professional women were Type A at work and Type A at home
April 3, 2023 2:04 PM Subscribe
A typology of household cognitive labor activities: anticipating a need, identifying options for filling it, deciding among the options, and monitoring the results. Research by sociologist Allison Daminger: in heterosexual couples, husbands who were project managers and surgeons exhibited strong executive function skills at work, but when at home, deferred to their wives' superior ability to plan and think ahead. (Definitely overlapping but not identical to MeFi's emotional labor discussions (the o.g. 2015 thread)!)
Wages for housework. It s a public health emergency, especially if you want us to raise children.
posted by eustatic at 2:31 PM on April 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 2:31 PM on April 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
People make fun of using bug-tracker-type systems at home, but I find it offloads some of this and makes all of it visible.
posted by clew at 2:59 PM on April 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by clew at 2:59 PM on April 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
From her personal site: She followed up the above 2019 post, with another in 2020 titled De-gendered Processes, Gendered Outcomes: How Egalitarian Couples Make Sense of Non-egalitarian Household Practices; and did interviews on two podcasts and three radio shows.
posted by Callisto Prime at 3:40 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Callisto Prime at 3:40 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
“My Marriage Was Never the Same After That,” Maggie Smith, The Cut, 28 March 2023
In 2016, I wrote a poem that went viral. My home life got complicated.posted by ob1quixote at 3:47 PM on April 3, 2023 [41 favorites]
The article talks about how the decision-making part is more likely to be a shared task, and goes on to say "One interpretation of this finding is that men enjoy some of the power associated with decision-making—and receive participation “credit” from their wives—without putting in the prep work required to reach the decision stage. "
Sure, probably. But, also, I was reading somewhere recently (oh yeah, I looked up decision-making) that couples who make decisions together are more likely to stay together longer. Something like that. I think at least some of the time it is about couples recognizing that reaching consensus is important to maintaining the health of their relationship.
posted by aniola at 4:14 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Sure, probably. But, also, I was reading somewhere recently (oh yeah, I looked up decision-making) that couples who make decisions together are more likely to stay together longer. Something like that. I think at least some of the time it is about couples recognizing that reaching consensus is important to maintaining the health of their relationship.
posted by aniola at 4:14 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Thanks for that Maggie Smith link.
I left a relationship of almost 30 years in October (October is when I moved out; there were years of getting to the point where I realized I had to leave, and some more time after that before I figured out how I could do it).
One huge reason I left my relationship is that, when I got sick in 2014, my partner just let everything fall apart. I'd always known I did more of the house-and-family upkeep; like Smith, I worked part-time as a teacher and writer, so it made sense. Somehow I never realized that I was doing everything because he was unable or unwilling to do anything. When I left my relationship, I did it with the help of the local domestic violence agency, though my relationship was not violent. Turns out being neglected when you are unable to take care of your own needs is legitimate, too.
posted by Well I never at 4:49 PM on April 3, 2023 [40 favorites]
I left a relationship of almost 30 years in October (October is when I moved out; there were years of getting to the point where I realized I had to leave, and some more time after that before I figured out how I could do it).
One huge reason I left my relationship is that, when I got sick in 2014, my partner just let everything fall apart. I'd always known I did more of the house-and-family upkeep; like Smith, I worked part-time as a teacher and writer, so it made sense. Somehow I never realized that I was doing everything because he was unable or unwilling to do anything. When I left my relationship, I did it with the help of the local domestic violence agency, though my relationship was not violent. Turns out being neglected when you are unable to take care of your own needs is legitimate, too.
posted by Well I never at 4:49 PM on April 3, 2023 [40 favorites]
Sad that men who practice these skill all day at work still don't feel comfortable enough to do so at home.
It's crazy how few men have an equal share of influence over their lives & in their homes. How many times have you gone to a married couple's home & had to go to into the mancave or basement to get any sense of the husbands personality or preference?
If they have a basement or mancave you can see they do in fact care, so why is that invisible in the rest of the home?
posted by KBGB at 5:03 PM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's crazy how few men have an equal share of influence over their lives & in their homes. How many times have you gone to a married couple's home & had to go to into the mancave or basement to get any sense of the husbands personality or preference?
If they have a basement or mancave you can see they do in fact care, so why is that invisible in the rest of the home?
posted by KBGB at 5:03 PM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's not that they don't feel comfortable using these skills. It's that it's work, and they don't want to do it, because they're saving their energy for the work people pay them to do outside the house. Not everyone in their household has that privilege.
I don't think you should interpret "this guy's interests are relegated to his man cave" as an expression of a man's lack of influence in his home. More likely, he has delegated decorating questions to his partner because he doesn't want to take responsibility for the look and feel of the house, or ownership of ongoing cleaning and maintenance tasks related to same. I hate doing that stuff myself, and my (male) partner resents deeply that I've put it on him, as he regards it as being sort of the natural order of things that I would care about it and want to have influence over it. Unfortunately for him, I just really do not. I don't care and I don't want to spend time on it, and when I have to I make it everyone's problem, because I complain and procrastinate and nothing gets done. So the decorating at our place reflects his personality and interests much more than it reflects mine. It's not a reflection of my lack of influence; it's a reflection of my partner's willingness to step up.
posted by potrzebie at 5:15 PM on April 3, 2023 [31 favorites]
I don't think you should interpret "this guy's interests are relegated to his man cave" as an expression of a man's lack of influence in his home. More likely, he has delegated decorating questions to his partner because he doesn't want to take responsibility for the look and feel of the house, or ownership of ongoing cleaning and maintenance tasks related to same. I hate doing that stuff myself, and my (male) partner resents deeply that I've put it on him, as he regards it as being sort of the natural order of things that I would care about it and want to have influence over it. Unfortunately for him, I just really do not. I don't care and I don't want to spend time on it, and when I have to I make it everyone's problem, because I complain and procrastinate and nothing gets done. So the decorating at our place reflects his personality and interests much more than it reflects mine. It's not a reflection of my lack of influence; it's a reflection of my partner's willingness to step up.
posted by potrzebie at 5:15 PM on April 3, 2023 [31 favorites]
People make fun of using bug-tracker-type systems at home, but I find it offloads some of this and makes all of it visible.
I guess I might make fun of this but also how do I do this?
posted by grobstein at 6:16 PM on April 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
I guess I might make fun of this but also how do I do this?
posted by grobstein at 6:16 PM on April 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
We use Trello for some stuff -- it lets you do things like "each of the contractors we're talking to gets a post-it note, and there are columns for 'need to call,' 'called,' 'set appointment,' and ' got quote'." Which is kind of nifty. But honestly you could also just do it with actual post-it notes. We only use Trello because we already had it for work. It's an awfully big sledgehammer for this mosquito.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:25 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:25 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
My partner pointed out that as a neurodivergent couple we are both hyperaware of this particular skillset. I'm realizing that I'd love to see complete lists of the things people are putting in their trellos and similar. Does that exist anywhere?
posted by aniola at 6:38 PM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by aniola at 6:38 PM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
The author seems to be conflating concepts of anxiety and cognitive labor.
posted by dsword at 6:43 PM on April 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dsword at 6:43 PM on April 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sad that men who practice these skill all day at work still don't feel comfortable enough to do so at home.
In my experience, many of them manage to avoid a lot of the logistical and "tracking" type tasks at work, too. If I had a nickel for every time some guy asked me for a meeting and then expected me to pick the time, book the room, send the calendar invitations, etc. I'd be a very rich woman. It doesn't seem to be an issue of level, either, because the assumptions are still the same even though I am head of my organization now.
The only difference between today and twenty years ago is that I have now gotten very good at simply not noticing those expectations. It's amazing how many things turn out to be not so urgent or necessary when the person making the request shoulders the full burden of making them happen. It's a very liberating approach that I highly recommend.
posted by rpfields at 7:06 PM on April 3, 2023 [59 favorites]
In my experience, many of them manage to avoid a lot of the logistical and "tracking" type tasks at work, too. If I had a nickel for every time some guy asked me for a meeting and then expected me to pick the time, book the room, send the calendar invitations, etc. I'd be a very rich woman. It doesn't seem to be an issue of level, either, because the assumptions are still the same even though I am head of my organization now.
The only difference between today and twenty years ago is that I have now gotten very good at simply not noticing those expectations. It's amazing how many things turn out to be not so urgent or necessary when the person making the request shoulders the full burden of making them happen. It's a very liberating approach that I highly recommend.
posted by rpfields at 7:06 PM on April 3, 2023 [59 favorites]
(There's for sure a whole conversation to be had about barriers that (some) men do indeed (sometimes) face when attempting to carry the load of domestic work, including cognitive labor, but it's kinda off-point here so maybe we could leave that for another thread on some other day?)
Anyway, I found the "surgeons and project managers" framing a little weird but I guess it serves a useful function -- to make clear that these inequitable dynamics / shitty behavior are present even when the male partner has plenty of excess capacity when it comes to executive function.
At the same time there are probably a much larger number of couples where both partners have some level of executive function shortfall. IMO it would be very interesting (and tbf considerably more relatable) to see how those issues work out in that context. My assumption would be that the inequality in the distribution of cognitive load would vary depending on the relative EF of the partners, but that the inequity would remain fairly consistent (that is, you'd only tend to end up with an equal distribution of cognitive labor where the guy has much higher EF) (at least unless the partners were working actively on it). But that's only an assumption.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:20 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyway, I found the "surgeons and project managers" framing a little weird but I guess it serves a useful function -- to make clear that these inequitable dynamics / shitty behavior are present even when the male partner has plenty of excess capacity when it comes to executive function.
At the same time there are probably a much larger number of couples where both partners have some level of executive function shortfall. IMO it would be very interesting (and tbf considerably more relatable) to see how those issues work out in that context. My assumption would be that the inequality in the distribution of cognitive load would vary depending on the relative EF of the partners, but that the inequity would remain fairly consistent (that is, you'd only tend to end up with an equal distribution of cognitive labor where the guy has much higher EF) (at least unless the partners were working actively on it). But that's only an assumption.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:20 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
How many times have you gone to a married couple's home & had to go to into the mancave or basement to get any sense of the husbands personality or preference?
In my limited experience basements, mancaves, Polish patios, etc often (but obvs not always) end up decorated in a way that the relevant gentleman would absolutely acknowledge that they would not want their whole house done up like. In a way that they might think is cool or badass but would also admit is a bit silly.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:38 PM on April 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
In my limited experience basements, mancaves, Polish patios, etc often (but obvs not always) end up decorated in a way that the relevant gentleman would absolutely acknowledge that they would not want their whole house done up like. In a way that they might think is cool or badass but would also admit is a bit silly.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:38 PM on April 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
I used to think the phenomenon of over-60 couples having one shared email address (bobandalice@hotmail, etc.) was a slightly gauche generational marker, but the more I read of the notion of household cognition labour, and thinking of the huge number of services that need email notification to work, the more I think the white hairs are onto something. Maybe I should propose a shared mailbox or alias…
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:00 PM on April 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:00 PM on April 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
"four primary activities appeared over and over: anticipating a need, identifying options for filling it, deciding among the options, and monitoring the results."
A helpful framing! Glad to know this in particular. This may help me divide up domestic work proactively and delegate or own different bits.
posted by brainwane at 8:10 PM on April 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
A helpful framing! Glad to know this in particular. This may help me divide up domestic work proactively and delegate or own different bits.
posted by brainwane at 8:10 PM on April 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
the relevant gentleman would absolutely acknowledge that they would not want their whole house done up like. In a way that they might think is cool or badass but would also admit is a bit silly.
Somewhere a man angrily sips from a glass of whisky in his mancave beautifully done up in the Mid-Century Modern style his wife forbade him from decorating the rest of the house in.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:11 PM on April 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
Somewhere a man angrily sips from a glass of whisky in his mancave beautifully done up in the Mid-Century Modern style his wife forbade him from decorating the rest of the house in.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:11 PM on April 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
In my experience bobandalice@gmail.com is almost always just a way to reach Alice that Bob might occasionally have access to or use to sign up for things. Bob almost never checks it regularly.
posted by potrzebie at 8:24 PM on April 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 8:24 PM on April 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
I suspect there are probably lots of unpaid household tasks that are male-gendered, cause tremendous anxiety (climate change means we have a tornado season now, how do i retrofit a bathroom into a tornado shelter, can I retrofit my existing roof into a Fortified roof with nails and roof glue? how do i run my house / seasonal harvest and household medicine freezer on a portable generator, how many deep cycle marine batteries do i need to power the fridge for three days? Will I destroy the fridge if I backload the power?) that are not in the study (which is paywalled).
