Extra-national Chinese Police stations
April 19, 2023 1:34 PM Subscribe
Canadians describe surveillance, intimidation and terror 'under China's shadow'. In the UK, Alarm Over Chinese Businessman And 'Secret Police Station'. And in the Washington Post, Chinese police stations in NYC are part of a vast influence operation.
(archive link)
Note that the WaPo posted that last in their 'Opinion' section. Predictably, there's lots more on this topic in right-wing media.
(archive link)
Note that the WaPo posted that last in their 'Opinion' section. Predictably, there's lots more on this topic in right-wing media.
Related from a few months back but “ A Hong Kong pro-democracy protester was pulled into Chinese consulate grounds in Manchester (UK) on Sunday and beaten…. The consulate says protesters displayed an insulting portrait of China's president.”
Pretty alarming that a Consulate can just do this and get away with not much more than some bad press (haven’t seen any news of more serious outcome for Consulate staff but may have missed it). The message to Chinese dissidents is clear.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:49 PM on April 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
Pretty alarming that a Consulate can just do this and get away with not much more than some bad press (haven’t seen any news of more serious outcome for Consulate staff but may have missed it). The message to Chinese dissidents is clear.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:49 PM on April 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
China Unbound: A New World Disorder is an interesting book partly about this subject by journalist Joanna Chiu. It's depressing.
posted by ovvl at 2:01 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 2:01 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Along with the RESTRICT act, it seems like the establishment is really beating the drums for a new Cold War.
Thing about the Cold War is, the US won it by driving a schism between Russia and China. While the Russian Federation is definitely now the lesser party in the partnership, do we really want a cold war and a trade war at this time?
I'm not downplaying the multiple genocides against the Tibetan, Hakka, and Uighur people. But I am suggesting that we operate with some realism, and not this Amerocentric idea. One enemy at time, and right now, that is the priority of supporting Ukraine and deterring Russian aggression.
Empires and hegemonies fall when they attempt to take on too many powers at once. We're already engaged against Iran and Russia.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:04 PM on April 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Thing about the Cold War is, the US won it by driving a schism between Russia and China. While the Russian Federation is definitely now the lesser party in the partnership, do we really want a cold war and a trade war at this time?
I'm not downplaying the multiple genocides against the Tibetan, Hakka, and Uighur people. But I am suggesting that we operate with some realism, and not this Amerocentric idea. One enemy at time, and right now, that is the priority of supporting Ukraine and deterring Russian aggression.
Empires and hegemonies fall when they attempt to take on too many powers at once. We're already engaged against Iran and Russia.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:04 PM on April 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Along with the RESTRICT act, it seems like the establishment is really beating the drums for a new Cold War.
Are you saying these articles are government plants?
posted by mr_roboto at 2:16 PM on April 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
Are you saying these articles are government plants?
posted by mr_roboto at 2:16 PM on April 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
If so, the full-on Chinese police car reproductions that have been spotted here in Orange County must be government plants as well.
Although, those are probably dumb-ass rich kids more than anything.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 2:53 PM on April 19, 2023
Although, those are probably dumb-ass rich kids more than anything.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 2:53 PM on April 19, 2023
Also, I think you might be overstating Russia's military capabilities with that "one enemy at time" comment. So far the DoD's check writing fingers are getting a workout, but that's about it. They wouldn't even have to sink the one existing Russian aircraft carrier because it's been in dry dock for 5 years.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 2:59 PM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 2:59 PM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also in Australia, apparently (which like the other places mentioned has a very large diaspora/migrant/temporary worker Chinese community).
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:47 PM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Thing about the Cold War is, the US won it by driving a schism between Russia and ChinaIf we’re going to discuss America-centrism, the Sino-Soviet split had almost nothing to do with the US at all, and Deng’s later economic shifts were not really prompted by exterior influence. This isn’t about imperialism, except insofar as the PRC claims extraterritorial jurisdiction over everyone and everything ‘Chinese’, including e.g. in Australia, Chinese communities that have been present since the 19th century.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:47 PM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Are you saying these articles are government plants?
