The "RV family" lifestyle sounds like a nightmare
April 7, 2023 8:00 AM Subscribe
Tiffany Ferguson dissects a trend of lifestyle vlogging about traveling around the country in an RV with your family [SL Youtube]. Content warnings for eating disorder mentions. Semi-previously on Metafilter.
I always love Tiffanyferg videos. There's several related stories posted on Mefi:
Previously: How an endless voyage round the world stole my childhood.
Previously: "It costs less to house people than to police the unhoused."
And #vanlife previously on Mefi.
Tiffanyferg mentions her other related videos: "Family Vloggers are Ridiculous" and The Dark Side of Family Vlogging
Video essays like this are important because they challenge the glossy, aspirational image that grifters project. And in this case, it also has the underlying notion of "Late-capitalism, schmapitalism. Living in an RV is actually great! No one needs public schools! This is the new normal!"
And that's not even going into the problematic aspects of home-schooling, which can either be great and liberating, or just a way to indoctrinate your child and have them not learn about evolution or slavery.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:26 AM on April 7, 2023 [34 favorites]
Previously: How an endless voyage round the world stole my childhood.
Previously: "It costs less to house people than to police the unhoused."
And #vanlife previously on Mefi.
Tiffanyferg mentions her other related videos: "Family Vloggers are Ridiculous" and The Dark Side of Family Vlogging
Video essays like this are important because they challenge the glossy, aspirational image that grifters project. And in this case, it also has the underlying notion of "Late-capitalism, schmapitalism. Living in an RV is actually great! No one needs public schools! This is the new normal!"
And that's not even going into the problematic aspects of home-schooling, which can either be great and liberating, or just a way to indoctrinate your child and have them not learn about evolution or slavery.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:26 AM on April 7, 2023 [34 favorites]
Stuff like that makes me really grateful for my normie parents and their suburban little boxes on a hillside lifestyle. Not the worst way to spend a childhood and adolescence, it turns out! My concern wouldn't have been so much education per se - I'm a fairly self-directed student who can get pretty far with a textbook (although I don't see myself acquiring much in terms of social skills in that scenario) - but very much the lack of space and privacy and the lack of opportunty to form longterm, solid relationships outside of the nuclear family. I'm very, very slow to warm up to people and need to stay in the same place for a long time to form any deeper bonds, so that sort of life would have left me extremly isolated.
I do think that adventures are actually important for young people. But what I wanted from my parents was stability. I imagine there's a non-neglible difference between an adventure you seek out yourself and one your parents practically sign you up for.
posted by sohalt at 9:29 AM on April 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
I do think that adventures are actually important for young people. But what I wanted from my parents was stability. I imagine there's a non-neglible difference between an adventure you seek out yourself and one your parents practically sign you up for.
posted by sohalt at 9:29 AM on April 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
I was just going to link to the endless voyage around the world article!
I think this sort of thing comes down to selfishness. If following a "trend" of vlogging around while traveling in an RV comes before raising your children and doing everything you can to support them, then maybe you shouldn't be vlogging and travelling in an RV?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:30 AM on April 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think this sort of thing comes down to selfishness. If following a "trend" of vlogging around while traveling in an RV comes before raising your children and doing everything you can to support them, then maybe you shouldn't be vlogging and travelling in an RV?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:30 AM on April 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I had the "boring suburban family" upbringing with my own bedroom most of the time, but my family also spent every family vacation loading into our minivan or station wagon towing a pop-up trailer. Seems like the best of both worlds! I definitely feel pretty lucky.
posted by misskaz at 9:34 AM on April 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 9:34 AM on April 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
Stuff like that makes me really grateful for my normie parents and their suburban little boxes on a hillside lifestyle. Not the worst way to spend a childhood and adolescence, it turns out!
So like, the thing that makes me hesitant to condemn or even snark at nontraditional parenting styles/nontraditional lifestyles with children is that people do end up thinking this, and then after enough people get to thinking it, it becomes somehow deviant to grow up any other way, and then it becomes deviant to raise a kid without being white and middle class. Shit, when I was a kid the other parents at my schools thought my parents were deviant monsters for raising us in an apartment. It has been gratifying with the "return to cities" over the past 20 years to see that it's no longer quite so stigmatized.
The thing to critique is irresponsible parents who don't understand what they've signed up for when they brought people into the world. Irresponsible parents will fuck up their kids in any environment. I get that there should be extra caution around parenting choices that end up isolating the family from other people and institutions with their reality-checking and all. I do. But do we really think that kid who grew up on the boat was gonna have a totally normal childhood with those bananapants parents of hers, just because it happened in a cul de sac?
I dunno. If parents are pulling their kids up by the roots and demolishing their community structures because they saw a thing on instagram, the problem is that those parents suck, not that you can't parent a kid well in a nontraditional context.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:39 AM on April 7, 2023 [45 favorites]
So like, the thing that makes me hesitant to condemn or even snark at nontraditional parenting styles/nontraditional lifestyles with children is that people do end up thinking this, and then after enough people get to thinking it, it becomes somehow deviant to grow up any other way, and then it becomes deviant to raise a kid without being white and middle class. Shit, when I was a kid the other parents at my schools thought my parents were deviant monsters for raising us in an apartment. It has been gratifying with the "return to cities" over the past 20 years to see that it's no longer quite so stigmatized.
The thing to critique is irresponsible parents who don't understand what they've signed up for when they brought people into the world. Irresponsible parents will fuck up their kids in any environment. I get that there should be extra caution around parenting choices that end up isolating the family from other people and institutions with their reality-checking and all. I do. But do we really think that kid who grew up on the boat was gonna have a totally normal childhood with those bananapants parents of hers, just because it happened in a cul de sac?
I dunno. If parents are pulling their kids up by the roots and demolishing their community structures because they saw a thing on instagram, the problem is that those parents suck, not that you can't parent a kid well in a nontraditional context.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:39 AM on April 7, 2023 [45 favorites]
Wow. Is her influencer lane just shitting on other people's lanes? That was painful to watch even at 2x speed.
