Iraq, twenty years later
March 18, 2023 6:03 AM Subscribe
Mehdi Hasan addresses how Bush hasn't paid for that atrocity, and how it connects to Trumps victory and Putin's invasion. Hasan says the impetus behind the war was very much GWB, and GWB's is rehabilitated and shouldn't be.
Have said this before, will say it again -
On January 20th of 2002, a congressional investigation into the collapse of the Enron energy company announced that they were considering legal action to compel Dick Cheney to testify. Cheney invoked executive privilege.
Congress continued to push back for the rest of January.
On the last day of January, Congress announced that it would sue for access to Cheney's records.
Colin Powell delivered his speech about "weapons of mass destruction" to the UN only five days later.
Forget Bush - we need to go after Richard Fucking Cheney.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:19 AM on March 18, 2023 [47 favorites]
On January 20th of 2002, a congressional investigation into the collapse of the Enron energy company announced that they were considering legal action to compel Dick Cheney to testify. Cheney invoked executive privilege.
Congress continued to push back for the rest of January.
On the last day of January, Congress announced that it would sue for access to Cheney's records.
Colin Powell delivered his speech about "weapons of mass destruction" to the UN only five days later.
Forget Bush - we need to go after Richard Fucking Cheney.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:19 AM on March 18, 2023 [47 favorites]
I'm not sure that Bush is "rehabilitated" so much as it it is that compared to Trump, he actually looks a lot better in comparison. So he's been able to stay quiet, do his paintings, and look like a statesman in contrast to the current crop of republicans. He's more ignored than rehabilitated these days.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:31 AM on March 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:31 AM on March 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
last night i was out at a bar eating dinner and saw the chyrons scroll by that the international criminal court has issued a warrant for putins arrest and the first thought was well what about old painter of tub toes, mass murdering yankee George W Bush. I bet he goes to bed every night with a smile on his face and a conscience clear as a desert sky. the bastard
posted by dis_integration at 6:34 AM on March 18, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:34 AM on March 18, 2023 [26 favorites]
Dip Flash, what got lost in edits is that Bush's *reputation* is rehabilitated, not the man himself.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:37 AM on March 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:37 AM on March 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Bush is « rehabilitated » only in the sense that Trump came up and was such a shit show of incompetence and deliberate pointless cruelty and reality denial that the contrast makes Bush who left quietly looks « good » in comparaison.
Also, and I might be forgetting things, the main things I remember from Bush is the bad environmental policy, the stupid & evil war on terror/Irak invasion and a steadfast refusal of social progress. But that last item is a big contrast with the current Republican drive to ROLLBACK social progress. I’m sure I’m forgetting things and it’ll end up they they were undoing progress, but from memory that’s what I got.
It’s impossible to conceive Cheney is not guilty of massive crimes and frauds though.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:38 AM on March 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
Also, and I might be forgetting things, the main things I remember from Bush is the bad environmental policy, the stupid & evil war on terror/Irak invasion and a steadfast refusal of social progress. But that last item is a big contrast with the current Republican drive to ROLLBACK social progress. I’m sure I’m forgetting things and it’ll end up they they were undoing progress, but from memory that’s what I got.
It’s impossible to conceive Cheney is not guilty of massive crimes and frauds though.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:38 AM on March 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
Oh, NYT, never change
Headline today (I can't bring myself to link to the scum that wrote it)
20 Years After U.S. Invasion, Iraq Is a Freer Place, but Not a Hopeful One
Conversations with dozens of Iraqis offer a portrait of a nation that is rich in oil, hobbled by corruption and unable to guarantee its citizens’ safety.
(and by "never change" , I mean," never say 'we are culpable in promoting and excusing genocide, when it's our people doing the genociding' ")
posted by lalochezia at 6:58 AM on March 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
Headline today (I can't bring myself to link to the scum that wrote it)
20 Years After U.S. Invasion, Iraq Is a Freer Place, but Not a Hopeful One
Conversations with dozens of Iraqis offer a portrait of a nation that is rich in oil, hobbled by corruption and unable to guarantee its citizens’ safety.
(and by "never change" , I mean," never say 'we are culpable in promoting and excusing genocide, when it's our people doing the genociding' ")
posted by lalochezia at 6:58 AM on March 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
A cost to the US of $860 billion, with future costs pushing it to almost $3 trillion and more than half a million dead. Breakdown.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:05 AM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:05 AM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
And I read that article in the nyt, which, compared to the headline is ..... "nuanced" (not a high bar at all!). But fuck them for using that headline!
posted by lalochezia at 7:36 AM on March 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by lalochezia at 7:36 AM on March 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
20 years on, should George W. Bush be on trial for Iraq? Not just Yes - Fuck Yeah. By conservative estimates, well over 125,000 Iraq civilians died. Iraqi soldiers died. 4,431 American military casualties, over 30,000 wounded. Iraq treasures were looted. Oil companies and military contractors profited obscenely. Billions vanished. It's not Bush or Cheney; they are both war criminals and should be prosecuted, although when I protested that war, my sign said Indict Cheney 1st.
posted by theora55 at 7:50 AM on March 18, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 7:50 AM on March 18, 2023 [19 favorites]
> Forget Bush - we need to go after Richard Fucking Cheney.
Friendly reminder that Cheney was the chair of Bush’s VP nominating committee. He picked himself for the job.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:51 AM on March 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
Friendly reminder that Cheney was the chair of Bush’s VP nominating committee. He picked himself for the job.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:51 AM on March 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
This still makes my blood boil.
And it is strange to observe that the US seems to be able to indict a president who paid hush money to a stripper -- and tried but failed to overthrow democracy -- but was not able to indict a president who committed multiple crimes against humanity.