It doesn't sound like they are saying that, from the text they wrote! :)
posted by dusty potato at 3:55 PM on April 19, 2023
It doesn't sound like they are saying that, from the text they wrote! :)
posted by dusty potato at 3:55 PM on April 19, 2023
China’s Secret Police Stations in Europe
China has allegedly established dozens of police stations abroad, including many in Europe. Beijing has sought to play down the reports, but one dissident in Europe recounts how he has been constantly harassed by staff members of one such office. [Der Spiegel]
Italy hosts largest number of shadow Chinese ‘police stations’ worldwide, report says [Politico.eu]
posted by UN at 3:57 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
China has allegedly established dozens of police stations abroad, including many in Europe. Beijing has sought to play down the reports, but one dissident in Europe recounts how he has been constantly harassed by staff members of one such office. [Der Spiegel]
Italy hosts largest number of shadow Chinese ‘police stations’ worldwide, report says [Politico.eu]
posted by UN at 3:57 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
No genuinely great power would permit its own agencies to behave like such a petty fucking nuisance.
posted by flabdablet at 3:59 PM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 3:59 PM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Here's (twitter link) a map of NYPD overseas offices.
There's quite a few.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:11 PM on April 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
There's quite a few.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:11 PM on April 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
While there is some differences that comes with operating under an official invitation, I am certain these NYPD locations actual activities are just as shrouded in secrecy.
Shut them both down.
posted by zenon at 4:24 PM on April 19, 2023
Shut them both down.
posted by zenon at 4:24 PM on April 19, 2023
I think it was a few years ago, either with reports about Chinese police stations in the UK or maybe previous ones in the US... but I guess until that point I was a total naive and it never occurred to me that one country would set up a cop shop in another country.
Mister Rogers was an amazing man, but he didn't teach me much about how the world really works.
posted by hippybear at 4:28 PM on April 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mister Rogers was an amazing man, but he didn't teach me much about how the world really works.
posted by hippybear at 4:28 PM on April 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Obviously you never got the Werewolf Channel when you had cable. Had you watched his show on that, you would know better now.
posted by y2karl at 4:43 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 4:43 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Officer Clemmons was pretty cool.
posted by clavdivs at 5:01 PM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 5:01 PM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
But I am suggesting that we operate with some realism, and not this Amerocentric idea. One enemy at time
I’m sorry, but this is just stunningly naive of what the CCP has become under Xi Jinping. You can’t bury your head in the sand and expect China to go back to being our good buddy cheap labor trade partner from 20 years ago. China is now extremely aggressive and is bringing the fight to the rest of the world, whether we like it or not, as these unofficial police stations demonstrate.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 5:14 PM on April 19, 2023 [27 favorites]
I’m sorry, but this is just stunningly naive of what the CCP has become under Xi Jinping. You can’t bury your head in the sand and expect China to go back to being our good buddy cheap labor trade partner from 20 years ago. China is now extremely aggressive and is bringing the fight to the rest of the world, whether we like it or not, as these unofficial police stations demonstrate.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 5:14 PM on April 19, 2023 [27 favorites]
While there is some differences that comes with operating under an official invitation, I am certain these NYPD locations actual activities are just as shrouded in secrecy.
Yeah, I can't imagine what shadowy secret things the NYPD guy in Lyon is up to. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the INTERPOL office being located there. Same as the guy in The Hague who I'm sure has a shadowy agenda that is nothing to do with the International Criminal Court down the street. And the even more shocking reveal that Los Angeles and Washington are overseas! (I don't know if this is shocking political news or shocking geological news.)
posted by Superilla at 5:15 PM on April 19, 2023 [17 favorites]
Yeah, I can't imagine what shadowy secret things the NYPD guy in Lyon is up to. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the INTERPOL office being located there. Same as the guy in The Hague who I'm sure has a shadowy agenda that is nothing to do with the International Criminal Court down the street. And the even more shocking reveal that Los Angeles and Washington are overseas! (I don't know if this is shocking political news or shocking geological news.)
posted by Superilla at 5:15 PM on April 19, 2023 [17 favorites]
Well, some dudes in Reno put up a sign that said Los Angeles City Limits during the Dust Bowl to make fun of the LAPD who operating way into Nevada and Arizona to prevent migrate workers from riding boxcars into Los Angeles.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 5:42 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 5:42 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
There’s the world of difference between police liaison by official arrangements, and these shady halfway-stations, and IMO the conflation of them together is a weird ‘BUT AMERICA DOES THIS TOO’ both-sidesism that Americans bafflingly keep bringing back up to centre the evils of their own country. Come on Americans, it isn’t always about you.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:52 PM on April 19, 2023 [49 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:52 PM on April 19, 2023 [49 favorites]
This is wild. And I honestly probably never would have seen this news without MeFi. Thanks, MeFi!
