equity, licensing, and headaches
March 27, 2023 4:34 PM Subscribe
Cannabis has been legalized in New York State, and legal dispensaries could have opened starting nearly a year ago. Yet there are only five legal dispensaries in the whole state. "Meanwhile, about 1,500 smoke shops are selling cannabis illegally in New York City alone, city officials estimate." "Why Can’t Legal Cannabis Sellers Open Shops?" asks the nonprofit news org THE CITY. (Slow, confusing bureaucracy is the short answer.) More coverage.
Considering the primary function of drug laws (and, depending on how funky you want to get with it, big chunks of the drug trade itself) is to regulate, disrupt and immiserate black people and hippies, I bet this has something to do with that.
posted by Reyturner at 6:53 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Reyturner at 6:53 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes, I suspect there are many people in positions of power who are just fine with the status quo and not a lot of powerful interests lined up behind getting the previously disadvantaged people the ability to set up storefronts. Even the governor's unmet goal of opening 20 shops per month seems very, very modest for a state as big as New York.
But smokers can get their weed from the existing unlicensed networks and now unlicensed shops, and various interests profit from whatever corruption is involved there. Landlords probably don't care if they license to a "vape shop" that sells weed without a license or a legal dispensary—it might even be easier to rent to the unlicensed shop to avoid dealing with the state bureaucracy. Liquor stores and bars don't want the competition, and various residents and businesses don't want to be next door to a dispensary (especially not the first dispensary in their area, which will attract tourists and cranks and college bros and the press and whoever else).
posted by smelendez at 7:05 PM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
But smokers can get their weed from the existing unlicensed networks and now unlicensed shops, and various interests profit from whatever corruption is involved there. Landlords probably don't care if they license to a "vape shop" that sells weed without a license or a legal dispensary—it might even be easier to rent to the unlicensed shop to avoid dealing with the state bureaucracy. Liquor stores and bars don't want the competition, and various residents and businesses don't want to be next door to a dispensary (especially not the first dispensary in their area, which will attract tourists and cranks and college bros and the press and whoever else).
posted by smelendez at 7:05 PM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
It was a law written in intentional disregard of any common sense about business. Nobly-motivated rules that are guaranteed to fail or be perverted aren’t really noble. They should have simply auctioned off the licenses to the highest bidders and put the proceeds to good use.
posted by MattD at 7:46 PM on March 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by MattD at 7:46 PM on March 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Slow, confusing bureaucracy is the short answer
So, in other words, the answer is simply “New York”.
…sorry, but I’m still amazed by that time the NYC DOB called me to get a copy of an engineering standard that was thirty years out of date, because they had finally decided to include it in their requirements. None of their connected standards were current either. Do you like progressive collapse in your buildings? Because this is how you fucking get progressive collapse in your buildings, fucking DOB nitwits.
Yeah, NY, not exactly the quickest on the uptake.
posted by aramaic at 8:13 PM on March 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
So, in other words, the answer is simply “New York”.
…sorry, but I’m still amazed by that time the NYC DOB called me to get a copy of an engineering standard that was thirty years out of date, because they had finally decided to include it in their requirements. None of their connected standards were current either. Do you like progressive collapse in your buildings? Because this is how you fucking get progressive collapse in your buildings, fucking DOB nitwits.
Yeah, NY, not exactly the quickest on the uptake.
posted by aramaic at 8:13 PM on March 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Considering the primary function of drug laws (and, depending on how funky you want to get with it, big chunks of the drug trade itself) is to regulate, disrupt and immiserate black people and hippies, I bet this has something to do with that.
