America's After-School Afterthought
February 26, 2023 7:37 AM Subscribe
The hours between school dismissal and the end of the workday are a mess. They don’t have to be. (SLVox)
I agree this is an enormous problem, that I believe is being ignored primarily because this considered a "woman issue" - even though of course it effects everyone, even those without children. I think the article was wrong though that California is doing a good job on after-care. Providing aftercare for 80 children in a city with nearly 100,000 children is demonstrating the problem, not the solution. The fact that for those 80 children they had to race to get oodles of funding from multiple places, is also part of the problem.
posted by Toddles at 8:27 AM on February 26, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 8:27 AM on February 26, 2023 [16 favorites]
This is why I was a latchkey kid growing up. It helped that my mom was a public school teacher and got back about an hour after I got home, and that my next door neighbor - a preschool teacher - was always keeping an eye out. I really liked that period of solitude - I watched MTV, did stuff on my computer (like learning to program), etc. It was surprisingly useful time for me.
That one time I came down with a fever at the end of the school day and walked home in a diseased haze, though, only to take my temperature and see 104 - that was rough.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:42 AM on February 26, 2023 [22 favorites]
That one time I came down with a fever at the end of the school day and walked home in a diseased haze, though, only to take my temperature and see 104 - that was rough.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:42 AM on February 26, 2023 [22 favorites]
This is the type of thing you would think would be a perfect way to make some part time money for a stay at home parent or similar, but the number of people who get by on only part time work without benefits doesn't make up a robust workforce.
grumpybear69, your story reminds me of something I just read in a book called The Design of Childhood - the author referred to a culture (Japan maybe?) where fairly young children can walk various places by themselves. The author argued that it is not independence that allows this, but expanded dependence - the parents know people in the neighborhood and on the route, and so as the child is out and about they are actually relying on a network of adults looking out for them.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:59 AM on February 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
grumpybear69, your story reminds me of something I just read in a book called The Design of Childhood - the author referred to a culture (Japan maybe?) where fairly young children can walk various places by themselves. The author argued that it is not independence that allows this, but expanded dependence - the parents know people in the neighborhood and on the route, and so as the child is out and about they are actually relying on a network of adults looking out for them.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:59 AM on February 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
I delayed seeking gainful employment because secure enough child care was a serious issue. Domestic violence survivors need more security than these places usually are able to offer. I’ll be frank, when my kids were little home schooling was not as feasible as it is now. I would have done it just to keep my kids safer.
Childcare is so costly, housing is too costly.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 9:05 AM on February 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Childcare is so costly, housing is too costly.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 9:05 AM on February 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
I feel so, so lucky that our 7 y/o's school has affordable childcare on site. It's very bare bones: they have a snack, do some homework (if they want), play board games or draw, and in the warm days go out to the playground. All age groups are in the same room. There are three awesome teachers, two of whom are guys.
It turned out to be fantastic for socialization, because it's so unstructured. They make friends of different ages they wouldn't otherwise meet. And its wonderful for elementary aged kids to have two very caring, hands-on male teachers. Kiddo actually told me recently that he thinks being at after-school cured his shyness and he wants to recommend it to any kid who feels shy <3 <3
It's not rocket science. After school doesn't have to be fancy or academic. Little kids are exhausted after school - they just want to hang out and play. It shouldn't be so hard or expensive to have a safe, easy-going place for them to chill with other kids and some goofy/responsible adults.
posted by EllaEm at 9:23 AM on February 26, 2023 [51 favorites]
It turned out to be fantastic for socialization, because it's so unstructured. They make friends of different ages they wouldn't otherwise meet. And its wonderful for elementary aged kids to have two very caring, hands-on male teachers. Kiddo actually told me recently that he thinks being at after-school cured his shyness and he wants to recommend it to any kid who feels shy <3 <3
It's not rocket science. After school doesn't have to be fancy or academic. Little kids are exhausted after school - they just want to hang out and play. It shouldn't be so hard or expensive to have a safe, easy-going place for them to chill with other kids and some goofy/responsible adults.
posted by EllaEm at 9:23 AM on February 26, 2023 [51 favorites]
“We have people who sign up for interviews and we call them and they never show up and we never hear from them again,” said Daniela Grigioni, the executive director of After-School All-Stars in Washington, DC. “They block us, ghost us, we don’t know what happened. [...] It’s very difficult.”As every job seeker who has ever applied for dozens of positions and never got so much as an email acknowledging their application can attest. I'm so tired of these articles quoting employers about how hard it is to attract people while simultaneously saying they pay peanuts for less than full time work with the implication that their labour woes are the workers fault.
posted by Mitheral at 9:27 AM on February 26, 2023 [54 favorites]
This is why I was a latchkey kid growing up.
With changing attitudes towards kids being unsupervised by adults, a bog-standard latchkey kid setup from the 1980s could easily turn into a CPS nightmare today. I don't know how working parents do it.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 9:30 AM on February 26, 2023 [18 favorites]
With changing attitudes towards kids being unsupervised by adults, a bog-standard latchkey kid setup from the 1980s could easily turn into a CPS nightmare today. I don't know how working parents do it.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 9:30 AM on February 26, 2023 [18 favorites]
They wonder where the workforce went? Most folks I know (outside of the urban mega-cores) have chosen to revert to one-earner households. Why bother when child care costs more than you can earn?
posted by metametamind at 9:37 AM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by metametamind at 9:37 AM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Another thing that seems to be a problem, at least in my neighborhood, is that school schedules are so hugely variable.
...at the elementary schools nearest me (I walk past two while doing errands, as I refuse to drive unless absolutely necessary), there seem to be four different release times PLUS everyone seems to get out early on Wednesday (but still different release times) AND near as I can tell the daycare places are often closed on the same days as the school?!?
I can't recall the last time I got Presidents' Day off work, but the kids definitely were off, and the daycare places I recognize were all closed as well.
So how is a standard-busy-adult supposed to arrange all of this in any coherent way and remain employed? And then the talking heads have the fucking gall to go on TV moaning about "missing workers"?
posted by aramaic at 9:52 AM on February 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
...at the elementary schools nearest me (I walk past two while doing errands, as I refuse to drive unless absolutely necessary), there seem to be four different release times PLUS everyone seems to get out early on Wednesday (but still different release times) AND near as I can tell the daycare places are often closed on the same days as the school?!?
I can't recall the last time I got Presidents' Day off work, but the kids definitely were off, and the daycare places I recognize were all closed as well.
So how is a standard-busy-adult supposed to arrange all of this in any coherent way and remain employed? And then the talking heads have the fucking gall to go on TV moaning about "missing workers"?
posted by aramaic at 9:52 AM on February 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
My brother did that math in like 1999 and his wife gave up her 9-5 as a programmer. We did it, too, and my wife stopped working when our second kid was born. The cost and the stress was just tooo far out of whack with what she made.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:53 AM on February 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 9:53 AM on February 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
They wonder where the workforce went? Most folks I know (outside of the urban mega-cores) have chosen to revert to one-earner households. Why bother when child care costs more than you can earn?
My brother did that math in like 1999 and his wife gave up her 9-5 as a programmer. We did it, too, and my wife stopped working when our second kid was born. The cost and the stress was just tooo far out of whack with what she made.
How the hell is this possible? 1:15 ratio, a third of the income to wages, a third to rent, a third to everything else. At this point is it viable for parents to partner together with towns to run childcare co-ops out of libraries?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:00 AM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
My brother did that math in like 1999 and his wife gave up her 9-5 as a programmer. We did it, too, and my wife stopped working when our second kid was born. The cost and the stress was just tooo far out of whack with what she made.
How the hell is this possible? 1:15 ratio, a third of the income to wages, a third to rent, a third to everything else. At this point is it viable for parents to partner together with towns to run childcare co-ops out of libraries?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:00 AM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
You know, it's still weird that schools end several hours before official 8-5 workdays end. Did no one think this through?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:04 AM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:04 AM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
My understanding is that in the olden days, letting kids out early was because they had to go home and do farm chores before dinner. Same reason we have a big weird summer vacation instead of a smaller vacation, year-round school system.
I've often wondered if it wouldn't make sense to make the school day 8:30-7 with big long play and lunch breaks in there plus some unstructured time for clubs and after school stuff. Functionally, we had kids that long anyway when I worked at a school that had before and after care (and by "care" I mean the expanded free breakfast program and me in the library keeping an eye on everyone.) That would at least align with most adults' work schedules, and kids need longer lunches and breaks anyway.
posted by blnkfrnk at 10:08 AM on February 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
I've often wondered if it wouldn't make sense to make the school day 8:30-7 with big long play and lunch breaks in there plus some unstructured time for clubs and after school stuff. Functionally, we had kids that long anyway when I worked at a school that had before and after care (and by "care" I mean the expanded free breakfast program and me in the library keeping an eye on everyone.) That would at least align with most adults' work schedules, and kids need longer lunches and breaks anyway.
posted by blnkfrnk at 10:08 AM on February 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, I know why we aren't doing it: you'd have to spend money on more teachers, aides, nutrition, and facilities. And nobody with any power gives a shit about kids. So it's a fixable problem but we're not going to fix it.
posted by blnkfrnk at 10:12 AM on February 26, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by blnkfrnk at 10:12 AM on February 26, 2023 [27 favorites]
"Did no one think this through?"
You are bordering on being uncharitable here. Yes, people thought this through. They thought it through 70+ years ago when the educational norms were in-line with both employment and social norms. Unfortunately, the latter two have changed significantly (especially in the last 30 years) while the former has not. But why is this?
