise, this means, in effect, all meaningful protest.
For locking or glueing yourself to another protester, or to the railings or any other object, you can be sentenced to 51 weeks in prison – in other words, twice the maximum sentence for common assault. Sitting in the road, or obstructing fracking machinery, pipelines and other oil and gas infrastructure, airports or printing presses (Rupert says thanks) can get you a year. For digging a tunnel as part of a protest, you can be sent down for three years.
Even more sinister are the “serious disruption prevention orders” in the bill. Anyone who has taken part in a protest in England or Wales in the previous five years, whether or not they have been convicted of an offence, can be served with a two-year order forbidding them from attending further protests. Like prisoners on probation, they may be required to report to “a particular person at a particular place at ... particular times on particular days”, “to remain at a particular place for particular periods” and to submit to wearing an electronic tag. They may not associate “with particular persons”, enter “particular areas” or use the internet to encourage other people to protest. If you break these terms, you face up to 51 weeks in prison. So much for “civilised” and “democratic”.
And of course these measures are consistently applied.
Even for those who don't like this particular protest, or don't think it's effective, maybe the takeaway should still be "I don't personally like it but I will speak up for their right and ability to do it."
posted by trig at 8:23 AM on October 19
posted by Zumbador at 11:52 AM on October 25, 2022 [33 favorites]
Between the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act that the former home secretary Priti Patel rushed through parliament, and the public order bill over which Cruella Braverman presides, the government is carefully criminalising every effective means of protest in England and Wales, leaving us with nothing but authorised processions conducted in near silence and letters to our MPs, which are universally ignored by both media and legislators.
The public order bill is the kind of legislation you might expect to see in Russia, Iran or Egypt. Illegal protest is defined by the bill as acts causing “serious disruption to two or more individuals, or to an organisation”. Given that the Police Act redefined “serious disruption” to include noise, this means, in effect, all meaningful protest.
For locking or glueing yourself to another protester, or to the railings or any other object, you can be sentenced to 51 weeks in prison – in other words, twice the maximum sentence for common assault. Sitting in the road, or obstructing fracking machinery, pipelines and other oil and gas infrastructure, airports or printing presses (Rupert says thanks) can get you a year. For digging a tunnel as part of a protest, you can be sent down for three years.
Even more sinister are the “serious disruption prevention orders” in the bill. Anyone who has taken part in a protest in England or Wales in the previous five years, whether or not they have been convicted of an offence, can be served with a two-year order forbidding them from attending further protests. Like prisoners on probation, they may be required to report to “a particular person at a particular place at ... particular times on particular days”, “to remain at a particular place for particular periods” and to submit to wearing an electronic tag. They may not associate “with particular persons”, enter “particular areas” or use the internet to encourage other people to protest. If you break these terms, you face up to 51 weeks in prison. So much for “civilised” and “democratic”.
And of course these measures are consistently applied.
Even for those who don't like this particular protest, or don't think it's effective, maybe the takeaway should still be "I don't personally like it but I will speak up for their right and ability to do it."
posted by trig at 8:23 AM on October 19
posted by Zumbador at 11:52 AM on October 25, 2022 [33 favorites]
I am all for non-damaging things flung at artwork to get attention. But activists who block roads need to change their tactics. That is genuinely counterproductive and potentially really dangerous.
posted by zardoz at 11:52 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by zardoz at 11:52 AM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I can feel so despondent when actions like these merely provoke reactions like “why? Who is going to change their mind when you do this?” on the one hand and “they should do much more!” on the other. These are people who are extremely worried about our planet’s (let alone humanity’s) future and take to action to generate attention in an era when wars are fought more than ever online and there just is no truth anymore. What should they do to sound the alarm when self-immolation is apparently not enough and violence or hurting others would be completely the wrong message?
At least they’re not throwing spaghetti to the ceiling of the Sistine chapel to see if it sticks.
posted by fregoli at 11:56 AM on October 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
At least they’re not throwing spaghetti to the ceiling of the Sistine chapel to see if it sticks.
posted by fregoli at 11:56 AM on October 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Surely they should have used Mornay sauce.
(Hollandaise is for the Dutch Masters.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:56 AM on October 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
(Hollandaise is for the Dutch Masters.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:56 AM on October 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
What should they do to sound the alarm when self-immolation is apparently not enough and violence or hurting others would be completely the wrong message?
I'd again mention monkeywrench protests. They are violent but not against people. They do hurt people but by damaging the infrastructure that is causing greater planetary damage. I don't know if you can't do a protest that doesn't somehow inconvenience people or make their lives change enough that they are forced to notice. Blocking roads is such a small thing compared to maybe some well-distributed C4 charges along a lot of the gasoline distribution pipeline infrastructure we have stretched all over this country.
posted by hippybear at 11:58 AM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd again mention monkeywrench protests. They are violent but not against people. They do hurt people but by damaging the infrastructure that is causing greater planetary damage. I don't know if you can't do a protest that doesn't somehow inconvenience people or make their lives change enough that they are forced to notice. Blocking roads is such a small thing compared to maybe some well-distributed C4 charges along a lot of the gasoline distribution pipeline infrastructure we have stretched all over this country.
posted by hippybear at 11:58 AM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
The combination of a rebreather (to reduce the bubble trail), a DPV (to allow entry and exit far from the scene), some simple underwater demolition charges, and a marina full of unoccupied megayachts seems like a pretty safe and effective way to reduce emissions without too much collateral damage.
posted by jedicus at 12:03 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 12:03 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Love it. Loved the soup, love the mashed potatoes, bless these folks for trying something, anything. This will get so much crazier until things change...much like the planet itself.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:04 PM on October 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:04 PM on October 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
The general lack of monkeywrench protests against the actual carbon delivery infrastructure does continue to be a bit of a mystery to me.
Me too! Especially since indigenous-led resistance using conventional strategies (protests, blockades, legal action) has prevented the equivalent of 25% of US & Canadian annual emissions over the past decade. Opposition to the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion here in BC actually succeeded in making it too expensive to be worth building (which is why Trudeau stepped in to buy the pipeline). Ramping that up to include actual sabotage would likely be even more effective.
Of course, it's probably pretty tricky to do it without causing oil spills or other environmental damage along the way. And I'm not sure people fully appreciate just how heavily policed this sort of thing is. The RCMP has at least 40 people working on a single attack on a construction site in northern BC; ongoing surveillance of climate activists is pervasive and widespread. They work hard to protect those pipelines.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 12:05 PM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
Me too! Especially since indigenous-led resistance using conventional strategies (protests, blockades, legal action) has prevented the equivalent of 25% of US & Canadian annual emissions over the past decade. Opposition to the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion here in BC actually succeeded in making it too expensive to be worth building (which is why Trudeau stepped in to buy the pipeline). Ramping that up to include actual sabotage would likely be even more effective.
Of course, it's probably pretty tricky to do it without causing oil spills or other environmental damage along the way. And I'm not sure people fully appreciate just how heavily policed this sort of thing is. The RCMP has at least 40 people working on a single attack on a construction site in northern BC; ongoing surveillance of climate activists is pervasive and widespread. They work hard to protect those pipelines.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 12:05 PM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
jam the head of a marble statue up the cavity of a turkey
stopoilartducken
posted by chavenet at 12:07 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
stopoilartducken
posted by chavenet at 12:07 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
The combination of a rebreather (to reduce the bubble trail), a DPV (to allow entry and exit far from the scene), some simple underwater demolition charges, and a marina full of unoccupied megayachts seems like a pretty safe and effective way to reduce emissions without too much collateral damage.
You want to be DAMNED sure that those yachts are really unoccupied (including no cleaning staff or caretaking/maintenance staff)
or you've got the Rainbow Warrior all over again...
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2022
You want to be DAMNED sure that those yachts are really unoccupied (including no cleaning staff or caretaking/maintenance staff)
or you've got the Rainbow Warrior all over again...
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2022
I am all for non-damaging things flung at artwork to get attention. But activists who block roads need to change their tactics. That is genuinely counterproductive and potentially really dangerous.
This is the logic that Canada's federal government and the RCMP has been using to justify throwing things like sniper teams at unarmed people conducting blockades of Coastal GasLink pipeline construction. These are protests that have been addressing the above-mentioned question of targeting "actual carbon delivery infrastructure" for protest.
See also: Standing Rock.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is the logic that Canada's federal government and the RCMP has been using to justify throwing things like sniper teams at unarmed people conducting blockades of Coastal GasLink pipeline construction. These are protests that have been addressing the above-mentioned question of targeting "actual carbon delivery infrastructure" for protest.
See also: Standing Rock.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
This sort of thing is everywhere pipelines run. Even buried pipelines have to come up for air (heat) sometimes or the stuff in them gets too sluggish to pump easily. Nothing near it that might be endangered if an accident were to happen, yet easy to get to for service/maintenance.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2022
I understand the theory behind these acts is "this will surely shock the world into taking the climate crisis seriously", but I don't know how it's actually working in practice. I feel like if I wanted to discredit this movement and make them look ridiculous or even inflame people against them, these are exactly the kinds of things I'd do.
Are people who weren't already on board looking at these acts and going "Wow, I wasn't sure about climate change before, but now I'm against it"? The general reactions I'm seeing are more along the lines of "these fucking kids".
Seconded.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:11 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Are people who weren't already on board looking at these acts and going "Wow, I wasn't sure about climate change before, but now I'm against it"? The general reactions I'm seeing are more along the lines of "these fucking kids".
Seconded.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:11 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
The general lack of monkeywrench protests against the actual carbon delivery infrastructure does continue to be a bit of a mystery to me.
