Moderate amounts of ice cream might be good for diabetes

April 24, 2023 8:00 AM

Half a cup a day, or is there something wrong with the study? "Could the idea that ice cream is metabolically protective be true? It would be pretty bonkers. Still, there are at least a few points in its favor. For one, ice cream’s glycemic index, a measure of how rapidly a food boosts blood sugar, is lower than that of brown rice. [...holy shit. --S.] “There’s this perception that ice cream is unhealthy, but it’s got fat, it’s got protein, it’s got vitamins. It’s better for you than bread,” Mozaffarian said. “Given how horrible the American diet is, it’s very possible that if somebody eats ice cream and eats less starch … it could actually protect against diabetes.”

Archive for the Atlantic article

Sources:

2018 Sep 07: Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Doctor of Science Dissertation: "Dairy Products and Cardiometabolic Health Outcomes" by Andres V. Ardisson Korat, advisor Frank B.Hu.

2016 Feb 24: The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition: "Consumption of dairy foods and diabetes incidence: a dose-response meta-analysis of observational studies" by Lieke Gijsbers, Eric L Ding [wait, that Eric L. (Feigl-) Ding? -- S.] et al.:

2002 April 24: JAMA (journal): "Dairy Consumption, Obesity, and the Insulin Resistance Syndrome in Young Adults: The CARDIA Study." by Pereira MA, Jacobs, Jr DR, et al. doi:10.1001/jama.287.16.2081 (Table 5!):

posted by Nancy Lebovitz (56 comments total)

It is a rare turn of events to discover that 10 year old me was right about something.
posted by mhoye at 8:03 AM on April 24, 2023 [29 favorites]

The oncology dietician my wife saw was a big fan of ice cream. Frozen stuff is generally better for nausea too.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:07 AM on April 24, 2023 [10 favorites]

I can't help but suspect that this will be taken back, like "a bit of wine is good for you" was.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:09 AM on April 24, 2023 [19 favorites]

I accept this conclusion without the slightest doubt or skepticism, and will consider half a cup a day to be my new minimum.
posted by allegedly at 8:16 AM on April 24, 2023 [40 favorites]

Great article. My takeaway was not that ice cream is good for you, though it's not impossible and it is probably not be as bad as is generally thought. Rather, if these studies show that ice cream is good for you, we shouldn't put too much stock in the other stuff the studies endorse.

My nutrition guru is food writer Tamar Haspel, who concludes: "The reason we know so little about what to eat despite decades of research is that our tools are woefully inadequate. ... In the two decades I’ve been writing about nutrition, my confidence in what we know about food and health has eroded... The important question — what are we supposed to eat already?! — is still on the table, and I have a suggestion. Let’s give up on evidence-based eating. ... Instead, let’s acknowledge the uncertainty and eat to hedge against what we don’t know. We’ve got two excellent hedges: variety and foods with nutrients intact (which describes such diets as the Mediterranean, touted by researchers). If you severely limit your foods (vegan, keto), you might miss out on something. Ditto if you eat foods with little nutritional value (sugar, refined grains). Oh, and pay attention to the two things we can say with certainty: Keep your weight down, and exercise."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:16 AM on April 24, 2023 [14 favorites]

To be clear, none of the experts interviewed for this article is inclined to believe that the ice-cream effect is real

On the other hand, half a cup is 4 ounces, while a single-serving thing of Haagen-Dazs is 3.6. Surely that's not a coincidence.
posted by box at 8:20 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]

my motivated-reasoning has kicked in.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:21 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

I note that they're talking a half-cup a day. Sounds like an "everything-in-moderation" thing, no? Because a single-serving thing of Haagen-Dazs is 3.6 ounces, but let's be real, most of us treat "one full pint of Ben & Jerry's" as a "single serving". I've been slowly training myself to only eat half a pint at a time.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:27 AM on April 24, 2023 [15 favorites]

Hang on, I need to show this to my wife to settle a 20 year argument stemming from me feeding the kids ice cream for breakfast that one time.
posted by SunSnork at 8:31 AM on April 24, 2023 [20 favorites]

EmpressCallipygos, you are an inspiration.
posted by scratch at 8:32 AM on April 24, 2023

Huh. This has been whispered advice among pregnant women with gestational diabetes for at least a few years - specifically that a little ice cream before bed lowers AM fasting numbers for some people. My GDM support group specifically recommended Snickers ice cream bars as being a relatively high protein option...when our dietitian wasn't in the room.

