a certain smirking relation to urbanity
April 12, 2023 4:40 PM Subscribe
Faulty Towers. The suburban subjectivity is built into the architecture of ultra-thin towers. Because they are so slim, it is possible to create full-floor (or more) condominiums. A New York Times study of the ultra-affluent area between Park Avenue and Fifth Avenue from East 59th St to East 63rd St found that more than half the homes were empty for most of the year. 69,000 new housing units were built in NYC between 2014 and 2017; that year, nearly 75,000 units were purposely unoccupied.
Penthouse and Pavement
Wow, deep cut.
posted by The Tensor at 5:03 PM on April 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
Wow, deep cut.
posted by The Tensor at 5:03 PM on April 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
The tax structures that help enable these supertall residential buildings are messed up and greatly in need of reform. And you can certainly make an argument that if they were properly taxed, the city *could* in theory use those taxes to build more low-income apartments.
That said, I feel like this piece struggles to suggest that the supertalls are directly displacing or depriving the less wealthy of housing. The juxtaposition of facts in the quoted text above seems like it's trying to imply something that it doesn't actually demonstrate.
Honestly, the fact that those buildings have fairly small footprints relatively to their heights means that they are not gobbling up a tremendous amount of real estate.
There is a vast amount of low-density development in NYC, especially in the outer boroughs, that could be converted to higher-density development. I'd certainly like to see the supertalls and other luxury developments taxed properly, but they're not really any kind of meaningful contributor to our housing shortage.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:12 PM on April 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
That said, I feel like this piece struggles to suggest that the supertalls are directly displacing or depriving the less wealthy of housing. The juxtaposition of facts in the quoted text above seems like it's trying to imply something that it doesn't actually demonstrate.
Honestly, the fact that those buildings have fairly small footprints relatively to their heights means that they are not gobbling up a tremendous amount of real estate.
There is a vast amount of low-density development in NYC, especially in the outer boroughs, that could be converted to higher-density development. I'd certainly like to see the supertalls and other luxury developments taxed properly, but they're not really any kind of meaningful contributor to our housing shortage.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:12 PM on April 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
Are there any studies on their impact on the cost of construction materials? Do they tie up contractors who might otherwise be working on inhabited housing?
posted by aniola at 5:19 PM on April 12, 2023
posted by aniola at 5:19 PM on April 12, 2023
This may be a loaded question but… What exactly are the positive contributions the rich give to our culture?
posted by njohnson23 at 5:21 PM on April 12, 2023 [65 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 5:21 PM on April 12, 2023 [65 favorites]
A three-floor, four-bedroom, five-and-a-half-bathroom penthouse in 111 West 57th is currently listed for $66 million; the cheapest apartment in the building is selling for close to $9 million.
Is there something better we could be doing with the money that is going into these uninhabited monuments of wealth?
posted by aniola at 5:24 PM on April 12, 2023 [21 favorites]
Is there something better we could be doing with the money that is going into these uninhabited monuments of wealth?
posted by aniola at 5:24 PM on April 12, 2023 [21 favorites]
I recently took the train from VT to DC for the first time in years and coming through NYC, I saw many buildings, including 111 W57th that I'd never seen before. That one is pretty strange looking to me.
posted by MtDewd at 5:27 PM on April 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MtDewd at 5:27 PM on April 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, this article misses the mark. "Vertical sprawl" is a nonsense term, none of the problems of real sprawl set in when you build higher. Yes, these are luxury developments, and those are morally problematic in themselves, but if you've got to have them (which seems inevitable in the current economic system in world cities like NYC), super-tall buildings with small footprints are the ideal version. They take up little space on the street level, they cast narrow shadows that affect most adjacent lots only a short time each day, etc.
Also, the article mentions this, but it's not entirely clear until you actually take a look at maps and stuff, this building didn't crowd out some low income housing or anything, it's build literally on top of an existing building, the Steinway Hall, which was a concert venue and piano store, now also converted into condos, and its street-level facade is unchanged.
So yeah, tax the hell out of luxury real estate in general, but this seems to be the absolute best way to build luxury real estate. As someone else mentioned, NYC is kind of ridiculously low-density in most of its areas for a city that doesn't have much space to grow horizontally, and could do with many, many more taller buildings. Maybe not this tall, but certainly taller than they are now. From what I could quickly google, the average building in just Manhattan is only six stories (reasonable density, not extreme), while in NYC as a whole, it's only around 2, which seems ridiculously low, it can't be much more than notoriously sprawled and earthquake prone LA. Getting to an average of 4-5 floors throughout NYC would be a great improvement.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:30 PM on April 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
Also, the article mentions this, but it's not entirely clear until you actually take a look at maps and stuff, this building didn't crowd out some low income housing or anything, it's build literally on top of an existing building, the Steinway Hall, which was a concert venue and piano store, now also converted into condos, and its street-level facade is unchanged.