But the study over decades probably has not accounted for, say, the need for male bodied people to finish electrical work, re-do all the outlets to code, maintain an HVAC, wire the sound system, make the lighting nice, patch the fucking drywall, do emergency plumbing, or even rough-in new electrical lines, maintain the internet security for the home--or retrofit appliances and electronics when energy efficient technologies come online.
Despite how many years of ridicule I have gotten from male relatives for not knowing what a "pigtail" is, how to frame and drywall (fuck drywall), how to repair car finishes (fuck cars), or how to repair / replace a carbuerator, these tasks have not been consistent over decades, like laundry, diapers, child care and cleaning floors has been.
I feel like rodent, pest, (termite, birds, raccoon, pig) control is a male gendered job that might be consistent over decades. Exterior paint and finishes? Also drainage, latrine work or sink / toilet maintenance.
If the poop is on a person --> female gendered household task
If the poop is spilling from a pipe --> male gendered household task
Also lawncare and all forms of small engine repair can go straight to fucking hell. kill lawns, plant trees (if you can, to code and know how to repair your plumbing or build a rain garden).
Also, power washing? bullshit.
But a lot of these unpaid, high-expectation, nerve-wracking male-gendered household labor tasks can result in home equity, and can be negotiated into wealth with a realtor or a bank if you re-finance a home.
So, while not waged, they can result in wealth accumulation. if you can contract out for them, it's generally recognized that these things have value through the home inspection process. My Father-In-Law scolds me to save all of my Home Center receipts. Much male-gendered household labor can be valued if you have time and privilege to deal with the fucking bank.
Except small engine repair. fuck that. I am going back to using cane knives.
But I also feel like the unpaid male household tasks are harder / more dangerous in rural areas. So I would be interested to see whether the study accounted for urban / rural differences in unpaid household tasks.
posted by eustatic at 8:54 PM on April 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
But the study over decades probably has not accounted for, say, the need for male bodied people to finish electrical work, re-do all the outlets to code, maintain an HVAC, wire the sound system, make the lighting nice, patch the fucking drywall, do emergency plumbing, or even rough-in new electrical lines, maintain the internet security for the home--or retrofit appliances and electronics when energy efficient technologies come online.
Despite how many years of ridicule I have gotten from male relatives for not knowing what a "pigtail" is, how to frame and drywall (fuck drywall), how to repair car finishes (fuck cars), or how to repair / replace a carbuerator, these tasks have not been consistent over decades, like laundry, diapers, child care and cleaning floors has been.
I feel like rodent, pest, (termite, birds, raccoon, pig) control is a male gendered job that might be consistent over decades. Exterior paint and finishes? Also drainage, latrine work or sink / toilet maintenance.
If the poop is on a person --> female gendered household task
If the poop is spilling from a pipe --> male gendered household task
Also lawncare and all forms of small engine repair can go straight to fucking hell. kill lawns, plant trees (if you can, to code and know how to repair your plumbing or build a rain garden).
Also, power washing? bullshit.
But a lot of these unpaid, high-expectation, nerve-wracking male-gendered household labor tasks can result in home equity, and can be negotiated into wealth with a realtor or a bank if you re-finance a home.
So, while not waged, they can result in wealth accumulation. if you can contract out for them, it's generally recognized that these things have value through the home inspection process. My Father-In-Law scolds me to save all of my Home Center receipts. Much male-gendered household labor can be valued if you have time and privilege to deal with the fucking bank.
Except small engine repair. fuck that. I am going back to using cane knives.
But I also feel like the unpaid male household tasks are harder / more dangerous in rural areas. So I would be interested to see whether the study accounted for urban / rural differences in unpaid household tasks.
posted by eustatic at 8:54 PM on April 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
This is also why men will, like, strap themselves to oak trees rather than evacuate storms. they have to be on site after the storm passes, to patch the fucking roof.
posted by eustatic at 9:04 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 9:04 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
grobstein, I’m happy to talk about what works and doesn’t work in my household (consulting w/other half!). But I can’t tell how wry you’re being - are you unfamiliar with task/bug/todo trackers, or are you referring to the fact that having the list isn’t the same as doing the task?
posted by clew at 9:09 PM on April 3, 2023
posted by clew at 9:09 PM on April 3, 2023
“One interpretation of this finding is that men enjoy some of the power associated with decision-making—and receive participation ‘credit’ from their wives—without putting in the prep work required to reach the decision stage.”
this line from the article sums up so nicely the point that there is an unequal amount of invisible cognitive work in many relationships— and that this invisibility extends to the people in the relationship. i know aniola offered a counter point up thread, but i think if the pattern is consistent (re: who researches and prepares options; who weighs in only at decision time), then it is pointing to a uneven relationship dynamic. doesn’t mean it is terribly unfair de facto, but perhaps worth reflecting on.
i thoroughly enjoy eustatic’s vitriolic hate for small engine repair (above), but want to note the author includes an example of the partner who remembers a car needs an oil change (even if they don’t do the task themselves). i think a case for poop-pipe-task-equality needs to highlight the research and planning aspect. if one partner project manages the reno while the other partner does the labour, there are still two people involved in the project— only one person’s work may be invisible. the author’s point about “power associated” makes sense here too, as there is arguably more “credit” and “power” in many of the high visibility and traditionally masculine home repair work.
posted by tamarack at 10:31 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
this line from the article sums up so nicely the point that there is an unequal amount of invisible cognitive work in many relationships— and that this invisibility extends to the people in the relationship. i know aniola offered a counter point up thread, but i think if the pattern is consistent (re: who researches and prepares options; who weighs in only at decision time), then it is pointing to a uneven relationship dynamic. doesn’t mean it is terribly unfair de facto, but perhaps worth reflecting on.
i thoroughly enjoy eustatic’s vitriolic hate for small engine repair (above), but want to note the author includes an example of the partner who remembers a car needs an oil change (even if they don’t do the task themselves). i think a case for poop-pipe-task-equality needs to highlight the research and planning aspect. if one partner project manages the reno while the other partner does the labour, there are still two people involved in the project— only one person’s work may be invisible. the author’s point about “power associated” makes sense here too, as there is arguably more “credit” and “power” in many of the high visibility and traditionally masculine home repair work.
posted by tamarack at 10:31 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Somewhere a man angrily sips from a glass of whisky in his mancave beautifully done up in the Mid-Century Modern style his wife forbade him from decorating the rest of the house in.
I'll have you know I sip port wine.
posted by LionIndex at 11:15 PM on April 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'll have you know I sip port wine.
posted by LionIndex at 11:15 PM on April 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
To follow eustatic’s point—in modern urban cities most of these formerly male-coded jobs have largely disappeared. Renters usually cannot lawfully paint, repair, maintain, upgrade etc. the physical parts of a household. (In NSW they had to change a law to allow picture hooks).
In their place we have the cognitive-administrative labour of dealing with the real estate agent’s property manager and their retained tradesperson to e.g. fix the toilet, mend a roof leak, or repair the fuse box, a communications task set which I expect mostly falls to…
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:33 PM on April 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
In their place we have the cognitive-administrative labour of dealing with the real estate agent’s property manager and their retained tradesperson to e.g. fix the toilet, mend a roof leak, or repair the fuse box, a communications task set which I expect mostly falls to…
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:33 PM on April 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
How often, exactly, do outlets need to be redone to code? Because in my experience it's at worst once a decade, unless you really botched it up the first time around. Kids need their lunch every day, with menu planned, groceries bought, kitchen prepared and later cleaned.
Also note that electricians and plumbers are in the phonebook and advertising. Maybe it's different in the US, but in my experience help with female-gendered tasks, nannies and housekeepers and cleaners, are found only with difficulty by word of mouth among people who are half embarrassed to need them because women are supposed to run a household without help. (Which in a nuclear family is bullshit based on generations that absolutely had help from either relatives or hired servants.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 11:39 PM on April 3, 2023 [26 favorites]
Also note that electricians and plumbers are in the phonebook and advertising. Maybe it's different in the US, but in my experience help with female-gendered tasks, nannies and housekeepers and cleaners, are found only with difficulty by word of mouth among people who are half embarrassed to need them because women are supposed to run a household without help. (Which in a nuclear family is bullshit based on generations that absolutely had help from either relatives or hired servants.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 11:39 PM on April 3, 2023 [26 favorites]
A brief review/reminder:
1. Making the “honey, do” list (not completing the tasks on it) is the cognitive labor aspect, which is the subject of the research in question.
2. The researcher is also quite clear that they have only studied middle to upper middle class professional families with young-ish children, who have mutually tried for some more equal division of household labor in the first place.
posted by eviemath at 2:37 AM on April 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
1. Making the “honey, do” list (not completing the tasks on it) is the cognitive labor aspect, which is the subject of the research in question.
2. The researcher is also quite clear that they have only studied middle to upper middle class professional families with young-ish children, who have mutually tried for some more equal division of household labor in the first place.
posted by eviemath at 2:37 AM on April 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
The author seems to be conflating concepts of anxiety and cognitive labor.
Anxiety + cognitive labor = emotional labor? Maybe.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:41 AM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anxiety + cognitive labor = emotional labor? Maybe.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:41 AM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
But a lot of these unpaid, high-expectation, nerve-wracking male-gendered household labor tasks can result in home equity, and can be negotiated into wealth with a realtor or a bank if you re-finance a home.
I promise you, if no one were cleaning the house over decades this would do far more harm to the equity in the house than not having nice lighting or even not having up-to-date electrical or energy-efficient appliances.
But to the larger point, this study was about cognitive load, so they don't do this, but studies that look at the gendered division of labour DO account for this stuff, because they often involve time-use data where people keep diaries basically accounting for every minute of their day. 7:36-7:38 brushed teeth. etc. Anyway, as you kind of imply, it is tricky to figure out how much different people are working because people do different work (like let's say one person washes the floor and another person repairs scratches on in the floor), so the way researchers have come up with is to compare leisure time instead. You might guess, men have more leisure time.
Note: if you're thinking "well you only update the appliances once a decade, so it's not catching the X hours spent doing that unless it happens to get done on that day" remember that these are quant studies that normally include hundreds or thousands of people. So if a task is done once a decade, there should be SOMEONE in the study doing those tasks that day. If the task is done once a year, you'd expect that for ever 365 people in the study, one person would be doing it. This is basically how the census works too, when they ask you about what you did "yesterday". They're not assuming what you did yesterday you do every day, but that they can get an idea how many people are doing that on any given day based on how many people did it yesterday. Finally, most time-use studies I've seen do at least one weekday and one weekend-day.
I was trying to find you a citation, but I have to help my son get ready for school.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:48 AM on April 4, 2023 [22 favorites]
I promise you, if no one were cleaning the house over decades this would do far more harm to the equity in the house than not having nice lighting or even not having up-to-date electrical or energy-efficient appliances.
But to the larger point, this study was about cognitive load, so they don't do this, but studies that look at the gendered division of labour DO account for this stuff, because they often involve time-use data where people keep diaries basically accounting for every minute of their day. 7:36-7:38 brushed teeth. etc. Anyway, as you kind of imply, it is tricky to figure out how much different people are working because people do different work (like let's say one person washes the floor and another person repairs scratches on in the floor), so the way researchers have come up with is to compare leisure time instead. You might guess, men have more leisure time.
Note: if you're thinking "well you only update the appliances once a decade, so it's not catching the X hours spent doing that unless it happens to get done on that day" remember that these are quant studies that normally include hundreds or thousands of people. So if a task is done once a decade, there should be SOMEONE in the study doing those tasks that day. If the task is done once a year, you'd expect that for ever 365 people in the study, one person would be doing it. This is basically how the census works too, when they ask you about what you did "yesterday". They're not assuming what you did yesterday you do every day, but that they can get an idea how many people are doing that on any given day based on how many people did it yesterday. Finally, most time-use studies I've seen do at least one weekday and one weekend-day.
I was trying to find you a citation, but I have to help my son get ready for school.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:48 AM on April 4, 2023 [22 favorites]
I thought that bobandalice@gmail, or a shared Facebook page, meant that someone had cheated.
posted by waving at 5:01 AM on April 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by waving at 5:01 AM on April 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
I have been in relationships with partners who have strong executive function and planning instincts and ones who don't. With the former we had the shared Gcal and spreadsheets and checklists but found it challenging when we would both try to collaborate on planning a common task (ie. Shopping and cooking for a group dinner, doing the laundry) because we both had a set way of doing things, were already used to doing these things when living alone, and it was often an involved process to develop a compromise plan. Instead it was easier for us to defer entire tasks to one or the other. She would handle the laundry, I would handle grocery shopping. We would alternate taking the lead on planning vacations and offering up options for the other to choose from. Then each of us could plan our domain in the way that we liked but still feel like we were sharing the labor of the household equally.