It didn't work for everyone, none of these things do. I didn't have trouble with my fasting numbers so I didn't get too into ice cream as a solution. But it's definitely a thing that some people who are optimizing ONLY for blood sugar metrics have noticed. But it's not surprising that a population that's in a "weight gain is not a problem we care about, but high blood glucose is" was the population to notice this.

I sometimes crave a little ice cream after a hard workout and I usually just go with it. I figure it makes me more likely to exercise next time.
posted by potrzebie at 8:34 AM on April 24, 2023 [13 favorites]

I eat A LOT of ice cream, especially since I quit drinking. If I have to get an exorbitant number of calories somewhere, I prefer ice cream.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:38 AM on April 24, 2023 [11 favorites]

did any of the studies/meta control for lactose intolerance? the fact that ice cream and many other dairy products has me and more than half the population blasting ass for hours afterwards, acting like a laxative, hurtling all foods ingested prior through the digestive tract well before those nutrients/starches can be properly absorbed feels like it might have some effect here
posted by paimapi at 8:38 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

The most recent "Maintenance Phase" podcast episode, titled "The Trouble With Sugar," discusses the glycemic index. And honestly, it sounds like a tool that requires so much nuance to use & understand that just seeing the name made me almost flinch. :7)

Aubrey: You nailed it. The glycemic index is also where we get these very internety kind of claims that potatoes are worse for you than a Snickers bar or an apple is worse for you than ice cream. Those are all just people parroting out results from the glycemic index, which really does rank ice cream as being a lower glycemic choice than an apple. It really does rank carrots as having more sugar than table sugar.

Michael: Is that because the ice cream has fat mixed with sugar, and so it slows down how much it hits your body?

Aubrey: You’re skipping ahead, Michael. Could you stop skipping ahead?

posted by wenestvedt at 8:45 AM on April 24, 2023 [19 favorites]

Dairy: it's better than eating red meat but way worse than consuming neither

"replacing one serving of total dairy products with one serving of nuts was associated with a 12% risk reduction of CVD."

"replacing 5% of calories from dairy fat with the equivalent energy from other sources of animal fat or carbohydrate from refined grains was associated with a 14% and a 4% increased risk of T2D, respectively. Conversely, a 5% calorie substitution of carbohydrate from whole grains was associated with 7% lower risk of T2D."
posted by sophrontic at 8:55 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

chocolate milk is a good recovery drink for cyclists, too?
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:00 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

It didn't work for everyone, none of these things do.

Agreed. I've found the most reliable way to find out how food effects my blood sugar is to eat it and watch what happens to my blood sugar. Counting carbs has proved to have some surprising exceptions in both directions.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:17 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

To repeat what I wrote in the Tucker Carlson thread: "Wow. This is unexpected and utterly delightful news."
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:31 AM on April 24, 2023 [15 favorites]

My five-year-old will be delighted.
posted by madcaptenor at 9:38 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Well, then. I didn't need an excuse or reason to return to the Iowa State Fair in Des Moines, but now I have one.
posted by Wordshore at 9:46 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

Nothing more worthless than a food study.
posted by pthomas745 at 9:49 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]

I'm not at all surprised by this. I've spent literally decades struggling with my weight an the ONLY THING that has helped at all is being extremely rigorous with the glycemic index foods, and specifically fighting hard to make sure my blood sugar remains below 130 at all times (not just fasting, not just 2 hours after eating, but literally at all times, which means eating basically what is sometimes called a Keto diet). Interestingly, small servings if ice cream have never been an issue for me, and remain one of my go-to treats.