Obviously, it wasn't Bush alone. Most members of his administration are equally culpable. It was never a secret that they were lying, because far too many people were in on the lie to keep it secret. We laughed when Kellyanne Conway talked about alternative facts, but remember this:
posted by mumimor at 8:02 AM on March 18, 2023 [38 favorites]
And it is strange to observe that the US seems to be able to indict a president who paid hush money to a stripper -- and tried but failed to overthrow democracy -- but was not able to indict a president who committed multiple crimes against humanity.
Obviously, it wasn't Bush alone. Most members of his administration are equally culpable. It was never a secret that they were lying, because far too many people were in on the lie to keep it secret. We laughed when Kellyanne Conway talked about alternative facts, but remember this:
The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' [...] 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors...and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do'.They did indeed create a new reality. This reality. With millions of refugees, Guantanamo, failed states all over the place, an aggressive Russia, less liberal democracies than 2008, more terrorism, more support of the hard right than in my entire life. And not least: a burning planet. I have this gut feeling that a lot of what we have been seeing the last two decades including the current war in Ukraine is about keeping fossil fuels relevant in the world economy, even as they are moving us towards mass destruction. I don't believe in a grand conspiracy, more in the possibility that a lot of people are making decisions that will protect their wealth and sources of income, regardless of the consequences.
posted by mumimor at 8:02 AM on March 18, 2023 [38 favorites]
All presidents have blood on their hands. Even in peacetime, they are called upon to order men to their deaths, or order them to kill others. Whatever blood is on Trump's hands is from his continuing to carry out policies enacted by George W. Bush and continued by Bush's successor. For all the horrors of the Trump administration, they do not include involving initiating mass murder on anything like the scale is was carried out under Bush and Cheney. In fact, compared to Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton and Obama, the Trump administration had a fairly light body count. In fact, I'll bet GW Bush and Cheney slept well during the last administration, knowing that Trump was soaking up the outrage.
posted by Modest House at 8:12 AM on March 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Modest House at 8:12 AM on March 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
"Even in peacetime, [presidents] are called upon to order men to their deaths, or order them to kill others."
They're not "called upon." They elect to do it.
"Whatever blood is on Trump's hands is from his continuing to carry out policies enacted by George W. Bush and continued by Bush's successor. For all the horrors of the Trump administration, they do not include involving initiating mass murder on anything like the scale is was carried out under Bush and Cheney."
They did not elect to initiate mass murder because their constituents were slightly different and their money was better spent on different pork.
"In fact, compared to Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton and Obama, the Trump administration had a fairly light body count."
They busied themselves with cruelty theater with the "wall" and the bear-baiting bullshit with immigrants, women, LGBTQ+ and so on because that was what appealed to the base they were wooing. They weren't courting inDUSTry, as Trump likes to pronounce it, as hard as were previous administrations.
"In fact, I'll bet GW Bush and Cheney slept well during the last administration, knowing that Trump was soaking up the outrage."
Orly. I bet GW Bush and Cheney sleep well all the time no matter what's going on because they do not GAF about outrage because outrage doesn't touch them.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:23 AM on March 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
They're not "called upon." They elect to do it.
"Whatever blood is on Trump's hands is from his continuing to carry out policies enacted by George W. Bush and continued by Bush's successor. For all the horrors of the Trump administration, they do not include involving initiating mass murder on anything like the scale is was carried out under Bush and Cheney."
They did not elect to initiate mass murder because their constituents were slightly different and their money was better spent on different pork.
"In fact, compared to Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton and Obama, the Trump administration had a fairly light body count."
They busied themselves with cruelty theater with the "wall" and the bear-baiting bullshit with immigrants, women, LGBTQ+ and so on because that was what appealed to the base they were wooing. They weren't courting inDUSTry, as Trump likes to pronounce it, as hard as were previous administrations.
"In fact, I'll bet GW Bush and Cheney slept well during the last administration, knowing that Trump was soaking up the outrage."
Orly. I bet GW Bush and Cheney sleep well all the time no matter what's going on because they do not GAF about outrage because outrage doesn't touch them.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:23 AM on March 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
They did indeed create a new reality. This reality. With millions of refugees, Guantanamo, failed states all over the place, an aggressive Russia, less liberal democracies than 2008, more terrorism, more support of the hard right than in my entire life.
Jon Stewart:
That's some catch, that Catch-22. It's the best there is.
Boys and their fucking toys. What even is that.
posted by flabdablet at 9:43 AM on March 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
Jon Stewart:
Being the world's policeman is a big job. Because the world is a dangerous place filled with many dangerous weapons, and here's where it gets tricky: we are also the world's largest weapons dealer. While we are personally enforcing global security agreements, we are also seeding the world with Global Chaos starter kits.That point has seen high rotation in my own mind over the last few days, as our otherwise moderately sane Australian Government rushes headlong into forking over almost four hundred billion dollars - more money than we have ever spent before on a defence purchase - for nuclear powered submarines we've done just fine without so far, boats intended to protect us from Chinese aggression that doing shit like spending hundreds of billions on submarines is only ever going to make more likely.
That's some catch, that Catch-22. It's the best there is.
