Training And Diet Are Simple Because Your Body Is Complex
May 9, 2023 8:46 AM Subscribe
Because your body is complex and redundant, training and nutrition can be simple. Short and sweet article about why you can relax about your exercise routine by Greg Nuckols at Stronger by Science. previously, previously.
Training according to:
Dumb guy - calorie deficit, protein and exercise
Smart guy - [tons of complicated diets, training regimens and science]
Sage guy - calorie deficit, protein and exercise
I know this guy is selling a brand as much as Dr. Atkins but "chill out and relax" is at least a refreshing one.
posted by Reyturner at 10:01 AM on May 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
Dumb guy - calorie deficit, protein and exercise
Smart guy - [tons of complicated diets, training regimens and science]
Sage guy - calorie deficit, protein and exercise
I know this guy is selling a brand as much as Dr. Atkins but "chill out and relax" is at least a refreshing one.
posted by Reyturner at 10:01 AM on May 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
It worries me that their car analogy is wrong -- lots of things can stop working on a car before the car stops working.
posted by Galvanic at 10:03 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Galvanic at 10:03 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not if the "one thing" is something like the gas line breaking.
or a brake line with gas in it
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:15 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
or a brake line with gas in it
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:15 AM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I like this. I think of humans as machines that turns garbage into energy, and energy into accomplishments. We are toxic, and we drag our toxic forms around leaking waste despite great injuries. We're incredibly well evolved to do this. Almost anything can go into our gas tank. Even our own bodies. And we're very efficient.
A few weeks ago at sedar I noticed everyone at the table had the same "I work on a laptop" upper shoulder slump. While an overall lack of fitness may reduce lifespan, lacking traps and hunching our shoulders probably won't.
posted by rebent at 10:44 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
A few weeks ago at sedar I noticed everyone at the table had the same "I work on a laptop" upper shoulder slump. While an overall lack of fitness may reduce lifespan, lacking traps and hunching our shoulders probably won't.
posted by rebent at 10:44 AM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not if the "one thing" is something like the gas line breaking
Yes, that’s why I said “lots of things” not “anything”
You could also make that point for humans.
posted by Galvanic at 12:44 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, that’s why I said “lots of things” not “anything”
You could also make that point for humans.
posted by Galvanic at 12:44 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Simple? Sure. Easy? Ha.
I feel like the flip side of this is all the ways your vastly redundant body systems can thwart your efforts to make change. Short of just plain starvation/constant exercise (which your body will also fight you on the minute you let up) you will at some point feel betrayed when a given strategy stops working (if we're talking about weight loss anyway).
Which is great for a species that needs to eat omnivorously in a host of different environments, we are the product of our ancestors' bodies determination to keep going during episodes of low food availability. The fat your body clings to once kept sixth-great-grandma alive. In evolutionary terms, the fact that you don't actually need as much fat as you have and it's getting in your way is just an unimportant side effect.
I honestly feel as much admiration as frustration with my body over this stuff. It's doing its best for me, as far as it knows.
We'll keep inventing pills and injections and surgeries because it bothers us aesthetically to be fat, and also we attach a moral value to body size and shape.
And if you're going to live longer, too much fat (whatever that means on your body) may at some point cause you other health issues.
At some point we'll probably find a medical way to outwit our bodies, though they have proven far tougher and smarter than we thought they would be.
(and also maybe we don't know how he pollution of our water and food and air with various long-lasting novel substances has affected our bodies--we may or may not figure that out as well).
In the meantime, more of us may exercise and diet, but only a few will actually stay thin via that method for very long. We can be stronger, more flexible, and healthier overall, but consistent thinness is not a thing lots of people will achieve without medical intervention.
posted by emjaybee at 1:03 PM on May 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
I feel like the flip side of this is all the ways your vastly redundant body systems can thwart your efforts to make change. Short of just plain starvation/constant exercise (which your body will also fight you on the minute you let up) you will at some point feel betrayed when a given strategy stops working (if we're talking about weight loss anyway).
Which is great for a species that needs to eat omnivorously in a host of different environments, we are the product of our ancestors' bodies determination to keep going during episodes of low food availability. The fat your body clings to once kept sixth-great-grandma alive. In evolutionary terms, the fact that you don't actually need as much fat as you have and it's getting in your way is just an unimportant side effect.
I honestly feel as much admiration as frustration with my body over this stuff. It's doing its best for me, as far as it knows.
We'll keep inventing pills and injections and surgeries because it bothers us aesthetically to be fat, and also we attach a moral value to body size and shape.
And if you're going to live longer, too much fat (whatever that means on your body) may at some point cause you other health issues.
At some point we'll probably find a medical way to outwit our bodies, though they have proven far tougher and smarter than we thought they would be.
