'Lost' Illusions: The Untold Story of the Hit Show’s Poisonous Culture
May 30, 2023 7:31 AM Subscribe
An excerpt from Maureen Ryan's Burn It Down: Power, Complicity, and a Call for Change in Hollywood as an article in Vanity Fair about the workplace abuse that went behind the scenes at Lost:
The show was a groundbreaking smash, but behind the scenes it devolved into such toxicity that even co-showrunner Damon Lindelof now says of his leadership: “I failed.”
Thanks for the non paywalled link fizz
posted by Faintdreams at 8:04 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Faintdreams at 8:04 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
““It became pretty clear that I was the Black guy. Daniel [Dae Kim] was the Asian guy. And then you had Jack and Kate and Sawyer,” all of whom got a good deal of screen time, as did Terry O’Quinn’s Locke. Indeed, a writer I spoke to who worked on Lost during the middle of its run said that the writing staff was told repeatedly who the “hero characters” were: Locke, Jack, Kate, and Sawyer, all of whom were white. “It’s not that they didn’t write stories for Sayid [an Iraqi character] or Sun and Jin [Korean characters],” the source added. Still, they recalled comments like “Nobody cares about these other characters. Just give them a few scenes on another beach.” [...] “I don’t have to be the first, I don’t have to have the most episodes—but I’d like to be in the mix. But it seems like this is now a story about Jack and Kate and Sawyer.” Perrineau said he was told, “Well, this is just how audiences follow stories,” and those were the characters that were “relatable.””All of this tracks. The show definitely wanted to push certain characters and those story-lines were always being put front and center and those characters were fleshed out while so many of the other POC/racialized characters were put on the backburner or introduced and then just never addressed with the same amount of content and time.
It's no wonder the show progressively worsened. And let's not forget, these same showrunners were the ones who floated that ill-fated (and thankfully cancelled) Confederate tv series. Such a sad state of affairs but not at all surprising.
posted by Fizz at 8:18 AM on May 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's no wonder the show progressively worsened. And let's not forget, these same showrunners were the ones who floated that ill-fated (and thankfully cancelled) Confederate tv series. Such a sad state of affairs but not at all surprising.Weren't the people who floated that GoT's D&D bros, who are their own (but similar) kettle of problems?
posted by Pachylad at 8:21 AM on May 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
hmm.
Suddenly a lot of the story beats and rumoured changes to Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker are making a LOT more sense..
posted by Faintdreams at 8:22 AM on May 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
Suddenly a lot of the story beats and rumoured changes to Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker are making a LOT more sense..
posted by Faintdreams at 8:22 AM on May 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
Ah damnit, you're right pachylad, I got them mixed up. I think I just confused two different sets of horrible showrunners who are both bad with how they treat and write their stories for POC.
posted by Fizz at 8:24 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 8:24 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lindelof didn't work the Star Wars movies--that was JJ Abrams, who goes unnamed here. He did do Watchmen with the awkward race swaps, though. Wondering what else he's done to get the call out now...
posted by kingdead at 8:35 AM on May 30, 2023
posted by kingdead at 8:35 AM on May 30, 2023
FFS.
posted by microscone at 8:42 AM on May 30, 2023 [52 favorites]
"Can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding." - They Might Be Giants, Your Racist Friend
When someone on staff was adopting an Asian child, one person said to another writer that “no grandparent wants a slanty-eyed grandchild.”
When actor Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje’s picture was on the writers room table, someone was told to remove their nearby wallet “before he steals it.”
When Owusu-Breen and others were riding in a van on a trip, in answer to a question about the luggage, one writer—using a Yiddish word—said, “Let the schvartze take it.”
The only Asian American writer was called Korean, as in, “Korean, take the board.”
When a woman entered the writers room carrying a binder, two sources said, a male writer asked her what it was. She said it was the HR manual for the studio, and he responded, “Why don’t you take off your top and tell us about it?”
There was apparently some discomfort around the show’s cleaning staff using the bathroom in the Lost offices, and there were “jokes” about “putting up a Whites Only sign.”