Boys and their fucking toys. What even is that.
posted by flabdablet at 9:43 AM on March 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
In fact, compared to Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton and Obama, the Trump administration had a fairly light body count. In fact, I'll bet GW Bush and Cheney slept well during the last administration, knowing that Trump was soaking up the outrage.
remember! we must do genocides with propriety, not in an uncouth manner, according to the rules
posted by lalochezia at 9:45 AM on March 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
remember! we must do genocides with propriety, not in an uncouth manner, according to the rules
posted by lalochezia at 9:45 AM on March 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
I have this gut feeling that a lot of what we have been seeing the last two decades including the current war in Ukraine is about keeping fossil fuels relevant in the world economy
Not to send you down a rabbithole, but your gut feeling is weirdly accurate if you've never before heard of the (nakedly genocidal and imperialistic) Project for the New American Century, whose membership is oilmoney oilmoney oilmoney.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 10:23 AM on March 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
Not to send you down a rabbithole, but your gut feeling is weirdly accurate if you've never before heard of the (nakedly genocidal and imperialistic) Project for the New American Century, whose membership is oilmoney oilmoney oilmoney.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 10:23 AM on March 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
Not to send you down a rabbithole
Now I'm scared of clicking the link...
posted by mumimor at 10:33 AM on March 18, 2023
Now I'm scared of clicking the link...
posted by mumimor at 10:33 AM on March 18, 2023
Trump actually didn't start any wars, though he could have. It's possible that he would have if someone (I forget who) hadn't convinced him it would he cool to have an image as a peace-maker. I have an unprovable feeling that Trump has some practical social instincts and likes winning. He knew he was good at talking people into deals that were good for him and bad for them, while being a military leader was out of his realm so he played to his strengths, until he forgot and tried to lead a coup.
On the other hand, Bush started a war. Cheney's got a piece of that, but I doubt Cheney was in a position to start a war if Bush was opposed.
I think part of the problem might be that Bush doesn't look like a bad guy. He strikes me as looking weak and unfocused. Even when he's angry, he doesn't look scary. This goes to show that I shouldn't trust my visual impressions, but it may also partially explain why people now see him as a cuddly old man.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:41 AM on March 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
On the other hand, Bush started a war. Cheney's got a piece of that, but I doubt Cheney was in a position to start a war if Bush was opposed.
I think part of the problem might be that Bush doesn't look like a bad guy. He strikes me as looking weak and unfocused. Even when he's angry, he doesn't look scary. This goes to show that I shouldn't trust my visual impressions, but it may also partially explain why people now see him as a cuddly old man.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:41 AM on March 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Me arguing with somebody on the internet, March 8, 2003
> I see it more of a repeat of the victory in 1991, unless one argued that
> it will be even easier because Iraq has much less military power now
> than then.
Sure, we'll bomb the same crap we bombed in 1991, secure the same
empty desert we secured in 1991. What follows will be the
"interesting" bit.
I think chances are reasonable that Baghdad will go over to our side
without too much hubbub, fwiw.
But just like on one level we were winning the Vietnam war in 1969,
the parallels are that we are pursuing a tactical-offensive within a
strategic-defensive policy.
Harry G Summers' _On Strategy_ is an excellent summary of the
difficulties this poses:
Results therefrom: "Complete Absence of Decision"
We can't even garrison Lebanon & Saudi Arabia without getting our
asses car-bombed.
For us to move to the strategic offensive in the region will involve a
de facto declaration of war on Islam.
All the bombing we did in Indochina couldn't convince the N Vietnamese
*people* that they were in the wrong for wanting to "liberate" S
Vietnam. Even without Chinese intervention, any occupation of Hanoi
would have eventually failed (or we'd still be there today, hunting
down commie terrorists like in the Phillippines).
60% of the people of the US, something like 90% of the people of the
world are against unilateral US intervention in Iraq. The longer an
occupation-by-force continues, the more precarious our position will
become.
Where are we going to find compliant Iraqis who will be our friends?
Who's going to protect their throats from being slit by extremists in
the middle of the night?
The best this Iraq thing is going to turn out will be like
Afghanistan, where we have a friendly bunch of quasi-friendly folks
ensconced in the capital, but who can't go out at night.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:21 AM on March 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
> I see it more of a repeat of the victory in 1991, unless one argued that
> it will be even easier because Iraq has much less military power now
> than then.
Sure, we'll bomb the same crap we bombed in 1991, secure the same
empty desert we secured in 1991. What follows will be the
"interesting" bit.
I think chances are reasonable that Baghdad will go over to our side
without too much hubbub, fwiw.
But just like on one level we were winning the Vietnam war in 1969,
the parallels are that we are pursuing a tactical-offensive within a
strategic-defensive policy.
Harry G Summers' _On Strategy_ is an excellent summary of the
difficulties this poses:
Results therefrom: "Complete Absence of Decision"
We can't even garrison Lebanon & Saudi Arabia without getting our
asses car-bombed.
For us to move to the strategic offensive in the region will involve a
de facto declaration of war on Islam.
All the bombing we did in Indochina couldn't convince the N Vietnamese
*people* that they were in the wrong for wanting to "liberate" S
Vietnam. Even without Chinese intervention, any occupation of Hanoi
would have eventually failed (or we'd still be there today, hunting
down commie terrorists like in the Phillippines).
60% of the people of the US, something like 90% of the people of the
world are against unilateral US intervention in Iraq. The longer an
occupation-by-force continues, the more precarious our position will
become.
Where are we going to find compliant Iraqis who will be our friends?
Who's going to protect their throats from being slit by extremists in
the middle of the night?
The best this Iraq thing is going to turn out will be like
Afghanistan, where we have a friendly bunch of quasi-friendly folks
ensconced in the capital, but who can't go out at night.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:21 AM on March 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
The rehabilitation of GWB is infuriating beyond belief, but we’re right now living through the rewriting of pandemic mitigation and mask efficacy in popular memory *while the pandemic and its effects are still killing thousands in the US weekly and even hospitalizing children in record numbers still*.
I’m honestly not sure how to live my middle age and elder age years in a world that is actively hostile to truth when lives are being lost. And the effects of ongoing climate catastrophe are just now beginning to affect the places I live. Not to mention the resurgence of gay and trans genocide advocacy and all the utterly mind boggling lies used to justify it
So justice for the Bush junta is a lost cause. Many other existential threats have superseded even worry about that at this point
posted by Skwirl at 11:23 AM on March 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
I’m honestly not sure how to live my middle age and elder age years in a world that is actively hostile to truth when lives are being lost. And the effects of ongoing climate catastrophe are just now beginning to affect the places I live. Not to mention the resurgence of gay and trans genocide advocacy and all the utterly mind boggling lies used to justify it
So justice for the Bush junta is a lost cause. Many other existential threats have superseded even worry about that at this point
posted by Skwirl at 11:23 AM on March 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
"In fact, compared to Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton and Obama, the Trump administration had a fairly light body count."
