The Economic Secret Hidden in a Tiny, Discontinued Pasta
January 16, 2023 8:18 AM Subscribe
fta: "But if you wish to make a screw, you must first invent the universe."
someone's a sagan fan
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:08 AM on January 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
someone's a sagan fan
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:08 AM on January 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
more seriously, the ending of the article has a valid point--sometimes things require older knowledge that isn't available with newer technologies; the whole "on shoulders of giants" problem, when the giants age and fade and die
it's happening with manufacturing, as the article points out, but it's starting to happen with software, too.
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:11 AM on January 16, 2023 [32 favorites]
it's happening with manufacturing, as the article points out, but it's starting to happen with software, too.
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:11 AM on January 16, 2023 [32 favorites]
Coming soon: pasta in the shape of tiny little phone screws
posted by flabdablet at 9:13 AM on January 16, 2023 [81 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:13 AM on January 16, 2023 [81 favorites]
In retrospect it's kind of amazing that one of the earliest victims of MBA Thinking, long before that cognitive blight even had that name, was the bulk of the U.S. manufacturing sector. You can either understand Goodhart's Law or you can target shareholder value but you can't do both; you have to pick a side, and one of those sides is the first step down a death spiral.
This really feels more like a failure of will and imagination than some mathematical inevitability. Is it really so different from, say, making Cascatelli, or it just not going to be quite as profitable, so they just won't? This seems like the kind of market rationalization that uses dependency chains to rationalize creating dividends over creating customers, and we've all already learned what's at the end of that road.
posted by mhoye at 9:19 AM on January 16, 2023 [30 favorites]
This really feels more like a failure of will and imagination than some mathematical inevitability. Is it really so different from, say, making Cascatelli, or it just not going to be quite as profitable, so they just won't? This seems like the kind of market rationalization that uses dependency chains to rationalize creating dividends over creating customers, and we've all already learned what's at the end of that road.
posted by mhoye at 9:19 AM on January 16, 2023 [30 favorites]
It sounds like Late Capitalism is the culprit here. The Ronzoni brand is owned by a big conglomerate, but the manufacturing is contracted out to smaller firms. These smaller firms lack the access to the capital needed to retool their plants. The big conglomerate could easily afford it, but they have no incentive to invest in an outside company, when all the money they make could instead go to the CEO’s salary and stock buybacks.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 9:19 AM on January 16, 2023 [57 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 9:19 AM on January 16, 2023 [57 favorites]
it's happening with manufacturing, as the article points out, but it's starting to happen with software, too.
If you want a secure job in programming, learn COBOL and work for large financial corporations. That's not a language frequently learned these days, but is the basis for basically everything banking and those systems cannot be replaced, only maintained.
posted by hippybear at 9:28 AM on January 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
If you want a secure job in programming, learn COBOL and work for large financial corporations. That's not a language frequently learned these days, but is the basis for basically everything banking and those systems cannot be replaced, only maintained.
posted by hippybear at 9:28 AM on January 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
Whenever I see this type of decision I recognize 'Branch Plant Economics" in action. Simply put - it is not enough for a plant or product line to be profitable, it must be more profitable than if the same resources were put into another line or product.
For example, the Oreo plant here in Chicago made money. But more money could be made if manufacturing was shifted to Mexico. The impacts of closing a branch here or a branch over there a just a number on some MBA's power point presentation. So Mondelēz, nominally a Chicago company, closed the Chicago branch plant because money, but also because they aren't actually part of the community here.
posted by zenon at 9:42 AM on January 16, 2023 [31 favorites]
For example, the Oreo plant here in Chicago made money. But more money could be made if manufacturing was shifted to Mexico. The impacts of closing a branch here or a branch over there a just a number on some MBA's power point presentation. So Mondelēz, nominally a Chicago company, closed the Chicago branch plant because money, but also because they aren't actually part of the community here.
posted by zenon at 9:42 AM on January 16, 2023 [31 favorites]
it's not just machines that break down - morale, knowledge and communication have gone to hell in manufacturing - those who know often aren't listened to or valued because many of those who don't know just want to push the start button and not be bothered with anything else - management tends to think that things like this just take care of themselves, not that they would know about it anyway
i've heard the place i retired from is now running at less than 50% capacity because people haven't learned to run the printing presses to professional standards and management could no longer make people work on weekends because too many would quit
people talk about the boomer generation and what they've done to ruin things but the no 1 they failed to do is to preserve much of the knowledge and infrastructure that we relied on - (and i might add that others have failed to show the initiative necessary to learn)
posted by pyramid termite at 9:45 AM on January 16, 2023 [22 favorites]
i've heard the place i retired from is now running at less than 50% capacity because people haven't learned to run the printing presses to professional standards and management could no longer make people work on weekends because too many would quit
people talk about the boomer generation and what they've done to ruin things but the no 1 they failed to do is to preserve much of the knowledge and infrastructure that we relied on - (and i might add that others have failed to show the initiative necessary to learn)
posted by pyramid termite at 9:45 AM on January 16, 2023 [22 favorites]
There's a recent story I can't track down about a decades-old tool and die shop in NYC that closed down and — like a number of shops across the country — sold off its equipment to companies in China, which now perform the bulk of manufacturing for pennies on the dollar. If this pasta returns, I imagine it will be sourced from overseas.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:47 AM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:47 AM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
→
Has pay kept up with inflation? I think I know the answer to that one. Pay less, lose workers, lose knowledge, shut down.
posted by scruss at 9:49 AM on January 16, 2023 [28 favorites]
morale, knowledge and communication have gone to hell in manufacturing
Has pay kept up with inflation? I think I know the answer to that one. Pay less, lose workers, lose knowledge, shut down.
posted by scruss at 9:49 AM on January 16, 2023 [28 favorites]
The problem with learning 80s tech like Cobol or mainframes is that employers want to pay 80s wages, and expect modern development velocity. Whenever you hear “We can’t find people to hire” you can always add the unspoken “for what we’re willing to pay.”
posted by theclaw at 9:57 AM on January 16, 2023 [47 favorites]
posted by theclaw at 9:57 AM on January 16, 2023 [47 favorites]
management could no longer make people work on weekends because too many would quit
Management would no longer pay people enough to work on the weekends, you mean.
and i might add that others have failed to show the initiative necessary to learn
Again, if someone's not going to pay you commensurate with the time and effort required to learn, why would you bother? The idea of a "career" is sort of non-existent for many workers. Investing your effort in a company that's just going to dump you one day would be pointless or worse.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:59 AM on January 16, 2023 [33 favorites]
Management would no longer pay people enough to work on the weekends, you mean.
and i might add that others have failed to show the initiative necessary to learn
Again, if someone's not going to pay you commensurate with the time and effort required to learn, why would you bother? The idea of a "career" is sort of non-existent for many workers. Investing your effort in a company that's just going to dump you one day would be pointless or worse.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:59 AM on January 16, 2023 [33 favorites]
It sounds like Late Capitalism is the culprit here.
It sure does, but if you want a Jacobin take, you don't go to The Bulwark.
posted by box at 10:08 AM on January 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
It sure does, but if you want a Jacobin take, you don't go to The Bulwark.
posted by box at 10:08 AM on January 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
Capitalists gonna capitalize [not geoblocked link]
(my bet is on "clever marketing ploy" as mentioned in the article, if not before, then now)
posted by chavenet at 10:09 AM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
(my bet is on "clever marketing ploy" as mentioned in the article, if not before, then now)
posted by chavenet at 10:09 AM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
zenon: So Mondelēz, nominally a Chicago company, closed the Chicago branch plant because money, but also because they aren't actually part of the community here.