Having done the sailing round the world, RV life, and international backpacking lifestyles with our kids, I can say that it's fantastic for our family and there are some amazing and inspiring families out there. We are living a sedentary life for now (with the kids in school and house in the burbs) but I hope that our family can be back on the road soon. We are friends with some content creators and they are great people who are doing a great job raising their kids. I know many adults who were raised either on the road or on the water and they are all great people.
I found that YT pretty depressing. I want to forget her as quickly as possible.
posted by karst at 9:42 AM on April 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
Having done the sailing round the world, RV life, and international backpacking lifestyles with our kids, I can say that it's fantastic for our family and there are some amazing and inspiring families out there. We are living a sedentary life for now (with the kids in school and house in the burbs) but I hope that our family can be back on the road soon. We are friends with some content creators and they are great people who are doing a great job raising their kids. I know many adults who were raised either on the road or on the water and they are all great people.
I found that YT pretty depressing. I want to forget her as quickly as possible.
posted by karst at 9:42 AM on April 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
I would occasionally watch this one single guy doing vanlife stuff, and then this diss account showed up in my recommendations. He wasn't even that popular, but someone must have thought he was a dumbass. (the vanlifer became a men's rights activist, so i guess they were right)
posted by credulous at 9:48 AM on April 7, 2023
posted by credulous at 9:48 AM on April 7, 2023
The thing to critique is irresponsible parents who don't understand what they've signed up for when they brought people into the world.
It takes a village to raise a child. But the society I live in isn't really set up that way. This can be fixed.
posted by aniola at 9:53 AM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
It takes a village to raise a child. But the society I live in isn't really set up that way. This can be fixed.
posted by aniola at 9:53 AM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
School was my safe place. My only safe place. Yes, I had a banana-pants upbringing on a boring suburban street but FFS, if I hadn't had school and the normality that brought to me...seeing adults who functioned and were nice to me and who cared about me....I probably wouldn't be here today. And the experiences I had with my friends' families who weren't dysfunctional allowed me to see that there were alternatives and that what was happening in my home was abusive. I wouldn't have had that if my parents sequestered me.
She's not condemning the families that aren't dysfunctional, the ones who really do get along and love being together. She's worrying about the families that are, because they are out there and they are living that RVlife and they are utterly damaging their kids. If those families were participating in "regular" society, maybe someone would intervene. Maybe the kids would see alternatives. But at least they'd have that chance.
posted by cooker girl at 9:55 AM on April 7, 2023 [25 favorites]
She's not condemning the families that aren't dysfunctional, the ones who really do get along and love being together. She's worrying about the families that are, because they are out there and they are living that RVlife and they are utterly damaging their kids. If those families were participating in "regular" society, maybe someone would intervene. Maybe the kids would see alternatives. But at least they'd have that chance.
posted by cooker girl at 9:55 AM on April 7, 2023 [25 favorites]
This is gonna sound like I'm making a joke, but I think one of the better depictions of the "Van life" lifestyle would probably be the film Nomadland.
Hear me out:
I think the thing that sours skeptics on the pro Tiny-House videos or the pro Vanlife videos is that many of them are too polished and Pollyanna. They only present the positives; the carefully-curated beauty shots of the scenery, the charming conversations with people in the towns you visit, the awestruck moment when a deer wanders into your campsite, the whimsical attempts to DIY a stew out of a couple cans of vegetables and a couple hot dogs. Any problem that comes up gets overcome through good luck and some gumption. It's an adventure!!! Yay!!!
Those videos don't get into some of the realities that Nomadland does. The vanlifers in that film have to deal with things like leaky roofs making everything they own wet. Or having to shit in a bucket because of gastric upset brought on by that DIY stew. Or getting shaken awake by a cop at 3 am because you're not allowed to park where you're parked. Or getting trapped in the middle of nowhere because your van broke down and it's so old that the only mechanic has to special-order the part off ebay and it's wiped out all your savings, and you have to call your sister and beg for a loan. Or having a non-functioning shoulder because when you broke it two years ago, you didn't have any insurance to afford the right physical therapy.
That said: Nomadland ALSO shows you some of those same moments of beauty and awe. About a half hour after Frances McDormand's character deals with her van breaking down, she is driving her newly-fixed van through a forest in North Dakota and slowing to an awestruck stop to watch a whole herd of caribou stroll across the road in front of her. An hour after the scene when her friend with the ruined shoulder heads off to Canada, she gets a text from that friend, with a video attached - footage filmed from a kayak where she's filming a flock of baby puffins jumping into the lake on their first flights.
There are moments of awe and beauty and grace and camaraderie with the RV lifestyle, but there are also moments of boredom and struggle and discomfort and hardship. And to win over the skeptics, you need to be honest about both sides.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:06 AM on April 7, 2023 [32 favorites]
Hear me out:
I think the thing that sours skeptics on the pro Tiny-House videos or the pro Vanlife videos is that many of them are too polished and Pollyanna. They only present the positives; the carefully-curated beauty shots of the scenery, the charming conversations with people in the towns you visit, the awestruck moment when a deer wanders into your campsite, the whimsical attempts to DIY a stew out of a couple cans of vegetables and a couple hot dogs. Any problem that comes up gets overcome through good luck and some gumption. It's an adventure!!! Yay!!!
Those videos don't get into some of the realities that Nomadland does. The vanlifers in that film have to deal with things like leaky roofs making everything they own wet. Or having to shit in a bucket because of gastric upset brought on by that DIY stew. Or getting shaken awake by a cop at 3 am because you're not allowed to park where you're parked. Or getting trapped in the middle of nowhere because your van broke down and it's so old that the only mechanic has to special-order the part off ebay and it's wiped out all your savings, and you have to call your sister and beg for a loan. Or having a non-functioning shoulder because when you broke it two years ago, you didn't have any insurance to afford the right physical therapy.