That's the thing, the NY law was ostensibly supposed to ameliorate that: steering cannabis licenses to people who had themselves spent time behind bars for a prior weed conviction, and to nonprofits. And it still produced this mess!
posted by BungaDunga at 9:30 PM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's the thing, the NY law was ostensibly supposed to ameliorate that: steering cannabis licenses to people who had themselves spent time behind bars for a prior weed conviction, and to nonprofits. And it still produced this mess!
posted by BungaDunga at 9:30 PM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Does anyone know whether any states are relatively good about permitting legal sale of marijuana?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:12 PM on March 27, 2023
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:12 PM on March 27, 2023
If you are looking for inspiration BC seems to have a pot shop on every second corner.
posted by Mitheral at 11:03 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 11:03 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Michigan had nearly $2 billion in retail sales for 2022.
posted by clavdivs at 12:08 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 12:08 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I live in CT and have traveled to both MA and NY now for the legality of it all as CT slowly opens up as well. Anecdotally, MA was slow to start but now you go into some towns like Great Barrington and there are dispenseries everwhere. No one cares or even notices anymore.
posted by archimago at 4:23 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by archimago at 4:23 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you are looking for inspiration BC seems to have a pot shop on every second corner.
New York’s neighbour Ontario likewise. It’s not uncommon to see three in a block (on one side of the street), although five years in the Wild West aspect is cooling off.
A year ago a Reddit thread announced the opening of a new games café in my hometown and so wine commented that it was strange to hear about anew business opening downtown that was not a dispensary. Guess what its two neighbours are.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:28 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
New York’s neighbour Ontario likewise. It’s not uncommon to see three in a block (on one side of the street), although five years in the Wild West aspect is cooling off.
A year ago a Reddit thread announced the opening of a new games café in my hometown and so wine commented that it was strange to hear about anew business opening downtown that was not a dispensary. Guess what its two neighbours are.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:28 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
The most brilliant business decision I've seen so far is a cannabis dispensary opening up next door to a Bulk Barn*. Though I guess it would be even more brilliant if the Bulk Barn opened up next to the dispensary.
* a Canadian chain of bulk food stores renowned for its selection of snacks.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:52 AM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
* a Canadian chain of bulk food stores renowned for its selection of snacks.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:52 AM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Eh, this is how it went with legalization in Canada. No real b&m stores for a loooong time (due to labyrinthine bureaucracy too) and then the floodgates opened. Now there are too many dispensaries. New York will likely be the same: too little legal product, then too much legal product.
As a cannabis educator, I will direct you to a Leafly article that reminds you that when you purchase weed from a gray/black market source, you may not be getting what you think you are getting.
posted by Kitteh at 4:52 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
As a cannabis educator, I will direct you to a Leafly article that reminds you that when you purchase weed from a gray/black market source, you may not be getting what you think you are getting.
posted by Kitteh at 4:52 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
As BungaDunga wrote:
I thought to check on Oklahoma just now, because of the news story from a few years ago about the cannabis industry there and migrant workers from China (Oklahoma has a TON of growers and sellers under medical marijuana licensing). A referendum there this month rejected legalizing recreational use. The current de facto state of legalization in Oklahoma seems to be that it's incredibly easy to get a medical marijuana card and so people who want legal cannabis do that and buy from one of those dispensaries. I don't know how common that situation is in other areas.
posted by brainwane at 4:55 AM on March 28, 2023
That's the thing, the NY law was ostensibly supposed to ameliorate that: steering cannabis licenses to people who had themselves spent time behind bars for a prior weed conviction, and to nonprofits.Is New York's licensing process more (on paper) focused on social equity for people previously hurt by the drug war than are/were the processes in British Columbia and Ontario and Michigan? Did cannabis dispensaries open faster there, adjusted for the number of inhabitants or the overall size of the regional economies or whatever other factors make sense to account for?