Being of the community is no guarantee that a company wouldn’t move a plant to a cheaper area/country for a quick buck, if Detroit or Flint is any indication.
posted by dr_dank at 10:18 AM on January 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Being of the community is no guarantee that a company wouldn’t move a plant to a cheaper area/country for a quick buck, if Detroit or Flint is any indication.
posted by dr_dank at 10:18 AM on January 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
you can always add the unspoken “for what we’re willing to pay.”
I had a fun dustup with some tool on Nextdoor about this (I'm in a high-cost area; our school crossing guards make $27/hr to start and I think it should be even more than that).
I'll spare everyone the tedious replay, but the winning blow as a variation of: "Welcome to capitalism! If you can't afford to pay the market rate, you don't have a small business, you have a hobby, and should conduct yourself accordingly."
posted by aramaic at 10:25 AM on January 16, 2023 [36 favorites]
I had a fun dustup with some tool on Nextdoor about this (I'm in a high-cost area; our school crossing guards make $27/hr to start and I think it should be even more than that).
I'll spare everyone the tedious replay, but the winning blow as a variation of: "Welcome to capitalism! If you can't afford to pay the market rate, you don't have a small business, you have a hobby, and should conduct yourself accordingly."
posted by aramaic at 10:25 AM on January 16, 2023 [36 favorites]
Previously in pasta-shape manufacture issues.
posted by jackbishop at 11:06 AM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jackbishop at 11:06 AM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you can't afford to pay the market rate, you don't have a small business, you have aFixed that for you.hobbyracket , and should conduct yourself accordingly."
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 11:38 AM on January 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
No discussion of the actual manufacturing process/supply chain? No attempt to discover the true manufacturer or competitors?
0 Stars.
posted by stobor at 11:40 AM on January 16, 2023 [19 favorites]
0 Stars.
posted by stobor at 11:40 AM on January 16, 2023 [19 favorites]
The problem with learning 80s tech like Cobol
Once the pain level gets high enough, the old code will be pared away. Also, AI.
(what if our cybernetic doom is the ACH COBOL AI going Skynet on us....God-Emperor Zelle)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:43 AM on January 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
Once the pain level gets high enough, the old code will be pared away. Also, AI.
(what if our cybernetic doom is the ACH COBOL AI going Skynet on us....God-Emperor Zelle)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:43 AM on January 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
Interesting post and discussion!
I have to wonder if this, as well as the lost abilities etc of manufacturing and a lot of other things that seem to be too expensive to do comes back in part to high property values/rents/cost of living. It used to be less expensive proportionally to live in terms of the money needed to buy or rent a house or other place to live (and granted the expectations were lower but now we have a situation where it has become extremely expensive to have anything to live in - anywhere). And of course the amount needed for energy has gone up, price of most everything has gone up. Health care is way more expensive; again proportionally to what most people make. There also seems to be a whole lot of manipulation and speculation going on regarding the prices of many simple things we have taken for granted, kind of like companies figured out a way to play with supply and raise prices enough that they could enjoy higher profits making less product. Auto business sure seems to have gone that way. Rents for sure.
There does not seem to be much data regarding what costs drive others; this does not seem to be something that is studied too deeply. This could be because there is not a whole lot of genuine interest into why things have gotten so expensive. TBF its also a terribly complex subject. Lots of people like to blame taxes, but taxes as a whole in the US are actually pretty low, to the point where we have been deferring maintenance on a lot of stuff, basic infrastructure like water systems and electric grids. Arguably we can't really even field a military consistent with the promise we have come to know for better than a century. Other things, generally necessities such as shelter, food, transportation of some kind, and energy to heat and cool are what I see as having driven costs out of range for innovation to be a possibility (unless you can make a killing on whatever you innovate, which explains the vast amounts of cash being put into tech, gig economy stuff such as Uber, short term rentals, etc... leading to the next couple of paragraphs). Capital has shifted into the hands of some pretty short sighted, vanity driven and egotistic characters pretty much everywhere, and they, not the government decide what gets invested in in may places now. And as long as they control capital, they get to call the shots.
This is all horribly complicated, but what I think in the end it comes down to is that people like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, with all their billions, don't care about making old things work. They care about new things, or trinkets that make them feel good (Twitter; Washington Post) but in the end, fail and do nothing to help the rest of us or make the society/economy any more sustainable. There is nothing really innovative about either of them, particularly Musk, who seems to be slowly turning into that villain from The Fifth Element. Bezos basically parlayed a mail order book operation into the recreation of the Sears and Roebuck mail order empire, using the internet, tax breaks, and third world manufacturing labor. Don't get me started about Peter Thiel.
Most of these rich folks think we are going to Mars or Dubai, or that the rest of us will be killed off or simply cease to matter, and that they will become the elite, with bots and AI doing what humans used to. Neither of them give two fcks about the ability to make something like pastina, or record players. If they really want them, they will pay to have it made for them bespoke, cost be damned.
posted by cybrcamper at 11:44 AM on January 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
I have to wonder if this, as well as the lost abilities etc of manufacturing and a lot of other things that seem to be too expensive to do comes back in part to high property values/rents/cost of living. It used to be less expensive proportionally to live in terms of the money needed to buy or rent a house or other place to live (and granted the expectations were lower but now we have a situation where it has become extremely expensive to have anything to live in - anywhere). And of course the amount needed for energy has gone up, price of most everything has gone up. Health care is way more expensive; again proportionally to what most people make. There also seems to be a whole lot of manipulation and speculation going on regarding the prices of many simple things we have taken for granted, kind of like companies figured out a way to play with supply and raise prices enough that they could enjoy higher profits making less product. Auto business sure seems to have gone that way. Rents for sure.
There does not seem to be much data regarding what costs drive others; this does not seem to be something that is studied too deeply. This could be because there is not a whole lot of genuine interest into why things have gotten so expensive. TBF its also a terribly complex subject. Lots of people like to blame taxes, but taxes as a whole in the US are actually pretty low, to the point where we have been deferring maintenance on a lot of stuff, basic infrastructure like water systems and electric grids. Arguably we can't really even field a military consistent with the promise we have come to know for better than a century. Other things, generally necessities such as shelter, food, transportation of some kind, and energy to heat and cool are what I see as having driven costs out of range for innovation to be a possibility (unless you can make a killing on whatever you innovate, which explains the vast amounts of cash being put into tech, gig economy stuff such as Uber, short term rentals, etc... leading to the next couple of paragraphs). Capital has shifted into the hands of some pretty short sighted, vanity driven and egotistic characters pretty much everywhere, and they, not the government decide what gets invested in in may places now. And as long as they control capital, they get to call the shots.
This is all horribly complicated, but what I think in the end it comes down to is that people like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, with all their billions, don't care about making old things work. They care about new things, or trinkets that make them feel good (Twitter; Washington Post) but in the end, fail and do nothing to help the rest of us or make the society/economy any more sustainable. There is nothing really innovative about either of them, particularly Musk, who seems to be slowly turning into that villain from The Fifth Element. Bezos basically parlayed a mail order book operation into the recreation of the Sears and Roebuck mail order empire, using the internet, tax breaks, and third world manufacturing labor. Don't get me started about Peter Thiel.
Most of these rich folks think we are going to Mars or Dubai, or that the rest of us will be killed off or simply cease to matter, and that they will become the elite, with bots and AI doing what humans used to. Neither of them give two fcks about the ability to make something like pastina, or record players. If they really want them, they will pay to have it made for them bespoke, cost be damned.
posted by cybrcamper at 11:44 AM on January 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
Read The Penultimate Truth, by Philip K Dick, the Dick book about Dick endgame, with a little hope thrown in somewhere, between Total Recall and prepper's dreams.
Then there is the guerilla marketing aspect, maybe Ronzoni is about to be sold off by by Post Holdings, (wikipedia doesn't offer up a link between Post Holdings and Ronzoni.)
posted by Oyéah at 12:10 PM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Then there is the guerilla marketing aspect, maybe Ronzoni is about to be sold off by by Post Holdings, (wikipedia doesn't offer up a link between Post Holdings and Ronzoni.)
posted by Oyéah at 12:10 PM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
This could be because there is not a whole lot of genuine interest into why things have gotten so expensive. TBF its also a terribly complex subject.