Finally, when Perrineau’s Lost departure came up, Lindelof said, according to multiple sources, that the actor “called me racist, so I fired his ass.”
posted by microscone at 8:42 AM on May 30, 2023 [52 favorites]
“Damon once said, ‘I don’t trust any writer who isn’t miserable, because that tells me you don’t care,’ that right there. MASSIVE RED FLAG.
posted by Faintdreams at 8:47 AM on May 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Faintdreams at 8:47 AM on May 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Suddenly a lot of the story beats and rumoured changes to Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker are making a LOT more sense..
To be clear, Cuse and Lindelof had nothing to do with writing that movie, although LOST creator and exec prod JJ Abrams' cowrote the screenplay.
Speaking as someone who has always been an apologist for LOST as a series that helped push episodic television towards the current serialized model, while also acknowledging its flaws as a network show that was forced to write towards an "endless middle" until the end of the third season: I'm angry and disappointed that its failures in creating compelling storylines for its nonwhite cast members were not the result of benign neglect, but because there was a pernicious and conscious racist atmosphere in the writer's room and elsewhere. I'd assumed that Lindelof was better than this, and now see that the trust I had was greatly misplaced.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:54 AM on May 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
To be clear, Cuse and Lindelof had nothing to do with writing that movie, although LOST creator and exec prod JJ Abrams' cowrote the screenplay.
Speaking as someone who has always been an apologist for LOST as a series that helped push episodic television towards the current serialized model, while also acknowledging its flaws as a network show that was forced to write towards an "endless middle" until the end of the third season: I'm angry and disappointed that its failures in creating compelling storylines for its nonwhite cast members were not the result of benign neglect, but because there was a pernicious and conscious racist atmosphere in the writer's room and elsewhere. I'd assumed that Lindelof was better than this, and now see that the trust I had was greatly misplaced.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:54 AM on May 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
Javier Grillo-Marxuach [previously], who went on record for the story, released a statement:
In the words of Howard Beale, "I just ran out of bullshit."posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:56 AM on May 30, 2023 [22 favorites]
To the charge of hypocrisy, I plead no contest. I cashed the checks. I affected friendship. I
handed out high praise (some deserved). I even sought to mend fences with those who broke
them well after it should have been clear that the effort was demeaning.
Sometimes hypocrisy is the only way people like me can survive people like them.
Wow, my heart really goes out to poor Damon Lindelof who is "stricken" about his co-worker's lived experiences and/or doesn't remember any of it. What a colossal asshole. At least better than Cuse I guess, who just says it's lies.
Aside from the "it was all a dream" ending (yeah I know, please don't Lostsplain the ending again because it was SO BAD and I totally don't care anymore), I found the unresolved Michael/Walt storyline the most frustrating thing about the show. This article sure illuminates why that happened. Fuckers.
posted by chococat at 9:01 AM on May 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
Aside from the "it was all a dream" ending (yeah I know, please don't Lostsplain the ending again because it was SO BAD and I totally don't care anymore), I found the unresolved Michael/Walt storyline the most frustrating thing about the show. This article sure illuminates why that happened. Fuckers.
posted by chococat at 9:01 AM on May 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
I've heard quite a bit of this across the years, so none of this is really a surprise to me. I've been under the impression that Damon has really done a lot of work on himself across the intervening years and he's not now who he was then. I think it's a major failing in Hollywood that there doesn't seem to be any kind of apprenticeship or mentoring system in place for talented people who are quite green when it comes to managing a group of people like is required for being a show runner. I'm definitely not making excuses for any of this behavior, but I've seen similar things happen in all kinds of situations where there isn't enough experience at the top.