My current partner defers most planning work to me. I researched most of the options for our wedding and boiled venues, caterers, etc. down to a manageable list that she could choose from. I had the timetable with the run of show for the wedding that was shared with our minister, Best Person, venue coordinator and caterer. I do the bills for the household, and the cooking and the vacation planning and the social calendar. She handles the pets, the decorating, the plants, and laundry.
She used to feel anxious about "not pulling her weight" but the way we learned to put it is that I was good at planning things that needed to be tracked over time and she was good with chores and routines that needed to happen everyday but didn't need to be planned out beyond that day and that's all fine. The work needs to be done and if she handles that stuff, I don't have to think about it and it is still valued.
(Edit to add: also we have a bobandalice@ email for our utilities, shared checking and streaming account signups, as well as a "what if I get hit by a bus and you need to pay bills while going through Googles process for getting access to my email" but it really is me mostly checking it)
I recognize this article is more about male privilege and the gendering of household tasks than about how to equitably share household chores, but also just offering up that even when an equitable distribution of cognitive labor in a household is created it can look very different from person to person.
posted by bl1nk at 5:16 AM on April 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
My current partner defers most planning work to me. I researched most of the options for our wedding and boiled venues, caterers, etc. down to a manageable list that she could choose from. I had the timetable with the run of show for the wedding that was shared with our minister, Best Person, venue coordinator and caterer. I do the bills for the household, and the cooking and the vacation planning and the social calendar. She handles the pets, the decorating, the plants, and laundry.
She used to feel anxious about "not pulling her weight" but the way we learned to put it is that I was good at planning things that needed to be tracked over time and she was good with chores and routines that needed to happen everyday but didn't need to be planned out beyond that day and that's all fine. The work needs to be done and if she handles that stuff, I don't have to think about it and it is still valued.
(Edit to add: also we have a bobandalice@ email for our utilities, shared checking and streaming account signups, as well as a "what if I get hit by a bus and you need to pay bills while going through Googles process for getting access to my email" but it really is me mostly checking it)
I recognize this article is more about male privilege and the gendering of household tasks than about how to equitably share household chores, but also just offering up that even when an equitable distribution of cognitive labor in a household is created it can look very different from person to person.
posted by bl1nk at 5:16 AM on April 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Sad that men who practice these skill all day at work still don't feel comfortable enough to do so at home.
There are a lot of reasons they say that patriarchy and gender roles hurt everybody.
the need for male bodied people to finish electrical work, re-do all the outlets to code, maintain an HVAC, wire the sound system, make the lighting nice, patch the fucking drywall, do emergency plumbing, or even rough-in new electrical lines, maintain the internet security for the home--or retrofit appliances and electronics when energy efficient technologies come online.
Since when is the need for male bodies? The need is for knowledge - which many men don't have. In rare cases you need above-average physical strength, which women can also have. Though I will say, I've probably had a harder time as a woman getting people at hardware stores and ISPs and so on to take me seriously than I would if I were male-bodied. Maybe that's what that comment meant...
posted by trig at 6:05 AM on April 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
There are a lot of reasons they say that patriarchy and gender roles hurt everybody.
the need for male bodied people to finish electrical work, re-do all the outlets to code, maintain an HVAC, wire the sound system, make the lighting nice, patch the fucking drywall, do emergency plumbing, or even rough-in new electrical lines, maintain the internet security for the home--or retrofit appliances and electronics when energy efficient technologies come online.
Since when is the need for male bodies? The need is for knowledge - which many men don't have. In rare cases you need above-average physical strength, which women can also have. Though I will say, I've probably had a harder time as a woman getting people at hardware stores and ISPs and so on to take me seriously than I would if I were male-bodied. Maybe that's what that comment meant...
posted by trig at 6:05 AM on April 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
> It's crazy how few men have an equal share of influence over their lives & in their homes. How many times have you gone to a married couple's home & had to go to into the mancave or basement to get any sense of the husbands personality or preference?
>>Sad that men who practice these skill all day at work still don't feel comfortable enough to do so at home.
I would disagree with both of these interpretations. There's a big status play (for a certain kind of guy) in having a spouse who handles all the decorating and domestic issues. Those guys always pseudo-complain about it ("I got home and she had redecorated the living room again, har har") but it's a way of showing off that they basically have a full-time staffperson for the household, and not that they don't have influence over the outcome. (Like, what are the chances of that wife redecorating the house in a way that would be embarrassing for the husband's work colleagues to see?)
Same with the second statement -- it's not that the men don't feel comfortable to use the same skills at home that they use at work, it's that they are benefiting by having someone else do that work.
I promise you, if no one were cleaning the house over decades this would do far more harm to the equity in the house than not having nice lighting or even not having up-to-date electrical or energy-efficient appliances.
Also, it's a lot easier and cheaper to hire someone to do those intermittent tasks like rewiring an outlet or mowing the lawn than it is to hire someone to do all of the daily household labor -- especially if there are kids involved, you would need to hire a full-time nanny who is also willing to take on daily cooking and cleaning, which isn't cheap. But for the intermittent work that is often coded as "male," there are lots of providers and you only need them once in a while (unless you own a huge ranch that you visit occasionally, in which case you are hiring one or more full-time employees to manage the place).
posted by Dip Flash at 6:30 AM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
>>Sad that men who practice these skill all day at work still don't feel comfortable enough to do so at home.
I would disagree with both of these interpretations. There's a big status play (for a certain kind of guy) in having a spouse who handles all the decorating and domestic issues. Those guys always pseudo-complain about it ("I got home and she had redecorated the living room again, har har") but it's a way of showing off that they basically have a full-time staffperson for the household, and not that they don't have influence over the outcome. (Like, what are the chances of that wife redecorating the house in a way that would be embarrassing for the husband's work colleagues to see?)
Same with the second statement -- it's not that the men don't feel comfortable to use the same skills at home that they use at work, it's that they are benefiting by having someone else do that work.
I promise you, if no one were cleaning the house over decades this would do far more harm to the equity in the house than not having nice lighting or even not having up-to-date electrical or energy-efficient appliances.
Also, it's a lot easier and cheaper to hire someone to do those intermittent tasks like rewiring an outlet or mowing the lawn than it is to hire someone to do all of the daily household labor -- especially if there are kids involved, you would need to hire a full-time nanny who is also willing to take on daily cooking and cleaning, which isn't cheap. But for the intermittent work that is often coded as "male," there are lots of providers and you only need them once in a while (unless you own a huge ranch that you visit occasionally, in which case you are hiring one or more full-time employees to manage the place).
posted by Dip Flash at 6:30 AM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
But the study over decades probably has not accounted for, say, the need for male bodied people to finish electrical work, re-do all the outlets to code, maintain an HVAC, wire the sound system, make the lighting nice, patch the fucking drywall, do emergency plumbing, or even rough-in new electrical lines, maintain the internet security for the home--or retrofit appliances and electronics when energy efficient technologies come online.
I do some of these things and they still don’t compare to the amount of cognitive load that two children’s winter/spring/summer/fall shoes and wardrobes take every year, because managing the kids’ wardrobes also involves knowing where the ethical clothing is, what’s on sale, that boys’ jackets sell out before Nov 1, that one son will never do up laces even if he is capable*, managing the kids’ expectations vs. budget, hauling them through the dreaded Shoe Store Fitting and snow pants buying replete with food court bribes, wiping tears when there are no Raptors hoodies left in their size…all scheduled against homework and practices and art classes. And then if the clothing is itchy/uncool/or someone said the nice looking shoes fit but they don’t, bandaid and solution dispensing. I haven’t even touched laundry or gloves yet.
I’ll take the HVAC maintenance! It’s peaceful to clean the filter! I can call an expert for an annual check! We don’t have a sound system wired in. Our outlets are to code. I hired the roofers. I can set up a wifi password.
* infamously my spouse bought my 9 year old at the time a pair of lace-up winter boots (like work boots) which ended up with snow down them every day on the way back from school until we went back and got slip on/Velcro ones.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:02 AM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
I do some of these things and they still don’t compare to the amount of cognitive load that two children’s winter/spring/summer/fall shoes and wardrobes take every year, because managing the kids’ wardrobes also involves knowing where the ethical clothing is, what’s on sale, that boys’ jackets sell out before Nov 1, that one son will never do up laces even if he is capable*, managing the kids’ expectations vs. budget, hauling them through the dreaded Shoe Store Fitting and snow pants buying replete with food court bribes, wiping tears when there are no Raptors hoodies left in their size…all scheduled against homework and practices and art classes. And then if the clothing is itchy/uncool/or someone said the nice looking shoes fit but they don’t, bandaid and solution dispensing. I haven’t even touched laundry or gloves yet.
I’ll take the HVAC maintenance! It’s peaceful to clean the filter! I can call an expert for an annual check! We don’t have a sound system wired in. Our outlets are to code. I hired the roofers. I can set up a wifi password.
* infamously my spouse bought my 9 year old at the time a pair of lace-up winter boots (like work boots) which ended up with snow down them every day on the way back from school until we went back and got slip on/Velcro ones.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:02 AM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
Maybe it's different in the US, but in my experience help with female-gendered tasks, nannies and housekeepers and cleaners, are found only with difficulty by word of mouth among people who are half embarrassed to need them because women are supposed to run a household without help.
All found in the phone book or various on-line sources, but again in the US, the median salary for someone who hires a lawn-keeper (male coded task) is only slightly higher than the US median salary and median net worth. The median net worth of someone who regularly hires a house cleaner is over $2 million dollars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:22 AM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
All found in the phone book or various on-line sources, but again in the US, the median salary for someone who hires a lawn-keeper (male coded task) is only slightly higher than the US median salary and median net worth. The median net worth of someone who regularly hires a house cleaner is over $2 million dollars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:22 AM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I constantly find these discussions interesting because my spouse and I have almost entirely flipped the gender dynamic in our relationship, barring a few small things.
Me (she/hers)
-Career minded project manager
-Not especially maternal
-Pays most bills
-Does dishes
-Cleans and tidys (intermittently)
-Packs school bags
-Does laundry
-Does dishes
-Minor repairs
-Anything with power tools
-Bakes
-Researches major purchases (example: roofing contractor)
-Configures household electronics & devices
-Finds it super difficult to open up emotionally, even after years of therapy
Spouse (he/him)
-Handles all communications with school, therapists, etc. (our child has some developmental hurdles so this is basically a full-time job)
-Plans & executes all meal planning/shopping/cooking
-Acts as my second brain (reminders, task follow-up, etc.)
-Takes kid to most appointments
-Buys most kid apparel
-Does the financials
-Cleans (probably 70%)
-Arranges 90% of our social plans
-Super paternal - draws a lot of satisfaction from parenting!
-Emotionally aware and open
Our split tends to be close to 50/50 in my opinion, but my spouse ends of carrying a lot of the mental load - and also is the one more likely to do independent activities outside the house.
posted by turtlebackriding at 7:40 AM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Me (she/hers)
-Career minded project manager
-Not especially maternal
-Pays most bills
-Does dishes
-Cleans and tidys (intermittently)
-Packs school bags
-Does laundry
-Does dishes
-Minor repairs
-Anything with power tools
-Bakes
-Researches major purchases (example: roofing contractor)
-Configures household electronics & devices
-Finds it super difficult to open up emotionally, even after years of therapy
Spouse (he/him)
-Handles all communications with school, therapists, etc. (our child has some developmental hurdles so this is basically a full-time job)
-Plans & executes all meal planning/shopping/cooking
-Acts as my second brain (reminders, task follow-up, etc.)
-Takes kid to most appointments
-Buys most kid apparel
-Does the financials
-Cleans (probably 70%)
-Arranges 90% of our social plans
-Super paternal - draws a lot of satisfaction from parenting!
-Emotionally aware and open
Our split tends to be close to 50/50 in my opinion, but my spouse ends of carrying a lot of the mental load - and also is the one more likely to do independent activities outside the house.
posted by turtlebackriding at 7:40 AM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
four primary activities appeared over and over: anticipating a need, identifying options for filling it, deciding among the options, and monitoring the results.
As brainwane mentions, this framing is really useful!
Noticing things and anticipating future needs.... I want to say that's a superpower or witchcraft, but calling it that minimizes how freaking hard it must be to learn how to do this for a family. I'm not good at doing it for my own damn self.
ETA as the article mentions, this is mostly done by women.
posted by travertina at 8:08 AM on April 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
As brainwane mentions, this framing is really useful!
Noticing things and anticipating future needs.... I want to say that's a superpower or witchcraft, but calling it that minimizes how freaking hard it must be to learn how to do this for a family. I'm not good at doing it for my own damn self.
