“Can you find the wolves in this picture?”
May 18, 2023 6:32 AM Subscribe
Killers of the Flower Moon directed by Martin Scorsese [Official Teaser Trailer ] [YouTube] Based on David Grann’s broadly lauded best-selling book, Killers of the Flower Moon is set in 1920s Oklahoma and depicts the serial murder of members of the oil-wealthy Osage Nation, a string of brutal crimes that came to be known as the Reign of Terror. Directed by Martin Scorsese and Screenplay by Eric Roth and Scorsese, the film stars Leonardo DiCaprio, Robert De Niro, Lily Gladstone, Jesse Plemons, Tantoo Cardinal, Cara Jade Myers, JaNae Collins, and Jillian Dion.
For those wondering what Halloween Jack is referring to, the length of this film adaptation is 3h 26m.
posted by Fizz at 6:45 AM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 6:45 AM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Interesting. I’m wondering what aspects and angles of the book it picks up and hoping it doesn’t go for “white people detective story with natives on the edge”.
posted by Artw at 6:50 AM on May 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:50 AM on May 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
I’m wondering what aspects and angles of the book it picks up and hoping it doesn’t go for “white people detective story with natives on the edge”.
It's Scorsese directing DiCaprio and DeNiro, so they're not going to be minor supporting characters, but the author of the source material said that Scorsese’s team began communicating early with the Osage Chief, Standing Bear, who appointed Osage ambassadors for various aspects of the film. Their collaboration ensured the Osage had a part in telling the story, influencing everything from costume design, casting, language coaching, and their decision to film on-location.
posted by Etrigan at 6:57 AM on May 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
It's Scorsese directing DiCaprio and DeNiro, so they're not going to be minor supporting characters, but the author of the source material said that Scorsese’s team began communicating early with the Osage Chief, Standing Bear, who appointed Osage ambassadors for various aspects of the film. Their collaboration ensured the Osage had a part in telling the story, influencing everything from costume design, casting, language coaching, and their decision to film on-location.
posted by Etrigan at 6:57 AM on May 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
This interview with Scorsese about the movie has been getting passed around my friends online. It ends on quite a poignant note:
DEADLINE: You’re 80. Do you still have that fire to get right back behind the camera and get the next one going?posted by fight or flight at 7:09 AM on May 18, 2023 [76 favorites]
SCORSESE: Got to. Got to. Yeah. I wish I could take a break for eight weeks and make a film at the same time [laughs]. The whole world has opened up to me, but it’s too late. It’s too late.
DEADLINE: What do you mean by that?
SCORSESE: I’m old. I read stuff. I see things. I want to tell stories, and there’s no more time. Kurosawa, when he got his Oscar, when George [Lucas] and Steven [Spielberg] gave it to him, he said, “I’m only now beginning to see the possibility of what cinema could be, and it’s too late.” He was 83. At the time, I said, “What does he mean?” Now I know what he means.
The project sounds really interesting, but, Scorsese being Scorsese, I can't help but expect the violence to be it's biggest star, drowning-out whatever actual tale he's trying to tell. I hope I'm wrong, but I kinda doubt I am.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:23 AM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 7:23 AM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
The vibes I'm getting are leaning more towards Shutter Island & Gangs of New York.
posted by Fizz at 7:34 AM on May 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 7:34 AM on May 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I could see this being interesting. Obviously if the reviews come back as "this isn't a movie about whiteness, racism and capitalism and but rather a movie that centers white people in a white savior tale" I won't go see it, but I just had covid (sigh) and thus would feel okay in a relatively uncrowded movie theater in an N95....and I do love really long movies. I like to settle in for hours, ideally a bit close to the screen so that I feel really immersed.