That said: Nomadland ALSO shows you some of those same moments of beauty and awe. About a half hour after Frances McDormand's character deals with her van breaking down, she is driving her newly-fixed van through a forest in North Dakota and slowing to an awestruck stop to watch a whole herd of caribou stroll across the road in front of her. An hour after the scene when her friend with the ruined shoulder heads off to Canada, she gets a text from that friend, with a video attached - footage filmed from a kayak where she's filming a flock of baby puffins jumping into the lake on their first flights.
There are moments of awe and beauty and grace and camaraderie with the RV lifestyle, but there are also moments of boredom and struggle and discomfort and hardship. And to win over the skeptics, you need to be honest about both sides.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:06 AM on April 7, 2023 [32 favorites]
Correspondence school takes discipline. Homeschooling takes discipline.
I am incredibly suspicious of anyone who thinks they can educate their kids while living this kind of made-for-youtube life. Education is hard work. It takes time, resources, and discipline. And it's very easy to fall into a closed feedback loop where you begin honestly believing that you're making it work--because of course you are!
That's what happened when my parents tried to homeschool me in junior high. They were both college educated and thought they could handle it. They grabbed every textbook they could find at goodwill, downloaded every sample curriculum they could find. They had me write a journal. We went on local road trips to see interesting things. They tried to incorporate some sort of everyday example into what I was learning. I built all sorts of STEM kits out in the garage. It was fun! And despite all of our best efforts, I learned next to nothing!
I forget exactly what broke us from this fever dream, but after a year my parents decided that they weren't educators. We tried another year of it--this time using correspondence courses from a midwestern university, but even that wasn't enough and the third year my homeschooling transformed into taking classes at the local community college.
Teaching is hard work. There's a reason why let the professionals do it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:07 AM on April 7, 2023 [40 favorites]
I am incredibly suspicious of anyone who thinks they can educate their kids while living this kind of made-for-youtube life. Education is hard work. It takes time, resources, and discipline. And it's very easy to fall into a closed feedback loop where you begin honestly believing that you're making it work--because of course you are!
That's what happened when my parents tried to homeschool me in junior high. They were both college educated and thought they could handle it. They grabbed every textbook they could find at goodwill, downloaded every sample curriculum they could find. They had me write a journal. We went on local road trips to see interesting things. They tried to incorporate some sort of everyday example into what I was learning. I built all sorts of STEM kits out in the garage. It was fun! And despite all of our best efforts, I learned next to nothing!
I forget exactly what broke us from this fever dream, but after a year my parents decided that they weren't educators. We tried another year of it--this time using correspondence courses from a midwestern university, but even that wasn't enough and the third year my homeschooling transformed into taking classes at the local community college.
Teaching is hard work. There's a reason why let the professionals do it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:07 AM on April 7, 2023 [40 favorites]
I dunno. If parents are pulling their kids up by the roots and demolishing their community structures because they saw a thing on instagram, the problem is that those parents suck, not that you can't parent a kid well in a nontraditional context.
Point taken.
posted by sohalt at 10:07 AM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Point taken.
posted by sohalt at 10:07 AM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Correspondence school takes discipline.
I mean, it really, really depends on the child. I did correspondence school while living on a boat. My mom planned on being my teacher, and that lasted precisely one day before I said "you know what, I'll just do this myself." And I did. I would do 2-3 days of lessons in a single day so that I would have 1-2 days of freedom to explore whatever environment we were in. I administered tests to myself without cheating, even! And I definitely learned a lot. We used the Calvert School. We had to mail in my homework and tests, and it counted for 5th grade at my home school district.
If I were a different person, it may have gone horribly awry.
I can understand how personal experience heavily influences opinions on this matter.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:25 AM on April 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I mean, it really, really depends on the child. I did correspondence school while living on a boat. My mom planned on being my teacher, and that lasted precisely one day before I said "you know what, I'll just do this myself." And I did. I would do 2-3 days of lessons in a single day so that I would have 1-2 days of freedom to explore whatever environment we were in. I administered tests to myself without cheating, even! And I definitely learned a lot. We used the Calvert School. We had to mail in my homework and tests, and it counted for 5th grade at my home school district.
If I were a different person, it may have gone horribly awry.
I can understand how personal experience heavily influences opinions on this matter.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:25 AM on April 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
About to watch the video now, but being a "content creator" when the content is your actual life seems like a bad idea.
posted by meowzilla at 10:55 AM on April 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 10:55 AM on April 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
I watch a handful of full-time-travel families, but there is definitely a line for me that is the same line with non-traveling parentbloggers (for example, as discussed by tiktoker ThroughandLou) where the children are The Content and I have to nope at that point.
You can tell when the kids are given a choice about being on camera, when parents aren't making any really personal details about them a significant part of the content, and when they're editing for enhanced or reduced kid screentime. (Something none of them basically talk about, though, are the comments that have to be deleted and the steps that have to be taken to stop some of humanity's finest from trying to develop personal relationships with the kids, even if they're nothing but a voice offscreen or wandering around occasionally on video.)
Like all things, it's about the execution and boundaries. But there are some people out there using their kids in ways that are not okay and I'm down for thoughtful criticism about it. I'm not sure this video is it - it's a little tedious to watch and I really dislike shittalk for the sake of content which I honestly can't tell if this channel is that or is doing balanced social commentary. This is all complicated by the fact that of course the most visible culprits are pretty offputting.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:04 AM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can tell when the kids are given a choice about being on camera, when parents aren't making any really personal details about them a significant part of the content, and when they're editing for enhanced or reduced kid screentime. (Something none of them basically talk about, though, are the comments that have to be deleted and the steps that have to be taken to stop some of humanity's finest from trying to develop personal relationships with the kids, even if they're nothing but a voice offscreen or wandering around occasionally on video.)