(and also maybe we don't know how he pollution of our water and food and air with various long-lasting novel substances has affected our bodies--we may or may not figure that out as well).
In the meantime, more of us may exercise and diet, but only a few will actually stay thin via that method for very long. We can be stronger, more flexible, and healthier overall, but consistent thinness is not a thing lots of people will achieve without medical intervention.
posted by emjaybee at 1:03 PM on May 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
A few weeks ago at sedar I noticed everyone at the table had the same "I work on a laptop" upper shoulder slump. While an overall lack of fitness may reduce lifespan, lacking traps and hunching our shoulders probably won't.
Hmm. For me at least, lifespan is not the reason to work to counteract shoulder slump. There are aesthetic reasons, sure — and we shouldn't poo-poo them — but for me it's so I don't lose the ability to move like a young man. Mobility is quality of life.
The story at 20:00 of this Size, Strength, and Aging video gets at what I'm talking about when I defend training your trapezius muscle.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:44 PM on May 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Hmm. For me at least, lifespan is not the reason to work to counteract shoulder slump. There are aesthetic reasons, sure — and we shouldn't poo-poo them — but for me it's so I don't lose the ability to move like a young man. Mobility is quality of life.
The story at 20:00 of this Size, Strength, and Aging video gets at what I'm talking about when I defend training your trapezius muscle.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:44 PM on May 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I like this. I think of humans as machines that turns garbage into energy, and energy into accomplishments. We are toxic, and we drag our toxic forms around leaking waste despite great injuries. We're incredibly well evolved to do this. Almost anything can go into our gas tank. Even our own bodies. And we're very efficient.
This is only true when you're young. Once you're past the age where you should have already reproduced evolutions got next to nothing in your genes dedicated for you carrying on. All your early sins come back home to roost (mostly in your joints). At that point you're the millennium falcon and you best hope you can be your own Chewbacca and start looking after yourself.
That said the maintenance regimen for a decent physical life is a lot simpler than diet gurus make it out to be. Be active & get moderately strong (use it or lose it basically), avoid major quantities of carcinogens and eat a varied diet while avoiding too much junk food, figure out how to rest & sleep more and better.
posted by srboisvert at 1:47 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is only true when you're young. Once you're past the age where you should have already reproduced evolutions got next to nothing in your genes dedicated for you carrying on. All your early sins come back home to roost (mostly in your joints). At that point you're the millennium falcon and you best hope you can be your own Chewbacca and start looking after yourself.
That said the maintenance regimen for a decent physical life is a lot simpler than diet gurus make it out to be. Be active & get moderately strong (use it or lose it basically), avoid major quantities of carcinogens and eat a varied diet while avoiding too much junk food, figure out how to rest & sleep more and better.
posted by srboisvert at 1:47 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
The story at 20:00 of this Size, Strength, and Aging video yt gets at what I'm talking about when I defend training your trapezius muscle.
You want to train your traps later in life? Take up birding photography. Those cameras get heavy and the gotta get em all Pokémon Go nature of the hobby is compulsive. My traps, delts and shoulders are rocks after migration.
posted by srboisvert at 1:50 PM on May 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
You want to train your traps later in life? Take up birding photography. Those cameras get heavy and the gotta get em all Pokémon Go nature of the hobby is compulsive. My traps, delts and shoulders are rocks after migration.
posted by srboisvert at 1:50 PM on May 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
To be clear the people running that website are not interested in weight loss per se. They’re more about getting jacked.
posted by bq at 2:47 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bq at 2:47 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Short AND Sweet from not just Stronger by Science but Greg Nuckols himself? I was incredulous! But contrary to most of their stuff this really was short and sweet.
I'm a big fan of SBS and Greg. I bought their $10 powerlifting program bundle and have been using one program of another for a while and had used some of their free programs with success before that. Their macrofactor app is a great diet and nutrition app whether you're an athlete or not.
I'm a powerlifter, though I'm not terribly serious about it. I enjoy their content. Most of it is VERY deep similar in tone. That phrase "most people, most of the time" you see a couple of times here shows up a TON and most of the conclusions are similar in that they don't really recommend anyone change what they're already doing.
Their squat, deadlift, and bench press guides are also as in depth as any and worth a read if you perform those movements. Squat and deadlift in particular are about as natural as a movement can get and as exercise movements they're about the best bang for the buck you can get.
I very firmly believe everyone should do some form of strength or resistance training. Pilates, yoga, bodybuilding (or as we call it in powerlifting an "off-season program"), calisthenics, whatever.