Anyway, I'm quite enjoying Mrs. Davis.
posted by hippybear at 9:03 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyway, I'm quite enjoying Mrs. Davis.
posted by hippybear at 9:03 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
That was really depressing. I never watched the show so I can’t comment on that, but I do love reading about writers rooms and it seems so hard to find ones for great shows that aren’t toxic. I’m puzzled by the decision to write the piece like they did, with all the accusations of what happened front-loaded at the beginning, and then following it with a ton of space for Lindelof and Cuse to deny everything point by point, to make their cases against it. And I get it, journalistic integrity means you have to follow up on claims. But structuring it like a she said / he said defense trial - even if the prosecutor got the last word - felt really off to me.
posted by Mchelly at 9:05 AM on May 30, 2023
posted by Mchelly at 9:05 AM on May 30, 2023
if you turn off the bathroom lights, stare into the mirror, and say the name 'Damon Lindelof' three times, a dead-eyed studio executive will appear, do a line of blow off the counter, and say 'what a visionary - a true talent' before smacking you on the ass and disappearing for no easily explainable reason
posted by logicpunk at 9:07 AM on May 30, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by logicpunk at 9:07 AM on May 30, 2023 [25 favorites]
Wow, my heart really goes out to poor Damon Lindelof who is "stricken" about his co-worker's lived experiences and/or doesn't remember any of it.
Don't forget the part where he worries about the real issue, which is whether the release of the book and the revelations about the abuse on his watch will affect his career!
posted by creepygirl at 9:15 AM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Don't forget the part where he worries about the real issue, which is whether the release of the book and the revelations about the abuse on his watch will affect his career!
posted by creepygirl at 9:15 AM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
You know how, every now and then, you find out that an artist, whose works have been aggressively celebrated by everyone you know and you have told repeatedly what a genius they are and how there's something wrong with you for your failure to appreciate their genius, is a giant asshole. And even though assholery has nothing to do with creative output (to paraphrase the article, you really can be talented and also a reasonably nice, respectful person who doesn't make a habit of abusing people), I am enjoying that fleeing, stupid, irrelevant satisfaction of knowing I never liked that guy's stuff.
posted by thivaia at 9:17 AM on May 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 9:17 AM on May 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Toward the end of that second conversation, Lindelof began speculating about what would happen to his career as a result of this book. He sounded as demoralized as I felt.Points for regret, or at least showing it more than Cuse (damning by faint praise)
“It’s not for me to say what kind of person I am,” he said. “But I will say this—I would trade every person who told you that I was talented—I would rather they said I was untalented but decent, rather than a talented monster.”
That is a false binary: People can be talented and decent. Lindelof’s framing is one I encounter a lot, and it belies, or at least hints at, the fundamental belief that if you’re a genius, you’re more or less required to be a monster.
Points docked for holding onto the 'asshole genius' canard
Betting further points forever revoked that it's likely more allegations may come out that Lindelof's never really changed his spots.
posted by Pachylad at 9:20 AM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Well, we could find out by talking to the team that made The Leftovers.
posted by hippybear at 9:21 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 9:21 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
That Vanity Fair TFA is the only place google can find "Korean, take the board"
posted by achrise at 9:34 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by achrise at 9:34 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
My goodness that was gross. I gave up at the part with the "I'd like to stage a lynching" business.
What horrible people. Why would you even be that kind of person?
Some of it is obviously power - Cuse, etc are so used to never hearing "no" that their personalities are entirely deconditioned and fragile so they lash out at anyone who doesn't fawn. But many of those people weren't powerful.
If it were me is all I'm saying, I would think "huh, years from now do I want my kids or my nieces or my parents to read some news story about how racist I was and how badly I treated the people around me? Is this how I want to be remembered, as the guy who nodded and grinned while my boss cracked wise about a lynching?"
Also, just for the historical record - this was the early 2000s, not 1930. I remember the early 2000s well and in fact that kind of behavior may have been common but it was not admired. No one thought "hey, I would say this racist stuff on a street corner where anyone could hear me, it's fine". As events recede into the past, we assume that stuff was normalized at a level that it just was not.
posted by Frowner at 9:41 AM on May 30, 2023 [24 favorites]
What horrible people. Why would you even be that kind of person?
Some of it is obviously power - Cuse, etc are so used to never hearing "no" that their personalities are entirely deconditioned and fragile so they lash out at anyone who doesn't fawn. But many of those people weren't powerful.