The purpose of Trumpism is to turn externally directed violence inward. If previous presidents, including Obama, were primarily agents of American imperialism, Trump is the first agent of American fascism.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:29 AM on March 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
The purpose of Trumpism is to turn externally directed violence inward. If previous presidents, including Obama, were primarily agents of American imperialism, Trump is the first agent of American fascism.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:29 AM on March 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
…I doubt Cheney was in a position to start a war if Bush was opposed.
James McMurtry begs to differ.
Also; Bush? Cheney? I’m old enough to remember Kissinger! But I’m sure none of them have anything to do with the Republican opposition to the ICC.
posted by TedW at 11:41 AM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
James McMurtry begs to differ.
Also; Bush? Cheney? I’m old enough to remember Kissinger! But I’m sure none of them have anything to do with the Republican opposition to the ICC.
posted by TedW at 11:41 AM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
…the Trump administration had a fairly light body count.
Are we counting excess COVID deaths?
posted by TedW at 11:44 AM on March 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
Are we counting excess COVID deaths?
posted by TedW at 11:44 AM on March 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
TedW, "Cheney's Toy" is a fine song, but it isn't evidence. It isn't even an argument.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:31 PM on March 18, 2023
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:31 PM on March 18, 2023
Also; Bush? Cheney? I’m old enough to remember Kissinger! But I’m sure none of them have anything to do with the Republican opposition to the ICC.
First, I agree with what you are saying. Kissinger should definitely be charged as well.
BUT. there is a difference, which is that there was an international consensus among the western nations that communism was a grave threat when the US engaged in Vietnam. And as a European I can understand part of that, though I can't accept the US role in the war in Vietnam. There is a lot more to be said about this, but not here.
There was literally no legitimate reason for the war in Iraq. At all. Saddam Hussein was a terrible dictator, but Saudi Arabia would have been a more legitimate target, given that they sponsored the 9-11 attacks. Pakistan would have been a more legitimate target, given that they protected Osama bin Laden. I'm not saying the US or anyone should have attacked those countries, just that there are any number of authoritarian rulers in the world, and some of them sponsored 9-11, others didn't. Iraq didn't.
posted by mumimor at 12:42 PM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
First, I agree with what you are saying. Kissinger should definitely be charged as well.
BUT. there is a difference, which is that there was an international consensus among the western nations that communism was a grave threat when the US engaged in Vietnam. And as a European I can understand part of that, though I can't accept the US role in the war in Vietnam. There is a lot more to be said about this, but not here.
There was literally no legitimate reason for the war in Iraq. At all. Saddam Hussein was a terrible dictator, but Saudi Arabia would have been a more legitimate target, given that they sponsored the 9-11 attacks. Pakistan would have been a more legitimate target, given that they protected Osama bin Laden. I'm not saying the US or anyone should have attacked those countries, just that there are any number of authoritarian rulers in the world, and some of them sponsored 9-11, others didn't. Iraq didn't.
posted by mumimor at 12:42 PM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
To expand on the above: as I understand it, the Bush administration propaganda was that establishing a liberal democracy in Iraq would inspire other Arab nations to turn toward liberal democracy. But every single thing the Bush administration did as occupiers in Iraq worked against that concept. First of all by organising the Iraqi government along tribal/religious lines, and second by sending in all the non-traceable cash as linked above by theora55, which actively encouraged corruption at every single level of government, from President to busboy. There is more. But goddamn.
On a more speculative note: my own government was one of those who embraced the US strategy and joined the "Coalition of the Willing". My perception is that the spirit of corruption spread into this government, in one of the least corrupt countries in the world. I think I could prove this if it was my line of study, but here and now it is more based on anecdata. My point is: if you engage with criminals, even from a distance, you will be engaged in criminality.
posted by mumimor at 12:56 PM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
On a more speculative note: my own government was one of those who embraced the US strategy and joined the "Coalition of the Willing". My perception is that the spirit of corruption spread into this government, in one of the least corrupt countries in the world. I think I could prove this if it was my line of study, but here and now it is more based on anecdata. My point is: if you engage with criminals, even from a distance, you will be engaged in criminality.
posted by mumimor at 12:56 PM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
In fact, the decision to invade Iraq stemmed from the pursuit of global primacy. Primacy directs the United States to fund a massive military and scatter it across the globe for an essentially preventive purpose: to dissuade other countries from rising and challenging American dominance. Promising to keep costs low, primacy assumes that U.S. hegemony will not engender resistance—and strikes hard to snuff out any that appears. It sees global dominance almost as an end in itself, disregarding the abundant strategic alternatives that wide oceans, friendly neighbors, and nuclear deterrents afford the United States
posted by infini at 1:10 PM on March 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by infini at 1:10 PM on March 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
My take on the invasion was that the 1990s sanctions regime was coming to an end and the general GOP power structure didn't want to see the French and Russians come back in to get Saddam & Sons back on their feet, when we could do our own neocolonialism after effecting regime change in Baghdad.
W : Iraq :: Z : Ukraine, if you squint enough at least
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:34 PM on March 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
W : Iraq :: Z : Ukraine, if you squint enough at least
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:34 PM on March 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Trump actually didn't start any wars, though he could have.