I'm certain that I'll get many replies here that say "oh calorie control" or "you're wrong about your own experience" blah blah blah -- but I don't really care. I know this is what works for me, and its just reinforced for me how little dieticians seem to understand about how metabolism works.
posted by anastasiav at 10:16 AM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]

I can't help but suspect that this will be taken back, like "a bit of wine is good for you" was.

I'm never going to fully believe either side of "red wine is good/bad for you" after hearing a scientist in an adjacent department give a presentation on resveratrol. They had cell models, they had blood testing, and nothing ever came of either of those things.

He got actually shouty when I pointed out that the he wasn't testing blood, he was testing red-blood-cell-free serum. So he was looking for an amphipathic-but-really-mostly-not-water-soluble-and-actually-dissolved-by-alcohol molecule (amphipathic can be dissolved in water and organic solutions) after removing the bulk of non-polar (not water) spaces that the molecule could have dissolved into (red blood cell lipid membranes).

For cell models? This is a minor effect, seen at a population scale, over the life time of individuals, when comparing Mediterranean Europe to the US (assuming this effect was reproduced and hasn't been disproven since I last looked at a paper on it 7 years ago). No shit you don't see an effect in cells.

All that being said, I do enjoy a glass of red.
posted by Slackermagee at 10:18 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

I hope an immoderate amount is even better
posted by aubilenon at 10:23 AM on April 24, 2023 [17 favorites]

So how did the Harvard team explain away the ice-cream finding? The theory went like this: Maybe some of the people in the study had developed health problems, such as high blood pressure or elevated cholesterol, and began avoiding ice cream on doctors’ orders (or of their own volition). Meanwhile, people who didn’t have those health problems would have had less reason to give up their cookies and cream. In that scenario, it wouldn’t be that ice cream prevented diabetes, but that being at risk of developing diabetes caused people to not eat ice cream. Epidemiologists call that “reverse causation.”

And maybe those who feel guilty about eating ice cream aren't reporting it. So they get diabetes, and "didn't" eat ice cream. Double checking the lies of participants wouldn't find it. I'll just go ahead and suggest that any science based on self-shaming is a sham, including church attendance, charitable donations, exercise, alcohol intake, etc.
posted by Brian B. at 10:23 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

And maybe those who feel guilty about eating ice cream aren't reporting it.

Absolutely possible, as the article notes:

Pereira, for example, pointed out that people aren’t always truthful when they’re quizzed on what they eat. His 2002 study found that overweight and obese people reported eating fewer dairy-based desserts than other people. “I don’t believe that the heavier people consume less desserts,” he said. “I believe they underreport more.” If that’s true, then admitting to eating ice cream might correlate with metabolic health—and the ice-cream effect would be, in its way, a marker of fat stigma in America.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:50 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]

The oncology dietician my wife saw was a big fan of ice cream. Frozen stuff is generally better for nausea too.

Was it on the Blue that I saw that this study regarding ice cream being better than ice chips during chemotherapy? In anycase, I am a firm believer that there is nothing ice cream can't do - just like my grandmothers told me. So in short - listen to grandmothers in general and have ice cream for breakfast.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:53 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

Was it on the Blue that I saw that this study regarding ice cream being better than ice chips during chemotherapy?

Hmm. Curiously, I just recently heard about scalp cooling caps that prevent hair loss during chemotherapy, and the article mentions that people who consume whole milk don't seem to gain the same benefits, so I wonder if temperature is a factor in play here as well.
posted by mhoye at 11:10 AM on April 24, 2023

From the second article regarding the authors:

SSS-M previously received funding from Global Dairy Platform, Dairy Research Institute, and Dairy Australia for projects related to dairy effects on lipoproteins and mortality; JMG previously received funding from the Global Dairy Platform and Dutch Dairy Association for projects related to dairy and cardiovascular diseases; and ELD previously consulted for the Dairy Research Institute.
posted by antinomia at 11:14 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

My one strong ice-cream opinion is that there's never a good reason to eat the cheap stuff, even if it means going without. I'm not a coffee drinker, but the rise of ubiquitous quality ice-cream is not unlike the rise of ubiquitous quality coffee. Thank the gods.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:19 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]

chocolate milk is a good recovery drink for cyclists,

It's a good recovery drink for just about any kind of athletic training. There isn't anything magic about it, anything with a similar mix of calorie sources will work about the same.