As with most injustice. The people who have the power to change things (the companies could return to wages that enable single-income households, state governments could prioritize funding public education) choose not to fix the problem The people who would fix the problem (local schools) don't have the power to do so.
posted by oddman at 10:17 AM on February 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
You are bordering on being uncharitable here. Yes, people thought this through. They thought it through 70+ years ago when the educational norms were in-line with both employment and social norms. Unfortunately, the latter two have changed significantly (especially in the last 30 years) while the former has not. But why is this?
As with most injustice. The people who have the power to change things (the companies could return to wages that enable single-income households, state governments could prioritize funding public education) choose not to fix the problem The people who would fix the problem (local schools) don't have the power to do so.
posted by oddman at 10:17 AM on February 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
make the school day 8:30-7
I would much rather that this be routinely available than have it be the norm. If my kid got home at 7:15 and went to bed at 8:30 I wouldn't see much of him.
I know this isn't scalable to the problem here but even as a kid I felt there was not enough casual collaboration among the parents in my neighborhood. My parents tried carpooling but the other parents were so intent on being present for every little moment (you really have to see EVERY soccer practice?) that I could ride with them, the favor was never returned. There was no culture of "I can trust you with my kids and vice versa" - it was an irregularity used in times of necessity. We could stay at our neighbor's house for dinner or even sleep over but their parents expected them home from ours, and so on.
As a parent I have a much better balance on that with the other parents I am around, but our kids are young and always sick so it hasn't exactly taken flight yet. But the trust is there, and building. Where I foresee it falling apart is when they all start different sports or different activities.
posted by Emmy Rae at 10:21 AM on February 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would much rather that this be routinely available than have it be the norm. If my kid got home at 7:15 and went to bed at 8:30 I wouldn't see much of him.
I know this isn't scalable to the problem here but even as a kid I felt there was not enough casual collaboration among the parents in my neighborhood. My parents tried carpooling but the other parents were so intent on being present for every little moment (you really have to see EVERY soccer practice?) that I could ride with them, the favor was never returned. There was no culture of "I can trust you with my kids and vice versa" - it was an irregularity used in times of necessity. We could stay at our neighbor's house for dinner or even sleep over but their parents expected them home from ours, and so on.
As a parent I have a much better balance on that with the other parents I am around, but our kids are young and always sick so it hasn't exactly taken flight yet. But the trust is there, and building. Where I foresee it falling apart is when they all start different sports or different activities.
posted by Emmy Rae at 10:21 AM on February 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would much rather that this be routinely available than have it be the norm. If my kid got home at 7:15 and went to bed at 8:30 I wouldn't see much of him.
I am thinking, let it be available every day, but let the first half hour and the last four hours be optional. So the kids who need it are safe and having fun with their friends or doing homework or whatever until the end of the day, and the kids who have someone who can pick them up at 3 can go home (unless they plan to stay for soccer or art club or whatever.)
I am also thinking it would make more sense to have a year-round program that gives kids leave banks they can use whenever. Rather than closing for the summer, let families decide when they're taking off. Some people will use it for religious observance, some people will use it for a month-long visit with the grandparents once a year, some people will use it for summer Fridays, but the big chunk of closed school time in summer doesn't serve most kids well either academically or in terms of care.
Year-round like this does mean that teachers don't get summers off-- you'd have to hire more people to cover their own vacations and so on. (And the classified/non-teacher staff, ex. a school librarian like I use to be-- if they aren't credentialed, it's likely that the vacations are unpaid time. So of course I would rather have a full-time job for all 12 months of the year and that's why I work at a public library now.) You'd also have to hire after care people who aren't the teachers, because right now running Drama Club on Thursday until 6 is like the most anyone can do in terms of after care and also be carrying a full course load and all the non-teaching-time work they have to do.
posted by blnkfrnk at 10:33 AM on February 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am thinking, let it be available every day, but let the first half hour and the last four hours be optional. So the kids who need it are safe and having fun with their friends or doing homework or whatever until the end of the day, and the kids who have someone who can pick them up at 3 can go home (unless they plan to stay for soccer or art club or whatever.)
I am also thinking it would make more sense to have a year-round program that gives kids leave banks they can use whenever. Rather than closing for the summer, let families decide when they're taking off. Some people will use it for religious observance, some people will use it for a month-long visit with the grandparents once a year, some people will use it for summer Fridays, but the big chunk of closed school time in summer doesn't serve most kids well either academically or in terms of care.
Year-round like this does mean that teachers don't get summers off-- you'd have to hire more people to cover their own vacations and so on. (And the classified/non-teacher staff, ex. a school librarian like I use to be-- if they aren't credentialed, it's likely that the vacations are unpaid time. So of course I would rather have a full-time job for all 12 months of the year and that's why I work at a public library now.) You'd also have to hire after care people who aren't the teachers, because right now running Drama Club on Thursday until 6 is like the most anyone can do in terms of after care and also be carrying a full course load and all the non-teaching-time work they have to do.
posted by blnkfrnk at 10:33 AM on February 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Why bother when child care costs more than you can earn?
...because my partner's job paid better but I was the one with insurance? Because I would still need to maintain licensure and CEU's if I ever expected to return to work? Because I still accumulated credits towards Social Security for retirement? And I also had job-matched IRA funding? And I actually liked my job in a client-facing high-needs area, thanks.
Granted there are multiple reasons for senior poverty, but the need to create long-term financial resources if possible cannot be ignored.
Obviously much of this could be fixed if the USA had a national desire to do so.
posted by beaning at 10:43 AM on February 26, 2023 [24 favorites]
...because my partner's job paid better but I was the one with insurance? Because I would still need to maintain licensure and CEU's if I ever expected to return to work? Because I still accumulated credits towards Social Security for retirement? And I also had job-matched IRA funding? And I actually liked my job in a client-facing high-needs area, thanks.
Granted there are multiple reasons for senior poverty, but the need to create long-term financial resources if possible cannot be ignored.
Obviously much of this could be fixed if the USA had a national desire to do so.
posted by beaning at 10:43 AM on February 26, 2023 [24 favorites]
One of the most popular elementary-age charter schools here is on an 8-4:30 schedule with additional after and preschool offerings. The most popular aspect, from what I hear, is that they extend regular classroom hours to allow most homework to be completed on-site rather than at home.
A few schools here have played with alternate schedules and it usually falls apart due to parental objections to the inability to coordinate with other schools' schedules (so the elementary child is on this schedule with these days off but the older child is on that schedule with those days off and none of these work well with the traditional work schedule).
posted by beaning at 10:45 AM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
A few schools here have played with alternate schedules and it usually falls apart due to parental objections to the inability to coordinate with other schools' schedules (so the elementary child is on this schedule with these days off but the older child is on that schedule with those days off and none of these work well with the traditional work schedule).
posted by beaning at 10:45 AM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
> One of the messages I’ve been trying to really drive home is that if we’re trying to recruit people to the workforce by competing with Starbucks ... is do you want to make a difference? Do you want to really support and change the lives of young people? Do you want to get into a job that could be the entry point for a career in education?
Said Michael R. Funk, who it looks like is making about $138k plus $60k in benefits.
posted by smelendez at 11:03 AM on February 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Said Michael R. Funk, who it looks like is making about $138k plus $60k in benefits.
posted by smelendez at 11:03 AM on February 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of the messages I’ve been trying to really drive home is that if we’re trying to recruit people to the workforce by competing with Starbucks ... is do you want to make a difference? Do you want to really support and change the lives of young people? Do you want to get into a job that could be the entry point for a career in education?
Once again for the cheap seats (and for Mr. Funk): when someone is saying "X is a calling", what they're really saying is "I am going to try to shame you into taking less money for X."
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:18 AM on February 26, 2023 [25 favorites]
Once again for the cheap seats (and for Mr. Funk): when someone is saying "X is a calling", what they're really saying is "I am going to try to shame you into taking less money for X."
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:18 AM on February 26, 2023 [25 favorites]
this was in biden's build back better before being axed: What could the Build Back Better Act mean for afterschool and summer learning? "...the House of Representatives finished work at the Committee level on the Build Back Better Act legislation that invests in programs that support human infrastructure and includes parts of President Biden’s American Jobs Plan and American Families Plan."
posted by kliuless at 11:26 AM on February 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
As it currently stands, but likely to change when the bill heads to the Senate, the following provisions could impact the afterschool and summer learning field:what could have been...
- Elementary and Secondary Education
- $82 billion for infrastructure, including $80.6 billion for K-12 school construction, over fiscal years (FYs) 2022-2024 for a new Rebuild America’s Schools grant program. Most of the money would be available through FY 2026. States would receive funding based on the Title I formula. Allowable uses of funds include major repairs, safety and facility upgrades, constructing new facilities, and improving instructional or outdoor public school facilities relating to early learning, special education, science, technology, career and technical education, physical education, the arts, literacy (including library programs), or community based partnerships. $197 million for “Grow Your Own” Programs for FY 2022 to address teacher shortages in high-need subjects and locations and to increase the diversity of those entering the education field. Afterschool programs have been an important strategy in such efforts as documented in the recent Education Trust report “A Natural Fit: Supporting After-School Staff of Color in Teacher Pipelines.”
[...]
- Career and Technical Education
- $3 billion for career and technical education (CTE) programs for FY 2022 and $1 billion for innovation and modernization under the Carl D. Perkins Career and Technical Education Act of 2006, to remain available until 2028. Community based afterschool programs that have been working with CTE programs to support students with access to CTE learning opportunities after school could potentially benefit.
