Anime is as imaginative as ever. It’s also a lot bleaker...
May 2, 2023 4:55 AM Subscribe
Anime Confronts a New Apocalypse by Matt Alt [The New Yorker] Back in the day, manga was hopeful and positive. Now? Lots of the biggest players are dark and cynical. Alt's piece examines how and why recent times have changed their outlook.
““We’re off to outer space, we’re leaving mother Earth, to save the human race,” the opening lines of the theme song to “Yamato” and “Star Blazers” went, but modern audiences seem more interested in escapes into inner space and saving themselves. Part of this is simply due to changing tastes and styles, inevitable in any youth-oriented medium, and part to how even the most radical subcultures inevitably get co-opted—witness how hip-hop and punk, so edgy and threatening in the eighties, morphed into mainstream pop. Days after Matsumoto’s death, a column about the artist expressed concern about how “cold and cynical many recent anime seem to be.” But is this a criticism of the current crop of animators and fans—or a reflection of Japanese society itself?”
Evangelion (my anime group watched it a year or so ago, I'd never previously seen it) was a narrative on how horrible a dad can be in pursuit of... things. I mean, yeah, it was about other stuff, but we (middle-aged ladies, all) read it as a narrative of Seriously, Worst Sports Dad Ever. I know it's not about that. I know. But one of the most fun things about any media is the interaction between the media and the audience. And for us, yeah. Worst Sports Dad Ever.
posted by which_chick at 6:00 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by which_chick at 6:00 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Shepherd, I think you're conflating a few things, namely "darkness" and violence/"mature" content. The point of the article isn't that anime is now more violent or features more mature themes than it did, it always has, but that the author feels that modern anime and manga has taken a turn towards fatalism, despair, and a resulting drive towards extreme escapism. (Witness, e.g., the difference between the current isekai trend and older "other world" anime). All of those shows you listed, while featuring varying degrees of violent and mature content, are ultimately quite hopeful and optimistic in their outlook and message (well, kind of, in Gantz's case, but Gantz is Gantz).
And I know it's not germane to the FPP, but responding to your point about American comics, the dark period of American comics wasn't the late 80-early 90s but rather the early 2000s. Writers like Grant Morrison have noted that in many ways the late 80-early 90s were more akin to the Silver Age's big, bombastic goofiness in contrast to the more grounded, "realistic" bent of cape comics in the late 70s and early-mid 80s. Writers of the late 80s-early 90s did take the wrong lesson from Watchmen and incorporated violence and sex into their comics, but they were still brightly-colored people fighting space robots and supervillains. The early 2000s saw a turn back towards "realism" but combined with that violent edge, making the comics of that era very ugly. Ugly aesthetically because there was a conscious rejection of the old colorful spandex in favor of black tacticool costumes, but also in content because now the characters were facing "real" issues like abuse and rape, culminating perhaps most infamously in 2004's Identity Crisis event from DC. I am, of course, referring only to superhero comics from the "Big Two" since that's what your comment touched on, other comics of that period were vastly different.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:36 AM on May 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
And I know it's not germane to the FPP, but responding to your point about American comics, the dark period of American comics wasn't the late 80-early 90s but rather the early 2000s. Writers like Grant Morrison have noted that in many ways the late 80-early 90s were more akin to the Silver Age's big, bombastic goofiness in contrast to the more grounded, "realistic" bent of cape comics in the late 70s and early-mid 80s. Writers of the late 80s-early 90s did take the wrong lesson from Watchmen and incorporated violence and sex into their comics, but they were still brightly-colored people fighting space robots and supervillains. The early 2000s saw a turn back towards "realism" but combined with that violent edge, making the comics of that era very ugly. Ugly aesthetically because there was a conscious rejection of the old colorful spandex in favor of black tacticool costumes, but also in content because now the characters were facing "real" issues like abuse and rape, culminating perhaps most infamously in 2004's Identity Crisis event from DC. I am, of course, referring only to superhero comics from the "Big Two" since that's what your comment touched on, other comics of that period were vastly different.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:36 AM on May 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure I agree with this article. the most popular animes at the moment seem to me as being endlessly hopeful - My Hero Academia? Deku is optimistic to a point of him being a one-sided character. Luffy from One Piece? Monster #8? I mean, if you look at the lineup for the most popular Shonen Jump series of the past few, manga/animes like Spy x Family, Demon Slayer, Dr. Stone, Mashle, and breakout series outside of that like One-Punch Man, Mob Psycho, Dorohedoro, or seinen like Vinland Saga, Dungeon Meshi, Sousou no Frieren, To Your Eternity, Made in Abyss, these all had dark moments, like really dark, seemingly impossible-to-overcome places that the plot/characters went to during the rising action but, at least to me, it never seemed like it would go to that place of fatalism. there were sad, bittersweet endings, reflections on what it means to exist, etc but hopelessness? cynicism about human nature? nah
even Chainsaw Man is relentlessly, absurdly hopeful - the latest chapter had Denji exclaim about how he has great hope for the future because he's looking forward to having sex for the first time and that this drives him relentlessly forward just like he was driven by getting out of debt, touching boobs, getting his first kiss, etc. it's a deconstruction of shonen / gag manga tropes, bildungsromans, and masculinity paired with the absurdity of existentialism but it's not hopeless
if there's any newly found, more popular cynicism that I see in manga it's towards institutions, capitalism, and technology as the savior of humankind but even these themes were found in anime/manga from the 80s, as easily traceable to huge cultural monoliths in the space like Akira or in the 90s/00s to the works of Satoshi Kon, or in Gundam's persistent decrying of war or to Patlabor's criticisms of the same in the domestic lens
Jujutsu Kaisen and Chainsaw Man are refreshing in this regard - there's no worshipping of older generations, of tradition, but rather there's a confrontation of a distorted white washed history and a need to rationally engage with outdated, outmoded practices that have existed for centuries. like Chainsaw Man's whole thing is that he's this randomly powerful Devil that somehow has the ability to erase the primal fears that have existed since forever? and Satoru Gojo's whole character is literally him disrespecting and refuting the demands of the elderly rulers of the sorcerer world. is that cynicism? or is that the younger generations of Japan finally speaking out against the even more insipid, regressive gerontocracy of Japanese politics?