Is it really that complex, though? Under capitalism, the only resource that can combat entropy is money. Plenty of money exists, but it's locked away and hard to access, like petroleum in tar sands. So let's identify the largest deposits of money, extract it through whatever means we have available, and use that money to combat entropy. Problem solved.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:28 PM on January 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
Is it really that complex, though? Under capitalism, the only resource that can combat entropy is money. Plenty of money exists, but it's locked away and hard to access, like petroleum in tar sands. So let's identify the largest deposits of money, extract it through whatever means we have available, and use that money to combat entropy. Problem solved.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:28 PM on January 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
Remember how the pandemic taught a lot of us what "supply chain" was. I actually knew what "supply chain" was because I got an MBA for career switching reasons (a fact I'm reluctant to divulge on MeFi for obvious reasons). But if you want a very simple "explain to me like I'm 5" definition of what it is, supply chain basically means "making stuff and getting it from Point A to Point B."
The sad part is that making stuff that people wanted & getting that stuff from Point A to Point B is something that America used to do very well. If you were alive & aware in the 1980s, you probably remember all those news stories about how the Soviet system couldn't keep canned goods and basic necessities on the shelves in grocery stores. And you probably also remember how those grocery shortages were a powerful illustration and explanation about why the Soviet system collapsed shortly thereafter. Well, that's happening the right the fuck now in America.
My theory is that we made supply chains so efficient in order to maximize profits that we took all the resilience out of the system. As a result, the supply chain system has extremely brittle points of failure that are vulnerable to breaking if hit by a strong enough outside shock. All it took was a worldwide pandemic to give us a shock that was strong enough. The Bulwark article is right to point out deindustrialization & the hollowed out nature of the branding/licensing system as a culprit, but another major factor is that COVID death, long COVID, and workers who have withdrawn from labor market to care of family members ill with COVID means that our brittle supply chain system gets even less resilient, as there are fewer and fewer workers to support that system.
I can get where lefty accelerationists are coming from, because as our supply chain woes make perfectly clear, the wheels are coming off the bus of the American capitalism, especially if we're just focus on the mundane supply chain stuff. But to be honest, this scares me shitless, because when this system collapses in a heap, I'm not that optimistic that a utopia is what's going to get built on the ruins. There are just too many accelerationist, alt-right types who have been pregaming about how to take advantage of this.
I don't know if I have a solution is, but instead of "Make America Great Again," maybe we should have an anti-fascist, populist movement of "Make America Good Again." Make America morally good again (inclusive, anti-racist, less punitive), but also make America good again at the basic competence of getting shit from Point A to Point B.
posted by jonp72 at 12:54 PM on January 16, 2023 [51 favorites]
The sad part is that making stuff that people wanted & getting that stuff from Point A to Point B is something that America used to do very well. If you were alive & aware in the 1980s, you probably remember all those news stories about how the Soviet system couldn't keep canned goods and basic necessities on the shelves in grocery stores. And you probably also remember how those grocery shortages were a powerful illustration and explanation about why the Soviet system collapsed shortly thereafter. Well, that's happening the right the fuck now in America.
My theory is that we made supply chains so efficient in order to maximize profits that we took all the resilience out of the system. As a result, the supply chain system has extremely brittle points of failure that are vulnerable to breaking if hit by a strong enough outside shock. All it took was a worldwide pandemic to give us a shock that was strong enough. The Bulwark article is right to point out deindustrialization & the hollowed out nature of the branding/licensing system as a culprit, but another major factor is that COVID death, long COVID, and workers who have withdrawn from labor market to care of family members ill with COVID means that our brittle supply chain system gets even less resilient, as there are fewer and fewer workers to support that system.
I can get where lefty accelerationists are coming from, because as our supply chain woes make perfectly clear, the wheels are coming off the bus of the American capitalism, especially if we're just focus on the mundane supply chain stuff. But to be honest, this scares me shitless, because when this system collapses in a heap, I'm not that optimistic that a utopia is what's going to get built on the ruins. There are just too many accelerationist, alt-right types who have been pregaming about how to take advantage of this.
I don't know if I have a solution is, but instead of "Make America Great Again," maybe we should have an anti-fascist, populist movement of "Make America Good Again." Make America morally good again (inclusive, anti-racist, less punitive), but also make America good again at the basic competence of getting shit from Point A to Point B.
posted by jonp72 at 12:54 PM on January 16, 2023 [51 favorites]
Paul Krugman writes a lot of stuff that fits into this. Eg, that the Reaganite revolution changed anti-concentration laws, encouraging monopolies and financialization - leading to some of our housing crisis, as all the jobs are in a few cities, and we’re leaving housing to rot in places that *used* to have regional productive industries.
posted by clew at 1:01 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by clew at 1:01 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
stobor, I wonder if the actual factory could sell the teeny pasta at a suitable price if the middlemen were out. Need to reshape and rename it, and advertise it!, but that seems doable.
Until then, I will be seeking out Eduardo’s Pasta, a last survivor of SF’s Italian neighborhood and really, really tasty. So many eggs.
posted by clew at 1:04 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Until then, I will be seeking out Eduardo’s Pasta, a last survivor of SF’s Italian neighborhood and really, really tasty. So many eggs.
posted by clew at 1:04 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
This makes me thing of the fact that no one now knows how the original Polaroid 600 film was made because the vulture capitalists who bought the company about 15 years ago scrapped all of the manufacturing equipment and threw out all of the formulas. The current company called Polaroid are actually a bunch of hobbyist chemists who have done their best to reverse engineer the old emulsions but what they've come up is nothing like the old film.
posted by octothorpe at 1:13 PM on January 16, 2023 [30 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 1:13 PM on January 16, 2023 [30 favorites]
If you wish to make minestrone, you must first invent tiny pasta. You dump it in at the last minute. Anything that takes a while to cook through will become a soggy pulp as it soaks up the soup.
Macaroni will do - but you really want tiny pasta. The day the US can't make macaroni I suspect the headlines will be about the famine and civil unrest.
posted by adept256 at 1:29 PM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Macaroni will do - but you really want tiny pasta. The day the US can't make macaroni I suspect the headlines will be about the famine and civil unrest.
posted by adept256 at 1:29 PM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
About Polaroid, The Impossible Project actually HAD the original formula of chemicals (the founders had worked at Polaroid), but some were not allowed to be used anymore due to environmental issues and some former Polaroid suppliers stopped producing their components so TIP couldn't get hold of them anymore, that's why they had to develop everything from scratch.
Investors then bought up the original Polaroid business and also bought The Impossible Project and combined them back into one company.
posted by Lanark at 1:32 PM on January 16, 2023 [15 favorites]
Investors then bought up the original Polaroid business and also bought The Impossible Project and combined them back into one company.
posted by Lanark at 1:32 PM on January 16, 2023 [15 favorites]
The loss of old manufacturing processes and equipment is also happening with bowling balls. A few years back Brunswick Bowling bought the Ebonite (which included five different brands, equipment, shoes, accessories, etc etc). Brunswick then closed the entire factory in Hopkinsville KY, laid off the entire staff and destroyed all the equipment so that it couldn't be reclaimed or used by another bowling ball manufacturer. (You can actually see the old Ebonite factory on one of those how stuff works shows. It was pretty cool, I'd had the chance to tour it a few times.) Brunswick then moved all that production to their main facility in Reynosa, Mexico. Ironically, after Brunswick moved their factories to the maquiladoras, a startup called MOTIV bought their old equipment in Muskegon MI, and has been chipping away at marketshare ever since.
posted by slogger at 1:33 PM on January 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by slogger at 1:33 PM on January 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
Okay, there's a lot going on here, but I want to make clear that making an extrusion die for pasta is nothing like making a large injection mold for mass production. We have not, repeat not, lost pasta technology! There are new, local, American pasta startups, for fuck's sake! This isn't a deep research problem! This is brand wankery; they stopped selling the pasta because they didn't think they were making enough money selling the pasta; the end.