posted by pelvicsorcery at 6:55 PM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by pelvicsorcery at 6:55 PM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
It is unwise to criticize China with America's past as it is to criticize America with China's past.
posted by clavdivs at 7:31 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 7:31 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
The information warfare against China has been ramping up for a good long while now - spy balloons, regurgitating the Wuhan speculation, the TikTok tribunal, backchanneling with Russia over Ukraine. With 90 seconds of duckduckgoing to jog my memory I could probably name a dozen other stories in the recent months that have been stoking the establishment war rage. I don’t like where this is going.
posted by slogger at 7:41 PM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by slogger at 7:41 PM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
I am suggesting that we operate with some realism, and not this Amerocentric idea. One enemy at time
There is no idea more Amerocentric than the idea that the US, all by itself, can decide what its relationships with other countries will be like.
posted by mstokes650 at 7:41 PM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is no idea more Amerocentric than the idea that the US, all by itself, can decide what its relationships with other countries will be like.
posted by mstokes650 at 7:41 PM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
It strikes me as maybe a little bizarre to look at a set of news articles about one national government setting up extra national police stations in several countries and other national governments officially responding and conclude that the most consequential or suspect aspect of the situation is that there have been news articles written about this.
posted by eponym at 8:12 PM on April 19, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by eponym at 8:12 PM on April 19, 2023 [22 favorites]
Come on Americans, it isn’t always about you.
I've been on metafilter since around 2005 or so, and experience shows this is true only if proactively enforced by the mods.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 9:17 PM on April 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
I've been on metafilter since around 2005 or so, and experience shows this is true only if proactively enforced by the mods.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 9:17 PM on April 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
For the purpose of understanding China's emerging attitude toward the West, there was a very illuminating recent story on the BBC about the return of panda Ya Ya from the Memphis zoo
To what end? Well, popular support for backing Putin's play in Ukraine for starters, and then taking back Taiwan.
posted by jamjam at 9:30 PM on April 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
A farewell party for 22-year-old Ya Ya at Memphis Zoo took place on Saturday.China is (very self-consciously at the official level) working itself into a state of heightened popular grievance against the West, particularly the US.
She and her male mate Le Le, who died in February, had been monitored closely by Chinese people, after questions were raised over their treatment at the zoo.
It has previously denied such allegations and accused activists of spreading false information.
The zoo says Ya Ya has a chronic skin and fur condition, which "occasionally make her hair look thin and patchy".
[…]
Around 500 people attended the event in the Tennessee city, which featured Chinese cultural performances and goodbye letters.
Ya Ya was surrounded by bamboo and given a special ice cake made of grapes, sugar cane, and cookies, according to pictures and videos shared online. Many Chinese followed it live online.
"Safe travels Ya Ya. You will be missed by so many," a comment on the zoo's Facebook page read. "We will miss you... You have brought us so much joy," added a user on its Twitter page.
But other comments aimed at the zoo appeared more aggressive. "Stop faking your affection, you make me sick," said one comment in Chinese.
"Ya Ya [has] suffered such a hard time. Come back home - we're all waiting for you," another person wrote.
Ya Ya and Le Le arrived in the Tennessee city in 2003 on loan. China has long used so-called panda diplomacy to help foster relationships with other countries.
But in recent times, Memphis Zoo has been grilled by Chinese netizens over accusations that Ya Ya and Le Le had been mistreated during their stay.
It followed allegations - rejected by the zoo - that the pair had suffered physical and mental diseases.
A video posted by animal advocacy groups In Defense of Animals and Panda Voices last year showed the pandas pacing in circles. The groups said the animals appeared to have lost fur and weight, and called for them to be "returned to China before it's too late".
Months later, the zoo announced they the pandas would be returned to China as an agreement with the Chinese Association of Zoological Gardens had come to an end. It said the decision had nothing to do with pressure from animal advocates, according to Reuters.
But there was renewed anger in China after 25-year-old Le Le's death in February. Although giant pandas usually live for 25 to 30 years in captivity, many questioned whether the animals usually seen as China's "national treasure" were being neglected by zookeepers in the US, when ties between the two countries had already worsened due to diplomatic disputes and trade barriers.