I think almost all my favorite non-animated movies are over 160 minutes, although the longest, The Saragossa Manuscript, tops out at 182 minutes, so shorter than this one.
posted by Frowner at 7:57 AM on May 18, 2023
I think almost all my favorite non-animated movies are over 160 minutes, although the longest, The Saragossa Manuscript, tops out at 182 minutes, so shorter than this one.
posted by Frowner at 7:57 AM on May 18, 2023
Looking entirely beyond what the film is like - that is a hell of a trailer: really great pacing, voice over and sound design. I’m definitely going to go and see it.
posted by rongorongo at 7:58 AM on May 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 7:58 AM on May 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
I had not heard of this before. I'm now quite interested.
posted by rebent at 7:59 AM on May 18, 2023
posted by rebent at 7:59 AM on May 18, 2023
The book is terrific.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:09 AM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 8:09 AM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
> Scorsese being Scorsese, I can't help but expect the violence to be it's biggest star
Scorcese has a pretty diverse filmography that is unfortunately overshadowed by his mob movies, which aren't even my favorites. After Hours, Bringing out the Dead, Kundun for example are brilliant films that don't revolve around Criminal Psychopath Does Bad Things. But then this is a movie about a bunch of murders, so who knows.
posted by dis_integration at 8:42 AM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Scorcese has a pretty diverse filmography that is unfortunately overshadowed by his mob movies, which aren't even my favorites. After Hours, Bringing out the Dead, Kundun for example are brilliant films that don't revolve around Criminal Psychopath Does Bad Things. But then this is a movie about a bunch of murders, so who knows.
posted by dis_integration at 8:42 AM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Scorcese has a pretty diverse filmography that is unfortunately overshadowed by his mob movies,
Indeed, I urge everyone to watch Age of Innocence. It is one of the most erotically charged films I've ever seen, starring a love triangle between Daniel Day Lewis, Michelle Pfeiffer, and a young Winona Ryder. It's a very quiet and moody film. Definitely worth your time.
posted by Fizz at 8:49 AM on May 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
Indeed, I urge everyone to watch Age of Innocence. It is one of the most erotically charged films I've ever seen, starring a love triangle between Daniel Day Lewis, Michelle Pfeiffer, and a young Winona Ryder. It's a very quiet and moody film. Definitely worth your time.
posted by Fizz at 8:49 AM on May 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
thanks for posting that fragment of interview, fight or flight
I think there's a finality that many people can hardly recognize, let alone accept, until they reach a certain point in life. The way Scorsese puts it in the quoted section, that is potent.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:51 AM on May 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think there's a finality that many people can hardly recognize, let alone accept, until they reach a certain point in life. The way Scorsese puts it in the quoted section, that is potent.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:51 AM on May 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
The project sounds really interesting, but, Scorsese being Scorsese, I can't help but expect the violence to be it's biggest star, drowning-out whatever actual tale he's trying to tell. I hope I'm wrong, but I kinda doubt I am.
Me too. The violence can't be ignored but I hope it doesn't drown out how many people absolutely abused the system put in place to "protect" the Osage. Unfortunately, violence was a pretty handy tool for doing it.
Would encourage anyone to read the book- its stomach turning how brazen and shady people were and pisses me off this is not taught in Oklahoma history.
posted by domino at 8:57 AM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Me too. The violence can't be ignored but I hope it doesn't drown out how many people absolutely abused the system put in place to "protect" the Osage. Unfortunately, violence was a pretty handy tool for doing it.
Would encourage anyone to read the book- its stomach turning how brazen and shady people were and pisses me off this is not taught in Oklahoma history.
posted by domino at 8:57 AM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's a personal distaste but why muck this very tragic and interesting story up with the hammiest clunky awful fake southern accent from the Ham-headed DiCaprio.
He's just AWFUL and his accent is more distracting than that stupid look he makes in every film when he's "Looking intently" guh.
That being said I saw no mention of Brendan Fraiser in the credits but thar that whale be in the trailarrrgh.
posted by djseafood at 10:21 AM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
He's just AWFUL and his accent is more distracting than that stupid look he makes in every film when he's "Looking intently" guh.
