"[T]he cruel jokes don’t ruin his day anymore"
November 6, 2022 12:27 PM Subscribe
Limb lengthening used to be surgery primarily performed on little people (great first-person account here, shorter news article) or people with limb length discrepancies (YT channel, podcast). However in the last 15 years, more of the people who are getting the procedure done are getting it for cosmetic reasons, often "men with confidence issues." Surgery (and aftercare) is painful, time-consuming, and expensive yet it became much more popular during the early pandemic when lengthy recovery time would be less apparent. [previously. CW most of these links involve surgery talk and/or photographs]
If they feel it helps and they aren't hurting anyone, I AM for it.
posted by bootlegpop at 1:46 PM on November 6, 2022
posted by bootlegpop at 1:46 PM on November 6, 2022
I suppose I'm happy the surgery is available as an option for people, but I also find some of the stories sad and it seems strange how much importance we can give to height sometimes.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:46 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 1:46 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
I am all for anyone being able to change whatever body part(s) they want/need to without judgement. I am sad that we (human beings) continue to be cruel to one another over our differences to the degree that expensive, painful procedures are an answer for some just because of that cruelty.
posted by agatha_magatha at 2:02 PM on November 6, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by agatha_magatha at 2:02 PM on November 6, 2022 [28 favorites]
I know a kid who went through this procedure. He had one leg shorter than the other, this was causing deformities in his spine which would eventually cripple him without treatment. We met in a gaming channel on IRC. Getting around was agony for him so he spent most of his time gaming and was always up for a chat. Being housebound, his social circle was entirely on the internet.
He was miserable. He felt like he was missing out on being a teenager. He was lonely, angry, bored, fed-up and in a lot of pain. It sucked and he fucking hated it. I can't blame him, he got a bad deal.
It got worse for him, there were complications and they had to rebreak the bone and start over. The braces were difficult to keep clean and there were infections. The pain medications were stupefying, and they became less effective over time. Mentally he was in a dark place.
He got through - he's okay now. Walking around a college and getting on with his life.
So - anyone that wants to do this just so they can be taller, I really want them to understand what they're committing to. Maybe think about getting shoes with lifts.
posted by adept256 at 2:16 PM on November 6, 2022 [28 favorites]
He was miserable. He felt like he was missing out on being a teenager. He was lonely, angry, bored, fed-up and in a lot of pain. It sucked and he fucking hated it. I can't blame him, he got a bad deal.
It got worse for him, there were complications and they had to rebreak the bone and start over. The braces were difficult to keep clean and there were infections. The pain medications were stupefying, and they became less effective over time. Mentally he was in a dark place.
He got through - he's okay now. Walking around a college and getting on with his life.
So - anyone that wants to do this just so they can be taller, I really want them to understand what they're committing to. Maybe think about getting shoes with lifts.
posted by adept256 at 2:16 PM on November 6, 2022 [28 favorites]
In She-Devil, she has the reverse: limb shortening surgery. As a fellow tall woman, that detail leapt out at me.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:18 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:18 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Dammit, now I've got that 90's Skee-Lo jam stuck in my head.
posted by bartleby at 3:02 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by bartleby at 3:02 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
I broke my knee once, and was out of commission for a good long time. It was a miserable experience -- the immobility, the loss of freedom, constant exhaustion for months, the inability to sleep any way but on your back...
Corrective surgery is one thing. But as a vanity project, volunteering to go into that torment? I can't imagine seeing that as a fair trade. I suppose I'm lucky?
posted by Capt. Renault at 3:29 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Corrective surgery is one thing. But as a vanity project, volunteering to go into that torment? I can't imagine seeing that as a fair trade. I suppose I'm lucky?
posted by Capt. Renault at 3:29 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I guess if your choices are therapy, or agonising months-long surgical procedure… jfc men will do anything but have therapy
posted by The River Ivel at 3:34 PM on November 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 3:34 PM on November 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
Good for them, sure!
That being said, I'm a pretty short guy but if I somehow were going to spend $80K+ (and it's probably a big amount of plus when you include the costs of physical therapy, surgery followups, drugs, missed time from work, etc.) to improve my appearance, this is not the route I would take.