Consider what happens to people who actually do things like that. I’m not sure I quite get the painting thing myself, though. I suppose the idea is that it gets reported like they actually defaced the painting, but (perhaps) without quite the same legal consequences. But then either people find out that the painting is fine and go - huh, or they don’t and they ask why are you trying to get locked up destroying paintings instead of actual carbon infrastructure?
I think one could argue that the “these fucking kids” angle means it gets into the news in a way that the serious shit often doesn’t, but that’s implicitly because the news thinks it’s less serious.
posted by atoxyl at 12:17 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Consider what happens to people who actually do things like that. I’m not sure I quite get the painting thing myself, though. I suppose the idea is that it gets reported like they actually defaced the painting, but (perhaps) without quite the same legal consequences. But then either people find out that the painting is fine and go - huh, or they don’t and they ask why are you trying to get locked up destroying paintings instead of actual carbon infrastructure?
I think one could argue that the “these fucking kids” angle means it gets into the news in a way that the serious shit often doesn’t, but that’s implicitly because the news thinks it’s less serious.
posted by atoxyl at 12:17 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd again mention monkeywrench protests. They are violent but not against people.
People are still doing these kinds of things. You're not hearing about it because the protesters either get locked up or mired in protracted and often sealed trials and it just doesn't make the news.
Apparently it's also a really good way to get hit with broad-stroke terrorism charges thanks to the current state of politics and policing, which has very likely put a damper on anyone attempting monkeywrenching actions.
I vaguely know someone who has done banner hangs and blocked transportation infrastructure and they were in and out of court for years getting strung along by the prosecution and courts.
To be honest I don't know what is an effective way to protest climate change or raise awareness and action over it.
It's simply not enough to ask people to use less resources or energy, and by and large most people don't want to because it means personal discomfort and having less. It also means financial loss through sinking stock and investment values and people making the voluntary choice to threaten their later financial security in retirement.
And the companies and people that are actually responsible for the bulk of our climate problems outright own the media, because they're the ones who buy advertising.
Which is a huge part of why you don't hear about a whole lot of these protests or actions in any main stream news and we only hear about zany stuff like vandalizing artwork because it helps make climate protesters look silly or unhinged, which is intentional and not an accident.
posted by loquacious at 12:17 PM on October 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
People are still doing these kinds of things. You're not hearing about it because the protesters either get locked up or mired in protracted and often sealed trials and it just doesn't make the news.
Apparently it's also a really good way to get hit with broad-stroke terrorism charges thanks to the current state of politics and policing, which has very likely put a damper on anyone attempting monkeywrenching actions.
I vaguely know someone who has done banner hangs and blocked transportation infrastructure and they were in and out of court for years getting strung along by the prosecution and courts.
To be honest I don't know what is an effective way to protest climate change or raise awareness and action over it.
It's simply not enough to ask people to use less resources or energy, and by and large most people don't want to because it means personal discomfort and having less. It also means financial loss through sinking stock and investment values and people making the voluntary choice to threaten their later financial security in retirement.
And the companies and people that are actually responsible for the bulk of our climate problems outright own the media, because they're the ones who buy advertising.
Which is a huge part of why you don't hear about a whole lot of these protests or actions in any main stream news and we only hear about zany stuff like vandalizing artwork because it helps make climate protesters look silly or unhinged, which is intentional and not an accident.
posted by loquacious at 12:17 PM on October 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
Apparently it's also a really good way to get hit with broad-stroke terrorism charges thanks to the current state of politics and policing, which has very likely put a damper on anyone attempting monkeywrenching actions.
Well, saying that having to confront the law when doing outlaw climate protests is somehow NOT a price to pay for your vigilante actions is somehow delusional, right?
I guess these protestors are protesting the cause right up until the point where it actually can damage their lives. They're not willing to do the protest actions that will actually result in real criminal charges because.... saving the climate isn't serious enough to warrant dealing with that.
We're sort of facing a situation where we've got a symbolic French Resistance up against the symbolic Occupying Powers. I guess it's best if nobody actually sacrifices themselves (legally, at minimum) for the cause, because the problem isn't really going to sacrifice everyone in the end, right?
posted by hippybear at 12:25 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well, saying that having to confront the law when doing outlaw climate protests is somehow NOT a price to pay for your vigilante actions is somehow delusional, right?
I guess these protestors are protesting the cause right up until the point where it actually can damage their lives. They're not willing to do the protest actions that will actually result in real criminal charges because.... saving the climate isn't serious enough to warrant dealing with that.
We're sort of facing a situation where we've got a symbolic French Resistance up against the symbolic Occupying Powers. I guess it's best if nobody actually sacrifices themselves (legally, at minimum) for the cause, because the problem isn't really going to sacrifice everyone in the end, right?
posted by hippybear at 12:25 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
The main outcome of these protests that I’ve seen is that it make some folks on metafilter who are already extremely motivated by concern over climate change feel good. It’s bizarrely selfish.
posted by Wood at 12:26 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Wood at 12:26 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I just feel like if you don't like what someone else is doing, then go out and do better. Sitting at home sniping on the internet is no better than sitting at home cheering on the internet.
posted by bleep at 12:29 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by bleep at 12:29 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
It feels like it's at the point where no one in their right mind has reached the radicalism necessary to adopt the "every revolutionary is a dead man" ethos needed to do stochastic property destruction-type terrorism in a public way. No one in this thread, for instance, is looking to get locked for years up over a small non-symbolic act that might not disrupt much of anything in the grand scheme of things. It's really easy to go "why is no one doing anything?!", but the answer is evident when looking in the mirror.
posted by Philipschall at 12:31 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Philipschall at 12:31 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Well, saying that having to confront the law when doing outlaw climate protests is somehow NOT a price to pay for your vigilante actions is somehow delusional, right?
I don't think you understand the current state of the laws, how it's being misused and how serious these charges can be. These aren't simple mischief or vandalism charges like people used to get for tree sitting or due course of justice or law.
You're asking people to risk major prison terms in federal supermax prisons in exchange for what are, at best, minor engineering snafus that won't accomplish much to slow down the juggernaut of megacorporations or raise much awareness about the cause.
If you feel this strongly about it I suggest taking up monkey wrenching and seeing how it plays out these days.
Times have changed. Unfortunately they have changed a lot.
posted by loquacious at 12:35 PM on October 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
I don't think you understand the current state of the laws, how it's being misused and how serious these charges can be. These aren't simple mischief or vandalism charges like people used to get for tree sitting or due course of justice or law.
You're asking people to risk major prison terms in federal supermax prisons in exchange for what are, at best, minor engineering snafus that won't accomplish much to slow down the juggernaut of megacorporations or raise much awareness about the cause.
If you feel this strongly about it I suggest taking up monkey wrenching and seeing how it plays out these days.
Times have changed. Unfortunately they have changed a lot.
posted by loquacious at 12:35 PM on October 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
In Kim Stanley Robinson's The Ministry for the Future environmentalists started blowing up private jets with swarms of drones. In the book this led to grounding of most if not all aircraft.
I think that's an extremely optimistic take on what would really happen.
posted by Eddie Mars at 12:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think that's an extremely optimistic take on what would really happen.
posted by Eddie Mars at 12:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Anyway, remember, kids, don't use electronic communications of any form, whether or not you think they're "secure" (they're not) to talk about your plans for antioligarchy terrorism. Maybe the cops are governed by due process (not really) but billionaires definitely are not.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
we only hear about zany stuff like vandalizing artwork because it helps make climate protesters look silly or unhinged, which is intentional and not an accident.
QFT. The VW Autostadt one, perfect example. Instead of helping, they played right into that "unhinged" narrative. I mean, it's easy to criticize from my living room and I'm generally in favor of the soup and the potatoes, but that one was poorly played. If they don't arrest you right away, be prepared to take advantage of that mistake, escalating and making a spectacle until they have to. Instead, the story is they don't even care about their own cause enough to piss themselves.
posted by ctmf at 12:48 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
QFT. The VW Autostadt one, perfect example. Instead of helping, they played right into that "unhinged" narrative. I mean, it's easy to criticize from my living room and I'm generally in favor of the soup and the potatoes, but that one was poorly played. If they don't arrest you right away, be prepared to take advantage of that mistake, escalating and making a spectacle until they have to. Instead, the story is they don't even care about their own cause enough to piss themselves.
posted by ctmf at 12:48 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
without too much collateral damage
Not-crazy idea and soft target, but the optics of all that fuel and lube oil floating in the harbor afterwards would need to be messaged carefully. Intentionally harming the environment you're purportedly saving? You'd have to go pretty hard on the yachts having the oil in the first place being the real problem. It would be difficult. And you'd need inside accomplices to make sure the boat was really deserted, no operations staff.
Unless you're totally in IDGAF, immolating-yourself territory, at which point... it would get attention for sure.
posted by ctmf at 12:55 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Not-crazy idea and soft target, but the optics of all that fuel and lube oil floating in the harbor afterwards would need to be messaged carefully. Intentionally harming the environment you're purportedly saving? You'd have to go pretty hard on the yachts having the oil in the first place being the real problem. It would be difficult. And you'd need inside accomplices to make sure the boat was really deserted, no operations staff.
Unless you're totally in IDGAF, immolating-yourself territory, at which point... it would get attention for sure.
posted by ctmf at 12:55 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sugar & gas tanks at the next NY auto show
How Do You Like My Car, Big Boy?
Unless you're totally in IDGAF, immolating-yourself territory, at which point... it would get attention for sure.