So yeah, tax the hell out of luxury real estate in general, but this seems to be the absolute best way to build luxury real estate. As someone else mentioned, NYC is kind of ridiculously low-density in most of its areas for a city that doesn't have much space to grow horizontally, and could do with many, many more taller buildings. Maybe not this tall, but certainly taller than they are now. From what I could quickly google, the average building in just Manhattan is only six stories (reasonable density, not extreme), while in NYC as a whole, it's only around 2, which seems ridiculously low, it can't be much more than notoriously sprawled and earthquake prone LA. Getting to an average of 4-5 floors throughout NYC would be a great improvement.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:30 PM on April 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
This may be a loaded question but… What exactly are the positive contributions the rich give to our culture?
They give us the dream of a future meal
posted by Dr. Twist at 6:15 PM on April 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
They give us the dream of a future meal
posted by Dr. Twist at 6:15 PM on April 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Reports of this mode of development have popped up in Boston and Seattle, and it is even more common beyond our borders in parts of Vancouver, Belgrade, Sydney, and Hong KongI can't speak for the other cities on this list but it's certainly not true of Sydney; majority-residential or investment-only developments like these would be extremely difficult and probably uneconomical in the NSW planning system, as opposed to more suburban 'luxury' development; and Australia has recently taken xenophobic-ish steps to limit 'foreign' investment in real estate. Very few people actually live in the very centre of Sydney which is dominated by commercial high-rise, since the profitability of office buildings crowds out this kind of residential use. (Melbourne, with different conditions, does have central residential high-rise, but there it doesn't have anything like this kind of ultra-rich character, nor is it mostly empty). Australian planning systems also have incredibly powerful height restrictions, to the point where height is its own special problem in providing affordable housing in established suburbs. In practice the word 'luxury' in housing development here is predominantly a marketing lie, and genuinely hyper-affluent real estate tends to be old houses with views.
That's not to say Sydney lacks offensive housing spending by the ultra-rich, it absolutely does, and probably to worse effect than in NYC; that's not to say NSW has an equitable tax system on land, it absolutely does not, and property domination is part of an Australian economic deformation. It's just to say that the form of developments of these sorts are highly determined not by economic structure, since Sydney and NYC as rapacious financial/professional services centres share a lot economically in common, or by the aims of the capitalist state, since Australia and the USA are similarly developed Western economies, but rather by a place's planning system (the 'zoning code' as the article describes it). Our planning systems and planning history could hardly be more different.
Anyway, this is all to say that the history of urban planning in the West is the history of exactly these questions of desirable and undesirable building modes, social outcomes, aspirations for the future, and managing economic conflicts. If only it were true that the State had a unitary aim in the planning sphere! Alas, they are many...
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:31 PM on April 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
The thing is this kind of development - bought as an empty investment, often in ways that would not be legal if it were another type of investment vehicle - changes the real estate market from being based on demand for living space and business space to abstract speculation. If the sale price of your building and the lot it's on isn't tied to what people in the area can pay for housing and potential return on using the space for business, but instead on the anticipated profit you could get by tearing it town and building a stack of empty commodities, it will become vastly over priced for the first listed use. The ones we need buildings to perform.
posted by sepviva at 6:43 PM on April 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by sepviva at 6:43 PM on April 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
I agree that "vertical sprawl" does not fit these towers. But neither do I think they represent anything idealized about a dense city environment.
It is built on top of an existing building, and this does reduce its physical footprint. More consequentially, I believe, it is built on top of enormous, developer-focused tax credits (the section on 421-a tax credits is particularly eye-opening), which draws from the tax base available for realizing more broad-scale, systematic, affordable, outer-borough housing developments.
So, using "sprawl" in any sense to refer to these buildings is a bit of a red herring. I'll spitball "vertical resource sinks", which as soon as I say it sounds kinda wonky but, to me, cuts to the heart of the matter.
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 7:22 PM on April 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
It is built on top of an existing building, and this does reduce its physical footprint. More consequentially, I believe, it is built on top of enormous, developer-focused tax credits (the section on 421-a tax credits is particularly eye-opening), which draws from the tax base available for realizing more broad-scale, systematic, affordable, outer-borough housing developments.
So, using "sprawl" in any sense to refer to these buildings is a bit of a red herring. I'll spitball "vertical resource sinks", which as soon as I say it sounds kinda wonky but, to me, cuts to the heart of the matter.
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 7:22 PM on April 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
In some notional theory the development air rights for an assembly of adjacent properties which are hoarded together to build these does deprive the neighbors of ability to build upwards more modestly in some other way. In practice, it just doesn't make sense to add a small number of floors to a large existing building, it only makes sense to add a very large number of floors - and NYC rules dictate that in many instances this is the only way to do that.