Like, if I gave $50K to an underemployed artist friend with a good eye for aesthetics and said, you have one week and a $30K budget to style me, I think I'd have much better results, zero recovery time, and a lot more fun. But again, to each their own, and maybe that's why I don't have $80K to spend on appearance-enhancing surgery!
posted by smelendez at 3:34 PM on November 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
That being said, I'm a pretty short guy but if I somehow were going to spend $80K+ (and it's probably a big amount of plus when you include the costs of physical therapy, surgery followups, drugs, missed time from work, etc.) to improve my appearance, this is not the route I would take.
Like, if I gave $50K to an underemployed artist friend with a good eye for aesthetics and said, you have one week and a $30K budget to style me, I think I'd have much better results, zero recovery time, and a lot more fun. But again, to each their own, and maybe that's why I don't have $80K to spend on appearance-enhancing surgery!
posted by smelendez at 3:34 PM on November 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
In one of the articles, they're saying it's a $789 increase in income per year per inch. The surgery pays for itself in 35 years, just like a mortgage.
Not my personal idea of how to spend that kind of money, but as far as I can tell, it's less likely than an SUV to hurt other people.
posted by aniola at 4:03 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
“Then I had one family contact me from Vancouver. They had a young adult son that was pretty much depressed and suicidal about (his height), and basically begged me to do it,” she said. “And so I did it.”
Looking back, Gdalevitch reflects that her leg lengthening patients were among the happiest she’s ever had: “They’ll text me months and years after to thank me for doing it.”
Not my personal idea of how to spend that kind of money, but as far as I can tell, it's less likely than an SUV to hurt other people.
posted by aniola at 4:03 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
“Actually doing the surgery, it's been great,” John said. “It wasn’t even painful at all.”
Yeah, no. There's no downplaying this. This is a very big deal. Pain can be managed. What is far more difficult is managing the changes to your very identity -- you go through the world one way, and with the surgery, you have a very different world to deal with. How do you accept that, on a physical level, on a psychological level? This is not easy.
If that's your choice, if that's what you want -- go for it. But there's no saying that this is no big deal. It is. It's a huge deal.
posted by Capt. Renault at 4:09 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah, no. There's no downplaying this. This is a very big deal. Pain can be managed. What is far more difficult is managing the changes to your very identity -- you go through the world one way, and with the surgery, you have a very different world to deal with. How do you accept that, on a physical level, on a psychological level? This is not easy.
If that's your choice, if that's what you want -- go for it. But there's no saying that this is no big deal. It is. It's a huge deal.
posted by Capt. Renault at 4:09 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is a very big deal. Pain can be managed.
Well and one of the things that was interesting to me was that the surgery isn't too painful but for some people the "healing" process which involves basically stretching the legs so that new bone grows in the teeny gaps in your bones, in legs that are encased in these metal ring things, can be extremely painful and takes a while. This is as opposed to limb shortening which takes a lot less time and isn't done anywhere near as often. So not only were you in a bad spot to begin with--for some of these people it's more like elective and for some of them, they were in a dark place before they decided this was maybe a way out of it--it can be hard. One of the other things mentioned is that while it's recommended that this NOT be a procedure performed on people with body dysmorphia, different doctors make different decisions.
I think we're more familiar with the stories and experiences of people who have had breast reduction/augmentation, or a nose job, or a facelift. But yes, these change is a lot more extreme and requires more sacrifice in most ways. The "previously" link has a pretty good firsthand account of going through this, and I think it's where I first learned that people did this electively. I did read Dwarf: A Memoir of How One Woman Fought for a Body-and a Life-She Was Never Supposed to Have and it's a great, if sobering, read.
posted by jessamyn at 4:19 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well and one of the things that was interesting to me was that the surgery isn't too painful but for some people the "healing" process which involves basically stretching the legs so that new bone grows in the teeny gaps in your bones, in legs that are encased in these metal ring things, can be extremely painful and takes a while. This is as opposed to limb shortening which takes a lot less time and isn't done anywhere near as often. So not only were you in a bad spot to begin with--for some of these people it's more like elective and for some of them, they were in a dark place before they decided this was maybe a way out of it--it can be hard. One of the other things mentioned is that while it's recommended that this NOT be a procedure performed on people with body dysmorphia, different doctors make different decisions.