Obviously I'm biased towards powerlifting. It does have some of the lowest injury rates of all the sports a person can participate in. Both men and women elite lifters get pretty equitable coverage (there are numerous SBS articles about how women don't really need to train much different or respond much differently than men). And it's honestly as close to a plutonic ideal of sportsmanship as sports get. I even saw this international event with the 93kg class men in Oslo Norway. They're on the last event, deadlifts, and the Norwegian lifter hits his last lift to put himself in 3rd and on the podium. Next up is this guy from Brazil. If he makes his lift he'll knock the Norwegian off the podium.
This being a powerlifting meet the crowd is, of course, chanting, "SKOL! SKOL! SKOL!" as he steps up to the bar. Just off to the left you can see the Norwegian chanting along with the crowd for this Brazilian to knock him off the podium!"
I've seen 90 year old women lifting a nearly empty bar get cheered for just as hard as the 242 pounder moving half a car. But seeing that same at the highest levels of the sport too was great.
Lots of good science backed resources, something like gender equality, extremely supportive competitive environments whatever your level of experience or strength? There's a lot to like!
I was fat my whole life until I started strength training at 33 and got into powerlifting specifically not long after that. I lost 85lbs and have since gained about 20 of it back on purpose! because I just feel healthier at ~200lbs. I still want to get a bit leaner but I'm in better shape now than when I started. I have blood tests that prove it and I've managed to get all the aches and pains that had been making themselves known reverse course.
That "I work on a laptop" thing is one of those. It's from sitting in that shoulders-forward position without moving much all day for years and years and it can cause pain the the top of the thoracic/bottom of the cervical spine area. I also slouched a lot which gave me lower back issues. It's not so much the slouching but the not-moving or changing position that's the problem. But I worked with a PT and it's getting better! On her advice I incorporated more rowing and other pulling movements as accessories in my training program and she showed me some yoga movements that work similarly to the straight PT movements we worked on.
It's also VERY common for people starting out in powerlifting to get caught up in the same kind of thinking. Obsessing over their training choices and following the latest in nutrition (there was a whole meme about chocolate milk right after strength training). While ignoring the far simpler things (effort, consistency, recovery) that make a far FAR bigger difference in their training.
Sorry this got so long but I got excited to see SBS show up on the blue and once powerlifters start talking about powerlifting we tend to go on a bit.
posted by VTX at 8:36 PM on May 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
I'm a big fan of SBS and Greg. I bought their $10 powerlifting program bundle and have been using one program of another for a while and had used some of their free programs with success before that. Their macrofactor app is a great diet and nutrition app whether you're an athlete or not.
I'm a powerlifter, though I'm not terribly serious about it. I enjoy their content. Most of it is VERY deep similar in tone. That phrase "most people, most of the time" you see a couple of times here shows up a TON and most of the conclusions are similar in that they don't really recommend anyone change what they're already doing.
Their squat, deadlift, and bench press guides are also as in depth as any and worth a read if you perform those movements. Squat and deadlift in particular are about as natural as a movement can get and as exercise movements they're about the best bang for the buck you can get.
I very firmly believe everyone should do some form of strength or resistance training. Pilates, yoga, bodybuilding (or as we call it in powerlifting an "off-season program"), calisthenics, whatever.
Obviously I'm biased towards powerlifting. It does have some of the lowest injury rates of all the sports a person can participate in. Both men and women elite lifters get pretty equitable coverage (there are numerous SBS articles about how women don't really need to train much different or respond much differently than men). And it's honestly as close to a plutonic ideal of sportsmanship as sports get. I even saw this international event with the 93kg class men in Oslo Norway. They're on the last event, deadlifts, and the Norwegian lifter hits his last lift to put himself in 3rd and on the podium. Next up is this guy from Brazil. If he makes his lift he'll knock the Norwegian off the podium.
This being a powerlifting meet the crowd is, of course, chanting, "SKOL! SKOL! SKOL!" as he steps up to the bar. Just off to the left you can see the Norwegian chanting along with the crowd for this Brazilian to knock him off the podium!"
I've seen 90 year old women lifting a nearly empty bar get cheered for just as hard as the 242 pounder moving half a car. But seeing that same at the highest levels of the sport too was great.
Lots of good science backed resources, something like gender equality, extremely supportive competitive environments whatever your level of experience or strength? There's a lot to like!
I was fat my whole life until I started strength training at 33 and got into powerlifting specifically not long after that. I lost 85lbs and have since gained about 20 of it back on purpose! because I just feel healthier at ~200lbs. I still want to get a bit leaner but I'm in better shape now than when I started. I have blood tests that prove it and I've managed to get all the aches and pains that had been making themselves known reverse course.