I feel like the author of this article is attempting to map Western anxieties about climate change, gun violence, etc to Japanese cultural products and I really just don't see it fitting. Japanese anime/manga is, to me, almost singularly focused on how the current political landscape of crony capitalism mixed in with extremely strict hierarchies favoring the elderly patriarchs are strangling Japan to death in so many ways. that isn't cynicism to me so much as it is a legitimate criticism of so many of the issues present in so many of the societies around the world
posted by paimapi at 9:20 AM on May 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
even Chainsaw Man is relentlessly, absurdly hopeful - the latest chapter had Denji exclaim about how he has great hope for the future because he's looking forward to having sex for the first time and that this drives him relentlessly forward just like he was driven by getting out of debt, touching boobs, getting his first kiss, etc. it's a deconstruction of shonen / gag manga tropes, bildungsromans, and masculinity paired with the absurdity of existentialism but it's not hopeless
if there's any newly found, more popular cynicism that I see in manga it's towards institutions, capitalism, and technology as the savior of humankind but even these themes were found in anime/manga from the 80s, as easily traceable to huge cultural monoliths in the space like Akira or in the 90s/00s to the works of Satoshi Kon, or in Gundam's persistent decrying of war or to Patlabor's criticisms of the same in the domestic lens
Jujutsu Kaisen and Chainsaw Man are refreshing in this regard - there's no worshipping of older generations, of tradition, but rather there's a confrontation of a distorted white washed history and a need to rationally engage with outdated, outmoded practices that have existed for centuries. like Chainsaw Man's whole thing is that he's this randomly powerful Devil that somehow has the ability to erase the primal fears that have existed since forever? and Satoru Gojo's whole character is literally him disrespecting and refuting the demands of the elderly rulers of the sorcerer world. is that cynicism? or is that the younger generations of Japan finally speaking out against the even more insipid, regressive gerontocracy of Japanese politics?
I feel like the author of this article is attempting to map Western anxieties about climate change, gun violence, etc to Japanese cultural products and I really just don't see it fitting. Japanese anime/manga is, to me, almost singularly focused on how the current political landscape of crony capitalism mixed in with extremely strict hierarchies favoring the elderly patriarchs are strangling Japan to death in so many ways. that isn't cynicism to me so much as it is a legitimate criticism of so many of the issues present in so many of the societies around the world
posted by paimapi at 9:20 AM on May 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
I just want to say that I'm enjoying reading this discussion even more than I did the article.
posted by ZaphodB at 9:55 AM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ZaphodB at 9:55 AM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
paimapi: Fantastic comment, and yeah, agreed on pretty much all of it. I don't watch any of the shows you mentioned, but I do read the manga for a handful of them, and they are all hopeful. Even Vinland Saga, which reaches its darkest point in the recently animated second arc, is hopeful throughout the entire thing, and that gets ratcheted up in the arcs that follow. (I hope there's a Season Three of the anime, because the third arc has some outstanding sweet and funny moments in between the drama and violence).
As for anime, most of the recent stuff I watch is comedies, and the best ones have been as sharp and witty as ever. A couple of those, Laid-Back Camp and Skip and Loafer, have rural settings and/or mention rural depopulation, which happens to be a serious problem in Japan at the moment. As you said, mapping Western-specific concerns onto anime and manga doesn't make much sense, especially since part of their appeal is their inherent Japanese-ness.
posted by May Kasahara at 10:25 AM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
As for anime, most of the recent stuff I watch is comedies, and the best ones have been as sharp and witty as ever. A couple of those, Laid-Back Camp and Skip and Loafer, have rural settings and/or mention rural depopulation, which happens to be a serious problem in Japan at the moment. As you said, mapping Western-specific concerns onto anime and manga doesn't make much sense, especially since part of their appeal is their inherent Japanese-ness.
posted by May Kasahara at 10:25 AM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
My admittedly limited exposure to anime began with Star Blazers and then Akira when it came out in US theaters, only gradually finding other 80s and 90s stuff, and my general impression of the anime that era is that it was suffused with culturally specific apocalyptic themes: how many times have Japanese megalopolises been destroyed in the medium/genre, and how many times was that destruction rendered in imagery that called to mind nuclear holocaust?
posted by vitia at 10:45 AM on May 2, 2023
posted by vitia at 10:45 AM on May 2, 2023
I'm not sure I agree with this article. the most popular animes at the moment seem to me as being endlessly hopeful
yeah I didn't want to show up to this conversation & "um actually" with the single data point of "I'm watching Dr. Stone right now" but I am in fact watching Dr. Stone right now and JEEZ that is a hopeful series; the entire premise is that humanity will always be able to pull ourselves out of the direst of shitters because there will always be someone who just really loves science & science will work it all out
like [early spoilers] there's a guy with valid-seeming concerns about what happens if we resurrect the old rich dudes & they recreate the shitty capitalist power dynamic, and this guy is not the protagonist (does too much murders)
even Kotaro Lives Alone, which is about a toddler who lives by himself to escape an abusive father & has some incredibly bleak moments, is ultimately about how the kid's apartment neighbors, who are all kinda fuck-uppy in their own ways, step up to co-parent him & how this arrangement helps them build slightly more functional lives with richer relationships
I'm definitely not consuming all of manga/anime so it's possible I'm just missing the doom, but yeah, with paimapi on this one
posted by taquito sunrise at 10:58 AM on May 2, 2023
yeah I didn't want to show up to this conversation & "um actually" with the single data point of "I'm watching Dr. Stone right now" but I am in fact watching Dr. Stone right now and JEEZ that is a hopeful series; the entire premise is that humanity will always be able to pull ourselves out of the direst of shitters because there will always be someone who just really loves science & science will work it all out
like [early spoilers] there's a guy with valid-seeming concerns about what happens if we resurrect the old rich dudes & they recreate the shitty capitalist power dynamic, and this guy is not the protagonist (does too much murders)
even Kotaro Lives Alone, which is about a toddler who lives by himself to escape an abusive father & has some incredibly bleak moments, is ultimately about how the kid's apartment neighbors, who are all kinda fuck-uppy in their own ways, step up to co-parent him & how this arrangement helps them build slightly more functional lives with richer relationships
I'm definitely not consuming all of manga/anime so it's possible I'm just missing the doom, but yeah, with paimapi on this one
posted by taquito sunrise at 10:58 AM on May 2, 2023
Laid-Back Camp and Skip and Loafer
May Kasahara
Ah, I see you're a MeFite of culture as well.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:33 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
May Kasahara
Ah, I see you're a MeFite of culture as well.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:33 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
But regarding the FPP, I think that paimapi is generally right, but the rise and dominance of the isekai genre does represent a disturbing trend along the lines of what the author is getting at. There is a vast swath of anime and manga about just abandoning this world for a better one. It gets to the point where some isekai works hardly even mention what happened in our world before the change, it's held in so little regard.
