Liking the last few days of BTC price action? You'll love this.
November 11, 2022 10:50 AM Subscribe
I guess the government found a utility for blockchains: Investigating fraud via blockchain. The DOJ and IRS have announced the seizure of 51,351 BTC stolen from the original Silk Road. In 2012 James Zhong devised a scheme to steal BTC from the Silk Road (previously: 1, 2, 3, 4). He was successful...
...And roughly 50k BTC were missing from the marketplace for nearly a decade. Some were in an underground floor safe. Some were on a "single board computer" (raspberry pi?) in a popcorn tin stuffed under blankets in a bathroom closet. The IRS Criminal Investigation, Los Angeles Field Office found it all. James Zhong pled guilty to one count of wire fraud (20yr max). The DOJ seized the BTC.
At the time of seizure the Bitcoins were worth $3.36 Billion
At the time the announcement was made (Monday), the Bitcoins were worth roughly $1 Billion
At the time of writing the Bitcoins are worth $870 Million
If they follow precedent the cryptocurrency will be auctioned off, likely causing the price to fall further by piling onto this fun week for crypto. (previously)
Web3 is Going Just Great (support her here!)
...And roughly 50k BTC were missing from the marketplace for nearly a decade. Some were in an underground floor safe. Some were on a "single board computer" (raspberry pi?) in a popcorn tin stuffed under blankets in a bathroom closet. The IRS Criminal Investigation, Los Angeles Field Office found it all. James Zhong pled guilty to one count of wire fraud (20yr max). The DOJ seized the BTC.
At the time of seizure the Bitcoins were worth $3.36 Billion
At the time the announcement was made (Monday), the Bitcoins were worth roughly $1 Billion
At the time of writing the Bitcoins are worth $870 Million
If they follow precedent the cryptocurrency will be auctioned off, likely causing the price to fall further by piling onto this fun week for crypto. (previously)
Web3 is Going Just Great (support her here!)
When it hits 5¢ I'm buying!
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:08 AM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:08 AM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Funny story, but it turns out fiat can mean a lot more than some people thought it could.
posted by mhoye at 11:11 AM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 11:11 AM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
I lost a couple hundred USD on Bitcoin, proud to say I bought literally the day it peaked around 69k. Me taking an interest in a speculative investment opportunity should be a warning to the world.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 12:04 PM on November 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 12:04 PM on November 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
Love to see this!
Throw every one of those flailing swimmers an anvil.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:05 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Throw every one of those flailing swimmers an anvil.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:05 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I guess the government found a utility for blockchains: Investigating fraud via blockchain.
(This is the part that anyone with even a hint of suspicion in our bodies has been saying from the beginning. So, this step in your galaxy brain criminal mastermind plan where all your transactions show up in this globally visible write- only, unmodifiable ledger, tell us more about how that part fits into your plan to get away with it.)
posted by mhoye at 12:07 PM on November 11, 2022 [21 favorites]
(This is the part that anyone with even a hint of suspicion in our bodies has been saying from the beginning. So, this step in your galaxy brain criminal mastermind plan where all your transactions show up in this globally visible write- only, unmodifiable ledger, tell us more about how that part fits into your plan to get away with it.)
posted by mhoye at 12:07 PM on November 11, 2022 [21 favorites]
criminal mastermind plan where all your transactions show up in this globally visible write- only, unmodifiable ledger
There are definitely a few ways to get away with it, as many scammers have shown over the last year or two, but you have to stay ahead of the other side, and not everyone who successfully steals can successfully conceal. But even then the problem starts the same place it started for Capone and half the other people in the business: actually taking possession of the cash and spending it.
The crypto world is like a funhouse where anything goes inside but the feds have staked out every exit. You can wheel and deal and tumble and tornado and switcheroo but as soon as you try to walk out the door with United States Dollars in your hands, they've got you dead to rights. Scammers netting a few million from a rug pull or whatever have to commit to a serious criminal enterprise and probably a relocation to a financial haven for a few years at least. But the feds clearly have a long memory...