That "I work on a laptop" thing is one of those. It's from sitting in that shoulders-forward position without moving much all day for years and years and it can cause pain the the top of the thoracic/bottom of the cervical spine area. I also slouched a lot which gave me lower back issues. It's not so much the slouching but the not-moving or changing position that's the problem. But I worked with a PT and it's getting better! On her advice I incorporated more rowing and other pulling movements as accessories in my training program and she showed me some yoga movements that work similarly to the straight PT movements we worked on.
It's also VERY common for people starting out in powerlifting to get caught up in the same kind of thinking. Obsessing over their training choices and following the latest in nutrition (there was a whole meme about chocolate milk right after strength training). While ignoring the far simpler things (effort, consistency, recovery) that make a far FAR bigger difference in their training.
Sorry this got so long but I got excited to see SBS show up on the blue and once powerlifters start talking about powerlifting we tend to go on a bit.
posted by VTX at 8:36 PM on May 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
This is good! The trouble with debunking broscience is that it's usually not absolute nonsense, but rather that they put far too much weight on tiny effects or small individual studies.
They get obsessed with things like the exact timing of when you eat after a workout, the bioavailability of different protein types, when if those things matter, they matter such a tiny amount you can basically forget about them.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:27 AM on May 10, 2023
They get obsessed with things like the exact timing of when you eat after a workout, the bioavailability of different protein types, when if those things matter, they matter such a tiny amount you can basically forget about them.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:27 AM on May 10, 2023
I think "tiny" swings the pendulum perhaps too far against what are, at heart, useful aspects of physical culture.
Is it precisely true that there's a golden hour after a workout? No, and the actual mechanisms are fiendishly complex. But the habit of having a little protein and carbs after a workout is more useful than forgettable. It's sticky, easy to communicate, and is a good entry point to more workout-adjacent metis. The same goes for techniques like "six meals a day" – the reasoning isn't entirely sound, nonetheless it arrives at an effective conclusion for a hard problem.
We agree that folks shouldn't obsess over these things, but from the perspective of trying to construct a lifestyle and communicate effective habits we shouldn't discount things just because they aren't scientifically or logically optimal.
posted by daveliepmann at 5:53 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is it precisely true that there's a golden hour after a workout? No, and the actual mechanisms are fiendishly complex. But the habit of having a little protein and carbs after a workout is more useful than forgettable. It's sticky, easy to communicate, and is a good entry point to more workout-adjacent metis. The same goes for techniques like "six meals a day" – the reasoning isn't entirely sound, nonetheless it arrives at an effective conclusion for a hard problem.
We agree that folks shouldn't obsess over these things, but from the perspective of trying to construct a lifestyle and communicate effective habits we shouldn't discount things just because they aren't scientifically or logically optimal.
posted by daveliepmann at 5:53 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
OK, so I want to start some sort of ... holistic strength exercise. What should I be looking for? A branded class? Any old fitness coach at the Y?
posted by rebent at 6:17 AM on May 10, 2023
posted by rebent at 6:17 AM on May 10, 2023
> Any old fitness coach at the Y?
Yes! The Y can do that for you. YYMV but my Y has personal trainers you can hire for 30 minutes or an hour, or you can do a cheaper small group class, or if you're lucky there will be a free Introduction to Weights program. Go to the front desk and say you want to get strong and see what they offer.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:54 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes! The Y can do that for you. YYMV but my Y has personal trainers you can hire for 30 minutes or an hour, or you can do a cheaper small group class, or if you're lucky there will be a free Introduction to Weights program. Go to the front desk and say you want to get strong and see what they offer.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:54 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
holistic strength exercise.
You can get a lot of ideas if you Google "postural kyphosis bodyweight." They're all pretty much oriented around upper back strength, so it's a matter of taste and trial to find what works for you. As someone said once, "the best exercise is the one you do."
posted by rhizome at 2:12 PM on May 10, 2023
You can get a lot of ideas if you Google "postural kyphosis bodyweight." They're all pretty much oriented around upper back strength, so it's a matter of taste and trial to find what works for you. As someone said once, "the best exercise is the one you do."
posted by rhizome at 2:12 PM on May 10, 2023
But the habit of having a little protein and carbs after a workout is more useful than forgettable.
I disagree, unless your goals are specifically 'bro-ish' bodybuilding. Most people don't burn nearly enough calories at the gym for it to matter when they eat, because they aren't full time professional athletes. If you are hungry afterwards (and are not specifically trying to lose weight) then eat, or don't. If you are trying to lose weight, then you have to be very careful what you eat, because a normal workout doesn't actually burn that many calories, so it's really easy to out-eat your workout.