As an architect I'm not fond of these formally. As a human I find wealth parked in unused housing abhorrent. But, I don't find railing against these specific buildings that convincing beyond the generalized notions that wealth should instead by tasked to better providing for our fellow humans - and all that entails.
posted by meinvt at 8:18 PM on April 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
As an architect I'm not fond of these formally. As a human I find wealth parked in unused housing abhorrent. But, I don't find railing against these specific buildings that convincing beyond the generalized notions that wealth should instead by tasked to better providing for our fellow humans - and all that entails.
posted by meinvt at 8:18 PM on April 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think there's a simple solution - an unoccupancy tax based on a percentage of the unit's value of perhaps 5% per year. If you have a 10million dollar unit that you don't occupy more than 50% of the year, you pay an extra $500k/year on top of your property taxes.
posted by coberh at 8:44 PM on April 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by coberh at 8:44 PM on April 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
The thing is this kind of development - bought as an empty investment, often in ways that would not be legal if it were another type of investment vehicle - changes the real estate market from being based on demand for living space and business space to abstract speculation. If the sale price of your building and the lot it's on isn't tied to what people in the area can pay for housing and potential return on using the space for business, but instead on the anticipated profit you could get by tearing it town and building a stack of empty commodities, it will become vastly over priced for the first listed use. The ones we need buildings to perform.
Perhaps along the northern edge of midtown Manhattan -- the narrow strip where all these supertall buildings are located -- that dynamic is pretty significant right now. In most of the rest of the city, I don't think it is. Our housing shortage is mostly due to a whole host of obstacles to actually building more housing... from restrictive zoning, to NIMBY community boards, to a byzantine, bureaucratic city review process.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:00 PM on April 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Perhaps along the northern edge of midtown Manhattan -- the narrow strip where all these supertall buildings are located -- that dynamic is pretty significant right now. In most of the rest of the city, I don't think it is. Our housing shortage is mostly due to a whole host of obstacles to actually building more housing... from restrictive zoning, to NIMBY community boards, to a byzantine, bureaucratic city review process.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:00 PM on April 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would be very curious to see this actual study: "A New York Times study of the ultra-affluent area between Park Avenue and Fifth Avenue from East 59th Street to East 63rd Street found that more than half the homes were empty for most of the year..." Anyone have a link? Passing rental registry legislation is very challenging. I'm not sure how one would study unoccupied condos.. how do you know if it's occupied? I also agree that "vertical sprawl" is an abuse of the term 'sprawl' which has deeply destructive environmental and social impacts - very different from whatever problems come with these towers (mostly under-taxation or inappropriate tax breaks as mentioned in the article).
I'm interested in the organizing being described in this piece, and fuck the rich assholes, and yes tax the living daylights out of them, and yes aesthetically these towers suck but.. they just don't represent the cause of the housing crisis? Like, our anger and efforts should go toward building publicly subsidized, mixed income, high density housing. Period.
posted by latkes at 9:26 PM on April 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm interested in the organizing being described in this piece, and fuck the rich assholes, and yes tax the living daylights out of them, and yes aesthetically these towers suck but.. they just don't represent the cause of the housing crisis? Like, our anger and efforts should go toward building publicly subsidized, mixed income, high density housing. Period.
posted by latkes at 9:26 PM on April 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
The New York City Department of City Planning estimates that around forty thousand hotel rooms went “offline” during this time. About one fifth of Manhattan offices are empty. Many of these may never reopen. Hotels require relatively little renovation to become comfortable housing, and some (though far fewer) office buildings are suitable for redevelopment as inexpensive apartments. Under HONDA, the state will finance the conversion of “distressed” hotels and office buildings into housing, where at least half the rooms will be set aside for people currently living in shelters or on the streets, and the other half will be for working-class people who struggle to find affordable housing. The projects will be permanently affordable, rent stabilized (where the law allows), and never operated by for-profit landlords. We tried to open the door to public ownership, but that was a bridge too far for then-governor Andrew Cuomo *spit* and much of the legislature.
Those office workers aren't coming back. We all have webcams now. Hey - to make it affordable we'll divide the floorspace into mini dorm rooms with space for the webcam and a bed. We'll call them, um, cubicles. Work from home!
Jokes aside, converting vacant hotels and offices (these where practical) sounds like a great solution. The problem is they took this great solution and added 'give them to the homeless forever'. It's a lovely dream, but politically that was always DOA.
posted by adept256 at 9:45 PM on April 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Those office workers aren't coming back. We all have webcams now. Hey - to make it affordable we'll divide the floorspace into mini dorm rooms with space for the webcam and a bed. We'll call them, um, cubicles. Work from home!