If it were me is all I'm saying, I would think "huh, years from now do I want my kids or my nieces or my parents to read some news story about how racist I was and how badly I treated the people around me? Is this how I want to be remembered, as the guy who nodded and grinned while my boss cracked wise about a lynching?"
Also, just for the historical record - this was the early 2000s, not 1930. I remember the early 2000s well and in fact that kind of behavior may have been common but it was not admired. No one thought "hey, I would say this racist stuff on a street corner where anyone could hear me, it's fine". As events recede into the past, we assume that stuff was normalized at a level that it just was not.
posted by Frowner at 9:41 AM on May 30, 2023 [24 favorites]
From Javi's PDF:
You may remember how characters in Lost frequently made fun of Tallahassee. One day, the office received a very game letter from the Mayor of Tallahassee, along with all the attendant brochures, suggesting that we might want to get to know the good things about the city. In response, Damon told the writers room to double down on Tallahassee. When asked why, he replied with a straight face that the only thing funnier than punching someone in the face for no reason is punching them harder when they ask why. If you can imagine that as a management philosophy, you can understand what it was like to work on Lost.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:43 AM on May 30, 2023 [23 favorites]
You may remember how characters in Lost frequently made fun of Tallahassee. One day, the office received a very game letter from the Mayor of Tallahassee, along with all the attendant brochures, suggesting that we might want to get to know the good things about the city. In response, Damon told the writers room to double down on Tallahassee. When asked why, he replied with a straight face that the only thing funnier than punching someone in the face for no reason is punching them harder when they ask why. If you can imagine that as a management philosophy, you can understand what it was like to work on Lost.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:43 AM on May 30, 2023 [23 favorites]
fundamental belief that if you’re a genius, you’re more or less required to be a monster.
This kind of thing is yet another example of "Power corrupts." And why I'm determined to make sure I never even get a tiny taste of yummy, yummy power for fears I'd go Full Asshole. You just see it too many times.
You become a monster because suddenly you can do literally whatever you want, to whoever you want, with no consequences whatsoever. How would you not become a monster, I do not know. I guess some people manage that, but it doesn't seem like too many people manage it. It seems too tempting and that's why I avoid power.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:54 AM on May 30, 2023
This kind of thing is yet another example of "Power corrupts." And why I'm determined to make sure I never even get a tiny taste of yummy, yummy power for fears I'd go Full Asshole. You just see it too many times.
You become a monster because suddenly you can do literally whatever you want, to whoever you want, with no consequences whatsoever. How would you not become a monster, I do not know. I guess some people manage that, but it doesn't seem like too many people manage it. It seems too tempting and that's why I avoid power.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:54 AM on May 30, 2023
I bailed out on Lost towards the end of season 2, for a lot of reasons that I see now were not accidental. The treatment of women characters, the fact that characters with far more interesting backstories like Sun and Sayyid were getting far less screen time, the fact that the tailies like Eko were being wasted. It was having the THIRD woman killed after either having sex or planning to that was the snapping point, but there was a lot of accumulated irritation. I mean, I liked Jack and Sawyer and Kate fine, but I was utterly uninterested in their love triangle.
posted by tavella at 10:16 AM on May 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by tavella at 10:16 AM on May 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
the only thing funnier than punching someone in the face for no reason is punching them harder when they ask why
Dang but that encapsulates the Lost viewing experience. Also The Leftovers.
posted by cyclopticgaze at 10:17 AM on May 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Dang but that encapsulates the Lost viewing experience. Also The Leftovers.
posted by cyclopticgaze at 10:17 AM on May 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Lindelof asked, “Would it shock you to learn or believe that, despite the fact that I completely and totally validate your word cloud, that I was oblivious, largely oblivious, to the adverse impacts that I was having on others in that writers room during the entire time that the show was happening?” He also asked, “Do you feel like I knew the whole time and just kept doing it?”