And very few people in the US are protein-deficient, so that doesn't matter either.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:54 PM on May 10, 2023
I disagree, unless your goals are specifically 'bro-ish' bodybuilding. Most people don't burn nearly enough calories at the gym for it to matter when they eat, because they aren't full time professional athletes. If you are hungry afterwards (and are not specifically trying to lose weight) then eat, or don't. If you are trying to lose weight, then you have to be very careful what you eat, because a normal workout doesn't actually burn that many calories, so it's really easy to out-eat your workout.
And very few people in the US are protein-deficient, so that doesn't matter either.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:54 PM on May 10, 2023
I want to start some sort of ... holistic strength exercise
Try some different things, form some preferences, figure out what you like and will stick with, then stick with that as long as you like doing it. It really doesn't matter than much specifically what you do, just start light/slow and have some kind progression you can follow. Whatever you land on, there is almost certainly some kind of beginner program that'll get you started. You still control your own effort so it's not like you have to go "full bro" to do a bodybuilding program, as an example.
Powerlifting is also very VERY welcoming to folks new to the sport or just general strength training. Lya Bravolli from France here on IG started out with almost nothing on the bar and she just broke some powerlifting records. ONE. OF. US. ONE. OF. US. :)
I disagree, unless your goals are specifically 'bro-ish' bodybuilding.
You're missing the point. It's not that timing really matters, it's that it's a very way to establish a habit that might get a person enough protein when they otherwise wouldn't. Trust me when I say that adequate protein is VERY important to recovery and sustainable progress (it'll really catch up to a person, ask me how I know!). 1g/1lb of bodyweight is about the MOST your body can make use of outside of elite athletes and PED use. That's whether you're doing strength training, cardio, or whatever else.
If you tell a person they need 150g of protein a day they might figure out how to make sure they're getting that. But if you tell a person "have a protein shake in the hour after you finish working out" (or whatever other protein source you might choose) and most people can stick with that and then they're more likely to get the protein they need.
posted by VTX at 5:59 PM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Try some different things, form some preferences, figure out what you like and will stick with, then stick with that as long as you like doing it. It really doesn't matter than much specifically what you do, just start light/slow and have some kind progression you can follow. Whatever you land on, there is almost certainly some kind of beginner program that'll get you started. You still control your own effort so it's not like you have to go "full bro" to do a bodybuilding program, as an example.
Powerlifting is also very VERY welcoming to folks new to the sport or just general strength training. Lya Bravolli from France here on IG started out with almost nothing on the bar and she just broke some powerlifting records. ONE. OF. US. ONE. OF. US. :)
I disagree, unless your goals are specifically 'bro-ish' bodybuilding.
You're missing the point. It's not that timing really matters, it's that it's a very way to establish a habit that might get a person enough protein when they otherwise wouldn't. Trust me when I say that adequate protein is VERY important to recovery and sustainable progress (it'll really catch up to a person, ask me how I know!). 1g/1lb of bodyweight is about the MOST your body can make use of outside of elite athletes and PED use. That's whether you're doing strength training, cardio, or whatever else.
If you tell a person they need 150g of protein a day they might figure out how to make sure they're getting that. But if you tell a person "have a protein shake in the hour after you finish working out" (or whatever other protein source you might choose) and most people can stick with that and then they're more likely to get the protein they need.
posted by VTX at 5:59 PM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
The_Veg, what's your athletic background? Because painting this kind of thing as only useful for "full time professional athletes" doesn't make sense to me. I've found it noticeably helpful at the amateur level for combat sports, strength training (which is only "bro-ish" to people who pathologically identify as an indoor kid), and field sports. (Admittedly, talking about sports generally instead of specifically S&C drifts from Greg's article's focus.)
Maybe we're getting tripped up because we're talking about two dimensions at once: whether a factor is essential, and whether a given method is useful.
Calorie intake, protein intake, and training volume are the essential factors of success in S&C. That doesn't mean that methods of achieving goals in these factors are useless. Arguing over 4x4 versus 3x5 is pointless, but 4x4 and 3x5 are still fine strategies for organizing training. It's useless to worry about trivialities like which supplements go in your post-workout shake, but having a little protein and carbs (titrated according to your goals) after a workout is a useful technique which follows directly from the high-level principles.
Are these methods essential? No, people can do fine by lifting intuitively instead of following a rep scheme; the difference between a sub-optimal rep scheme and one tailored to your goals is modest; people succeed with all sorts of diets and meal timings. But inessential is not useless, and having a physical culture "hook" to hang ideas on is helpful for many people.
I think we have a hard time with this because we monkeys have a hard time holding "the ideal" and "today's achievable" in our head simultaneously. We beat ourselves up for falling short, we use trivialities as distractions. If someone is going in a direction like that, Greg's advice is precisely what they need. At the same time, it's okay to have easy-to-follow templates.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:09 AM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe we're getting tripped up because we're talking about two dimensions at once: whether a factor is essential, and whether a given method is useful.