Jokes aside, converting vacant hotels and offices (these where practical) sounds like a great solution. The problem is they took this great solution and added 'give them to the homeless forever'. It's a lovely dream, but politically that was always DOA.
posted by adept256 at 9:45 PM on April 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
aesthetically these towers suckI don't know that this is true, at least of this particular building, even the article linked admits it's architecturally quite nice, and most people talking about it on a design and architecture level seem to agree. Which makes sense, if you're making a building for the ultra-rich, you probably need to meet some minimum standard of consensus good taste for it to be attractive.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:42 PM on April 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of surprised California hasn't already put a proposition on the ballot to up property taxes dramatically. No idea if NYC has any kind of initiative system.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:59 AM on April 13, 2023
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:59 AM on April 13, 2023
It’s a blight on NYC that there’s so much unoccupied real estate. I guess it must just be a good place to park money, and dealing with tenants is too big of a pain in the ass? But there are nice apartments and whole brownstones that are empty everywhere. When I was trying to buy a place in NYC about 8 years ago, there was a thing where all-cash buyers would swoop in at the end of a sale process and pay way over asking price, and then since I was interested in the house I’d keep an eye on it - nobody ever moved in. This happened more than once just with Brooklyn brownstones I was looking at.
posted by bgribble at 4:29 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bgribble at 4:29 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think there's a simple solution - an unoccupancy tax based on a percentage of the unit's value of perhaps 5% per year.
A progressive property tax is appropriate, I think.
posted by mhoye at 4:55 AM on April 13, 2023
A progressive property tax is appropriate, I think.
posted by mhoye at 4:55 AM on April 13, 2023
It’s called money laundering pure and simple. Look at how many units in buildings on billionaires row changed hands before the buildings were even complete. Real estate is a specially shielded way to move money. LLC’s and shell corporations are a given when it comes to purchases at this scale and that’s for legitimate transactions. London is a prime example. But look at Vancouver and of course NYC. If you need to move wealth around the world or even rehabilitate some shady derivatives these buildings are almost tailor made for it.
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 5:07 AM on April 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 5:07 AM on April 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
Second and more residences should definitely be taxed to nosebleed levels. Real estate as investment is out of control.
That said, I fuckin love those matchstick buildings.
posted by rhizome at 5:35 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
That said, I fuckin love those matchstick buildings.
posted by rhizome at 5:35 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Converting offices into apartments is really expensive and the resulting floorplans tend to be really odd. It's not going to deliver deeply affordable housing unless you give up on the idea that a bedroom should have a window and every unit should have its own bathroom.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 5:56 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 5:56 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Converting offices into apartments is really expensive and the resulting floorplans tend to be really odd. It's not going to deliver deeply affordable housing unless you give up on the idea that a bedroom should have a window and every unit should have its own bathroom.
Indeed, "the country's biggest office-to-apartments conversion is underway" and it features: tiny windows; "home offices" without windows; the need to carve out a courtyard in the middle of the building so that apartments can get light; and, of course, market-rate and luxury apartments unaffordable to the population of New Yorkers who are squeezed by housing (and get further squeezed by the development of luxury housing!).
posted by entropone at 6:11 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Indeed, "the country's biggest office-to-apartments conversion is underway" and it features: tiny windows; "home offices" without windows; the need to carve out a courtyard in the middle of the building so that apartments can get light; and, of course, market-rate and luxury apartments unaffordable to the population of New Yorkers who are squeezed by housing (and get further squeezed by the development of luxury housing!).
posted by entropone at 6:11 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
The latest hot thing in Toronto is 70+ storey buildings with 8-12 units per floor. (Eight elevators, I shit you not; a thousand feet tall.) I mean, great, housing, lots of it! But also, though, it sure would be nice to knock down some of the shitty old single family houses not TWO BLOCKS away and put up a lot of somethings of a more modest height.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:17 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:17 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's a bunch of office to apartment projects either recently done or in the works here but they're all in buildings built from the 19th century up through the mid-20th before building plates got huge. These are all narrow enough that all the rooms can have windows. This one is in a 1906 bank tower in what was Pittsburgh's "Wall Street" at the time.
posted by octothorpe at 6:28 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:28 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
"69,000 new housing units were built in NYC between 2014 and 2017; that year, nearly 75,000 units were purposely unoccupied."
I can't find a source for that (I can't find it in the linked article, am I missing something?). What does "purposely unoccupied" mean?
On a quick google--New York City has about 2.2 million renter-occupied units, and the rental vacancy rate was 5.2% in 2017 according to https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NYRVAC, which would mean a little over 100,000 vacant rentals.
At any given moment a certain number of apartments are going to be between tenants. I don't think it's necessarily realistic to think we're going to shuffle households between those temporarily vacant apartments as a way to increase the effective housing supply.
In general higher vacancy rates are thought of as indicating a market that's favorable to renters, not the reverse....
But again I'm not sure what this 75,000 number actually means and where it came from.
posted by bfields at 6:41 AM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can't find a source for that (I can't find it in the linked article, am I missing something?). What does "purposely unoccupied" mean?
On a quick google--New York City has about 2.2 million renter-occupied units, and the rental vacancy rate was 5.2% in 2017 according to https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NYRVAC, which would mean a little over 100,000 vacant rentals.