This is frustrating because there is a story to tell about what's been happening to American manufacturing, but we need to tell the actual story and not a just so spitballing version that aligns with what someone wants to believe. You know what's been ensuring that there is an actual domestic US manufacturing base that does excellent, cutting edge precision work? Military spending! I visited one of our suppliers once and was shown a handful of bolts that they'd made for a helicopter. That handful of bolts represented more business than they'd made dealing with our company in the prior two years. The story of how and why US manufacturing is getting along is complex and needs and deserves better coverage.
posted by phooky at 1:36 PM on January 16, 2023 [42 favorites]
This is frustrating because there is a story to tell about what's been happening to American manufacturing, but we need to tell the actual story and not a just so spitballing version that aligns with what someone wants to believe. You know what's been ensuring that there is an actual domestic US manufacturing base that does excellent, cutting edge precision work? Military spending! I visited one of our suppliers once and was shown a handful of bolts that they'd made for a helicopter. That handful of bolts represented more business than they'd made dealing with our company in the prior two years. The story of how and why US manufacturing is getting along is complex and needs and deserves better coverage.
posted by phooky at 1:36 PM on January 16, 2023 [42 favorites]
I know nothing about pasta manufacturing (haven't even homemade it). I imagine the issue with one specific variety becoming 'unprofitable' for a supplier is about negotiations between them.
Maybe the supplier is demanding a price increase and thinks vocal supporters will show Ronzini there's demand.
Maybe the supplier is out of floor space and would rather sell a higher-margin variety. Maybe there are specialized machines that are expensive to maintain. Maybe changeovers on the line are costly and they'd rather run a single shape all day.
Maybe pastina requires a different flour formulation or additive and the supplier of that is raising costs.
Middlemen add costs, but branding does work! The amount of effort to start a new brand, set a suitable price, and find shelf space is significant. Especially if those efforts damage your relationship with your customers.
The investigation into those topics would tell us a lot about what is actually going on, but that would take a lot more work than combining an apocryphal story about screws, a press release from a food company, and a misunderstanding of the economics of turntables into a short essay.
posted by stobor at 1:49 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Maybe the supplier is demanding a price increase and thinks vocal supporters will show Ronzini there's demand.
Maybe the supplier is out of floor space and would rather sell a higher-margin variety. Maybe there are specialized machines that are expensive to maintain. Maybe changeovers on the line are costly and they'd rather run a single shape all day.
Maybe pastina requires a different flour formulation or additive and the supplier of that is raising costs.
Middlemen add costs, but branding does work! The amount of effort to start a new brand, set a suitable price, and find shelf space is significant. Especially if those efforts damage your relationship with your customers.
The investigation into those topics would tell us a lot about what is actually going on, but that would take a lot more work than combining an apocryphal story about screws, a press release from a food company, and a misunderstanding of the economics of turntables into a short essay.
posted by stobor at 1:49 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not me—Barilla beats Ronzoni by a country mile traveled on a Roman road.
I have often been beaten to a comment by other mefites, but this may be the first time the actual FPP made the same comment I wanted to. And with more authority!
posted by TedW at 1:54 PM on January 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have often been beaten to a comment by other mefites, but this may be the first time the actual FPP made the same comment I wanted to. And with more authority!
posted by TedW at 1:54 PM on January 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't have any special insight to add, but this thread feels very much like the whole blind man and the elephant parable. I don't think the problems with manufacturing are reducible to any one or two problems but rather something systemic. Call it "late capitalism," sure, but that's a large enough label to be fundamentally useless; it feels like a thought-terminating cliché, something to wrap things up, rather than something that leads to any sort of useful insight or solution.
posted by Aleyn at 1:54 PM on January 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 1:54 PM on January 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
This genre of story always highlights the lost skills that actually still seem useful. Anyone lamenting the loss of answering machine repair people? CRT TV folks? VCR fixers?
No?
Then let me suggest it’s more about the Late Capitalism narrative that so many like to sell, as if we have insight enough into the future to tell what stage we're at.
posted by Galvanic at 1:55 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
No?
Then let me suggest it’s more about the Late Capitalism narrative that so many like to sell, as if we have insight enough into the future to tell what stage we're at.
posted by Galvanic at 1:55 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Low-tech clothes for the military are also required to be made in the US. The Berry Amendment of 1941:
posted by meowzilla at 1:56 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Under the terms of this Amendment, the Department of Defense (DoD) is not permitted to utilize appropriated funds to obtain yarns, fabrics, fibers, clothing, other textiles, food, hand or measuring tools not produced, grown, reprocessed, or reused in the United States.The cotton mill that Levis used to make 501 jeans also closed in 2017. The cotton for blue jeans, once the symbol of the United States - aren't being made here any more.
posted by meowzilla at 1:56 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
DeCecco makes pastina, too. Theirs is a peppercorn shape.
Orzo is a kind of pastina, though I've always heard it referred to as its own thing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:43 PM on January 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Orzo is a kind of pastina, though I've always heard it referred to as its own thing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:43 PM on January 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
There’s something profoundly humbling about this. For all of the wealth we enjoy today, and for all of the technological progress we’ve made, some things simply require good old-fashioned labor and specialized knowledge. And those things are increasingly elusive, even as we are increasingly affluent.
I don't know if I fully agree but that's the key quote I think.
posted by freethefeet at 3:02 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know if I fully agree but that's the key quote I think.
posted by freethefeet at 3:02 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
This issue is referred to (in my industry) as diminishing manufacturing sources (DMS). People are paid to deal with this all day long.
posted by yqxnflld at 3:07 PM on January 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by yqxnflld at 3:07 PM on January 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
As a result, the supply chain system has extremely brittle points of failure that are vulnerable to breaking if hit by a strong enough outside shock. All it took was a worldwide pandemic to give us a shock that was strong enough.
But the pandemic did not cause widespread supply chain failure, at least in the US. Widespread supply chain hassles and delays, yes. And an acute shortage of toilet paper on grocery store shelves. But overall I think the supply chain coped pretty ok-ish given the global impact of the pandemic.
posted by ryanrs at 3:09 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
But the pandemic did not cause widespread supply chain failure, at least in the US. Widespread supply chain hassles and delays, yes. And an acute shortage of toilet paper on grocery store shelves. But overall I think the supply chain coped pretty ok-ish given the global impact of the pandemic.
posted by ryanrs at 3:09 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Pagasa Pasta out of Mexico makes the tiny star pasta. I am looking at a bag of it as this thread rolls on. It is imported into the US and sold at Vallarta markets and Aldi, and plenty of other places, according to what I just read. Intermex foods, Grupo Pagasa.
posted by Oyéah at 3:13 PM on January 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 3:13 PM on January 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
My theory is that we made supply chains so efficient in order to maximize profits that we took all the resilience out of the system. As a result, the supply chain system has extremely brittle points of failure that are vulnerable to breaking if hit by a strong enough outside shock.
Yeeeeep.
So I grew up working in a family owned manufacturing business (of sorts) with very large volume textile screen printing. Mostly t-shirts, but all kinds of imprinted textiles in the general "sportswear" segment.
And right about the time NAFTA came into effect we were getting into EDI (Electronic Data Interchange) standards for ordering, sales and procurement and investigating ISO 9001 certifications and other "Just in Time" practices, which is all fine and good. On paper. Less waste, higher quality controls, more accountability and all that good stuff.
