In Québec, A New Traffic Light Only Turns Green for Safe Drivers
May 9, 2023 5:10 AM Subscribe
Where I live, the usual approach to this kind of thing is speed bumps. A light that only turns green when you drive up to it slowly seems like a much better option.
posted by box at 5:35 AM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by box at 5:35 AM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not so keen on a citywide network to monitor traffic behavior and deal out punishments
I'm not wild on it from the surveillance pov, but it's way, way better than an armed police force that picks and chooses what laws to uphold, doesn't improve street safety, and uses traffic laws as a pretext to stop and do violence to people of color.
posted by entropone at 5:41 AM on May 9, 2023 [41 favorites]
I'm not wild on it from the surveillance pov, but it's way, way better than an armed police force that picks and chooses what laws to uphold, doesn't improve street safety, and uses traffic laws as a pretext to stop and do violence to people of color.
posted by entropone at 5:41 AM on May 9, 2023 [41 favorites]
What's supposed to happen when a speeding driver reaches the light? How long are they expected to wait there on red before it eventually turns green even for them? Or does it just remain red indefinitely in that case? Maybe they have to wait till a within-speed-limit driver approaches and slip through of their green? Won't most speeding drivers just get frustrated and drive off again no matter what colour the light is? Won't those who regularly use the route just speed through it regardless once they realise how the system works?
posted by Paul Slade at 5:41 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 5:41 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
There are some roads around here that used to have signs "Signals timed to require frequent stops" and I think this kind of mechanism is just an evolution on that concept.
Decades ago my hometown turned the two major east-west streets in the city into one-way streets, one in either direction. With a more predictable traffic flow, the city then synchronized the stoplights so that driving at the speed limit meant you could cross the entire city without touching your brakes.
Great in theory, but at one point I lived on Main Street and every summer evening I could hear cars impatiently revving at Main and Tisdale; then when the lights went green, they’d race away four streets to Main and Wentworth, gun the engine impatiently there until they could sprint the two blocks to Main and Sanford, repeat the performance there until they could tear the three or four blocks to Main and Fairleigh, and so on for presumably the entire city.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:42 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Decades ago my hometown turned the two major east-west streets in the city into one-way streets, one in either direction. With a more predictable traffic flow, the city then synchronized the stoplights so that driving at the speed limit meant you could cross the entire city without touching your brakes.
Great in theory, but at one point I lived on Main Street and every summer evening I could hear cars impatiently revving at Main and Tisdale; then when the lights went green, they’d race away four streets to Main and Wentworth, gun the engine impatiently there until they could sprint the two blocks to Main and Sanford, repeat the performance there until they could tear the three or four blocks to Main and Fairleigh, and so on for presumably the entire city.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:42 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Won't those who regularly use the route just speed through it regardless once they realise how the system works?
The story says that average speeds on that street have dropped from 40 km/hr to 29 km/hr, but sure, this is definitely eventually going to lead to Mad Max.
posted by Etrigan at 5:46 AM on May 9, 2023 [24 favorites]
The story says that average speeds on that street have dropped from 40 km/hr to 29 km/hr, but sure, this is definitely eventually going to lead to Mad Max.
posted by Etrigan at 5:46 AM on May 9, 2023 [24 favorites]
Won't those who regularly use the route just speed through it regardless once they realise how the system works?
That is a whole lot of weird whataboutisms, particularly when you consider that people generally at least slow down for stop signs.
posted by mhoye at 5:48 AM on May 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
That is a whole lot of weird whataboutisms, particularly when you consider that people generally at least slow down for stop signs.
posted by mhoye at 5:48 AM on May 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
I think there are way more people who will casually speed 10-15mph over the posted speed limit than there are those who would knowingly go through a red light. That's what this system takes advantage of.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:48 AM on May 9, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:48 AM on May 9, 2023 [20 favorites]
I think there are way more people who will casually speed 10-15mph over the posted speed limit than there are those who would knowingly go through a red light. That's what this system takes advantage of.
The thing I love most about this idea is that it puts a felt collective burden on the people to not speed. If everyone rolls at the speed limit, traffic goes smoothly! If you get excitable, then not just you but all the people behind you are suddenly inconvenienced.
posted by mhoye at 5:51 AM on May 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
The thing I love most about this idea is that it puts a felt collective burden on the people to not speed. If everyone rolls at the speed limit, traffic goes smoothly! If you get excitable, then not just you but all the people behind you are suddenly inconvenienced.
posted by mhoye at 5:51 AM on May 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
Of course, some people will do anything to avoid a red light.
Two or three times I've seen a driver come to a red light, go right on red without stopping, do an immediate u-turn on the cross street, then make another right turn on the cross street's green to avoid stopping.
People who go to lengths like that are sociopaths and I hope that they very quickly get their comeuppance before they hurt anyone.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:55 AM on May 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
Two or three times I've seen a driver come to a red light, go right on red without stopping, do an immediate u-turn on the cross street, then make another right turn on the cross street's green to avoid stopping.
People who go to lengths like that are sociopaths and I hope that they very quickly get their comeuppance before they hurt anyone.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:55 AM on May 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
How long are they expected to wait there on red before it eventually turns green even for them? Or does it just remain red indefinitely in that case?