These kinds of stories in Japanese media didn't use to be like this. Older other-world stories like Escaflowne or Fushigi Yuugi started with the protagonists and their struggles in the regular world, had them go on fantastical adventures where they learned and grew as people, then returned them to the normal world as more mature people better able to face the challenges of life. Modern isekai is just pure escapism, completely abandoning your meaningless normal life and never looking back. It's a bit disturbing that it's so popular.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:40 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
These kinds of stories in Japanese media didn't use to be like this. Older other-world stories like Escaflowne or Fushigi Yuugi started with the protagonists and their struggles in the regular world, had them go on fantastical adventures where they learned and grew as people, then returned them to the normal world as more mature people better able to face the challenges of life. Modern isekai is just pure escapism, completely abandoning your meaningless normal life and never looking back. It's a bit disturbing that it's so popular.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:40 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I feel like the article wanted to focus on Leiji Matsumoto and then added the bit at the end about how current anime isn't as hopeful to try to make the article more current because it's too late for it to be an obit.
I don't know what the Japanese TV landscape is like (I have zero control of the remote when I visit so I just watch what other people are watching) but there has to be more channels to show anime on than there were back in Matsumoto's heyday so you're going to have anime that doesn't fit the standard, more hopeful, outlook. But I imagine if you looks at ratings or movie earnings the hopeful stuff would still be on top. Even Attack on Titan's ending was hopeful even if it was also very stupid (seriously, that's the best plan you could think of Eren?).
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:52 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't know what the Japanese TV landscape is like (I have zero control of the remote when I visit so I just watch what other people are watching) but there has to be more channels to show anime on than there were back in Matsumoto's heyday so you're going to have anime that doesn't fit the standard, more hopeful, outlook. But I imagine if you looks at ratings or movie earnings the hopeful stuff would still be on top. Even Attack on Titan's ending was hopeful even if it was also very stupid (seriously, that's the best plan you could think of Eren?).
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:52 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
My friends have a running joke that all anime is about how human bonds, shared humanity and hope for the future is good, actually. That the mark of a true villain is the rejection of these basic tenets.
I've seen a lot of people have issues with villain redemption arcs in fiction but it's a mainstay of tons of anime and usually has a lot to say about how evil is driven by hurt and isolation and it's usually only the most deeply ideologically committed villains who die.
Or maybe it's a reflection of popularity polls and people don't want to kill off potential merchandising opportunities...
The business of making anime and manga seems ruthlessly pragmatic. It's almost funny to see shows borrowing tropes and concepts and even extremely specific details from eachother in an effort to grab and hold attention long enough to escape the axe, but a yearning for purpose and connection at the heart of (most of) even the bleakest shows feels genuine.
That earnestness along side messiness and strangeness is what keeps me coming back.
posted by Reyturner at 12:02 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've seen a lot of people have issues with villain redemption arcs in fiction but it's a mainstay of tons of anime and usually has a lot to say about how evil is driven by hurt and isolation and it's usually only the most deeply ideologically committed villains who die.
Or maybe it's a reflection of popularity polls and people don't want to kill off potential merchandising opportunities...
The business of making anime and manga seems ruthlessly pragmatic. It's almost funny to see shows borrowing tropes and concepts and even extremely specific details from eachother in an effort to grab and hold attention long enough to escape the axe, but a yearning for purpose and connection at the heart of (most of) even the bleakest shows feels genuine.
That earnestness along side messiness and strangeness is what keeps me coming back.
posted by Reyturner at 12:02 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
with regards to isekai, the genre itself is consistently focused on a power fantasy but the power is almost always wielded by the protagonist against existing institutional structures. 100 Lives, Reincarnated Sage, Skeleton Soldier, 5000 Year Great Mage, Yakuza Reincarnation, etc - these are series where the main character(s) exist as empowered agents in a generally irrational and corrupt world dominated by horrifyingly oppressive religious institutions, gods, and etc. - beings that have, in this reality, controlled and manipulated these fantasy societies for centuries leading to mass suffering
I think a very surface level engagement with these series sees these just as power fantasies - and I definitely to think that's a major component to a lot of them, esp the ones with the fucking harem shitplots going on - but there's also very specific bent towards how power is used in these fantasies that starts with how so many of the protagonists aren't teenagers or otakus of yesteryear but literal salarymen to how these efficient, well-organized, meta-gaming protagonists are able to utilize that power to address things like racism, sexism, and inequality in these worlds. like how Reincarnated as a Slime creates a refuge/sanctuary for the erstwhile monsters featured in so many JRPGs, how the Great Mage opposes the demigods, how there's almost always basically a Christian/Western church that is highly intolerant of everyone but gets their just desserts in the end, etc
this, again, isn't fatalism or apocalyptic or even really just an escape from the real world - real world concerns just become mapped to RPG/fantasy worlds and instead of a long training montage featured as a part of the Western capitalist monomyth you skip directly to being empowered, much like how Sun Wukong in Journey to the West is already a powerful demigod who spends much of the story not realizing how shitty things are for people until he finally gets it and realizes he needs to intervene. this isn't a bad thing - it's just not Joseph Campbells hero with a thousand faces and that's totally fine because there are so many stories that don't follow that story structure whatsoever in spite of what your English teachers taught you otherwise
these stories are very much a 'what would you do if you had power' story that exist in a world where the people in power are terrible, power-hungry assholes, and the best of the isekai series consistently return to a central humanist theme - that everyone suffers, that they don't have to, and really there was no reason for things to have existed in this way the whole time
posted by paimapi at 12:17 PM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think a very surface level engagement with these series sees these just as power fantasies - and I definitely to think that's a major component to a lot of them, esp the ones with the fucking harem shitplots going on - but there's also very specific bent towards how power is used in these fantasies that starts with how so many of the protagonists aren't teenagers or otakus of yesteryear but literal salarymen to how these efficient, well-organized, meta-gaming protagonists are able to utilize that power to address things like racism, sexism, and inequality in these worlds. like how Reincarnated as a Slime creates a refuge/sanctuary for the erstwhile monsters featured in so many JRPGs, how the Great Mage opposes the demigods, how there's almost always basically a Christian/Western church that is highly intolerant of everyone but gets their just desserts in the end, etc
this, again, isn't fatalism or apocalyptic or even really just an escape from the real world - real world concerns just become mapped to RPG/fantasy worlds and instead of a long training montage featured as a part of the Western capitalist monomyth you skip directly to being empowered, much like how Sun Wukong in Journey to the West is already a powerful demigod who spends much of the story not realizing how shitty things are for people until he finally gets it and realizes he needs to intervene. this isn't a bad thing - it's just not Joseph Campbells hero with a thousand faces and that's totally fine because there are so many stories that don't follow that story structure whatsoever in spite of what your English teachers taught you otherwise
these stories are very much a 'what would you do if you had power' story that exist in a world where the people in power are terrible, power-hungry assholes, and the best of the isekai series consistently return to a central humanist theme - that everyone suffers, that they don't have to, and really there was no reason for things to have existed in this way the whole time
posted by paimapi at 12:17 PM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Modern isekai is just pure escapism, completely abandoning your meaningless normal life and never looking back.