I think we're more familiar with the stories and experiences of people who have had breast reduction/augmentation, or a nose job, or a facelift. But yes, these change is a lot more extreme and requires more sacrifice in most ways. The "previously" link has a pretty good firsthand account of going through this, and I think it's where I first learned that people did this electively. I did read Dwarf: A Memoir of How One Woman Fought for a Body-and a Life-She Was Never Supposed to Have and it's a great, if sobering, read.
posted by jessamyn at 4:19 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I know a family who had a boy who entered kindergarten in the 2nd percentile of height.
They put him on growth hormone, and he is now 6'1” and a very successful pediatric oncologist.
As I understand it, he will remain on prescribed growth hormone for the rest of his life, but it’s hard to argue with the decision his parents made
posted by jamjam at 4:21 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
They put him on growth hormone, and he is now 6'1” and a very successful pediatric oncologist.
As I understand it, he will remain on prescribed growth hormone for the rest of his life, but it’s hard to argue with the decision his parents made
posted by jamjam at 4:21 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm generally at peace in my body but I do spend some time wondering what it's like to go through life with a very different body. I'm tall and thin but what if I was taller and big? What is the world like for you? Or if you're a lot shorter? Or short and fat? Or just fat? How does any of that experience affect how you feel about you and how you feel about the world and how the world feels about you? Like, I cannot escape this *gestures vaguely up and down* but others also cannot escape and so... what's it all like for each of us?
Anyway, it's a thing I think about here and there. So I sort of get the "if I could fix this about myself, I would" impulse.
posted by hippybear at 4:24 PM on November 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Anyway, it's a thing I think about here and there. So I sort of get the "if I could fix this about myself, I would" impulse.
posted by hippybear at 4:24 PM on November 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
If they feel it helps and they aren't hurting anyone, I AM for it.
As a shorter than "average" person... I don't feel that I was particularly disadvantaged by my height. My height wasn't the reason I didn't get a lot of dates through high school; it was because I was a nerdy jerk. Of course, the nerd thing worked out just fine, careerwise.
I would possibly be more supportive of this sort of cosmetic operation if I knew that all the people who NEED orthopedic surgery because of accident, disease or deformity had altready received it.
posted by Artful Codger at 4:45 PM on November 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
As a shorter than "average" person... I don't feel that I was particularly disadvantaged by my height. My height wasn't the reason I didn't get a lot of dates through high school; it was because I was a nerdy jerk. Of course, the nerd thing worked out just fine, careerwise.
I would possibly be more supportive of this sort of cosmetic operation if I knew that all the people who NEED orthopedic surgery because of accident, disease or deformity had altready received it.
posted by Artful Codger at 4:45 PM on November 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
Cis people get gender affirming surgery routinely, and this falls in that category. I support it because I support gender affirming surgery for normal people and cis people. People should get to be comfortable in their bodies.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:04 PM on November 6, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 5:04 PM on November 6, 2022 [25 favorites]
I simply can't imagine the level of torment someone would have to be going through to undergo this sort of surgery. It must be awful. I'm glad this option is there for people who need it.
posted by MrVisible at 5:13 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 5:13 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
People should get to be comfortable in their bodies.
So, I'm believe in bodily autonomy and informed medical self-agency, with some I-think-reasonable caveats that mostly have to do with communicable disease and society existing. Getting cosmetic surgery, being part of the extreme bodymod crowd, go be the best version of you that you can imagine. But self-actualization isn't really self-actualization when one's self has been defined by some malicious other. I'm thinking of skin bleaching, buttock injections, this.
I guess it's not up to me. I hope this person finds peace in their new frame, and that the world trends towards enough kindness that over time people feel less like their only path to that peace is through something like this.
posted by mhoye at 5:30 PM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
So, I'm believe in bodily autonomy and informed medical self-agency, with some I-think-reasonable caveats that mostly have to do with communicable disease and society existing. Getting cosmetic surgery, being part of the extreme bodymod crowd, go be the best version of you that you can imagine. But self-actualization isn't really self-actualization when one's self has been defined by some malicious other. I'm thinking of skin bleaching, buttock injections, this.
I guess it's not up to me. I hope this person finds peace in their new frame, and that the world trends towards enough kindness that over time people feel less like their only path to that peace is through something like this.
posted by mhoye at 5:30 PM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
My son is 15, and 5'3". He's very built; he puts on muscles like nobody's business, and looks older than he is. But his legs are disproportionately small for his torso. He used to be a gymnast, and he is now an excellent diver, and his short stature is good for both those sports, but he struggles with his height. He is simultaneously very confident and OK with himself, and wishing he were taller. He recently connected with his birth father for the first time. His birth father is 5'10", and my son's half-brother looks just like him in the face (and muscles!) but is six feet tall. It's hard for him.