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 1:14 PM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
There are definitely a few ways to get away with it, as many scammers have shown over the last year or two, but you have to stay ahead of the other side, and not everyone who successfully steals can successfully conceal. But even then the problem starts the same place it started for Capone and half the other people in the business: actually taking possession of the cash and spending it.
The crypto world is like a funhouse where anything goes inside but the feds have staked out every exit. You can wheel and deal and tumble and tornado and switcheroo but as soon as you try to walk out the door with United States Dollars in your hands, they've got you dead to rights. Scammers netting a few million from a rug pull or whatever have to commit to a serious criminal enterprise and probably a relocation to a financial haven for a few years at least. But the feds clearly have a long memory...
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 1:14 PM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Actually the funniest part of the original Silk Road investigation was those two+ cops stealing the BTC. It felt almost like DEA agents simply expect to be able to steal some cash in any investigation, so they naturally just stole some BTC when investigating Silk Road, which then blew up in their faces
posted by jeffburdges at 1:18 PM on November 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 1:18 PM on November 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
Crypto Confidence Soars After CEO Defrauds Customers Just Like Real Bank
posted by clawsoon at 1:18 PM on November 11, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:18 PM on November 11, 2022 [20 favorites]
Some were in an underground floor safe. Some were on a "single board computer" (raspberry pi?) in a popcorn tin stuffed under blankets in a bathroom closet.
I want to open the floor to this question: How would you hide a several-kilobyte secret worth a billion dollars?
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:22 PM on November 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I want to open the floor to this question: How would you hide a several-kilobyte secret worth a billion dollars?
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:22 PM on November 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
micro-sd card hidden in a hollow quarter in my change jar wait shit yesterday was laundry day
posted by rifflesby at 1:25 PM on November 11, 2022 [32 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 1:25 PM on November 11, 2022 [32 favorites]
I wrote an fun paper on doing just that, qxntpqbbbqxl. It's handy for CAs, AppStores, etc. too. I enjoyed writing the line "growing up is hard" in reference to cryptography.
You can try Banana Split or RustySecrets if you only need symmetric secrets. Afaik nobody implemented Adept Secret Sharing yet, but RustySecrets planed on doing so.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:33 PM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
You can try Banana Split or RustySecrets if you only need symmetric secrets. Afaik nobody implemented Adept Secret Sharing yet, but RustySecrets planed on doing so.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:33 PM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Wow, Banana Split and RustySecrets are really neat! Thanks for sharing those.
posted by shenkerism at 1:40 PM on November 11, 2022
posted by shenkerism at 1:40 PM on November 11, 2022
How would you hide a several-kilobyte secret worth a billion dollars?
I am told that it is tradition to make use of a bird bath.
posted by loquacious at 1:47 PM on November 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am told that it is tradition to make use of a bird bath.
posted by loquacious at 1:47 PM on November 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also key poems sound fun too.. In fact, I've heard that Taylor Swift encodes bitcoin secret keys into her lyrics, so you guys should try to decipher some of her secret keys.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:02 PM on November 11, 2022
posted by jeffburdges at 2:02 PM on November 11, 2022
I am told that it is tradition to make use of a bird bath.
I guess a critical part of that guy's plan is to post about it publicly. Gutsy!
I was thinking more along the lines of:
1. shave the dog
2. tattoo a QR code onto the dog in ink that's only visible under a blacklight
3. let fur grow back
4. eliminate the tattoo artist
(I haven't finished jeffburdges' paper, but I assume this strategy is discussed there)
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:13 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I guess a critical part of that guy's plan is to post about it publicly. Gutsy!
I was thinking more along the lines of:
1. shave the dog
2. tattoo a QR code onto the dog in ink that's only visible under a blacklight
3. let fur grow back
4. eliminate the tattoo artist
(I haven't finished jeffburdges' paper, but I assume this strategy is discussed there)
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:13 PM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I want to open the floor to this question: How would you hide a several-kilobyte secret worth a billion dollars?
A key factor to consider: how much money would the DOJ spend trying to find a several kilobyte secret worth a billion dollars? Nine hundred ninety nine million and change?