ETA as the article mentions, this is mostly done by women.
posted by travertina at 8:08 AM on April 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
My solution to this is not to cohabitate. Obviously that's not going to work for raising kids but I'm not raising kids. The only thing to negotiate is the labor around dinner. We do help each other with all kinds of other stuff, but it's voluntary, and 100% of the cognitive load around those tasks is on the owner of the house/body/pet, etc. The main downside is it's so much more expensive.
posted by HotToddy at 8:20 AM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 8:20 AM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
apologies if this has been mentioned already, but the whole toxic masculinity approach to the blue ribbon for participation, "E for Effort" and the way so many men align so much of their performative identities to professional sports entertainment.. deep down, how many men have the truth at their core, they aren't really contributing and they barely show up and without their (women) partners they'd be lost?
no shit patriarchy rots everything to the core, there is a reason the "man baby" is such a huge deal in so many households/relationships.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:30 AM on April 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
no shit patriarchy rots everything to the core, there is a reason the "man baby" is such a huge deal in so many households/relationships.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:30 AM on April 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
This was part of my decision not to have kids. I have ADD. Growing up, I looked at the deal women got and said nope to something I knew I'd be bad at and would make me miserable.
posted by jocelmeow at 8:30 AM on April 4, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by jocelmeow at 8:30 AM on April 4, 2023 [15 favorites]
My partner and I split our chores fairly equally, I'd say, but the difference is that every now and again he wants positive acknowledgment that he did A Thing. I'm like, "You don't need to praised for doing X unless I get praise for doing Y."
posted by Kitteh at 8:38 AM on April 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:38 AM on April 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
My husband and I (female) just did the Fair Play cards and it was so interesting to talk through them and see how many times he went “ok, I have the household staples card (tp, paper towels, flour sugar, etc) card. If you notice something getting low can you tell me?” He wasn’t rude about it, but he was so surprised when I said no. That’s part of holding the card. You own the entire thing. It’s up to you to figure out how to do it, but you deal with it entirely.
I really appreciate how they broke out “anticipate a need” in to its own part of the equation.
posted by raccoon409 at 8:42 AM on April 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
I really appreciate how they broke out “anticipate a need” in to its own part of the equation.
posted by raccoon409 at 8:42 AM on April 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
I have been involved in an ongoing family chore (now concluded) where supplies needed to be bought regularly, and inventory needed to be kept so family could monitor when supplies were running low and could order more. (Note that not everyone involved in this work lived in the same household.)
One person set up a shared online spreadsheet, and did data entry for the various supplies, and the rate at which they would be consumed, and how much inventory the household had as of that date. And set up a column with "date we'll run out" calculated from that data, and did the conditional formatting trick so that if the "date we'll run out" was less than two weeks away, the cell background would turn red.
The man who was in charge of doing the ordering asked: what needs to be ordered?
The woman who had made the spreadsheet suggested he look at the spreadsheet for that information.
He said: couldn't you just message me?
She asked whether he didn't have access to the spreadsheet, or tried to find some other way to ask without saying: it's already in the spreadsheet.
He said he didn't like to use stuff like spreadsheets and Google Docs for these kinds of things at home because it felt too much like his day job.
She turned the data from that column of the spreadsheet into a message and sent it to him. She then looked at the Zapier documentation to try to figure out how to get it to automatically send an email or text message when a particular thing happened in a spreadsheet, but never got around to implementing that.
(These two people were not married to each other, btw, and there were reasons she didn't want to cause a fight over this particular issue.)
posted by brainwane at 8:47 AM on April 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
One person set up a shared online spreadsheet, and did data entry for the various supplies, and the rate at which they would be consumed, and how much inventory the household had as of that date. And set up a column with "date we'll run out" calculated from that data, and did the conditional formatting trick so that if the "date we'll run out" was less than two weeks away, the cell background would turn red.
The man who was in charge of doing the ordering asked: what needs to be ordered?
The woman who had made the spreadsheet suggested he look at the spreadsheet for that information.
He said: couldn't you just message me?
She asked whether he didn't have access to the spreadsheet, or tried to find some other way to ask without saying: it's already in the spreadsheet.
He said he didn't like to use stuff like spreadsheets and Google Docs for these kinds of things at home because it felt too much like his day job.
She turned the data from that column of the spreadsheet into a message and sent it to him. She then looked at the Zapier documentation to try to figure out how to get it to automatically send an email or text message when a particular thing happened in a spreadsheet, but never got around to implementing that.
(These two people were not married to each other, btw, and there were reasons she didn't want to cause a fight over this particular issue.)
posted by brainwane at 8:47 AM on April 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
It's crazy how few men have an equal share of influence over their lives & in their homes. How many times have you gone to a married couple's home & had to go to into the mancave or basement to get any sense of the husbands personality or preference?
I mean, that's just part of the problem right? He has a room of his own, and she has to decorate and maintain a bunch of communal rooms with no space where she gets to consider only her needs and taste. Like, if you're gonna pull out an example about how bad we men have it, the fact that we often get space that is solely ours is not really that great of an example.
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:56 AM on April 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
I mean, that's just part of the problem right? He has a room of his own, and she has to decorate and maintain a bunch of communal rooms with no space where she gets to consider only her needs and taste. Like, if you're gonna pull out an example about how bad we men have it, the fact that we often get space that is solely ours is not really that great of an example.
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:56 AM on April 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
Also lawncare and all forms of small engine repair can go straight to fucking hell.
When we bought our house I'd happily mow and trim our tiny yard until one day our neighbor said he didn't want to be a grass farmer and then I didn't either. I'm pretty sure I never mowed the yard again.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:01 AM on April 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
When we bought our house I'd happily mow and trim our tiny yard until one day our neighbor said he didn't want to be a grass farmer and then I didn't either. I'm pretty sure I never mowed the yard again.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:01 AM on April 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gygesringyone, thank you for putting it so well! I’ve basically decorated our home. I think probably a bit more my style than his (though his isn’t well defined) but the vast majority of it is NOTHING like if I lived alone. It would be way more feminine coded/aesthetics. “Bolder” choices in certain places, but I’ve down played it because we both live here! Despite the fact that my husband doesn’t care about photos, I’ve dug up ones from his family to include, found artwork relevant to his interests and background. But it’s the default to assume “the wife” has made those choices entirely for herself
posted by raccoon409 at 9:15 AM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by raccoon409 at 9:15 AM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm a little fascinated by this because most of our household management stuff falls either directly on me (cishet man married to cishet woman), or it really is shared.
In general, she's better at (and enjoys) researching complex options to solutions, while I'm better at (and enjoy) actually making decisions and not stressing out about them too much. Our classic example is vacation planning - I feel overwhelmed looking at 'infinite' options for what to do, but I have no problem looking at 3 itineraries she's sketched and picking one and feeling confident about my choice; by contrast, she enjoys researching and thinking about lots of options, but stresses out about actual decisions and worries a lot about regret. I don't.
My wife has slightly stronger aesthetic preferences than I do but we both care a lot about how our home looks, and pretty much all of our home decor and furniture are the result of extensive discussion, active discussions about preferences and compromises, and annoying amounts of research.
Up until relatively recently she did the bulk of the cooking; these days it's usually either me or we cook together.
I do 95% of:
* Social-calendar wrangling
* Cat feeding and litter cleaning
* Cat sitter scheduling
* Contractor communication, coordination, oversight, and payment
I suspect this is all a little bit due less to gender roles per se and more to executive function plus job situation: Mine is particularly good, and it doesn't cost me much focus or energy to, eg, knock out a load of laundry between meetings; I also have a more flexible job that makes it easy for me to do something household-related for 15 minutes midday. Similarly, I do more dishes than she does - because if we have a load from the night before, I can often find time midday to do it as a nice break from work. She has a career that doesn't allow much easy multitasking, and if it does, her brain isn't wired up for it as much as mine, and it makes her more, not less stressed to pause during a workday to do other things.
We don't (yet?) have kids, and I'm not sure we know how things would shake out in that case. I suspect that regardless of who does more childcare in a "literally caring for child" sense, I'm going to take point on appointments, scheduling, etc just because I remain better at that kind of thing than her - limited by the reality that we know that a lot of organizations and offices will just... reflexively contact Mom even when Dad is listed as the primary contact.
posted by Tomorrowful at 10:23 AM on April 4, 2023
In general, she's better at (and enjoys) researching complex options to solutions, while I'm better at (and enjoy) actually making decisions and not stressing out about them too much. Our classic example is vacation planning - I feel overwhelmed looking at 'infinite' options for what to do, but I have no problem looking at 3 itineraries she's sketched and picking one and feeling confident about my choice; by contrast, she enjoys researching and thinking about lots of options, but stresses out about actual decisions and worries a lot about regret. I don't.
My wife has slightly stronger aesthetic preferences than I do but we both care a lot about how our home looks, and pretty much all of our home decor and furniture are the result of extensive discussion, active discussions about preferences and compromises, and annoying amounts of research.
Up until relatively recently she did the bulk of the cooking; these days it's usually either me or we cook together.
I do 95% of:
* Social-calendar wrangling
* Cat feeding and litter cleaning
* Cat sitter scheduling
* Contractor communication, coordination, oversight, and payment
I suspect this is all a little bit due less to gender roles per se and more to executive function plus job situation: Mine is particularly good, and it doesn't cost me much focus or energy to, eg, knock out a load of laundry between meetings; I also have a more flexible job that makes it easy for me to do something household-related for 15 minutes midday. Similarly, I do more dishes than she does - because if we have a load from the night before, I can often find time midday to do it as a nice break from work. She has a career that doesn't allow much easy multitasking, and if it does, her brain isn't wired up for it as much as mine, and it makes her more, not less stressed to pause during a workday to do other things.
We don't (yet?) have kids, and I'm not sure we know how things would shake out in that case. I suspect that regardless of who does more childcare in a "literally caring for child" sense, I'm going to take point on appointments, scheduling, etc just because I remain better at that kind of thing than her - limited by the reality that we know that a lot of organizations and offices will just... reflexively contact Mom even when Dad is listed as the primary contact.
posted by Tomorrowful at 10:23 AM on April 4, 2023
Hello everyone!
Here to drop a link to "Equal partners: improving gender equality at home" by Kate Mangino who did a Q&A with Alison Daminger here.
I read it and found it very interesting. My partner & I have conversations periodically about how we share housework including cognitive load, and the book is a great way to do a self-checkup. If you think you're doing great, you can make sure you're not deluding yourself, and if you want to do better, this book helps too. Strongly recommend.
posted by ianso at 1:29 PM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
Here to drop a link to "Equal partners: improving gender equality at home" by Kate Mangino who did a Q&A with Alison Daminger here.
I read it and found it very interesting. My partner & I have conversations periodically about how we share housework including cognitive load, and the book is a great way to do a self-checkup. If you think you're doing great, you can make sure you're not deluding yourself, and if you want to do better, this book helps too. Strongly recommend.
posted by ianso at 1:29 PM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
(These two people were not married to each other, btw, and there were reasons she didn't want to cause a fight over this particular issue.)
1-800-JOHN-WICK
posted by praemunire at 2:12 PM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
1-800-JOHN-WICK
posted by praemunire at 2:12 PM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
My solution to this is not to cohabitate. Obviously that's not going to work for raising kids but I'm not raising kids. The only thing to negotiate is the labor around dinner. We do help each other with all kinds of other stuff, but it's voluntary, and 100% of the cognitive load around those tasks is on the owner of the house/body/pet, etc. The main downside is it's so much more expensive.
GUH it is so much more expensive that I can't think about it lest I get depressed. But it is so much better, oh my god, so many orders of magnitudes better.
There's something about always being a guest that keeps you from taking the labor for granted. Don't get me wrong--we have been together quite awhile and are both very comfortable in each others' homes. We're not on Church Clothes behavior or anything--we're not even "text before you show up" level. But still, there's just an awareness.
I know it cannot last forever but my goodness do I enjoy it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:55 PM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
GUH it is so much more expensive that I can't think about it lest I get depressed. But it is so much better, oh my god, so many orders of magnitudes better.
There's something about always being a guest that keeps you from taking the labor for granted. Don't get me wrong--we have been together quite awhile and are both very comfortable in each others' homes. We're not on Church Clothes behavior or anything--we're not even "text before you show up" level. But still, there's just an awareness.
I know it cannot last forever but my goodness do I enjoy it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:55 PM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Two comments that my partner (who is a cis man) said to me (a cis woman), that are kind of related to this topic.
I got a shout-out of appreciation from my team at work today. But I'm kind of embarrassed to share it. You're gonna laugh. They said that I'm so organized and on top of things.