Online, people started pressing for Ya Ya to return to China earlier. Many put up slogans and pictures on various advertisement spots across China and called up relevant departments asking for updates. Some Chinese-Americans even voluntarily flew to Memphis to visit and "guard for Ya Ya".
But Chinese experts flew to the US after Le Le's death and, along with their American counterparts, drew an initial conclusion that he had died of heart disease. They also checked on Ya Ya and determined she had a good appetite and stable weight, other than suffering hair loss due to a skin issue.
Ya Ya is scheduled to return to China by the end of this month, according to Chinese media reports.
On Tuesday, spokesperson of China's ministry of foreign affairs Wang Wenbin said Ya Ya was relatively stable other than the fur loss. "China will get Ya Ya home safely at the fastest speed," he added.
But this hasn't stopped other netizens from raising more questions - including about whether China could move beyond "panda diplomacy".
"When can we be strong enough that we won't need pandas to be our ambassadors," a comment liked by more than 100 times on Chinese platform Weibo reads.
"We can't send another panda to the US ever," another read
To what end? Well, popular support for backing Putin's play in Ukraine for starters, and then taking back Taiwan.
posted by jamjam at 9:30 PM on April 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Why China's police state has a precinct near you - "Recently arrested New York City Chinese 'police station' operators are the tip of a global iceberg of Beijing's overseas repression operations."
also btw...
also btw...
- @xinwenfan: "After spending nearly four months in detention for attending a Beijing rally last year against Covid restrictions, the young women have been released."
- @danwwang: "Pretty incredible that Chinese are fleeing to the US via the Mexican border. And: 'The United Nations refugee agency counted 116,868 Chinese seeking asylum around the world at a point measured in mid-2022, up from 15,362 at the end of 2012, the year Mr. Xi took power.'"
- Why aren't we taking every Chinese refugee we can? - "Let's be the City on a Hill again."
- 2023 is when the empires strike back - "Cold War 2 won't be decided by the opening moves."
- @KanekoaTheGreat: "Washington Post reporter @JoshRogin says it is unlikely that China will invade Taiwan until 2027, given their priorities of de-dollarizing their economy, producing 1,000 new nuclear weapons, and preparing their invasion forces for potential action."[1,2,3,4]
- @MoritzRudolf: "The promotion of Xi Jinping's Global Civilization Initiative (GCI) is in full swing."
They also checked on Ya Ya and determined she had a good appetite and stable weight, other than suffering hair loss due to a skin issue.
I wonder if that's the same thin skin afflicting Winnie the Pooh.
posted by flabdablet at 11:22 PM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I wonder if that's the same thin skin afflicting Winnie the Pooh.
posted by flabdablet at 11:22 PM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
> I'm not downplaying the multiple genocides against the Tibetan, Hakka, and Uighur people
Hakka being genocided? If your base for this claim is the same as for the genocide of other minorities, you might want to get some facts or reconsider the claims about genocide in China in general.
Source: I am Hakka.
posted by jeyoung at 1:25 AM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hakka being genocided? If your base for this claim is the same as for the genocide of other minorities, you might want to get some facts or reconsider the claims about genocide in China in general.
Source: I am Hakka.
posted by jeyoung at 1:25 AM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Empires and hegemonies fall when they attempt to take on too many powers at once.
Yes, exactly, and this isn't about America. The authoritarians have suffered serious brain damage from huffing the organic solvents they have been producing for the last 20 years, and both of them (Russia and China) think that they can take on the world.
We've seen that Putin's Russia is nothing but a gas station, manned by slaves, and the world isn't buying their gas anymore. The second best army in the world has been ground to dust, and that will never come back. Russia is done aside from threats and bluster - they will flail around and cause plenty of collateral damage but the nation, as a world power, is a dead man walking.
China has always been a Potemkin economic success. I saw it first hand, cha bu duo in everything - skyscrapers built out of sand and disintegrating, everyone phoning it in and pretending to work when the boss is watching. Appearances always trump reality. They are the world's most dependent nation in terms of global free trade but wanted to pretend they were a world hegemon while the USA kept the sea lanes open and trade flowing. Now with the semiconductor embargoes and other restrictions coming, their wondrous future of 5g is going to be seen for the bullshit it always has been.
The USA and Europe have nothing to worry about.
posted by Meatbomb at 1:26 AM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes, exactly, and this isn't about America. The authoritarians have suffered serious brain damage from huffing the organic solvents they have been producing for the last 20 years, and both of them (Russia and China) think that they can take on the world.