Well, in that scenario, anything you own is suspect, and any property you had is going to be under surveillance and nobody with any kind of shovel, crowbar or other tool will be allowed near unsupervised. Hiding an SD card may be tricky if you can't expect nobody to tear down buildings, bulldoze trees, or sell furniture for 20 years. And in 20 years, can we be sure the SD card still works? Or fuck, even the reader?
No, the best solution would need mutliple copies lying around inconspicously, and available for sale and for public browsing.
posted by pwnguin at 2:21 PM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
A key factor to consider: how much money would the DOJ spend trying to find a several kilobyte secret worth a billion dollars? Nine hundred ninety nine million and change?
Well, in that scenario, anything you own is suspect, and any property you had is going to be under surveillance and nobody with any kind of shovel, crowbar or other tool will be allowed near unsupervised. Hiding an SD card may be tricky if you can't expect nobody to tear down buildings, bulldoze trees, or sell furniture for 20 years. And in 20 years, can we be sure the SD card still works? Or fuck, even the reader?
No, the best solution would need mutliple copies lying around inconspicously, and available for sale and for public browsing.
posted by pwnguin at 2:21 PM on November 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
I want to open the floor to this question: How would you hide a several-kilobyte secret worth a billion dollars?
U r on the right track
posted by chavenet at 3:45 PM on November 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
U r on the right track
posted by chavenet at 3:45 PM on November 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
First, be smart from the very beginning.
posted by introp at 3:54 PM on November 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by introp at 3:54 PM on November 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
Damn I always get that part wrong
posted by trig at 4:44 PM on November 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by trig at 4:44 PM on November 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
I want to open the floor to this question: How would you hide a several-kilobyte secret worth a billion dollars?
I would post it on a text-based website with twenty years of history that was nevertheless two weeks from shutting down, and retrieve it from archive.org when I want to cash out
Except you jerks had to up your pledges
posted by Merus at 5:32 PM on November 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
I would post it on a text-based website with twenty years of history that was nevertheless two weeks from shutting down, and retrieve it from archive.org when I want to cash out
Except you jerks had to up your pledges
posted by Merus at 5:32 PM on November 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
I want to open the floor to this question: How would you hide a several-kilobyte secret worth a billion dollars?
Myself, I store my untold millions on a hard drive conveniently hidden in a landfill in Wales. Sure, it's not exactly liquid, but ain't no Scotland Yard types gonna get their hands on it this way.
posted by Mayor West at 5:39 PM on November 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Myself, I store my untold millions on a hard drive conveniently hidden in a landfill in Wales. Sure, it's not exactly liquid, but ain't no Scotland Yard types gonna get their hands on it this way.
posted by Mayor West at 5:39 PM on November 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Funny story, but it turns out fiat can mean a lot more than some people thought it could.
My first car was a Fiat (a 128 sedan). It was not a good investment.
posted by mr vino at 7:06 PM on November 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
My first car was a Fiat (a 128 sedan). It was not a good investment.
posted by mr vino at 7:06 PM on November 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Loving the deep cut from introp, that’s the good stuff.
posted by mhoye at 4:36 AM on November 12, 2022
posted by mhoye at 4:36 AM on November 12, 2022
deep cut? perforate, not slash!
posted by lalochezia at 5:19 AM on November 12, 2022
posted by lalochezia at 5:19 AM on November 12, 2022
It'll be glorious when attacker start double spending bitcoin, bonus point if they use BGP attacks, not just the MEV that'll inevitably kill bitcoin.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:21 AM on November 12, 2022
posted by jeffburdges at 5:21 AM on November 12, 2022
It'll be glorious when attacker start double spending bitcoin, bonus point if they use BGP attacks, not just the MEV that'll inevitably kill bitcoin.
Due to a strong community consensus and ongoing mining hardware energy efficiency improvements it's now practically impossible for an attacker, even a superpower level attacker, to wield the kind of hashrate required to pull off a successful doublespend attack on Bitcoin. Other projects are vulnerable because their hashrate is comparatively minuscule and their communities are weak.