Actually part of the rationale for these protests, if I recall correctly, is that when a person DID self-immolate in public it got virtually no attention whatsoever.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:58 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
How Do You Like My Car, Big Boy?
Unless you're totally in IDGAF, immolating-yourself territory, at which point... it would get attention for sure.
Actually part of the rationale for these protests, if I recall correctly, is that when a person DID self-immolate in public it got virtually no attention whatsoever.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:58 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
If you feel this strongly about it I suggest taking up monkey wrenching and seeing how it plays out these days.
Not all monkeywrench actions are caught or major, often they just create inconveniences. Do enough of those and the cost of business rises. Do enough of that, and business starts to shift away from the dominant paradigm.
Monkeywrenching has never played out well. The Luddites were throwing literal wrenches into weaving looms and they all paid a heavy price to fail at their hopeful revolutions. Our price to pay for our failure to stop carbon will be much higher than any prison sentence. I'll be dead soon, but I'd rather people born later than me not suffer in general.
I won't confess to any specific acts on the open internet, but I do things here and there from time to time. No clue if they have any effect, but if they were happening a lot more from a much more diffuse population, it could change things.
posted by hippybear at 1:09 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Not all monkeywrench actions are caught or major, often they just create inconveniences. Do enough of those and the cost of business rises. Do enough of that, and business starts to shift away from the dominant paradigm.
Monkeywrenching has never played out well. The Luddites were throwing literal wrenches into weaving looms and they all paid a heavy price to fail at their hopeful revolutions. Our price to pay for our failure to stop carbon will be much higher than any prison sentence. I'll be dead soon, but I'd rather people born later than me not suffer in general.
I won't confess to any specific acts on the open internet, but I do things here and there from time to time. No clue if they have any effect, but if they were happening a lot more from a much more diffuse population, it could change things.
posted by hippybear at 1:09 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I.... am sort of at a loss on this one, because while I appreciate the desire to catch media attention... as far as I can tell, the only media attention I see is "look what those irritating idiots are doing." There is literally no discussion of climate change in my feeds when this comes up except insofar as these art vandals--which is how they are mostly being framed--are very incensed about it, because Reasons.
It doesn't feel like a very effective way to do anything tangible about climate change. On a private level, I see a lot of people in my networks doing things like writing up how-to guides for getting involved in local landscape restoration talking about how to circumvent fast fashion norms in order to sell slow-fashion reuse-style consumption for people and setting up buy-nothing groups to help promote reuse. On a more systematic level, I... don't see nearly as much discussion about aspects of climate change and pollution that are byproducts of industrial use, but it's my understanding that this is a massive part of the problem.
My guess is that these protests are trying to achieve that, and they've certainly gotten the "attention-catching" aspect down, but in terms of PR and drumming up resistance I don't think this is an effective way to actually link ire at energy companies to the protest at hand. When I think about effective PR campaigns, I think about images and actions that tell a story, and I don't see the story here except vague, nebulous anger at... our artistic institutions.
If things are going to change, we need to change the law, and that means drumming up public support in favor of protests, and against corporate control of law. It means telling stories and distributing them as widely and simply as we can, with or without the support of media institutions.
I don't know. I keep thinking about one of the fundamental underpinnings of my politics: don't make unnecessary enemies. Target your aggression so it only hits the people you want it to, with minimal splashover to anyone who doesn't sincerely deserve it. This particular thing is almost defined by its splashover: the people being directly targeted are art curators who are very much not directly the people responsible for the problems here.
How do you design flashy shows that tell a story while correctly directing your ire?
posted by sciatrix at 1:20 PM on October 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
It doesn't feel like a very effective way to do anything tangible about climate change. On a private level, I see a lot of people in my networks doing things like writing up how-to guides for getting involved in local landscape restoration talking about how to circumvent fast fashion norms in order to sell slow-fashion reuse-style consumption for people and setting up buy-nothing groups to help promote reuse. On a more systematic level, I... don't see nearly as much discussion about aspects of climate change and pollution that are byproducts of industrial use, but it's my understanding that this is a massive part of the problem.
My guess is that these protests are trying to achieve that, and they've certainly gotten the "attention-catching" aspect down, but in terms of PR and drumming up resistance I don't think this is an effective way to actually link ire at energy companies to the protest at hand. When I think about effective PR campaigns, I think about images and actions that tell a story, and I don't see the story here except vague, nebulous anger at... our artistic institutions.
If things are going to change, we need to change the law, and that means drumming up public support in favor of protests, and against corporate control of law. It means telling stories and distributing them as widely and simply as we can, with or without the support of media institutions.
I don't know. I keep thinking about one of the fundamental underpinnings of my politics: don't make unnecessary enemies. Target your aggression so it only hits the people you want it to, with minimal splashover to anyone who doesn't sincerely deserve it. This particular thing is almost defined by its splashover: the people being directly targeted are art curators who are very much not directly the people responsible for the problems here.
How do you design flashy shows that tell a story while correctly directing your ire?
posted by sciatrix at 1:20 PM on October 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
The climate is changing, you say? Why, I had never heard of this before! Now, thanks to these courageous young people, I shall be looking into it post haste. They have surely brought my attention to the previously obscure and largely ignored issue of the climate and it...changing. The very climate we live in. Well, I never.
changing! who would have thought? Hmff. People should be told.
posted by Naberius at 1:24 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
changing! who would have thought? Hmff. People should be told.
posted by Naberius at 1:24 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Oh god, this is literally gonna be a repeat of the last thread
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
I wonder what the logic is in getting angry because the thing designed to get your attention got your attention.
I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the throwing food at art protests were designed to alienate people from the stop-climate-change-movement and to bring the stop-climate-change-movement into disrepute.
For some reason this reminds me of my Dad saying "you kids want to be different but wind up looking all the same." It's not a false flag for the squares.
I think this was a smart and frankly innovative action by what look to be teenagers but are probable a bit older. "Oh but there's been no legislation and the climate is still changing...GOTCHA"
posted by rhizome at 1:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the throwing food at art protests were designed to alienate people from the stop-climate-change-movement and to bring the stop-climate-change-movement into disrepute.
For some reason this reminds me of my Dad saying "you kids want to be different but wind up looking all the same." It's not a false flag for the squares.
I think this was a smart and frankly innovative action by what look to be teenagers but are probable a bit older. "Oh but there's been no legislation and the climate is still changing...GOTCHA"
posted by rhizome at 1:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Blockade pipeline construction, get snipers to take you out, and no media attention.
Throw soup on art (not actually on the art) and the entire planet thinks you're an idiot.
[ "guess I'll die" shrug ]
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:43 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Throw soup on art (not actually on the art) and the entire planet thinks you're an idiot.
[ "guess I'll die" shrug ]
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:43 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I mean, it can be legitimately argued that regardless of how it happened, the shattering of the Nord Stream I and II pipelines has done more to stop further consumption of carbon in a major way by an entire continent than nearly any other action taken in the world thus far.
posted by hippybear at 1:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
This point has been made before, but I feel like it bears restating again and again: Everything nice has already been tried. And is still being tried! There is no shortage of nice. People are trying to get the message out in a gentle way. They are communicating their concerns, their stories, their hopes and fears.
It's still not working, unless you really dilute down the meaning of "work." The task of raising climate consciousness is on such a longer time-scale than the rapidly-accruing effects of climate change. People are dying right now, losing their homes--I don't have to repeat all that, we all know it, nobody disagrees with that part.
Getting all the governments together in a big room has not worked. The last two diplomats on earth will be nailing down an agreement for a memorandum of understanding towards a framework of how to talk about climate change, long after the UN building is just another jagged monument above a broad swath of desert. Green capitalism has not worked. Carbon offsets turned out to be, in some cases, a great scam. Science has not come through with any great innovation to suck the carbon from the air. And on an individual level, people don't get much choice in how to get from one place to another, or how to heat their homes and food.
We know. We all know. The problem is not being solved. Those of us who bear the greatest guilt, the greatest responsibility, are seeing some of the fewest effects, even now, with wildfires, mudslides, hurricanes, we're still doing better than countries whose infrastructure is wracked and destroyed. The long arc of justice is a downward curve into chaos.
If this is true--if our basic sense of cause and effect are broken, because nothing we can do can effect change on any time-scale that matters--then what do we have left but getting attention, in any way possible? Some of us are going to keep being nice, some of us are going to throw food, some of us are going to blow shit up, and it is unlikely that any one of us will ever, ever, be able to point to our actions and say, see, I have proof that MY way of protesting made a difference. That's not how history works, it's not how protest works.
And if I'm wrong, then please, someone send me a manifesto, a powerpoint, one weird trick that saves the world, because I'm all ears. But until then I'll look at these kids with their food and their superglue and say, at least they're trying, and they're not doing any worse than the rest of us.
posted by mittens at 1:49 PM on October 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
It's still not working, unless you really dilute down the meaning of "work." The task of raising climate consciousness is on such a longer time-scale than the rapidly-accruing effects of climate change. People are dying right now, losing their homes--I don't have to repeat all that, we all know it, nobody disagrees with that part.
Getting all the governments together in a big room has not worked. The last two diplomats on earth will be nailing down an agreement for a memorandum of understanding towards a framework of how to talk about climate change, long after the UN building is just another jagged monument above a broad swath of desert. Green capitalism has not worked. Carbon offsets turned out to be, in some cases, a great scam. Science has not come through with any great innovation to suck the carbon from the air. And on an individual level, people don't get much choice in how to get from one place to another, or how to heat their homes and food.