My guess would be it becomes a regular red light and turns green again after 30 seconds or whatever is normal. The idea is to make the driver slow down, which is what happens in this set up.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 5:58 AM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
My guess would be it becomes a regular red light and turns green again after 30 seconds or whatever is normal. The idea is to make the driver slow down, which is what happens in this set up.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 5:58 AM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
That is a whole lot of weird whataboutisms
I don't mean to be snarky about the initiative, but presumably there will be some drivers who approach the light too fast (otherwise what would be the point?). The article doesn't explain how long they'll be held on red, and all my other questions spring from that.
posted by Paul Slade at 5:59 AM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't mean to be snarky about the initiative, but presumably there will be some drivers who approach the light too fast (otherwise what would be the point?). The article doesn't explain how long they'll be held on red, and all my other questions spring from that.
posted by Paul Slade at 5:59 AM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
This sounds awesome. Also, it would be shot out where I live, drivers are so entitled.
posted by eustatic at 6:02 AM on May 9, 2023
posted by eustatic at 6:02 AM on May 9, 2023
.....What if someone is in the crosswalk when a speed-limit driver is rolling up?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:08 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:08 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
There was a little thing lately I saw that showed drivers being much, much better behaved when pedestrians were holding a brick. Personally I am in favour of this approach.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:15 AM on May 9, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:15 AM on May 9, 2023 [27 favorites]
.....What if someone is in the crosswalk when a speed-limit driver is rolling up?
That's kind of orthogonal to this issue. This system can be put places with or without crosswalks. If A crosswalk is present or if someone's crossing the street, drivers are obligated to stop anyway (and if they're going the speed limit, presumably that's set with the possibility of people crossing in mind, so it's not as dangerous of a situation if this light weren't there).
Also, if there's a crosswalk, there's nothing that says there can't be a crossing button that just makes the light go red so someone can cross.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:18 AM on May 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
That's kind of orthogonal to this issue. This system can be put places with or without crosswalks. If A crosswalk is present or if someone's crossing the street, drivers are obligated to stop anyway (and if they're going the speed limit, presumably that's set with the possibility of people crossing in mind, so it's not as dangerous of a situation if this light weren't there).
Also, if there's a crosswalk, there's nothing that says there can't be a crossing button that just makes the light go red so someone can cross.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:18 AM on May 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
.....What if someone is in the crosswalk when a speed-limit driver is rolling up?
In the video linked to the article, there is no crosswalk, so presumably they haven't worked that out yet.
If A crosswalk is present or if someone's crossing the street, drivers are obligated to stop anyway
While technically true, it doesn't always - or even often - work out that way. I am extremely reticent to presume ROW as a pedestrian in a crosswalk, mostly because I'd rather be wrong than dead.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:21 AM on May 9, 2023
In the video linked to the article, there is no crosswalk, so presumably they haven't worked that out yet.
If A crosswalk is present or if someone's crossing the street, drivers are obligated to stop anyway
While technically true, it doesn't always - or even often - work out that way. I am extremely reticent to presume ROW as a pedestrian in a crosswalk, mostly because I'd rather be wrong than dead.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:21 AM on May 9, 2023
Under the current New York City driving regime, drivers would simply run the red light. Looks like a boon to Brossard, though!
posted by Captaintripps at 6:22 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Captaintripps at 6:22 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, where I live, people would just run the red light.
But I still think it's a good idea.
posted by NotLost at 6:22 AM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
But I still think it's a good idea.
posted by NotLost at 6:22 AM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
“Fines might be effective, but it’s effective after-the-fact,” says Mayor Assaad. “The beauty of FRED is we reward good behavior, and it’s immediate. It doesn’t record any private information, it just detects that the vehicle is coming and measures its speed. So it’s a carrot instead of a stick.”
Given the bizarre level of skepticism and antagonism to this simple plan, perhaps the American version should have stop lights that pull a gun on aggressive drivers and fire a few warning shots?
posted by AlSweigart at 6:29 AM on May 9, 2023 [28 favorites]
Given the bizarre level of skepticism and antagonism to this simple plan, perhaps the American version should have stop lights that pull a gun on aggressive drivers and fire a few warning shots?
posted by AlSweigart at 6:29 AM on May 9, 2023 [28 favorites]
showed drivers being much, much better behaved when pedestrians were holding a brick.
I went looking, best I can find in a minute is this fine TikTok submission to the Reddit Journal of FuckCars. (I don't know why I was hoping for some sort of serious sociology study but I am certain such a thing would play out the same :)
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:37 AM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I went looking, best I can find in a minute is this fine TikTok submission to the Reddit Journal of FuckCars. (I don't know why I was hoping for some sort of serious sociology study but I am certain such a thing would play out the same :)
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:37 AM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm not so keen on a citywide network to monitor traffic behavior and deal out punishments
I didn't used to be, but these days, I am. Driving behavior seems much worse since after the pandemic, and people here in Indianapolis so routinely run stop lights that one must approach every intersection with caution no matter what the light says. But intersections are easy to monitor for this dangerous behavior and every single driver that puts lives at risk that way should be held accountable until their behavior changes.
posted by Gelatin at 6:43 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I didn't used to be, but these days, I am. Driving behavior seems much worse since after the pandemic, and people here in Indianapolis so routinely run stop lights that one must approach every intersection with caution no matter what the light says. But intersections are easy to monitor for this dangerous behavior and every single driver that puts lives at risk that way should be held accountable until their behavior changes.
posted by Gelatin at 6:43 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
This has been a thing in Spain for decades, specially when entering a small town. There are no crosswalks in these lights, but there could be up ahead (in Spain cars must yield to pedestrians waiting at a crosswalk).
posted by valdesm at 6:45 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by valdesm at 6:45 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
(How the design of corners affects speed is a blog post that might not be meaty enough for its own FPP, but then people reading this post might also be interested.)
posted by box at 6:48 AM on May 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by box at 6:48 AM on May 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Given the bizarre level of skepticism and antagonism to this simple plan, perhaps the American version should have stop lights that pull a gun on aggressive drivers and fire a few warning shots?