"largely"
I think you were a white dude with the power to declare the stakes were so low it didn't matter and it wasn't "that bad" and as reinforcement you'd likely only even be thinking of the white guys when you claim "somebody" would have told you if there was a problem. And that EVEN in the creative-management philosophy of ‘I don’t trust any writer who isn’t miserable', you still only meant White Man Miserable: slightly under-rested, a little paunchy, drinking a little too much, a little cynical, not really spending any quality time with the girlfriend and dog. Absolutely NO IDEA what real people's 'miserable' actually is or what traumatized people and a toxic environment actually look like.
Aaanyway, I don't know if we can blame Hollywood Culture for Startup Culture, or vice versa, or just the fact that certain types of assholes tend to rise to the top of both (and many more, I'm sure!), but this is exactly what is meant every time the words "startup" come out of the mouths of people who aren't holding bricks or flaming objects.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:27 AM on May 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
"largely"
I think you were a white dude with the power to declare the stakes were so low it didn't matter and it wasn't "that bad" and as reinforcement you'd likely only even be thinking of the white guys when you claim "somebody" would have told you if there was a problem. And that EVEN in the creative-management philosophy of ‘I don’t trust any writer who isn’t miserable', you still only meant White Man Miserable: slightly under-rested, a little paunchy, drinking a little too much, a little cynical, not really spending any quality time with the girlfriend and dog. Absolutely NO IDEA what real people's 'miserable' actually is or what traumatized people and a toxic environment actually look like.
Aaanyway, I don't know if we can blame Hollywood Culture for Startup Culture, or vice versa, or just the fact that certain types of assholes tend to rise to the top of both (and many more, I'm sure!), but this is exactly what is meant every time the words "startup" come out of the mouths of people who aren't holding bricks or flaming objects.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:27 AM on May 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
We stopped watching Lost after season one. It seemed that the show was never going to answer all the questions about the nature of the island (let alone the fucking polar bear) and just make up crazy shit as they went along. Little Damon is also on my shitlist for his writing. After Star Trek Into Darkness Lindelof, Orsi, and Kurtzman should have never been allowed near another script. Just a penchant for plot holes, hand waves on anything regarding science or tech, and going full Chris Carter in making up crazy shit with no grand plan in sight. Don't even get me started on Prometheus.
I am not surprised he's an asshole to work with as well. I refuse to view any more of his work. I've got better things to do with my time.
posted by Ber at 10:33 AM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am not surprised he's an asshole to work with as well. I refuse to view any more of his work. I've got better things to do with my time.
posted by Ber at 10:33 AM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm definitely not making excuses for any of this behavior, but I've seen similar things happen in all kinds of situations where there isn't enough experience at the top.
I've seen the exact same thing happen in situations where there was experience and mentoring in place. It does always just boil down to 'are the people in charge assholes? do they care?' and nobody* has found a system for reliably screening out assholes who don't care.
*(nobody in the world of HR and hiring anyway)
posted by Dysk at 10:39 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've seen the exact same thing happen in situations where there was experience and mentoring in place. It does always just boil down to 'are the people in charge assholes? do they care?' and nobody* has found a system for reliably screening out assholes who don't care.
*(nobody in the world of HR and hiring anyway)
posted by Dysk at 10:39 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Aaanyway, I don't know if we can blame Hollywood Culture for Startup Culture, or vice versa …
Folks in power being oblivious to the harm they do has been a core mechanism in human existence probably since the first org chart was scratched into a cave wall. We don't need to look to specific cultures for it.
… but this is exactly what is meant every time the words "startup" come out of the mouths of people who aren't holding bricks or flaming objects
I must be missing something – do you think every person who's ever started a company is angling for this kind of power and harm?
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:40 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Folks in power being oblivious to the harm they do has been a core mechanism in human existence probably since the first org chart was scratched into a cave wall. We don't need to look to specific cultures for it.
… but this is exactly what is meant every time the words "startup" come out of the mouths of people who aren't holding bricks or flaming objects
I must be missing something – do you think every person who's ever started a company is angling for this kind of power and harm?
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:40 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Would it shock you to learn or believe that, despite the fact that I completely and totally validate your word cloud, that I was oblivious, largely oblivious, to the adverse impacts that I was having on others in that writers room during the entire time that the show was happening?