We've seen that Putin's Russia is nothing but a gas station, manned by slaves, and the world isn't buying their gas anymore. The second best army in the world has been ground to dust, and that will never come back. Russia is done aside from threats and bluster - they will flail around and cause plenty of collateral damage but the nation, as a world power, is a dead man walking.
China has always been a Potemkin economic success. I saw it first hand, cha bu duo in everything - skyscrapers built out of sand and disintegrating, everyone phoning it in and pretending to work when the boss is watching. Appearances always trump reality. They are the world's most dependent nation in terms of global free trade but wanted to pretend they were a world hegemon while the USA kept the sea lanes open and trade flowing. Now with the semiconductor embargoes and other restrictions coming, their wondrous future of 5g is going to be seen for the bullshit it always has been.
The USA and Europe have nothing to worry about.
posted by Meatbomb at 1:26 AM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Why aren't we taking every Chinese refugee we can?
posted by chavenet at 2:05 AM on April 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:05 AM on April 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
This is wild. And I honestly probably never would have seen this news without MeFi. Thanks, MeFi!
Old "news". Other than the arrests. From 7 months ago or 6 months ago. Takes time to build a case.
China has always been a Potemkin economic success.
And there is the Peter Zeihan view about demographics, energy and raw materials.
Still things for the US and Europe to worry about WRT China and others.
posted by rough ashlar at 2:55 AM on April 20, 2023
Old "news". Other than the arrests. From 7 months ago or 6 months ago. Takes time to build a case.
China has always been a Potemkin economic success.
And there is the Peter Zeihan view about demographics, energy and raw materials.
Still things for the US and Europe to worry about WRT China and others.
posted by rough ashlar at 2:55 AM on April 20, 2023
The USA and Europe have nothing to worry about
aside from the global fossil fuel industry's wildly successful ongoing effort to accelerate the current mass extinction event to the point where it vastly exceeds the speed and extent of any other in the planet's entire geological record. So let's all just agree to ignore all that and keep our neofeudalist foot flat to the floor like there's no tomorrow which, at this rate, there may well not be.
posted by flabdablet at 3:47 AM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
aside from the global fossil fuel industry's wildly successful ongoing effort to accelerate the current mass extinction event to the point where it vastly exceeds the speed and extent of any other in the planet's entire geological record. So let's all just agree to ignore all that and keep our neofeudalist foot flat to the floor like there's no tomorrow which, at this rate, there may well not be.
posted by flabdablet at 3:47 AM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
The USA and Europe have nothing to worry about.
Well, there's reasons why we're building chip fabs in the US again about as fast as we can and why the US and West has denied the EUV process node and tooling to China.
China really, really wants Taiwan and TSMC in particular. If China attempts to take Taiwan you can bet good money they're going to focus on trying to capture TSMC and the related support industry around TSMC as whole, undamaged and as functional as possible - if only for the IP, knowledge and tooling to replicate it elsewhere.
I don't think that this is an if, but a when. Chips run the whole world now, most of those chips are produced in Taiwan and PRC/China knows it.
posted by loquacious at 4:44 AM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, there's reasons why we're building chip fabs in the US again about as fast as we can and why the US and West has denied the EUV process node and tooling to China.
China really, really wants Taiwan and TSMC in particular. If China attempts to take Taiwan you can bet good money they're going to focus on trying to capture TSMC and the related support industry around TSMC as whole, undamaged and as functional as possible - if only for the IP, knowledge and tooling to replicate it elsewhere.
I don't think that this is an if, but a when. Chips run the whole world now, most of those chips are produced in Taiwan and PRC/China knows it.
posted by loquacious at 4:44 AM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I watch this Youtube channel China Uncensored which focuses on all things China....really all things CCP related. I learned about the police stations some weeks ago. It definitely give you a different take on what this country is up to in the world.
posted by diode at 6:15 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by diode at 6:15 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
The "overseas police stations" are a pretty clear violation of sovereignty, if only because they're unauthorized, and intimidation and harassment of people in other countries (possibly including killing their family members back home??) is very wrong.
Here in Canada there's also huge controversy right now about alleged interference by China in federal and local elections -- funding and influencing specific candidates, targeting voters with propaganda, etc. This is a very big deal, although it's not clear it affected election outcomes. Unfortunately it has become a partisan issue: Trudeau has been slow to respond, which looks like defensiveness, and Poilievre's Conservatives are using it as a stick to beat the Liberals with.