Like all things, it's about the execution and boundaries. But there are some people out there using their kids in ways that are not okay and I'm down for thoughtful criticism about it. I'm not sure this video is it - it's a little tedious to watch and I really dislike shittalk for the sake of content which I honestly can't tell if this channel is that or is doing balanced social commentary. This is all complicated by the fact that of course the most visible culprits are pretty offputting.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:04 AM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
And what's up with the "most of these people have experienced trauma" business?
It's a legal requirement to include that in all media produced since 2010.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:04 AM on April 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's a legal requirement to include that in all media produced since 2010.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:04 AM on April 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Wow. Is her influencer lane just shitting on other people's lanes? That was painful to watch even at 2x speed.
Yeah, I could not finish that. There is a way to do a video essay analyzing trends, but you need to do research beyond primary sources and/or have something to actually say. This felt 95% content free. If someone told me it was generated video, I would believe it.
posted by dame at 11:10 AM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I could not finish that. There is a way to do a video essay analyzing trends, but you need to do research beyond primary sources and/or have something to actually say. This felt 95% content free. If someone told me it was generated video, I would believe it.
posted by dame at 11:10 AM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
If living in a Tiny House (formerly known as "shacks") were so awesome, then the Tiny House Influencers wouldn't predictably 1) gain a following 2) Profit 3) cheerfully move into a full-sized house
posted by mecran01 at 11:42 AM on April 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mecran01 at 11:42 AM on April 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Full disclosure: I didn't watch the whole video. However, my issue with #vanlife - and, more disclosure, I did the lite somewhat privileged version myself in 2017/2018 - is that, like tiny homes, it's become aspirational and it's really, really not. Living in a van or an RV or a tiny home is hard. It's not all fun adventure times. It's really tough and demanding in ways that living in a regular house or apartment just isn't, and the content creators never cover that reality. It's also expensive. Is it more expensive than living in a house? I would say probably it is at least the same and I bet the house is actually cheaper in many ways.
Just for one example, it cost me $19,000 to get on the road. That was the cost of a tiny used camper and a big clunky used truck. Five years later, that tiny camper, the one that took me around the whole country twice, now needs some serious work. There's nobody in a 50 mile radius who can or will do that work and even if there was, I can't afford to sink another thousand bucks or more into a camper that's worth maybe $3K on a good day. Campers, particularly the low - middle range ones, aren't worth more money as they age. Sure, the repair costs could be somewhat - somewhat - ameliorated if I was better at DIY, but I'm not. Those are things you have to think about all the time when you're on the road. Is the water pump going to go again? What about the propane fridge? Those are expensive to replace and they have a lifespan.
And then there are the storage issues and the shopping issues. If you need to save money, you buy in bulk and cook from scratch, right? Wrong, if you live in a school bus. You have nowhere to store that stuff. And, you don't know where the cheapest stores are - you have to rediscover that information at every single stop. That would be the stop you're spending at the laundromat, which is always so fun. The content creators always seem to skip that particular stop but if you don't have storage for a ton of clothes, you're going to be spending some significant time there.
And now for doomy future projections - I get uneasy when stuff like bottled water and #vanlife are positioned as fun! Easy! Choices! instead of, there is no drinkable tap water and you can't afford an apartment. It makes me want to be very aware and watch to see what is coming next. So far I have not been wrong when my hypervigilance trigger gets tripped and believe me, it's been going hard for some time now. Today, this is a Fun! Exciting! Adventurous! Glamourous! Choice! and tomorrow? We all live in a van down by the river and wait on the people in the domed enclaves.
posted by mygothlaundry at 11:45 AM on April 7, 2023 [29 favorites]
Just for one example, it cost me $19,000 to get on the road. That was the cost of a tiny used camper and a big clunky used truck. Five years later, that tiny camper, the one that took me around the whole country twice, now needs some serious work. There's nobody in a 50 mile radius who can or will do that work and even if there was, I can't afford to sink another thousand bucks or more into a camper that's worth maybe $3K on a good day. Campers, particularly the low - middle range ones, aren't worth more money as they age. Sure, the repair costs could be somewhat - somewhat - ameliorated if I was better at DIY, but I'm not. Those are things you have to think about all the time when you're on the road. Is the water pump going to go again? What about the propane fridge? Those are expensive to replace and they have a lifespan.
And then there are the storage issues and the shopping issues. If you need to save money, you buy in bulk and cook from scratch, right? Wrong, if you live in a school bus. You have nowhere to store that stuff. And, you don't know where the cheapest stores are - you have to rediscover that information at every single stop. That would be the stop you're spending at the laundromat, which is always so fun. The content creators always seem to skip that particular stop but if you don't have storage for a ton of clothes, you're going to be spending some significant time there.
And now for doomy future projections - I get uneasy when stuff like bottled water and #vanlife are positioned as fun! Easy! Choices! instead of, there is no drinkable tap water and you can't afford an apartment. It makes me want to be very aware and watch to see what is coming next. So far I have not been wrong when my hypervigilance trigger gets tripped and believe me, it's been going hard for some time now. Today, this is a Fun! Exciting! Adventurous! Glamourous! Choice! and tomorrow? We all live in a van down by the river and wait on the people in the domed enclaves.
posted by mygothlaundry at 11:45 AM on April 7, 2023 [29 favorites]
When I was a kid we took several month long road trips to see the country. It was great for July and I had seen 40 something US states and the bottom edge of Canada by the time I was 15. I wouldn't want that at the expense of the relationships and social skills I had via school, sports, and neighborhood kids. I love my parents but I also don't want them to be the only permanent face to face relationships in any phase of my life.
posted by Trent Crimm, The Independent at 11:45 AM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Trent Crimm, The Independent at 11:45 AM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Something that doesn't come up in these discussions very often is how good kids can be at masking the fact that they're miserable.