I have a whole theory around this, structured around the idea of "inertial frame" – people in power like this are very much insulated from awareness of the implications of their actions, both by internal processes (various forms of ego/identity repair that happen when there's cognitive dissonance) and external (organizations and individuals that actively work to normalize the harm or prevent the repercussions from reaching the person in power). It's of course in no way an excuse, but basically "I was so dim I didn't even see it!" has been used as a successful defense for … forever.
It's one of the reasons that I find going to the source of harm to "find out what they really feel" is not helpful, except in a post-mortem, psychological analysis kind of way. Step one should aways be remove the person from power so they do less harm; figure out what they think "in their heart" later, if you care.
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:47 AM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have a whole theory around this, structured around the idea of "inertial frame" – people in power like this are very much insulated from awareness of the implications of their actions, both by internal processes (various forms of ego/identity repair that happen when there's cognitive dissonance) and external (organizations and individuals that actively work to normalize the harm or prevent the repercussions from reaching the person in power). It's of course in no way an excuse, but basically "I was so dim I didn't even see it!" has been used as a successful defense for … forever.
It's one of the reasons that I find going to the source of harm to "find out what they really feel" is not helpful, except in a post-mortem, psychological analysis kind of way. Step one should aways be remove the person from power so they do less harm; figure out what they think "in their heart" later, if you care.
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:47 AM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
(Not to speak for anyone else, but I've known several people who have started companies and businesses, and I don't think I've ever heard a single one of them call it a start-up even a single time.)
posted by Dysk at 10:48 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 10:48 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
nobody* has found a system for reliably screening out assholes who don't care.
Maybe this.
I'd like to hear how staff on Lindelof's shows after this were treated.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:00 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe this.
I'd like to hear how staff on Lindelof's shows after this were treated.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:00 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
As to "inertial frames," one of the problems I saw many, many times in organizations is that if there is a bad manager (called A), it usually takes their manager (called B) to fire them. But that manager is who hired them, so cognitive dissonance sets in, and they become blind to the problem. I had a terrible manager A, possibly violent, we complained like crazy but to no avail. Finally, the manager (called C) of manager B came back from vacation and hired a $25,000 management consultant to find out what our (the employees) problem was. C was told by B that we were the problem. We sat in a room with C, but not B or A, and in 15 minutes the consultant looked at C and said A is the problem. But A was still our manager, while we were afraid of running into them in the parking garage. It wasn't until a few months later when A took me aside to tell me that I wasn't being laid off, a very serious breach of HR policy, that I called HR and he was quickly laid off to get rid of him. But not for all the problems we endured. C hired B, B hired A, and none of them would take responsibility of A's behavior. Management protects management, all to make themselves not look bad because of their decisions.
posted by njohnson23 at 11:14 AM on May 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 11:14 AM on May 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
So I can't stop thinking about this scene from Streetfighter the 1994 Movie:
posted by Faintdreams at 12:42 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Chun-Li: My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away. A hero at a thousand paces.
M. Bison: I'm sorry. I don't remember any of it.
Chun-Li: You don't remember?!
Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday."
- Street Fighter
posted by Faintdreams at 12:42 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
> This kind of thing is yet another example of "Power corrupts." And why I'm determined to make sure I never even get a tiny taste of yummy, yummy power for fears I'd go Full Asshole. You just see it too many times.
When I first started working in a collaborative creative field, I was taken under the wing of a very charismatic, very talented, very bad news artist. It took me a while to get myself out of that situation, and for a good long while I held the hangover belief that talented artists must necessarily be assholes. After working in collaborative creative fields for some additional years, I learned that "talent" and "asshole" are two completely different axes -- they are totally unrelated, and there's a pretty good distribution of folks in every quadrant.
Quadrant I - untalented assholes. These are easy to avoid; nobody wants to work with them anyway.
Quadrant II - untalented non-assholes. I will sit through their shows and readings and art openings and try my best to find the best in them. Everyone deserves a chance to express themselves; most of us start out untalented; and most folks get better at their craft with practice.