This is happening in the context of a big downturn in Canada-China relations over the past few years (hostile rhetoric, trade bans, retaliatory arrests). There's also been a huge increase in anti-Asian racism in Canada since the start of the pandemic, and there's a negative feedback loop between that and the New Cold War stuff, which is especially scary when fascism is on the rise.
With all of that context, and all of the FUD from all sides on this subject, I find it really hard to tell how different China's foreign interference is from what other countries do. Like, it's clear that this stuff is part of a new and aggressive imperialist strategy. At the same time, some of it seems like stuff we would take for granted if it was being done by allies or via proper channels, or if it was happening in non-Western countries. The interference needs to stop, but we shouldn't let it be exploited to escalate tensions, either.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 10:35 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here in Canada there's also huge controversy right now about alleged interference by China in federal and local elections -- funding and influencing specific candidates, targeting voters with propaganda, etc. This is a very big deal, although it's not clear it affected election outcomes. Unfortunately it has become a partisan issue: Trudeau has been slow to respond, which looks like defensiveness, and Poilievre's Conservatives are using it as a stick to beat the Liberals with.
This is happening in the context of a big downturn in Canada-China relations over the past few years (hostile rhetoric, trade bans, retaliatory arrests). There's also been a huge increase in anti-Asian racism in Canada since the start of the pandemic, and there's a negative feedback loop between that and the New Cold War stuff, which is especially scary when fascism is on the rise.
With all of that context, and all of the FUD from all sides on this subject, I find it really hard to tell how different China's foreign interference is from what other countries do. Like, it's clear that this stuff is part of a new and aggressive imperialist strategy. At the same time, some of it seems like stuff we would take for granted if it was being done by allies or via proper channels, or if it was happening in non-Western countries. The interference needs to stop, but we shouldn't let it be exploited to escalate tensions, either.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 10:35 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
International movement of people is a strange and complex business. Like the way the individual US states negotiate treaties with other countries over things like reciprocal driver's licence acceptance. It all deeply weird and you won't really appreciate how weird until you've emigrated/immigrated a few times.
The United States doesn't really do law enforcement on other countries' soils but it does do tax collection from US citizens regardless of where they live and work.
posted by srboisvert at 12:44 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
The United States doesn't really do law enforcement on other countries' soils but it does do tax collection from US citizens regardless of where they live and work.
posted by srboisvert at 12:44 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
The both-sidesism here is really strong, and unpleasant.
We can acknowledge that the US does a lot of stuff as a state that we'd rather it didn't, or in ways we don't approve of, but that has basically fuck-all to do with what China is currently doing. This is not about the US.
Under Xi, China is very aggressively leveraging its economic power in ways that are, to put it lightly, not particularly consistent with longstanding international norms. Setting up extraterritorial police stations in order to keep tabs on, and control the behavior of, your own citizens when abroad is… not something that most nations would consider acceptable. (There are accepted ways to police your citizens while they're on holiday, which are in fact very much appreciated by other countries: stuff like participating in INTERPOL, or having extradition treaties.) The Chinese obviously know this, and decided to do it anyway.
Flying a very large spy balloon over another country's territory at low altitude, such that it could be easily seen by the naked eye, is also not something that most nations would consider a good idea. And the Chinese did it anyway. (Again, as with the police stations: do other nations have intelligence-gathering apparatus that operate extraterritorially? Of course. But they are typically not that bald-faced.) It's not the sort of thing you do if you care about maintaining a relationship based on anything but the exercise of raw power.
The Xi government seems to be intentionally testing the limits of what they can get away with, under the assumption that the rest of the world is too dependent on Chinese labor and industry to do anything significant in return. In the short run at least, they are probably correct.
But what concerns me—not as an American but more just as someone who lives on the planet and is just one more blade of grass for the proverbial elephants to step on—is that it doesn't seem like a great long-term strategy. And that does not bode well for global stability over the next several decades. It suggests that Xi might regard Chinese economic power as having an expiration date, and therefore it's time to "use it or lose it".
If that attitude extends beyond setting up unofficially-official police stations and to something more significant, like invading Taiwan, that would be extremely destabilizing, to put it mildly.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:54 PM on April 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
We can acknowledge that the US does a lot of stuff as a state that we'd rather it didn't, or in ways we don't approve of, but that has basically fuck-all to do with what China is currently doing. This is not about the US.