"Reckless Endangerment: President Trump and the Use of Military Force"
posted by clavdivs at 1:59 PM on March 18, 2023
"Reckless Endangerment: President Trump and the Use of Military Force"
posted by clavdivs at 1:59 PM on March 18, 2023
I feel like right now we're going to come up right between the justice system and the national embarrassment of prosecuting a former president. What would a reckoning for Bush even look like?
posted by Selena777 at 2:10 PM on March 18, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 2:10 PM on March 18, 2023
There's a new episode of Frontline that is (nominatively) about the recent bank failures, and which overlaps with this quite nicely.
posted by rhizome at 2:54 PM on March 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 2:54 PM on March 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
A cost to the US of $860 billion, with future costs pushing it to almost $3 trillion and more than half a million dead.
This is why we can't have nice things. Medicare for All Would Save the U.S. Trillions
Dwight D. Eisenhower, Cross of Iron speech, April 16, 1953:
This is why we can't have nice things. Medicare for All Would Save the U.S. Trillions
Dwight D. Eisenhower, Cross of Iron speech, April 16, 1953:
This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people.posted by kirkaracha at 4:36 PM on March 18, 2023 [20 favorites]
This is, I repeat, the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
To expand on the above: as I understand it, the Bush administration propaganda was that establishing a liberal democracy in Iraq would inspire other Arab nations to turn toward liberal democracy.
Leading a multinational Marshall Plan-style rebuilding of Afghanistan was the only possible way something like that would've worked.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:39 PM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Leading a multinational Marshall Plan-style rebuilding of Afghanistan was the only possible way something like that would've worked.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:39 PM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
For those of you who'd like to give your surprised faces a bit of a rest: Judith Miller is now the Dean of Iraq War Apologetics for Prager U.
(I made up that title but that's exactly what she does there. )
posted by klanawa at 5:05 PM on March 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
(I made up that title but that's exactly what she does there. )
posted by klanawa at 5:05 PM on March 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
the US did allow the war in Ukraine
By not fucking jailing Dick Cheney
and handing him over to the Hague
Putin saw that war crimes are not crimes
he had already done a Grozny
but after Cheney, he did a genocide in Georgia
and he knew no one would come for him
posted by eustatic at 9:17 PM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
By not fucking jailing Dick Cheney
and handing him over to the Hague
Putin saw that war crimes are not crimes
he had already done a Grozny
but after Cheney, he did a genocide in Georgia
and he knew no one would come for him
posted by eustatic at 9:17 PM on March 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Is the press trustworthy? Can we believe what reporters and journalists tell us? Judith Miller, Pulitzer Prize-winning former reporter for the New York Times, explains why Americans' trust in the news media has fallen, and why that matters. Donate today to PragerU!
believing in hell super hard rn
posted by away for regrooving at 12:08 AM on March 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
believing in hell super hard rn
posted by away for regrooving at 12:08 AM on March 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Trump actually didn't start any wars, though he could have.
He certainly TRIED to start one on 1/6/2021.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:03 AM on March 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
He certainly TRIED to start one on 1/6/2021.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:03 AM on March 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
And Joe Biden is happy to avoid signing on to the ICC: No AMERICAN should be....
The Dixie Chicks tried to tell us about Bush's war.
The Beat Goes On.
posted by mule98J at 7:38 AM on March 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Dixie Chicks tried to tell us about Bush's war.
The Beat Goes On.
posted by mule98J at 7:38 AM on March 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Nobody at the top truly goes down unless they fuck with the wallets of other people at the top.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:00 AM on March 19, 2023
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:00 AM on March 19, 2023
This guy:
"The US Govt & my boss at the time Colin Powell did not lie about WMD. The word “lie” involves intent. There was no intent; we got it wrong. We misinterpreted intelligence & assumed Saddam was hiding WMD when he was hiding his lack of WMD. No more, no less."
My response:
"You're full of shit. Cooked up by Cheney. If they weren't so "EXEC PRIV: Energy" might give em a bone of trust, but nah. They wanna act like secret dictatorial dudes in quest for oil? You can get slagged with it. Like dead Iraqi kids got slagged with US missiles/sanctions."
posted by symbioid at 11:00 AM on March 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
"The US Govt & my boss at the time Colin Powell did not lie about WMD. The word “lie” involves intent. There was no intent; we got it wrong. We misinterpreted intelligence & assumed Saddam was hiding WMD when he was hiding his lack of WMD. No more, no less."
My response:
"You're full of shit. Cooked up by Cheney. If they weren't so "EXEC PRIV: Energy" might give em a bone of trust, but nah. They wanna act like secret dictatorial dudes in quest for oil? You can get slagged with it. Like dead Iraqi kids got slagged with US missiles/sanctions."
posted by symbioid at 11:00 AM on March 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
My own loss of any confidence that corporate media had any vestige of public interest left in it came when all of them just accepted the Administration's claim that Saddam had "kicked out" the weapons inspectors when in fact it was the Administration that pulled them out.
Nobody who had been paying any attention at all to what Hans Blix had actually been reporting believed this. I distinctly remember my own feeling of nauseated astonishment when the press just started parroting the "kicked out" phrasing as if it were true, because at that point it became perfectly clear that W was desperately seeking even the thinnest of plausible pretexts for a literal crusade against Iraq and that the press were going to do nothing whatsoever to push back against him.
Commercial media make a lot of money out of a nice juicy war. Shame about all those folks getting killed but hey, night missile attacks make great TV.
posted by flabdablet at 11:13 AM on March 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Nobody who had been paying any attention at all to what Hans Blix had actually been reporting believed this. I distinctly remember my own feeling of nauseated astonishment when the press just started parroting the "kicked out" phrasing as if it were true, because at that point it became perfectly clear that W was desperately seeking even the thinnest of plausible pretexts for a literal crusade against Iraq and that the press were going to do nothing whatsoever to push back against him.