We know. We all know. The problem is not being solved. Those of us who bear the greatest guilt, the greatest responsibility, are seeing some of the fewest effects, even now, with wildfires, mudslides, hurricanes, we're still doing better than countries whose infrastructure is wracked and destroyed. The long arc of justice is a downward curve into chaos.
If this is true--if our basic sense of cause and effect are broken, because nothing we can do can effect change on any time-scale that matters--then what do we have left but getting attention, in any way possible? Some of us are going to keep being nice, some of us are going to throw food, some of us are going to blow shit up, and it is unlikely that any one of us will ever, ever, be able to point to our actions and say, see, I have proof that MY way of protesting made a difference. That's not how history works, it's not how protest works.
And if I'm wrong, then please, someone send me a manifesto, a powerpoint, one weird trick that saves the world, because I'm all ears. But until then I'll look at these kids with their food and their superglue and say, at least they're trying, and they're not doing any worse than the rest of us.
posted by mittens at 1:49 PM on October 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
To be honest I don't know what is an effective way to protest climate change or raise awareness and action over it.
Yeah, me neither, but "I threw food on a painting to protest climate change!" are not exactly two great tastes that go together, make sense, and translate your message easily either. Those are very disparate things and that's what annoys me about this one.
But mittens has some very good points. I don't know what the hell to do either and I'm not sure if throwing food or blowing shit up or anything does...anything. And as they pointed out, people do know, and it's not going to be solved by those who have the power to work on solving it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:01 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, me neither, but "I threw food on a painting to protest climate change!" are not exactly two great tastes that go together, make sense, and translate your message easily either. Those are very disparate things and that's what annoys me about this one.
But mittens has some very good points. I don't know what the hell to do either and I'm not sure if throwing food or blowing shit up or anything does...anything. And as they pointed out, people do know, and it's not going to be solved by those who have the power to work on solving it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:01 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
it's not going to be solved by those who have the power to work on solving it.
I wonder how much of the entire sense of despair about climate change is because most of the world wants action to be taken and THOSE WHO HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE ACTION WON'T DO IT.
Now, a lot of them not doing it involves money and corporation business decisions. But also, truly changing our society away from carbon is going to involve serious pain. Waiting until new tech can replace the old isn't working. We have to cut off old tech now, and do without while we create new tech. But the powers that be don't want ANY pain during this transition at all.
So the transition will be forced, by Mother Nature, and will be much more horrible than if we'd just volunteered for some lesser pain.
posted by hippybear at 2:08 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wonder how much of the entire sense of despair about climate change is because most of the world wants action to be taken and THOSE WHO HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE ACTION WON'T DO IT.
Now, a lot of them not doing it involves money and corporation business decisions. But also, truly changing our society away from carbon is going to involve serious pain. Waiting until new tech can replace the old isn't working. We have to cut off old tech now, and do without while we create new tech. But the powers that be don't want ANY pain during this transition at all.
So the transition will be forced, by Mother Nature, and will be much more horrible than if we'd just volunteered for some lesser pain.
posted by hippybear at 2:08 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wonder how much of the entire sense of despair about climate change is because most of the world wants action to be taken and THOSE WHO HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE ACTION WON'T DO IT.
Yes. Exactly. For climate change and a billion other things.
This kind of thing is why I scorn leaders and leadership in general. I'm supposed to bow down and kiss their royal booties and hand them all the money, and for WHAT are they giving us in return?
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:32 PM on October 25, 2022
Yes. Exactly. For climate change and a billion other things.
This kind of thing is why I scorn leaders and leadership in general. I'm supposed to bow down and kiss their royal booties and hand them all the money, and for WHAT are they giving us in return?
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:32 PM on October 25, 2022
"you should feel ashamed of yourself for throwing that food around instead of eating it - there are children starving in the world who would love to eat that food"
posted by pyramid termite at 2:34 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by pyramid termite at 2:34 PM on October 25, 2022
Oh god, this is literally gonna be a repeat of the last thread
Well, yeah. This is basically the exact same thing, so the discussion is going to be exactly the same. Isn't fruitlessly discussing the same things over and over again in the same way the point of the Internet?
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Well, yeah. This is basically the exact same thing, so the discussion is going to be exactly the same. Isn't fruitlessly discussing the same things over and over again in the same way the point of the Internet?
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
What sort of fruit would you like this discussion to yield? I'm up for the whole monkeywrenching thing, but we'd need to find a more private place to talk about that.
posted by hippybear at 2:40 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 2:40 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't know, what's the point of discussing anything online? I'm not rich or in a position to make a real change (or have any effect at all) on the climate or these protesters, and I'm guessing no one commenting here is either. These groups are going to do what they do no matter how the discussion on MetaFiler goes, and the public will react how it reacts without consulting us. The discussion is the fruit, which is why it's strange to be complaining about it.
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Buy a large pack of chewing gum and every day chew a piece and stop by a gas station and put it across the credit card slot of a gas pump.
No, don't do that. That's a bad thing to do. It inconveniences people and makes companies spend money on repairs. And it's probably illegal. So don't do that.
posted by hippybear at 2:49 PM on October 25, 2022
No, don't do that. That's a bad thing to do. It inconveniences people and makes companies spend money on repairs. And it's probably illegal. So don't do that.
posted by hippybear at 2:49 PM on October 25, 2022
that, and they can get your DNA from the chewing gum
posted by pyramid termite at 2:52 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by pyramid termite at 2:52 PM on October 25, 2022
if you chew superglue your teeth get stuck together
posted by pyramid termite at 2:55 PM on October 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 2:55 PM on October 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
I'm really not advocating for vandalism of gas stations, I'm just pointing out that monkeywrench operations can take a lot of forms, and they're all designed to increase friction into the carbon delivery system, whether it's early or late in the supply chain. You can blockade a pipeline with human bodies. You can tie yourself to a tree. You can find that section of pipeline that's never patrolled.
Introduce enough friction and the populace shifts (can't get gas, let's go electric) and companies start to shift (these things are always broken, these others remain intact).
The whole thing COULD be handled by citizenry being imaginative and creating friction at any point they can imagine to make carbon delivery difficult from source to buyer, and that COULD shift the market.
But that requires a lot of community buy-in and a lot of guerrilla tactics being accepted by the general populace as worthwhile in the struggle. I guess it's a bit (truly bad analogy) like the suicide bomber being acceptable and even celebrated in the Jihad/Islamic State culture. That level of extremism can be culturally acceptable.
How much do we need to build up societal tolerance for extremist actions about climate before those who have the power will truly let the shift happen or even encourage it to happen? How far do we have to go? We already have people camping out for months to form human blockades, people gluing themselves to museum walls so they can't be quickly removed and can state their case... people setting themselves on fire....
Protests aren't working. Will sabotage work? Can we do that on a scale that matters to the corporations who only care about profits and not the planet or people?
WHAT HAS TO BE DONE TO FORCE THE CHANGE?
Because this whole "we'll keep inventing things and make a new way" is going to kill us while we're waiting for the new inventions.
posted by hippybear at 3:03 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Introduce enough friction and the populace shifts (can't get gas, let's go electric) and companies start to shift (these things are always broken, these others remain intact).
The whole thing COULD be handled by citizenry being imaginative and creating friction at any point they can imagine to make carbon delivery difficult from source to buyer, and that COULD shift the market.
But that requires a lot of community buy-in and a lot of guerrilla tactics being accepted by the general populace as worthwhile in the struggle. I guess it's a bit (truly bad analogy) like the suicide bomber being acceptable and even celebrated in the Jihad/Islamic State culture. That level of extremism can be culturally acceptable.
How much do we need to build up societal tolerance for extremist actions about climate before those who have the power will truly let the shift happen or even encourage it to happen? How far do we have to go? We already have people camping out for months to form human blockades, people gluing themselves to museum walls so they can't be quickly removed and can state their case... people setting themselves on fire....
Protests aren't working. Will sabotage work? Can we do that on a scale that matters to the corporations who only care about profits and not the planet or people?
WHAT HAS TO BE DONE TO FORCE THE CHANGE?
Because this whole "we'll keep inventing things and make a new way" is going to kill us while we're waiting for the new inventions.
posted by hippybear at 3:03 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Man, I would not take a Federal wrap for gluing credit card machines. Street cred doesn't do confusion well.
posted by clavdivs at 3:10 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 3:10 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I support road blocking, bridge blocking protests, but it depends on police approach and legal considerations. Protesters should go in with open eyes to all possible consequences, and the movement should be well organized with adequate legal support.
That said, here in Vancouver, BC there have been several bridge blocking protests for protection of old growth forests and climate emergency that I would consider successful. I went to one spontaneously. There was a die-in of sorts at a major intersection (Cambie and Broadway for those familiar) with megaphones explaining to the bustling commuters at the train station various concerning facts about climate change.
Then we walked onto the Cambie Bridge and maybe 70 people set up camp for a while. It probably lasted 5-6 hours. There were various movement organizing and connection-building activities going on, and people met people. It spanned multiple movements and clusters of activists, and included substantial Indigenous representation.
They were associated with the group living in trees near Fairy Creek to block old growth logging at the time, and those with experience of that told their stories and encouraged others to join. They decided who would be arrested. The police showed up on schedule to disperse people and arrest the smaller group of less than 10 that chose to stay, in an orderly and peaceful fashion.
They made it fun and had a variety of activities.
Thing is, it means everyone who would otherwise have travelled on the bridge had to google "why is the bridge closed" and learn at least something about what was going on.
It helps that it was structured around a concrete, sympathetic and actionable political issue.
They seem to be happening every few months.