I'd say at the very least the better examples of the genre push back on the escapism aspect, like Re:Zero and how it makes it abundantly clear that the protagonist won't do any better in the new world he's in unless he works to unfuck himself.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:28 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd say at the very least the better examples of the genre push back on the escapism aspect, like Re:Zero and how it makes it abundantly clear that the protagonist won't do any better in the new world he's in unless he works to unfuck himself.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:28 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unfettered by anything like America’s draconian Comics Code Authority—a set of guidelines, established in 1954, that forbade “lurid, unsavory, gruesome illustrations” and insisted that “in every instance good shall triumph over evil”—Japanese creators had great freedom.
Kudos to Alt for reminding the audience of the CCA's impact.
posted by doctornemo at 1:32 PM on May 2, 2023
Kudos to Alt for reminding the audience of the CCA's impact.
posted by doctornemo at 1:32 PM on May 2, 2023
Paimapi covered most of my objections to the article, which seems to be a lukewarm take tacked on to an obit for Leiji Matsumoto. It doesn't make sense to say that anime is bleaker when even Evangelion now ends with group therapy and happy endings all around, except for characters who had the misfortune to die before Shinji learned how to talk to his dad.
Chainsaw Man is surprisingly joyful--I put on the first episode to keep me occupied while I sullenly pedaled on my little fake-peloton, but I ended up watching the first 3 episodes and then hopping off the bike and starting the manga.
My undercooked take is that Gen Urobuchi in the early 2010s was peak anime bleak.
posted by betweenthebars at 3:53 PM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Chainsaw Man is surprisingly joyful--I put on the first episode to keep me occupied while I sullenly pedaled on my little fake-peloton, but I ended up watching the first 3 episodes and then hopping off the bike and starting the manga.
My undercooked take is that Gen Urobuchi in the early 2010s was peak anime bleak.
posted by betweenthebars at 3:53 PM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ah, I see you're a MeFite of culture as well.
If I was joining MeFi today, I might've named myself after Shima from Skip and Loafer. I relate to him so much it's painful.
posted by May Kasahara at 5:26 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
If I was joining MeFi today, I might've named myself after Shima from Skip and Loafer. I relate to him so much it's painful.
posted by May Kasahara at 5:26 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Kudos to Alt for reminding the audience of the CCA's impact.
Except that it's also bullshit, as while Japan might not have had explicit codification of regulations against prurience, there was quite a bit of social restriction - hence why you had gekiga as artistic revolt against those strictures, not to mention the work of Go Nagai and his deliberate flaunting of those standards and the response thereof.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:18 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Except that it's also bullshit, as while Japan might not have had explicit codification of regulations against prurience, there was quite a bit of social restriction - hence why you had gekiga as artistic revolt against those strictures, not to mention the work of Go Nagai and his deliberate flaunting of those standards and the response thereof.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:18 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
My friends watch a lot of modern anime, which seem remarkably silly and disposable to me. Lately, I've been getting immense pleasure from digging up old classics that I've never seen -- Arcadia of my Youth, Space Adventure Cobra, Macross: Do You Believe in Love?, Galaxy Express 999, and others.
My favorites, however, are the six Urusei Yatsura movies. Watching them without the context of the series, and also being blazed on perfectly legal Delta 8 edibles, has been one of the most amazing viewing experiences of my life. Highly recommend.
posted by Chronorin at 12:19 AM on May 3, 2023
My favorites, however, are the six Urusei Yatsura movies. Watching them without the context of the series, and also being blazed on perfectly legal Delta 8 edibles, has been one of the most amazing viewing experiences of my life. Highly recommend.
posted by Chronorin at 12:19 AM on May 3, 2023
Except that it's also bullshit
Except it's not, for exactly the reason you gave: the mores were codified in the US and not in Japan.
In the US, most distributors simply wouldn't carry comics that didn't have the CCA seal during its heyday. That means you couldn't find un-approved comics in stores, on newsstands, or almost anywhere. Whatever new artistic movements arose in the US, such as the underground "comix" movement that came about in the US around the same time as the gekiga movement in Japan, it didn't matter to the general market because consumer access to them was severely restricted. This hugely stunted the American market by strangling off entire genres that couldn't get distributed under the CCA and lead to massive consolidation.
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:46 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Except it's not, for exactly the reason you gave: the mores were codified in the US and not in Japan.
In the US, most distributors simply wouldn't carry comics that didn't have the CCA seal during its heyday. That means you couldn't find un-approved comics in stores, on newsstands, or almost anywhere. Whatever new artistic movements arose in the US, such as the underground "comix" movement that came about in the US around the same time as the gekiga movement in Japan, it didn't matter to the general market because consumer access to them was severely restricted. This hugely stunted the American market by strangling off entire genres that couldn't get distributed under the CCA and lead to massive consolidation.