My skepticism comes from living somewhere where the social norms around driving, such as they are, appear to be just about completely broken down. There's no road design changes, no real increase in automated enforcement, and no traditional enforcement. Stop signs are suggestions. Red lights might as well be green. Curb cuts are nothing special and crosswalks are another place to park. As is the sidewalk. People routinely register their cars out-of-state or use fake paper plates. Or more brazenly in 2023, just drive with no plates at all.
So, to me, a red light that turns green when people slow down is not cognizant of the current behaviour of drivers where I live. I'm sure it will continue to work in Brossard.
posted by Captaintripps at 6:51 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
My skepticism comes from living somewhere where the social norms around driving, such as they are, appear to be just about completely broken down. There's no road design changes, no real increase in automated enforcement, and no traditional enforcement. Stop signs are suggestions. Red lights might as well be green. Curb cuts are nothing special and crosswalks are another place to park. As is the sidewalk. People routinely register their cars out-of-state or use fake paper plates. Or more brazenly in 2023, just drive with no plates at all.
So, to me, a red light that turns green when people slow down is not cognizant of the current behaviour of drivers where I live. I'm sure it will continue to work in Brossard.
posted by Captaintripps at 6:51 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
This sounds awesome. Also, it would be shot out where I live, drivers are so entitled.
We are less gun-happy where I live but yes, many people who pride themselves on their law and order stance (and who think any transgression of the law should be punished to more than the fullest extent of the law) become big proponents of Sticking It to The Man where photo radar cameras and the like are concerned.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:53 AM on May 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
We are less gun-happy where I live but yes, many people who pride themselves on their law and order stance (and who think any transgression of the law should be punished to more than the fullest extent of the law) become big proponents of Sticking It to The Man where photo radar cameras and the like are concerned.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:53 AM on May 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
In Ottawa we have speed cameras in school zones that ticket you for going 1 km over the limit. Those certainly work, as the speed in school zones with cameras is now usually 5 km below the limit. They've resulted in over a quarter million speeding ticket. and the city has had to hire additional staff to deal with all the tickets. My wife is a teacher, so I know sooner or later we'll probably get dinged for 1 km over the limit. I would much prefer the Quebec red-light system; same results but less punitive.
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:04 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:04 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I went looking, best I can find in a minute is this fine TikTok submission to the Reddit Journal of FuckCars.
It's available in longer form here.
posted by mhoye at 7:05 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's available in longer form here.
posted by mhoye at 7:05 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
.....What if someone is in the crosswalk when a speed-limit driver is rolling up?
" it’s not capable of controlling traffic at intersections," - this is right in the middle of a block so presumably there's no one crossing there (not maybe the best assumption with kids but that's true of all kinds of barriers.)
I'm curious how this works because it sounds like a good idea to me.
In Toronto they've installed a whole whack of speeding ticket cameras, usually well-delineated with a sign that they are in use and sometimes with helpful signs that tell you your speed as you approach them. I go past 7 on my way to work, and they have very, very clearly had a big impact on people staying at about the speed limit. There are a few people that speed in between, but since the traffic has slowed down (it used to be people regularly went about 10km over), it's overall reduced the speed in the areas I'm in.
My skepticism comes from living somewhere where the social norms around driving, such as they are, appear to be just about completely broken down.
We're not there yet, at least not in the areas I regularly drive, but man that would be stressful. :(
posted by warriorqueen at 7:06 AM on May 9, 2023
" it’s not capable of controlling traffic at intersections," - this is right in the middle of a block so presumably there's no one crossing there (not maybe the best assumption with kids but that's true of all kinds of barriers.)
I'm curious how this works because it sounds like a good idea to me.
In Toronto they've installed a whole whack of speeding ticket cameras, usually well-delineated with a sign that they are in use and sometimes with helpful signs that tell you your speed as you approach them. I go past 7 on my way to work, and they have very, very clearly had a big impact on people staying at about the speed limit. There are a few people that speed in between, but since the traffic has slowed down (it used to be people regularly went about 10km over), it's overall reduced the speed in the areas I'm in.
My skepticism comes from living somewhere where the social norms around driving, such as they are, appear to be just about completely broken down.
We're not there yet, at least not in the areas I regularly drive, but man that would be stressful. :(
posted by warriorqueen at 7:06 AM on May 9, 2023
If they want a carrot-and-stick solution, they could combine the speed stop lights with red-light cameras. That would quickly put an end to anyone trying to run them.
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:11 AM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:11 AM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Or install tire spikes that engage when the light is red.
posted by Mitheral at 7:14 AM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 7:14 AM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Very cool, and better than speed bumps which are noisy for neighbors and less than ideal during winter.
I'm not so keen on a citywide network to monitor traffic behavior and deal out punishments
I so am, if we want road safety for all users the rules need to be actively enforced. Asking is just not enough, everybody thinks their little transgression is ok. We have the means to do this indiscriminetely, we should do it.