- National and Community Service
- $1.3 billion for the Corporation for National and Community Service to support existing and new awards for national service programs authorized under the AmeriCorps State and National program including AmeriCorps, VISTA, and the National Civilian Community Corps, which provide important resources and volunteers that help local out-of-school time programs support the needs of young people in communities impacted by poverty.
- Child Care and Universal Pre-Kindergarten - $450 billion
- $90 billion over FYs 2022-2024 and such sums as may be necessary for FYs 2025-2027 to provide child care for specified low-income and other eligible families through a new “birth through five child care and early learning entitlement program.” While the new proposed entitlement program does not extend to school-age children, the proposed expansion of child care access for significantly more young children would enable the existing child care system and Child Care Development Block Grant funding to serve more school age students by capping the amount of CCDBG funds dedicated to children 0-5 in states that opt in to the new entitlement.
- $200 million in the House Ways and Means Committee portion of the bill for each of FY 2022 and FY 2023 for matching grants to states for creating child care information networks that include programs serving school-age students.
- $15 billion for FY 2022 (funds are available through FY 2026) for infrastructure grants of up to $250 million to states to improve child care safety by acquiring, constructing, expanding, or renovating child care facilities, including those serving school-age students. State must provide a 10 percent match to the federal funds.
[...]
- Child Nutrition
- Expands the number of schools that would be able to offer free meals to all students through the Community Eligibility Provision by lowering the Identified Student Percentage eligibility threshold from 40 to 25 percent. This provision would continue through June 30, 2030. The bill would also give states the option to implement the Community Eligibility Provision statewide, allowing all students in the state to receive school breakfast and lunch at no charge. This provision would continue through June 30, 2030.
- Extends Summer EBT nationwide for students who receive free or reduced-price school meals (including those who attend Community Eligibility Provision, Provision 2, or Provision 3 schools). The bill would allow states as well as Indian Tribal Organizations that participate in WIC to provide Summer EBT. This provision would continue through September 30, 2029.
- Provides $634 million for a Healthy School Meals Incentives demonstration project that would support activities like school and community gardens, with a potential role for community-based organizations to partner with schools in this effort.
posted by kliuless at 11:26 AM on February 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
Everything is related. My Mom worked when she met my Dad but quit to raise 3 kids. And then after all the kids were grown she had no skillset to get those final few points to get her full Social Security. So yeah once you decide to drop out of the workforce for more than say a year, your whole life will change in ways you won't even think of.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:27 AM on February 26, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:27 AM on February 26, 2023 [23 favorites]
I don't know. All of my after-school hours were spent at the library, until the librarians chased me out. I avoided bullies that way. Normal-looking kids might be OK with extra social hours, but I would have huddled away from that.
posted by SPrintF at 11:32 AM on February 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 11:32 AM on February 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
Essay on how the Swiss improve work-life balance and therefore labor force participation. (Tl;dr — Real part time jobs and a wealth tax.)
posted by clew at 11:35 AM on February 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by clew at 11:35 AM on February 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
SprintF - Yeah, my first thought there was that if an 8:30am-7:00pm school day had existed when I was a kid, I'd have had some kind of suicidal breakdown before I turned eleven, which wouldn't have made anything easier for my parents.
posted by BlueNorther at 11:37 AM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by BlueNorther at 11:37 AM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Essay on how the Swiss improve work-life balance and therefore labor force participation.
it's like that last line in fargo: "and for what? for a little bit of money?"
posted by kliuless at 12:06 PM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
it's like that last line in fargo: "and for what? for a little bit of money?"
posted by kliuless at 12:06 PM on February 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
The author argued that it is not independence that allows this, but expanded dependence
So, back in the wild 80s, I used to walk my numerous younger siblings home from the bus stop through frankly a not very safe neighborhood and watch them til one of my parents got home. When I was ten. There was a fair amount of Lord of the Flies action, but also, looking back, we lived in a mixed-income tenant-run co-op where everybody knew everybody just from the committees and the clean-up rotations (plus a lot of the families went to the same church), so there would have been adults available in real catastrophes. But that comes from living in an actual community rather than a set of parcels of property chosen to avoid participation in civic life.
Also, of course, that wouldn't work for, e.g., a solo seven-year-old.
posted by praemunire at 12:25 PM on February 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
So, back in the wild 80s, I used to walk my numerous younger siblings home from the bus stop through frankly a not very safe neighborhood and watch them til one of my parents got home. When I was ten. There was a fair amount of Lord of the Flies action, but also, looking back, we lived in a mixed-income tenant-run co-op where everybody knew everybody just from the committees and the clean-up rotations (plus a lot of the families went to the same church), so there would have been adults available in real catastrophes. But that comes from living in an actual community rather than a set of parcels of property chosen to avoid participation in civic life.
Also, of course, that wouldn't work for, e.g., a solo seven-year-old.
posted by praemunire at 12:25 PM on February 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
Why don't more schools just offer their teachers to make extra money for working a few extra hours after school? This would seem to make it easier to recruit, since it would be convenient for any teacher who didn't have their own kids to raise. And people could opt just to do a couple shifts a week.
But yeah, if you want to hire people to do this, you need to pay them more than minimum wage. I did work in an after school program once, and for me - fresh college grad, who was pursuing a freelancing life - the job was a good fit as it paid just enough for me to break-even every month, so it made pursuing freelance gigs less stressful. I forget the pay, but it was at least $25 an hr.
I've often wondered if it wouldn't make sense to make the school day 8:30-7
And you think it's hard to recruit teachers now...
posted by coffeecat at 12:27 PM on February 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
But yeah, if you want to hire people to do this, you need to pay them more than minimum wage. I did work in an after school program once, and for me - fresh college grad, who was pursuing a freelancing life - the job was a good fit as it paid just enough for me to break-even every month, so it made pursuing freelance gigs less stressful. I forget the pay, but it was at least $25 an hr.
I've often wondered if it wouldn't make sense to make the school day 8:30-7
And you think it's hard to recruit teachers now...
posted by coffeecat at 12:27 PM on February 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why don't more schools just offer their teachers to make extra money for working a few extra hours after school?
There's two hilarious assumptions here:
- Schools have extra money to hand out
- Teachers do not continue to work after the kids leave
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:44 PM on February 26, 2023 [51 favorites]
There's two hilarious assumptions here:
- Schools have extra money to hand out
- Teachers do not continue to work after the kids leave
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:44 PM on February 26, 2023 [51 favorites]
Why don't more schools just offer their teachers to make extra money for working a few extra hours after school?
Teachers who are coaches or lead activities like afterschool clubs are paid out of the school budget which is determined by the larger district based on expected state and local funding--which is taxed based and already gets enough complaints about "why are my taxes going for...."
Around here, unless a school is specifically budgeting for after-school care, outside entities administer and staff the after-care programs, so, for example, the local Y, the local karate school, the local arts program all place a bid and "win" based on expected attendees across all school ages. Programs that are too expensive (karate requires mats and uniforms, arts requires smocks and materials, etc) may not be selected, the same non-selection may happen with programs that sound good but experience too many drop outs (kids don't like the coach, program is too rigorous for multiple ages).
Local PTOs/PTAs used to help fund after school activities but this devolved into issues surrounding resource rich (money, parents with appropriate skill sets, contacts into local sports/arts orgs) vs resource poor schools.
Not to mention teachers who are already doing after-school tutoring, have kids/families of their own or need the time for lesson prep and grading.
posted by beaning at 1:12 PM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Teachers who are coaches or lead activities like afterschool clubs are paid out of the school budget which is determined by the larger district based on expected state and local funding--which is taxed based and already gets enough complaints about "why are my taxes going for...."
Around here, unless a school is specifically budgeting for after-school care, outside entities administer and staff the after-care programs, so, for example, the local Y, the local karate school, the local arts program all place a bid and "win" based on expected attendees across all school ages. Programs that are too expensive (karate requires mats and uniforms, arts requires smocks and materials, etc) may not be selected, the same non-selection may happen with programs that sound good but experience too many drop outs (kids don't like the coach, program is too rigorous for multiple ages).
Local PTOs/PTAs used to help fund after school activities but this devolved into issues surrounding resource rich (money, parents with appropriate skill sets, contacts into local sports/arts orgs) vs resource poor schools.
Not to mention teachers who are already doing after-school tutoring, have kids/families of their own or need the time for lesson prep and grading.
posted by beaning at 1:12 PM on February 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
People who are willing to subject their children to even more hours of school either don’t really grasp what's going on at their kid's school, or are sending them to much better schools than I ever went to.
posted by jamjam at 1:13 PM on February 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 1:13 PM on February 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
Part of why I became a teacher in the first place was that I had a child, and I couldn't figure out any way to be there when my kid wasn't in school. It turned out I couldn't be there anyway, because the teacher's work day ends as much as two hours (sometimes more) after the kids leave. In elementary school we did have our kid go to the house of a parent of a classmate, which was marvelous except for the drug-addicted father with anger problems, the drunken grandfather and the two deranged Dalmatians. It worked out okay in the end and my 40-year-old kid still has fond memories of the time, but golly. When our kid was older, their father got off work early enough to pick them up
As my grandkid approaches preschool age I am preparing to volunteer to pick him up from school. I keep running into people like me who are retired except for the fact that we provide child care.
posted by Peach at 1:47 PM on February 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
As my grandkid approaches preschool age I am preparing to volunteer to pick him up from school. I keep running into people like me who are retired except for the fact that we provide child care.
posted by Peach at 1:47 PM on February 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Did no one think this through?