Calorie intake, protein intake, and training volume are the essential factors of success in S&C. That doesn't mean that methods of achieving goals in these factors are useless. Arguing over 4x4 versus 3x5 is pointless, but 4x4 and 3x5 are still fine strategies for organizing training. It's useless to worry about trivialities like which supplements go in your post-workout shake, but having a little protein and carbs (titrated according to your goals) after a workout is a useful technique which follows directly from the high-level principles.
Are these methods essential? No, people can do fine by lifting intuitively instead of following a rep scheme; the difference between a sub-optimal rep scheme and one tailored to your goals is modest; people succeed with all sorts of diets and meal timings. But inessential is not useless, and having a physical culture "hook" to hang ideas on is helpful for many people.
If you are hungry afterwards (and are not specifically trying to lose weight) then eat, or don't.It's not the end of the world to do the slightly suboptimal thing, sure. At the same time, the effect of doing something mildly better is not negligible. Hunger signals are often not to be trusted, especially after intense cardio efforts. Recovery habits are useful enough to preserve in the culture.
If you are trying to lose weight, then you have to be very careful what you eat, because a normal workout doesn't actually burn that many calories, so it's really easy to out-eat your workout.If we're talking about non-athletes, do you genuinely think that this population needs *fewer* fitness-adjacent techniques in their toolbox? These are people who almost by definition lack the habits to balance these high-level priorities. To me, "have a little protein right after a workout" or "you know post-workout shakes? do that, but cut back the carbs" are precisely the tricks to share with such a population, instead of leaving them to fend for themselves. Do you expect their existing eating habits to be good? Do you expect them to figure out a meal strategy from first principles?
I think we have a hard time with this because we monkeys have a hard time holding "the ideal" and "today's achievable" in our head simultaneously. We beat ourselves up for falling short, we use trivialities as distractions. If someone is going in a direction like that, Greg's advice is precisely what they need. At the same time, it's okay to have easy-to-follow templates.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:09 AM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
which is only "bro-ish" to people who pathologically identify as an indoor kid
I know what you're getting at but in reality lots of powerlifters are indoor kids. It's mostly done indoors, you have a lot of influence and control over the whole process, and it doesn't have to be social.
Arguing over 4x4 versus 3x5 is pointless
Yes, because the correct answer is "Both and..." As you do the exact same thing over and over again your body gets more well adapted to that specific thing and it stops being a novel stimulus. "Muscle confusion" is that concept run amok.
But when you're new it's just fine to pick one set/rep range and just add weight to each movement every week, optimizing more won't get you gains any faster. Once that stops working they need to optimize their training a little more so they'd switch to a program that has a more sophisticated progression scheme and do that until it stops working. As you train longer you start to get to a point where you need to optimize things to keep up your fastest rate of gains. People tend to get more serious about their sport as they go so it works out. But most people are just fine making the trade-off between optimal and gains. I could hire a coach that knows how to practically apply all the most up-to-date training and recovery practices and get as close to "optimal" for me as I can. But I can also accept a slower rate of gains and not care so much about each and every detail.
posted by VTX at 9:56 AM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know what you're getting at but in reality lots of powerlifters are indoor kids. It's mostly done indoors, you have a lot of influence and control over the whole process, and it doesn't have to be social.
Arguing over 4x4 versus 3x5 is pointless
Yes, because the correct answer is "Both and..." As you do the exact same thing over and over again your body gets more well adapted to that specific thing and it stops being a novel stimulus. "Muscle confusion" is that concept run amok.
But when you're new it's just fine to pick one set/rep range and just add weight to each movement every week, optimizing more won't get you gains any faster. Once that stops working they need to optimize their training a little more so they'd switch to a program that has a more sophisticated progression scheme and do that until it stops working. As you train longer you start to get to a point where you need to optimize things to keep up your fastest rate of gains. People tend to get more serious about their sport as they go so it works out. But most people are just fine making the trade-off between optimal and gains. I could hire a coach that knows how to practically apply all the most up-to-date training and recovery practices and get as close to "optimal" for me as I can. But I can also accept a slower rate of gains and not care so much about each and every detail.
posted by VTX at 9:56 AM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh lord, the last ten comments have been proving the point about brofitnesss. Yeesh.
posted by Galvanic at 2:47 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Galvanic at 2:47 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
How so?
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:09 PM on May 11, 2023
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:09 PM on May 11, 2023
I think “fitness-adjacent” was what really locked it in for me.