What if someone is in the crosswalk when a speed-limit driver is rolling up?
If it's a pedestrian crossing, they have priority. But there's no crossing on this light, and no cross street, so no light to wait for to get right of way. I assume if there was an 'on request' priority crosswalk the light would stay red for the fixed duration.
This was done to slow traffic around a school, there's nowhere special to go to on the other side just a house. Further down the street at intersections there are priority crossings.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:20 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not so keen on a citywide network to monitor traffic behavior and deal out punishments
I so am, if we want road safety for all users the rules need to be actively enforced. Asking is just not enough, everybody thinks their little transgression is ok. We have the means to do this indiscriminetely, we should do it.
What if someone is in the crosswalk when a speed-limit driver is rolling up?
If it's a pedestrian crossing, they have priority. But there's no crossing on this light, and no cross street, so no light to wait for to get right of way. I assume if there was an 'on request' priority crosswalk the light would stay red for the fixed duration.
This was done to slow traffic around a school, there's nowhere special to go to on the other side just a house. Further down the street at intersections there are priority crossings.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:20 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
In Ottawa we have speed cameras in school zones that ticket you for going 1 km over the limit. Those certainly work, as the speed in school zones with cameras is now usually 5 km below the limit.
No shit, I'd be cautious too. 1 km over the limit is very punitive and a bit unrealistic with regards to actual precision of speed measurement available to the driver.
I would have lowered the limit to 25km/h and set the radar at 30km/h (assuming 30 km/h was the original speed). Similar effect, but quite a bit fairer, we tell you how fast you should go, but we give you a bit or margin for error, and it's more in line with the way we usual enforce the speeding limit rules.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:30 AM on May 9, 2023
No shit, I'd be cautious too. 1 km over the limit is very punitive and a bit unrealistic with regards to actual precision of speed measurement available to the driver.
I would have lowered the limit to 25km/h and set the radar at 30km/h (assuming 30 km/h was the original speed). Similar effect, but quite a bit fairer, we tell you how fast you should go, but we give you a bit or margin for error, and it's more in line with the way we usual enforce the speeding limit rules.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:30 AM on May 9, 2023
1 km over the limit is very punitive and a bit unrealistic with regards to actual precision of speed measurement available to the driver.
It's been fairly common, if not universal, for quite a while now that speedometers in cars are set to read slightly higher than vehicle speed. Reads 25mph when you're doing 22, etc. Probably mostly for liability reasons. My Kia and hubby's Mazda both read about 3mph fast, as verified by GPS and by speed-indicating warning signs. If you did get a ticket for 1km/h over, you already had the needle well above the mark.
posted by xedrik at 7:42 AM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's been fairly common, if not universal, for quite a while now that speedometers in cars are set to read slightly higher than vehicle speed. Reads 25mph when you're doing 22, etc. Probably mostly for liability reasons. My Kia and hubby's Mazda both read about 3mph fast, as verified by GPS and by speed-indicating warning signs. If you did get a ticket for 1km/h over, you already had the needle well above the mark.
posted by xedrik at 7:42 AM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
1 km over the limit is very punitive and a bit unrealistic with regards to actual precision of speed measurement available to the driver.
I'm baffled by this kind of thinking; if drivers don't have the information at the precision required to obey a safety law, then the onus is on them to ensure they leave a margin of safely. The speed limit on a road is not an inalienable right to drive at roughly that speed plus or minus, it is intended to be the fastest speed that can safely be driven under ideal conditions.
posted by Superilla at 7:44 AM on May 9, 2023 [18 favorites]
I'm baffled by this kind of thinking; if drivers don't have the information at the precision required to obey a safety law, then the onus is on them to ensure they leave a margin of safely. The speed limit on a road is not an inalienable right to drive at roughly that speed plus or minus, it is intended to be the fastest speed that can safely be driven under ideal conditions.
posted by Superilla at 7:44 AM on May 9, 2023 [18 favorites]
I can imagine doing this on stroads everywhere.
The lights detect if the oncoming traffic is speeding. If it is, the light switches to red earlier (after a decent yellow period), or delays switching from red to green. If it isn't, the light stays green.
Cars who speed just happen to always miss green lights; the more you speed, the more red lights you catch. People who don't speed keep on catching them.
No speed cameras at all. Just speed radars hooked up to traffic lights.
You might have to add camera enforcing of the red lights. But that seems less draconian somehow?
posted by NotAYakk at 7:46 AM on May 9, 2023
The lights detect if the oncoming traffic is speeding. If it is, the light switches to red earlier (after a decent yellow period), or delays switching from red to green. If it isn't, the light stays green.
Cars who speed just happen to always miss green lights; the more you speed, the more red lights you catch. People who don't speed keep on catching them.
No speed cameras at all. Just speed radars hooked up to traffic lights.
You might have to add camera enforcing of the red lights. But that seems less draconian somehow?
posted by NotAYakk at 7:46 AM on May 9, 2023
What's supposed to happen when a speeding driver reaches the light?
They never actually get there because Xeno's paradox. That's just science.
How long are they expected to wait there on red before it eventually turns green even for them?
seconds of red = 1.5^(km/h over limit)
Won't most speeding drivers just get frustrated and drive off again no matter what colour the light is?
The Device will prevent that.
Won't those who regularly use the route just speed through it regardless once they realise how the system works?
Oh, the Other Device will very easily prevent that.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:06 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
They never actually get there because Xeno's paradox. That's just science.