Which means, of course, that there are hundreds of young powerlifters on Instagram that will panic if they don't get their glass of chocolate milk within an hour of them putting down their last weight.

Recovery is important and youth is wasted on the young, is my message.
posted by VTX at 11:22 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

The oncology dietician my wife saw was a big fan of ice cream. Frozen stuff is generally better for nausea too.

When I was working as a Registered Dietitian at a cancer center, one of our main challenges was preventing and mitigating cachexia (severe unintended weight loss) in a population that has to deal with taste changes (because of chemo), fatigue, and sometimes damage to the mouth, esophagus, etc., from radiation therapy. Liquid calories are great for this because no matter how full you are, you can always pack in a few more if they're in liquid form, so my preferred strategy was to have patients have smoothies immediately after each meal (so they could get a full meal of real food in first, and the smoothie wouldn't interfere with hunger for the next meal). I could teach them how to include healthy protein and fat from things like tofu, peanut butter, etc., to make it a nice, balanced, addition to their meal. But in reality the patient often doesn't have the time, energy, or help to prepare something like that.. so ice cream can do the trick of just getting those calories in if the better choice isn't going to happen.

But, long story short, ice cream is probably being suggested by oncology dietitians specifically because it helps you gain weight easily.
posted by antinomia at 11:27 AM on April 24, 2023 [12 favorites]

To repeat what I wrote in the Tucker Carlson thread: "Wow. This is unexpected and utterly delightful news."

Dark Brandon is on a rampage!
posted by Reyturner at 12:08 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

The thing is that there are multiple different ways of getting scientific knowledge about nutrition

1. Randomized controlled trials in humans: actually get one group to do X, a control group to not, look at differences like what happens to cholesterol and blood sugar
2. Randomized controlled trials in animals
3. Physical study of mechanisms: look at what's actually going on in the body
4. Theoretical study of mechanisms: what might be going on in the body
5. Epidemiological studies: look at the statistics for large groups of people

Epidemiological studies are hard. You can get all kinds of unexpected correlations and confounding factors leading to things like the smokers paradox.

Scientists tend to be confident about results that are backed up by multiple different methods. Every animal eats so our metabolisms have a lot in common: you can give a fruit fly diabetes by feeding it sugar or fat. That gives scientists confidence when epidemiological studies show similar results in humans.

So when scientist see a weird epidemiological result, like wine or ice cream or cigarettes seeming healthy, but there's no observational evidence or experimental evidence, they tend to be skeptical or noncommital about it. It's not that they're being unscientific: there's more to science than crunching statistics.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:42 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

Strongly recommend folks read the section about the glycemic index in the transcript of the podcast wenestvedt linked above (CTRL-F for "Is this the glycemic index section?"). They discuss five problems with the index that have me rolling my eyes at the implication in the claim that "ice cream’s glycemic index, a measure of how rapidly a food boosts blood sugar, is lower than that of brown rice." The origin story of the glycemic index is interesting:

Aubrey: So, just to get into the next level of detail with the glycemic index, it's basically a scale that is plotted from 0 to 100. The guy who created the glycemic index is a Welsh physician and 6th generation doctor named David Jenkins. He went to Oxford. He's invested into the Order of Canada for his contributions as a nutrition scientist. Here is the study design for coming up with the initial glycemic index. This is published for the first time in 1981. They have volunteers fast for 12 hours, as you do with fasting blood work. He would then feed a group of volunteers, one food on its own, just potato or just strawberries or just milk. And then two hours later, he would measure their blood sugar to see how that food had impacted their blood sugar. This is where we get to the first problem with this study. Would you like to guess how big the groups of volunteers were for each of these foods?