“Progression scheme” was pretty impressive as well.
posted by Galvanic at 3:19 PM on May 11, 2023
“Progression scheme” was pretty impressive as well.
posted by Galvanic at 3:19 PM on May 11, 2023
rebent, I don't know if it's the right fit for you, but the OP author has some writing which might help you get into strength training. There's the Complete Strength Training Guide (with a section for the New Lifter), or this shorter article. I'm intentionally linking to survey writing rather than practical advice like his programs because the practical advice is often highly specific to context.
Galvanic, go ahead, finish your thought! Do you think "progression scheme" is some ridiculous over-complicated term that the author of the this article would never use? Don't command-F that phrase on that "programs" link.
For some reason I'm reminded of one of the ways r/weightroom encourages productive discussion.
I find it ironic how the article makes an excellent and true point which gets immediately twisted into a hyperbolic, unsupportable version of itself ("every physical culture practice is forgettable"). Very similar dynamic to that behind e.g. "this rep scheme is useful, maybe try it in XYZ contexts" becoming "I've found the magic rep scheme".
posted by daveliepmann at 11:32 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Galvanic, go ahead, finish your thought! Do you think "progression scheme" is some ridiculous over-complicated term that the author of the this article would never use? Don't command-F that phrase on that "programs" link.
For some reason I'm reminded of one of the ways r/weightroom encourages productive discussion.
I find it ironic how the article makes an excellent and true point which gets immediately twisted into a hyperbolic, unsupportable version of itself ("every physical culture practice is forgettable"). Very similar dynamic to that behind e.g. "this rep scheme is useful, maybe try it in XYZ contexts" becoming "I've found the magic rep scheme".
posted by daveliepmann at 11:32 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
On the running forums, there's definitely a problem with people who are trying to just get started with running, and getting confused by advice that's either of tiny significance, meant for much more advanced runners, or complete nonsense. There's a steady stream of:
"Help! I've just started running and-
...I know you're supposed to run in Zone 2, but my watch says I keep going higher!"
...You're only supposed to breath through my nose, but I have to breathe through my mouth!"
...You're supposed to do a forefoot strike but I land with my heel first!"
...You're supposed to eat 2 hours before your run, but I feel sick after my roast beef and potatoes!"
None of that stuff matters to a beginner, if it matters at all.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:13 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Help! I've just started running and-
...I know you're supposed to run in Zone 2, but my watch says I keep going higher!"
...You're only supposed to breath through my nose, but I have to breathe through my mouth!"
...You're supposed to do a forefoot strike but I land with my heel first!"
...You're supposed to eat 2 hours before your run, but I feel sick after my roast beef and potatoes!"
None of that stuff matters to a beginner, if it matters at all.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:13 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
You think a beginner feeling sick during their run doesn't matter? You think it has no effect on whether they continue training? There is nothing to say to them on that point, no context or things to try? "Yeah, me too, it passes after a quarter mile", "it helps me to avoid fats in pre-workout meals", "try smaller meals" – is sharing these tricks only for advanced runners?
I agree that we shouldn't overwhelm beginners or let them distract themselves with excessive detail, but it's okay to share tips for the little stuff as long as the big picture is kept in mind.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:46 AM on May 12, 2023
I agree that we shouldn't overwhelm beginners or let them distract themselves with excessive detail, but it's okay to share tips for the little stuff as long as the big picture is kept in mind.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:46 AM on May 12, 2023
The point is that a beginner doesn't actually need to eat before a run. He is making himself feel sick by following inappropriate advice.
(Your body has enough glycogen to last about 2 hours of hard effort. If your run is more than that, it helps to eat. But a beginner can't run for 2 hours at hard effort anyway.)
But you're doing the brofitness thing. The guy's already been messed up by advice to do something unnecessary, and now you want to give him more complexity about fat content and meal size and duration...
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:58 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Your body has enough glycogen to last about 2 hours of hard effort. If your run is more than that, it helps to eat. But a beginner can't run for 2 hours at hard effort anyway.)
But you're doing the brofitness thing. The guy's already been messed up by advice to do something unnecessary, and now you want to give him more complexity about fat content and meal size and duration...
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:58 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
OK, I missed your emphasis on "you're supposed to", my bad. I won't defend my specific pretend advice because it wasn't my focus; I just threw some words at the wall. We agree that wrong advice and overly prescriptive advice are bad.
But obviously you know these tricks about meal timing and yadda yadda. You admit it's useful in some contexts. When is it okay to share that knowledge? I mean, what's makes this right and true advice:
"You're supposed to eat 2 hours before your run, but I feel sick after my roast beef and potatoes!" --> "You don't actually need to eat before a run." (Optional detail: "Your body has enough glycogen...")
and this useless bro bullshit:
"I'm famished after the gym, but I can't fit a meal into my schedule until later" --> "A good post-workout snack is some protein and some carbs." (Optional detail: "If you're on a cut then not so much carbs...")