However, without the effective movement organizing, clear message, legal support, and some predictability concerning the police response, it would not be nearly as successful.
posted by lookoutbelow at 3:28 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
That said, here in Vancouver, BC there have been several bridge blocking protests for protection of old growth forests and climate emergency that I would consider successful. I went to one spontaneously. There was a die-in of sorts at a major intersection (Cambie and Broadway for those familiar) with megaphones explaining to the bustling commuters at the train station various concerning facts about climate change.
Then we walked onto the Cambie Bridge and maybe 70 people set up camp for a while. It probably lasted 5-6 hours. There were various movement organizing and connection-building activities going on, and people met people. It spanned multiple movements and clusters of activists, and included substantial Indigenous representation.
They were associated with the group living in trees near Fairy Creek to block old growth logging at the time, and those with experience of that told their stories and encouraged others to join. They decided who would be arrested. The police showed up on schedule to disperse people and arrest the smaller group of less than 10 that chose to stay, in an orderly and peaceful fashion.
They made it fun and had a variety of activities.
Thing is, it means everyone who would otherwise have travelled on the bridge had to google "why is the bridge closed" and learn at least something about what was going on.
It helps that it was structured around a concrete, sympathetic and actionable political issue.
They seem to be happening every few months.
However, without the effective movement organizing, clear message, legal support, and some predictability concerning the police response, it would not be nearly as successful.
posted by lookoutbelow at 3:28 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Are there resources online that help one be as effective and well-planned as that protest, a casebook/primer for other protests?
posted by hippybear at 3:34 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 3:34 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think of Jack Handey:
I think a new, different kind of bowling should be "carpet bowling." It's just like regular bowling, only the lanes are carpet instead of wood. I don't know why we should do this, but my God, we've got to try something!
Lots of people in this thread are saying: Maybe throwing food on paintings isn't effective, but my God, we've got to try something!
I think monkeywrench operations and street theater and all charismatic protests are dumb fucking wastes of time. And if they're not, prove it. The times when they have done anything have been rare and have been accompanied by massive amounts of parallel legislative work and ground-level organizing.
So do the legislative work, do the lobbying (Citizens Climate Lobby is a good one), show up to hearings at every adjudicative body at the county and state level; let candidates for public office know you will primary them out of existence if they cross the red line on environmental issues. Do the actual work that grinds away at the machine and spare us all this self-indulgent shit.
posted by argybarg at 3:36 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think a new, different kind of bowling should be "carpet bowling." It's just like regular bowling, only the lanes are carpet instead of wood. I don't know why we should do this, but my God, we've got to try something!
Lots of people in this thread are saying: Maybe throwing food on paintings isn't effective, but my God, we've got to try something!
I think monkeywrench operations and street theater and all charismatic protests are dumb fucking wastes of time. And if they're not, prove it. The times when they have done anything have been rare and have been accompanied by massive amounts of parallel legislative work and ground-level organizing.
So do the legislative work, do the lobbying (Citizens Climate Lobby is a good one), show up to hearings at every adjudicative body at the county and state level; let candidates for public office know you will primary them out of existence if they cross the red line on environmental issues. Do the actual work that grinds away at the machine and spare us all this self-indulgent shit.
posted by argybarg at 3:36 PM on October 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
The 2-6 year election cycle is definitely something the climate is tuned into and will only advance during times right before elections. Nothing bad could happen while you're waiting for that Senator to come up for a vote again in 2026.
posted by hippybear at 3:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 3:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
So do the legislative work, do the lobbying (Citizens Climate Lobby is a good one), show up to hearings at every adjudicative body at the county and state level; let candidates for public office know you will primary them out of existence if they cross the red line on environmental issues. Do the actual work that grinds away at the machine and spare us all this self-indulgent shit.
I'm a public interest lawyer, so by profession I am invested in trying to fix things within the system, but...come on, man. If it was this simple, it would already have happened.
Also, some people have the personality and skills to write briefs; some have the nerve and charisma and imagination (and ability to endure arrest without significant career repercussions) for public actions. There's room for everybody to make a contribution.
posted by praemunire at 3:40 PM on October 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
I'm a public interest lawyer, so by profession I am invested in trying to fix things within the system, but...come on, man. If it was this simple, it would already have happened.
Also, some people have the personality and skills to write briefs; some have the nerve and charisma and imagination (and ability to endure arrest without significant career repercussions) for public actions. There's room for everybody to make a contribution.
posted by praemunire at 3:40 PM on October 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
If the people with the power (and money) to affect change in how we are living to slow down and maybe stop climate change, do not want to do anything about it because doing so might remove them from power (and take away their money) then we have to find a way to remove these people from power. Throwing pies at pictures in museums affects nothing about the positions of power. Pissing off the regular folks at the bottom of the pyramid of power just pisses them off. Until they get pissed off at the power structure itself and there is a way for them to cause change in that structure then maybe. But I can’t think of any popular movement that changed things for the better on any scale approaching what needs to be changed now. Such as bring down the capitalist system? Until there are people with power to actually do something needed to be done, we are just going to stumble along as humans have stumbled along for thousands of years, growing in our ability to fuck up our existence. Pessimistic? Yes. If anyone knows of an example where effective change that led to positive effects on a large scale please let me know. Human survival is not a game. And I have heard people here on the blue say that maybe human survival ain’t worth it.
posted by njohnson23 at 4:17 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by njohnson23 at 4:17 PM on October 25, 2022
some have the nerve and charisma and imagination (and ability to endure arrest without significant career repercussions) for public actions.
I agree that some people are suited for public actions, but that doesn't prove that public actions do anything. I'm not convinced that they do.
posted by argybarg at 4:52 PM on October 25, 2022
I agree that some people are suited for public actions, but that doesn't prove that public actions do anything. I'm not convinced that they do.
posted by argybarg at 4:52 PM on October 25, 2022
MetaFilter: bring down the capitalist system?
posted by hippybear at 4:53 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:53 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
This article says that "[t]he groups behind the action include Protect the Planet, Save Old Growth, Extinction Rebellion Vancouver and Climate Convergence", hippybear – I bet those involved would be happy to discuss their organizing tactics with others. I think Save Old Growth started this tactic. It appears they also have online meetings.
The Tyee often has good coverage of movements such as these, this article from 2020 follows some of the same or similar activists.
Another page on the Save Old Growth mentions it is part of something called the A22 Network for Civil Disobedience, described elsewhere as "a ten-country coalition where each member has a distinct policy demand from their respective governments" which when Googled appears to have some useful information.
Just based on my one attendance, it's apparent that success in this regard requires a whole network of people providing different kinds of support. It's so easy for left wing groups to be split up. The clear and plausible policy demand seems especially crucial to me.
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:20 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
The Tyee often has good coverage of movements such as these, this article from 2020 follows some of the same or similar activists.
Another page on the Save Old Growth mentions it is part of something called the A22 Network for Civil Disobedience, described elsewhere as "a ten-country coalition where each member has a distinct policy demand from their respective governments" which when Googled appears to have some useful information.
Just based on my one attendance, it's apparent that success in this regard requires a whole network of people providing different kinds of support. It's so easy for left wing groups to be split up. The clear and plausible policy demand seems especially crucial to me.
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:20 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Protests like this feel inherently wrong to me because art is why we want to preserve humanity. To deface artwork is then to deface our reasons to continue existing. And if we don't have a reason to continue existing, who cares that the world is burning?
posted by wandering zinnia at 5:37 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by wandering zinnia at 5:37 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
And maybe that's part of it, the thoughtful part. We won't have any art. Because there won't be any of us. The climate will wipe us out and all of it will be gone.
I don't have a lot of faith most people can engage with this idea meaningfully enough to change anything. But it resonates with me personally.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't have a lot of faith most people can engage with this idea meaningfully enough to change anything. But it resonates with me personally.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Quite a few people have been killed or seriously injured in traffic blocking protests. It's easier to just use the deadly weapon you already have (your car).
True, dis_integration . I was thinking of how many guns Americans have, and how many appear in vehicles. Hence my surprise at zero shootings.
Now, your linked article was almost entirely about car rammings, but there's this interesting, sole exception about gunfire:
"Three protesters were killed when vehicles hit them, while a fourth died in Austin after an Army sergeant drove into a demonstration and then shot a protester who his lawyer said aimed a gun at his car. The sergeant may have acted in self-defense, but only after driving into a crowd."
posted by doctornemo at 5:48 PM on October 25, 2022
True, dis_integration . I was thinking of how many guns Americans have, and how many appear in vehicles. Hence my surprise at zero shootings.
Now, your linked article was almost entirely about car rammings, but there's this interesting, sole exception about gunfire:
"Three protesters were killed when vehicles hit them, while a fourth died in Austin after an Army sergeant drove into a demonstration and then shot a protester who his lawyer said aimed a gun at his car. The sergeant may have acted in self-defense, but only after driving into a crowd."
posted by doctornemo at 5:48 PM on October 25, 2022
it can be legitimately argued that regardless of how it happened, the shattering of the Nord Stream I and II pipelines has done more to stop further consumption of carbon in a major way by an entire continent than nearly any other action taken in the world thus far.
Again I think of Malm's little book: How To Destroy a Pipeline.
posted by doctornemo at 5:50 PM on October 25, 2022
Again I think of Malm's little book: How To Destroy a Pipeline.
posted by doctornemo at 5:50 PM on October 25, 2022
LA Review Of Books on Andreas Malm's How To Blow Up A Pipeline. Cogent to this discussion.
posted by hippybear at 5:58 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by hippybear at 5:58 PM on October 25, 2022
The first time I heard about it I was interested, and then I found out about the glass protection. After that I just question if this one has glass or not. I guess a lot do have glass! The problem, at least in how I react to these, is that I think about climate protesters and not climate change. I'm never making the step to the real issue. I realize this is a hard problem, and I have no idea what to do. I'm just not really convinced this is the right idea.
posted by joelr at 6:28 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by joelr at 6:28 PM on October 25, 2022
Some "highlights" of recent museum news:
Hasso Plattner Has Temporarily Closed His Museum After Climate Activists Threw Mashed Potatoes.