At any given moment a certain number of apartments are going to be between tenants. I don't think it's necessarily realistic to think we're going to shuffle households between those temporarily vacant apartments as a way to increase the effective housing supply.
In general higher vacancy rates are thought of as indicating a market that's favorable to renters, not the reverse....
But again I'm not sure what this 75,000 number actually means and where it came from.
posted by bfields at 6:41 AM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
This may be a loaded question but… What exactly are the positive contributions the rich give to our culture?
"In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face." —Diogenes of Sinope (404-323 BCE)
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:45 AM on April 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
"In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face." —Diogenes of Sinope (404-323 BCE)
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:45 AM on April 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
thecity.nyc: More than 60,000 Rent-Stabilized Apartments Are Now Vacant — and Tenant Advocates Say Landlords Are Holding Them for ‘Ransom’
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:47 AM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:47 AM on April 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
> In general higher vacancy rates are thought of as indicating a market that's favorable to renters, not the reverse....
That's if the units are actually on the rental market. I think the case with "purposefully vacant" buildings is that they are NOT on the rental market -- they are just standing locked and empty with some minimal caretaking to make sure nobody squats.
posted by bgribble at 7:14 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's if the units are actually on the rental market. I think the case with "purposefully vacant" buildings is that they are NOT on the rental market -- they are just standing locked and empty with some minimal caretaking to make sure nobody squats.
posted by bgribble at 7:14 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Tall buildings steal the sun. The poor millionaires on lower floors must surely suffer.
posted by theora55 at 7:46 AM on April 13, 2023
posted by theora55 at 7:46 AM on April 13, 2023
Thanks for posting that link 1970s Antihero. It's good to bring some data into this discussion since we all have preconceptions.
Looking at the survey results linked in the article, they emphasize that data is incomplete for the most recent year, and per the article, there are new legal requirements for lead remediation during vacancy periods which could be impacting these numbers, so hard to draw definitive conclusions, but it does seem to represent a terrible phenomenon. Landlords have definitely been big babies during the eviction moratoriums. Here in California we have a movement for vacancy taxes - that seems like one important intervention. To do that you do need a good log of what rentals even exist, which that survey seems to indicate does exist in NY City, but doesn't exist in most places.
Still, vacancy rates are at a historic low point, so this particular phenom still doesn't touch the overall trend that we have less housing than we need.
Anyway, the particular high rise, high income condos described in this article are a tiny fraction of the overall housing market and basically have little to no impact on overall housing trends.
posted by latkes at 7:51 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Looking at the survey results linked in the article, they emphasize that data is incomplete for the most recent year, and per the article, there are new legal requirements for lead remediation during vacancy periods which could be impacting these numbers, so hard to draw definitive conclusions, but it does seem to represent a terrible phenomenon. Landlords have definitely been big babies during the eviction moratoriums. Here in California we have a movement for vacancy taxes - that seems like one important intervention. To do that you do need a good log of what rentals even exist, which that survey seems to indicate does exist in NY City, but doesn't exist in most places.
Still, vacancy rates are at a historic low point, so this particular phenom still doesn't touch the overall trend that we have less housing than we need.
Anyway, the particular high rise, high income condos described in this article are a tiny fraction of the overall housing market and basically have little to no impact on overall housing trends.
posted by latkes at 7:51 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
About one fifth of Manhattan offices are empty.
Only 20% office vacancy is actually still pretty good. Office in the US is so overbuilt it's not even funny, the exact opposite of housing. Most cities have 20%+ office vacancy, and that was before COVID. 20% office vacancy translates to millions of empty square footage.
Look at how many units in buildings on billionaires row changed hands before the buildings were even complete.
Lots of buildings have some units presold, but generally expensive units take 5-7 years to get to 'fully occupied', which means every unit has sold to someone at least once. Normal priced ones are expected to be fully rented in 1 year.
"69,000 new housing units were built in NYC between 2014 and 2017; that year, nearly 75,000 units were purposely unoccupied."
Yes, 75,000 units 'purposefully unoccupied' includes all sort of factors, including under renovation, between renters, etc. It's not an accurate number of empty apartments.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:04 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Only 20% office vacancy is actually still pretty good. Office in the US is so overbuilt it's not even funny, the exact opposite of housing. Most cities have 20%+ office vacancy, and that was before COVID. 20% office vacancy translates to millions of empty square footage.
Look at how many units in buildings on billionaires row changed hands before the buildings were even complete.
Lots of buildings have some units presold, but generally expensive units take 5-7 years to get to 'fully occupied', which means every unit has sold to someone at least once. Normal priced ones are expected to be fully rented in 1 year.
"69,000 new housing units were built in NYC between 2014 and 2017; that year, nearly 75,000 units were purposely unoccupied."