The other day I took him and his older brother (5' 10") to lunch, and the host glanced at him, saw only his height, and asked me if he wanted a children's menu.
He talks about getting the leg-lengthening surgery someday. I can imagine him doing it. I can also imagine him getting more settled and comfortable in himself as he gets older, and deciding it's not worth it. His dad and I have both let him know that we will not be able to help him with this financially, but, as distressing as it is to me to even contemplate this surgery (I'm pretty squicked by it), we'll support him in any way we can if this is the choice he makes.
My partner, his dad, transitioned female-to-male 25 years ago, when insurance covering any of the surgeries was practically unheard of, so we know about spending tens of thousands of dollars on medical procedures that lots and lots of people deny are necessary. So many people, both people we knew in person and pundits writing think pieces, went on and on about, "Why can't trans people just learn to be comfortable with the bodies they have?"
We also know, from this experience, how amazingly good it can feel when you have the body that fits you. I'll never forget what it was like taking my partner shopping for work clothes after his transition, after years of having to shop for skirts and wear hose. He's a jeans-and-t-shirt person but he actually went through a dapper phase, wearing suits and spiffy ties. Clothes shopping became pleasant for him instead of stressful and overwhelming.
If my son does decide to have the surgery, I think he'll be happy with the results. If he decides not to, I think he'll be fine, too.
posted by Well I never at 5:38 PM on November 6, 2022 [57 favorites]
The other day I took him and his older brother (5' 10") to lunch, and the host glanced at him, saw only his height, and asked me if he wanted a children's menu.
He talks about getting the leg-lengthening surgery someday. I can imagine him doing it. I can also imagine him getting more settled and comfortable in himself as he gets older, and deciding it's not worth it. His dad and I have both let him know that we will not be able to help him with this financially, but, as distressing as it is to me to even contemplate this surgery (I'm pretty squicked by it), we'll support him in any way we can if this is the choice he makes.
My partner, his dad, transitioned female-to-male 25 years ago, when insurance covering any of the surgeries was practically unheard of, so we know about spending tens of thousands of dollars on medical procedures that lots and lots of people deny are necessary. So many people, both people we knew in person and pundits writing think pieces, went on and on about, "Why can't trans people just learn to be comfortable with the bodies they have?"
We also know, from this experience, how amazingly good it can feel when you have the body that fits you. I'll never forget what it was like taking my partner shopping for work clothes after his transition, after years of having to shop for skirts and wear hose. He's a jeans-and-t-shirt person but he actually went through a dapper phase, wearing suits and spiffy ties. Clothes shopping became pleasant for him instead of stressful and overwhelming.
If my son does decide to have the surgery, I think he'll be happy with the results. If he decides not to, I think he'll be fine, too.
posted by Well I never at 5:38 PM on November 6, 2022 [57 favorites]
WEIGHT TALK AHEAD
It bums me out that you can’t get this done with a bmi over 30, if the links in the post are to be believed. I’d be a terrible candidate for other reasons, I broke my ankle and was immobile for six weeks and nearly went out of my gourd, and I also don’t have $75,000, but I hate being 5’2. If they let me have the surgery, my bmi could go down by 7 points! Isn’t that what everyone wants for me??? /sarcasm
posted by Tesseractive at 5:42 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
It bums me out that you can’t get this done with a bmi over 30, if the links in the post are to be believed. I’d be a terrible candidate for other reasons, I broke my ankle and was immobile for six weeks and nearly went out of my gourd, and I also don’t have $75,000, but I hate being 5’2. If they let me have the surgery, my bmi could go down by 7 points! Isn’t that what everyone wants for me??? /sarcasm
posted by Tesseractive at 5:42 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Tesseractive, that is definitely one way to meet their ridiculous BMI standards. ;-)
My older son challenged my 15yo to sit still for as long as he could the other day, and he could not do it for as much as 30 seconds. That may be a significant barrier for him as well, along with the money.
posted by Well I never at 5:54 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
My older son challenged my 15yo to sit still for as long as he could the other day, and he could not do it for as much as 30 seconds. That may be a significant barrier for him as well, along with the money.
posted by Well I never at 5:54 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
A couple of inches? I'm 5'4 and a couple of inches wouldn't really make much of a difference. I'd still be short. Would I like to be taller, of course. I've been short all my life though and I've learned to live with my differences. I hope this makes these folks happy. Life is too short (ha!) to live it unhappy.
posted by evilDoug at 7:29 PM on November 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 7:29 PM on November 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I know a family who had a boy who entered kindergarten in the 2nd percentile of height.