Just Stop Oil protesters cover King Charles III waxwork with chocolate cake at Madame Tussauds.
Just Stop Oil activist explains why it's right to attack art.
Meanwhile, I think this type museum protest makes a lot more sense. I will take banners any day over the throwing/smearing of soup and potatoes: Iranian Artists Stage Anonymous Protest at the Guggenheim Museum. The group draped red banners across four floors in support of the protests gathering momentum in Iran. While the banners made their way down the museum's rotunda, onlookers began to cheer and clap, as seen in various videos posted to social media.
posted by gudrun at 6:38 PM on October 25, 2022
Hasso Plattner Has Temporarily Closed His Museum After Climate Activists Threw Mashed Potatoes.
Just Stop Oil protesters cover King Charles III waxwork with chocolate cake at Madame Tussauds.
Just Stop Oil activist explains why it's right to attack art.
Meanwhile, I think this type museum protest makes a lot more sense. I will take banners any day over the throwing/smearing of soup and potatoes: Iranian Artists Stage Anonymous Protest at the Guggenheim Museum. The group draped red banners across four floors in support of the protests gathering momentum in Iran. While the banners made their way down the museum's rotunda, onlookers began to cheer and clap, as seen in various videos posted to social media.
posted by gudrun at 6:38 PM on October 25, 2022
I can't believe I'm saying this — because if I'd have made a prediction beforehand I'd have expected to be on the other side of it — but especially given the colossal threat that anthropegenic global warming represents, all this tut-tutting about these protests is about as milktoast liberal centrism as could be imagined.
It's very cringe, as the kids say.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
It's very cringe, as the kids say.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
From the euronews link above:
Since you’re attacking art, do you consider culture to be meaningless at this point in time?
There’s still a place for culture. Art has a lot of power, and all the great artists in the past were radical and forward thinking, and yet that’s not being addressed in the same way in the climate crisis. There are still people who are way more outraged about that action (the soup poured on Van Gogh, which was protected by a glass screen) than the 33 million people in Pakistan being displaced by floods. I’m from Scotland – that’s six times the population of my entire country who have lost their homes and their livelihoods. It’s really sad, yet more people are outraged about throwing soup at glass.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:50 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Since you’re attacking art, do you consider culture to be meaningless at this point in time?
There’s still a place for culture. Art has a lot of power, and all the great artists in the past were radical and forward thinking, and yet that’s not being addressed in the same way in the climate crisis. There are still people who are way more outraged about that action (the soup poured on Van Gogh, which was protected by a glass screen) than the 33 million people in Pakistan being displaced by floods. I’m from Scotland – that’s six times the population of my entire country who have lost their homes and their livelihoods. It’s really sad, yet more people are outraged about throwing soup at glass.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:50 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
It’s really sad, yet more people are outraged about throwing soup at glass. Yes, and your takeaway should be: this type of protest is not effective if more people object to the form that it is taking rather than join you in it, so maybe a rethink of these tactics might be in order.
posted by gudrun at 7:06 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by gudrun at 7:06 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Their takeaway should be whatever they want. The scolding is really noisy compared to trying to engage with any of their actual points. I'm pretty exhausted at this point. Time to rest.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:10 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:10 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
this type of protest is not effective if more people object to the form that it is taking rather than join you in it, so maybe a rethink of these tactics might be in order.
I said it in the last thread, and I'll say it again: the most effective form of theatrical protest in my lifetime was the attack on 9/11. Yes it was terrorism, and yes it was horrible, but those cats did more to fuck up American democracy than any group since, what, the Civil War?
Your protest doesn't have to make friends to be effective.
posted by nushustu at 7:24 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I said it in the last thread, and I'll say it again: the most effective form of theatrical protest in my lifetime was the attack on 9/11. Yes it was terrorism, and yes it was horrible, but those cats did more to fuck up American democracy than any group since, what, the Civil War?
Your protest doesn't have to make friends to be effective.
posted by nushustu at 7:24 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
howd that work out for the world.
posted by clavdivs at 7:33 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 7:33 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Really really poorly. But I suspect there are some people who think it turned out worse for the US than elsewhere.
posted by nushustu at 9:21 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by nushustu at 9:21 PM on October 25, 2022
I agree that some people are suited for public actions, but that doesn't prove that public actions do anything. I'm not convinced that they do.
This is a staggeringly ahistorical statement.
Two decades of neoliberal writers arguing that science says we should just do whatever comes easiest and that any time we try to change anything it will inevitably have a result opposite the one intended have really had an effect, I guess. I understand why people were profoundly disturbed by the two self-immolators, I really do, but in these instances, where no meaningful harm was done to anyone or anything, you'd think we could let activists try stuff.
posted by praemunire at 9:34 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
This is a staggeringly ahistorical statement.
Two decades of neoliberal writers arguing that science says we should just do whatever comes easiest and that any time we try to change anything it will inevitably have a result opposite the one intended have really had an effect, I guess. I understand why people were profoundly disturbed by the two self-immolators, I really do, but in these instances, where no meaningful harm was done to anyone or anything, you'd think we could let activists try stuff.
posted by praemunire at 9:34 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Recently, in Australia, they increased the fine for blocking a road leading to a coal seam gas facility from $550 to $5500. At the same time (in the same bill?) they decreased the fine for poisoning waterways while mining for coal seam gas from over $1m, to $5000. It is literally cheaper for a company to pollute waterways now, than it is for a person to block a facility from polluting waterways. Fuck. That. Shit.
posted by Thella at 10:53 PM on October 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Thella at 10:53 PM on October 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
Annoys me they don't even damage or destroy the original artwork. At least if they did that, they'd be making room for different artwork to be displayed and I like a switch-up.
Really though, find it hard to care about any property being damaged given the circumstances we live in, where everything is marked to be destroyed anyway.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:26 AM on October 26, 2022
Really though, find it hard to care about any property being damaged given the circumstances we live in, where everything is marked to be destroyed anyway.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:26 AM on October 26, 2022
I understand why people were profoundly disturbed by the two self-immolators
A difficult topic to discuss. Thích Quảng Đức.. This act and others were viewed as shocking and politically charged. The act further divided a country and ultimately political change and then to one of the worst conflicts in the latter half of the 20th century.
posted by clavdivs at 12:10 PM on October 26, 2022
A difficult topic to discuss. Thích Quảng Đức.. This act and others were viewed as shocking and politically charged. The act further divided a country and ultimately political change and then to one of the worst conflicts in the latter half of the 20th century.
posted by clavdivs at 12:10 PM on October 26, 2022
We had a lengthy discussion about it in connection with one of the self-immolators...all I'm trying to say here is that the current act in itself is not horrific and there's no need to react to it as if someone had destroyed something or someone irreplaceable.
posted by praemunire at 12:40 PM on October 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 12:40 PM on October 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I wonder if they've considered throwing motor oil or similar, which would at least be on topic?
posted by Marticus at 7:31 PM on October 26, 2022
posted by Marticus at 7:31 PM on October 26, 2022
i will avenge u mr van gogh
(Would've linked to the original, nut neither Twitter nor Instagram will let me in without joining.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:36 PM on October 26, 2022
(Would've linked to the original, nut neither Twitter nor Instagram will let me in without joining.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:36 PM on October 26, 2022
And now Vermeer, with a protestor trying to glue his head onto the painting.
posted by mittens at 10:38 AM on October 27, 2022
posted by mittens at 10:38 AM on October 27, 2022
I'm agnostic on all this as a climate change protest technique, but I would like to mention mention that I 100% support anyone throwing chocolate cake at a King Charles III waxwork. This feels like a valuable public service. I don't even care why you're doing it. The world is not an easy place right now. We have to take joy where we can. And this just made me chuckle. Carry on, comrades.
posted by thivaia at 7:57 AM on October 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 7:57 AM on October 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
....yeah, the King Charles made me laugh, gotta admit it.
Washington Post: More activists are gluing themselves to art. Their tactics aren’t new.
There’s a long history of such protests in museums — going back to an angry feminist and a hatchet
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:06 AM on October 28, 2022
Washington Post: More activists are gluing themselves to art. Their tactics aren’t new.
There’s a long history of such protests in museums — going back to an angry feminist and a hatchet
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:06 AM on October 28, 2022
Look, if you’re going to reference Mary Richardson‘s attack on the Rokeby Venus, you probably should remind people that she became a Fascist afterwards.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:05 PM on October 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:05 PM on October 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Gluing one's head to a painting seems suboptimal.
(I called it stupid in an earlier post but the mods apparently felt that was problematic)
posted by Galvanic at 3:16 PM on October 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
(I called it stupid in an earlier post but the mods apparently felt that was problematic)
posted by Galvanic at 3:16 PM on October 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Atlantic: The Climate Art Vandals are Embarrassing.