Commercial media make a lot of money out of a nice juicy war. Shame about all those folks getting killed but hey, night missile attacks make great TV.
posted by flabdablet at 11:13 AM on March 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
"The US Govt & my boss at the time Colin Powell did not lie about WMD. The word “lie” involves intent. There was no intent; we got it wrong. We misinterpreted intelligence & assumed Saddam was hiding WMD when he was hiding his lack of WMD. No more, no less."
One of the comments claim Hans Blix believed the lies until February. I have the book Blix wrote that proves the commenter is wrong. But the entire US establishment went with the Bush administration, as did a large number of other countries, "the coalition of the willing".
One reason Hillary Clinton lost to Barack Obama was that she supported the lies. She didn't have to, but she did. Everyone, including all career officials in the US government knew they were lies. I still don't entirely understand why the media and most of the Democrats went along with them.
posted by mumimor at 11:48 AM on March 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of the comments claim Hans Blix believed the lies until February. I have the book Blix wrote that proves the commenter is wrong. But the entire US establishment went with the Bush administration, as did a large number of other countries, "the coalition of the willing".
One reason Hillary Clinton lost to Barack Obama was that she supported the lies. She didn't have to, but she did. Everyone, including all career officials in the US government knew they were lies. I still don't entirely understand why the media and most of the Democrats went along with them.
posted by mumimor at 11:48 AM on March 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
One reason Hillary Clinton lost to Barack Obama was that she supported the lies. She didn't have to, but she did. Everyone, including all career officials in the US government knew they were lies. I still don't entirely understand why the media and most of the Democrats went along with them.
After 9/11 I remember a kind of particular frenzy where anybody not 100% intent on kicking "terrorist"-ass and "supporting" the military was seen as soft, unamerican and unelectable.
I don't know why the media bought it, probably because the fact they were dependant on access and leaks/anonymous sources because it's all classified, so this could not ever be anything other than a propaganda operation. If you refuse to tow the line, you lose all your access, then you have nothing to report on.
For the Dems holding office, once the media bought it I'm sure somebody had polls showing they had to get in line with it or lose x percentage of their vote. Hard to believe they were this naive about it.
It's not particularly courageous, but I'm sure they justified it to themselves by thinking "better me with meek support than an R fully-onboard".
posted by WaterAndPixels at 12:18 PM on March 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
After 9/11 I remember a kind of particular frenzy where anybody not 100% intent on kicking "terrorist"-ass and "supporting" the military was seen as soft, unamerican and unelectable.
I don't know why the media bought it, probably because the fact they were dependant on access and leaks/anonymous sources because it's all classified, so this could not ever be anything other than a propaganda operation. If you refuse to tow the line, you lose all your access, then you have nothing to report on.
For the Dems holding office, once the media bought it I'm sure somebody had polls showing they had to get in line with it or lose x percentage of their vote. Hard to believe they were this naive about it.
It's not particularly courageous, but I'm sure they justified it to themselves by thinking "better me with meek support than an R fully-onboard".
posted by WaterAndPixels at 12:18 PM on March 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know why the media bought it
Tucker Carlson is a particularly odious specimen but I can't believe he has a uniquely keen awareness of what his audience wants to hear.
posted by flabdablet at 12:39 PM on March 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tucker Carlson is a particularly odious specimen but I can't believe he has a uniquely keen awareness of what his audience wants to hear.
posted by flabdablet at 12:39 PM on March 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tucker Carlson is a particularly odious specimen but I can't believe he has a uniquely keen awareness of what his audience wants to hear.
Oh I expect FoxNews to be 100% constituted of what comforts their conservative viewership and aligns with what Murdoch thinks is good for him.
But I expected more of the other papers/channels, thats on me, shouldn't have.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:03 PM on March 19, 2023
Oh I expect FoxNews to be 100% constituted of what comforts their conservative viewership and aligns with what Murdoch thinks is good for him.
But I expected more of the other papers/channels, thats on me, shouldn't have.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:03 PM on March 19, 2023
Tucker Carlson is a particularly odious specimen but I can't believe he has a uniquely keen awareness of what his audience wants to hear.
I don't really think that was what was happening back then, though I do think Tucker Carlson emerged from the cesspool of hate and fear that was part of those years.
9-11 triggered my PTSD, and neither I or my therapists have ever figured out why. I'm not a survivor from then, though a couple of friends were, and I didn't loose any friends or family though my brother did. But revisiting the events in this thread I think gaslighting may be a central cause. From a certain perspective, "the whole world" agreed that Saddam Hussein was complicit of terrorbombing the twin towers. For someone with just a tiny bit of insight into Middle East issues, that was an absurd proposition.
The politicians of that time chose to disregard knowledge and human lives because something. I don't know what that something was, but I suspect oil money, since it is the most likely something.
posted by mumimor at 1:03 PM on March 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't really think that was what was happening back then, though I do think Tucker Carlson emerged from the cesspool of hate and fear that was part of those years.
9-11 triggered my PTSD, and neither I or my therapists have ever figured out why. I'm not a survivor from then, though a couple of friends were, and I didn't loose any friends or family though my brother did. But revisiting the events in this thread I think gaslighting may be a central cause. From a certain perspective, "the whole world" agreed that Saddam Hussein was complicit of terrorbombing the twin towers. For someone with just a tiny bit of insight into Middle East issues, that was an absurd proposition.
The politicians of that time chose to disregard knowledge and human lives because something. I don't know what that something was, but I suspect oil money, since it is the most likely something.
posted by mumimor at 1:03 PM on March 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
The US Govt & my boss at the time Colin Powell did not lie about WMD.
Mr Powell's team removed dozens of pages of alleged evidence about Iraq's banned weapons and ties to terrorists from a draft of his speech, US News and World Report says today. At one point, he became so angry at the lack of adequate sourcing to intelligence claims that he declared: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit," according to the magazine. [previously]He read it anyway.
Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraqposted by kirkaracha at 1:14 PM on March 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
In Their Own Words - Who Said What When
The politicians of that time chose to disregard knowledge and human lives because something
We all know what that "something" is, because it's been in full view the whole time: war is good for the economy, presidential settling of scores, irascible military after the Clinton downsizing, jingoism for the rabble, and maybe a couple others. Remember that 9/11 was "an attack on us all," because if it's just an NYC/Pentagon attack (with a contribution from the FAA), war is much harder to wage. The attack didn't affect me at all, but its effects were imposed on me.
There's a bunch of Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" going on, where permission is given to the powerful, whoclear the battlefield pull weapons inspectors and make war seem inevitable, that there's no way to prevent the US from stumbling into war again.
posted by rhizome at 1:21 PM on March 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
We all know what that "something" is, because it's been in full view the whole time: war is good for the economy, presidential settling of scores, irascible military after the Clinton downsizing, jingoism for the rabble, and maybe a couple others. Remember that 9/11 was "an attack on us all," because if it's just an NYC/Pentagon attack (with a contribution from the FAA), war is much harder to wage. The attack didn't affect me at all, but its effects were imposed on me.
There's a bunch of Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" going on, where permission is given to the powerful, who
posted by rhizome at 1:21 PM on March 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't really think that was what was happening back then, though I do think Tucker Carlson emerged from the cesspool of hate and fear that was part of those years.
1st time Tucker was on my radar was when he was SKEWERED, P0WNED and just BURNT TO A CRISP by John Stewart on Crossfire. But hey, I don't watch FoxNews.
But they had O'Reilly & Limbaugh and the other dude I don't remember who were just as ridiculous back then. I think the general idea of flabdablet is that Tucker is not the 1st one to pull this trick.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:37 PM on March 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
1st time Tucker was on my radar was when he was SKEWERED, P0WNED and just BURNT TO A CRISP by John Stewart on Crossfire. But hey, I don't watch FoxNews.
But they had O'Reilly & Limbaugh and the other dude I don't remember who were just as ridiculous back then. I think the general idea of flabdablet is that Tucker is not the 1st one to pull this trick.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:37 PM on March 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Soon after 9/11, it wasn't obvious that putting together a big terroriest attack is a lot harder than it sounds.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:47 PM on March 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:47 PM on March 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Soon after 9/11, it wasn't obvious that putting together a big terroriest attack is a lot harder than it sounds.
I tend to disagree. In the aftermath of 9/11, I argued, and I'm no expert, that if bin Laden were really as powerful as was being claimed, he could have devasted the economy by executing small, surgically timed events across the US. A shopping mall here, a water system there, a minor airport, etc. The fact that there was no follow on to the hijackings indicated to me that there was no grand plan, just a big one-off event, in which he was lucky not to have been detected.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:46 PM on March 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I tend to disagree. In the aftermath of 9/11, I argued, and I'm no expert, that if bin Laden were really as powerful as was being claimed, he could have devasted the economy by executing small, surgically timed events across the US. A shopping mall here, a water system there, a minor airport, etc. The fact that there was no follow on to the hijackings indicated to me that there was no grand plan, just a big one-off event, in which he was lucky not to have been detected.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:46 PM on March 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I disagree that there was no follow-on to the attacks. Immediately coming to mind are the anthrax mailings, the shoe bomber, the underpants bomber, and the sniper who fired at fuel stations in Washington, D.C. The sniper turned out to be unconnected to Al Quaeda, but (as I recall) both of the bombers were, and the anthrax attack was never solved.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:56 PM on March 19, 2023
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:56 PM on March 19, 2023
I'm no expert...The fact that there was no follow on to the hijackings
The goal was world wide jihad not 30 million Americans guarding stuff.
Here's a Timeline
and The Master Plan
posted by clavdivs at 8:06 PM on March 19, 2023
The goal was world wide jihad not 30 million Americans guarding stuff.
Here's a Timeline
and The Master Plan
posted by clavdivs at 8:06 PM on March 19, 2023
The US Govt & my boss at the time Colin Powell did not lie about WMD. The word “lie” involves intent. There was no intent; we got it wrong.Liar.
posted by flabdablet at 9:59 PM on March 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
the anthrax attack was never solved
Cui bono? It was an inside job to drive support for invading Iraq. American investigators almost immediately "named Iraq as prime suspect as the source of the deadly spores" and the US used the anthrax attacks and potential follow-ups as a rationale for war.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:13 PM on March 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cui bono? It was an inside job to drive support for invading Iraq. American investigators almost immediately "named Iraq as prime suspect as the source of the deadly spores" and the US used the anthrax attacks and potential follow-ups as a rationale for war.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:13 PM on March 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's certainly a more plausible conspiracy theory than most currently circulating, mainly because the number of people who would have needed to know about it in order to make it happen is very small, Cheney is indisputably unscrupulous enough to have approved it, and anybody involved would be well motivated to keep the lid on it.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the US military and intelligence community has access to anthrax suitably processed for distribution by mail, and that community has a consistent history of accusing other actors of stuff that it's doing itself; see also "hmmm nyum nyum nyum nyumumm".
posted by flabdablet at 2:14 AM on March 20, 2023
I have no doubt whatsoever that the US military and intelligence community has access to anthrax suitably processed for distribution by mail, and that community has a consistent history of accusing other actors of stuff that it's doing itself; see also "hmmm nyum nyum nyum nyumumm".
posted by flabdablet at 2:14 AM on March 20, 2023
And it is strange to observe that the US seems to be able to indict a president who paid hush money to a stripper -- and tried but failed to overthrow democracy -- but was not able to indict a president who committed multiple crimes against humanity.
Obviously, it wasn't Bush alone. Most members of his administration are equally culpable.