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:46 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the US, most distributors simply wouldn't carry comics that didn't have the CCA seal during its heyday. That means you couldn't find un-approved comics in stores, on newsstands, or almost anywhere.
Well, up until Stan Lee called the CCA's bluff in '71 during the Green Goblin arc. Which actually proved the real issue - distributors just didn't carry anything that wasn't DC/Marvel, and they didn't care if DC/Marvel had the CCA imprimatur.
Also, you're wrong about unapproved comics not on the shelves, because a very famous one would grace newsstands across the US and become a staple of American culture. A product of the old EC Comics brand, the humor anthology was born in part of Bill Gaines' anger at how he was treated during the hearings leading to the CCA, and he sidestepped the new organization by saying this wasn't a comic book.
I am, of course, talking about MAD Magazine, which was yet more proof that the CCA was a paper tiger.
So yeah, the CCA wasn't what damaged the American comic industry (though it didn't help), and manga had it's own issues with reactionaries (again, read up on the metric fuckton of shit Go Nagai went through with his work.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:05 AM on May 3, 2023
Well, up until Stan Lee called the CCA's bluff in '71 during the Green Goblin arc. Which actually proved the real issue - distributors just didn't carry anything that wasn't DC/Marvel, and they didn't care if DC/Marvel had the CCA imprimatur.
Also, you're wrong about unapproved comics not on the shelves, because a very famous one would grace newsstands across the US and become a staple of American culture. A product of the old EC Comics brand, the humor anthology was born in part of Bill Gaines' anger at how he was treated during the hearings leading to the CCA, and he sidestepped the new organization by saying this wasn't a comic book.
I am, of course, talking about MAD Magazine, which was yet more proof that the CCA was a paper tiger.
So yeah, the CCA wasn't what damaged the American comic industry (though it didn't help), and manga had it's own issues with reactionaries (again, read up on the metric fuckton of shit Go Nagai went through with his work.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:05 AM on May 3, 2023
Which actually proved the real issue - distributors just didn't carry anything that wasn't DC/Marvel, and they didn't care if DC/Marvel had the CCA imprimatur.
Demonstrably false, and you're getting cause and effect backward. There were many other publishers thriving in the market prior to the Code. One effect it had was to kill those other publishers that focused on things like horror, war comics, or crime comics, while allowing a muted version of the superhero comics Marvel/DC (or rather their predecessor entities) published to continue. This lead to the creation of the Marvel/DC oligopoly in the market, which would eventually allow Marvel (along with the backing of the federal government in this instance) to feel confident enough to buck the Code in that famous comic.
he sidestepped the new organization by saying this wasn't a comic book.
I am, of course, talking about MAD Magazine, which was yet more proof that the CCA was a paper tiger.
He "sidestepped" the CCA by...following its rules that explicitly excluded magazines of the type that Mad was engineered to be. You conveniently elide that the Code forced him to kill his enormously successful horror books, which is the entire point. The Code stunted the industry by severely restricting what could be published by restricting what could be distributed.
So yeah, the CCA wasn't what damaged the American comic industry
You're simply factually wrong here. The historical record is clear on the role the CCA played in crippling the American comic industry. It did to comics what the Hays Code did to film 20 years prior. It's bizarre that you're trying to argue against basic facts.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:44 AM on May 3, 2023
Demonstrably false, and you're getting cause and effect backward. There were many other publishers thriving in the market prior to the Code. One effect it had was to kill those other publishers that focused on things like horror, war comics, or crime comics, while allowing a muted version of the superhero comics Marvel/DC (or rather their predecessor entities) published to continue. This lead to the creation of the Marvel/DC oligopoly in the market, which would eventually allow Marvel (along with the backing of the federal government in this instance) to feel confident enough to buck the Code in that famous comic.
he sidestepped the new organization by saying this wasn't a comic book.
I am, of course, talking about MAD Magazine, which was yet more proof that the CCA was a paper tiger.
He "sidestepped" the CCA by...following its rules that explicitly excluded magazines of the type that Mad was engineered to be. You conveniently elide that the Code forced him to kill his enormously successful horror books, which is the entire point. The Code stunted the industry by severely restricting what could be published by restricting what could be distributed.
So yeah, the CCA wasn't what damaged the American comic industry
You're simply factually wrong here. The historical record is clear on the role the CCA played in crippling the American comic industry. It did to comics what the Hays Code did to film 20 years prior. It's bizarre that you're trying to argue against basic facts.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:44 AM on May 3, 2023
Demonstrably false, and you're getting cause and effect backward. There were many other publishers thriving in the market prior to the Code.
No, I think that the fact that the comic industry could have the CCA pushed on them right as the Hays Code was dying out thanks to the collapse of the studio system and the "you'll never sell a ticket" threat illustrates that the industry was, in fact, not thriving at all. The simple reality is that comics were no longer seen as a mass medium for everyone, and that gave the usual suspects the leverage they needed to push the CCA. As for why, I suspect that the rise of television in the US in the 50s resorted media in a way that didn't quite happen in either Japan or Europe as they were both still getting things sorted out after WWII, and thus comics were viable there as mass media in a way they weren't in the US.
He "sidestepped" the CCA by...following its rules that explicitly excluded magazines of the type that Mad was engineered to be.
Which illustrates the point about the CCA being a paper tiger - if the governance was serious about controlling prurient content, that move shouldn't have worked. I'd also imagine that the fact that parody has always carried more robust 1A protection may have precluded picking a fight over MAD, and risking the whole CCA.
I view the CCA more a symptom of larger problems with American comics in the larger culture than a cause, especially given that other mediums were going in the opposite direction in terms of oversight and censorship.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:59 PM on May 3, 2023
No, I think that the fact that the comic industry could have the CCA pushed on them right as the Hays Code was dying out thanks to the collapse of the studio system and the "you'll never sell a ticket" threat illustrates that the industry was, in fact, not thriving at all. The simple reality is that comics were no longer seen as a mass medium for everyone, and that gave the usual suspects the leverage they needed to push the CCA. As for why, I suspect that the rise of television in the US in the 50s resorted media in a way that didn't quite happen in either Japan or Europe as they were both still getting things sorted out after WWII, and thus comics were viable there as mass media in a way they weren't in the US.