Quadrant III - talented assholes. Very tricky. Very difficult. They generally believe that their horrible behavior somehow proves their talent; they're great at convincing others of the same. Give these folks any speck of power and they will use it to abuse others. FOMO, fear, and power imbalance often prevents people from walking away, but walking away is the only solution. Otherwise, they'll eat up your energy and keep you from doing the good work you could be doing.
Quadrant IV - talented non-assholes. Find them and cherish them. Walking away from a Quadrant III makes room in your life to work with the Quadrant IVs. When given power, these folks use it to lift up others. Per Robert Caro: "Power doesn’t corrupt, it reveals."
posted by ourobouros at 1:41 PM on May 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
When I first started working in a collaborative creative field, I was taken under the wing of a very charismatic, very talented, very bad news artist. It took me a while to get myself out of that situation, and for a good long while I held the hangover belief that talented artists must necessarily be assholes. After working in collaborative creative fields for some additional years, I learned that "talent" and "asshole" are two completely different axes -- they are totally unrelated, and there's a pretty good distribution of folks in every quadrant.
Quadrant I - untalented assholes. These are easy to avoid; nobody wants to work with them anyway.
Quadrant II - untalented non-assholes. I will sit through their shows and readings and art openings and try my best to find the best in them. Everyone deserves a chance to express themselves; most of us start out untalented; and most folks get better at their craft with practice.
Quadrant III - talented assholes. Very tricky. Very difficult. They generally believe that their horrible behavior somehow proves their talent; they're great at convincing others of the same. Give these folks any speck of power and they will use it to abuse others. FOMO, fear, and power imbalance often prevents people from walking away, but walking away is the only solution. Otherwise, they'll eat up your energy and keep you from doing the good work you could be doing.
Quadrant IV - talented non-assholes. Find them and cherish them. Walking away from a Quadrant III makes room in your life to work with the Quadrant IVs. When given power, these folks use it to lift up others. Per Robert Caro: "Power doesn’t corrupt, it reveals."
posted by ourobouros at 1:41 PM on May 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'd assumed that Lindelof (Insert Name Here) was better than this, and now see that the trust I had was greatly misplaced.
That’s the thing, how many times do we have to have this same thought about yet another person? How many times do we have to find out that a person we admire is actually a shit human being until we switch our default mode of believing that people, in general, aren’t all that bad, to thinking that everyone we meet, everyone we hear about, everyone we watch in any elevated position (arts, sports, politics, business, all of it) is a shit human being? When do we just stop choosing trust as a default, and approach the world and the people in it as evidence has shown, time and time again, how awful the people celebrated by society always end up being?
It’s exhausting, and yeah, I’ve learned to stop wanting to know about people, to not wanting to hear about people who are supposed to be great, because there’s always a story about how they are actually incredibly racist, or sexist, or homo or transphobic, just generally terribly bigoted, or outright abusive.
I don’t want to be someone who just approaches the world with the mindset that people are generally shit. It’s poison. But goddamn, the evidence is mounting all the goddamn time.
A little addenda: if you have these conversations long enough, you get to a point where someone says, well, if we get rid of all the “problematic” people, there won’t be any creative people left! It will affect the quality of (the scene/movies/tv/the sport)! That person? There’s a strong chance they would happily ignore any kind of abuse as long as they are being entertained by the abuser. That person? They’re showing you who they are. Listen to them, and believe them so you’re not shocked when their mask slips more, and they do something or say something utterly reprehensible.
posted by Ghidorah at 1:54 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
That’s the thing, how many times do we have to have this same thought about yet another person? How many times do we have to find out that a person we admire is actually a shit human being until we switch our default mode of believing that people, in general, aren’t all that bad, to thinking that everyone we meet, everyone we hear about, everyone we watch in any elevated position (arts, sports, politics, business, all of it) is a shit human being? When do we just stop choosing trust as a default, and approach the world and the people in it as evidence has shown, time and time again, how awful the people celebrated by society always end up being?