Yes, couple lack of aftercare with lack of access to birth control and abortion and you force women out of the workforce. Republican dream comes true. Hasn't that been the plan all along?
posted by Toddles at 2:02 PM on February 26, 2023 [20 favorites]
Yes, couple lack of aftercare with lack of access to birth control and abortion and you force women out of the workforce. Republican dream comes true. Hasn't that been the plan all along?
posted by Toddles at 2:02 PM on February 26, 2023 [20 favorites]
A lot of my high school classmates had after-school jobs babysitting younger kids until their parents got home from work. That probably works a lot better in a small town where everybody knows everybody else, though.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:45 PM on February 26, 2023
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:45 PM on February 26, 2023
When I was a kid in the 80s our parents provided us with latchkeys.
posted by snofoam at 2:58 PM on February 26, 2023
posted by snofoam at 2:58 PM on February 26, 2023
IDK am I the only one who thinks a shorter workday makes infinitely more sense than an 11 hour school day for small children?
If I could have my dream setup, I think a society that appropriately valued and compensated reproductive work and care work would create a system where parents only slowly ramp up to full time work outside the home after having children, over the course of 10+ years. Parents take a full year off when their kid is born. Work two or three days a week until the kid is six. And then, thirty-hour work weeks until the kid is out of elementary school. Full time after that, with the option for staying part time if the kids have special needs - or if anyone else in the home needs care.
Practically speaking this would mean part-time workers not being excluded from any part of the labor market, perhaps even legislation mandating employers not to discriminate based on the number of hours a particular applicant can work.
And of course government-funded wages for the remaining hours of caregiving work performed by parents and family caregivers will make up a full salary for the full days worked.
posted by MiraK at 3:23 PM on February 26, 2023 [27 favorites]
If I could have my dream setup, I think a society that appropriately valued and compensated reproductive work and care work would create a system where parents only slowly ramp up to full time work outside the home after having children, over the course of 10+ years. Parents take a full year off when their kid is born. Work two or three days a week until the kid is six. And then, thirty-hour work weeks until the kid is out of elementary school. Full time after that, with the option for staying part time if the kids have special needs - or if anyone else in the home needs care.
Practically speaking this would mean part-time workers not being excluded from any part of the labor market, perhaps even legislation mandating employers not to discriminate based on the number of hours a particular applicant can work.
And of course government-funded wages for the remaining hours of caregiving work performed by parents and family caregivers will make up a full salary for the full days worked.
posted by MiraK at 3:23 PM on February 26, 2023 [27 favorites]
As a kid growing up in the mid-70's - early 80's I treasured those magic moments of independence - used for reading, teaching myself music, exploring outdoors and generally just enjoying solitude. And as I got older, other illicit (from a Conservative Parental Perspective) stuff, naturally. Wouldn't have traded this for anything - it was an important crash-course in self reliance and finding my own way. I was unsupervised afterschool from age 7 and these were the only times I was ever happy to be alive at all at the time, basically.
Echoing a couple of comments upthread, if there had been an 8:30-7 school day, I would have been terminally depressed and probably suicidal before I reached double digits.
posted by remembrancer at 3:27 PM on February 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
Echoing a couple of comments upthread, if there had been an 8:30-7 school day, I would have been terminally depressed and probably suicidal before I reached double digits.
posted by remembrancer at 3:27 PM on February 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
There's two hilarious assumptions here:
- Schools have extra money to hand out
- Teachers do not continue to work after the kids leave
My mom and most of her friends were school teachers, so I'm not assuming anything. As someone mentioned, some teachers already elect to do things like coaching or theater for students after school for fairly minimal pay. And I'm thinking something basic here - i.e. a scenario where the adults could at least partly use the time to do their own work while kids played board games, watch TV on their devices, did homework, etc. In terms of money, they could charge for this service.
But sure, I agree with MiraK that an easier fix is to make the workday shorter - or at least, to allow parents to finish off their workday remotely.
posted by coffeecat at 3:37 PM on February 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
- Schools have extra money to hand out
- Teachers do not continue to work after the kids leave
My mom and most of her friends were school teachers, so I'm not assuming anything. As someone mentioned, some teachers already elect to do things like coaching or theater for students after school for fairly minimal pay. And I'm thinking something basic here - i.e. a scenario where the adults could at least partly use the time to do their own work while kids played board games, watch TV on their devices, did homework, etc. In terms of money, they could charge for this service.
But sure, I agree with MiraK that an easier fix is to make the workday shorter - or at least, to allow parents to finish off their workday remotely.
posted by coffeecat at 3:37 PM on February 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
My brother did that math in like 1999 and his wife gave up her 9-5 as a programmer. We did it, too, and my wife stopped working when our second kid was born. The cost and the stress was just tooo far out of whack with what she made.
Clearly everyone has to make choices with the actual hand they've been given and this probably made financial sense for you folks, but it's interesting that it's the women who gave up their jobs to enable the childcare. It often happens that way in opposite sex relationships even when both partners earn similarly.
That's why childcare has always been a feminist issue. I know you all know that, but I don't think it's ok to have the idea of women disproportionately leaving the workforce to be considered a normal solution.
posted by plonkee at 1:34 AM on February 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
Clearly everyone has to make choices with the actual hand they've been given and this probably made financial sense for you folks, but it's interesting that it's the women who gave up their jobs to enable the childcare. It often happens that way in opposite sex relationships even when both partners earn similarly.
That's why childcare has always been a feminist issue. I know you all know that, but I don't think it's ok to have the idea of women disproportionately leaving the workforce to be considered a normal solution.
posted by plonkee at 1:34 AM on February 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
The insanity of trying to figure out after school care for young kids in a household with multiple working parents is only matched by trying to figure out WTF those kids will do throughout the summer. We and parents we know have large spreadsheets of all the camps and care options available for the months without school. Not a shared spreadsheet, mind you, because on some level this is also competitive. These things book up 6 months in advance. We’ll spend thousands this summer cobbling together weeks of (hopefully fun, possibly educational) options for our kiddo. Being able to enroll kids in all these crazy camps is a big privilege that many don’t have… what a mess.
posted by pkingdesign at 5:36 AM on February 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by pkingdesign at 5:36 AM on February 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
There are grants available for this sort of thing. I know because my small town is utilizing them. It doesn't solve the staffing problem though, although they are making it work here utlizing Teacher aids they already have that would like extra duty and hiring coordinators.
The school system also has pre K that lasts most of the day and summer programs, including a program that coordinates with another local summer program so that students can have very inexpensive care for all day (like 250 for the whole summer) and a feeding program that allows any student to get two free meals a day during the summer and meals during the extended holidays. One teacher years ago started an afterschool program to help kids from the part of the community that she belonged to and today that program has a building of its own and serves many children every day, feeding, tutoring and giving them a safe place to be.
We are very lucky to have had people over the years that have taken the initative to locate grants and other funding for these programs and very lucky to have people who continue to work to keep the programs going.
Obviously much of this could be fixed if the USA had a national desire to do so.
True. None of these things are perfect here and the school system has its share of other problems, but things can be clearly be improved if people are motivated to do so. There are things that are easier in a small school system and city but there are also less resources. The school system i am speaking of has around 80% free and reduced lunch population and roughly 74% minority. People need these services here badly.
posted by domino at 6:50 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
The school system also has pre K that lasts most of the day and summer programs, including a program that coordinates with another local summer program so that students can have very inexpensive care for all day (like 250 for the whole summer) and a feeding program that allows any student to get two free meals a day during the summer and meals during the extended holidays. One teacher years ago started an afterschool program to help kids from the part of the community that she belonged to and today that program has a building of its own and serves many children every day, feeding, tutoring and giving them a safe place to be.
We are very lucky to have had people over the years that have taken the initative to locate grants and other funding for these programs and very lucky to have people who continue to work to keep the programs going.
Obviously much of this could be fixed if the USA had a national desire to do so.
True. None of these things are perfect here and the school system has its share of other problems, but things can be clearly be improved if people are motivated to do so. There are things that are easier in a small school system and city but there are also less resources. The school system i am speaking of has around 80% free and reduced lunch population and roughly 74% minority. People need these services here badly.
posted by domino at 6:50 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
We had after school programs... Both middle and high school. It was unstructured just a couple teachers watching kids on the playground or in front of the TV on rainy days. And some board games. I know school budgets are tight but can it really cost that much to run?
It's gotta be cheaper than paying a million teachers to run a million different after school clubs, which is what my current school does.
posted by subdee at 7:06 AM on February 27, 2023
It's gotta be cheaper than paying a million teachers to run a million different after school clubs, which is what my current school does.
posted by subdee at 7:06 AM on February 27, 2023
Our daughter (11, fifth grade) is in an excellent after-care program at her public school that has free choice between directed art class, free-form art, media center (library), and playground. We've loved her having the choice of activities in the afternoons. She usually does her homework.
The after-care program's also private and costs $440 per month. Next year the school is adding a state (California) program that will be less expensive and less good. This is our daughter's last year of elementary school, so we're grateful she's had the program her whole time in elementary.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 AM on February 27, 2023
The after-care program's also private and costs $440 per month. Next year the school is adding a state (California) program that will be less expensive and less good. This is our daughter's last year of elementary school, so we're grateful she's had the program her whole time in elementary.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 AM on February 27, 2023
We had after school programs... Both middle and high school. It was unstructured just a couple teachers watching kids on the playground or in front of the TV on rainy days. And some board games. I know school budgets are tight but can it really cost that much to run?
I run a private, high-quality after school program with a martial arts component and some of the assumptions in this thread are pretty far from how we do it. I support a less costly, publicly-funded option. (We have those here, about $200/mo.) But here's some of the challenges:
- after school care is mostly needed by younger kids; after school programs for kids that could stay home alone are more enrichment programs.