How long are they expected to wait there on red before it eventually turns green even for them?
seconds of red = 1.5^(km/h over limit)
Won't most speeding drivers just get frustrated and drive off again no matter what colour the light is?
The Device will prevent that.
Won't those who regularly use the route just speed through it regardless once they realise how the system works?
Oh, the Other Device will very easily prevent that.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:06 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's been fairly common, if not universal, for quite a while now that speedometers in cars are set to read slightly higher than vehicle speed. Reads 25mph when you're doing 22, etc. Probably mostly for liability reasons. My Kia and hubby's Mazda both read about 3mph fast, as verified by GPS and by speed-indicating warning signs. If you did get a ticket for 1km/h over, you already had the needle well above the mark.
Mine does that too, at least on highway speeds. Not sure at that speed. This might be true on a lot/most models.
I'm baffled by this kind of thinking; if drivers don't have the information at the precision required to obey a safety law, then the onus is on them to ensure they leave a margin of safely. The speed limit on a road is not an inalienable right to drive at roughly that speed plus or minus, it is intended to be the fastest speed that can safely be driven under ideal conditions.
I stand by my comment. It's how speed limits are enforced right now, I think it's better to be consistent and doing it this way you get fined when the transgression is bigger and this makes it much harder to contest based on technicalities. You do achieve the same result, just with less excuses and whining about 'I was only going 1km/h over the limit!!!!!'.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:07 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mine does that too, at least on highway speeds. Not sure at that speed. This might be true on a lot/most models.
I'm baffled by this kind of thinking; if drivers don't have the information at the precision required to obey a safety law, then the onus is on them to ensure they leave a margin of safely. The speed limit on a road is not an inalienable right to drive at roughly that speed plus or minus, it is intended to be the fastest speed that can safely be driven under ideal conditions.
I stand by my comment. It's how speed limits are enforced right now, I think it's better to be consistent and doing it this way you get fined when the transgression is bigger and this makes it much harder to contest based on technicalities. You do achieve the same result, just with less excuses and whining about 'I was only going 1km/h over the limit!!!!!'.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:07 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not so keen on a citywide network to monitor traffic behavior and deal out punishments
... though, devil's advocate, why not? When I used to drive to work I passed through 5-6 speed monitoring cameras which issued you a fine and demerit points if you exceeded the speed limit by 5kmph or ran a red light There are also cameras which scan and detect mobile phone usage, and automated vehicle plate scanners that look for expired / suspended / stolen / wanted vehicle registrations.
Though, honestly, if the state speed limit is 100kmph then I'd rather cars just got sold with a hardware locked speed limiter. There's no argument for the "right" for a person to drive at 150kmph on a public road and endanger everyone else.
posted by xdvesper at 8:39 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
... though, devil's advocate, why not? When I used to drive to work I passed through 5-6 speed monitoring cameras which issued you a fine and demerit points if you exceeded the speed limit by 5kmph or ran a red light There are also cameras which scan and detect mobile phone usage, and automated vehicle plate scanners that look for expired / suspended / stolen / wanted vehicle registrations.
Though, honestly, if the state speed limit is 100kmph then I'd rather cars just got sold with a hardware locked speed limiter. There's no argument for the "right" for a person to drive at 150kmph on a public road and endanger everyone else.
posted by xdvesper at 8:39 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I recently received an expensive camera ticket in the mail for driving 30 mph in a 20 mph school zone. I'm skeptical this is a correct ticket, because the area is 30 mph outside school-zone time windows, and this is the speed that I drive at through this area, precisely because of the camera. If I'd seen the school zone lights blinking, I'd have slowed down, if not noticed the traffic slowed down around me.
Still, I paid the ticket because I can't be arsed to subpoena the data I'd need, even though the municipality charges nearly 10% on top of the ticket as a "convenience fee" for using a common payment method. It smells like a revenue grab, which is worse for having several unregulated aspects and which may not even be working correctly or consistently. (Strangely enough, the ticket payment is listed as "fast food" in my credit card statement.)
At least what this town in Quebec is doing is thankfully limited to the logic of red/green lighting, if only for the time being. So even if it doesn't work correctly, the scope of the damage is limited to annoyance. Someone upthread mentioned violence against people of color, and I can only imagine some bright young enterprising Québécois politician down the road thinking about how to hook the camera's inner works up to Bill 21 with facial recognition or the like, just to garner a few votes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:46 AM on May 9, 2023
Still, I paid the ticket because I can't be arsed to subpoena the data I'd need, even though the municipality charges nearly 10% on top of the ticket as a "convenience fee" for using a common payment method. It smells like a revenue grab, which is worse for having several unregulated aspects and which may not even be working correctly or consistently. (Strangely enough, the ticket payment is listed as "fast food" in my credit card statement.)