That being said I saw no mention of Brendan Fraiser in the credits but thar that whale be in the trailarrrgh.
posted by djseafood at 10:21 AM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
SCORSESE: Got to. Got to. Yeah. I wish I could take a break for eight weeks and make a film at the same time [laughs]. The whole world has opened up to me, but it’s too late. It’s too late.
OK, I have to tell a story now.
In 1995, the putative 100th anniversary of cinema, I attended an event held by the Cinema Archive at Wesleyan University, my alma mater. (I'd graduated about two months before!) The occasion was that that institution had just acquired the archives of Clint Eastwood, John Waters, and Martin Scorsese. All three filmmakers were there, along with many other notables, including, for some reason, Robert Vaughn, with whom I OF COURSE got a photo.
At one point, I was standing in a group of about 15 people, one of whom was Martin Scorsese. We were all just talking informally about film, and Scorsese was amiably holding court. He's an affable guy. One of the other people in the group at some point pulled out an old 8mm movie camera, loaded with film, and showed it to Scorsese. The guy asked if Scorsese might consider using it to shoot some footage, just for kicks.
Scorsese demurred for about five seconds, then said, "Gimme that!" He grabbed the camera as if he had no other choice, as if he were a man who'd been starving on a desert island for a week and someone handed him a ham sandwich. And he used the camera to film everyone in the conversation group, as well as the event in general, for half a minute or so, before handing it back to its owner, who I'm sure was absolutely thrilled.
Presented with a film camera, Scorsese absolutely could. not. refuse it. It was so plainly like a drug for him. It was incredible to see. So, yes, he can't not make movies. It's impossible for him, as far as I can tell.
What's extra-cool for me about this occurrence is that, because I was standing right next to the man, I actually appear in a Martin Scorsese film - and a one-of-a-kind one, at that.
posted by Dr. Wu at 10:26 AM on May 18, 2023 [103 favorites]
OK, I have to tell a story now.
In 1995, the putative 100th anniversary of cinema, I attended an event held by the Cinema Archive at Wesleyan University, my alma mater. (I'd graduated about two months before!) The occasion was that that institution had just acquired the archives of Clint Eastwood, John Waters, and Martin Scorsese. All three filmmakers were there, along with many other notables, including, for some reason, Robert Vaughn, with whom I OF COURSE got a photo.
At one point, I was standing in a group of about 15 people, one of whom was Martin Scorsese. We were all just talking informally about film, and Scorsese was amiably holding court. He's an affable guy. One of the other people in the group at some point pulled out an old 8mm movie camera, loaded with film, and showed it to Scorsese. The guy asked if Scorsese might consider using it to shoot some footage, just for kicks.
Scorsese demurred for about five seconds, then said, "Gimme that!" He grabbed the camera as if he had no other choice, as if he were a man who'd been starving on a desert island for a week and someone handed him a ham sandwich. And he used the camera to film everyone in the conversation group, as well as the event in general, for half a minute or so, before handing it back to its owner, who I'm sure was absolutely thrilled.
Presented with a film camera, Scorsese absolutely could. not. refuse it. It was so plainly like a drug for him. It was incredible to see. So, yes, he can't not make movies. It's impossible for him, as far as I can tell.
What's extra-cool for me about this occurrence is that, because I was standing right next to the man, I actually appear in a Martin Scorsese film - and a one-of-a-kind one, at that.
posted by Dr. Wu at 10:26 AM on May 18, 2023 [103 favorites]
So, yes, he can't not make movies. It's impossible for him, as far as I can tell.
His last words are going to be "No, I'm fine, let's get one more take on that...".
posted by Etrigan at 10:29 AM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
His last words are going to be "No, I'm fine, let's get one more take on that...".
posted by Etrigan at 10:29 AM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Scorcese has a pretty diverse filmography that is unfortunately overshadowed by his mob movies,
Indeed, I urge everyone to watch Age of Innocence. It is one of the most erotically charged films I've ever seen, starring a love triangle between Daniel Day Lewis, Michelle Pfeiffer, and a young Winona Ryder. It's a very quiet and moody film. Definitely worth your time.