If you want to understand the mindset of someone who believes in Bitcoin, you need to zoom out.
posted by neonamber at 2:53 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Due to a strong community consensus and ongoing mining hardware energy efficiency improvements it's now practically impossible for an attacker, even a superpower level attacker, to wield the kind of hashrate required to pull off a successful doublespend attack on Bitcoin. Other projects are vulnerable because their hashrate is comparatively minuscule and their communities are weak.
If you want to understand the mindset of someone who believes in Bitcoin, you need to zoom out.
posted by neonamber at 2:53 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
You're arguing bitcoin won't be double spent because bitcoin is already "proof-of-stake", just with an evil proof-of-waste layer on top.
The point is bitcoin got its economics wrong, so bitcoin will eventually be double spent, no matter the hash rate or hardware. It's true of course that mining company practices can delay this, but it wont last since corruption is much of the "stake" in bitcoin.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:48 AM on November 13, 2022
The point is bitcoin got its economics wrong, so bitcoin will eventually be double spent, no matter the hash rate or hardware. It's true of course that mining company practices can delay this, but it wont last since corruption is much of the "stake" in bitcoin.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:48 AM on November 13, 2022
just with an evil proof-of-waste layer on top.
But it's not a waste if the work is performing a function that people use and value.
If emissions are the problem then ban them. Bitcoin will keep ticking on whatever the grid uses.
The point is bitcoin got its economics wrong
The competition has had plenty of time to dethrone Bitcoin with superior monetary policy but they all still live in it's shadow.
I would say the opposite is true; Bitcoin got the economics right and people are starting to understand the planet only needs one blockchain. Altcoins are the superfluous and wasteful thing here, nothing they do can't be replicated as a L2+ service upon Bitcoin while benefiting from it's scale and security.
If you're rocking a long term perspective on then current circumstance is just a buying opportunity.
posted by neonamber at 6:38 AM on November 13, 2022
But it's not a waste if the work is performing a function that people use and value.
If emissions are the problem then ban them. Bitcoin will keep ticking on whatever the grid uses.
The point is bitcoin got its economics wrong
The competition has had plenty of time to dethrone Bitcoin with superior monetary policy but they all still live in it's shadow.
I would say the opposite is true; Bitcoin got the economics right and people are starting to understand the planet only needs one blockchain. Altcoins are the superfluous and wasteful thing here, nothing they do can't be replicated as a L2+ service upon Bitcoin while benefiting from it's scale and security.
If you're rocking a long term perspective on then current circumstance is just a buying opportunity.
posted by neonamber at 6:38 AM on November 13, 2022
neonamber: The competition has had plenty of time to dethrone Bitcoin with superior monetary policy but they all still live in it's shadow.
The competition is regular currency, and virtually all buying and selling of stuff still happens with regular currency...?
(And a flexible monetary policy as opposed to Bitcoin's deterministic is one small part of the reason for that...?)
posted by clawsoon at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
The competition is regular currency, and virtually all buying and selling of stuff still happens with regular currency...?
(And a flexible monetary policy as opposed to Bitcoin's deterministic is one small part of the reason for that...?)
posted by clawsoon at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Proof-of-work does not perform any socially useful function. As soon as you make any proof-of-stake-like argument about miner behavior, then you could massively improve security by replacing the whole network by a dozen Raspberry Pis running a real byzantine agreement protocol, each run by distinct publicly known guys, so like how Tor handles their consensus. And proof-of-work itself is clearly insecure if you do not make this proof-of-stake-like case.