Yes, 75,000 units 'purposefully unoccupied' includes all sort of factors, including under renovation, between renters, etc. It's not an accurate number of empty apartments.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:04 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
After reading the article, I think the author's definition of "purposely unoccupied" already takes those factors into account. Their entire thesis is that there's a staggering amount of housing in NYC that just sits around vacant because it's not meant to be lived in. Actually housing people isn't the primary purpose of these luxury high-rises because of a variety perverse financial and economic incentives.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:17 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:17 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I haven't noticed any of these super thin, super tall towers in Vancouver. More like somewhat thin, moderately tall residential, but not one unit per floor. They might be challenging to get around the view corridor rules where they're not in line with other existing developments. Projects are so difficult to get approved that I suspect developers try to bundle together larger parcels and whole blocks wherever possible. Empty Homes Tax might hopefully disincentivize building properties that are hard to fill with residents. I doubt the city would approve the ones of the type I saw in NYC.
posted by lookoutbelow at 8:22 AM on April 13, 2023
posted by lookoutbelow at 8:22 AM on April 13, 2023
The tall, thin tower is mostly a NYC thing, a result of small lots, and a loophole in the building code that allowed developers to build taller than they normally could.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:30 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:30 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Tall buildings steal the sun. The poor millionaires on lower floors must surely suffer.
The supertalls also cast long shadows on Central Park, which, despite best efforts, remains free and open to the public.
posted by praemunire at 8:47 AM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
The supertalls also cast long shadows on Central Park, which, despite best efforts, remains free and open to the public.
posted by praemunire at 8:47 AM on April 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Their entire thesis is that there's a staggering amount of housing in NYC that just sits around vacant because it's not meant to be lived in.
Yeah, but that's way wrong, as in not backed up by any actual facts. Some units are owned by people who don't live there full time, and really expensive new construction ones can take a long time to sell. Those are real factors.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:50 AM on April 13, 2023
Yeah, but that's way wrong, as in not backed up by any actual facts. Some units are owned by people who don't live there full time, and really expensive new construction ones can take a long time to sell. Those are real factors.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:50 AM on April 13, 2023
I'm going to invite you to contemplate these facts, which I find sufficiently staggering.
posted by praemunire at 9:06 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 9:06 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
From the 2021 New York City Housing and Vacancy Survey (it's a pdf) on Units Not Available for Rent or Sale (emphases added):
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:13 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
The numerator of the net rental vacancy rate calculation included all units that were not occupied andHaving so damn many NYC residential units cordoned off as seasonal vacation homes (I want to put scare quotes around "home") actually buttresses criticism of the hyperfinancialization of real estate and its primary use as investment vehicles or "safety deposit boxes in the sky".
available for rent such that a new tenant could move in at the time of the survey.
Units that did not meet this definition were classified as vacant and not available for rent or sale. In 2021, there were 353,400 units that were vacant but not available for one or more reason, up from 248,000 in 2017.
Of the 244,400 that were unavailable for only one reason, the most prevalent reason was that the unit was held for seasonal, recreational, or occasional use (102,900 units or 29 percent of all units not available for rent
or sale), up from 74,950 in 2017.
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:13 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think there's also a middle ground for NYC between "fully occupied" and "never occupied and never really meant to be" where because of the city income tax structure, people who might think of themselves as New Yorkers are out of the city over 50% of the year so they don't have to claim that as their residence. Obviously, these people are wealthy, but their apartment that they live in 45% of the time might not just be a real estate investment or money laundering thing. There was some thing in the New Yorker years ago about following someone who was keeping rigid track of how much time he spent in the city to avoid the income tax. I'm not saying these people need to have their lifestyles especially accommodated for, just noting that they exist in a place that's one of the world financial capitals.
posted by LionIndex at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2023
posted by LionIndex at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2023
Our climate crisis and our housing crisis demand at minimum the following:
Outlaw single family zoning.
Outlaw greenfield sprawl.
Mandate 5-10 stories residential zoning in all high-opportunity areas (where there are parks, schools, jobs)
Ban private cars in high density zones. Outlaw parking minimums on new construction (instead have parking maximums)
Fully fund frequent/safe/reliable public transit
Push the federal government to directly fund/subsidize/build housing again - at scale
Rental registries & vacancy taxes would be a great adjunct to above but are unlikely to have the impact of the above.
These are literally the basics to solve our crises. But if I had my druthers we should ban private land ownership (or at least tax the hell out of it) and only allow long-term leases to construct accessible, efficient, dense new multi-family homes
posted by latkes at 9:48 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Outlaw single family zoning.
Outlaw greenfield sprawl.
Mandate 5-10 stories residential zoning in all high-opportunity areas (where there are parks, schools, jobs)
Ban private cars in high density zones. Outlaw parking minimums on new construction (instead have parking maximums)
Fully fund frequent/safe/reliable public transit
Push the federal government to directly fund/subsidize/build housing again - at scale
Rental registries & vacancy taxes would be a great adjunct to above but are unlikely to have the impact of the above.