In the experiments described above (and in almost all of the others cited in his blog post), the “radical” activists directed their aggressive and even violent tactics toward the group causing their grievance. The animal-rights radicals targeted meat and leather producers, for instance, not elementary schools. The Black activists went on a ticketing strike against police departments, not the IRS. And the radical climate activists in another experiment advocated for violence and vandalism against fossil-fuel companies, as opposed to impressionist painters, museum curators, or members of the art-viewing public. (Even before the mashed-potatoes-on-Monet incident, Ozden wrote a follow-up post recognizing that the first protest may have lacked an “action logic”—a harmony of tactics and target that would help onlookers understand its nature and purpose. “I’m quite unsure if it was overall good or bad for the climate movement,” he wrote.)posted by jenfullmoon at 4:40 PM on October 28, 2022
This lack of connective logic has irked many otherwise sympathetic climate advocates. “Regardless of whether you think protests like this are effective or not—and as a climate scientist, I’ve spent 30 years on this issue, so my sympathies are with the protesters, of course—I find it weird to target museums and nonprofits that help all of us,” Jonathan Foley, the executive director of the climate nonprofit Project Drawdown, told me. Foley is an influential environmental scientist who has studied the planet’s ecological boundaries and deforestation, but he also knows something about museums: From 2014 to 2018, he led the California Academy of Sciences, in San Francisco, one of the largest science museums in the world. And the protests worry him.
It’s true that the targeted paintings were protected by glass panes—but those panes aren’t designed to protect against seeping liquids (or whatever mashed potatoes are), Foley said. They keep out ultraviolet light and dust. Nor are museum-security staff prepared for the challenge of patting down every potential visitor for wayward appetizers, which is what insurance companies will now likely demand, he said. Furthermore, because staging protests at art museums has now happened a few times, he said, every art museum could see its insurance and security costs increase by hundreds of thousands of dollars. Museums may also put paintings—and even sculptures—behind the kind of boxlike cases that today protect only a few world-famous works, such as the Mona Lisa.
“You’re hurting organizations that are often in debt, that are often struggling financially,” he said. And he rejected the connection that some academics have made between the art world and the wealth inequality that fuels climate change: “People say, ‘It’s fancy art for billionaires.’ But no, the billionaires keep their art in their homes, and it’s insured. You’re not hurting them by doing this. You’re hurting the public.” Climate activists and museum workers are “on the same team,” he insisted: They’re both trying to preserve a priceless intergenerational gift for the public. “I don’t understand, in the name of preserving something we cherish, damaging something we also cherish.”
Embarrassing? That makes me so fucking mad I cannot even see straight.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:21 PM on October 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:21 PM on October 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also. I love museums but let's not pretend they don't have massive problems with chain of custody, institutional power, etc. How was the public harmed, as well? How?
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:24 PM on October 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:24 PM on October 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ah yes, those nattering nabobs of the avant garde resistance, The Atlantic Monthly.
Washington Post: More activists are gluing themselves to art. Their tactics aren’t new.
Have they ever leveled this dismissal at rich people clamoring for tax cuts or heck, Republican jackboots?
posted by rhizome at 8:55 PM on October 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Washington Post: More activists are gluing themselves to art. Their tactics aren’t new.
Have they ever leveled this dismissal at rich people clamoring for tax cuts or heck, Republican jackboots?
posted by rhizome at 8:55 PM on October 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
The nice thing about gluing your head to a painting is that it's a very difficult kind of threat vector to plan against. I think these early victories will go a long way to inspirng more subversive activities like this - we can only hope.
posted by some loser at 2:50 AM on October 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by some loser at 2:50 AM on October 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
How was the public harmed, as well? How?
Museums are going to step up security as a result, with the likely result that their art will become more difficult for the public to access or see. That's how.
posted by Galvanic at 8:06 AM on October 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Museums are going to step up security as a result, with the likely result that their art will become more difficult for the public to access or see. That's how.
posted by Galvanic at 8:06 AM on October 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Museums already only display around 1% of their collections, and most have hefty entrance fees so...not much of a concern here. These large institutions can afford more security and if they pass those costs to the public, instead of their wealthy donors, that's reprehensible of them. Again, I could go on about the problems of museums.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:11 AM on October 30, 2022
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:11 AM on October 30, 2022
Museums already only display around 1% of their collections, and most have hefty entrance fees
And you want them to make both of those things worse? It may be reprehensible of them, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.
The institutions that are really going to be affected by it are the ones that don't have the large museum resources -- including those representing marginalized communities & lost histories and voices. That'll harm the public as well.
posted by Galvanic at 10:54 AM on October 30, 2022
And you want them to make both of those things worse? It may be reprehensible of them, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.
The institutions that are really going to be affected by it are the ones that don't have the large museum resources -- including those representing marginalized communities & lost histories and voices. That'll harm the public as well.
posted by Galvanic at 10:54 AM on October 30, 2022
When the protesters target a small museum, I guess then it will be a concern. Shrug.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:34 AM on October 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:34 AM on October 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
When the protesters target a small museum, I guess then it will be a concern. Shrug.
You think small museums are going to wait until they’re targeted to take action? How…optimistic.
posted by Galvanic at 1:50 PM on October 30, 2022
You think small museums are going to wait until they’re targeted to take action? How…optimistic.
posted by Galvanic at 1:50 PM on October 30, 2022
Museums are going to step up security as a result, with the likely result that their art will become more difficult for the public to access or see. That's how.
Your slippery slope argument is not inevitable. It is not even plausible.
You think small museums are going to wait until they’re targeted to take action? How…optimistic.
Yeah nah. Public access to museums will be limited by the demands on facilities by climate refugees long before some mash makes the doors close.
Have you been paying attention? Museums and artwork are not the point. Last year it was gluing to the road or to glass doors of posh shops or something. Soon it will be another focus.
The point is to say: we are going to keep annoying folk and making mischief for as long as it takes until politicians and parties drop their allegiance to the fossil fuel industry and
posted by Thella at 12:14 AM on October 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Your slippery slope argument is not inevitable. It is not even plausible.
You think small museums are going to wait until they’re targeted to take action? How…optimistic.
Yeah nah. Public access to museums will be limited by the demands on facilities by climate refugees long before some mash makes the doors close.
Have you been paying attention? Museums and artwork are not the point. Last year it was gluing to the road or to glass doors of posh shops or something. Soon it will be another focus.
The point is to say: we are going to keep annoying folk and making mischief for as long as it takes until politicians and parties drop their allegiance to the fossil fuel industry and
- Tell the truth.
- Act now.
- Decide together.
posted by Thella at 12:14 AM on October 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
It is not even plausible
Sure it is -- it's going to be just like security theater in airports. Museums will feel the need to be seen to be doing something, and they'll put in measures (effective or not) that create substantial barriers to people seeing the art.
Have you been paying attention? Museums and artwork are not the point.
I understand that you don't want it to be the point, but lots of people don't agree with you -- and "it's not about the art" is unconvincing when it's coming from someone either literally or metaphorically glued to a painting.
posted by Galvanic at 6:37 AM on October 31, 2022
Sure it is -- it's going to be just like security theater in airports. Museums will feel the need to be seen to be doing something, and they'll put in measures (effective or not) that create substantial barriers to people seeing the art.
Have you been paying attention? Museums and artwork are not the point.
I understand that you don't want it to be the point, but lots of people don't agree with you -- and "it's not about the art" is unconvincing when it's coming from someone either literally or metaphorically glued to a painting.
posted by Galvanic at 6:37 AM on October 31, 2022
I understand that you don't want it to be the point, but lots of people don't agree with you
Argumentum ad populum is not a valid argument. It shows that you are still not getting it. What other people think is not the point of these protests.
posted by Thella at 1:38 PM on October 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Argumentum ad populum is not a valid argument. It shows that you are still not getting it. What other people think is not the point of these protests.
posted by Thella at 1:38 PM on October 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
You want these protests to draw public attention to climate change but no, it doesn’t matter what the public thinks?
“We destroyed the city to save it” has a similar (Ill)logic.
posted by Galvanic at 2:42 PM on October 31, 2022
“We destroyed the city to save it” has a similar (Ill)logic.
posted by Galvanic at 2:42 PM on October 31, 2022
I, too, am very reasonable and always right.
posted by Not A Thing at 2:47 PM on October 31, 2022
posted by Not A Thing at 2:47 PM on October 31, 2022
The general lack of monkeywrench protests against the actual carbon delivery infrastructure does continue to be a bit of a mystery to me.
posted by hippybear at 11:25 AM on October 25
The largest of these actions was undertaken by the richest man in the world to drive his profits up.
When Columbia Gas was weak enough to get ransomed, Columbia Gas was rewarded by a massive spike in profits.
In Texas, who profited the most when the weather froze and broke the gas pipelines? If you guessed the gas companies, like Comstock, you would be correct.
It seems like the companies themselves build and operate the damn things as cheaply as possible. Getting them to explode seems to be profitable. I would understand if activists didn't want to play into the scheme.
posted by eustatic at 10:25 PM on October 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 11:25 AM on October 25
The largest of these actions was undertaken by the richest man in the world to drive his profits up.
When Columbia Gas was weak enough to get ransomed, Columbia Gas was rewarded by a massive spike in profits.
In Texas, who profited the most when the weather froze and broke the gas pipelines? If you guessed the gas companies, like Comstock, you would be correct.
It seems like the companies themselves build and operate the damn things as cheaply as possible. Getting them to explode seems to be profitable. I would understand if activists didn't want to play into the scheme.
posted by eustatic at 10:25 PM on October 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think it's interesting that the NYT, who was all over the mashed potatoes and tomato soup, hasn't got a story on the more traditional Downing Street protests.
posted by mittens at 5:54 AM on November 1, 2022
posted by mittens at 5:54 AM on November 1, 2022
@JustStop_Oil:
BREAKING: Just Stop Oil pause disruptionposted by gwint at 9:45 AM on November 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
From today, Just Stop Oil will pause its campaign of civil resistance. We are giving time to those in the Government who are in touch with reality to consider their responsibilities to this country at this time.