In discussions among people who were brought up in abusive families, we often talk about the roles we took on in order to survive. I was what's known as a 'lost child'; someone who gives up and just quietly tries to take care of themselves while desperately trying to not provoke the wrath of the parent or other kids. Other roles, such as the golden child or the scapegoat are pretty self explanatory. And the kids not only play these roles, they believe them; they truly believe that this is how they need to behave in order to get any attention or affection from their parents, to get any of their needs met, to survive. They believe this is normal.
But part of all of those roles is that you never, never, never even approach talking about how bad you feel, how awful your life is, how you wish it could change. You put on a brave face, deal with whatever lunatic plans your parents make for you, and give up on being anything but the kind of child they want you to be. Which means, of course, that you don't have any chance of being yourself until you're well and truly away from the awfulness.
When you see happy kids in these situations, going out on 'adventures!' and making the best of whatever insane situation their parents put them in, you have absolutely no idea whether they're actually happy, or they're acting. Because acting, for a lot of them, is a survival skill.
To anyone who's been in this sort of situation, or anyone who's going through this, I'd seriously advise looking into Complex PTSD; it's a condition that comes from long-term, inescapable trauma, and it's difficult to deal with, but it's treatable. Also check out the term parentification, and the long-term damage that can do.
I was subjected to all sorts of abuse during my family's 'adventure!', but if I had to nail down the one thing that hurt me the most, it was never being able to form connections with other kids. Never having friends. Meeting people who could be friends, but knowing that I'd be leaving soon and that the heartache wasn't worth it.
There's a tremendous amount of pressure put on kids in families like these to not complain, to go along with things, to be happy about the awfulness of the lives they've been thrust into. It's something that they literally can't express until they're free of that situation, and the terror that comes from living without a stable situation or adults they can rely on.
Sure, some kids might thrive living on the road. But very few adults choose that kind of lifestyle, and of those who try it a lot find out it's too much for them. But if you're a kid, and your parents have chosen this for you, and they expect it to make you happy, chances of being able to speak up and put a stop to it, to find somewhere to settle and get your needs met, are pretty slim. Chances that you'll put up a brave front, that you'll pretend to be okay with it, that you won't want to spoil your family's 'adventure!' are pretty good, though.
The addition of the social media audience must make it enormously worse, though; imagine the pressure to seem happy in front of thousands of people. Imagine being unhappy, and thinking that it's because you're weak and a coward for not being invested in the 'adventure!' Imagine knowing that if you express your unhappiness and your parents listen to you, you'll be ruining their income stream.
Kids aren't resilient. They're adaptable. They're really good at putting themselves into whatever mindset is necessary to escape abuse. But those adaptations can be astonishingly harmful later in life, when you have to try to try to find yourself under the weight of the roles you had to take on to survive.
posted by MrVisible at 12:10 PM on April 7, 2023 [73 favorites]
In discussions among people who were brought up in abusive families, we often talk about the roles we took on in order to survive. I was what's known as a 'lost child'; someone who gives up and just quietly tries to take care of themselves while desperately trying to not provoke the wrath of the parent or other kids. Other roles, such as the golden child or the scapegoat are pretty self explanatory. And the kids not only play these roles, they believe them; they truly believe that this is how they need to behave in order to get any attention or affection from their parents, to get any of their needs met, to survive. They believe this is normal.
But part of all of those roles is that you never, never, never even approach talking about how bad you feel, how awful your life is, how you wish it could change. You put on a brave face, deal with whatever lunatic plans your parents make for you, and give up on being anything but the kind of child they want you to be. Which means, of course, that you don't have any chance of being yourself until you're well and truly away from the awfulness.
When you see happy kids in these situations, going out on 'adventures!' and making the best of whatever insane situation their parents put them in, you have absolutely no idea whether they're actually happy, or they're acting. Because acting, for a lot of them, is a survival skill.
To anyone who's been in this sort of situation, or anyone who's going through this, I'd seriously advise looking into Complex PTSD; it's a condition that comes from long-term, inescapable trauma, and it's difficult to deal with, but it's treatable. Also check out the term parentification, and the long-term damage that can do.
I was subjected to all sorts of abuse during my family's 'adventure!', but if I had to nail down the one thing that hurt me the most, it was never being able to form connections with other kids. Never having friends. Meeting people who could be friends, but knowing that I'd be leaving soon and that the heartache wasn't worth it.
There's a tremendous amount of pressure put on kids in families like these to not complain, to go along with things, to be happy about the awfulness of the lives they've been thrust into. It's something that they literally can't express until they're free of that situation, and the terror that comes from living without a stable situation or adults they can rely on.
Sure, some kids might thrive living on the road. But very few adults choose that kind of lifestyle, and of those who try it a lot find out it's too much for them. But if you're a kid, and your parents have chosen this for you, and they expect it to make you happy, chances of being able to speak up and put a stop to it, to find somewhere to settle and get your needs met, are pretty slim. Chances that you'll put up a brave front, that you'll pretend to be okay with it, that you won't want to spoil your family's 'adventure!' are pretty good, though.
The addition of the social media audience must make it enormously worse, though; imagine the pressure to seem happy in front of thousands of people. Imagine being unhappy, and thinking that it's because you're weak and a coward for not being invested in the 'adventure!' Imagine knowing that if you express your unhappiness and your parents listen to you, you'll be ruining their income stream.
Kids aren't resilient. They're adaptable. They're really good at putting themselves into whatever mindset is necessary to escape abuse. But those adaptations can be astonishingly harmful later in life, when you have to try to try to find yourself under the weight of the roles you had to take on to survive.
posted by MrVisible at 12:10 PM on April 7, 2023 [73 favorites]
I'm biased because I had a relatively non-traditional childhood and feel like I came out ok, but I don't think there is anything intrinsically damaging or bad about childhoods that follow a different path than "live in one place, go to one school, have a single friend group" type of geographic and social stability. Some kids thrive in that environment, some (like me) find it stifling and welcome moving to new places. Kids are adaptable and there are a lot of ways to learn and grow.