He "sidestepped" the CCA by...following its rules that explicitly excluded magazines of the type that Mad was engineered to be.
Which illustrates the point about the CCA being a paper tiger - if the governance was serious about controlling prurient content, that move shouldn't have worked. I'd also imagine that the fact that parody has always carried more robust 1A protection may have precluded picking a fight over MAD, and risking the whole CCA.
I view the CCA more a symptom of larger problems with American comics in the larger culture than a cause, especially given that other mediums were going in the opposite direction in terms of oversight and censorship.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:59 PM on May 3, 2023
You're conflating two things: sales and content.
Yes, it was inevitable that comic sales would drop from their postwar peak due to the rise of TV and other factors. What was absolutely not inevitable was the severe restriction of content in mainstream American comics, which was entirely the result of the Code.
The postwar period saw a marginalization of superhero comics after their boom years of the early-mid 1940s. Crime, mystery, romance, horror, and sci-fi rose up instead to became massively popular genres in the late 40 and early 50s. It was exactly the massive sales of these genres that aroused the ire and attention of the general public and led eventually to the Code. Thanks to the Code, content of the mainstream American comics industry was utterly stunted. All those genres that had thrived prior to it were gutted, the only thing that could survive in the new environment were the most anodyne of superhero books.
When people talk about the Code "killing" the American industry, this is what they mean. It bound mainstream comics to superheroes in a way that lasted for decades in a completely artificial way. This simply didn't happen in Japan and Europe where, though as you note it wasn't all smooth sailing, genres like romance, horror, crime, sci-fi, etc. could continue to exist and be sold.
Your own examples show the exact opposite of what you're trying to say: why did Gaines found Mad? Because the Code neutered the horror, crime, and sci-fi genres EC was built on, destroying EC. Why were Amazing Spider-Man #96–98 notable? Because they were the first major comics to buck the Code in 17 years.
Just think for a moment about what you're saying: the Code is somehow a "paper tiger" that strangled non-complying non-cape publishers and kept even the big cape publishers in an iron grip obeying its rules for nearly two decades.
Again, regarding the change in content in mainstream American comics starting in the 1950s, you're simply factually wrong. You don't need to take my word for it, read any history of the medium in the US. This is a completely non-controversial, basic fact about the development of the US comic industry. You're committed to an ahistorical contrarianism on this point to a truly baffling degree.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:14 PM on May 3, 2023
Yes, it was inevitable that comic sales would drop from their postwar peak due to the rise of TV and other factors. What was absolutely not inevitable was the severe restriction of content in mainstream American comics, which was entirely the result of the Code.
The postwar period saw a marginalization of superhero comics after their boom years of the early-mid 1940s. Crime, mystery, romance, horror, and sci-fi rose up instead to became massively popular genres in the late 40 and early 50s. It was exactly the massive sales of these genres that aroused the ire and attention of the general public and led eventually to the Code. Thanks to the Code, content of the mainstream American comics industry was utterly stunted. All those genres that had thrived prior to it were gutted, the only thing that could survive in the new environment were the most anodyne of superhero books.
When people talk about the Code "killing" the American industry, this is what they mean. It bound mainstream comics to superheroes in a way that lasted for decades in a completely artificial way. This simply didn't happen in Japan and Europe where, though as you note it wasn't all smooth sailing, genres like romance, horror, crime, sci-fi, etc. could continue to exist and be sold.
Your own examples show the exact opposite of what you're trying to say: why did Gaines found Mad? Because the Code neutered the horror, crime, and sci-fi genres EC was built on, destroying EC. Why were Amazing Spider-Man #96–98 notable? Because they were the first major comics to buck the Code in 17 years.
Just think for a moment about what you're saying: the Code is somehow a "paper tiger" that strangled non-complying non-cape publishers and kept even the big cape publishers in an iron grip obeying its rules for nearly two decades.
Again, regarding the change in content in mainstream American comics starting in the 1950s, you're simply factually wrong. You don't need to take my word for it, read any history of the medium in the US. This is a completely non-controversial, basic fact about the development of the US comic industry. You're committed to an ahistorical contrarianism on this point to a truly baffling degree.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:14 PM on May 3, 2023
You're committed to an ahistorical contrarianism on this point to a truly baffling degree.
Because I don't agree with how this history is recounted, in large part due to what gets elided out? The supposed "history" is that the CCA is forced on the American comics industry, contracting the industry heavily - that the comics industry was purely a victim here. But (and this has been discussed in other threads) similar social pressures existed in Europe and Japan, and yet it's only the US where all this happened, which leads to the question - why? And I think that question is what discomforts a lot of American comic fans, in large part because those dynamics continue to play out.
You brought up the Hays Code as a comparison, but the thing was that the Code came to power during the height of the studio system, where it was used as a tool to help reinforce the power of the studios. It's not surprising that as the studio system collapsed, the Code collapsed along with it, and in doing so revealed that one of the core arguments for the Code - that movies without Code approval would lose Catholic attendance - was a pile of bullshit. And yet, this was the same "argument" used for the CCA - the public would reject any title without CCA imprimatur, so distributors refused to sell non-CCA titles.
So, if the usual story doesn't hold up, what would the actual reason be? In my personal opinion, the "Judgement Day" fiasco illustrates the real reason for the CCA - as we would see with other media, there were wide swaths of the country that would burn things to the ground (both metaphorically and literally) than allow stories challenging the white supremacist narrative of society, and which likely had sympathetic ears in the industry. So the industry "makes" the choice to toss aside all those genres to "protect" itself (and if the result consolidates power among the larger publishers, well...they're not going to complain.) In short, the industry wasn't a victim, but a participant (which it had to be, given that the CCA was created by the industry.)
Just think for a moment about what you're saying: the Code is somehow a "paper tiger" that strangled non-complying non-cape publishers and kept even the big cape publishers in an iron grip obeying its rules for nearly two decades.
Because that's how paper tigers work - they often are even more vicious because they fear people realizing that they wield little actual power. (Not to mention that those publishers found those rules to be useful in maintaining their own control, like how the studios used the Hays Code.) To use one of my favorite punching bags as an example, the NCAA was famously vicious over players making money in large part because their whole ediface for doing so was built on nothing. Which is why when that got outed in Alston, the NCAA only had one response open to them - remove the rules that everyone now knew had no support. It's the story of the emperor with no clothes - nobody wants to be the first to say they can see the imperial scepter for fear of retaliation, but once someone does, the collapse follows.