But even back then as a kid I remember becoming very, very alarmed about the prospects of outsourcing so many things, having global supply chains and what the end results would be when these EDI and JIT practices were stressed and shocked, and I'm no where near an MBA.
And sure enough we started having major supply chain issues even with stuff as relatively simple as the cotton mills and knitting/production companies moving south of the border to Mexico and what it would actually mean to production processes, profitability and resiliency if you kept shaving down those supply chains to the bare absolute minimums.
While less waste and money tied up in maintaining stock is - again, on paper - a good thing.
What ends up happening is a completely inelastic supply chain that relies heavily on a lot more moving parts working absolutely perfectly every time all the time with no external forces and shocks like, say, a natural disaster, or border/import issues, or labor disruptions, or... say, a pandemic.
It's metaphorically a lot like if you had some sort of continuous process like continuous web/roll paper printing or steel rolling that had no buffer or flexibility if things went wrong.
In something like a continuous roll printing system for, say, newspapers, if you don't have buffer loops that are mechanical devices where the continuous sheet of paper zig-zags between a bunch of spring loaded rollers doing nothing at all but acting as that mechanical buffer, when things like a break in the paper happen or you need to change rolls of paper, you can't and the whole line has to halt to make that repair or roll change happen, because there's no slack in that system.
With the buffer you have some known amount of time to repair the web of paper rolling through the press without stopping everything. In a large web printer there are usually a number of buffers at key points to give the rpess operators that slack time so the rest of the press can keep printing and moving and the whole thing doesn't shut down.
Or if you want another metaphor.. think about electronic skip protection in a CD player. Buffer enough CD data into some amount of RAM and the CD player has some amount of data to keep playing while the CD player itself recovers from a shock and then starts refilling the buffer by loading data slightly faster than real time CD player speeds.
Or even more simplistically? Shocks and suspension on a car, motorcycle or bicycle.
Take away those springs and slack in the system and it gets too rigid and fragile to pivot and adapt to the terrain.
posted by loquacious at 3:20 PM on January 16, 2023 [34 favorites]
Yeeeeep.
So I grew up working in a family owned manufacturing business (of sorts) with very large volume textile screen printing. Mostly t-shirts, but all kinds of imprinted textiles in the general "sportswear" segment.
And right about the time NAFTA came into effect we were getting into EDI (Electronic Data Interchange) standards for ordering, sales and procurement and investigating ISO 9001 certifications and other "Just in Time" practices, which is all fine and good. On paper. Less waste, higher quality controls, more accountability and all that good stuff.
But even back then as a kid I remember becoming very, very alarmed about the prospects of outsourcing so many things, having global supply chains and what the end results would be when these EDI and JIT practices were stressed and shocked, and I'm no where near an MBA.
And sure enough we started having major supply chain issues even with stuff as relatively simple as the cotton mills and knitting/production companies moving south of the border to Mexico and what it would actually mean to production processes, profitability and resiliency if you kept shaving down those supply chains to the bare absolute minimums.
While less waste and money tied up in maintaining stock is - again, on paper - a good thing.
What ends up happening is a completely inelastic supply chain that relies heavily on a lot more moving parts working absolutely perfectly every time all the time with no external forces and shocks like, say, a natural disaster, or border/import issues, or labor disruptions, or... say, a pandemic.
It's metaphorically a lot like if you had some sort of continuous process like continuous web/roll paper printing or steel rolling that had no buffer or flexibility if things went wrong.
In something like a continuous roll printing system for, say, newspapers, if you don't have buffer loops that are mechanical devices where the continuous sheet of paper zig-zags between a bunch of spring loaded rollers doing nothing at all but acting as that mechanical buffer, when things like a break in the paper happen or you need to change rolls of paper, you can't and the whole line has to halt to make that repair or roll change happen, because there's no slack in that system.
With the buffer you have some known amount of time to repair the web of paper rolling through the press without stopping everything. In a large web printer there are usually a number of buffers at key points to give the rpess operators that slack time so the rest of the press can keep printing and moving and the whole thing doesn't shut down.
Or if you want another metaphor.. think about electronic skip protection in a CD player. Buffer enough CD data into some amount of RAM and the CD player has some amount of data to keep playing while the CD player itself recovers from a shock and then starts refilling the buffer by loading data slightly faster than real time CD player speeds.
Or even more simplistically? Shocks and suspension on a car, motorcycle or bicycle.
Take away those springs and slack in the system and it gets too rigid and fragile to pivot and adapt to the terrain.
posted by loquacious at 3:20 PM on January 16, 2023 [34 favorites]
The warehouse where I was working was having a very simple supply chain problem even before the pandemic -- Corporate decided to start nickel and dimeing the drivers who brought our freight to the inland Northwest from Phoenix to the point that loads were simply not able to be brokered to any carrier. It was truly one of those "nobody is willing to work... for what you're willing to pay" scenarios, and for a period of time we were missing one out of every three or four truckloads which was resulting in supply shortages in the warehouse and causing our customers to go to our competitor for their supplies.
It's amazing how long it took corporate to figure out why we were losing sales.
posted by hippybear at 3:28 PM on January 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
It's amazing how long it took corporate to figure out why we were losing sales.
posted by hippybear at 3:28 PM on January 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
I found the section on the Technics re-issue to be a bit disigenuous. The author mentions the price going up when the new edition of the turntable (a version of which I own) was brought back to market, because the old molds originally used to manufacture it had worn out, and had to be recreated - and that this process was more expensive than it had been in the past.
The following conclusion is not supported by the article:
It’s worth emphasizing that the key issue here was not obtaining any precision electronic components (the primary issue facing anybody attempting to make high-quality cassette players these days), but rather the basic metalworking involved in casting various parts. The barrier, in other words, was not complex, but simple—one that the industry had vaulted over already decades before, but discovered it could not jump so easily again, given the degradation of its shoes, the track, and the stadium in the intervening years.
There's no barrier here involving lost knowledge or skillsets. The only barrier is that metalworking is more expensive now than it was in the 1970s when the original molds were created, and that cost is being passed on to the customer. There's nothing to 'vault over' here, and it's no fault of Technics that inflation makes things more expensive. In an industrial process, tools and dies wear out, and reinvesting in them is always horrendously expensive.
That entire section should have been cut from the article.
posted by jordantwodelta at 3:36 PM on January 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
The following conclusion is not supported by the article:
It’s worth emphasizing that the key issue here was not obtaining any precision electronic components (the primary issue facing anybody attempting to make high-quality cassette players these days), but rather the basic metalworking involved in casting various parts. The barrier, in other words, was not complex, but simple—one that the industry had vaulted over already decades before, but discovered it could not jump so easily again, given the degradation of its shoes, the track, and the stadium in the intervening years.
There's no barrier here involving lost knowledge or skillsets. The only barrier is that metalworking is more expensive now than it was in the 1970s when the original molds were created, and that cost is being passed on to the customer. There's nothing to 'vault over' here, and it's no fault of Technics that inflation makes things more expensive. In an industrial process, tools and dies wear out, and reinvesting in them is always horrendously expensive.
That entire section should have been cut from the article.
posted by jordantwodelta at 3:36 PM on January 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is like a fusilli inside a penne inside a rigatoni of a riddle.
posted by y2karl at 3:36 PM on January 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 3:36 PM on January 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
This seems like, frankly, a load of bullshit and vague handwaving. What is the actual reason that this pasta shape isn't being made any more? The author has no idea, but he is all too happy to spin some yarn about manufacturing and tool and die capacity and connect it to other issues that seem largely unconnected (Apple claims they had some problem getting tiny specialized screws in the US which was held up as an example of why they decided not to continue manufacturing in the US, which they never really wanted to do anyways, not the actual reason and Technics threw out all their tooling for making turntables and then had to make it again at great cost with far lower sales volume to pay for it).
posted by ssg at 4:11 PM on January 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by ssg at 4:11 PM on January 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
The mice have been allowed to eat away at the foundation. Quick! Move out before the building collapses on you!