But also, I suspect it would be easy to hide abuse when you are in a more mobile situation, without routine contact with teachers or others who might notice the signs of abuse and say something. (That said, there's no shortage of abuse that happens in geographically-stable families, either.)
Mostly, I have a lot of skepticism about people monetizing anything with their kids -- that just never seems like it is good for anyone except the parent(s) cashing in, and can border into abuse very, very easily.
However, my issue with #vanlife - and, more disclosure, I did the lite somewhat privileged version myself in 2017/2018 - is that, like tiny homes, it's become aspirational and it's really, really not. .... It's also expensive. Is it more expensive than living in a house? I would say probably it is at least the same and I bet the house is actually cheaper in many ways.
There are ways to live that lifestyle very cheaply, but a lot of the influencer vanlife people I see linked, and a lot of the people I see driving through places on the adventure-vanlife circuit like Moab, are driving very, very high-dollar rigs. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to own a $200k+ 4wd professionally-converted Sprinter van too, but realistically I am not in a position to spend that kind of cash on a depreciating, expensive to maintain vehicle.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:25 PM on April 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
But also, I suspect it would be easy to hide abuse when you are in a more mobile situation, without routine contact with teachers or others who might notice the signs of abuse and say something. (That said, there's no shortage of abuse that happens in geographically-stable families, either.)
Mostly, I have a lot of skepticism about people monetizing anything with their kids -- that just never seems like it is good for anyone except the parent(s) cashing in, and can border into abuse very, very easily.
However, my issue with #vanlife - and, more disclosure, I did the lite somewhat privileged version myself in 2017/2018 - is that, like tiny homes, it's become aspirational and it's really, really not. .... It's also expensive. Is it more expensive than living in a house? I would say probably it is at least the same and I bet the house is actually cheaper in many ways.
There are ways to live that lifestyle very cheaply, but a lot of the influencer vanlife people I see linked, and a lot of the people I see driving through places on the adventure-vanlife circuit like Moab, are driving very, very high-dollar rigs. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to own a $200k+ 4wd professionally-converted Sprinter van too, but realistically I am not in a position to spend that kind of cash on a depreciating, expensive to maintain vehicle.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:25 PM on April 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think she gave a very fair treatment of the subject (with numerous post-production clips to clarify things) but that's not going to stop people from accusing a woman on the internet of just "shitting on other people's lanes".
The fact that one of the kids asked for a birthday gift of staying in a hotel for a weekend was really... informative.
posted by AlSweigart at 1:12 PM on April 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
The fact that one of the kids asked for a birthday gift of staying in a hotel for a weekend was really... informative.
posted by AlSweigart at 1:12 PM on April 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
Kids aren't resilient. They're adaptable. They're really good at putting themselves into whatever mindset is necessary to escape abuse. But those adaptations can be astonishingly harmful later in life, when you have to try to try to find yourself under the weight of the roles you had to take on to survive.
QFT
posted by thivaia at 1:15 PM on April 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
QFT
posted by thivaia at 1:15 PM on April 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to own a $200k+ 4wd professionally-converted Sprinter van too, but realistically I am not in a position to spend that kind of cash on a depreciating, expensive to maintain vehicle.
I spend 4-6 weeks a year camping in the forests and deserts of California in my minivan (old Toyota Sienna). As far as I can tell, the fancy-pants Sprinters stick to graded roads and fee campgrounds. I never see them way out in the backcountry.
My theory is that even though the van is 4WD, actually going off road will make everything spill out of their cabinets and generally wreck the living area.
posted by ryanrs at 1:38 PM on April 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I spend 4-6 weeks a year camping in the forests and deserts of California in my minivan (old Toyota Sienna). As far as I can tell, the fancy-pants Sprinters stick to graded roads and fee campgrounds. I never see them way out in the backcountry.
My theory is that even though the van is 4WD, actually going off road will make everything spill out of their cabinets and generally wreck the living area.
posted by ryanrs at 1:38 PM on April 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Take a truck or SUV or Subaru and go camping for 2 weeks, then go back home. That's the sweet spot.
posted by ryanrs at 1:44 PM on April 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 1:44 PM on April 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
The podcast Some Place Under Neith did a series about parents who profit from exploiting their kids on social media. You know the Jackie Coogan laws that protect child actors? They don't apply to YouTube. Parents are putting pressure on their kids to be the family earners. You see only what the parents choose to show you and you have no idea what sort of pressure, manipulation, or abuse is used to make the content. Children that aren't in school are under the control of their exploiters 24/7 and producing content is a daily grind.
posted by LindsayIrene at 2:48 PM on April 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 2:48 PM on April 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
This would have been a nightmare for me. I craved, craved, craved privacy. I grew up in a small house in a dumpy part of the north side of Chicago, and because of the odd layout, there was no door on my bedroom (that I shared with my brother). Our older brother had his own room which was accessed by walking through our shared bedroom. No door. My parents slept in their own room and they did not have a door on their bedroom (!!!). This only seemed weird to me in retrospect when I was a young adult. On top of that, to access the kids' rooms, you had to walk past the wide open door of my parents' room. Small, small house. Two very tiny bathrooms.
So none of us had much privacy. I was not abused or mistreated. My parents made a livable amount of money, but we never went on family trips or vacations. Us kids never went to camp or any other summer activities. My younger brother was in some Saturday summer baseball program when he was like 10 and it lasted for a couple years. I took one art class one summer. That's it.
I'm not complaining, as we always had plenty of food, we had heat and air conditioning, we had TVs, toys, Intellivision (!!!) and when the later 1980s rolled around, we shared a Commodore 64. And we went to public schools, but my folks always worked to get us into the better schools (testing, etc), not just the crappy neighborhood ones. We had a cramped, low ceilinged basement that all three of us brothers often hung out in. But it was small and full of old books (my dad has always been a voracious reader of history books) and other random stuff.