Michael: Oh, is it two people and one's, like, his cousin or something?

Aubrey: 5 to 10 people.

So's this:

Aubrey: People also don't usually fast for 12 hours and then only eat one food. This is like dry toast without jam. It's popcorn without butter. And then it's not eating anything else for two hours. So, when you eat potatoes alone, your blood sugar does one thing. When you eat potatoes with a steak, the fat and the protein in that steak slow down your digestion and they flatten the curve of the glycemic index. So, potatoes will have less of an effect, if you are eating them with something with a lot of fat, a lot of fiber, some protein, whatever. Same thing is true, if you put some avocado on some toast. Avocado has a ton of fat and fiber in it,, both of which slow down digestion and change the impact, the glycemic impact of the bread.

Michael: So, basically, you can't really say that potatoes have 35.7 glycemic index because it depends on what you're eating them with and what you've eaten before and how much you're eating, etc.

Aubrey: Yes, and that is the first problem of five problems with the glycemic index that I have listed out here.

Other problems are individual variations in food depending on what it's eaten with (or in the case of something like a banana, how ripe it is when it's eaten), enormous variation between individual responses to the same food, and more. Worth reading that section in full.
posted by mediareport at 12:53 PM on April 24, 2023 [13 favorites]

"American diet is so shit that ice cream is the healthiest choice some people will make"
posted by srboisvert at 1:33 PM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]

MeFi: I need to show this to my wife to settle a 20 year argument
posted by fairmettle at 1:34 PM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]

Yeah, I didn't want to paste in the whole transcript, but I was a little...crestfallen when I heard a familiar statistic being taken down like that. (Same for their beat-down of BMI -- and frequent re-beatings -- too.)
posted by wenestvedt at 1:35 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

My grandmother, who recently passed away at the age of 104, made a point of attributing her advanced age and relative good health to the fact that not a day went by without her enjoying a serving of ice cream. Her brother made it to 105 on a similar diet.

Obviously one shouldn't draw any conclusions from these circumstances, but I will do my best to carry forward this particular family tradition.
posted by theory at 1:39 PM on April 24, 2023 [12 favorites]

> Oh, and pay attention to the two things we can say with certainty: Keep your weight down, and exercise

And even "keep your weight down," we can't say with certainty.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:08 PM on April 24, 2023 [11 favorites]

This is welcome news. More for all!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 2:25 PM on April 24, 2023 [11 favorites]

It's almost, almost like all this diet and nutrition stuff is complicated, nuanced, and diverse in how it operates in various people under various circumstances.

(Now pre-flinching for Friday afternoon's news that this study has not only milkshake-ducked, but was actually paid for BY Milkshake Duck Foods Inc.)
posted by Lyn Never at 2:59 PM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]

I've been slowly training myself to only eat half a pint at a time.

An ice cream pint carton is essentially a paper cup, so it looks like you’re right on the money.
posted by slogger at 3:59 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

His 2002 study found that overweight and obese people reported eating fewer dairy-based desserts than other people. “I don’t believe that the heavier people consume less desserts,” he said. “I believe they underreport more.”

Well I presume his next study will be better designed to produce the results he knows must be true.
posted by fleacircus at 4:06 PM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]

Well I presume his next study will be better designed to produce the results he knows must be true.

Or he encountered someone who pointed out he had uncovered an addictive pattern: Compulsive behaviors are often unconscious and perhaps mindless choices.

This might be balancing news for some to learn that those new restrictive guidelines on drinking were in part formed by alcoholics massively under-reporting, thereby raising the healthy limit when adjusted for this fact.
posted by Brian B. at 4:43 PM on April 24, 2023

Well I presume his next study will be better designed to produce the results he knows must be true.