Oh wait. That building is modern civilization.
posted by allium cepa at 5:24 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh wait. That building is modern civilization.
posted by allium cepa at 5:24 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
The problem with learning 80s tech like Cobol or mainframes is that employers want to pay 80s wages, and expect modern development velocity.
The issue isn't that employers aren't willing to pay for skilled people, at least with this specific example. Last I checked (pre-pandemic) there were plenty of listings offering $150,000 a year. That's good money unless you're FAANG bait. The bigger issue is that nobody wants to get into it because it is seen as a dead end. That was true 25 years ago when I was looking at the low 6 figure salaries of the time and remains true today. The banks are always talking about their big plans to move to something new. Why take the risk that they might mean it this time when you've got other options?
That said, they do have the option of paying enough that people could save fuck you money in a few short years and probably get a lot more takers. They don't because they always have enough people even if they're never sure about the depth of the bench.
posted by wierdo at 6:34 PM on January 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
The issue isn't that employers aren't willing to pay for skilled people, at least with this specific example. Last I checked (pre-pandemic) there were plenty of listings offering $150,000 a year. That's good money unless you're FAANG bait. The bigger issue is that nobody wants to get into it because it is seen as a dead end. That was true 25 years ago when I was looking at the low 6 figure salaries of the time and remains true today. The banks are always talking about their big plans to move to something new. Why take the risk that they might mean it this time when you've got other options?
That said, they do have the option of paying enough that people could save fuck you money in a few short years and probably get a lot more takers. They don't because they always have enough people even if they're never sure about the depth of the bench.
posted by wierdo at 6:34 PM on January 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
Okay, there's a lot going on here, but I want to make clear that making an extrusion die for pasta is nothing like making a large injection mold for mass production.
This! Like, I've made an extrusion die to fit on hand crank meat grinder with nothing but a hand held electric drill and some files. This is not heavy hidden knowledge technology. Obviously feeding the die would require some machinery as would preparing the dough and packaging at the end but none of that is particularly difficult especially for such a simple shape.
posted by Mitheral at 6:37 PM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
This! Like, I've made an extrusion die to fit on hand crank meat grinder with nothing but a hand held electric drill and some files. This is not heavy hidden knowledge technology. Obviously feeding the die would require some machinery as would preparing the dough and packaging at the end but none of that is particularly difficult especially for such a simple shape.
posted by Mitheral at 6:37 PM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
an extrusion die to fit on hand crank meat grinder
Now I’m hungry for tiny stars of pork
posted by staggernation at 6:41 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Now I’m hungry for tiny stars of pork
posted by staggernation at 6:41 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Adam Ragusea's bit on pasta dies.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 PM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 PM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Galvanic: This genre of story always highlights the lost skills that actually still seem useful. Anyone lamenting the loss of answering machine repair people? CRT TV folks? VCR fixers?
I’m sure there are a few graduates of the Sally Struthers International Correspondence School out there, waiting for a desperate call to fix a faulty capstan on a 1991 Goldstar VCR.
posted by dr_dank at 8:15 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m sure there are a few graduates of the Sally Struthers International Correspondence School out there, waiting for a desperate call to fix a faulty capstan on a 1991 Goldstar VCR.
posted by dr_dank at 8:15 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have a half-baked theory that global political power has followed machine tools around for the past couple of centuries.
It applies to this story somehow, I'm sure.
posted by clawsoon at 10:05 PM on January 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
It applies to this story somehow, I'm sure.
posted by clawsoon at 10:05 PM on January 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
The only barrier is that metalworking is more expensive now than it was in the 1970s when the original molds were created, and that cost is being passed on to the customer.
I really doubt that's true when you adjust for inflation. I've seen dies and injection molds that were made in the 70s on conventional machine tools. The complexity and precision is just mind boggling when you realize how many hours went into just the manufacturing of the actual dies and molds. Not to mention the design and prototype phases. In contrast, the ones I get today are made straight from an engineer's CAD files to CNC and EDM machines. A mold that used to be made like an extremely precise set of steel puzzle pieces is now a single piece of steel that would have been extremely expensive, if not impossible, to fabricate back in the day.
It doesn't surprise me at all that the reissue of a high end turntable ends up costing significantly more that it used to. As mentioned, tooling up is expensive, and the market is smaller, but most importantly, more dedicated and willing to pay a premium. At least that's what they're hoping.
There are instances of knowledge being lost. But for the most part, it's obsolete knowledge. The bigger annoyance is the millions of undocumented methods and practices that fall out of use when people move on, retire, or die. Documentation is a sneaky cost that can easily eat huge amounts of money if you're not careful, that goes unrewarded when a product meets end of production.
Manufacturing itself is still fairly strong in the US. But US based manufacturing strength lies in specialized, high value products, using fewer people than ever. Low cost consumer goods don't always fall into that category, and when they do, the jobs they provide tend to not be the low/unskilled kind of jobs they might have provided 50 years ago. Those kind of jobs didn't all disappear. They either got automated, or moved to places where it's more economical to employ people doing such work.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:03 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I really doubt that's true when you adjust for inflation. I've seen dies and injection molds that were made in the 70s on conventional machine tools. The complexity and precision is just mind boggling when you realize how many hours went into just the manufacturing of the actual dies and molds. Not to mention the design and prototype phases. In contrast, the ones I get today are made straight from an engineer's CAD files to CNC and EDM machines. A mold that used to be made like an extremely precise set of steel puzzle pieces is now a single piece of steel that would have been extremely expensive, if not impossible, to fabricate back in the day.
It doesn't surprise me at all that the reissue of a high end turntable ends up costing significantly more that it used to. As mentioned, tooling up is expensive, and the market is smaller, but most importantly, more dedicated and willing to pay a premium. At least that's what they're hoping.
There are instances of knowledge being lost. But for the most part, it's obsolete knowledge. The bigger annoyance is the millions of undocumented methods and practices that fall out of use when people move on, retire, or die. Documentation is a sneaky cost that can easily eat huge amounts of money if you're not careful, that goes unrewarded when a product meets end of production.
Manufacturing itself is still fairly strong in the US. But US based manufacturing strength lies in specialized, high value products, using fewer people than ever. Low cost consumer goods don't always fall into that category, and when they do, the jobs they provide tend to not be the low/unskilled kind of jobs they might have provided 50 years ago. Those kind of jobs didn't all disappear. They either got automated, or moved to places where it's more economical to employ people doing such work.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:03 PM on January 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Can't they just get some Play Doh Fun Factories?
Or have those been phased out for corporate profit?
posted by MtDewd at 4:21 AM on January 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Or have those been phased out for corporate profit?
posted by MtDewd at 4:21 AM on January 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am so glad I'm not the only one who hears "extrusion" and thinks "Play-doh."
posted by Mchelly at 6:48 AM on January 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 6:48 AM on January 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
My mind more immediately goes to dookie but I live with 5 dogs. As in "Oh no she's turned into the Fuzzy Pumper Barber Shop!"
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:17 AM on January 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:17 AM on January 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
You know what's been ensuring that there is an actual domestic US manufacturing base that does excellent, cutting edge precision work? Military spending!