I meant, and linked, that bitcoins' particular flavor of deflation shall eventually break their consensus. It's a formal proof about their consensus protocol within its own threat model and economics, so competition talk is irrelevant deflection. As a practical matter, I think bitcoin being double spent is only a few halvings away for many reasons, but this depends upon many real world unknowns, including miner behavior. All this could easily be fixed by replacing each mining pool with a Raspberry Pi of course.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:11 AM on November 13, 2022
I meant, and linked, that bitcoins' particular flavor of deflation shall eventually break their consensus. It's a formal proof about their consensus protocol within its own threat model and economics, so competition talk is irrelevant deflection. As a practical matter, I think bitcoin being double spent is only a few halvings away for many reasons, but this depends upon many real world unknowns, including miner behavior. All this could easily be fixed by replacing each mining pool with a Raspberry Pi of course.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:11 AM on November 13, 2022
...then you could massively improve security by replacing the whole network by a dozen Raspberry Pis running a real byzantine agreement protocol...
Bitcoin is built around not needing to trust particular individuals. Your proposal would only increase security if these dozen could be trusted completely. It's never going to happen.
I meant, and linked, that bitcoins' particular flavor of deflation shall eventually break their consensus.
The paper is based on assumptions that do not hold true to reality. Eg: "We also assume that miners always have space to include all available transactions." There is almost always a bunch of transactions waiting to be included in the next block. Their conclusion is weak and Bitcoin Core contributors have implmenented additional mechanisms to further mitigate this risk. This argument is a nothing burger.
posted by neonamber at 5:57 PM on November 13, 2022
Bitcoin is built around not needing to trust particular individuals. Your proposal would only increase security if these dozen could be trusted completely. It's never going to happen.
I meant, and linked, that bitcoins' particular flavor of deflation shall eventually break their consensus.
The paper is based on assumptions that do not hold true to reality. Eg: "We also assume that miners always have space to include all available transactions." There is almost always a bunch of transactions waiting to be included in the next block. Their conclusion is weak and Bitcoin Core contributors have implmenented additional mechanisms to further mitigate this risk. This argument is a nothing burger.
posted by neonamber at 5:57 PM on November 13, 2022
Bitcoin is built around not needing to trust particular individuals. Your proposal would only increase security if these dozen could be trusted completely. It's never going to happen.
I truly don’t give a shit what those paranoid libertarians think. Grow the fuck up and stop wasting energy on this bull shit. If they won’t agree let’s make them agree by whatever means necessary.
The fact that the only problem with this proposal is trust not bandwidth/cpu power also demonstrate clearly how fucking moronic blockchains are.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:07 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I truly don’t give a shit what those paranoid libertarians think. Grow the fuck up and stop wasting energy on this bull shit. If they won’t agree let’s make them agree by whatever means necessary.
The fact that the only problem with this proposal is trust not bandwidth/cpu power also demonstrate clearly how fucking moronic blockchains are.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:07 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Grow the fuck up and stop wasting energy on this bull shit.
Hey, be nice please.
If 100million+ people are using this then it's not a waste, it's just yet another human activity with an energy footprint. Mining is useful work performed to ensure Bitcoin is secure and available to everyone.
I agree we need to fix our grid emissions but fixating on how individuals choose to utilize the electrical power they have lawfully purchased is a distraction. Tax carbon emissions through the nose or outright ban them if that's actually what you care about.
The fact that the only problem with this proposal is trust not bandwidth/cpu power also demonstrate clearly how fucking moronic blockchains are.
An abuse of trust is how we got here. People are increasingly hesitant to trust the inflationary, growth addicted monetary policy implemented by central banks. Inflation disproportionately impacts those on the bottom rungs of the economic ladder while helping to further enrich those at the top who are asset rich.
posted by neonamber at 6:44 PM on November 13, 2022
Hey, be nice please.
If 100million+ people are using this then it's not a waste, it's just yet another human activity with an energy footprint. Mining is useful work performed to ensure Bitcoin is secure and available to everyone.
I agree we need to fix our grid emissions but fixating on how individuals choose to utilize the electrical power they have lawfully purchased is a distraction. Tax carbon emissions through the nose or outright ban them if that's actually what you care about.
The fact that the only problem with this proposal is trust not bandwidth/cpu power also demonstrate clearly how fucking moronic blockchains are.