These are literally the basics to solve our crises. But if I had my druthers we should ban private land ownership (or at least tax the hell out of it) and only allow long-term leases to construct accessible, efficient, dense new multi-family homes
posted by latkes at 9:48 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
people who might think of themselves as New Yorkers are out of the city over 50% of the year so they don't have to claim that as their residence. Obviously, these people are wealthy
These are very rich people, and a small minority of the very rich with specialized needs, even. Not enough to significantly affect the numbers.
But, also: fuck 'em.
posted by praemunire at 10:03 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
These are very rich people, and a small minority of the very rich with specialized needs, even. Not enough to significantly affect the numbers.
But, also: fuck 'em.
posted by praemunire at 10:03 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think this article is missing the single fact that most supports its hypothesis: in order to build buildings with these heights and views, developers purchase the air rights of surrounding buildings. This artificially decreases the potential height - and by extension density - of surrounding lots and contributes to relative “sprawl”.
It’s still dense in number of apartments per square foot compared to many parts of NYC, though.
posted by A Blue Moon at 10:41 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s still dense in number of apartments per square foot compared to many parts of NYC, though.
posted by A Blue Moon at 10:41 AM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure how one would study unoccupied condos.. how do you know if it's occupied?
It’s either claimed as a residence for tax purposes or it isn’t, yeah? Leading to the 45%-ers above. If not a residence, tax it more.
(In the 1990s I knew someone who lived in France for six months less a day of every year. Loved the quality of life, resented the taxes. How I wished for some ashblow or storm to keep him there that telling day.)
posted by clew at 10:57 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
It’s either claimed as a residence for tax purposes or it isn’t, yeah? Leading to the 45%-ers above. If not a residence, tax it more.
(In the 1990s I knew someone who lived in France for six months less a day of every year. Loved the quality of life, resented the taxes. How I wished for some ashblow or storm to keep him there that telling day.)
posted by clew at 10:57 AM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
A while back there was a New Yorker article about the lengths people go to avoid paying NYC residency taxes. New York definitely pays close attention to who is living where.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:09 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:09 AM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Our climate crisis and our housing crisis demand at minimum the following:
Sounds alright, here are some things I'd like to add to the minimum agenda
Outlaw single family zoning.
If you're going to outlaw single family zoning, I think you have to increase public housing at the same time. Which it looks like you addressed with Push the federal government to directly fund/subsidize/build housing again - at scale, it's just, I'd like to combine these two items.
Mandate 5-10 stories residential zoning in all high-opportunity areas (where there are parks, schools, jobs)
From what I've read, if 5 stories is common, you probably won't need 10 stories. Things I don't like about taller buildings: it's harder to get out if you use a wheelchair. I'm fully mobile, and in an emergency, I'd much rather be in the top story of a 5-story building than the top of a 10-story building.
Outlaw greenfield sprawl.
I'd like to see this happen in tandem with full public funding for replacing greenfield sprawl with food forests, community gardens, etc.
Ban private cars in high density zones. Outlaw parking minimums on new construction (instead have parking maximums)
Sounds good, let's add those motor vehicle parking maximums. We're starting to see bike parking requirements, which are usually woefully inadequate for the sorts of bikes I ride. Motor vehicle parking minimums were never science-based so I'm not sure how to do bike parking minimums any better but where there's a will, there's a way. I'd also like to see pedestrian parking standards. Benches and adequate amounts of other publicly-owned spaces for resting for everyone. And public restrooms are a health and transportation equity thing. So lots more of those, too.
Speaking of restrooms and ban private land ownership I'd also like to see recycling of human waste, which should be a lot easier with publicly-owned housing and all these publicly-maintained food forests and such.
posted by aniola at 11:39 AM on April 13, 2023
Sounds alright, here are some things I'd like to add to the minimum agenda
Outlaw single family zoning.
If you're going to outlaw single family zoning, I think you have to increase public housing at the same time. Which it looks like you addressed with Push the federal government to directly fund/subsidize/build housing again - at scale, it's just, I'd like to combine these two items.
Mandate 5-10 stories residential zoning in all high-opportunity areas (where there are parks, schools, jobs)
From what I've read, if 5 stories is common, you probably won't need 10 stories. Things I don't like about taller buildings: it's harder to get out if you use a wheelchair. I'm fully mobile, and in an emergency, I'd much rather be in the top story of a 5-story building than the top of a 10-story building.
Outlaw greenfield sprawl.
I'd like to see this happen in tandem with full public funding for replacing greenfield sprawl with food forests, community gardens, etc.