I thought to check on Oklahoma just now, because of the news story from a few years ago about the cannabis industry there and migrant workers from China (Oklahoma has a TON of growers and sellers under medical marijuana licensing). A referendum there this month rejected legalizing recreational use. The current de facto state of legalization in Oklahoma seems to be that it's incredibly easy to get a medical marijuana card and so people who want legal cannabis do that and buy from one of those dispensaries. I don't know how common that situation is in other areas.
posted by brainwane at 4:55 AM on March 28, 2023
In my neck of the woods, WNY, the Seneca Nation has cannabis covered. You get a free joint at certain places on the reservation if you gas up completely.
posted by triage_lazarus at 5:18 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by triage_lazarus at 5:18 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Massachusetts, too. It took a while for dispensaries to open because of all the regulations put in place to ensure that disproportionately affected communities/groups would have an opportunity to get into this new market, but now every other billboard is advertising the opening of a new storefront.
The rest of the billboards are advertising sports betting, which was also just legalized. I'm not aware of any similar regulations designed to create equity in that market--it's just a state-sanctioned license for Draftkings, FanDuel, MGM, to print money while selling a "product" that is more damaging to communities and lives.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:21 AM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
The rest of the billboards are advertising sports betting, which was also just legalized. I'm not aware of any similar regulations designed to create equity in that market--it's just a state-sanctioned license for Draftkings, FanDuel, MGM, to print money while selling a "product" that is more damaging to communities and lives.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:21 AM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
If we can not pass gun laws then it makes sense that we cannot efficiently open cannabis shops in NY.
posted by DJZouke at 5:25 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DJZouke at 5:25 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I live in NY now, but I lived in BC just before it was all legalized and tbqh I feel like blaming the social equity laws is not quite right-- blame the Michigan company that sued the state because of those social equity laws (I haven't quite read the CITY piece, but I didn't see it explicitly mentioned? This lawsuit blocked many stores opening up, including in the entirety of Brooklyn.)
BC had a ton of grey market places before it was fully legalized, too (I lived near South Granville, and I recall five or so in walking distance.) NY will get to the point where other countries and states are eventually.
posted by Pitachu at 6:42 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
BC had a ton of grey market places before it was fully legalized, too (I lived near South Granville, and I recall five or so in walking distance.) NY will get to the point where other countries and states are eventually.
posted by Pitachu at 6:42 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
From the state that brought you Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed...
I presume the reason the licensing is taking so long is because the law was written such that a new dispensary needs to cross a lot of desks before getting approved -- and everybody whose desk it crosses needs to get their cut, or do a favor for their guy, or screw over someone who they have a grudge against. I know there's no such thing as clean politics, but New York takes it to a whole 'nother level.
posted by ourobouros at 7:57 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I presume the reason the licensing is taking so long is because the law was written such that a new dispensary needs to cross a lot of desks before getting approved -- and everybody whose desk it crosses needs to get their cut, or do a favor for their guy, or screw over someone who they have a grudge against. I know there's no such thing as clean politics, but New York takes it to a whole 'nother level.
posted by ourobouros at 7:57 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
You get a free joint at certain places on the reservation if you gas up completely.
The return of green stamps!
posted by clavdivs at 7:59 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
The return of green stamps!
posted by clavdivs at 7:59 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Seems like a fundamental problem with bureaucracies, everyone can say no. Or perhaps more apt, they can just not say yes which is functionally the same. And often the claimed solution to this is to create more bureaucracy, but they are rarely empowered to overrule existing procedures in place.
I'm not clear why there are rules against dispensaries restricted from being near (1000 feet) away from each other. Imagine if these types of rules existed against restaurants or bars. I'm sure there are some supposedly good reasons for it, but it seems a bit too close to NIMBY-ism.
posted by meowzilla at 8:55 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not clear why there are rules against dispensaries restricted from being near (1000 feet) away from each other. Imagine if these types of rules existed against restaurants or bars. I'm sure there are some supposedly good reasons for it, but it seems a bit too close to NIMBY-ism.
posted by meowzilla at 8:55 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
the current de facto state of legalization in Oklahoma seems to be that it's incredibly easy to get a medical marijuana card and so people who want legal cannabis do that and buy from one of those dispensaries. I don't know how common that situation is in other areas.