They put him on growth hormone, and he is now 6'1” and a very successful pediatric oncologist.
As I understand it, he will remain on prescribed growth hormone for the rest of his life, but it’s hard to argue with the decision his parents made
Both my brother and I have consistently been at 2nd percentile height our whole lives.
Our parents did nothing about this and we're both now very successful highly-paid professionals with multiple graduate degrees and long-term relationships.
We'll remain short for the rest of our lives but it's hard to argue with the decisions our parents made.
Being 6'1" is not an intrinsically better outcome than being 5'4". It's just different.
posted by plonkee at 2:44 AM on November 7, 2022 [16 favorites]
They put him on growth hormone, and he is now 6'1” and a very successful pediatric oncologist.
As I understand it, he will remain on prescribed growth hormone for the rest of his life, but it’s hard to argue with the decision his parents made
Both my brother and I have consistently been at 2nd percentile height our whole lives.
Our parents did nothing about this and we're both now very successful highly-paid professionals with multiple graduate degrees and long-term relationships.
We'll remain short for the rest of our lives but it's hard to argue with the decisions our parents made.
Being 6'1" is not an intrinsically better outcome than being 5'4". It's just different.
posted by plonkee at 2:44 AM on November 7, 2022 [16 favorites]
I was extremely surprised to see someone on tiktok in their 20s from Australia who as a kid had dwarfism and as an adult was extremely willowy and taller than average height — I don’t know their surgical history and I’m not entitled to, but my surprise was because I had naïvely thought medical intervention for dwarfism was a thing of the past.
posted by lokta at 3:42 AM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by lokta at 3:42 AM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
My sister had this surgery! Like adept256's acquaintance, it was to correct what would have become an orthopedically dangerous difference in leg length after she broke her hip at age 11 (the other option was to cut a couple inches out of her other femur). She ended up spending a couple months at Johns Hopkins in Maryland, going to "school" at the little tutoring center attached to the surgery with about a dozen other kids, from early teens to babies, who were getting the same process done for a pretty wide variety of reasons.
While her procedure went smoothly, it was rough. Pin care is painful and incredibly critical to avoid infection, because you basically have open wounds that go clear to the bone all over your limb. The process of lengthening involves cranking the broken ends of your bone apart a tiny bit several times a week. That hurt. Her thigh looks like she caught a bunch of shrapnel in 'Nam. The damage to the muscles necessitated physical therapy for a loooong time to regain range of motion in her knee and hip.
And, of course, no one wanted to do any pain management. She walks fine now, and it was probably ultimately the right medical choice, but she's got a whopping case of medical PTSD and, of course, it drained my parents' entire retirement savings. I met a girl at her clinic that had dwarfism and was getting all four limbs lengthened - eight separate procedures - and I really cannot imagine doing that voluntarily.
posted by restless_nomad at 4:15 AM on November 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
While her procedure went smoothly, it was rough. Pin care is painful and incredibly critical to avoid infection, because you basically have open wounds that go clear to the bone all over your limb. The process of lengthening involves cranking the broken ends of your bone apart a tiny bit several times a week. That hurt. Her thigh looks like she caught a bunch of shrapnel in 'Nam. The damage to the muscles necessitated physical therapy for a loooong time to regain range of motion in her knee and hip.
And, of course, no one wanted to do any pain management. She walks fine now, and it was probably ultimately the right medical choice, but she's got a whopping case of medical PTSD and, of course, it drained my parents' entire retirement savings. I met a girl at her clinic that had dwarfism and was getting all four limbs lengthened - eight separate procedures - and I really cannot imagine doing that voluntarily.
posted by restless_nomad at 4:15 AM on November 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Also out of that YouTube channel, this video on myths is one I'm finding really enlightening in sort of describing via negative space the mindset of people who are looking into this for cosmetic reasons.