At least what this town in Quebec is doing is thankfully limited to the logic of red/green lighting, if only for the time being. So even if it doesn't work correctly, the scope of the damage is limited to annoyance. Someone upthread mentioned violence against people of color, and I can only imagine some bright young enterprising Québécois politician down the road thinking about how to hook the camera's inner works up to Bill 21 with facial recognition or the like, just to garner a few votes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:46 AM on May 9, 2023
The speed limit on a road is not an inalienable right to drive at roughly that speed plus or minus, it is intended to be the fastest speed
This is really more (IMO) a point of cultural difference -- for example, in Switzerland the max speed is the max speed. If you exceed it at any time for any reason, say hello to massive fines. In other places (most of N. America) it's genuinely enforced as a mere guideline with a bunch of exceptions/corruptions that can apply depending on where you are, what's happening, and (let's be honest now) who you are. In still other places the speed limit is wholly irrelevant, and any limitations have to be physically applied rather than just stated on a road sign (e.g., many seemingly "main roads" in India have speed bumps that will destroy your car if you hit them at highway speeds, because people need to cross that road, and everyone knows just posting a speed limit won't slow anybody down, plus speed bumps can't be bribed).
posted by aramaic at 9:06 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is really more (IMO) a point of cultural difference -- for example, in Switzerland the max speed is the max speed. If you exceed it at any time for any reason, say hello to massive fines. In other places (most of N. America) it's genuinely enforced as a mere guideline with a bunch of exceptions/corruptions that can apply depending on where you are, what's happening, and (let's be honest now) who you are. In still other places the speed limit is wholly irrelevant, and any limitations have to be physically applied rather than just stated on a road sign (e.g., many seemingly "main roads" in India have speed bumps that will destroy your car if you hit them at highway speeds, because people need to cross that road, and everyone knows just posting a speed limit won't slow anybody down, plus speed bumps can't be bribed).
posted by aramaic at 9:06 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wonder if people are underestimating the shame factor of speeding in a school zone when they assume drivers will run the red lights? It’s the one thing that can reliably make most people terribly ashamed when they realize they’re doing it.
posted by Peach at 9:26 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Peach at 9:26 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is really more (IMO) a point of cultural difference -- for example, in Switzerland the max speed is the max speed. If you exceed it at any time for any reason, say hello to massive fines. In other places (most of N. America) it's genuinely enforced as a mere guideline with a bunch of exceptions/corruptions that can apply depending on where you are, what's happening, and (let's be honest now) who you are.
Fatalities per 100 million vehicle kilometres travelled: [2018 numbers, table 3.1 in this PDF]
Switzerland: 0.34
Canada: 0.46
United States: 0.70
At Swiss rates, that's 460 unnecessary deaths per year in Canada, and 18,770 unnecessary deaths in the United States.
Hell of a cultural difference.
I'm not ignorant of current traffic enforcement practice in North America, I'm saying that the idea that we should just let people fudge whether or not they obey the law and by how much has resulted in a normalization of deviance that kills thousands of people that don't need to die. If letting drivers skate by driving 35 in a 30 led to road death rates that were no worse than in places that had higher rates of enforcement, than I'd be fine with that. But it doesn't work; it's a stochastic massacre.
posted by Superilla at 9:41 AM on May 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
Fatalities per 100 million vehicle kilometres travelled: [2018 numbers, table 3.1 in this PDF]
Switzerland: 0.34
Canada: 0.46
United States: 0.70
At Swiss rates, that's 460 unnecessary deaths per year in Canada, and 18,770 unnecessary deaths in the United States.
Hell of a cultural difference.
I'm not ignorant of current traffic enforcement practice in North America, I'm saying that the idea that we should just let people fudge whether or not they obey the law and by how much has resulted in a normalization of deviance that kills thousands of people that don't need to die. If letting drivers skate by driving 35 in a 30 led to road death rates that were no worse than in places that had higher rates of enforcement, than I'd be fine with that. But it doesn't work; it's a stochastic massacre.
posted by Superilla at 9:41 AM on May 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
Nobody said cultural differences were a good idea necessarily, just that they're there and pretending it's all Just Science And Math Why Can't You Savages Be Like We Are is shortsighted at best.
posted by aramaic at 10:00 AM on May 9, 2023
posted by aramaic at 10:00 AM on May 9, 2023
> Paul Slade: "Or does it just remain red indefinitely in that case?"
Yes, this is also the world's first single-use traffic signal.
posted by mhum at 10:27 AM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yes, this is also the world's first single-use traffic signal.
posted by mhum at 10:27 AM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Fair point.
posted by Paul Slade at 10:54 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Paul Slade at 10:54 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's been fairly common, if not universal, for quite a while now that speedometers in cars are set to read slightly higher than vehicle speed.
That probably explains why the speed I see on Google Maps is consistently two mph higher than the speed on the speedometer. I had been assuming it was measurement variance with the signal trip back and forth from the GPS satellite.
posted by COD at 11:05 AM on May 9, 2023
That probably explains why the speed I see on Google Maps is consistently two mph higher than the speed on the speedometer. I had been assuming it was measurement variance with the signal trip back and forth from the GPS satellite.
posted by COD at 11:05 AM on May 9, 2023
I'm not ignorant of current traffic enforcement practice in North America, I'm saying that the idea that we should just let people fudge whether or not they obey the law and by how much has resulted in a normalization of deviance that kills thousands of people that don't need to die. If letting drivers skate by driving 35 in a 30 led to road death rates that were no worse than in places that had higher rates of enforcement, than I'd be fine with that. But it doesn't work; it's a stochastic massacre.
I'd wager a lot of money that the difference in fatalities is not attributable to people going 1km/h over the limit but because Switzerland has a ton more speeding cameras to enforce their limits than there are in N/A. I'm all in for more cameras, they work, and there's little point in having an actual police officer deliver the fine.