An abuse of trust is how we got here. People are increasingly hesitant to trust the inflationary, growth addicted monetary policy implemented by central banks. Inflation disproportionately impacts those on the bottom rungs of the economic ladder while helping to further enrich those at the top who are asset rich.
posted by neonamber at 6:44 PM on November 13, 2022
My experience has been that the cryptocurrency community at large as well as the BTC world are quite growth-addicted as well. And other than 2-3 dozen people who got remarkably lucky, BTC is very effective at further enriching those at the top who are asset rich. In fact, the two go hand in hand.
If these spaces were not growth addicted, someone running an exchange might not feel the need to spend their customers money and lie about where it is, or guarantee a ludicrous interest rate based on speculation. When an exchange or an entire coin fails, the money real and fake alike either disappears or goes to the rich. Weirdly, it never seems to make it back downstream...
Can't find it right now, but I'd link the several hundred pages of letters from people that lost everything to Terra/Luna (Yeah, I know, not the same chain, barely the same protocol. Same people though.)
I will leave this, which is more relevant:
Are Blockchains Decentralized?
Unintended Centralities in Distributed Ledgers
posted by shenkerism at 7:22 PM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
If these spaces were not growth addicted, someone running an exchange might not feel the need to spend their customers money and lie about where it is, or guarantee a ludicrous interest rate based on speculation. When an exchange or an entire coin fails, the money real and fake alike either disappears or goes to the rich. Weirdly, it never seems to make it back downstream...
Can't find it right now, but I'd link the several hundred pages of letters from people that lost everything to Terra/Luna (Yeah, I know, not the same chain, barely the same protocol. Same people though.)
I will leave this, which is more relevant:
Are Blockchains Decentralized?
Unintended Centralities in Distributed Ledgers
posted by shenkerism at 7:22 PM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trail of Bits concluded "Bitcoin’s Nakamoto coefficient is four", but then they describe serious but basic network level attacks, which de facto lower this number. Advanced network level attacks exist too. And halvings shall keep lowering this number.
Also, safety and liveness are both 50% in bitcoin. Trail of bits compares this with 1/3rd liveness attacks on real byzantine agreement protocols, but you need a 2/3rd safety attacks to double spend in many/most of those.
> Bitcoin is built around not needing to trust particular individuals.
This is false. All these protocols' security rests upon trusting individuals, but they have an economic layer to select the individuals they trust, but which is broken in bitcoin.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:44 PM on November 13, 2022
Also, safety and liveness are both 50% in bitcoin. Trail of bits compares this with 1/3rd liveness attacks on real byzantine agreement protocols, but you need a 2/3rd safety attacks to double spend in many/most of those.
> Bitcoin is built around not needing to trust particular individuals.
This is false. All these protocols' security rests upon trusting individuals, but they have an economic layer to select the individuals they trust, but which is broken in bitcoin.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:44 PM on November 13, 2022
My experience has been that the cryptocurrency community at large as well as the BTC world are quite growth-addicted as well.
Bitcoin has an algorithmically controlled monetary growth rate(issuance) that is decreasing with time and less than almost every fiat currency in existence.
Multiple metrics also indicate Bitcoin is becoming more decentralised with time.
Trail of Bits concluded "Bitcoin’s Nakamoto coefficient is four", but then they describe serious but basic network level attacks, which de facto lower this number. Advanced network level attacks exist too. And halvings shall keep lowering this number.
Yeah, I'm sure these attacks are totally possible and no efforts have been made to mitigate them. Any day now!
posted by neonamber at 11:10 PM on November 13, 2022
Bitcoin has an algorithmically controlled monetary growth rate(issuance) that is decreasing with time and less than almost every fiat currency in existence.
Multiple metrics also indicate Bitcoin is becoming more decentralised with time.
Trail of Bits concluded "Bitcoin’s Nakamoto coefficient is four", but then they describe serious but basic network level attacks, which de facto lower this number. Advanced network level attacks exist too. And halvings shall keep lowering this number.