Oh it's a mob movie alright. It's just a very WASPy, very rich mob that doesn't need explicit violence to keep people in line.
posted by octothorpe at 11:12 AM on May 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
Indeed, I urge everyone to watch Age of Innocence. It is one of the most erotically charged films I've ever seen, starring a love triangle between Daniel Day Lewis, Michelle Pfeiffer, and a young Winona Ryder. It's a very quiet and moody film. Definitely worth your time.
Oh it's a mob movie alright. It's just a very WASPy, very rich mob that doesn't need explicit violence to keep people in line.
posted by octothorpe at 11:12 AM on May 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
It has been a few years since I read the source book but if memory serves, investigations into the deaths and goings-on led to the involvement of a nascent Federal Bureau of Investigation
3+ hours might be rushing things a little
It's a horrendous story pulled from a monstrous history and still we live this history
posted by elkevelvet at 1:38 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
3+ hours might be rushing things a little
It's a horrendous story pulled from a monstrous history and still we live this history
posted by elkevelvet at 1:38 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
𐓇𐒼𐒰͘𐒰𐓓𐒻 𐓂𐓍𐒻͘𐒼𐒷 𐓀𐒰͘𐓒𐒷𐓆𐒼𐒰
posted by kirkaracha at 1:40 PM on May 18, 2023
posted by kirkaracha at 1:40 PM on May 18, 2023
the length of this film adaptation is 3h 26m.
This week I finally watched the full, 3 1/2 hour long version of Heaven's Gate. There were some saggy parts, but overall it was excellent.
posted by doctornemo at 1:45 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
This week I finally watched the full, 3 1/2 hour long version of Heaven's Gate. There were some saggy parts, but overall it was excellent.
posted by doctornemo at 1:45 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
centers white people in a white savior tale
Since you seem to be unfamiliar with the source material, I can assure you the white people are whatever the opposite of a savior is.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 2:07 PM on May 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
Since you seem to be unfamiliar with the source material, I can assure you the white people are whatever the opposite of a savior is.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 2:07 PM on May 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
The only white savior Scorcese has ever put on film is The Savior Himself, our Lord Jesus Christ (Willem Defoe), getting his rocks off
posted by dis_integration at 2:10 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 2:10 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
The book is excellent, unfolding in increasingly complex and horrifying ways as the scope of the crimes becomes clear. Must-reading for U.S. history and true crime buffs.
Native women play a key role in the story, which is a particular source of worry (for me, anyway) about how Scorsese will handle things. I can't help but recall Ellen Burstyn's commentary on the Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore disc, where she discusses how Scorsese's name came up as a possible director for the film she'd chosen for her next Warner Brothers project. She'd liked Mean Streets but it was Very Male, so she asked him what he knew about women. "Nothing," she says he said.
Of course, he did a great job on that one, and Age of Innocence is indeed pretty good, but when I heard Martin had claimed this one my first thought was "Damn I'd so so rather it was Kelly Reichardt or Chloé Zhao," either of whom would be great on a project like this. Reichardt directed Lily Gladstone in Certain Women and First Cow, both of which were terrific.
posted by mediareport at 2:27 PM on May 18, 2023
Native women play a key role in the story, which is a particular source of worry (for me, anyway) about how Scorsese will handle things. I can't help but recall Ellen Burstyn's commentary on the Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore disc, where she discusses how Scorsese's name came up as a possible director for the film she'd chosen for her next Warner Brothers project. She'd liked Mean Streets but it was Very Male, so she asked him what he knew about women. "Nothing," she says he said.
Of course, he did a great job on that one, and Age of Innocence is indeed pretty good, but when I heard Martin had claimed this one my first thought was "Damn I'd so so rather it was Kelly Reichardt or Chloé Zhao," either of whom would be great on a project like this. Reichardt directed Lily Gladstone in Certain Women and First Cow, both of which were terrific.
posted by mediareport at 2:27 PM on May 18, 2023
I can assure you the white people are whatever the opposite of a savior is.