Translation: In our home life at that time, he was not so on top of things, and I felt like I was always reminding him of stuff or watching out for things before they are missed.
I'm kind of afraid to ask you questions sometimes, because the answer to my question might be in your email or notes or it's easily google-able, so I wonder if I just have to read it again and again to figure it out.
Translation: Kind of like brainwane's story above of the man who couldn't even be bothered to look at the mega-spreadsheet that woman prepared, we've had similar interactions in the past, but on a smaller scale. "What time is the event? Where is it?" Umm... I put the event, with the address, in your Google Calendar to make it easier for you, like you asked me to. So now you want me to open up your calendar so I can read the info out loud?
Thankfully it has gotten a loooot better. Part of it is that we've outsourced a lot of the routine stuff - we have a housekeeper whom he recently taught how we like to do our laundry, we get weekly meal kits. We don't have kids. Though perhaps the closest equivalent is he is the registered owner and main contact for the cats at the vet. It used to be me, and I was keeping track of medications, symptoms, last visit, "watch list" for health problems since they're seniors, etc. - gave that all to him.
I shared the link with him, and he was like, "A ha! The noticing and anticipating! That's right, that's next for me to work on."
A note about those whose partners "love to do the research" - check in with them if some part of this is because they feel that your research is shoddy or incomplete. I know there are maximizers vs satisficers and that's a whole other debate. Consider if your satisfactory option is, in fact, satisfactory for all. Like if you booked a fancy restaurant for my birthday dinner but now I have to walk five city blocks in heels to go to the next event, or my vegetarian cousin can literally only eat lettuce because you booked a steakhouse... and if this happened three years in a row, then yeah, I would learn to love researching stuff, too!
posted by tinydancer at 3:56 PM on April 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
I got a shout-out of appreciation from my team at work today. But I'm kind of embarrassed to share it. You're gonna laugh. They said that I'm so organized and on top of things.
Translation: In our home life at that time, he was not so on top of things, and I felt like I was always reminding him of stuff or watching out for things before they are missed.
I'm kind of afraid to ask you questions sometimes, because the answer to my question might be in your email or notes or it's easily google-able, so I wonder if I just have to read it again and again to figure it out.
Translation: Kind of like brainwane's story above of the man who couldn't even be bothered to look at the mega-spreadsheet that woman prepared, we've had similar interactions in the past, but on a smaller scale. "What time is the event? Where is it?" Umm... I put the event, with the address, in your Google Calendar to make it easier for you, like you asked me to. So now you want me to open up your calendar so I can read the info out loud?
Thankfully it has gotten a loooot better. Part of it is that we've outsourced a lot of the routine stuff - we have a housekeeper whom he recently taught how we like to do our laundry, we get weekly meal kits. We don't have kids. Though perhaps the closest equivalent is he is the registered owner and main contact for the cats at the vet. It used to be me, and I was keeping track of medications, symptoms, last visit, "watch list" for health problems since they're seniors, etc. - gave that all to him.
I shared the link with him, and he was like, "A ha! The noticing and anticipating! That's right, that's next for me to work on."
A note about those whose partners "love to do the research" - check in with them if some part of this is because they feel that your research is shoddy or incomplete. I know there are maximizers vs satisficers and that's a whole other debate. Consider if your satisfactory option is, in fact, satisfactory for all. Like if you booked a fancy restaurant for my birthday dinner but now I have to walk five city blocks in heels to go to the next event, or my vegetarian cousin can literally only eat lettuce because you booked a steakhouse... and if this happened three years in a row, then yeah, I would learn to love researching stuff, too!
posted by tinydancer at 3:56 PM on April 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
the need for male bodied people to finish electrical work, re-do all the outlets to code, maintain an HVAC, wire the sound system, make the lighting nice, patch the fucking drywall, do emergency plumbing, or even rough-in new electrical lines, maintain the internet security for the home--or retrofit appliances and electronics when energy efficient technologies come online.
These are all tasks that almost never need to be done, and most of which almost certainly require bringing in a professional.
I don't think it's an accident that men code these tasks as "male," and thus have these jobs as examples when they want to claim that they're doing "an equal share" of the work around the house as they, demonstrably, do nothing. (Often while hiding in their man-caves, the designated safe space for men to go, lest they be expected to do anything.) "But who do you think is going to patch the drywall?" Are there holes in the drywall? No, but there are four baskets of laundry that need to be washed, and tomorrow's lunches to be packed.
Part of the issue men have with an equitable division of labor is that, in their efforts to get out of having to do anything, they insist on a role-based division instead of a task-based division. Gender roles just play right into that, because who can challenge someone on the basis of "I'm a man"? And conveniently all the "man tasks" are the ones done, at best, weekly. Maybe seasonally, maybe once a year, maybe once every several years. I saw one asshat try to list "changing the lightbulbs" as a man-coded task RECENTLY, as if light bulbs don't last decades between changes now.
A task-based division of labor is more fair. Everyone knows it. You make a list of the tasks and divide it by the number of people in the labor pool. But men don't want it to be FAIR. They want to have all the tasks that don't actually need to be done. So they come up with a list of tasks that never need to be done, until it equals the list of tasks that need doing on a daily or semi-daily basis, and call it "fair". Of course, all you need to do to call out the unfairness of that list is to offer to switch. How about I take care of the oil changes and cleaning out the gutter and patching the drywall, and YOU cook dinner every night and do all the grocery shopping? Suddenly that's not fair either--because in their mind, fairness is them not having to do anything.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:17 PM on April 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
These are all tasks that almost never need to be done, and most of which almost certainly require bringing in a professional.
I don't think it's an accident that men code these tasks as "male," and thus have these jobs as examples when they want to claim that they're doing "an equal share" of the work around the house as they, demonstrably, do nothing. (Often while hiding in their man-caves, the designated safe space for men to go, lest they be expected to do anything.) "But who do you think is going to patch the drywall?" Are there holes in the drywall? No, but there are four baskets of laundry that need to be washed, and tomorrow's lunches to be packed.
Part of the issue men have with an equitable division of labor is that, in their efforts to get out of having to do anything, they insist on a role-based division instead of a task-based division. Gender roles just play right into that, because who can challenge someone on the basis of "I'm a man"? And conveniently all the "man tasks" are the ones done, at best, weekly. Maybe seasonally, maybe once a year, maybe once every several years. I saw one asshat try to list "changing the lightbulbs" as a man-coded task RECENTLY, as if light bulbs don't last decades between changes now.
A task-based division of labor is more fair. Everyone knows it. You make a list of the tasks and divide it by the number of people in the labor pool. But men don't want it to be FAIR. They want to have all the tasks that don't actually need to be done. So they come up with a list of tasks that never need to be done, until it equals the list of tasks that need doing on a daily or semi-daily basis, and call it "fair". Of course, all you need to do to call out the unfairness of that list is to offer to switch. How about I take care of the oil changes and cleaning out the gutter and patching the drywall, and YOU cook dinner every night and do all the grocery shopping? Suddenly that's not fair either--because in their mind, fairness is them not having to do anything.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:17 PM on April 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Intriguingly I’ve almost never observed this relationship pattern in any of my family. My grandpa did all of the cognitive and most of the other labor in the household because my grandma suffered cognitive damage from electroshock therapy when she was a young adult and was on and off lithium her whole life. My father in law is a project manager who manages the entire household because his wife has the ADHD of her three kids combined and has been unmedicated her entire life—in fact she laments about him cleaning too much and anticipating too many needs because it doesn’t give their mentally ill daughter a chance to learn her own independence skills. My own parents came the closest in that my dad worked full time and my mom didn’t work at all most of my life so she was technically participating in childcare, but she was incredibly neglectful and shoved all of the cognitive and most of the physical labor tasks off on her own children (I was expected to manage my own heart medication at 13, if I didn’t refill it that was my own fault). She didn’t even have to deal with getting me to school because she “homeschooled” me, by which I mean she gave me a textbook and a workbook and told me to finish it by summer, and never checked in between then and the end of the semester. So she simply didn’t do most of that cognitive labor and tbh that is probably why she and my father have had a lovely relationship their entire marriage. Did result in one of her kids cutting her off, but 🤷🏻
But essentially growing up my exposure to heterosexual relationships was largely men who work and take care of the household (or men who work and then no one takes care of the household, which is less admirable) while the women don’t work and don’t take care of the household, because they’re too disabled to do either. But their husbands have loved them deeply anyway and even in the fucked up situation of my own parents I guess there’s something profound there.
Interestingly, I also am the primary breadwinner and do most cognitive tasks in my (queer) relationship, though my partner takes on more of the physical labor if solely through being the person who can drive. We’re both transmasculine, though I lean a lot more traditionally butch than they do. It seems perhaps inevitable that my relationship to gender would be a little wonky, given the examples I had growing up. No idea how or why it shook out that way, but it’s fascinating (in a horrifying and resigned kind of way) to read about how common it is for that to… not to be the experience. It really makes me sad to hear about so many men not giving a fuck.
posted by brook horse at 7:36 PM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
But essentially growing up my exposure to heterosexual relationships was largely men who work and take care of the household (or men who work and then no one takes care of the household, which is less admirable) while the women don’t work and don’t take care of the household, because they’re too disabled to do either. But their husbands have loved them deeply anyway and even in the fucked up situation of my own parents I guess there’s something profound there.
Interestingly, I also am the primary breadwinner and do most cognitive tasks in my (queer) relationship, though my partner takes on more of the physical labor if solely through being the person who can drive. We’re both transmasculine, though I lean a lot more traditionally butch than they do. It seems perhaps inevitable that my relationship to gender would be a little wonky, given the examples I had growing up. No idea how or why it shook out that way, but it’s fascinating (in a horrifying and resigned kind of way) to read about how common it is for that to… not to be the experience. It really makes me sad to hear about so many men not giving a fuck.
posted by brook horse at 7:36 PM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
We socially train men not to give a fuck because this works out in their favor. And, it frees them up to work in the factories and labor pool and support the white collar class. It also frees them up to go to war and blow themselves to smithereens for the wealth of the nation (or the few). Someone actually does have to raise the children so we must choose someone to do that and society chose women. Secondarily, they chose non-white individuals to further subjugate as a class. This is exactly what they mean when they say the personal is political.
When given the option and the chance and the training to be a nurturer, many men rise to that task and find joy in it. There is joy in it and men can be robbed of this. Sorry, a joyful man who is happy at home with his children and partner is just less likely to go to war. But, more and more men are able to be actualized and they are being stymied in this pursuit by our social mores which just won't quit subjugating! It's too lucrative. See also: attacks on reproductive freedom, et al.
Another scenario where I see men step up is when they get divorced. Doesn't happen all the time for sure but at least in my wider circle of peers, I've been mostly impressed with how divorced Dads have had to learn how to be 100% present and learn how to parent and household on their own. They are way more likely to get immediately re-married, though, than women as they benefit so much from that relationship. I do have some friends going through divorce right now and they are splitting custody and assets 50/50 and he can't seem to figure out that she will not be a babysitter during his time with the kids. She's the overwhelming breadwinner, BTW, and reeling at giving up half of all their assets. She's also a heavily involved mother and he really wanted a big family, so they had one, and now she's missing her kids terribly being a part-time parent. I digress.... it's been amusing watching him come to grips with how good he had it in the wife department and try to figure out the kind of Dad/Mom he's going to be. So... "One way to make your man step up, ladies..., divorce him!" [ba-da-bing!]
posted by amanda at 9:43 PM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
When given the option and the chance and the training to be a nurturer, many men rise to that task and find joy in it. There is joy in it and men can be robbed of this. Sorry, a joyful man who is happy at home with his children and partner is just less likely to go to war. But, more and more men are able to be actualized and they are being stymied in this pursuit by our social mores which just won't quit subjugating! It's too lucrative. See also: attacks on reproductive freedom, et al.
Another scenario where I see men step up is when they get divorced. Doesn't happen all the time for sure but at least in my wider circle of peers, I've been mostly impressed with how divorced Dads have had to learn how to be 100% present and learn how to parent and household on their own. They are way more likely to get immediately re-married, though, than women as they benefit so much from that relationship. I do have some friends going through divorce right now and they are splitting custody and assets 50/50 and he can't seem to figure out that she will not be a babysitter during his time with the kids. She's the overwhelming breadwinner, BTW, and reeling at giving up half of all their assets. She's also a heavily involved mother and he really wanted a big family, so they had one, and now she's missing her kids terribly being a part-time parent. I digress.... it's been amusing watching him come to grips with how good he had it in the wife department and try to figure out the kind of Dad/Mom he's going to be. So... "One way to make your man step up, ladies..., divorce him!" [ba-da-bing!]
posted by amanda at 9:43 PM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
And, it frees them up to work in the factories and labor pool and support the white collar class.