Yeah, I'm sure these attacks are totally possible and no efforts have been made to mitigate them. Any day now!
posted by neonamber at 11:10 PM on November 13, 2022
Trail of Bits concluded "Bitcoin’s Nakamoto coefficient is four", but then they describe serious but basic network level attacks, which de facto lower this number. Advanced network level attacks exist too. And halvings shall keep lowering this number.
Also, the Trail of Bits study is full of mistakes and has been debunked. I wouldn't cite that if you want to look credible.
posted by neonamber at 11:21 PM on November 13, 2022
Also, the Trail of Bits study is full of mistakes and has been debunked. I wouldn't cite that if you want to look credible.
posted by neonamber at 11:21 PM on November 13, 2022
I only see minor quibbles being puffed up by a ponzi salesmen there.
There is only one relevant graph in the coinmetrics.io post, which yes claims Binance and OKEx brought some diversification, but even still the trend looks worsening relative to the underlying economic break. Also BTC.com, AntPool, and ViaBTC are all BitMain controlled, but maybe distinct from an external hacker vantage.
Anyways, all arguments you've made here amount to platitudes and deflection, like every other conversation I've had with bitcoiners in recent years. It's bullshit all the way down at this point.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:41 AM on November 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
There is only one relevant graph in the coinmetrics.io post, which yes claims Binance and OKEx brought some diversification, but even still the trend looks worsening relative to the underlying economic break. Also BTC.com, AntPool, and ViaBTC are all BitMain controlled, but maybe distinct from an external hacker vantage.
Anyways, all arguments you've made here amount to platitudes and deflection, like every other conversation I've had with bitcoiners in recent years. It's bullshit all the way down at this point.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:41 AM on November 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I only see minor quibbles being puffed up by a ponzi salesmen there.
You're doing that thing again where you argue in bad faith and make outlandish emotive mischaracterizations.
They aren't minor quibbles, they are verifiable errorS big enough to discredit the entire conclusion.
There is only one relevant graph in the coinmetrics.io post, which yes claims Binance and OKEx brought some diversification, but even still the trend looks worsening relative to the underlying economic break. Also BTC.com, AntPool, and ViaBTC are all BitMain controlled, but maybe distinct from an external hacker vantage.
Again, this isn't the gotcha you think it is. The mining pools are ultimately comprised of numerous mining operations controlled by individuals who can, and do, chop and change their mining pool at a moments notice. This industry is highly incentivized to maintain decentralization and have history of using consensus to thwart adversarial efforts.
Your feelings are very entwined with certain beliefs about Bitcoin that may, in fact, be readily debatable and even falsifiable. Pointing this out is not bullshit.
posted by neonamber at 1:57 AM on November 14, 2022
You're doing that thing again where you argue in bad faith and make outlandish emotive mischaracterizations.
They aren't minor quibbles, they are verifiable errorS big enough to discredit the entire conclusion.
There is only one relevant graph in the coinmetrics.io post, which yes claims Binance and OKEx brought some diversification, but even still the trend looks worsening relative to the underlying economic break. Also BTC.com, AntPool, and ViaBTC are all BitMain controlled, but maybe distinct from an external hacker vantage.
Again, this isn't the gotcha you think it is. The mining pools are ultimately comprised of numerous mining operations controlled by individuals who can, and do, chop and change their mining pool at a moments notice. This industry is highly incentivized to maintain decentralization and have history of using consensus to thwart adversarial efforts.
Your feelings are very entwined with certain beliefs about Bitcoin that may, in fact, be readily debatable and even falsifiable. Pointing this out is not bullshit.
posted by neonamber at 1:57 AM on November 14, 2022
If 100million+ people are using this then it's not a waste, it's just yet another human activity with an energy footprint.
Taking into account how most of those 100 million people are using it, I'd say there are more efficient ways to produce gambling chips.
posted by clawsoon at 5:05 AM on November 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Taking into account how most of those 100 million people are using it, I'd say there are more efficient ways to produce gambling chips.
posted by clawsoon at 5:05 AM on November 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
If 100million+ people are using this then it's not a wasteIt could still be a waste, just as it’s wasteful to buy individual bottles of water even if people were in fact thirsty. The system uses far more energy per transaction than the real banking system and there’s no way around that.