But 30km/h max with zero tolerance or 25km/h max with 5km/h tolerance.... same upper limit, similar average speed, fits the current mental framework of how we perceive speed limits, it doesn't need a multi decade campaign to change who we think about this, also diminishes grievances because even if in the end it's the same thing, it looks more lenient.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:19 AM on May 9, 2023
I'd wager a lot of money that the difference in fatalities is not attributable to people going 1km/h over the limit but because Switzerland has a ton more speeding cameras to enforce their limits than there are in N/A. I'm all in for more cameras, they work, and there's little point in having an actual police officer deliver the fine.
But 30km/h max with zero tolerance or 25km/h max with 5km/h tolerance.... same upper limit, similar average speed, fits the current mental framework of how we perceive speed limits, it doesn't need a multi decade campaign to change who we think about this, also diminishes grievances because even if in the end it's the same thing, it looks more lenient.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:19 AM on May 9, 2023
I think it'd be an experiment worth trying in the US. Beats saying "it'll never work" and not doing a damn thing. (That attitude has been working so well for all our other problems after all.)
To be frank, we kind of already have something a little like this; several of the speed limit signs near where I live have a speed sensor and a readout showing your current speed which flashes when you're significantly over the limit (~5mph over in my experience). The main difference here is that this changes the immediate consequences of ignoring it from ignoring an advisory to ignoring the rules of the road beyond just speeding.
posted by Aleyn at 11:55 AM on May 9, 2023
To be frank, we kind of already have something a little like this; several of the speed limit signs near where I live have a speed sensor and a readout showing your current speed which flashes when you're significantly over the limit (~5mph over in my experience). The main difference here is that this changes the immediate consequences of ignoring it from ignoring an advisory to ignoring the rules of the road beyond just speeding.
posted by Aleyn at 11:55 AM on May 9, 2023
The UK has a system that I am honestly in love with:average speed cameras. Doesn't matter if you slow down for the camera, if you travel too fast overall, you get fined. Put them up on either end of a street known for speeders, the reason to use the street as a short cut goes away. So yes, this is nice and cute. And I'm glad that there's this rather than nothing. But I'd really like to see a system that keeps the light red for however much time you're "saving." Remove any and all benefits to speeding
Maybe I'm just a little bitter, as the friendliness of anyone in my new city vanishes the moment they're behind the wheel. It leaves one a mite vindictive.
posted by Hactar at 1:27 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe I'm just a little bitter, as the friendliness of anyone in my new city vanishes the moment they're behind the wheel. It leaves one a mite vindictive.
posted by Hactar at 1:27 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
My skepticism comes from living somewhere where the social norms around driving, such as they are, appear to be just about completely broken down.
This is true in the Bay Area as well. Since the pandemic being on a road has gotten a lot scarier because enough car drivers do not give a shit about signs, lanes, lights, or anyone else on the road.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:40 PM on May 9, 2023
This might be off topic, but Quebec might be more aware of traffic-aware challenges because of the larger proportion of the population with red-green color blindness. The lights aren't always in the typical vertical R Y G common to North America, and I'm pretty sure right turns on red lights are illegal throughout the province.
I'm personally waiting for bollards that popup instantly at every controlled intersection when the light turns red.
posted by morspin at 2:58 PM on May 9, 2023
I'm personally waiting for bollards that popup instantly at every controlled intersection when the light turns red.
posted by morspin at 2:58 PM on May 9, 2023
Widespread camera enforcement will probably help overall but, as mentioned above, there now seem to be a non-trivial number people obscuring, going without, or using fake paper plates. So it would seem that the way to fix that is to heavily increase the penalties for such things…except the police don’t seem to currently enforce even the existing laws to any real degree, or, in some cases are off duty perpetrators. So until that is dealt with, the most dangerous people are going to continue to do an end run around camera enforcement.
posted by delicious-luncheon at 3:08 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by delicious-luncheon at 3:08 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sweden routinely separates pedestrian crossings into one-lane-at-a-time with concrete safety islands between each. And in particularly bad places I saw a 'speed trough' that was radar-actuated. Drive over the limit and a mechanism drops down creating a very shocking bump for that particular driver.
In recent comedy my favorite is the Vancouver banana barrier brouhaha.
posted by anthill at 3:39 PM on May 9, 2023
In recent comedy my favorite is the Vancouver banana barrier brouhaha.
posted by anthill at 3:39 PM on May 9, 2023
Where I live, the usual approach to this kind of thing is speed bumps. A light that only turns green when you drive up to it slowly seems like a much better option.
So there is a the cute little area of the city where they want more pedestrians and shopping and slower traffic where I live. They've done all the proper road design things to encourage slower traffic including speedbumps. At one side of this bridge there is a speedbump and another is at the other side of the bridge. I was crossing the bridge on foot the other day and watched as car after car basically had to slam on their breaks as they approached the second speed bump at the terminus of the bridge, because as soon as they crossed the first speed bump they gunned it to the second. The bridge has an arch but, it's uncalled for. I wonder how this could work for an area like this. Anything is better than the worthless bumps.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 4:14 PM on May 9, 2023
So there is a the cute little area of the city where they want more pedestrians and shopping and slower traffic where I live. They've done all the proper road design things to encourage slower traffic including speedbumps. At one side of this bridge there is a speedbump and another is at the other side of the bridge. I was crossing the bridge on foot the other day and watched as car after car basically had to slam on their breaks as they approached the second speed bump at the terminus of the bridge, because as soon as they crossed the first speed bump they gunned it to the second. The bridge has an arch but, it's uncalled for. I wonder how this could work for an area like this. Anything is better than the worthless bumps.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 4:14 PM on May 9, 2023
I don't have much to add - I think this is a great idea - Brossard is my hometown, and the elementary school I attended is a few blocks away from this light. I think it's an awesome idea.