This pretty much describes California between (medical-legal) 1996 and (recreation-legal) 2017.
posted by Rash at 9:34 AM on March 28, 2023
This pretty much describes California between (medical-legal) 1996 and (recreation-legal) 2017.
posted by Rash at 9:34 AM on March 28, 2023
Same story in New Jersey, unfortunately. In my town, the people who want to open legally are confronted with endless red tape and legal hassles. Meanwhile, the people who operate illegally do so without any consequences or pushback whatsoever - sometimes on the very same block. It's infuriating.
posted by spilon at 10:27 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by spilon at 10:27 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Seems like a fundamental problem with bureaucracies, everyone can say no. Or perhaps more apt, they can just not say yes which is functionally the same. And often the claimed solution to this is to create more bureaucracy, but they are rarely empowered to overrule existing procedures in place.
Yup - all the folks ascribing all sorts of big picture motivations to these things haven't spent a lot of time working in a place like state government. The basic motivations are that you can't really get in trouble (generally) for taking your time, saying no if you aren't sure, or passing the thing off to the next person for more consideration. You can get in trouble for saying yes and having an exposé done about your decision. Plus you are likely tasked with 2x-3x the paperwork any normal person could reasonably process. So, you hunker down and make a thousand tiny decisions each day, wearing yourself and avoiding the big ones.
Lots of work for little output, but the alternative is empowering bureaucrats to have more authority, leeway, and ability to shrug off external concerns about their decision making - and we've been moving away from that, for good reasons and bad, for decades.
Slow roll-outs of new programs should be the de facto standard, and the more aspects of society the program touches or is intended to take into consideration, the slower.
posted by meinvt at 10:39 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yup - all the folks ascribing all sorts of big picture motivations to these things haven't spent a lot of time working in a place like state government. The basic motivations are that you can't really get in trouble (generally) for taking your time, saying no if you aren't sure, or passing the thing off to the next person for more consideration. You can get in trouble for saying yes and having an exposé done about your decision. Plus you are likely tasked with 2x-3x the paperwork any normal person could reasonably process. So, you hunker down and make a thousand tiny decisions each day, wearing yourself and avoiding the big ones.
Lots of work for little output, but the alternative is empowering bureaucrats to have more authority, leeway, and ability to shrug off external concerns about their decision making - and we've been moving away from that, for good reasons and bad, for decades.
Slow roll-outs of new programs should be the de facto standard, and the more aspects of society the program touches or is intended to take into consideration, the slower.
posted by meinvt at 10:39 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
The worst part about this is that everyone knew it was going to fail. Massive bureaucratic slogs, very few of the equity license applicants qualifying (and many of those only because they are fronting for non-equity money), etc., were not only foreseeable but 100% foreseen. It was a bad joke everyone pretended to find funny.
posted by MattD at 10:40 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MattD at 10:40 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
In some circles (I'll refrain from mentioning which ones, as they are going to be unpopular here), the different policies are referred to as shall issue vs may issue.
Shall issue: if you filled out all the paperwork and meet the requirements, the government office is required to issue the permit in a timely manner
May issue: you send in all the paperwork and someone in the government office will look at your application, but ultimately may or may not issue you the permit as they have discretion, and are not under any obligation to do anything
The first is like how a computer works, but it also requires a lot of explicit rules and regulations that have to also be regularly updated to meet changing requirements. The second bypasses a lot of the regulations but it is very prone to political winds and corruption.
posted by meowzilla at 11:38 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Shall issue: if you filled out all the paperwork and meet the requirements, the government office is required to issue the permit in a timely manner
May issue: you send in all the paperwork and someone in the government office will look at your application, but ultimately may or may not issue you the permit as they have discretion, and are not under any obligation to do anything
The first is like how a computer works, but it also requires a lot of explicit rules and regulations that have to also be regularly updated to meet changing requirements. The second bypasses a lot of the regulations but it is very prone to political winds and corruption.