There's definitely the opportunity for a heroic-white-cops story to be pulled out of the source material (whose subtitle is "The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI", after all). How Scorsese balances those threads will be interesting to see, once the movie comes to streaming.
posted by mediareport at 2:37 PM on May 18, 2023
There's definitely the opportunity for a heroic-white-cops story to be pulled out of the source material (whose subtitle is "The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI", after all). How Scorsese balances those threads will be interesting to see, once the movie comes to streaming.
posted by mediareport at 2:37 PM on May 18, 2023
Honestly the book could be adapted to something way longer, but then we would be in miniseries territory and Marty don’t do that.
posted by Artw at 3:02 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 3:02 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Regarding DiCaprio, I'm pretty sure that's a far Appalachian (not Southern) accent from my neck of the woods, and is fairly spot on with the pronunciations of Missur-ah and O-(pause)-Sayge rivers.
As for can I find the wolves in this picture? No. Because I didn't see that Opie-dead-eyed piece of shit Jesse Plemmons. And he's definitely gonna be a wolf.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:06 PM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
As for can I find the wolves in this picture? No. Because I didn't see that Opie-dead-eyed piece of shit Jesse Plemmons. And he's definitely gonna be a wolf.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:06 PM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Lol. Well, danger of spoilers if such a thing can be said for a true story, but Thomas Bruce White Sr. has a Wikipedia page and on that page can be found this picture and they should absolute put Plemmons in that hat.
posted by Artw at 3:16 PM on May 18, 2023
posted by Artw at 3:16 PM on May 18, 2023
@JasonIsbell: Happy birthday to De Niro who I’m pretty sure thought I was pulling some goofy method bullshit for a few days until he realized I actually talk this way.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:25 PM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:25 PM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
My #1 takeaway from watching this teaser is that I can already tell I wish that was someone other than Leo DiCaprio. He grates on my nerves here.
(I'm totally unfamiliar with the source material and nature of the character so it's hard for me to easily suggest clear alternatives, but just based on this bit the first names that come to my mind are Brad Pitt and Ethan Hawke.)
posted by dnash at 4:54 PM on May 18, 2023
(I'm totally unfamiliar with the source material and nature of the character so it's hard for me to easily suggest clear alternatives, but just based on this bit the first names that come to my mind are Brad Pitt and Ethan Hawke.)
posted by dnash at 4:54 PM on May 18, 2023
Looking forward to the part with the montage done to a classic Rolling Stones tune but can't quite figure out from the trailer where it will fit.
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:28 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:28 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean, gawd in heaven, as long it's not "Brown Sugar."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:17 PM on May 18, 2023
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:17 PM on May 18, 2023
Scorcese has a pretty diverse filmography that is unfortunately overshadowed by his mob movies, which aren't even my favorites.
Check out his Silence if you can - it's about a pair of Jesuit priests secretly tending to covert Christians in 1500s Japan, at a time when Christianity was flat-out illegal. It's been a year since I saw it and the very last scene haunts me still.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:00 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Check out his Silence if you can - it's about a pair of Jesuit priests secretly tending to covert Christians in 1500s Japan, at a time when Christianity was flat-out illegal. It's been a year since I saw it and the very last scene haunts me still.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:00 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
My most churlish trait as a lover of film is a deep and abiding hatred for movies that are too long. This format was not designed for a three and a half hour presentation. The human bladder does not work that way, and the human attention span does not either; eventually even the best film starts to feel like a meeting presided over by a blowhard who just doesn't want to go home. I would be happy to pay double to see this movie in two parts, a month or so apart, but there's no way I'm going to a theater and sitting there all day. Maybe with Adderall and a diaper, I don't know.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:31 AM on May 19, 2023
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:31 AM on May 19, 2023
I kind of miss intermissions in movies. They used to do that for any "big" film, literally throw an intermission in it. It was like a theatrical performance. They should bring those back.