Ban private cars in high density zones. Outlaw parking minimums on new construction (instead have parking maximums)
Sounds good, let's add those motor vehicle parking maximums. We're starting to see bike parking requirements, which are usually woefully inadequate for the sorts of bikes I ride. Motor vehicle parking minimums were never science-based so I'm not sure how to do bike parking minimums any better but where there's a will, there's a way. I'd also like to see pedestrian parking standards. Benches and adequate amounts of other publicly-owned spaces for resting for everyone. And public restrooms are a health and transportation equity thing. So lots more of those, too.
Speaking of restrooms and ban private land ownership I'd also like to see recycling of human waste, which should be a lot easier with publicly-owned housing and all these publicly-maintained food forests and such.
posted by aniola at 11:39 AM on April 13, 2023
I know the article says the architecture for these ultra-thin towers is aesthetically pleasing compared to other skyscrapers which are just stretched shorter towers or something, but they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Aesthetically, I don't like skyscrapers and I don't like these. They're impressive, but I don't like them. I don't think the world needs buildings that require aerial cranes (construction helicopters). Skyscrapers interrupt the sky. I do like redwood forests, though. I wonder what the difference is. But I'm glad other people like skyscrapers, because people have to live in places with skyscrapers and I suppose it's nice to be able to like what you have to live with every day.
posted by aniola at 1:04 PM on April 13, 2023
Aesthetically, I don't like skyscrapers and I don't like these. They're impressive, but I don't like them. I don't think the world needs buildings that require aerial cranes (construction helicopters). Skyscrapers interrupt the sky. I do like redwood forests, though. I wonder what the difference is. But I'm glad other people like skyscrapers, because people have to live in places with skyscrapers and I suppose it's nice to be able to like what you have to live with every day.
posted by aniola at 1:04 PM on April 13, 2023
(In the 1990s I knew someone who lived in France for six months less a day of every year. Loved the quality of life, resented the taxes. How I wished for some ashblow or storm to keep him there that telling day.)
Lots of Canadians who winter in the USA got caught out by this during covid shutdowns.
posted by Mitheral at 1:06 PM on April 13, 2023
This may be a loaded question but… What exactly are the positive contributions the rich give to our culture?
Don't be ridiculous. The rich exhale carbon dioxide, which is needed by plants.
posted by zardoz at 1:43 PM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Don't be ridiculous. The rich exhale carbon dioxide, which is needed by plants.
posted by zardoz at 1:43 PM on April 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
My nephew is a structural engineer who designs skyscrapers. I'm traveling next month to an area where he has two under construction: a nearly complete one of 60+ stories and a just begun one of 80+ stories. He's promised to show them to me. I'll report back.
posted by neuron at 4:38 PM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by neuron at 4:38 PM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Don't be ridiculous. The rich exhale carbon dioxide, which is needed by plants.Wait until you hear about what more we can do to the rich that'll give them opportunities to provide even more nutrition to plants!
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:45 PM on April 13, 2023
I know the article says the architecture for these ultra-thin towers is aesthetically pleasing compared to other skyscrapers
This is, to put it mildly, a contrarian claim. Not that there aren't some ugly-ass skyscrapers in NYC, but if you like them at all, the classics are all downtown, e.g., 70 Pine, the Woolworth Building, the New York Life building. And if you've got something against setbacks, the Equitable is quite handsome on street level.
posted by praemunire at 6:16 PM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is, to put it mildly, a contrarian claim. Not that there aren't some ugly-ass skyscrapers in NYC, but if you like them at all, the classics are all downtown, e.g., 70 Pine, the Woolworth Building, the New York Life building. And if you've got something against setbacks, the Equitable is quite handsome on street level.
posted by praemunire at 6:16 PM on April 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I appreciate your efforts, but skyscrapers are wasted on me. I think they're weird (in some of them they won't even let you go up the stairs. The stairs are the best part!) and unnecessary and I'm very glad the people who have to live with them like them the way they are.
I would assume liking skyscrapers is common in skyscraper cities and less common in places without skyscrapers. Just like people in Southern California are more likely to be sun lovers and in the Pacific Northwest it is somehow common to prefer the cold, wet, and dark.
posted by aniola at 8:39 PM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would assume liking skyscrapers is common in skyscraper cities and less common in places without skyscrapers. Just like people in Southern California are more likely to be sun lovers and in the Pacific Northwest it is somehow common to prefer the cold, wet, and dark.
posted by aniola at 8:39 PM on April 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wasn't so much trying to get you to like skyscrapers--that's a matter of personal taste, to be sure--as to illustrate the minority nature of the article's position.
posted by praemunire at 10:14 AM on April 14, 2023
posted by praemunire at 10:14 AM on April 14, 2023
If you have a 10million dollar unit that you don't occupy more than 50% of the year, you pay an extra $500k/year on top of your property taxes.
And then all those extra taxes will go to the NYPD so they can regulate unhoused people and protect property values...
posted by Reyturner at 9:09 AM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
And then all those extra taxes will go to the NYPD so they can regulate unhoused people and protect property values...
posted by Reyturner at 9:09 AM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
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