- younger kids have a lot of needs - safe supervision, they're tired at the end of the day, they need to go to the bathroom (sometimes have accidents) and so on. Often they need someone to listen to them.
- Related: childcare is not the same as school. It's not really safe to have just one adult there (we have 50 kids, but a school could have more), so you have to staff accordingly. We actually go for a ratio closer to 1:10 kids.
The LAW in Ontario for after care for kindergarten is 1:13 and for school aged kids up to grade 4 is 1:15, and 1:20 after that.
- unlike a drama club, an after school program has to run every day to be effective, and ours anyway runs to 6:30pm, unless the commuter trains are messed up, in which case we've had kids at our facilities as late as 7:30. I think that would be a very long day for teachers. You also are in loco parentis and so you can't fail and have no staff, so you have to have backup for when people get sick, have appointments, etc.
- Staffing costs are far and away #1. Retaining good people who get good at after care is hard, because the hours are weird (ours are 2-7pm for our key leads). But having fresh, happy people doing aftercare is kind of the magic sauce. We pay our leads enough that they can pay their rent without having to work at Starbucks at 6 am. (The assistants are more in the $16/hr range from the article.)
- even so, with insurance, rent (we need an extra room beyond what we need for martial arts) and bussing costs, our program is not a vast money-maker; for us it works for other business reasons.
Obviously some of our choices are because we can charge accordingly and make those decisions.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:52 AM on February 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
I run a private, high-quality after school program with a martial arts component and some of the assumptions in this thread are pretty far from how we do it. I support a less costly, publicly-funded option. (We have those here, about $200/mo.) But here's some of the challenges:
- after school care is mostly needed by younger kids; after school programs for kids that could stay home alone are more enrichment programs.
- younger kids have a lot of needs - safe supervision, they're tired at the end of the day, they need to go to the bathroom (sometimes have accidents) and so on. Often they need someone to listen to them.
- Related: childcare is not the same as school. It's not really safe to have just one adult there (we have 50 kids, but a school could have more), so you have to staff accordingly. We actually go for a ratio closer to 1:10 kids.
The LAW in Ontario for after care for kindergarten is 1:13 and for school aged kids up to grade 4 is 1:15, and 1:20 after that.
- unlike a drama club, an after school program has to run every day to be effective, and ours anyway runs to 6:30pm, unless the commuter trains are messed up, in which case we've had kids at our facilities as late as 7:30. I think that would be a very long day for teachers. You also are in loco parentis and so you can't fail and have no staff, so you have to have backup for when people get sick, have appointments, etc.
- Staffing costs are far and away #1. Retaining good people who get good at after care is hard, because the hours are weird (ours are 2-7pm for our key leads). But having fresh, happy people doing aftercare is kind of the magic sauce. We pay our leads enough that they can pay their rent without having to work at Starbucks at 6 am. (The assistants are more in the $16/hr range from the article.)
- even so, with insurance, rent (we need an extra room beyond what we need for martial arts) and bussing costs, our program is not a vast money-maker; for us it works for other business reasons.
Obviously some of our choices are because we can charge accordingly and make those decisions.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:52 AM on February 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
plonkee: ...it's interesting that it's the women who gave up their jobs to enable the childcare.
In many cases, yes it is. In our case, it's because I made more than she did, and my expected earnings would increase faster due to our respective industries.
I will assume this is a substantive comment and not a drive-by on me. :7) The impact on women of leaving the workforce to do child-care is enormous: financial, yes, but also social and emotional -- and no doubt there are invisible effects due to stress and isolation.
On purely economic grounds it was the right choice. Also, my family is 1300 miles away and hers was nearby, so she got more social support than I would have if I was the SAHP. This helped to ease some of the isolation, because she could spend time with her parents and the kids, and that was another factor in the decision.
Before that, it sucked when she was having to do drop-off and pick-up at day care (because she was nearer and drove our only car, while I rode the train to work, an hour away). Neither of us liked her being in heavy traffic with a little kid strapped into the back seat, so being able to leave that behind was a quality-of-life gain. But we never pretended there was no impact to her, only that the gains seemed worth it at the time.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:55 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
In many cases, yes it is. In our case, it's because I made more than she did, and my expected earnings would increase faster due to our respective industries.
I will assume this is a substantive comment and not a drive-by on me. :7) The impact on women of leaving the workforce to do child-care is enormous: financial, yes, but also social and emotional -- and no doubt there are invisible effects due to stress and isolation.
On purely economic grounds it was the right choice. Also, my family is 1300 miles away and hers was nearby, so she got more social support than I would have if I was the SAHP. This helped to ease some of the isolation, because she could spend time with her parents and the kids, and that was another factor in the decision.
Before that, it sucked when she was having to do drop-off and pick-up at day care (because she was nearer and drove our only car, while I rode the train to work, an hour away). Neither of us liked her being in heavy traffic with a little kid strapped into the back seat, so being able to leave that behind was a quality-of-life gain. But we never pretended there was no impact to her, only that the gains seemed worth it at the time.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:55 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
My kids' school has after school care to 5:30. It costs extra money but not that much, so it's generally affordable. Of the 450 kids in the school, only like 50-75 actually use it. Plenty of others are in activities right after school or other after-school care (and specialized busses do come get them).
Most kids (including mine are I guess what you call 'latchkey', because they are more than old enough to watch themselves at about 8 years old. My wife stayed home until they were in the 3rd grade, but by then she was bored and had nothing to do while they were in-school, so she preferred going back to work. I work from home so I generally pick our younger up, but she can walk home and let herself in if I'm busy and it's not like that kids roam the neighborhood. They all play video games on ipads now.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:12 AM on February 27, 2023
Most kids (including mine are I guess what you call 'latchkey', because they are more than old enough to watch themselves at about 8 years old. My wife stayed home until they were in the 3rd grade, but by then she was bored and had nothing to do while they were in-school, so she preferred going back to work. I work from home so I generally pick our younger up, but she can walk home and let herself in if I'm busy and it's not like that kids roam the neighborhood. They all play video games on ipads now.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:12 AM on February 27, 2023
One thing this article is missing, despite a title that makes it sounds like this is a specifically American issue, is any kind of consideration of what the rest of the wealthy world does.
The Netherlands for instance requires primary schools to offer (not necessarily on premises) pre- and after-school programmes from 0700 to 1830. This is very often not at the school but the school and programme are accountable for moving the children between school and other places.
You have to pay for this, how much the state will pick up is income and benefits dependent.
I couldn't tell you how well it works since growing up, my mother didn't work (still today much, much more common in the Netherlands than foreigners expect - we have Europe's highest rate of part-time female employment) and I now live in England with a pre-school-age child.
English schools are required to provide wrap-around clubs from 0800 to 1800 (for which they may and do charge a fee), can be on-site or nearby so basically quite similar to the Dutch rules.
I wonder what the rest of Europe does but the commonality seems to be that schools themselves have to organise this either directly or through partners so that parents only have to drop off / pick up once.
I suspect that the ability of many office workers to work from home multiple days a week is going to affect the popularity of these clubs for older kids who are almost old enough to be at home by themselves. I wouldn't leave a seven year old alone by themselves but they don't need full-time supervision either.
posted by atrazine at 8:15 AM on February 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Netherlands for instance requires primary schools to offer (not necessarily on premises) pre- and after-school programmes from 0700 to 1830. This is very often not at the school but the school and programme are accountable for moving the children between school and other places.
You have to pay for this, how much the state will pick up is income and benefits dependent.
I couldn't tell you how well it works since growing up, my mother didn't work (still today much, much more common in the Netherlands than foreigners expect - we have Europe's highest rate of part-time female employment) and I now live in England with a pre-school-age child.
English schools are required to provide wrap-around clubs from 0800 to 1800 (for which they may and do charge a fee), can be on-site or nearby so basically quite similar to the Dutch rules.
I wonder what the rest of Europe does but the commonality seems to be that schools themselves have to organise this either directly or through partners so that parents only have to drop off / pick up once.
I suspect that the ability of many office workers to work from home multiple days a week is going to affect the popularity of these clubs for older kids who are almost old enough to be at home by themselves. I wouldn't leave a seven year old alone by themselves but they don't need full-time supervision either.
posted by atrazine at 8:15 AM on February 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
>> ...it's interesting that it's the women who gave up their jobs to enable the childcare.
>> In many cases, yes it is. In our case, it's because I made more than she did, and my expected earnings would increase faster due to our respective industries.
Most people who say it makes financial sense for the lower earning (almost always female) partner to give up their job to care for children don't count the costs from all the lost promotions, lost raises, lost retirement contributions, lost social security, and the penalty imposed on people with a large gap in their resume when they try to re-enter the paid workforce. Crucially, this cost is borne 100% by the spouse who quits to stay home, not by both parents. If the parents get divorced five years later, the stay at home spouse re-enters the workforce at a massively reduced level and often never recovers from the hit to their career while the spouse who stayed in the workforce continues full steam ahead in the momentum they've already gathered - and no, neither child support nor alimony make any meaningful difference to this imbalance.
The lifetime earnings impact to the stay at home parent is so immense that it almost always makes more financial sense for the whole family to be "underwater" for a few years if necessary, paying whatever high childcare costs are needed to enable both spouses to stay in the workforce. This has the added benefit of ensuring that the childcare costs are shared appropriately between both spouses, rather than the hit penalizing one of them only.
posted by MiraK at 8:21 AM on February 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
>> In many cases, yes it is. In our case, it's because I made more than she did, and my expected earnings would increase faster due to our respective industries.