posted by nushustu at 6:58 AM on May 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 6:58 AM on May 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Given the trailer's strong implication of a love story between Lily Gladstone and DiCaprio's characters, I'll be pleasantly surprised if the full movie really commits to the hostility to the white settlers in the trailer's last question. I'm sure it'll be worth seeing, whatever political message it bears, and despite Scorsese's continuing fascination with DiCaprio as a leading man who can do it all, but there had better be an intermission at the 110-minute mark.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:20 AM on May 19, 2023
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:20 AM on May 19, 2023
Nushutsu, that was one of many things I appreciated about RRR.
posted by Selena777 at 9:14 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:14 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Most dramas start to feel long if they're over two hours, and most comedies start to feel long if they're over an hour and a half. Dramas run out of story, and the best long movies have enough story to keep your interest. It's hard for comedies to come up with enough funny stuff. (Airplane is 88 minutes long.)
posted by kirkaracha at 9:25 AM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 9:25 AM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I haven't read the book, but when my folks and I moved to Bartlesville, OK in 1996, I remember hearing the history around this a lot. And it's the sort of thing that sticks with you. The movie shoot for this, unsurprisingly, had its home-base in Bartlesville, where my parents still live, so DiCaprio was staying a few houses down from them, etc. (By this point Bartlesville is weirdly used to film shoots swarming into town - Terrance Malick's "To the Wonder" and the movie of "August, Osage County" both shot there as well.) Watching the trailer was wild since the landscape is so very, very familiar to me. I can practically smell it.
I'm worried about seemingly centering this on the DiCaprio character, but I also trust Scorcese to know the story he's telling. This isn't a "white savior" story from what I know because who the fuck was "saved" in this tale? This is racism and greed and lots of murder and the bad guys win, from what I recall. Book readers, please correct me if I'm wrong?
posted by Navelgazer at 9:43 AM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm worried about seemingly centering this on the DiCaprio character, but I also trust Scorcese to know the story he's telling. This isn't a "white savior" story from what I know because who the fuck was "saved" in this tale? This is racism and greed and lots of murder and the bad guys win, from what I recall. Book readers, please correct me if I'm wrong?
posted by Navelgazer at 9:43 AM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
* movie nerd hat on *
So the comments about the movie's length are making me think of Erich Von Stroheim's movie Greed.... So, von Stroheim was a renowned director during the Silent Film days; this crazy Austrian dude who emigrated to the US and found work in Hollywood, and would always go around dressed like some half-assed 19th-Century General. He's better known for his acting today (he was Norma Desmond's "butler" in Sunset Boulevard), but he was a really good director.
Even though he was kinda nuts. His masterwork was an adaptation of this book called MacTeague, which he renamed Greed; it's a turn-of-the-centry tragedy about a guy who was raised by snake-oil salesmen and tries to become a legit dentist, and marries his BFF's crush; but then she turns into a serious miser and everything ends in tragedy for everyone.
Von Stroheim's original cut for the film was eight hours long. It was on 42 reels of film, and when he brought it in to show to the studio executives, he sat in the middle of all of them, staring at the screen and not moving a muscle. The executives were too intimidated to shift positions or get up to pee or anything, and sat through the whole eight hours. The studio executives all agreed that there was absolutely no way in hell they would ever be able to release it at that length - but it was one of the best movies they had ever seen in their lives. Von Stroheim tried cutting it down to only four hours, saying that that was as low as he could go. The studio execs still said that was too long; Von Stroheim still refused to budge. So the studio took over and cut it down to 2 hours - a move that pissed Von Stroheim off so much that he and studio executive Louis B. Mayer ended up getting into a fist fight over it.
Movie historians have tried to "restore" the original cut with some still photos from von Stroheim's notes and some of the original footage; what you'd see today is a 4-hour film, which many say is still only a shadow of the original.