posted by restless_nomad at 4:39 AM on November 7, 2022
posted by restless_nomad at 4:39 AM on November 7, 2022
OK I promise I'll stop now but a) wow, the procedure has improved a lot. No more external fixators, now a nail with a magnetic motor(?!) that can be stretched remotely. That makes it much more understandable as a cosmetic procedure, and, I assume, much safer and b) that YouTube channel has my sister's surgeon interviewed several times (Dr. Paley) and huh, he's still at it.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:00 AM on November 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 5:00 AM on November 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I grew up on Long Island, where there are enough Latino and southern Italian men that I never felt short (my license says I'm 5'8"; I don't think I'm that tall even in shoes). "Short" really is subjective, and it sucks that these guys feel so ragged on for their height. Half the men I know are shorter than me. They're fine.
That said, sure, if this is something these men feel they need to be comfortable in their bodies, then it's good that it's available to them. But, as with anything ... it'd probably be better to treat the (societal) disease rather than the symptom.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:05 AM on November 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
That said, sure, if this is something these men feel they need to be comfortable in their bodies, then it's good that it's available to them. But, as with anything ... it'd probably be better to treat the (societal) disease rather than the symptom.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:05 AM on November 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm guessing that societal pressure in the form of cruel jokes, constant articles about tall men having advantages in work and relationships, and media portrayals are what people would feel most strongly. But as someone who is taller than average, something I notice every day is how the built environment is designed for some "average" size person so I end up feeling constantly like I don't fit. Houses, cars, shelves at the grocery store, regular clothing sizes -- everything assumes you are maybe 5' 8", plus or minus a couple of inches (as well as "height/weight proportionate" aka not fat).
So someone who is down at the lower end of the height spectrum is going to feel this everyday as well, just from the other side. Counters are too high, car seats don't adjust far enough (or, you can adjust but then are sitting dangerously close to the airbag), clothes in stores don't fit, and on and on.
Like I said above, this is probably trivial compared to, say, cruel comments or social rejection, but it's also pervasive and almost impossible to escape unless you can curate your life to spend it entirely in custom-built spaces that fit your size.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:26 AM on November 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
So someone who is down at the lower end of the height spectrum is going to feel this everyday as well, just from the other side. Counters are too high, car seats don't adjust far enough (or, you can adjust but then are sitting dangerously close to the airbag), clothes in stores don't fit, and on and on.
Like I said above, this is probably trivial compared to, say, cruel comments or social rejection, but it's also pervasive and almost impossible to escape unless you can curate your life to spend it entirely in custom-built spaces that fit your size.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:26 AM on November 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I think being trans makes unfamiliar body mods like this feel... unsurprising and worth being chill about, whatever I happen to think about whether they're sensible.
Like, on top of mainstream GRS, I can think of four different not-found-in-nature urogenital configurations that people I know have gotten installed, and I think all of them are at least moderately glad they did it. Plus various chest and face situations, and I don't know... People just end up wanting all sorts of body things.
Anyway, it's harder than you might think to draw a line between "legitimate dysphoria" and "pathological obsession," and while some trans people do try very hard to do that, a lot find it easier to adopt a culture of "Oh cool! I didn't know they could do that! Fuck yeah, seems weird, I hope it goes well for them."
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:47 AM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Like, on top of mainstream GRS, I can think of four different not-found-in-nature urogenital configurations that people I know have gotten installed, and I think all of them are at least moderately glad they did it. Plus various chest and face situations, and I don't know... People just end up wanting all sorts of body things.
Anyway, it's harder than you might think to draw a line between "legitimate dysphoria" and "pathological obsession," and while some trans people do try very hard to do that, a lot find it easier to adopt a culture of "Oh cool! I didn't know they could do that! Fuck yeah, seems weird, I hope it goes well for them."
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:47 AM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Individual choice and body modification rights is good, but I also see this as a way for short men to buy into a status quo where "tall man = authority" and I'm not down with that part of it.
posted by daisystomper at 6:25 AM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by daisystomper at 6:25 AM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Being tall is best" is a racist discourse. It draws on explicitly articulated ideas about how white Europeans (especially British and German) are tall and powerful and deserve to rule over shorter, more Southern people, whose inferiority can be seen in their size.
This is pretty standard colonialist stuff that you can see in lots of 19th century materials - the English are tall and eat beef and are honest and straightforward and good-looking, while the French and the Italians and certainly any Asian people are small and feeble and eat wrong and are child-like and woman-like and can't rule themselves.