Most people who say it makes financial sense for the lower earning (almost always female) partner to give up their job to care for children don't count the costs from all the lost promotions, lost raises, lost retirement contributions, lost social security, and the penalty imposed on people with a large gap in their resume when they try to re-enter the paid workforce. Crucially, this cost is borne 100% by the spouse who quits to stay home, not by both parents. If the parents get divorced five years later, the stay at home spouse re-enters the workforce at a massively reduced level and often never recovers from the hit to their career while the spouse who stayed in the workforce continues full steam ahead in the momentum they've already gathered - and no, neither child support nor alimony make any meaningful difference to this imbalance.
The lifetime earnings impact to the stay at home parent is so immense that it almost always makes more financial sense for the whole family to be "underwater" for a few years if necessary, paying whatever high childcare costs are needed to enable both spouses to stay in the workforce. This has the added benefit of ensuring that the childcare costs are shared appropriately between both spouses, rather than the hit penalizing one of them only.
posted by MiraK at 8:21 AM on February 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
they are more than old enough to watch themselves at about 8 years old
Purely as a side-point of interest, some states have rules about this which some folks should take care to notice lest the Official Response be quite negative for all involved.
Most states do not have rules.
posted by aramaic at 8:23 AM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Purely as a side-point of interest, some states have rules about this which some folks should take care to notice lest the Official Response be quite negative for all involved.
Most states do not have rules.
posted by aramaic at 8:23 AM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is all symptom treatment, living in a society so sick with capitalistic work-ethic that the only solutions on the table are versions of collective resources to care for children for even more time away from their parents, families and neighborhoods, rather than trying to rebuild an increasingly-automated society so that parents don't have to be away from their homes for over half of waking hours most days. It's ludicrous, the degree to which we've been persuaded to let capitalistic work invade our lives and precious time.
(Apparently I'm feeling pretty crotchety this morning. I know that these really foundational, structural problems will persist well beyond our current lifetimes, but want to at least recognize that the problems articulated in the FPP are symptoms, and that the core problem has nothing to do at all with schooling, really, other than how that interfaces with the demands of capitalistic work, which it has had to do since its inception, especially since that's primarily what it was designed to serve.)
posted by LooseFilter at 8:23 AM on February 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
(Apparently I'm feeling pretty crotchety this morning. I know that these really foundational, structural problems will persist well beyond our current lifetimes, but want to at least recognize that the problems articulated in the FPP are symptoms, and that the core problem has nothing to do at all with schooling, really, other than how that interfaces with the demands of capitalistic work, which it has had to do since its inception, especially since that's primarily what it was designed to serve.)
posted by LooseFilter at 8:23 AM on February 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
When people say that it's the right choice for the woman to leave work, there's so much in play:
1. Women are steered into lower-paying professions and face pay discrimination, so they are always-already likely to be the lower earners. (By no means universally; my mother earned more than my father.) So when it "makes sense" for the lower earner to leave work, it "makes sense" because of discrimination.
2. Women live longer on average and receive social security longer on average, so lower benefits hit them harder.
3. Divorce. Women are likely to be poorer than men after divorce. Women tend to bear more financial and logistical burden after divorce, which makes it harder to rev up the ol' career in midlife.
4. Age discrimination hits women harder, making it harder to rev up the ol, etc etc
5. Divorce II - the risk of divorce rises enormously for women when they get cancer or other serious illnesses. So it's easy to end up in a situation where you've stayed home to raise the kids, earned less, now you're heading into your golden years, you get cancer and whoops, your husband is outie because a sick wife isn't what he signed up for.
6. Poor negotiation and poor enforcement of child support. Frankly a lot of guys just fuck off into the blue and don't pay child support - my friends seem evenly split between families where the parents are together and families where the father is completely 100% absent, sends no money, contributes zilch, etc. This is very shocking to me, tbh, but apparently it's a lot harder to fix than one would think.
7. When Dad starts over and withdraws support - again, something deeply shocking to me but not nearly as uncommon as I would have thought. Dad ditches Mom when Mom hits forty, Dad marries a younger woman and produces a second family which receives most of his money, attention and estate.
I mean, I hope and trust that mefites are a cut above such that what makes the most sense for the family in the moment also ends up making the most sense for the mother, but it gives me the cold chills when I think about the risks that women are routinely expected to run.
posted by Frowner at 8:38 AM on February 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
1. Women are steered into lower-paying professions and face pay discrimination, so they are always-already likely to be the lower earners. (By no means universally; my mother earned more than my father.) So when it "makes sense" for the lower earner to leave work, it "makes sense" because of discrimination.
2. Women live longer on average and receive social security longer on average, so lower benefits hit them harder.
3. Divorce. Women are likely to be poorer than men after divorce. Women tend to bear more financial and logistical burden after divorce, which makes it harder to rev up the ol' career in midlife.
4. Age discrimination hits women harder, making it harder to rev up the ol, etc etc
5. Divorce II - the risk of divorce rises enormously for women when they get cancer or other serious illnesses. So it's easy to end up in a situation where you've stayed home to raise the kids, earned less, now you're heading into your golden years, you get cancer and whoops, your husband is outie because a sick wife isn't what he signed up for.
6. Poor negotiation and poor enforcement of child support. Frankly a lot of guys just fuck off into the blue and don't pay child support - my friends seem evenly split between families where the parents are together and families where the father is completely 100% absent, sends no money, contributes zilch, etc. This is very shocking to me, tbh, but apparently it's a lot harder to fix than one would think.
7. When Dad starts over and withdraws support - again, something deeply shocking to me but not nearly as uncommon as I would have thought. Dad ditches Mom when Mom hits forty, Dad marries a younger woman and produces a second family which receives most of his money, attention and estate.
I mean, I hope and trust that mefites are a cut above such that what makes the most sense for the family in the moment also ends up making the most sense for the mother, but it gives me the cold chills when I think about the risks that women are routinely expected to run.
posted by Frowner at 8:38 AM on February 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
Purely as a side-point of interest, some states have rules about this which some folks should take care to notice lest the Official Response be quite negative for all involved.
I'd bet this rule is just like texting and driving (or generally cell phone use) which is illegal is most states. It's only used to harass a tiny number of parents and every other parent is effectively breaking the law. I have plenty of family and friends in Illinois and they most assuredly left their children alone way before 14 years old.
rebuild an increasingly-automated society so that parents don't have to be away from their homes for over half of waking hours most days.
IDK, I think most people want to be away from their homes for some period of the day. Maybe they don't want to be working specifically, but they do want something productive to do with their time.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:42 AM on February 27, 2023
I'd bet this rule is just like texting and driving (or generally cell phone use) which is illegal is most states. It's only used to harass a tiny number of parents and every other parent is effectively breaking the law. I have plenty of family and friends in Illinois and they most assuredly left their children alone way before 14 years old.
rebuild an increasingly-automated society so that parents don't have to be away from their homes for over half of waking hours most days.
IDK, I think most people want to be away from their homes for some period of the day. Maybe they don't want to be working specifically, but they do want something productive to do with their time.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:42 AM on February 27, 2023
living in a society so sick with capitalistic work-ethic that the only solutions on the table are versions of collective resources to care for children for even more time away from their parents, families and neighborhoods
I kind of agree. For us the commuting and the "let's just have a quick meeting at 5:20" were really, really hard to manage when our kids were in need of that care (my youngest, at 12, is on the cusp.)
My salary, the years we needed full daycare + full wraparound care, was $250/mo less than my daycare costs and my commuting costs. It sucked but I stayed on the grid, and got retirement plan contributions, etc.
However, I'll also say that we chose to pay for really high-quality after school care, including the program I now work in. And it was actually very beneficial to my kids. Not every hour, but they got piano lessons, martial arts classes, painting lessons, nature walks, chess lessons and games with peers, homework help from the Knowledgeable 20 Year Olds instead of dumb old mum & dad, etc.
It also gave them a tight group of friends outside of their schools. (We call 'em daycare cousins) which helped the years the school dynamics sucked.
What I work for in my program -- which doesn't happen every day but we really do strive for it -- but is that our kids come in off the bus and they relax their shoulders. They hang out with caring teenagers and young adults who give them great intel.
Anyways, my point is...I love my kids and especially as you get older you do realize those years were precious and not without their losses. Working until 3:30 or 4 would have been great. But really good childcare is not a total loss. It does have benefits to both the child and the family.
To be honest, I was never at my best right after work and I'm glad my kids got the best of other caring adults for some of that time.
Also...in our program we run about 10-15% diagnosed neurodivergent kids. Many of these kids come out of school having heard all day what they did wrong over and over. Some of their parents are also under a lot of stress. I'm glad to have them in our classes where we can really see how great they are at things that don't fall into the school world.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:44 AM on February 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
I kind of agree. For us the commuting and the "let's just have a quick meeting at 5:20" were really, really hard to manage when our kids were in need of that care (my youngest, at 12, is on the cusp.)
My salary, the years we needed full daycare + full wraparound care, was $250/mo less than my daycare costs and my commuting costs. It sucked but I stayed on the grid, and got retirement plan contributions, etc.
However, I'll also say that we chose to pay for really high-quality after school care, including the program I now work in. And it was actually very beneficial to my kids. Not every hour, but they got piano lessons, martial arts classes, painting lessons, nature walks, chess lessons and games with peers, homework help from the Knowledgeable 20 Year Olds instead of dumb old mum & dad, etc.
It also gave them a tight group of friends outside of their schools. (We call 'em daycare cousins) which helped the years the school dynamics sucked.
What I work for in my program -- which doesn't happen every day but we really do strive for it -- but is that our kids come in off the bus and they relax their shoulders. They hang out with caring teenagers and young adults who give them great intel.