Three hours is nuthin'.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:18 AM on May 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
So the comments about the movie's length are making me think of Erich Von Stroheim's movie Greed.... So, von Stroheim was a renowned director during the Silent Film days; this crazy Austrian dude who emigrated to the US and found work in Hollywood, and would always go around dressed like some half-assed 19th-Century General. He's better known for his acting today (he was Norma Desmond's "butler" in Sunset Boulevard), but he was a really good director.
Even though he was kinda nuts. His masterwork was an adaptation of this book called MacTeague, which he renamed Greed; it's a turn-of-the-centry tragedy about a guy who was raised by snake-oil salesmen and tries to become a legit dentist, and marries his BFF's crush; but then she turns into a serious miser and everything ends in tragedy for everyone.
Von Stroheim's original cut for the film was eight hours long. It was on 42 reels of film, and when he brought it in to show to the studio executives, he sat in the middle of all of them, staring at the screen and not moving a muscle. The executives were too intimidated to shift positions or get up to pee or anything, and sat through the whole eight hours. The studio executives all agreed that there was absolutely no way in hell they would ever be able to release it at that length - but it was one of the best movies they had ever seen in their lives. Von Stroheim tried cutting it down to only four hours, saying that that was as low as he could go. The studio execs still said that was too long; Von Stroheim still refused to budge. So the studio took over and cut it down to 2 hours - a move that pissed Von Stroheim off so much that he and studio executive Louis B. Mayer ended up getting into a fist fight over it.
Movie historians have tried to "restore" the original cut with some still photos from von Stroheim's notes and some of the original footage; what you'd see today is a 4-hour film, which many say is still only a shadow of the original.
Three hours is nuthin'.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:18 AM on May 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Earlier this year, the Philadelphia Film Society screened Sátántangó in its entirety. All seven and a half hours of it. It was astonishingly watchable.
It's hard to make a long movie that successfully compels you throughout its entire length, but it's doable—and nobody knows movies better than Scorsese. I can't wait to see this.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:34 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's hard to make a long movie that successfully compels you throughout its entire length, but it's doable—and nobody knows movies better than Scorsese. I can't wait to see this.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:34 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, it's interesting to me that in an age of regularly binge-watching TV, that 3+ hours of a movie made by an acknowledged master of the form seems overly daunting. A well-made movie flies by no matter how long it is. Meanwhile, a bad tiktok can seem to take hours.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:18 PM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 12:18 PM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
There definitely are too many 3 hr+ movies these days. It used to be a sign of a movie that really needed it, like Once Upon A Time In America, the Godfather Part II, or Edward Yang's masterful A Brighter Summer Day, but now it seems like every action movie somehow finds a way to break the 2.5 hour mark, and I definitely am reluctant to start one that long unless the promise of a rewarding experience is very high. Scorcese don't miss though! Even the Irishman, which suffered from the weird deaging, didn't waste a second of its runtime.
posted by dis_integration at 12:21 PM on May 19, 2023
posted by dis_integration at 12:21 PM on May 19, 2023
It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World clocks in at 3:30, and IIRC has an intermission. At least in IMDB it's listed as an Action Adventure Comedy.
posted by achrise at 1:13 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by achrise at 1:13 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
a bad tiktok can seem to take hours
Agreed. And that's a lot of Tiktok. I regret watching it more than I'm sad about watching network tv in the 1970s.
posted by doctornemo at 6:06 PM on May 19, 2023
Agreed. And that's a lot of Tiktok. I regret watching it more than I'm sad about watching network tv in the 1970s.
posted by doctornemo at 6:06 PM on May 19, 2023
Jim Gray, former Principal Chief of the Osage Nation, shares his thoughts.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:09 PM on May 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 3:09 PM on May 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
and a nine minute standing ovation at Cannes ... for what it's worth
posted by philip-random at 6:46 PM on May 20, 2023
posted by philip-random at 6:46 PM on May 20, 2023
Navelgazer, thanks for that Twitter thread from the former Osage Chief. I'm glad he's generally pleased with the film, which is good news after the Variety review [caution: multiple spoilers if you haven't read the book] was less enamored of the focus on the white characters, which began to confirm the fears I had after hearing Scorsese would be directing:
Instead of focusing his cameras on the Native victims, the 'Irishman' director lets Leonardo DiCaprio and Robert De Niro have the lion's share of the screen time in this meaty but demanding true-crime saga...