It's also tied into misogyny, because inevitably the colonized peoples are explicitly compared to women as part of the reason why they need to be governed by large, strong white men.
Further, it's specifically dehumanizing - the English for instance are described as individuals, whereas the shortness and smallness of other peoples is used to compare them to insects and small animals, interchangeable and killable.
This discourse developed at a time where there was a pronounced height difference between rich people (the local aristocracy, the national aristocracy) who could afford to eat enough and live in healthier conditions and the shorter, smaller peasants and city people who were half-starved and lived in constant miasma.
The superiority of the tall man is basically the superiority of the rich white man who deserves to rule.
Height discourse is garbage. I feel pity for people who are bullied into feeling that they need major surgery to be taller, and policing surgery has bad enough effects in other ways that I don't think that is the solution, but it's a nazi discourse that flourishes on the chans, the worst parts of reddit and nazi websites. Left-wing people should never, never feed into it or accept it or treat it as edgelord internet joking.
I don't think people should physically change themselves to literally succeed within a historically fascist and racist framework. Height discourse isn't just "I wish I was prettier" or "movie stars have big muscles and no body hair so I hurt my back lifting weights the wrong way"; it's a specifically racist, misogynist discourse that is about white male rule.
posted by Frowner at 7:12 AM on November 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
This is pretty standard colonialist stuff that you can see in lots of 19th century materials - the English are tall and eat beef and are honest and straightforward and good-looking, while the French and the Italians and certainly any Asian people are small and feeble and eat wrong and are child-like and woman-like and can't rule themselves.
It's also tied into misogyny, because inevitably the colonized peoples are explicitly compared to women as part of the reason why they need to be governed by large, strong white men.
Further, it's specifically dehumanizing - the English for instance are described as individuals, whereas the shortness and smallness of other peoples is used to compare them to insects and small animals, interchangeable and killable.
This discourse developed at a time where there was a pronounced height difference between rich people (the local aristocracy, the national aristocracy) who could afford to eat enough and live in healthier conditions and the shorter, smaller peasants and city people who were half-starved and lived in constant miasma.
The superiority of the tall man is basically the superiority of the rich white man who deserves to rule.
Height discourse is garbage. I feel pity for people who are bullied into feeling that they need major surgery to be taller, and policing surgery has bad enough effects in other ways that I don't think that is the solution, but it's a nazi discourse that flourishes on the chans, the worst parts of reddit and nazi websites. Left-wing people should never, never feed into it or accept it or treat it as edgelord internet joking.
I don't think people should physically change themselves to literally succeed within a historically fascist and racist framework. Height discourse isn't just "I wish I was prettier" or "movie stars have big muscles and no body hair so I hurt my back lifting weights the wrong way"; it's a specifically racist, misogynist discourse that is about white male rule.
posted by Frowner at 7:12 AM on November 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
Well now I know why some people are demanding that we all return to the office.
posted by meowzilla at 9:17 AM on November 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 9:17 AM on November 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
It always feels like walking into the Twilight Zone to hear people talking about above average height as an advantage, because as a woman it’s been a liability for me since the day I started Kindergarten.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:29 AM on November 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:29 AM on November 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Metafilter: begrudingly acknowledging short men's bodily autonomy, if only by analogy to women and trans folk.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 1:28 PM on November 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 1:28 PM on November 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
A number of years ago there was a thread here about Prince, and a cruel remark was thrown out because of how tall he wasn't. I shot a message to Cortex, he removed it from the thread.
Anyone else remember personals, on Craiglist or in the weekly rag most cities have? Again and again, the first thing that women specified was "Tall." It's way worse now, best I can figure, because the online dating sites allow people to cut out whoever they don't want; they won't even *see* ads by men below a specific range, and you can bet they are not starting their height range at 5'3".
The shortest I've ever been is "tall for my age." Myself and my brothers all over 6' tall. To us, tall was normal.
I learned that if the hiring manaager was not my height, or close to it, I learned to enter their office shaking their hand while at the same time easing into the chair across from their desk. This does *not* apply if the hiring manager is a woman. It also does not apply for jobs in the trades, in construction -- they want galoots, it is a very helpful thing.