Anyways, my point is...I love my kids and especially as you get older you do realize those years were precious and not without their losses. Working until 3:30 or 4 would have been great. But really good childcare is not a total loss. It does have benefits to both the child and the family.
To be honest, I was never at my best right after work and I'm glad my kids got the best of other caring adults for some of that time.
Also...in our program we run about 10-15% diagnosed neurodivergent kids. Many of these kids come out of school having heard all day what they did wrong over and over. Some of their parents are also under a lot of stress. I'm glad to have them in our classes where we can really see how great they are at things that don't fall into the school world.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:44 AM on February 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
We've talked about it over the years. My wife recognizes what she gave up professionally, and we're working on that, now that our youngest is in high school. At the same time, the ability to have one (or both) parents present so often for our kids was really, really important to us.
I took a lower-paying job than I could have, working at a college. As a result, all of us were together for their Christmas vacations from school, plus a lot of other days off. This was amazing time to share as a family, and we're close to our kids.
But as all of us humans in this family enter a new phase of life -- the kids hit high school and then college or beyond, and the adults no longer solely concerned with childcare -- we're all examining where we are in our life and trying to see what beneficial changes we can make. For a long time, we were entirely focused on the kids; now they're more self-sufficient, and we can refocus on ourselves. And that means polishing my wife's resume and networking and finding her a job outside the house again and letting her flex all the skills and experiences that she gained co-managing the tiny, fractious non-profit that its our family.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:46 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I took a lower-paying job than I could have, working at a college. As a result, all of us were together for their Christmas vacations from school, plus a lot of other days off. This was amazing time to share as a family, and we're close to our kids.
But as all of us humans in this family enter a new phase of life -- the kids hit high school and then college or beyond, and the adults no longer solely concerned with childcare -- we're all examining where we are in our life and trying to see what beneficial changes we can make. For a long time, we were entirely focused on the kids; now they're more self-sufficient, and we can refocus on ourselves. And that means polishing my wife's resume and networking and finding her a job outside the house again and letting her flex all the skills and experiences that she gained co-managing the tiny, fractious non-profit that its our family.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:46 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's this woman I know, a friend of a good friend, who stayed home to birth and raise her kids on the condition that her husband would pay her 1/4 of his salary on top of covering everything else that they would have paid for together or separately under normal circumstances (household expenses, vacations, hair appointments, etc.). So she was getting $1500 a month just to set aside for herself, instead of subsisting on room and board like most stay at home parents do. She said, if we can't afford for him to pay me that while covering everything else, then we can't afford for me to stay home. And apparently she was unhappy with that arrangement because she felt she should have asked for equal retirement account contributions for them both.
Kind of blew my mind when I heard about it, because of how much sense it made, and because of how even this arrangement barely compensates for the costs she was expected to bear alone for the joint decision of having a child.
posted by MiraK at 9:56 AM on February 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Kind of blew my mind when I heard about it, because of how much sense it made, and because of how even this arrangement barely compensates for the costs she was expected to bear alone for the joint decision of having a child.
posted by MiraK at 9:56 AM on February 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Most kids (including mine are I guess what you call 'latchkey', because they are more than old enough to watch themselves at about 8 years old.
Sorry-not-sorry for commenting a lot in this thread but I just have to...this depends so much. My kids would not have been ready at that age. My older son did use public transit on his own at almost-10 and was very responsible but being home alone for 2.5-3 hours would have given him a lot of time to get into trouble (school ends at 3:15.)
But more to the point...when my kids were mostly that age, my job was 1hr 15 min away by transit, tied to a once-every-30-min train. My husband's was further away although he was driving. So if our 8 year old got home and had a problem, we would have been really screwed.
It's quite different if you're working from home or are 10-15 minutes away. If you're working from home, your child is not alone, just unoccupied. If they forget their code or a key or shatter their cellphone, you're there or not far.
Also, jobs are not all the same. Some people can be accessible to their kids via cell phone and some can't.
That's why a societal care system is important and why I felt like this was worth a mention.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:00 AM on February 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sorry-not-sorry for commenting a lot in this thread but I just have to...this depends so much. My kids would not have been ready at that age. My older son did use public transit on his own at almost-10 and was very responsible but being home alone for 2.5-3 hours would have given him a lot of time to get into trouble (school ends at 3:15.)
But more to the point...when my kids were mostly that age, my job was 1hr 15 min away by transit, tied to a once-every-30-min train. My husband's was further away although he was driving. So if our 8 year old got home and had a problem, we would have been really screwed.
It's quite different if you're working from home or are 10-15 minutes away. If you're working from home, your child is not alone, just unoccupied. If they forget their code or a key or shatter their cellphone, you're there or not far.
Also, jobs are not all the same. Some people can be accessible to their kids via cell phone and some can't.
That's why a societal care system is important and why I felt like this was worth a mention.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:00 AM on February 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
MiraK: ... she felt she should have asked for equal retirement account contributions....
Only fair!
posted by wenestvedt at 10:26 AM on February 27, 2023
Only fair!
posted by wenestvedt at 10:26 AM on February 27, 2023
Maybe they don't want to be working specifically, but they do want something productive to do with their time.
That's exactly my point: most of our time is not our own. We have to be at work. Schooling, currently, is a giant arrangement to accommodate and facilitate that.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:47 AM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's exactly my point: most of our time is not our own. We have to be at work. Schooling, currently, is a giant arrangement to accommodate and facilitate that.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:47 AM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is so infuriating because it's been this bad for so damn long. I struggled to find afterschool care for my kids in the 90s and it was nearly impossible. Here we are thirty years later and it hasn't changed, despite lobbying, despite begging, despite three generations now of exhausted and resentful parents, despite going on four generations of either too young latchkey kids or kids parked in underfunded overcrowded and sometimes downright scary afterschool programs*. It's beyond infuriating. I have no words. This should have been solved by now and I'm so sorry that instead, it's exactly the same or, in many cases, even worse.
* my son ended up in a creepily Christian after school program because it was the only one available in that rural Maryland school district. They used school district buses to get the kids there and I thought, as I often did, about trying to stop the use of government funds for a religious enterprise but then, there wouldn't have been any afterschool options. Anyway, they gave him a plushie bear on its knees with it's hands sewn together in prayer. Horrible thing. He promptly set it up in a little altar in front of the upside down archie mcphee jesus nightlight and that was kind of terrible and great. I pulled him when I forgot the grocery list one time and he told me solemnly that it was the Satan Mommy inside me who made me forget things. I told him it was the Space Mommy but that was the end of that and my daughter became not only latchkey kid but child care. Which I did not want for her. They are now in their 30s and here we are, same damn issues only on hard mode this time because nobody can afford housing, let alone child care. I hate this fucking country.
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:54 AM on February 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
* my son ended up in a creepily Christian after school program because it was the only one available in that rural Maryland school district. They used school district buses to get the kids there and I thought, as I often did, about trying to stop the use of government funds for a religious enterprise but then, there wouldn't have been any afterschool options. Anyway, they gave him a plushie bear on its knees with it's hands sewn together in prayer. Horrible thing. He promptly set it up in a little altar in front of the upside down archie mcphee jesus nightlight and that was kind of terrible and great. I pulled him when I forgot the grocery list one time and he told me solemnly that it was the Satan Mommy inside me who made me forget things. I told him it was the Space Mommy but that was the end of that and my daughter became not only latchkey kid but child care. Which I did not want for her. They are now in their 30s and here we are, same damn issues only on hard mode this time because nobody can afford housing, let alone child care. I hate this fucking country.
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:54 AM on February 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
To better elaborate my maybe-obscure perspective: if we followed experience and research, schooling would not look much at all like it looks now, regarding schedule, structure, activities, or really most any facet. It only looks like it looks because it is both responding to and preparing children for a capitalistic work week. The need for "after school" care is because the daily time demands of work have increased but the school day has not, so school is being blamed for not keeping up and is asked to solve a problem not of its own making. Schooling is not just child care (it involves child care, of course, but is much more than only that), yet it is continually asked to solve all of the social problems for children that out-of-control capitalism creates.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:55 AM on February 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 10:55 AM on February 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, a lot of proposed solutions mentioned in this thread involve asking for more work from teachers. If you want teachers to work more, it's going to cost A LOT, not just in salary but working conditions and facilities and equipment and instructional support and etc. etc. Teachers are leaving the profession in droves, enrollment in undergraduate education degrees has plummeted nationwide, and pay and benefits are mostly lousy and stagnant. This is not a professional population ready to assume more work and responsibility, at all. It is a profession in crisis and collapse, actually.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:01 AM on February 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 11:01 AM on February 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
To better elaborate my maybe-obscure perspective: if we followed experience and research, schooling would not look much at all like it looks now, regarding schedule, structure, activities, or really most any facet.
Eh, I'm just not sure I agree. I think some of these problems are ones that school is creating, and I think people mostly like relatively structured intervals of learning. I'm only 45 and in my day, some kids still left jr high school for weeks to work in Mexico. They can't do that now; funding is based on butts in seats and not just enrollment. The bus thing? School created that problem. Schools consolidating into larger buildings and bulldozing neighborhood schools? Schools created that problem too.
We also got a test case - during COVID, and kids at home all day free to learn whenever was awful. People literally risked their own health (and to some degree their children's health) to leave their homes and get their kids back in the hands and watch of professional educators.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:59 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Eh, I'm just not sure I agree. I think some of these problems are ones that school is creating, and I think people mostly like relatively structured intervals of learning. I'm only 45 and in my day, some kids still left jr high school for weeks to work in Mexico. They can't do that now; funding is based on butts in seats and not just enrollment. The bus thing? School created that problem. Schools consolidating into larger buildings and bulldozing neighborhood schools? Schools created that problem too.