Reducing most of the Osage to glorified extras, it’s classic Scorsese to present this case from the criminals’ perspective, much as “Casino” tracked Vegas’ roots as a gangsters’ paradise.
posted by mediareport at 10:59 AM on May 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Instead of focusing his cameras on the Native victims, the 'Irishman' director lets Leonardo DiCaprio and Robert De Niro have the lion's share of the screen time in this meaty but demanding true-crime saga...
Reducing most of the Osage to glorified extras, it’s classic Scorsese to present this case from the criminals’ perspective, much as “Casino” tracked Vegas’ roots as a gangsters’ paradise.
posted by mediareport at 10:59 AM on May 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Brad Pitt and Ethan Hawke
dicaprio's already 20 years too old for the role. either of them would be much, much worse. I would happily go a lifetime never seeing him again but if you don't know who he's playing, what can these suggestions possibly be based on.
Given the trailer's strong implication of a love story between Lily Gladstone and DiCaprio's characters
love, or the skilled simulation of love, does often precede and facilitate a marriage. the marriage was not a minor detail of the story. what is the issue here.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:34 PM on May 22, 2023
dicaprio's already 20 years too old for the role. either of them would be much, much worse. I would happily go a lifetime never seeing him again but if you don't know who he's playing, what can these suggestions possibly be based on.
Given the trailer's strong implication of a love story between Lily Gladstone and DiCaprio's characters
love, or the skilled simulation of love, does often precede and facilitate a marriage. the marriage was not a minor detail of the story. what is the issue here.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:34 PM on May 22, 2023
Yeah, it continues to baffle me that Scorsese is often derided as "violent mob movie guy" when he has a really long filmography that is more diverse than most filmmakers.
Also, yes I am very much looking forward to this.
posted by brundlefly at 12:42 PM on May 22, 2023
Also, yes I am very much looking forward to this.
posted by brundlefly at 12:42 PM on May 22, 2023
love, or the skilled simulation of love, does often precede and facilitate a marriage. the marriage was not a minor detail of the story. what is the issue here.
I don't know the story and I don't know how the movie will treat the story. I know that I'd roll my eyes at a movie that ended with a heroic white man closing the case and sealing the beautiful future of the U.S.'s relationship with Indigenous Americans with a loving marriage to an Osage woman. I like Scorsese a lot, but I don't think he's above making a subtler, more intellectualized version of that kind of ending, in the way that Taxi Driver can be read as Death Wish for people who think they're too smart for Death Wish. That's why I was so glad to read the glowing praise in Jim Gray's thread, which Navelgazer posted earlier. I was looking forward to the movie when I saw the trailer and I'm looking forward to the movie now that it got such raves at Cannes.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:08 PM on May 24, 2023
I don't know the story and I don't know how the movie will treat the story. I know that I'd roll my eyes at a movie that ended with a heroic white man closing the case and sealing the beautiful future of the U.S.'s relationship with Indigenous Americans with a loving marriage to an Osage woman. I like Scorsese a lot, but I don't think he's above making a subtler, more intellectualized version of that kind of ending, in the way that Taxi Driver can be read as Death Wish for people who think they're too smart for Death Wish. That's why I was so glad to read the glowing praise in Jim Gray's thread, which Navelgazer posted earlier. I was looking forward to the movie when I saw the trailer and I'm looking forward to the movie now that it got such raves at Cannes.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:08 PM on May 24, 2023
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posted by Halloween Jack at 6:42 AM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]