I've a nephew, 5'7" tall. He's one of the best ppl I know. He is a dynamite carpenter, any materiel, commercial or residential. He plays electric and accoustic and plays them well. Being on-stage does not scare him, he loves it. He's like Paul Newman in "Cool Hand Luke," he's got this electric smile, an even better laugh, he walks open-stance just like my father did. I want to kiss him myself. The idea that women won't give him a shot is just ridiculous.
I say go with it. If you've got the cash and are willing to suffer some for a worthwhile outcome, do it. I've got a few bucks set back, re-financed my condo under 3%. Great. My eyes are shot, I'm going to get them fixed, lasers -- cool. If my heart goes south again, or further south "Hey doc, fix this thing, 'k." Cool. I've lived long enough to make it to the future, these doctors and dentists are pretty much magicians. It's the best.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:19 PM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Anyone else remember personals, on Craiglist or in the weekly rag most cities have? Again and again, the first thing that women specified was "Tall." It's way worse now, best I can figure, because the online dating sites allow people to cut out whoever they don't want; they won't even *see* ads by men below a specific range, and you can bet they are not starting their height range at 5'3".
The shortest I've ever been is "tall for my age." Myself and my brothers all over 6' tall. To us, tall was normal.
I learned that if the hiring manaager was not my height, or close to it, I learned to enter their office shaking their hand while at the same time easing into the chair across from their desk. This does *not* apply if the hiring manager is a woman. It also does not apply for jobs in the trades, in construction -- they want galoots, it is a very helpful thing.
I've a nephew, 5'7" tall. He's one of the best ppl I know. He is a dynamite carpenter, any materiel, commercial or residential. He plays electric and accoustic and plays them well. Being on-stage does not scare him, he loves it. He's like Paul Newman in "Cool Hand Luke," he's got this electric smile, an even better laugh, he walks open-stance just like my father did. I want to kiss him myself. The idea that women won't give him a shot is just ridiculous.
I say go with it. If you've got the cash and are willing to suffer some for a worthwhile outcome, do it. I've got a few bucks set back, re-financed my condo under 3%. Great. My eyes are shot, I'm going to get them fixed, lasers -- cool. If my heart goes south again, or further south "Hey doc, fix this thing, 'k." Cool. I've lived long enough to make it to the future, these doctors and dentists are pretty much magicians. It's the best.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:19 PM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I find it fascinating how height is tied to gender in so many ways.
I'm just shy of six feet tall. For someone perceived as a woman, that's very tall. For someone perceived as a man, that's only a little above average.
The most hilarious thing is that I'm a genderqueer transmasc, and desperately wish I were shorter. Many transmascs would kill for height like mine. I can't explain it, but whenever I think about my ideal gender presentation it's guys like Peter Falk, Michael J. Fox, Elijah Wood...
I wouldn't pursue limb-shortening even if it was an option, but I can see why this would matter so much to someone. It is a very gendered aspect of bodies and people's relationships to their bodies re: gender is complex--for cis and trans people.
posted by brook horse at 5:25 PM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm just shy of six feet tall. For someone perceived as a woman, that's very tall. For someone perceived as a man, that's only a little above average.
The most hilarious thing is that I'm a genderqueer transmasc, and desperately wish I were shorter. Many transmascs would kill for height like mine. I can't explain it, but whenever I think about my ideal gender presentation it's guys like Peter Falk, Michael J. Fox, Elijah Wood...
I wouldn't pursue limb-shortening even if it was an option, but I can see why this would matter so much to someone. It is a very gendered aspect of bodies and people's relationships to their bodies re: gender is complex--for cis and trans people.
posted by brook horse at 5:25 PM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
> Metafilter: begrudingly acknowledging short men's bodily autonomy, if only by analogy to women and trans folk.
Trans men are men. There is no analogy when talking about trans men as men.
posted by Bottlecap at 8:49 AM on November 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trans men are men. There is no analogy when talking about trans men as men.
posted by Bottlecap at 8:49 AM on November 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Short men can't be compared to men of any kind, because all men are men, now lets get back to gawking at short men.
I hope this comes across as playful and apologetic, I'm not only short I'm also tactless, and out of touch. I do learn a lot from getting called out. My internal venn diagram needs updating.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 1:55 AM on November 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I hope this comes across as playful and apologetic, I'm not only short I'm also tactless, and out of touch. I do learn a lot from getting called out. My internal venn diagram needs updating.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 1:55 AM on November 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
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It's a really good book, but it's pretty fucked up.
posted by hippybear at 1:34 PM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]