Not just that, but to set the standards to excel in that class. I was talking about this with my spouse yesterday and we had a discussion about lunch hour. He generally doesn't take one, and when I had more of a desk job, I often did...but I spent that lunch hour doing things like shopping for the endless "spirit days"/birthday gifts/holiday gifts/cards/teacher gifts, calling dentists, calling older relatives to check in on them, etc. Almost all pure emotional labour.
Doing that work at lunch codes you as a lesser worker...the Real Bosses either workout at lunch or network or don't take lunch. I think this is some of what this article is touching on...and that's before the cognitive load aspects.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:53 AM on April 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not just that, but to set the standards to excel in that class. I was talking about this with my spouse yesterday and we had a discussion about lunch hour. He generally doesn't take one, and when I had more of a desk job, I often did...but I spent that lunch hour doing things like shopping for the endless "spirit days"/birthday gifts/holiday gifts/cards/teacher gifts, calling dentists, calling older relatives to check in on them, etc. Almost all pure emotional labour.
Doing that work at lunch codes you as a lesser worker...the Real Bosses either workout at lunch or network or don't take lunch. I think this is some of what this article is touching on...and that's before the cognitive load aspects.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:53 AM on April 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
More likely, he has delegated decorating questions to his partner because he doesn't want to take responsibility for the look and feel of the house
Oh, no, no: this isn't it at all, I'm afraid. Am middle-class, middle-aged person with a huge palette of friends and acquaintances, and in Every. Single. Case. like this, the partner (this is also totally the norm for all the many gay couples I know) has a near-psychosis about precisely the way they want the house to Look, and any deviation from The Plan will result in so much time wasted and trouble that the other partner very quickly learns to say "fuck it" to themself and "yes, dear" to the Decorator Partner. Among straight couples, this is nearly always the wife and it's the husband saying "yes, dear", but I can think of at least three counterexamples off the top of my head. This is why the second partner in this scenario wants a mancave or a study or whatever, so they can have one goddamn room that isn't decorated according to The Plan. Just one room without coordinated throw pillows, that's all they want. Go read Reddit, and all the stories of Partner 1 waiting until Partner 2 leaves for the day to throw out their anime figurines or whatever because those are childish and "our house needs to look like adults live here". I've known... at least four couples, that I can think of right now while on my phone waiting for a train, where that exact thing either sent them to divorce or just permanently neutered Partner 2.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:24 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh, no, no: this isn't it at all, I'm afraid. Am middle-class, middle-aged person with a huge palette of friends and acquaintances, and in Every. Single. Case. like this, the partner (this is also totally the norm for all the many gay couples I know) has a near-psychosis about precisely the way they want the house to Look, and any deviation from The Plan will result in so much time wasted and trouble that the other partner very quickly learns to say "fuck it" to themself and "yes, dear" to the Decorator Partner. Among straight couples, this is nearly always the wife and it's the husband saying "yes, dear", but I can think of at least three counterexamples off the top of my head. This is why the second partner in this scenario wants a mancave or a study or whatever, so they can have one goddamn room that isn't decorated according to The Plan. Just one room without coordinated throw pillows, that's all they want. Go read Reddit, and all the stories of Partner 1 waiting until Partner 2 leaves for the day to throw out their anime figurines or whatever because those are childish and "our house needs to look like adults live here". I've known... at least four couples, that I can think of right now while on my phone waiting for a train, where that exact thing either sent them to divorce or just permanently neutered Partner 2.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:24 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
My partner is the one that anticipates problems and also the one that does most of the paperwork. We take turns shopping and cooking. On cleaning days she does the bathrooms and I do the floors. I do most things that involve talking to people. Answering the door, phone, calling helpdesks. I also do things like install appliances, assemble furniture, maintain the network and media server. The dishes are mostly me, she does all the driving. I think it's pretty equitable. We both do stuff the other doesn't like doing. Some of our tasks are kind of traditionally gendered, other times the script is flipped. On that note, I can't help but wonder how the divvying up of tasks correlates with bedroom activities...
posted by signsofrain at 8:18 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by signsofrain at 8:18 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Go read Reddit, and all the stories of Partner 1 waiting until Partner 2 leaves for the day to throw out their anime figurines or whatever because those are childish and "our house needs to look like adults live here". I've known... at least four couples, that I can think of right now while on my phone waiting for a train, where that exact thing either sent them to divorce or just permanently neutered Partner 2.
IMO the number of un-diagnosed hoarders is larger than what one might imagine, which is completely separate from 'the plan' on how the home looks. And the 'the plan' about the look of the home also applies to many other issues, including schooling.
I find it kind of weird that no social scientist has ever studied this, despite it being such a trope. I guess they can't make it past the 'whoa -this is all gendered!!!' phase, or maybe from a sociological standpoint it's completely normal for the kids of an upper class family to go to the exact same schools their (mostly likely) father went to. That's called 'heritage', not 'mom left out of the plan'. This is such a huge issue too, especially about schooling. I'm talking years of redlining, white flight, degradation of public systems, etc. Shouldn't someone be studying exactly who is making those decisions?
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:11 AM on April 6, 2023
IMO the number of un-diagnosed hoarders is larger than what one might imagine, which is completely separate from 'the plan' on how the home looks. And the 'the plan' about the look of the home also applies to many other issues, including schooling.
I find it kind of weird that no social scientist has ever studied this, despite it being such a trope. I guess they can't make it past the 'whoa -this is all gendered!!!' phase, or maybe from a sociological standpoint it's completely normal for the kids of an upper class family to go to the exact same schools their (mostly likely) father went to. That's called 'heritage', not 'mom left out of the plan'. This is such a huge issue too, especially about schooling. I'm talking years of redlining, white flight, degradation of public systems, etc. Shouldn't someone be studying exactly who is making those decisions?
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:11 AM on April 6, 2023
Go read Reddit, and all the stories of Partner 1 waiting until Partner 2 leaves for the day to throw out their anime figurines or whatever because those are childish and "our house needs to look like adults live here". I've known... at least four couples, that I can think of right now while on my phone waiting for a train, where that exact thing either sent them to divorce or just permanently neutered Partner 2.
I mean, we could do this all day. “Go to [place] and read how Partner 2 spends all their excess capital on hobbies and their own special interests while Partner 1 frets about whether they can afford to have a second child or send those kids to college.”
Also, the “neutered” word is really making me twitchy. Are collectibles and hobbies a sexuality? Does it feel that way? As part of my job, I go into houses of all kinds of folks and there’s both a sameness and a variety to what I see there. Same as in fashion or cars, as much as we want to be unique, we are mostly all shopping from the same places with similar pressures and constraints.
Like it’s the truly rare home that has a fully unique decorating style. And most “men’s spaces” actually don’t have any defining feature and tend to be the least visually interesting parts of the house. Especially the last few years with people working from home there is even a greater amount of “his space” than ever before but often they are completely devoid of character. Although, maybe that’s a sample size/demographic problem? The households who can afford to hire me aren’t spending money on excess hobbies? …are more enmeshed with the capitalist grind which demands blandness and subjugation of self? Highly possible.
posted by amanda at 7:38 AM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean, we could do this all day. “Go to [place] and read how Partner 2 spends all their excess capital on hobbies and their own special interests while Partner 1 frets about whether they can afford to have a second child or send those kids to college.”
Also, the “neutered” word is really making me twitchy. Are collectibles and hobbies a sexuality? Does it feel that way? As part of my job, I go into houses of all kinds of folks and there’s both a sameness and a variety to what I see there. Same as in fashion or cars, as much as we want to be unique, we are mostly all shopping from the same places with similar pressures and constraints.
Like it’s the truly rare home that has a fully unique decorating style. And most “men’s spaces” actually don’t have any defining feature and tend to be the least visually interesting parts of the house. Especially the last few years with people working from home there is even a greater amount of “his space” than ever before but often they are completely devoid of character. Although, maybe that’s a sample size/demographic problem? The households who can afford to hire me aren’t spending money on excess hobbies? …are more enmeshed with the capitalist grind which demands blandness and subjugation of self? Highly possible.
posted by amanda at 7:38 AM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe I don't live where houses are cheap and big enough for such things, but I don't remember ever seeing a "man cave" in real life. I can think of one couple where the husband has a home office and the wife doesn't, and a few families where there's a crafting area that's mostly used by the wife and a garage work area that's mostly used by the husband.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:00 PM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:00 PM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Something I haven’t seen discussed much is the fact that some of the things described as extra cognitive labor taken on by women are things that are very much hobbies but treated as if they’re necessary. Party planning and decorating (as two things mentioned in the article and thread) are hobbies. You can socialize without having parties, and your house can look clean and presentable without decorating. If you want to plan a party or decorate, go for it! And if your partner collaborates and supports you in that hobby, all the better. But we also don’t generally say someone is slacking in their marriage if they don’t help their partner plan their next knitting project or computer build or auto refurbish. Because people can and often do engage in their hobbies on their own.
I think the reason these get put forward as “the husband doesn’t care!” is because these hobbies are forced on women as a necessary part of being a woman, whether she actually enjoys the hobby or not. And I wish we spent more time saying, “Actually, no one has to plan a party for their one year old unless they really enjoy planning/hosting parties. It’s actually fine if a space is just functional and it doesn’t have to be aesthetically pleasing unless making it so makes you happy. We shouldn’t be expecting women to engage in any of this.” Instead of seeing these unreasonable standards being pushed on women and saying only, “Men do a horrible job of helping women meet these unreasonable standards.”
But that’s just my butch opinion. [twirls carabiner, it slips out of my hand and knocks over the spare cereal boxes that are stacked conveniently but unaesthetically in the kitchen hallway]
posted by brook horse at 7:59 PM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think the reason these get put forward as “the husband doesn’t care!” is because these hobbies are forced on women as a necessary part of being a woman, whether she actually enjoys the hobby or not. And I wish we spent more time saying, “Actually, no one has to plan a party for their one year old unless they really enjoy planning/hosting parties. It’s actually fine if a space is just functional and it doesn’t have to be aesthetically pleasing unless making it so makes you happy. We shouldn’t be expecting women to engage in any of this.” Instead of seeing these unreasonable standards being pushed on women and saying only, “Men do a horrible job of helping women meet these unreasonable standards.”
But that’s just my butch opinion. [twirls carabiner, it slips out of my hand and knocks over the spare cereal boxes that are stacked conveniently but unaesthetically in the kitchen hallway]
posted by brook horse at 7:59 PM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
A hobby is something you actually enjoy. Some folks do enjoy decorating, but the study is also about a specific socio-economic class where some amount of hosting and decorating is, indeed, expected, and may be tied to one of the partner’s jobs.
posted by eviemath at 8:12 PM on April 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:12 PM on April 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I mean that’s my point. Things that are in every practical sense hobbies are expected of women and treated as necessary for various social reasons that have nothing to do with what human beings need in order to relate to each other or live well. I’m not saying there aren’t significant external factors that make it reasonable for people to act as if they’re necessary. But I am saying that ending the conversation with “men need to step up” and not adding “and we need to stop holding women to this standard” is just bowing to unreasonable patriarchal expectations.
posted by brook horse at 8:31 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brook horse at 8:31 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
some amount of hosting and decorating is, indeed, expected, and may be tied to one of the partner’s jobs.
My mom had this "job" in the 70s and 80s alongside my dad's work as a technical sales executive in oilfield services. I used to call it "American corporate geisha" (with the understanding that a geisha is a person who entertains clients with refined hospitality). I watched her do it in Texas and then, when we lived abroad, watched her develop an extensive additional routine because we were expected to entertain houseguests and my mom now had a maid of all work and a guy to keep the acreage around the house in tip-top shape. I can't imagine how she could have done all she did to support my dad's career if she'd also been working a paying job.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:47 PM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
My mom had this "job" in the 70s and 80s alongside my dad's work as a technical sales executive in oilfield services. I used to call it "American corporate geisha" (with the understanding that a geisha is a person who entertains clients with refined hospitality). I watched her do it in Texas and then, when we lived abroad, watched her develop an extensive additional routine because we were expected to entertain houseguests and my mom now had a maid of all work and a guy to keep the acreage around the house in tip-top shape. I can't imagine how she could have done all she did to support my dad's career if she'd also been working a paying job.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:47 PM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
some of the things described as extra cognitive labor taken on by women are things that are very much hobbies but treated as if they’re necessary. Party planning and decorating (as two things mentioned in the article and thread) are hobbies. Y
Whoa whoa whoa. This is directly related to emotional labor again. Making birthdays special (often for children) and keeping up with friends socially often falls on women completely, the responsibility for planning and keeping in touch with people, knowing a child's friends and parents, and also the social negativity of NOT doing this falls on women. I have no idea how you could call that a hobby when it is socially enforced as something a woman is supposed to do.