If, as we sadly expect, we receive no response from ministers to our demand by the end of Friday 4 Nov, we will escalate our legal disruption against this treasonous Govt. Our action will be proportionate to the task of stopping the crime against humanity which is new oil & gas.
Mod note: A few deleted. Noticing a back-and-forth sort of exchange between a select few users and it's not contributing much to the thread, if anything it is contributing to a major derail. Let's pause on commenting further if it's to reply and/or argue with another user
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 3:09 PM on November 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 3:09 PM on November 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
I had a realization last night that one possible escalation path of this kind of protest action is rather than a symbolic defacement of artworks, people could instead take the artworks hostage, e.g.: something like "reduce CO2 emissions by X% by the year 20XX or else the painting gets it". I recall reading something a while back about how the physical security at many museums are much less than you would expect from, say, heist movies and that highly-motivated actors who are willing and able to employ violence (or at least threats of violence) could conceivably get away with quite a lot of stuff. Of course, I imagine that the bigger challenge would be to successfully make a getaway and remain undetected while holding the artwork hostage.
posted by mhum at 2:54 PM on November 3, 2022
posted by mhum at 2:54 PM on November 3, 2022
Eddie Mars> I think that's an extremely optimistic take on what would really happen.
I've heard the "KSR is too optimistic in The Ministry for the Future" take before by folks like Francis Fukuyama, but..
You guys just read between the lines poorly. In the story, there are 10s of millions of Indians and Pakistanis dying every summer for like a decade, likely other nations foresee similar, like Mexico, Indonesia, Israel, etc. All this changes three important factors:
First, there is no longer any shortage of first world citizens who'll risk terrorism charges, execution, etc., so you really have a Butlerian jihad moment here.
Second, there is a massive semi-hidden effort by some of these nations to train and support the actions against fossil fuels by the Children of Kali.
Third, there are at least two of those nations with nuclear weapons now, which changes everything. India alone is believed to be capable of making another 1000 nuclear weapons if they wished. Importantly, they had those 10 years to position those warheads before some off page conversation in which the president first threatens their ambassador and then decides it's best to just let the Children of Kali win.
It's also plausible the CIA themselves organized the Children of Kali or something, like maybe after realizing "Russia wins" if they do not stop emissions.
Anyways, KSR admits the book is optimistic, but if you want a more realistic take then try this story:
First, everyone bans food exports, and trade collapses, which ends incentive for global peace. Second, mass nuclear proliferation occurs and various southern nations fight a series of small asymmetric nuclear wars against heavy CO2 & methane emitters, mostly infrastructure targeted. Third, we de facto establish an international norm that coal, oil, gas, and meat are acts of war against everyone else.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:43 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've heard the "KSR is too optimistic in The Ministry for the Future" take before by folks like Francis Fukuyama, but..
You guys just read between the lines poorly. In the story, there are 10s of millions of Indians and Pakistanis dying every summer for like a decade, likely other nations foresee similar, like Mexico, Indonesia, Israel, etc. All this changes three important factors:
First, there is no longer any shortage of first world citizens who'll risk terrorism charges, execution, etc., so you really have a Butlerian jihad moment here.
Second, there is a massive semi-hidden effort by some of these nations to train and support the actions against fossil fuels by the Children of Kali.
Third, there are at least two of those nations with nuclear weapons now, which changes everything. India alone is believed to be capable of making another 1000 nuclear weapons if they wished. Importantly, they had those 10 years to position those warheads before some off page conversation in which the president first threatens their ambassador and then decides it's best to just let the Children of Kali win.
It's also plausible the CIA themselves organized the Children of Kali or something, like maybe after realizing "Russia wins" if they do not stop emissions.
Anyways, KSR admits the book is optimistic, but if you want a more realistic take then try this story:
First, everyone bans food exports, and trade collapses, which ends incentive for global peace. Second, mass nuclear proliferation occurs and various southern nations fight a series of small asymmetric nuclear wars against heavy CO2 & methane emitters, mostly infrastructure targeted. Third, we de facto establish an international norm that coal, oil, gas, and meat are acts of war against everyone else.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:43 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wow, IEN's claims are impressive if true, thanks Gerald Bostock.
Last Generation turned off oil pipelines at five locations in Germany last April.
hippybear, All protests are implicit threats of more violent actions, but the question is how credible? Aka what real power backs up this threat of violence?
As the Gandhi approach goes, if you hold enough control over the narrative, then you might build a real mass movement once the climate begins directly screwing up first world peoples' lives. There exists real power other than true mass movements however:
Women's and gay rights succeeded once events demonstrated that they benefit corporations. This is the "green growth" blind hope too, but that's not realistic in theory or practice. We face too many climate scale risks.
Alternatively, an alliance between numerous native activists and a major hostile foreign government frequently forces the native government into acquiescence. MLK's Civil Rights movement succeeded in part because other black groups were talking with the USSR, so the CIA advised favoring MLK. We never have this last option in environmental movements before, but The Ministry for the Future by KSR hopes this'll change.
Anyways..
At the scale we're discussing here, I think theater monkeywrenching like turning off pipelines or deflating tires winds up similar to throwing food on famous paintings. These simply shows conviction, which then raises awareness and helps control the narrative.
In other words, protests are like art, it matters if the overall trends is something like say abstract impressionism, but it doesn't matter if you dislike a particular flavor like say Jackson Pollock.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:00 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Last Generation turned off oil pipelines at five locations in Germany last April.
hippybear, All protests are implicit threats of more violent actions, but the question is how credible? Aka what real power backs up this threat of violence?
As the Gandhi approach goes, if you hold enough control over the narrative, then you might build a real mass movement once the climate begins directly screwing up first world peoples' lives. There exists real power other than true mass movements however:
Women's and gay rights succeeded once events demonstrated that they benefit corporations. This is the "green growth" blind hope too, but that's not realistic in theory or practice. We face too many climate scale risks.
Alternatively, an alliance between numerous native activists and a major hostile foreign government frequently forces the native government into acquiescence. MLK's Civil Rights movement succeeded in part because other black groups were talking with the USSR, so the CIA advised favoring MLK. We never have this last option in environmental movements before, but The Ministry for the Future by KSR hopes this'll change.
Anyways..
At the scale we're discussing here, I think theater monkeywrenching like turning off pipelines or deflating tires winds up similar to throwing food on famous paintings. These simply shows conviction, which then raises awareness and helps control the narrative.
In other words, protests are like art, it matters if the overall trends is something like say abstract impressionism, but it doesn't matter if you dislike a particular flavor like say Jackson Pollock.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:00 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
All protests are implicit threats of more violent actions,
Deeply disagree with this premise.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:46 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Deeply disagree with this premise.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:46 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Women's and gay rights succeeded once events demonstrated that they benefit corporations.
That sentence is so disconnected from the history of gay rights that it's hard to even engage with it. It takes decades of struggle, sweeps them off the table, and says, "Well, the corporations really like their Pride advertisements, that must be the whole story!"
But it's interesting, because I think this line also feels disconnected from history: "First, everyone bans food exports, and trade collapses." We're currently going through a bit of that, aren't we? Lots of countries banning exports. Except...after India banned wheat exports, those exports doubled. I think there's a scarier possibility that the global food trade will continue even in the face of massive starvation.
posted by mittens at 6:34 AM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
That sentence is so disconnected from the history of gay rights that it's hard to even engage with it. It takes decades of struggle, sweeps them off the table, and says, "Well, the corporations really like their Pride advertisements, that must be the whole story!"
But it's interesting, because I think this line also feels disconnected from history: "First, everyone bans food exports, and trade collapses." We're currently going through a bit of that, aren't we? Lots of countries banning exports. Except...after India banned wheat exports, those exports doubled. I think there's a scarier possibility that the global food trade will continue even in the face of massive starvation.
posted by mittens at 6:34 AM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
As the word "once" suggests, it's impossible for events to demonstrate much without an ongoing struggle, like the struggle provides a social answer which awaits a social question about which the powerful care. It could've succeeded much faster though if either vastly more ordinary people cared, or else if some foreign power were religiously trying to impose those rights, another social question about which the powerful care.
We do not have many food export bans yet, so it's kinda hard to see how they play out, but.. Joe Tainter says collapse runs slow by human time scales, and collapse wont be homogeneous, so yes you're correct we should expect nations export for-profit crops so their powerful can have luxury, while their poor starve.
It's an extremely brief "story" which glosses over much, but it exists to answer KSR critics and contrast with KSR's more optimistic take: First, humanity solves major ecological problems without so much social unity. Second, the "performative" aka protest part is much more violent than shooting down a few private jets.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:29 AM on November 6, 2022
We do not have many food export bans yet, so it's kinda hard to see how they play out, but.. Joe Tainter says collapse runs slow by human time scales, and collapse wont be homogeneous, so yes you're correct we should expect nations export for-profit crops so their powerful can have luxury, while their poor starve.
It's an extremely brief "story" which glosses over much, but it exists to answer KSR critics and contrast with KSR's more optimistic take: First, humanity solves major ecological problems without so much social unity. Second, the "performative" aka protest part is much more violent than shooting down a few private jets.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:29 AM on November 6, 2022
Climate activists in Austria throw black substance at Klimt painting 'Death and Life'
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:36 AM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:36 AM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
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Their own hands, or did they bring extras?
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:46 AM on October 25, 2022 [35 favorites]