There's a big push right now to bring back electronic component manufacturing to the US (I can't remember if it was part of the Build Back Better stuff or some other Biden administration program). There are two big reasons for this effort - first, cybersecurity concerns (it's difficult/impossible to identify tampering in ICs, especially if they're manufactured overseas where US government oversight can't reach); second, we're losing the knowledge to make certain specialized parts. The space industry needs radiation hardened electronics, and the number of manufacturers capable of making those parts has really dwindled down to almost nothing. You won't be getting to Mars or back to the Moon if an errant cosmic ray fries your guidance system.
posted by backseatpilot at 7:40 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's a big push right now to bring back electronic component manufacturing to the US (I can't remember if it was part of the Build Back Better stuff or some other Biden administration program). There are two big reasons for this effort - first, cybersecurity concerns (it's difficult/impossible to identify tampering in ICs, especially if they're manufactured overseas where US government oversight can't reach); second, we're losing the knowledge to make certain specialized parts. The space industry needs radiation hardened electronics, and the number of manufacturers capable of making those parts has really dwindled down to almost nothing. You won't be getting to Mars or back to the Moon if an errant cosmic ray fries your guidance system.
posted by backseatpilot at 7:40 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Fuzzy Pumper Barber Shop! That's what that thing was. My cousins had one back in the day, and I think a lot of its tactile qualities, and the way the "helmet hair" really looked to me how older ladies got it done.
Ha ha! Anyway, the manufacturing capacity of the nation is dying. It's funny how most SF writers didn't imagine the slow falling away of things in an otherwise mundane life. I was just visiting my grandparents, in what was otherwise a cheerful visit like any other: a road trip, lunch at a restaurant. They mentioned how they weren't getting their newspaper anymore because that paper comes out of nearby Jackson, Mississippi, where nobody will fix the damn water, and you can't print a paper or have employees in a building without running water. That has a lot to do with structural racism, as does the way that most of Jackson's money, business, and whiteness has deployed to neighboring white-flight municipalities. But it also has to do with aging infrastructure, absent maintenance, and the loss of expertise.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:09 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ha ha! Anyway, the manufacturing capacity of the nation is dying. It's funny how most SF writers didn't imagine the slow falling away of things in an otherwise mundane life. I was just visiting my grandparents, in what was otherwise a cheerful visit like any other: a road trip, lunch at a restaurant. They mentioned how they weren't getting their newspaper anymore because that paper comes out of nearby Jackson, Mississippi, where nobody will fix the damn water, and you can't print a paper or have employees in a building without running water. That has a lot to do with structural racism, as does the way that most of Jackson's money, business, and whiteness has deployed to neighboring white-flight municipalities. But it also has to do with aging infrastructure, absent maintenance, and the loss of expertise.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:09 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Dr_dank the drag of the ‘community’ connection is borne out by research and this can partially be explained by its strong correlation with regulatory capture. Of course there are other factors, like the parent company’s national biz culture, like for a Japanese or Chinese firm.
The whole idea of ‘Branch Plant’ economics was originally an answer to economic development problems in places like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland and Mexico. Back in the early period of globalization developing countries like S Korea or Indonesia had to make a decision about what portion of their economy would be branch plants of global companies vs protecting and fostering local companies vs some other model.
My introduction to it was in the lead up to NAFTA. It seems a bit quaint but at the time in Canada and Mexico there was a strong argument to reject the economics of the branch plant and its sibling the ‘resource curse’ (aka the oil curse). What surprised me was how quickly the US itself turned into a branch plant economy. Or how completely the UK would turn to financial services, it’s not even really a branch plant economy. In fact I would be surprised to see any further expansion of branch plants in the UK as a significant growth in their economy.
posted by zenon at 8:29 AM on January 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
The whole idea of ‘Branch Plant’ economics was originally an answer to economic development problems in places like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland and Mexico. Back in the early period of globalization developing countries like S Korea or Indonesia had to make a decision about what portion of their economy would be branch plants of global companies vs protecting and fostering local companies vs some other model.
My introduction to it was in the lead up to NAFTA. It seems a bit quaint but at the time in Canada and Mexico there was a strong argument to reject the economics of the branch plant and its sibling the ‘resource curse’ (aka the oil curse). What surprised me was how quickly the US itself turned into a branch plant economy. Or how completely the UK would turn to financial services, it’s not even really a branch plant economy. In fact I would be surprised to see any further expansion of branch plants in the UK as a significant growth in their economy.
posted by zenon at 8:29 AM on January 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe they ended it because Gerber Chicken and Stars for babies tasted better?
IMO, this article doesn't fly because we are the pinnacle of pasta-shaping, ie: you can have your mac & cheese in any popular kids tv show format, and they regularly change the shapes to match the latest shows. I'd even bet the factories have play-doh style removable molds/shapers..
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:30 AM on January 17, 2023
IMO, this article doesn't fly because we are the pinnacle of pasta-shaping, ie: you can have your mac & cheese in any popular kids tv show format, and they regularly change the shapes to match the latest shows. I'd even bet the factories have play-doh style removable molds/shapers..
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:30 AM on January 17, 2023
Anyway, the manufacturing capacity of the nation is dying
The United States is the second largest manufacturing country in the world and its manufacturing capacity is at just about its highest level ever. I realize that doesn't fit a lot of narratives, but it has the benefit of being accurate.
posted by Galvanic at 9:24 AM on January 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
The United States is the second largest manufacturing country in the world and its manufacturing capacity is at just about its highest level ever. I realize that doesn't fit a lot of narratives, but it has the benefit of being accurate.
posted by Galvanic at 9:24 AM on January 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
Coming out of WWII, the US was incredibly dominant in manufacturing, especially in precision machine tools, dies, and similar. But expecting that to continue forever is bizarre. Of course things balance out over time. This idea that the US should be an island, manufacturing everything domestically (but also having widely-available cheap consumer goods), is pure American exceptionalism.
During the industrial revolution, England was very much globally dominant in the same area - and then things changed, as they do.
posted by ssg at 10:45 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
During the industrial revolution, England was very much globally dominant in the same area - and then things changed, as they do.
posted by ssg at 10:45 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
then things changed, as they do
Making things is an important part of healthy economies, even pasta. More of the UK is suffering badly post-Brexit, as companies leave and things "balance out". There may be lessons learned from throwing away improvements in standard of living in the pursuit of profits overseas, as well as from the human costs of further concentrating wealth in the upper strata.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:24 AM on January 17, 2023
Making things is an important part of healthy economies, even pasta. More of the UK is suffering badly post-Brexit, as companies leave and things "balance out". There may be lessons learned from throwing away improvements in standard of living in the pursuit of profits overseas, as well as from the human costs of further concentrating wealth in the upper strata.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:24 AM on January 17, 2023
But the pandemic did not cause widespread supply chain failure, at least in the US.
I'm waiting months now for servers that shipped next day pre-pandemic. I have several projects that are on "no idea when" status because some network device companies are unable to give me a date when they will give me date when they are going to ship the kit we ordered. Hell...try to order a Rasberry Pi 4. If your only view of the supply chain is "there's stuff in the grocery store" maybe you think things went ok, but wow is that not reality for many of us.
Anyway, the manufacturing capacity of the nation is dying
The United States is the second largest manufacturing country in the world and its manufacturing capacity is at just about its highest level ever. I realize that doesn't fit a lot of narratives, but it has the benefit of being accurate.
My brother has, for the last 30 years or so, run a services company catering to the small to mid sized manufacturing sector. That was tough in the 90s, lemme tell you. He has more business, and more new companies needing his services, now than I think he has ever had. Fun stuff, like solar/green energy, as well as traditional manufacturing. And the retrenchment around "maybe having our biggest global competitor and rival make all our stuff is a bad idea" hasn't even begun to peak. So, yeah, facts are useful.
I got an MBA for career switching reasons (a fact I'm reluctant to divulge on MeFi for obvious reasons)
Very sad this place makes you feel that way, but I totally understand and it's why I visit rarely these days.
posted by kjs3 at 3:09 PM on January 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm waiting months now for servers that shipped next day pre-pandemic. I have several projects that are on "no idea when" status because some network device companies are unable to give me a date when they will give me date when they are going to ship the kit we ordered. Hell...try to order a Rasberry Pi 4. If your only view of the supply chain is "there's stuff in the grocery store" maybe you think things went ok, but wow is that not reality for many of us.