Social bonds are necessary. Do some people go overboard? Sometimes. I blame the patriarchy.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:02 AM on April 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
Whoa whoa whoa. This is directly related to emotional labor again. Making birthdays special (often for children) and keeping up with friends socially often falls on women completely, the responsibility for planning and keeping in touch with people, knowing a child's friends and parents, and also the social negativity of NOT doing this falls on women. I have no idea how you could call that a hobby when it is socially enforced as something a woman is supposed to do.
Social bonds are necessary. Do some people go overboard? Sometimes. I blame the patriarchy.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:02 AM on April 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
I mean, you don't see people saying it's ok not to do that one year old party...because people dont believe that. Unconscious and conscious gender roles and sexism.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:04 AM on April 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:04 AM on April 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
But I am saying that ending the conversation with “men need to step up” and not adding “and we need to stop holding women to this standard” is just bowing to unreasonable patriarchal expectations.
Yes. But women get it from all sides, so I'd lean heavier on men stepping up. Even to say...this is unnecessary.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:05 AM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes. But women get it from all sides, so I'd lean heavier on men stepping up. Even to say...this is unnecessary.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:05 AM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'm gonna call bullshit on that "planning and decorating and etc is hobbies" comment. I don't have kids, but I do know moms, and sorry, they are expected to perform good mom-ness by doing those things. Is it fair they have to? No. But moms already live in a shitty expectation bubble and often they can't just bypass doing those things because judgment. That sentiment is very very male-coded, my friend.
posted by Kitteh at 5:27 AM on April 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 5:27 AM on April 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
My mom had this "job" in the 70s and 80s alongside my dad's work as a technical sales executive in oilfield services. I used to call it "American corporate geisha" (with the understanding that a geisha is a person who entertains clients with refined hospitality). I watched her do it in Texas and then, when we lived abroad, watched her develop an extensive additional routine because we were expected to entertain houseguests and my mom now had a maid of all work and a guy to keep the acreage around the house in tip-top shape. I can't imagine how she could have done all she did to support my dad's career if she'd also been working a paying job.
I'm pretty sure that if my spouse gave up her current paid job and took on a housewife/job-support role like what you describe, that I would easily be able to more than make up the lost income. Not just by being able to work longer hours (no need to stop to cook dinner or discuss the shopping) and travel on the drop of a hat, but also by having a full-time person focused on the social aspects, from hosting guests to decorating to making sure we were dressed appropriately, that play into who gets the opportunities for advancement.
This is all abstract since we're happy the way things are, but I notice it every time I meet a couple where the focus is entirely on the primary wage earner and how much that directly pays off.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:56 AM on April 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that if my spouse gave up her current paid job and took on a housewife/job-support role like what you describe, that I would easily be able to more than make up the lost income. Not just by being able to work longer hours (no need to stop to cook dinner or discuss the shopping) and travel on the drop of a hat, but also by having a full-time person focused on the social aspects, from hosting guests to decorating to making sure we were dressed appropriately, that play into who gets the opportunities for advancement.
This is all abstract since we're happy the way things are, but I notice it every time I meet a couple where the focus is entirely on the primary wage earner and how much that directly pays off.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:56 AM on April 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't have kids, but I do know moms, and sorry, they are expected to perform good mom-ness by doing those things. Is it fair they have to? No. But moms already live in a shitty expectation bubble and often they can't just bypass doing those things because judgment.
Yes! Exactly! They are expected to do something that in any other context is a hobby. It is enforced on women to participate in things that aren’t necessary outside of social expectations, because it’s considered part of being a woman. I mentioned party planning explicitly because millions of humans today and throughout history have lots of great social bonds without participating in “party planning” as described in the article. Women do participate in a lot of other social cognitive labor that is a necessary part of maintaining social bonds and community, but party planning is one that is only considered necessary for all women because of social expectations. I’m saying that instead of just saying “do better at helping women meet societal expectations to avoid judgement” we need to ALSO be challenging that judgement.
It’s not a male-coded idea, it’s a butch lesbian idea. Same as saying that the expectations of femininity enforced on women via social judgement should be challenged. Like y’all, I absolutely get it. Makeup and fashion are also hobbies and also not optional for women if they want to avoid social judgement. As someone who chooses not to participate in those while presenting as a woman, I am very, VERY, VERY AWARE of the social judgement and impact on my career and the perception of my competence!
Which is why I’m saying that “let’s help women better live up to this standard” is not enough. We have to also challenge these ideas and uplift women who choose not to participate and suffer the social judgement, rather than just parroting “but women have to do this because it’s socially enforced.” Yeah, we all get that, we are challenging the idea that it should be, and acknowledging that there are women who choose to step away from those enforced roles and face the consequences. When all you say is “men need to do better” you’re silently reinforcing the idea that women should be participating all of this, they just need more help doing so.
I get if any individual woman is not able to step away from it because the social judgement is too great. Living as a butch absolutely involves not just judgement but often outright hostility that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. But everyone can benefit from hearing that this shouldn’t be an expected part of being a woman, that society is enforcing something on women that should only be done for fun, and that’s not okay.
posted by brook horse at 7:19 AM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes! Exactly! They are expected to do something that in any other context is a hobby. It is enforced on women to participate in things that aren’t necessary outside of social expectations, because it’s considered part of being a woman. I mentioned party planning explicitly because millions of humans today and throughout history have lots of great social bonds without participating in “party planning” as described in the article. Women do participate in a lot of other social cognitive labor that is a necessary part of maintaining social bonds and community, but party planning is one that is only considered necessary for all women because of social expectations. I’m saying that instead of just saying “do better at helping women meet societal expectations to avoid judgement” we need to ALSO be challenging that judgement.
It’s not a male-coded idea, it’s a butch lesbian idea. Same as saying that the expectations of femininity enforced on women via social judgement should be challenged. Like y’all, I absolutely get it. Makeup and fashion are also hobbies and also not optional for women if they want to avoid social judgement. As someone who chooses not to participate in those while presenting as a woman, I am very, VERY, VERY AWARE of the social judgement and impact on my career and the perception of my competence!
Which is why I’m saying that “let’s help women better live up to this standard” is not enough. We have to also challenge these ideas and uplift women who choose not to participate and suffer the social judgement, rather than just parroting “but women have to do this because it’s socially enforced.” Yeah, we all get that, we are challenging the idea that it should be, and acknowledging that there are women who choose to step away from those enforced roles and face the consequences. When all you say is “men need to do better” you’re silently reinforcing the idea that women should be participating all of this, they just need more help doing so.
I get if any individual woman is not able to step away from it because the social judgement is too great. Living as a butch absolutely involves not just judgement but often outright hostility that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. But everyone can benefit from hearing that this shouldn’t be an expected part of being a woman, that society is enforcing something on women that should only be done for fun, and that’s not okay.
posted by brook horse at 7:19 AM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Feel free to replace “hobby” with “activity that is not required for human well-being other than the individual may find it fun, except we’ve collectively decided some people need to do this thing even though they don’t find it fun and it isn’t necessary beyond the fact that society says it you should do it” throughout my posts if that helps clarify my point.
posted by brook horse at 7:23 AM on April 8, 2023
posted by brook horse at 7:23 AM on April 8, 2023
I guess yeah its like I don't think of party planning as a hobby at all.
And I'd argue that parties and gatherings ARE necessary for human well-being.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:28 AM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
And I'd argue that parties and gatherings ARE necessary for human well-being.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:28 AM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gatherings are required, not all gatherings are parties in the general cultural sense. Some people may need parties as part of their unique need! Other people don’t, but are expected to have them anyway, especially if they have kids. Despite the fact that your one year old almost CERTAINLY doesn’t require a party with a big group of people and balloons and cake as part of their social need, and would probably be happier having a couple people they love come over and hang out and play with them in the living room for a couple of hours. Which you could characterize as a party, and requires some kind of planning in terms of when people arrive, but is not “party planning” as is typically described.
posted by brook horse at 7:40 AM on April 8, 2023
posted by brook horse at 7:40 AM on April 8, 2023
Gatherings still often require a ton of emotional and physical labor is the point.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:41 AM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:41 AM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which falls under the general social upkeep that women do, yes. But throwing a party is a different thing, with different social expectations—ones that make you Google “ideas for a one year old’s birthday party” which will get you few results for how to communicate with relatives around timing and lots of results for themes and aesthetics and gimmicks—that are not necessary other than the social expectations around it.
posted by brook horse at 7:47 AM on April 8, 2023
posted by brook horse at 7:47 AM on April 8, 2023
The social expectations are what we are talking about, yes.
I think you and I talk past each other a lot so I'll just stop.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:50 AM on April 8, 2023
I think you and I talk past each other a lot so I'll just stop.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:50 AM on April 8, 2023
Well, I’m not sure how else I can say “yes, it’s socially expected and we should challenge those expectations instead of only saying women should have more help meeting those expectations” so I will also.
posted by brook horse at 7:53 AM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brook horse at 7:53 AM on April 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like it was turning into an argument when we said the exact same thing, that this is unreasonable for women to have the burden.🤷 Carry on!
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:10 AM on April 8, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:10 AM on April 8, 2023
> I'm pretty sure that if my spouse gave up her current paid job and took on a housewife/job-support role like what you describe, that I would easily be able to more than make up the lost income.
Yup. Mr Corpse had a successful career, and in part it's because he never missed a day of work to sit around and wait for the plumber to show up.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:51 PM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yup. Mr Corpse had a successful career, and in part it's because he never missed a day of work to sit around and wait for the plumber to show up.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:51 PM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not just by being able to work longer hours (no need to stop to cook dinner or discuss the shopping) and travel on the drop of a hat
When I was a kid my dad travelled internationally for sales work. This was pre-internet and on the time with metered international calling, so my dad would leave, be gone abroad for 2-3 weeks, and talk to my mom on the phone for 10 minutes every 2-3 days whenever the minutes were cheapest. For those times, my mom made all the decisions and did everything that was needed, from waiting for the plumber to replacing the appliance if it was busted. Plus she ran everything to do with me, which was a lot (I'm an only child and did a lot of activities; basically if you name it I probably tried it, except martial arts.).
I can't imagine my mom could have managed if she'd had an outside-the-home job of her own even before you put in the social labor of running my dad's entertaining life at home.
My dad's secretary did a lot of the outside entertaining work like making reservations at restaurants for business dinners with clients, which is also necessary social work but at least was paid as part of secretarial work in the 70s. When I was very little one of his secretaries babysat me a few times while my parents were at business dinners with clients. This work all still needs to be done if workers are expected to do business entertaining but I don't think the support system is there for it any more.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:58 PM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
When I was a kid my dad travelled internationally for sales work. This was pre-internet and on the time with metered international calling, so my dad would leave, be gone abroad for 2-3 weeks, and talk to my mom on the phone for 10 minutes every 2-3 days whenever the minutes were cheapest. For those times, my mom made all the decisions and did everything that was needed, from waiting for the plumber to replacing the appliance if it was busted. Plus she ran everything to do with me, which was a lot (I'm an only child and did a lot of activities; basically if you name it I probably tried it, except martial arts.).
I can't imagine my mom could have managed if she'd had an outside-the-home job of her own even before you put in the social labor of running my dad's entertaining life at home.
My dad's secretary did a lot of the outside entertaining work like making reservations at restaurants for business dinners with clients, which is also necessary social work but at least was paid as part of secretarial work in the 70s. When I was very little one of his secretaries babysat me a few times while my parents were at business dinners with clients. This work all still needs to be done if workers are expected to do business entertaining but I don't think the support system is there for it any more.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:58 PM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
But let's just roll that back.... Because part of the "bargain" in having an at-home social secretary and maid that you can also f*ck is that you need to be paid enough to keep her (kids and wives are more mouths to feed!) and that you're not allowed to beat and abuse them. Yes, that's even true if you were beat and abused as a kid or you are being beat and abused at your work. Though, plenty of folks do feel it's okay to cuff the wife a bit here and there, and the kids–for sure–it's good for their character.
Since the beginning of time, I imagine, you'd have the breadwinner not bringing home any bread at all. (See also: the temperance movement.) And so women realized they needed something of their own. They need something of their own so that they and their children would not starve. Also, it's boring to just be a personal servant to one man. Sadly, we were also born with inquisitive minds, drives to succeed, interests to explore and places to see.