It’s also relevant to note that the 100M claim is made by a company which profits from selling bitcoin, and has a clear financial stake pushing the “everyone is using it, you’re missing our!” narrative most of the cryptocurrency sales people prefer. Most other numbers are lower, and everyone is guessing how many wallets correspond to unique people. Given how many transactions are highly suspected of being bots, we’ll never know but the total number of daily transactions is low enough that we can safely say the active user count is much lower. A quarter of a million transactions a day is less than VISA does in a small city (their network alone processes Bitcoin’s maximum daily throughout every few seconds) and much of that volume is automatic, not reflecting a human actually making an economic transaction.
posted by adamsc at 6:31 AM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
...Bitcoin’s maximum daily throughout...
You're only telling half the story if you don't include Lightning transaction capacity. Unsurprisingly because including Lightning would ruin your argument about scaling problems. But sure, continue taking cheap shots about Bitcoin being inefficient while simultaneously ignoring important developments that have made it massively efficient.... ~sighhh~
posted by neonamber at 7:46 AM on November 14, 2022
You're only telling half the story if you don't include Lightning transaction capacity. Unsurprisingly because including Lightning would ruin your argument about scaling problems. But sure, continue taking cheap shots about Bitcoin being inefficient while simultaneously ignoring important developments that have made it massively efficient.... ~sighhh~
posted by neonamber at 7:46 AM on November 14, 2022
Why is anyone taking this gish gallop seriously? Because that's all it is, as usual with this particular user. Nothing is going to change their mind, because they are a true believer.
There is no useful nor ethical use of cryptocurrency.
posted by a faithful sock at 7:55 AM on November 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
There is no useful nor ethical use of cryptocurrency.
posted by a faithful sock at 7:55 AM on November 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Why is anyone taking this gish gallop seriously?
I use this tech and have made an effort to understand it. Most of my comments have been made to address specific falsehoods being spread. I suppose I am a true believer but it's a belief grounded in experience. Would you prefer I didn't interrupt bah humbug parade with an actual user perspective? Close the hatch and enjoy the echos aye?
posted by neonamber at 8:10 AM on November 14, 2022
I use this tech and have made an effort to understand it. Most of my comments have been made to address specific falsehoods being spread. I suppose I am a true believer but it's a belief grounded in experience. Would you prefer I didn't interrupt bah humbug parade with an actual user perspective? Close the hatch and enjoy the echos aye?
posted by neonamber at 8:10 AM on November 14, 2022
Would you prefer I didn't interrupt bah humbug parade
A bit, yeah.
posted by notoriety public at 8:20 AM on November 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
A bit, yeah.
posted by notoriety public at 8:20 AM on November 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
You're only telling half the story if you don't include Lightning transaction capacity. Unsurprisingly because including Lightning would ruin your argument about scaling problems.No, I actually omitted it because those estimates aren’t based on Lightning activity but on-chain actions. Lightning does allow faster transaction processing but it does so by keeping those transactions off of the blockchain, which is where that 106 million user estimate was calculated.
As a bit of advice, you’re not the only one who is familiar with this technology. Many of us have been following it since the beginning so if you want to be persuasive I’d recommend including as much detail as you can. For example, in this case rather than attacking me imagine if you could point to a specific study and discuss its methodology.
posted by adamsc at 9:35 AM on November 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Close the hatch and enjoy the echos aye?
Indeed, the belief in oneself being the lonesome hero telling the Truth to sheeple is one of the more common self-delusions of this internet age.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 4:07 AM on November 15, 2022
Indeed, the belief in oneself being the lonesome hero telling the Truth to sheeple is one of the more common self-delusions of this internet age.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 4:07 AM on November 15, 2022
Ahh tech fantasies.. Satoshi Nakamoto is cryopreserved. lol
posted by jeffburdges at 5:54 AM on December 2, 2022
posted by jeffburdges at 5:54 AM on December 2, 2022
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posted by Aleyn at 10:58 AM on November 11, 2022 [1 favorite]