Under Xi, China is very aggressively leveraging its economic power in ways that are, to put it lightly, not particularly consistent with longstanding international norms. Setting up extraterritorial police stations in order to keep tabs on, and control the behavior of, your own citizens when abroad is… not something that most nations would consider acceptable. (There are accepted ways to police your citizens while they're on holiday, which are in fact very much appreciated by other countries: stuff like participating in INTERPOL, or having extradition treaties.) The Chinese obviously know this, and decided to do it anyway.
Flying a very large spy balloon over another country's territory at low altitude, such that it could be easily seen by the naked eye, is also not something that most nations would consider a good idea. And the Chinese did it anyway. (Again, as with the police stations: do other nations have intelligence-gathering apparatus that operate extraterritorially? Of course. But they are typically not that bald-faced.) It's not the sort of thing you do if you care about maintaining a relationship based on anything but the exercise of raw power.
The Xi government seems to be intentionally testing the limits of what they can get away with, under the assumption that the rest of the world is too dependent on Chinese labor and industry to do anything significant in return. In the short run at least, they are probably correct.
But what concerns me—not as an American but more just as someone who lives on the planet and is just one more blade of grass for the proverbial elephants to step on—is that it doesn't seem like a great long-term strategy. And that does not bode well for global stability over the next several decades. It suggests that Xi might regard Chinese economic power as having an expiration date, and therefore it's time to "use it or lose it".
If that attitude extends beyond setting up unofficially-official police stations and to something more significant, like invading Taiwan, that would be extremely destabilizing, to put it mildly.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:54 PM on April 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
One of the lessons of the first Cold War was that there were folks on both sides who had structural incentives to be belligerent. The Cold War was at its most dangerous when those folks were allowed to escalate tensions -- when the response to the genuinely bad shit the other guys were doing was alarmism, paranoia, and warmongering instead of détente. It would be real nice if we could protect our communities from imperialist meddling without putting the hawks back in charge.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 8:01 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Gerald Bostock at 8:01 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wish you all could check your Sinophobia and xenophobia and the fact that we shouldn't be receiving news from NYT uncritically, especially after how many anti-trans articles they have put out. Here is a Twitter thread fact checking this, the first post? "The "overseas Chinese secret police station" in NYC the media has been scaremongering about? It's a community service center that helps Chinese immigrants with renewing driver’s licenses and filling out other necessary forms."
https://twitter.com/catcontentonly/status/1652455805168353280
posted by yueliang at 7:48 PM on April 29, 2023
https://twitter.com/catcontentonly/status/1652455805168353280
posted by yueliang at 7:48 PM on April 29, 2023
Bullshit. This is not "one article from the NYT", this is a long term and global problem. By casting aspersions on one news source you cannot make this story go away yueliang.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:55 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 12:55 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
More's the pity.
I recall much the same sentiment being in the air as the US papers started beating the war drums over Saddam Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction.
Yes, Pooh is a prick. But the idea that he has a worse grasp of how the world's second most populous nation needs to behave in the face of the climate emergency than the Empire does is simply not credible.
When it comes to discussing the stances of great powers, for the time being it unavoidably is about the US - a white supremacist nation that plays host to the world's most profitable and least principled arms dealers and extractive industries and remains the greatest threat to world peace and ecological sustainability that has ever existed. No amount of whatabouting over China's assorted repressions is about to change that.
As for PRC/ROC tensions: the game of "I'm not touching you" that the US likes to play with that whole situation is frankly just sickening.
posted by flabdablet at 5:49 AM on April 30, 2023
I recall much the same sentiment being in the air as the US papers started beating the war drums over Saddam Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction.
Yes, Pooh is a prick. But the idea that he has a worse grasp of how the world's second most populous nation needs to behave in the face of the climate emergency than the Empire does is simply not credible.
When it comes to discussing the stances of great powers, for the time being it unavoidably is about the US - a white supremacist nation that plays host to the world's most profitable and least principled arms dealers and extractive industries and remains the greatest threat to world peace and ecological sustainability that has ever existed. No amount of whatabouting over China's assorted repressions is about to change that.
As for PRC/ROC tensions: the game of "I'm not touching you" that the US likes to play with that whole situation is frankly just sickening.
posted by flabdablet at 5:49 AM on April 30, 2023
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posted by hippybear at 1:43 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]