This simply didn't happen in Japan and Europe where, though as you note it wasn't all smooth sailing, genres like romance, horror, crime, sci-fi, etc. could continue to exist and be sold.
Again, the question is why is that, and I don't buy the CCA as the answer in total. I think the reality is that in the US, "non-traditional" demographics get short shrift when we discuss media consumption, and as such the genres which had more "non-traditional readers were not considered important to maintain. I do think if their presence was larger, that argument would have been harder to make - furthermore, this has been a self-fulfilling prophecy in the way we've seen the established comic companies treat women readers and artists.
why did Gaines found Mad? Because the Code neutered the horror, crime, and sci-fi genres EC was built on, destroying EC.
MAD was literally founded as a comic book two years prior to the CCA and would have 23 issues in that format. Gaines is on record as stating that while shifting to a magazine format removed them from the CCA, that was not the purpose of doing so - the move was to retain the title's EIC. Now, Gaines would choose to fully focus on MAD after an attempt to retool the EC lineup for the CCA failed, but MAD was not itself a product of the CCA.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:02 AM on May 4, 2023
Because I don't agree with how this history is recounted, in large part due to what gets elided out? The supposed "history" is that the CCA is forced on the American comics industry, contracting the industry heavily - that the comics industry was purely a victim here. But (and this has been discussed in other threads) similar social pressures existed in Europe and Japan, and yet it's only the US where all this happened, which leads to the question - why? And I think that question is what discomforts a lot of American comic fans, in large part because those dynamics continue to play out.
You brought up the Hays Code as a comparison, but the thing was that the Code came to power during the height of the studio system, where it was used as a tool to help reinforce the power of the studios. It's not surprising that as the studio system collapsed, the Code collapsed along with it, and in doing so revealed that one of the core arguments for the Code - that movies without Code approval would lose Catholic attendance - was a pile of bullshit. And yet, this was the same "argument" used for the CCA - the public would reject any title without CCA imprimatur, so distributors refused to sell non-CCA titles.
So, if the usual story doesn't hold up, what would the actual reason be? In my personal opinion, the "Judgement Day" fiasco illustrates the real reason for the CCA - as we would see with other media, there were wide swaths of the country that would burn things to the ground (both metaphorically and literally) than allow stories challenging the white supremacist narrative of society, and which likely had sympathetic ears in the industry. So the industry "makes" the choice to toss aside all those genres to "protect" itself (and if the result consolidates power among the larger publishers, well...they're not going to complain.) In short, the industry wasn't a victim, but a participant (which it had to be, given that the CCA was created by the industry.)
Just think for a moment about what you're saying: the Code is somehow a "paper tiger" that strangled non-complying non-cape publishers and kept even the big cape publishers in an iron grip obeying its rules for nearly two decades.
Because that's how paper tigers work - they often are even more vicious because they fear people realizing that they wield little actual power. (Not to mention that those publishers found those rules to be useful in maintaining their own control, like how the studios used the Hays Code.) To use one of my favorite punching bags as an example, the NCAA was famously vicious over players making money in large part because their whole ediface for doing so was built on nothing. Which is why when that got outed in Alston, the NCAA only had one response open to them - remove the rules that everyone now knew had no support. It's the story of the emperor with no clothes - nobody wants to be the first to say they can see the imperial scepter for fear of retaliation, but once someone does, the collapse follows.
This simply didn't happen in Japan and Europe where, though as you note it wasn't all smooth sailing, genres like romance, horror, crime, sci-fi, etc. could continue to exist and be sold.
Again, the question is why is that, and I don't buy the CCA as the answer in total. I think the reality is that in the US, "non-traditional" demographics get short shrift when we discuss media consumption, and as such the genres which had more "non-traditional readers were not considered important to maintain. I do think if their presence was larger, that argument would have been harder to make - furthermore, this has been a self-fulfilling prophecy in the way we've seen the established comic companies treat women readers and artists.
why did Gaines found Mad? Because the Code neutered the horror, crime, and sci-fi genres EC was built on, destroying EC.
MAD was literally founded as a comic book two years prior to the CCA and would have 23 issues in that format. Gaines is on record as stating that while shifting to a magazine format removed them from the CCA, that was not the purpose of doing so - the move was to retain the title's EIC. Now, Gaines would choose to fully focus on MAD after an attempt to retool the EC lineup for the CCA failed, but MAD was not itself a product of the CCA.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:02 AM on May 4, 2023
Wait long enough and something terrible will happen to him anyway.
posted by Artw at 7:05 AM on May 4, 2023
posted by Artw at 7:05 AM on May 4, 2023
Again, you're confusing and conflating multiple issues.
It's the story of the emperor with no clothes - nobody wants to be the first to say they can see the imperial scepter for fear of retaliation, but once someone does, the collapse follows.
This is what I mean. Whether or not the Hays Code had "real power", it heavily affected how films in American were made while it was in power. Whether or not NCAA was "built on nothing", it controlled how student athletes were treated for the decades it was in power. Whether or not the CCA was a paper tiger, it severely restricted comic content in the US.
You are, bizarrely, arguing that because these institutions were eventually defanged, they therefore never did anything. This is not even wrong, it's just silly.
Again, the question is why is that, and I don't buy the CCA as the answer in total.
The good thing about the truth is that it doesn't matter if you buy it.
the genres which had more "non-traditional readers were not considered important to maintain.
This is the core of your misunderstanding: horror, Westerns, sci-fi, crime, war, etc. comics were the dominant mainstream genres of that period, read by "traditional" readers. It was superheroes that had became the marginalized fringe at the time. You don't have to take my word for it, look up sales for the post-war, pre-Code period.
I think what's happening here is that you are projecting the situation today, where only cape comics are the mainstream and their shrinking fanbase fights bitterly against all else, back onto the late 1940s/early 1950s, but that's simply not the case. The world today is a result of what the Code wrought on the mainstream American comic industry.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:40 AM on May 4, 2023
It's the story of the emperor with no clothes - nobody wants to be the first to say they can see the imperial scepter for fear of retaliation, but once someone does, the collapse follows.