But I never had privacy. I really always wanted more privacy. In the summer, I would spend time alone in the yard, or under the back porch, or watch TV in a separate room. No doors anywhere in the house. In winter (Chicago) we were inside all the time.
I cannot imagine growing up with the near complete lack of privacy the kids in these situations have. I know it's like this or worse in many parts of the world, but that's my main reaction to these videos.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:32 PM on April 7, 2023 [24 favorites]
So none of us had much privacy. I was not abused or mistreated. My parents made a livable amount of money, but we never went on family trips or vacations. Us kids never went to camp or any other summer activities. My younger brother was in some Saturday summer baseball program when he was like 10 and it lasted for a couple years. I took one art class one summer. That's it.
I'm not complaining, as we always had plenty of food, we had heat and air conditioning, we had TVs, toys, Intellivision (!!!) and when the later 1980s rolled around, we shared a Commodore 64. And we went to public schools, but my folks always worked to get us into the better schools (testing, etc), not just the crappy neighborhood ones. We had a cramped, low ceilinged basement that all three of us brothers often hung out in. But it was small and full of old books (my dad has always been a voracious reader of history books) and other random stuff.
But I never had privacy. I really always wanted more privacy. In the summer, I would spend time alone in the yard, or under the back porch, or watch TV in a separate room. No doors anywhere in the house. In winter (Chicago) we were inside all the time.
I cannot imagine growing up with the near complete lack of privacy the kids in these situations have. I know it's like this or worse in many parts of the world, but that's my main reaction to these videos.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:32 PM on April 7, 2023 [24 favorites]
I spend 4-6 weeks a year camping in the forests and deserts of California in my minivan (old Toyota Sienna). As far as I can tell, the fancy-pants Sprinters stick to graded roads and fee campgrounds. I never see them way out in the backcountry.
My theory is that even though the van is 4WD, actually going off road will make everything spill out of their cabinets and generally wreck the living area.
I've had the same theory about the cabinets, and similarly have never seen one of them far from pavement. (I have seen VW camper vans in some crazy spots, though.)
posted by Dip Flash at 4:06 PM on April 7, 2023
My theory is that even though the van is 4WD, actually going off road will make everything spill out of their cabinets and generally wreck the living area.
I've had the same theory about the cabinets, and similarly have never seen one of them far from pavement. (I have seen VW camper vans in some crazy spots, though.)
posted by Dip Flash at 4:06 PM on April 7, 2023
My wife and I have traveled pretty extensively in our RWD sprinter, on some fairly rough roads for that vehicle. It does fine and the 4WD does better, but it is definitely not as comfortable (or as capable) as a vehicle that doesn't start out as a 10' tall van. Cabinets and all the crap inside is easily contained if you've built them to be well attached to the vehicle and have secure door/drawer latches. It's definitely not an "overlander", though the 4WD version does well enough.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 6:49 PM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Pantengliopoli at 6:49 PM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
My theory is that even though the van is 4WD, actually going off road will make everything spill out of their cabinets and generally wreck the living area.
I have had a lot of friends that go crazy deep into 4WD places in 2WD vans and giant full sized school bus conversions complete with wood stoves and kitchens.
The trick is to lock everything down like you're on a boat in high seas. You have storage bins and milk crates for everything, not cupboards or closets like an RV.
Everything is modular and gets lashed down so it can rattle away in the safety of a bin or crate, and you set it up so you have easy access to stuff like food and cooking utensils that's also atomized or modular so you can do a quick light meal or something much more involved depending on what you unpack.
Then when you get to your camp site you can pull a whole lot of those storage bins and stuff all the way out of the vehicle to make more inside space or set up outdoor kitchens under a shelter or awning and that kind of thing.
Granted all the people that I know that do this kind of thing aren't van lifer types or influencers or any of that nonsense. They're very pragmatic forest punks or adventurers that also do things like bike touring, backpacking or live year round off grid.
posted by loquacious at 9:17 PM on April 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I have had a lot of friends that go crazy deep into 4WD places in 2WD vans and giant full sized school bus conversions complete with wood stoves and kitchens.
The trick is to lock everything down like you're on a boat in high seas. You have storage bins and milk crates for everything, not cupboards or closets like an RV.
Everything is modular and gets lashed down so it can rattle away in the safety of a bin or crate, and you set it up so you have easy access to stuff like food and cooking utensils that's also atomized or modular so you can do a quick light meal or something much more involved depending on what you unpack.
Then when you get to your camp site you can pull a whole lot of those storage bins and stuff all the way out of the vehicle to make more inside space or set up outdoor kitchens under a shelter or awning and that kind of thing.
Granted all the people that I know that do this kind of thing aren't van lifer types or influencers or any of that nonsense. They're very pragmatic forest punks or adventurers that also do things like bike touring, backpacking or live year round off grid.
posted by loquacious at 9:17 PM on April 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
...pragmatic forest punks...
Yet again, I learn about another slice of humanity.
posted by SoberHighland at 5:48 AM on April 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yet again, I learn about another slice of humanity.
posted by SoberHighland at 5:48 AM on April 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mostly I wanted to push back on the idea that you need or want a fancy, expensive vehicle to go on multi-week car camping adventures. The vehicles I see driven by actual backcountry hunters and desert rats are the complete opposite of that.
posted by ryanrs at 9:49 AM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 9:49 AM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mostly I wanted to push back on the idea that you need or want a fancy, expensive vehicle to go on multi-week car camping adventures. The vehicles I see driven by actual backcountry hunters and desert rats are the complete opposite of that.
Oh, totally. I personally know like four people with Previa minivans or similar minivans that have all the seats in the back removed with a bed in there with storage under it and some pretty fancy dual propane burner kitchen setups and pullout/slider drawers and tables where they can just lift the rear door/hatchback and cook under the shelter of the lifted back door.