We also got a test case - during COVID, and kids at home all day free to learn whenever was awful. People literally risked their own health (and to some degree their children's health) to leave their homes and get their kids back in the hands and watch of professional educators.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:59 AM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is a profession in crisis and collapse, actually.
…which exactly the way most Republicans like it, so not much is going to get better in the near term. They’re gonna try to destroy the entire concept of public education just as soon as they think they can get away with it.
posted by aramaic at 12:02 PM on February 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
…which exactly the way most Republicans like it, so not much is going to get better in the near term. They’re gonna try to destroy the entire concept of public education just as soon as they think they can get away with it.
posted by aramaic at 12:02 PM on February 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
The need for "after school" care is because the daily time demands of work have increased but the school day has not
...maybe if you're comparing it to the standard of the 1950s, and for middle-class and up families with two parents. If we're talking about when compulsory schooling was introduced in the U.S., generally in the latter half of the 19th century, this would not be the case. The mere 40-hour workweek was a child of the New Deal, and of course the ability to manage without the contributions of formally or informally waged female labor has always been a privilege of the middle class or above. We were just a lot more accepting of younger children being unsupervised or casually or communally supervised back then, perhaps because it was poor children and families who were most affected.
posted by praemunire at 12:04 PM on February 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
...maybe if you're comparing it to the standard of the 1950s, and for middle-class and up families with two parents. If we're talking about when compulsory schooling was introduced in the U.S., generally in the latter half of the 19th century, this would not be the case. The mere 40-hour workweek was a child of the New Deal, and of course the ability to manage without the contributions of formally or informally waged female labor has always been a privilege of the middle class or above. We were just a lot more accepting of younger children being unsupervised or casually or communally supervised back then, perhaps because it was poor children and families who were most affected.
posted by praemunire at 12:04 PM on February 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
daily time demands of work have increased
I was thinking more plainly that it used to be possible for many to maintain a household on a single income and now for many even two incomes isn't sufficient. American public schooling was not designed for a culture where all adults caring for a child must work full-time. (and poor people have always, unfortunately, been left out of every version of this equation.)
posted by LooseFilter at 12:12 PM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was thinking more plainly that it used to be possible for many to maintain a household on a single income and now for many even two incomes isn't sufficient. American public schooling was not designed for a culture where all adults caring for a child must work full-time. (and poor people have always, unfortunately, been left out of every version of this equation.)
posted by LooseFilter at 12:12 PM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
American public schooling was not designed for a culture where all adults caring for a child must work full-time.
What I'm trying to say is that American public school was designed in a time when all urban adults could routinely be working 6 full days a week, and, while the rhythms of labor are different on a farm, a woman doing full-time domestic labor on a farm would not be reliably free to mind a five-year-old at 3 pm.
And when I say "the poor," I don't mean just "the wretchedly poor." I mean probably the majority of American families. (One can argue about where the cutoffs are, it's not hard-and-fast, but most people in the U.S. are not and have not historically been middle-class or better.)
I'm not just being pedantic here to be annoying; I really don't like the problem being framed as a problem for middle-class-and-up parents, because (even putting aside how ethically questionable that is) that will get us middle-class-and-up solutions, e.g., expansions of private-pay solutions.
posted by praemunire at 1:09 PM on February 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
What I'm trying to say is that American public school was designed in a time when all urban adults could routinely be working 6 full days a week, and, while the rhythms of labor are different on a farm, a woman doing full-time domestic labor on a farm would not be reliably free to mind a five-year-old at 3 pm.
And when I say "the poor," I don't mean just "the wretchedly poor." I mean probably the majority of American families. (One can argue about where the cutoffs are, it's not hard-and-fast, but most people in the U.S. are not and have not historically been middle-class or better.)
I'm not just being pedantic here to be annoying; I really don't like the problem being framed as a problem for middle-class-and-up parents, because (even putting aside how ethically questionable that is) that will get us middle-class-and-up solutions, e.g., expansions of private-pay solutions.
posted by praemunire at 1:09 PM on February 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
I really don't like the problem being framed as a problem for middle-class-and-up parents
I don’t think I’m framing it that way; at least, I’m not trying to. I think our points are orthogonal to one another.
posted by LooseFilter at 1:38 PM on February 27, 2023
I don’t think I’m framing it that way; at least, I’m not trying to. I think our points are orthogonal to one another.
posted by LooseFilter at 1:38 PM on February 27, 2023
I don’t think I’m framing it that way; at least, I’m not trying to. I think our points are orthogonal to one another.
When you characterize it as a relatively new problem, arising out of a new mismatch between school and work hours, you implicitly are. This problem wasn't previously solved by paying men enough to afford to keep female labor at home and thus can't be solved just by raising salaries (as someone proposed above). It often just wasn't solved, or solved in ways that are now foreign to us but which might have something to teach us. I'm not trying to pick on you for being classist or reactionary, truly, I'm just saying that the framing is liable to mislead.
posted by praemunire at 6:01 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
When you characterize it as a relatively new problem, arising out of a new mismatch between school and work hours, you implicitly are. This problem wasn't previously solved by paying men enough to afford to keep female labor at home and thus can't be solved just by raising salaries (as someone proposed above). It often just wasn't solved, or solved in ways that are now foreign to us but which might have something to teach us. I'm not trying to pick on you for being classist or reactionary, truly, I'm just saying that the framing is liable to mislead.
posted by praemunire at 6:01 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am a teacher. I love my job and am completely exhausted by it too. I stay after a few days a week for an extra hour or two doing school tutoring and sponsoring clubs. For years I worked in a district that didn't pay us at all for this; now I work in a place that pays a bit extra, which is nice but pocket change. Being a good teacher means giving my best, doing a bit beyond but ultimately focusing on giving my best during school hours to my six classes with up to 32 students in each. And I work in a "fancy" district!!
Kids already spend too much time in school doing dumb shit. The idea of a super long school day is a nightmare: not good for teachers and way worse for kids who need and deserve a break. I can guarantee you that many teachers would quit if they were required to work these crazy 10-12 hour work days people are suggesting. Like seriously, wtf?! Again, teaching is amazing but we educators already fear getting shot at school and so many fear being fired for even mentioning the word gay, charged with a felony for sharing a non-approved book, and more. Please do not place this societal burden on our shoulders. Yes, kids need to be safe and cared for and, yes, parents have it hard and it's unfair but a much, much longer school day is not the solution.
posted by smorgasbord at 9:06 PM on February 27, 2023 [13 favorites]
Kids already spend too much time in school doing dumb shit. The idea of a super long school day is a nightmare: not good for teachers and way worse for kids who need and deserve a break. I can guarantee you that many teachers would quit if they were required to work these crazy 10-12 hour work days people are suggesting. Like seriously, wtf?! Again, teaching is amazing but we educators already fear getting shot at school and so many fear being fired for even mentioning the word gay, charged with a felony for sharing a non-approved book, and more. Please do not place this societal burden on our shoulders. Yes, kids need to be safe and cared for and, yes, parents have it hard and it's unfair but a much, much longer school day is not the solution.
posted by smorgasbord at 9:06 PM on February 27, 2023 [13 favorites]
I just used to go to after-school day care, already on my school campus, because my mom was always the last one to pick me up from school.
Really, there just needs to be a "please don't expect parents who have to work until 5 to be able to pick up a kid at 2-3 p.m. when school is done" option.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:04 AM on February 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Really, there just needs to be a "please don't expect parents who have to work until 5 to be able to pick up a kid at 2-3 p.m. when school is done" option.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:04 AM on February 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
@smorgasboard I appreciate your perspective and agree parents should definitely not expect teachers to work 10-12 hour days in order to provide continuous care while parents leave. Others may have said to is, but I simply think we should have 1.5x more teachers / aides (or more!) to provide that longer period of care. While I’m suggesting things that won’t happen, I’d also raise teacher / aide come by about 50-75%.
I do humbly disagree that kids couldn’t handle a longer day. I’m not an educator, either, so my perspective may be quite a bit less informed. But still, we shifted our daughter from a private Montessori school that offered great care from 8-5:30 (12 months a year) to a public school that does 8:15-2:25 only, with a paid after school program that accommodates about 5% of the school. One day a week the public school has a “minimum day” where school ends at noon. It still blows my mind that kids are successful with so few hours of actual education. Our public school has excellent ratings but it still seems like a big step down from our local private Montessori in many regards. Not that teachers should work more, we just need more of them.
posted by pkingdesign at 5:21 PM on February 28, 2023
I do humbly disagree that kids couldn’t handle a longer day. I’m not an educator, either, so my perspective may be quite a bit less informed. But still, we shifted our daughter from a private Montessori school that offered great care from 8-5:30 (12 months a year) to a public school that does 8:15-2:25 only, with a paid after school program that accommodates about 5% of the school. One day a week the public school has a “minimum day” where school ends at noon. It still blows my mind that kids are successful with so few hours of actual education. Our public school has excellent ratings but it still seems like a big step down from our local private Montessori in many regards. Not that teachers should work more, we just need more of them.
posted by pkingdesign at 5:21 PM on February 28, 2023
I used to work at a Montessori after-school program. The kids had their choice of studying or playing, and we served a snack (usually fruit and milk). It was really laid-back and I enjoyed it a lot, but then my hours at my main job changed and I had to quit. I had almost forgotten it until pkingdesign mentioned their kid’s school.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:01 PM on February 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:01 PM on February 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
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