It goes well beyond members of his administration. The overwhelming majority of American elected politicians at every level and in both major parties supported the invasion of Iraq. The American media supported the invasion of Iraq. Who would be doing the arresting, who the indicting?
The US Govt & my boss at the time Colin Powell did not lie about WMD.
The only way to make this claim is to use the most outrageously narrow possible definition of "lie" (even then, many people won't buy even that) and to exclude deliberate exaggeration, elision of sourcing confidence (intelligence agencies are not required to believe every word that every Sweaty stringer tells them in the airport bar, compression and juggling of timelines, and other offenses against truth. It's not that there weren't inputs to the intelligence machine that, assembled in a particular way, could point towards an Iraqi chemical weapons programme remaining live - it's that this level of intelligence exists for basically any country.
This is the way it was put to me by someone fairly senior in the UK intelligence community - that Iraq was not unique in the size of their alleged remaining programme[s] nor in the quality of the evidence supporting that claim, nor had there been any shifts in Iraqi activity for almost a decade at that point. The best available evidence pointed to a country that had a programme for chemical weapons in the past and might have retained some latent capability and armed weapons, somewhere. That's it. However this is true for many, many countries. Iraq was unusual in that they had actually used such weapons in the past but apart from that, in no way special. It's true for South Africa or Turkmenistan, or Colombia. His view was that this was and should have been obvious to experienced intelligence professionals who weren't blinded by their access to power and desire to give the "correct" result.
posted by atrazine at 3:14 AM on March 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Obviously, it wasn't Bush alone. Most members of his administration are equally culpable.
It goes well beyond members of his administration. The overwhelming majority of American elected politicians at every level and in both major parties supported the invasion of Iraq. The American media supported the invasion of Iraq. Who would be doing the arresting, who the indicting?
The US Govt & my boss at the time Colin Powell did not lie about WMD.
The only way to make this claim is to use the most outrageously narrow possible definition of "lie" (even then, many people won't buy even that) and to exclude deliberate exaggeration, elision of sourcing confidence (intelligence agencies are not required to believe every word that every Sweaty stringer tells them in the airport bar, compression and juggling of timelines, and other offenses against truth. It's not that there weren't inputs to the intelligence machine that, assembled in a particular way, could point towards an Iraqi chemical weapons programme remaining live - it's that this level of intelligence exists for basically any country.
This is the way it was put to me by someone fairly senior in the UK intelligence community - that Iraq was not unique in the size of their alleged remaining programme[s] nor in the quality of the evidence supporting that claim, nor had there been any shifts in Iraqi activity for almost a decade at that point. The best available evidence pointed to a country that had a programme for chemical weapons in the past and might have retained some latent capability and armed weapons, somewhere. That's it. However this is true for many, many countries. Iraq was unusual in that they had actually used such weapons in the past but apart from that, in no way special. It's true for South Africa or Turkmenistan, or Colombia. His view was that this was and should have been obvious to experienced intelligence professionals who weren't blinded by their access to power and desire to give the "correct" result.
posted by atrazine at 3:14 AM on March 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
New Lines Magazine has a series on the Iraq War:
Rasha Al Aqeedi, Living — and Reliving — the US Invasion of Iraq
Muhammad Idrees Ahmad, The Uses and Abuses of the Iraq War
Robert Ford, I Worked in Iraq During the US Occupation. The ‘Rot’ in the Project Was Known to Us All
Henrietta Wilson, The Disarming of Iraq: What Went Wrong and What Went Right
Life and Loss in Occupied Iraq — with Noor Ghazi
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:00 PM on March 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Rasha Al Aqeedi, Living — and Reliving — the US Invasion of Iraq
Muhammad Idrees Ahmad, The Uses and Abuses of the Iraq War
Robert Ford, I Worked in Iraq During the US Occupation. The ‘Rot’ in the Project Was Known to Us All
Henrietta Wilson, The Disarming of Iraq: What Went Wrong and What Went Right
Life and Loss in Occupied Iraq — with Noor Ghazi
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:00 PM on March 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sinan Antoon, A million lives later, I cannot forgive what American terrorism did to my country, Iraq
In Cairo, I watched as the US began its “shock and awe” campaign – a terrifying rain of death and destruction on Baghdad. Poetry was my refuge and the only space through which I could translate the visceral pain of watching the violence visited on Iraq and seeing my hometown fall to an occupying army. Some of the lines I wrote in the early days of the invasion crystallise my melancholy:posted by Ahmad Khani at 7:27 PM on March 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
The wind is a blind mother
stumbling
over the corpses
no shrouds
save the clouds
but the dogs
are far quicker
The moon is a graveyard
for light
the stars are women
wailing.
Tired from carrying the coffins
the wind leaned
against a palm tree
A satellite inquired:
Whereto now?
The silence
in the wind’s cane murmured:
“Baghdad”
and the palm tree caught fire.
The US Govt & my boss at the time Colin Powell did not lie about WMD. The word “lie” involves intent.
Someone in a superior position to your boss had a vested interest in distracting everyone else from poking into his Enron involvement. Your boss probably didn't lie - but someone else above him in the government SURE AS SHIT did so.
I know I sound like a conspiracy nut saying this, but I've been thinking this for 20 years.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:19 AM on March 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Someone in a superior position to your boss had a vested interest in distracting everyone else from poking into his Enron involvement. Your boss probably didn't lie - but someone else above him in the government SURE AS SHIT did so.
I know I sound like a conspiracy nut saying this, but I've been thinking this for 20 years.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:19 AM on March 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
"What I Got Right About The Iraq War" by Dick Cheney (The Onion)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 10:45 AM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 10:45 AM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, I never knew the guy and it doesn't really matter anymore so [shrug], but to say that Colin Powell did not intend to mislead is to attribute an absolutely preternatural level of stupidity to the man.
posted by Not A Thing at 4:00 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Not A Thing at 4:00 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
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