posted by meowzilla at 11:38 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
In addition, there are probably so many delivery services already in operation in NYC and elsewhere in the state that they can not be bothered with the red tape of becoming a legal dispensary. Then there is the tax issue.
posted by DJZouke at 12:08 PM on March 28, 2023
posted by DJZouke at 12:08 PM on March 28, 2023
[derail]And here I live, like many others in the US, deeply into an area where there is no legal access.[/derail]
posted by achrise at 5:15 PM on March 28, 2023
posted by achrise at 5:15 PM on March 28, 2023
This pretty much describes California between (medical-legal) 1996 and (recreation-legal) 2017.
Which made for a pretty smooth transition to legality, at least in cities where dispensaries with their shit together had been ready for that day for years. The (municipal) equity license programs have had issues here, too, though. From what I’ve read Oakland’s is among the most successful as far as actually getting people licenses and providing support, but founders have still struggled to break into a saturated market. Also dispensaries are big targets for robbery - for sort of obvious reasons, exacerbated by their limited access to banking.
posted by atoxyl at 6:39 PM on March 28, 2023
Which made for a pretty smooth transition to legality, at least in cities where dispensaries with their shit together had been ready for that day for years. The (municipal) equity license programs have had issues here, too, though. From what I’ve read Oakland’s is among the most successful as far as actually getting people licenses and providing support, but founders have still struggled to break into a saturated market. Also dispensaries are big targets for robbery - for sort of obvious reasons, exacerbated by their limited access to banking.
posted by atoxyl at 6:39 PM on March 28, 2023
And often the claimed solution to this is to create more bureaucracy, but they are rarely empowered to overrule existing procedures in place.
As meowzilla alluded to, there are other areas where voters have seen fit to cut right the fuck through all that red tape. So it is not impossible. Rather than letting the state proceed at its own leisurely pace, the legislature can absolutely just say: unless the state comes up with a specific reason why a particular application is invalid, than it automatically turns into a permit (or causes a permit to be issued, or whatever) in some span of time.
It's not something you want to do everywhere, all the time—or you might want to have exceptions or an appeals process for particularly thorny edge cases. (All processes should have an exception-handling mechanism! Always!) But application processes that do not require the state to act in a timely manner often become suspiciously discretionary, and when the permits involve the ability to make substantial amounts of money (as business licenses, zoning permits, etc. often do), it's a pretty short jump from "discretion" to "corruption".
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:54 PM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
As meowzilla alluded to, there are other areas where voters have seen fit to cut right the fuck through all that red tape. So it is not impossible. Rather than letting the state proceed at its own leisurely pace, the legislature can absolutely just say: unless the state comes up with a specific reason why a particular application is invalid, than it automatically turns into a permit (or causes a permit to be issued, or whatever) in some span of time.
It's not something you want to do everywhere, all the time—or you might want to have exceptions or an appeals process for particularly thorny edge cases. (All processes should have an exception-handling mechanism! Always!) But application processes that do not require the state to act in a timely manner often become suspiciously discretionary, and when the permits involve the ability to make substantial amounts of money (as business licenses, zoning permits, etc. often do), it's a pretty short jump from "discretion" to "corruption".
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:54 PM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Looks like that lawsuit from the Michigan resident will no longer block a bunch of areas in NY from letting dispensaries open.
posted by brainwane at 1:23 PM on March 30, 2023
posted by brainwane at 1:23 PM on March 30, 2023
And, because that lawsuit is no longer blocking issuing licenses, the state just issued 99 new licenses including "53 going to New York City applicants." So maybe the logjam has broken. I'm inclined to go with Pitachu's and Kitteh's explanations for what happened in NY state & city so far.
posted by brainwane at 5:19 PM on April 3, 2023
posted by brainwane at 5:19 PM on April 3, 2023
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posted by brainwane at 4:44 PM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]