Anyway, the manufacturing capacity of the nation is dying
The United States is the second largest manufacturing country in the world and its manufacturing capacity is at just about its highest level ever. I realize that doesn't fit a lot of narratives, but it has the benefit of being accurate.
My brother has, for the last 30 years or so, run a services company catering to the small to mid sized manufacturing sector. That was tough in the 90s, lemme tell you. He has more business, and more new companies needing his services, now than I think he has ever had. Fun stuff, like solar/green energy, as well as traditional manufacturing. And the retrenchment around "maybe having our biggest global competitor and rival make all our stuff is a bad idea" hasn't even begun to peak. So, yeah, facts are useful.
I got an MBA for career switching reasons (a fact I'm reluctant to divulge on MeFi for obvious reasons)
Very sad this place makes you feel that way, but I totally understand and it's why I visit rarely these days.
posted by kjs3 at 3:09 PM on January 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
The on-demand, consumer society, fast fashion, strewed all over the Atacama, throw away goods, planned obsolescence, kill our world, along with many other schemes for keeping the wealthy, safe and healthy. Home Depot used to be full of great bins of cheap stuff on special, not any more. Stuff gets more expensive the more expensive fuel gets, finally there are no more deals. I saw a nice Porsche by the side of the highway, with a delaminated retread tire today. As I age, a lot of inventory I took for granted, is no longer produced. I keep stuff for as long as I can. We have to learn to live with less and make it a point of pride, rather than being prideful about our excess.
So, traditional foods are important, making new traditions is also important, adjusting to, relishing place, using locally grown and prepared foods, keeps prices down. I love blueberries, imagine them shipped one by one, each with it's own cargo ship, transferred to a refrigerated semi truck, and delivered by car, to your door, by a door dash driver.
Anyway those little star noodles are available out of Mexico, alongside the fentanyl. Maybe that is the root cause, no longer made this side of the border, must be shipped in with other goods, in neat little packages, with the foil wrapped bricks of coffee.
posted by Oyéah at 9:12 PM on January 17, 2023
So, traditional foods are important, making new traditions is also important, adjusting to, relishing place, using locally grown and prepared foods, keeps prices down. I love blueberries, imagine them shipped one by one, each with it's own cargo ship, transferred to a refrigerated semi truck, and delivered by car, to your door, by a door dash driver.
Anyway those little star noodles are available out of Mexico, alongside the fentanyl. Maybe that is the root cause, no longer made this side of the border, must be shipped in with other goods, in neat little packages, with the foil wrapped bricks of coffee.
posted by Oyéah at 9:12 PM on January 17, 2023
... you can have your mac & cheese in any popular kids tv show format, and they regularly change the shapes to match the latest shows.
Odd Squad or Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum, too?
posted by y2karl at 9:52 PM on January 17, 2023
Odd Squad or Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum, too?
posted by y2karl at 9:52 PM on January 17, 2023
You know what's been ensuring that there is an actual domestic US manufacturing base that does excellent, cutting edge precision work? Military spending!
So what I'm hearing is that we need to find a military application for pastina.
posted by jackbishop at 11:56 AM on January 18, 2023
So what I'm hearing is that we need to find a military application for pastina.
posted by jackbishop at 11:56 AM on January 18, 2023
Ninja throwing pasta
posted by Mchelly at 1:41 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Mchelly at 1:41 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sometimes it feels like the bean counters went all-in on a Maximum Profit moonshot, and we all bear the cost when the artificially imposed constraint that existing profit margins are never enough invisibly results in budgeting a used rubber band for an O-ring.
posted by allium cepa at 12:55 AM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by allium cepa at 12:55 AM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
It sounds like Late Capitalism is the culprit here. The Ronzoni brand is owned by a big conglomerate, but the manufacturing is contracted out to smaller firms. These smaller firms lack the access to the capital needed to retool their plants. The big conglomerate could easily afford it, but they have no incentive to invest in an outside company, when all the money they make could instead go to the CEO’s salary and stock buybacks.
I'm not a fan of the vague phrase "late capitalism" but if it means anything, then it means a highly financialised and atomised system where contract law and highly liquid finance stitch together supply chains between small companies. I.e. the opposite of this situation.
The mid 20th century was a time where access to capital was hard and that's why pasta might well have been made by a conglomerate since the size was needed in order to ensure sufficient internal capital resources. That certainly isn't true now. With an order in hand from a big brand / distributor like Ronzoni, any pasta factory can easily borrow money from banks or all kinds of other sources of capital in order to finance production improvements needed to fill those orders. If the CEO wants a higher salary then he's going to want to grow the metrics that the shareholders have used for setting his compensation which will be things like profit, so if these were profitable to sell and there was no other way of producing them... they would just invest the money to make them.
posted by atrazine at 3:04 AM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not a fan of the vague phrase "late capitalism" but if it means anything, then it means a highly financialised and atomised system where contract law and highly liquid finance stitch together supply chains between small companies. I.e. the opposite of this situation.
The mid 20th century was a time where access to capital was hard and that's why pasta might well have been made by a conglomerate since the size was needed in order to ensure sufficient internal capital resources. That certainly isn't true now. With an order in hand from a big brand / distributor like Ronzoni, any pasta factory can easily borrow money from banks or all kinds of other sources of capital in order to finance production improvements needed to fill those orders. If the CEO wants a higher salary then he's going to want to grow the metrics that the shareholders have used for setting his compensation which will be things like profit, so if these were profitable to sell and there was no other way of producing them... they would just invest the money to make them.
posted by atrazine at 3:04 AM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
With an order in hand from a big brand / distributor like Ronzoni, any pasta factory can easily borrow money from banks or all kinds of other sources of capital
Provided that Ronzoni is paying them large enough margins.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:53 AM on January 19, 2023
Provided that Ronzoni is paying them large enough margins.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:53 AM on January 19, 2023
"late capitalism"
Capitalism hasn't ended yet, so we have no idea if this is late, early, mid, sortofmid, or something else capitalism. "Late" capitalism seems more performative than anything else.
posted by Galvanic at 4:07 PM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Capitalism hasn't ended yet, so we have no idea if this is late, early, mid, sortofmid, or something else capitalism. "Late" capitalism seems more performative than anything else.
posted by Galvanic at 4:07 PM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think we're in undead capitalism at this stage.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:41 PM on January 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:41 PM on January 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Faint of Butt I really think that is an excellent way to describe it.
Reagan and the collapse of the USSR taught all the wrong lessons. Maybe it wasn't intentional but the massive fuckup post-collapse was helped along massively by all that shitty hard-right economic advice they got from the USA. No Marshall plan, just encouragement to pillage and hypercapitalise. The USA did not win the cold war - their system was just as fucked and just as wrong, they just managed to be the last ones standing.
But they believed their own bullshit. The average Soviet citizen was well aware that they were living in the middle of a reality distorting propaganda regime, and had a generally nihilistic outlook - at least to my mind that was more grounded in reality. Americans (not you of course) drank the Flavor Aid and actually believed that they were in the land of the free.
We've been living with the fallout from that ever since.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:07 PM on January 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Reagan and the collapse of the USSR taught all the wrong lessons. Maybe it wasn't intentional but the massive fuckup post-collapse was helped along massively by all that shitty hard-right economic advice they got from the USA. No Marshall plan, just encouragement to pillage and hypercapitalise. The USA did not win the cold war - their system was just as fucked and just as wrong, they just managed to be the last ones standing.
But they believed their own bullshit. The average Soviet citizen was well aware that they were living in the middle of a reality distorting propaganda regime, and had a generally nihilistic outlook - at least to my mind that was more grounded in reality. Americans (not you of course) drank the Flavor Aid and actually believed that they were in the land of the free.
We've been living with the fallout from that ever since.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:07 PM on January 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
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posted by uncleozzy at 9:02 AM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]