Anything to make car drivers at least take notice and consider their actions is a good thing. I walked/biked to that school for 2 years.
Remember that just across the river in Montréal proper, it is illegal to turn right on a red light because Montréal drivers can't be trusted. In Brossard though it is alright. I get so anxious as a pedestrian at intersections going to visit my parents back home.
posted by mephisjo at 5:36 PM on May 9, 2023
Anything to make car drivers at least take notice and consider their actions is a good thing. I walked/biked to that school for 2 years.
Remember that just across the river in Montréal proper, it is illegal to turn right on a red light because Montréal drivers can't be trusted. In Brossard though it is alright. I get so anxious as a pedestrian at intersections going to visit my parents back home.
posted by mephisjo at 5:36 PM on May 9, 2023
So it would seem that the way to fix that is to heavily increase the penalties for such things…except the police don’t seem to currently enforce even the existing laws to any real degree, or, in some cases are off duty perpetrators. So until that is dealt with, the most dangerous people are going to continue to do an end run around camera enforcement.That was my thought, too. I’d love to see tons of these but I live in Washington DC where it’s become normal to see cars with really obvious fake paper tags, two-inch prisms, or even retractable plates / covers or simply Maryland/Virginia plates secure in the knowledge that their states refuse to enforce DC tickets so red lights are optional as long as you have off-street parking. The police have been on soft-strike since people hurt their feelings by suggesting they shouldn’t be above the law, so unless you physically hit them they’re not going to stop you for any traffic offense. This does seem to be working as a way to rally voters against police accountability so I’m not expecting a sudden shift to appropriate use of state power.
posted by adamsc at 7:35 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
There used to be a speed-triggered light on my daily commute here in lawless America, and hardly anyone ever ran the red. And this was in a location where you'd expect relatively more scofflaws, a pretty isolated area with very few pedestrians, and no vehicular cross-traffic. (I think they must've been testing the technology rather than targeting a problem intersection.)
Broadly speaking it worked. Every now and then someone would set it off, but most people were aware. Of course everyone immediately sped up after passing through the light.
posted by equalpants at 9:52 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Broadly speaking it worked. Every now and then someone would set it off, but most people were aware. Of course everyone immediately sped up after passing through the light.
posted by equalpants at 9:52 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
> morspin: "I'm pretty sure right turns on red lights are illegal throughout the province"
This was the case when I lived there pre-Y2K but is no longer the case (not sure exactly when it changed). In particular, right turn on red is indeed currently allowed in Brossard, though I think it remains not allowed on the island of Montreal.
posted by mhum at 10:16 PM on May 9, 2023
This was the case when I lived there pre-Y2K but is no longer the case (not sure exactly when it changed). In particular, right turn on red is indeed currently allowed in Brossard, though I think it remains not allowed on the island of Montreal.
posted by mhum at 10:16 PM on May 9, 2023
Oh, the Other Device will very easily prevent that.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace
eponystecialcircumstances
posted by away for regrooving at 11:54 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace
eponystecialcircumstances
posted by away for regrooving at 11:54 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
They might do some good if the trigger was a good distance away. Here it’s two or three full seconds of red before people obey them, and most of that is from going 45 in a 25 which means you can’t actually slow down in time, so you YOLO it.
If I hit the lottery and self driving cars were a thing, I’d buy a fleet that simply advanced on the green light change to absorb a few of these drivers. I can’t think of another way to get back to stopping on red.
posted by drowsy at 3:13 PM on May 10, 2023
If I hit the lottery and self driving cars were a thing, I’d buy a fleet that simply advanced on the green light change to absorb a few of these drivers. I can’t think of another way to get back to stopping on red.
posted by drowsy at 3:13 PM on May 10, 2023
My commute used to take me along sunset behind west los angeles to the pch. There's this one light that I could swear would only goes red if you came round the preceding corner a bit too quickly. But it started green, and if you floored it you could get the amber, and I am so glad I work from home now.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 8:30 PM on May 10, 2023
posted by inpHilltr8r at 8:30 PM on May 10, 2023
That probably explains why the speed I see on Google Maps is consistently two mph higher than the speed on the speedometer. I had been assuming it was measurement variance with the signal trip back and forth from the GPS satellite.
That's not how your GPS navigation system works. The satellites are not listening to you.
posted by achrise at 9:47 AM on May 12, 2023
That's not how your GPS navigation system works. The satellites are not listening to you.
posted by achrise at 9:47 AM on May 12, 2023
« Older Refresh your memory for the next big Zelda game. | $100B well spent Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
We already have signs that will tell you your current speed and give a gentle nudge to slow down. My favorite ones will display a smiley face if you're under the speed limit, but there are others that will say "Slow Down" if you're going too fast and display a courteous "Thank You" when you do.
Given the number of people who still tailgate me right past those signs, I'm thinking that the time for gentle nudges is over. There are some roads around here that used to have signs "Signals timed to require frequent stops" and I think this kind of mechanism is just an evolution on that concept. Go too fast, you'll get a red light, and your trip will actually take longer than if you just went the speed limit.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:31 AM on May 9, 2023 [14 favorites]