One of the ways, though, that women ensure their survival for themselves and their children is by creating social bonds. I know that men created churches to try to keep their women in line but it's woman that made those places places of community and care and a safety net for the village. It's women who bake the casseroles, make sure there's a safe place for the children to gather and play, who ensure that their family is both reliable and nurturing so that they can get the help that they need if they need it.
It's comforting to think we can just live in a box, go to work, never have anyone into our homes, never celebrate a thing, never wrap a gift for a child, never look for the perfect goddamn greeting card ever again and that's just the way it can and should be - no need for frippery or decoration or hobbies! But, damn, what even is the point then?
posted by amanda at 1:01 PM on April 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Since the beginning of time, I imagine, you'd have the breadwinner not bringing home any bread at all. (See also: the temperance movement.) And so women realized they needed something of their own. They need something of their own so that they and their children would not starve. Also, it's boring to just be a personal servant to one man. Sadly, we were also born with inquisitive minds, drives to succeed, interests to explore and places to see.
One of the ways, though, that women ensure their survival for themselves and their children is by creating social bonds. I know that men created churches to try to keep their women in line but it's woman that made those places places of community and care and a safety net for the village. It's women who bake the casseroles, make sure there's a safe place for the children to gather and play, who ensure that their family is both reliable and nurturing so that they can get the help that they need if they need it.
It's comforting to think we can just live in a box, go to work, never have anyone into our homes, never celebrate a thing, never wrap a gift for a child, never look for the perfect goddamn greeting card ever again and that's just the way it can and should be - no need for frippery or decoration or hobbies! But, damn, what even is the point then?
posted by amanda at 1:01 PM on April 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's comforting to think we can just live in a box, go to work, never have anyone into our homes, never celebrate a thing, never wrap a gift for a child, never look for the perfect goddamn greeting card ever again and that's just the way it can and should be - no need for frippery or decoration or hobbies! But, damn, what even is the point then?
Agreed! What is life if you don't have a good time living it? But what is the point of doing all that if it makes you stressed and unhappy? I think everyone is already in agreement that both partners should be fully involved or at the very least have an agreement about household labor for the basic necessities. But, once the basics of life have been taken care of, why stress about the extras if they cause you stress?
There seem to be two solutions discussed here to help with that stress: 1) get men to step up and 2) stop asking so much of women.
What always gets me when we discuss this on Metafilter is the pushback on the 2nd one. The two solutions are not mutually exclusive. We can do both! The first was step one essentially, getting men to recognize and step up and is a work in progress improving with each generation.
The 2nd one is the one that everyone can do personally themself now. Societal expectations are self-reinforcing. Honestly, no a 1-year-old does not need a huge party with cake and balloons and tons of gifts like an older child would really enjoy. Does the house need to have "a look" or is it presentable as long as its clean? Does that person really need the perfect greeting card or one at all? The more we both women and society buy into this extra stuff, the more we feel its required. You see it an all the "requirements" for women: wear makeup, dress in a certain way, be nice and sweet, etc. The more we enforce this in ourselves and others, the longer we are going to keep having these conversations.
If you love throwing parties, then throw parties. Don't do it because someone will judge you if you don't. If you love decorating, then decorate. If you don't, then don't. If someone says shit about your house, then they're the dick. If you like sending cards, then do it. If an adult would get mad about not getting a card, they need to grow up. Yes, keeping social relationships is important, but we shouldn't feel obliged to do so much that it causes such stress. We have to stop caring about other people judgements, which is really hard, but it is possible.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:32 AM on April 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Agreed! What is life if you don't have a good time living it? But what is the point of doing all that if it makes you stressed and unhappy? I think everyone is already in agreement that both partners should be fully involved or at the very least have an agreement about household labor for the basic necessities. But, once the basics of life have been taken care of, why stress about the extras if they cause you stress?
There seem to be two solutions discussed here to help with that stress: 1) get men to step up and 2) stop asking so much of women.
What always gets me when we discuss this on Metafilter is the pushback on the 2nd one. The two solutions are not mutually exclusive. We can do both! The first was step one essentially, getting men to recognize and step up and is a work in progress improving with each generation.
The 2nd one is the one that everyone can do personally themself now. Societal expectations are self-reinforcing. Honestly, no a 1-year-old does not need a huge party with cake and balloons and tons of gifts like an older child would really enjoy. Does the house need to have "a look" or is it presentable as long as its clean? Does that person really need the perfect greeting card or one at all? The more we both women and society buy into this extra stuff, the more we feel its required. You see it an all the "requirements" for women: wear makeup, dress in a certain way, be nice and sweet, etc. The more we enforce this in ourselves and others, the longer we are going to keep having these conversations.
If you love throwing parties, then throw parties. Don't do it because someone will judge you if you don't. If you love decorating, then decorate. If you don't, then don't. If someone says shit about your house, then they're the dick. If you like sending cards, then do it. If an adult would get mad about not getting a card, they need to grow up. Yes, keeping social relationships is important, but we shouldn't feel obliged to do so much that it causes such stress. We have to stop caring about other people judgements, which is really hard, but it is possible.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:32 AM on April 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thanks LizBoBiz for outlining that so well.
As an example, I used to stress so much about good, thoughtful gifts and careful coordinated wrapping for every Designated Gift-Giving Day. The first thing I realized was that I was stressing about finding (or, more commonly, making) the “right” gift for family members I actively disliked, who didn’t appreciate the specific thought behind the gifts, and who routinely gifted me such thoughtful gifts as used coloring books and used watercolors or a fancy nativity scene (I’m not Christian). So that was the first “huh, wait a minute” moment for me. Then I realized that I was also doing this for someone that I liked but who routinely failed to get me anything for the holidays. And that the only reason I resented her for that was because I was giving her something. So I stopped doing it and I no longer resent her, wild! And then finally I realized that, with one or two exceptions, the positive memories people had of me had nothing to do with gifts I’ve given them and everything to do with time spent together. In fact, the only person who routinely mentioned how good my gifts were did it in a way that was to lament how impossible it was to live up to. So whenever I got or made her the perfect gift, it made HER feel bad for not being able to do the same. Where’s the joy in that?
When I give gifts now it’s based on because I saw or thought about something that I think they would really like, and I focus on spending time with people I love in generally the same way I do the rest of the year—a casual get-together that requires minimal planning or preparation, because all that extra stuff actually just made me, my partner, my family, and my friends miserable? We had a big heart to heart last year because my partner had come to absolutely hate Christmas because of all the pressure and stress that no one seemed to get any enjoyment out of but just did because it was expected. And it turned out everyone else basically felt the same way. So Christmas was on whatever day happened to work, with family grabbing takeout before coming to our place, we exchanged whatever gifts we had happened to get around to buying, and picked a movie to watch while we were there. As the host I hung up a few coats and occasionally checked if people needed water, but otherwise there was zero for me to do or plan because no one in my family values the kind of celebration or hosting that requires all this cognitive labor. I actually hung out in the bedroom for most of the movie because It’s A Wonderful Life gives me weird feelings. No one minded and we got lots of socialization in around that.
Are there people who enjoy that kind of celebration and hosting? Absolutely, and they are very welcome to do that thing they enjoy. But if you don’t enjoy it, you shouldn’t be obligated to. I know that’s easier said than done—I have the luxury of being able to eschew social judgements because I’m a disabled transmasc butch lesbian and so I’ve already been cast out. I’m not actually capable of making friends or having relationships with the kind of people that would judge me for not throwing a party, because they all rejected me a decade ago when I came out. I have an aunt who absolutely holds these expectations and she stopped talking to me when I turned 18 and moved in with my partner which she called a rejection of God, so I am thus spared from any of her judgements about my social life. Everyone else who’s still in my life requires a certain level of non-judgementalness because if they didn’t bail back when I was just calling myself a lesbian they definitely would have once I started getting butch about it, which is basically the way to speedrun being rejected by everyone who’s even remotely rigid about The Norms. So it turns out everything I was doing was because I’d internalized social judgement that wasn’t even present in my social community. Many people don’t have that privilege (if we want to call it that lol) because their friends and family WOULD bail if they don’t meet these standards. I totally get that and wouldn’t call on any woman individually to make that choice. But I think we need to be louder about saying women shouldn’t have to wear makeup, be fashionable, decorate their houses, buy greeting cards, etc. unless they want to.
posted by brook horse at 11:08 AM on April 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
As an example, I used to stress so much about good, thoughtful gifts and careful coordinated wrapping for every Designated Gift-Giving Day. The first thing I realized was that I was stressing about finding (or, more commonly, making) the “right” gift for family members I actively disliked, who didn’t appreciate the specific thought behind the gifts, and who routinely gifted me such thoughtful gifts as used coloring books and used watercolors or a fancy nativity scene (I’m not Christian). So that was the first “huh, wait a minute” moment for me. Then I realized that I was also doing this for someone that I liked but who routinely failed to get me anything for the holidays. And that the only reason I resented her for that was because I was giving her something. So I stopped doing it and I no longer resent her, wild! And then finally I realized that, with one or two exceptions, the positive memories people had of me had nothing to do with gifts I’ve given them and everything to do with time spent together. In fact, the only person who routinely mentioned how good my gifts were did it in a way that was to lament how impossible it was to live up to. So whenever I got or made her the perfect gift, it made HER feel bad for not being able to do the same. Where’s the joy in that?
When I give gifts now it’s based on because I saw or thought about something that I think they would really like, and I focus on spending time with people I love in generally the same way I do the rest of the year—a casual get-together that requires minimal planning or preparation, because all that extra stuff actually just made me, my partner, my family, and my friends miserable? We had a big heart to heart last year because my partner had come to absolutely hate Christmas because of all the pressure and stress that no one seemed to get any enjoyment out of but just did because it was expected. And it turned out everyone else basically felt the same way. So Christmas was on whatever day happened to work, with family grabbing takeout before coming to our place, we exchanged whatever gifts we had happened to get around to buying, and picked a movie to watch while we were there. As the host I hung up a few coats and occasionally checked if people needed water, but otherwise there was zero for me to do or plan because no one in my family values the kind of celebration or hosting that requires all this cognitive labor. I actually hung out in the bedroom for most of the movie because It’s A Wonderful Life gives me weird feelings. No one minded and we got lots of socialization in around that.
Are there people who enjoy that kind of celebration and hosting? Absolutely, and they are very welcome to do that thing they enjoy. But if you don’t enjoy it, you shouldn’t be obligated to. I know that’s easier said than done—I have the luxury of being able to eschew social judgements because I’m a disabled transmasc butch lesbian and so I’ve already been cast out. I’m not actually capable of making friends or having relationships with the kind of people that would judge me for not throwing a party, because they all rejected me a decade ago when I came out. I have an aunt who absolutely holds these expectations and she stopped talking to me when I turned 18 and moved in with my partner which she called a rejection of God, so I am thus spared from any of her judgements about my social life. Everyone else who’s still in my life requires a certain level of non-judgementalness because if they didn’t bail back when I was just calling myself a lesbian they definitely would have once I started getting butch about it, which is basically the way to speedrun being rejected by everyone who’s even remotely rigid about The Norms. So it turns out everything I was doing was because I’d internalized social judgement that wasn’t even present in my social community. Many people don’t have that privilege (if we want to call it that lol) because their friends and family WOULD bail if they don’t meet these standards. I totally get that and wouldn’t call on any woman individually to make that choice. But I think we need to be louder about saying women shouldn’t have to wear makeup, be fashionable, decorate their houses, buy greeting cards, etc. unless they want to.
posted by brook horse at 11:08 AM on April 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, on frippery: my partner and I love buying these sorts of things on Etsy, which is absolutely pure frip. You can like pretty or ornamental things without participating in the obligation To Decorate in a way that causes you stress. We have a couple things up on our walls that have personal meaning to us, but otherwise find little value in putting effort into that. None of our furniture matches and it’s arranged in very ungainly but functional ways (the dining table, a coffee table, and a sofa are all squished in a direct line with no space between any of them across one wall because it’s most useful to us even if it doesn’t Look Nice). And it’s fine and we don’t focus on making our place look anything but clean. Because it’s not a value of ours and it shouldn’t be pushed on us anyone who doesn’t want to do that.
posted by brook horse at 11:31 AM on April 11, 2023
posted by brook horse at 11:31 AM on April 11, 2023
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Would be pretty interesting to see a larger study including a diverse population in terms of ethnicity and class.
It's a funny (not funny) detail that the dudes are 'helping' by giving their opinion, without doing the work. I know in my own (queer) relationship I fall into that cognitive trap of relying on my partner to figure stuff out and then still having something to say about her choice. We do talk about this stuff explicitly which helps us reduce this phenomenon
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posted by latkes at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2023 [13 favorites]