This is what I mean. Whether or not the Hays Code had "real power", it heavily affected how films in American were made while it was in power. Whether or not NCAA was "built on nothing", it controlled how student athletes were treated for the decades it was in power. Whether or not the CCA was a paper tiger, it severely restricted comic content in the US.
You are, bizarrely, arguing that because these institutions were eventually defanged, they therefore never did anything. This is not even wrong, it's just silly.
Again, the question is why is that, and I don't buy the CCA as the answer in total.
The good thing about the truth is that it doesn't matter if you buy it.
the genres which had more "non-traditional readers were not considered important to maintain.
This is the core of your misunderstanding: horror, Westerns, sci-fi, crime, war, etc. comics were the dominant mainstream genres of that period, read by "traditional" readers. It was superheroes that had became the marginalized fringe at the time. You don't have to take my word for it, look up sales for the post-war, pre-Code period.
I think what's happening here is that you are projecting the situation today, where only cape comics are the mainstream and their shrinking fanbase fights bitterly against all else, back onto the late 1940s/early 1950s, but that's simply not the case. The world today is a result of what the Code wrought on the mainstream American comic industry.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:40 AM on May 4, 2023
You are, bizarrely, arguing that because these institutions were eventually defanged, they therefore never did anything. This is not even wrong, it's just silly.
I am arguing no such thing. I am pointing out that the publishers were complicit in the CCA, just as the studios were with the Hays Code, and colleges with the NCAA. And as such, the CCA needs to be viewed in that context - not as external restraint forced on the industry, but as internal control being exerted by industry leadership. The industry did this to itself, and the question is that if those titles were doing as well as you claim, why would they cut their own throat? Again, the fiasco around "Judgement Day" gives some hints, given that this is the era of McCarthy and HUAC.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:54 PM on May 4, 2023
I am arguing no such thing. I am pointing out that the publishers were complicit in the CCA, just as the studios were with the Hays Code, and colleges with the NCAA. And as such, the CCA needs to be viewed in that context - not as external restraint forced on the industry, but as internal control being exerted by industry leadership. The industry did this to itself, and the question is that if those titles were doing as well as you claim, why would they cut their own throat? Again, the fiasco around "Judgement Day" gives some hints, given that this is the era of McCarthy and HUAC.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:54 PM on May 4, 2023
This is the core of your misunderstanding: horror, Westerns, sci-fi, crime, war, etc. comics were the dominant mainstream genres of that period, read by "traditional" readers.
First off, from what I've read, the late 40s-early 50s in American comics were an interregnum where there was no "dominant" genre, and comic publishers were trying everything to remain relevant. Which leads to...
Second, can you say that there was an American equivalent in reach, establishment, and respect to shojo, which was being codified in this period? Because I can't - and that has been an endemic problem in American comics. That's what I mean by "non-traditional" audiences - the reality is that American comics have historically been seen as a medium for males (and boys in particular) - a belief that has always warped the view of comics in the US.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:05 PM on May 4, 2023
First off, from what I've read, the late 40s-early 50s in American comics were an interregnum where there was no "dominant" genre, and comic publishers were trying everything to remain relevant. Which leads to...
Second, can you say that there was an American equivalent in reach, establishment, and respect to shojo, which was being codified in this period? Because I can't - and that has been an endemic problem in American comics. That's what I mean by "non-traditional" audiences - the reality is that American comics have historically been seen as a medium for males (and boys in particular) - a belief that has always warped the view of comics in the US.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:05 PM on May 4, 2023
So, anyway, anime!
"Anime is as imaginative as ever. It’s also a lot bleaker than it was in Matsumoto’s heyday," says the piece. Could it be that there's just so much more of it? I watch a lot of anime and it's almost all cheerful, even if it might not sound that way at first (yes yes all living beings on earth turned to stone but also it's funny! These hitmen killed this toddler's dad but oh the hijinks!).
Anime is so diverse, I feel it would be equally easy to write an "Anime is so much happier than it used to be" article.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:43 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Anime is as imaginative as ever. It’s also a lot bleaker than it was in Matsumoto’s heyday," says the piece. Could it be that there's just so much more of it? I watch a lot of anime and it's almost all cheerful, even if it might not sound that way at first (yes yes all living beings on earth turned to stone but also it's funny! These hitmen killed this toddler's dad but oh the hijinks!).
Anime is so diverse, I feel it would be equally easy to write an "Anime is so much happier than it used to be" article.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:43 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm going to be the nth person saying anime has always had an anti-establishment/alternative bent to it; this can be traced all the way back to Osamu Tezuka and other pioneers if you look hard enough.
While the issues that more mature shows touch on have indeed changed since the 80s and 90s, I believe they reflect the concepts of self-realization, authenticity, and individuality (as well as other mental health related ideas) more than fatalism. Look at Usseewa by Ado or My Dress Up Darling. It's hard to say that's negative, even if said themes can be incorporated into something highly depressing like Evangelion.
(The discussion of American comics here is really interesting, too. I have my nose in a manga all the time and barely know anything about that industry.)
posted by wandering zinnia at 12:01 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
While the issues that more mature shows touch on have indeed changed since the 80s and 90s, I believe they reflect the concepts of self-realization, authenticity, and individuality (as well as other mental health related ideas) more than fatalism. Look at Usseewa by Ado or My Dress Up Darling. It's hard to say that's negative, even if said themes can be incorporated into something highly depressing like Evangelion.
(The discussion of American comics here is really interesting, too. I have my nose in a manga all the time and barely know anything about that industry.)
posted by wandering zinnia at 12:01 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, to be clear, I meant that almost all the anime I watch is cheerful. I know it's not an entirely upbeat style.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:07 PM on May 5, 2023
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:07 PM on May 5, 2023
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I feel like North American comics went through this cycle years ago, post Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, when comics got super grimdark, up to and through the birth of Image and the grimmest of grimdark grimdarks, and that there's been a ~20-year project to kind of find some sort of balance between that and the four-colour innocence of the Silver Age.
So I wonder if this is just cyclical for all media, and it's anime's "turn" -- but from the perspective of somebody who has only ever dipped a toe or two into it, anime was already pretty dark; my exposure has been limited but it's not like Evangelion or Fist of the Northstar or Gantz are, like, pleasant.
posted by Shepherd at 5:46 AM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]