Exactly. "Could my extremely broad assumptions about fat people be wrong? No, no, they're just lying."
posted by Emmy Rae at 5:28 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

Look, we all know ice cream isn't good for you. This (laughable) study made an error in not identifying the real nutritive element in ice cream: cookie dough.

Those of us who know have already eliminated the worthless conveying medium and have 4 oz of dough every day, sliced fresh off the log just before bedtime.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 7:56 PM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]

its just reinforced for me how little dieticians seem to understand about how metabolism works.

I have some sympathy for them. The entire setup seems to be constructed from quirks.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:38 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

I WANT TO BELIEVE
posted by blue shadows at 9:25 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

Woody Allen (of all people) called it, fully a half century ago now:
"Hot fudge was thought to be unhealthy - the precise opposite of what we now know to be true"
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 11:04 PM on April 24, 2023

Now that legislation has reined in the price of insulin I may consider adding a lil ice cream to my after swim or yardwork recovery. Make that CHOCOLATE ice cream!
posted by a humble nudibranch at 11:25 PM on April 24, 2023

There's been some research with doubly labelled water, water where some hydrogen is replaced by a different isotope, which lets scientists compare more accurately what people report they're eating against what they actually eat.

Nutrition scientists have put enormous effort into trying to evaluate the magnitude of reporting errors. They find that people underestimate their true calorie intake by astonishing percentages, typically 30 percent, with a range of 10 to 45 percent depending on such factors as age, sex, body composition, and socioeconomic status. Underreporting of food -- and therefore calorie intake -- increases with age and is greater among women, people who are overweight, and those of low education and income status. People also tend to exaggerate intake of foods they think are supposed to be good for health.

Less scientific, but more entertaining: there was a UK TV show called Secret Eaters where they took people who claimed they couldn't lose weight despite not eating much, then followed them with detectives and hidden cameras to prove what they were actually eating. The interesting thing is that after the first series everyone taking part knew this was going to happen, and they were still utterly shocked by the reveals. People deeply and sincerely believe that they're eating much less than they do.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:23 AM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]

I actually sincerely believe the study. I’ve been eating a lot better over the past year (lightly low carb) , and what I’ve found is that high fat foods tend to be better sugars for me and also tend to leave me feeling more full after. And also, having a half cup of high quality ice cream (which tends to be higher fat and lower sugar) makes me feel less like I’m dieting, which means my body doesn’t feel a need to eat everything in sight because it thinks it’s starving.
posted by corb at 2:05 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

They find that people underestimate their true calorie intake by astonishing percentages, typically 30 percent, with a range of 10 to 45 percent depending on such factors as age, sex, body composition, and socioeconomic status.

Wow, I wonder why people with minimal social power might try to cover up behaviors that are considered culturally unacceptable? I’m sure it’s not because the world is incredibly cruel about judging the choices of fat people. I’m sure it’s not because many old, poor, fat women have had to survive by erasing themselves to feel safe around other people. /s

The wellness industry pushes the idea that there is One True Way to eat that will save you from all suffering, and if you just follow their rules—which change constantly and of course, that has nothing to do with keeping a consumer base off-balance—you’ll be fine. The reality is that the effects of food are different for every person and human bodies are quite resilient in terms of “imperfect” diets. But that idea doesn’t sell keto bowls and kombucha very well, so here we are.
posted by corey flood at 7:08 AM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]

This is one of those factoids that is true every other day of the week, and twice on Sundaes.
posted by Chitownfats at 10:50 AM on April 25, 2023 [12 favorites]

Don't forget that most nutrition studies rely on garbage information. The main source of data is food frequency questionnaires. Intellectually I knew they were pretty unreliable, but then I took part in a study that used one:

"Over the past year, how often have you eaten red meat?"
"What was your typical portion size?"

Seriously? I couldn't accurately remember what I ate and what my portion sizes were for the past week. I made the best guesses I could, but even I didn't believe my answers had anything more than a tenuous connection to reality.
posted by fogovonslack at 11:09 AM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]