?
My point about the pendulum is that folks in this thread who made the 80's movie jock/nerd false dichotomy into a central part of their identity seem to be saying that even admitting the usefulness of [a post-workout snack / knowing how to arrange meals in relation to workouts / the idea of rep schemes / the phrase "rep scheme"] is useless jock-coded foolishness.
posted by daveliepmann at 2:49 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
But obviously you know these tricks about meal timing and yadda yadda. You admit it's useful in some contexts. When is it okay to share that knowledge? I mean, what's makes this right and true advice:
"You're supposed to eat 2 hours before your run, but I feel sick after my roast beef and potatoes!" --> "You don't actually need to eat before a run." (Optional detail: "Your body has enough glycogen...")
and this useless bro bullshit:
"I'm famished after the gym, but I can't fit a meal into my schedule until later" --> "A good post-workout snack is some protein and some carbs." (Optional detail: "If you're on a cut then not so much carbs...")
?
My point about the pendulum is that folks in this thread who made the 80's movie jock/nerd false dichotomy into a central part of their identity seem to be saying that even admitting the usefulness of [a post-workout snack / knowing how to arrange meals in relation to workouts / the idea of rep schemes / the phrase "rep scheme"] is useless jock-coded foolishness.
posted by daveliepmann at 2:49 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Galvanic, go ahead, finish your thought!
I did. Using phrases like the quoted ones just confuse the vast majority of people and make them think that if they can't do exercise the "right way" then they're failing at it.
posted by Galvanic at 6:44 AM on May 12, 2023
I did. Using phrases like the quoted ones just confuse the vast majority of people and make them think that if they can't do exercise the "right way" then they're failing at it.
posted by Galvanic at 6:44 AM on May 12, 2023
People who intend to change their body might need to learn a new term or two. Perhaps even — dare I say it? — a concept!
posted by daveliepmann at 10:20 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by daveliepmann at 10:20 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Galvanic, "progression scheme" can be as simple as "I don't know that is, I just do what my program says."
The program I'm following uses both auto-regulation and DUP progression. I'm familiar with those concepts because *I'm a huge nerd* (and for a long time that meant that I thought lifting wasn't for fat nerds like me) but knowing what that means doesn't help me. I still just lift the weights it says for the reps and sets prescribed then I enter how many more reps I think I could have done on the last set on the spreadsheet and that's it.
But besides that, hobbies of ALL KINDS have jargon.
And like, I keep pointing out that I am a powerlifter. I've competed, I've worked out in powerlifting gyms, I talk to other powerlifters, I am a part of that community and I'm telling you flat out that it's full of introverts, nerds, and fat kids. About a third of competitors are women, for one. This is also how you know it's a sport for nerds, we track all data from just about every meet that's ever happened. It's full of folks that aren't very competitive but they enjoy challenging themselves and the positive and supportive atmosphere at powerlifting meets cannot be overstated and they just have fun challenging themselves. That's why I do it.
posted by VTX at 10:56 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
The program I'm following uses both auto-regulation and DUP progression. I'm familiar with those concepts because *I'm a huge nerd* (and for a long time that meant that I thought lifting wasn't for fat nerds like me) but knowing what that means doesn't help me. I still just lift the weights it says for the reps and sets prescribed then I enter how many more reps I think I could have done on the last set on the spreadsheet and that's it.
But besides that, hobbies of ALL KINDS have jargon.
And like, I keep pointing out that I am a powerlifter. I've competed, I've worked out in powerlifting gyms, I talk to other powerlifters, I am a part of that community and I'm telling you flat out that it's full of introverts, nerds, and fat kids. About a third of competitors are women, for one. This is also how you know it's a sport for nerds, we track all data from just about every meet that's ever happened. It's full of folks that aren't very competitive but they enjoy challenging themselves and the positive and supportive atmosphere at powerlifting meets cannot be overstated and they just have fun challenging themselves. That's why I do it.
posted by VTX at 10:56 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
People who intend to change their body might need to learn a new term or two
Or they might not.
@VTX: You're making my point for me.
posted by Galvanic at 11:57 AM on May 12, 2023
Or they might not.
@VTX: You're making my point for me.
posted by Galvanic at 11:57 AM on May 12, 2023
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I mean it will never stop somebody from oversimplifying and mechanizing to sell a pill or a book or whatever. To the credit of the author I was expecting still some kind of by my book about it when they put forth a fairly uncontroversial perspective on some of the factors that affect certain popular health concerns. Maybe they're exactly right, maybe they are halfway there, but in any case they seem to be following an empirical process which I appreciate.
posted by abulafa at 10:00 AM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]