I've also seen some really nice DIY Sprinters and Eurovans with similar setups that are proverbially loaded for bear, but they also use the storage container method and don't use shelves or cupboards like it's a posh RV that never leaves the pavement except for the gravel lot of an RV park.
Yet again, I learn about another slice of humanity.
Yeah, there's a whole movement in the Pacific Northwest and Cascadia area and it's kind of cool. There's a tiny little sleepy and rural forest town called Quilcene on the Olympic Peninsula that's kind of being taken over by weirdo queer goth/punk types (as well as some of the usual crunchy granola hippies types) where people are buying forested property and doing a lot of permaculture and off grid living.
Some of these people have bought and started businesses in the town and there's a bit of a renaissance happening that's saving and growing some resources like an old theater and community space and more.
There definitely has been some amount of static between the much more right wing factions of the old guard that was historically a logging and forestry based economy - but those right wing factions were also kind of already outnumbered by other long term families and residents that are much more peaceful and chill.
But by and large the locals and long term residents seem to be embracing and enjoying the changes because the "forest punk" types are all about the land stewardship, protecting the local natural resources (like salmon spawning streams) and being good citizens and community members.
The darker side to this whole thing is that a lot of this is definitely fueled by poverty and is not immune to the many issues we're discussing here in the general area of "van life". Living off grid in tiny sheds is definitely not easy.
posted by loquacious at 12:23 PM on April 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Oh, totally. I personally know like four people with Previa minivans or similar minivans that have all the seats in the back removed with a bed in there with storage under it and some pretty fancy dual propane burner kitchen setups and pullout/slider drawers and tables where they can just lift the rear door/hatchback and cook under the shelter of the lifted back door.
I've also seen some really nice DIY Sprinters and Eurovans with similar setups that are proverbially loaded for bear, but they also use the storage container method and don't use shelves or cupboards like it's a posh RV that never leaves the pavement except for the gravel lot of an RV park.
Yet again, I learn about another slice of humanity.
Yeah, there's a whole movement in the Pacific Northwest and Cascadia area and it's kind of cool. There's a tiny little sleepy and rural forest town called Quilcene on the Olympic Peninsula that's kind of being taken over by weirdo queer goth/punk types (as well as some of the usual crunchy granola hippies types) where people are buying forested property and doing a lot of permaculture and off grid living.
Some of these people have bought and started businesses in the town and there's a bit of a renaissance happening that's saving and growing some resources like an old theater and community space and more.
There definitely has been some amount of static between the much more right wing factions of the old guard that was historically a logging and forestry based economy - but those right wing factions were also kind of already outnumbered by other long term families and residents that are much more peaceful and chill.
But by and large the locals and long term residents seem to be embracing and enjoying the changes because the "forest punk" types are all about the land stewardship, protecting the local natural resources (like salmon spawning streams) and being good citizens and community members.
The darker side to this whole thing is that a lot of this is definitely fueled by poverty and is not immune to the many issues we're discussing here in the general area of "van life". Living off grid in tiny sheds is definitely not easy.
posted by loquacious at 12:23 PM on April 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Somewhere deep within the old growth forest of California, we stumble upon a fascinating encampment made by the Pragmatic Forest Punks. Their lifestyle is one that may at first seem peculiar to many of us, but upon closer inspection the beauty and practicality of their ways begins to reveal itself.
These forest-dwelling rebels attempt to live their lives avoiding the conventions of modern society, choosing instead to live in harmony with nature. They fashion their clothes from the bark of trees, forage for food in the forest, and build their tiny homes from materials from the local environment in a sustainable way, often re-purposing old, discarded technology to further their goals. Their way of life is not only sustainable but also massively respectful to the ecosystem that surrounds them and provides them with food, water, shelter, and sunlight: the four ingredients needed to keep a Pragmatic Forest Punk community thriving.
Do not be fooled into thinking that the Pragmatic Forest Punks are only about living off the land. Perhaps their greatest asset is their deep sense of community and a strong bond with their fellow forest dwellers. They gather around the campfire to share stories, sing songs, smoke weed and exchange ideas. Their society may seem primitive to some, but their ingenuity and resourcefulness are some of the most remarkable found on planet earth.
posted by some loser at 3:05 PM on April 9, 2023
These forest-dwelling rebels attempt to live their lives avoiding the conventions of modern society, choosing instead to live in harmony with nature. They fashion their clothes from the bark of trees, forage for food in the forest, and build their tiny homes from materials from the local environment in a sustainable way, often re-purposing old, discarded technology to further their goals. Their way of life is not only sustainable but also massively respectful to the ecosystem that surrounds them and provides them with food, water, shelter, and sunlight: the four ingredients needed to keep a Pragmatic Forest Punk community thriving.
Do not be fooled into thinking that the Pragmatic Forest Punks are only about living off the land. Perhaps their greatest asset is their deep sense of community and a strong bond with their fellow forest dwellers. They gather around the campfire to share stories, sing songs, smoke weed and exchange ideas. Their society may seem primitive to some, but their ingenuity and resourcefulness are some of the most remarkable found on planet earth.
posted by some loser at 3:05 PM on April 9, 2023
Mostly I wanted to push back on the idea that you need or want a fancy, expensive vehicle to go on multi-week car camping adventures. The vehicles I see driven by actual backcountry hunters and desert rats are the complete opposite of that.
Yeah, but that just means they had the time and money to invest in fixing up, customizing and tracking down parts, installing them, and making sure everything worked properly, as well as the knowledge about how to do so, which is a different type of privilege.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:17 AM on April 10, 2023
Yeah, but that just means they had the time and money to invest in fixing up, customizing and tracking down parts, installing them, and making sure everything worked properly, as well as the knowledge about how to do so, which is a different type of privilege.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:17 AM on April 10, 2023
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Then again, this youtuber makes a living with precisely this sort of screed, so it is on-brand. I just don't like this type of video, as a rule.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:48 AM on April 7, 2023 [12 favorites]