It’s exhausting, and yeah, I’ve learned to stop wanting to know about people, to not wanting to hear about people who are supposed to be great, because there’s always a story about how they are actually incredibly racist, or sexist, or homo or transphobic, just generally terribly bigoted, or outright abusive.
I don’t want to be someone who just approaches the world with the mindset that people are generally shit. It’s poison. But goddamn, the evidence is mounting all the goddamn time.
A little addenda: if you have these conversations long enough, you get to a point where someone says, well, if we get rid of all the “problematic” people, there won’t be any creative people left! It will affect the quality of (the scene/movies/tv/the sport)! That person? There’s a strong chance they would happily ignore any kind of abuse as long as they are being entertained by the abuser. That person? They’re showing you who they are. Listen to them, and believe them so you’re not shocked when their mask slips more, and they do something or say something utterly reprehensible.
posted by Ghidorah at 1:54 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think part of the problem is people don't really know how much of an asshole they could be until they have the power to be that. And another part of the problem is that a person in power builds the culture of the place they are in charge of and underlings don't want to buck that power so someone who is being an asshole in power creates an asshole power structure that sucks others into it.
It's clearly seen in startup bro-culture stuff that has been so clearly documented for years.
This is why I lamented any sort of real mentoring system for people coming up into power. Because if you leave things all status quo / bro like they are now, this will happen over and over again. But if production guilds or corporations or whomever were to take an actual interest in these things, they'd start a training tree where people who AREN'T this way take people under their wing and teach them how to avoid the worst part of themselves as they gain control within a system.
I don't really believe the trope that humans are rotten at their core. I do believe that it is easier and takes less energy to be rotten than not, and people need to be trained to have stronger Not Rotten muscles than rotten muscles. But that's a Mister Rogers level thing. That we don't do this overall in our society is a failing of society in general and not of individual humans.
posted by hippybear at 1:55 PM on May 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's clearly seen in startup bro-culture stuff that has been so clearly documented for years.
This is why I lamented any sort of real mentoring system for people coming up into power. Because if you leave things all status quo / bro like they are now, this will happen over and over again. But if production guilds or corporations or whomever were to take an actual interest in these things, they'd start a training tree where people who AREN'T this way take people under their wing and teach them how to avoid the worst part of themselves as they gain control within a system.
I don't really believe the trope that humans are rotten at their core. I do believe that it is easier and takes less energy to be rotten than not, and people need to be trained to have stronger Not Rotten muscles than rotten muscles. But that's a Mister Rogers level thing. That we don't do this overall in our society is a failing of society in general and not of individual humans.
posted by hippybear at 1:55 PM on May 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
do you think every person who's ever started a company is angling for this kind of power and harm
No, because I know that starting a company isn't starting a startup.
There are many modes of semi-ethically selling things that are made, making things that are sold, exchanging services for money, and even selling things that do not exist to people who like to pretend that they do, but that is not the same as starting a company for the express purpose of exploiting people with more talent than you to produce something for as little pay as possible and get rewarded - for the exploitation, not in most cases for a viable product - with a tremendous quantity of unrecoupable WhiteGuyBucks that will not be shared even remotely equitably with the people who produced the thing, all in the service of maintaining a tight money-power infrastructure system that safely remains in the control of white men.
But also yes, many people start companies because they want money but have no remarkable skills or talent and the idea of owning other people is really compelling to them. Even more people hustle the same infrastructure of white male power to be appointed some kind of leader at those companies for extraordinary amounts of either WhiteGuyBucks and/or money stolen from the production personnel while, again, having no real skills or talents, though maybe but not definitely an advanced Accounting for WhiteGuyBucks degree.
This whole infrastructure situation - which can be found in absolutely any industry one might think of including the non-startup tech industry, my personal hell, but especially shines in these two cases - is how you get white guys with any slight amount of talent and advanced networking connections like Lindelof, or Joss Whedon, promoted to positions of MASSIVE organizational power when their actual skill (which they had...but were also surrounded by extremely talented peers who didn't have their connections and appearance, where one of their additional skills was identifying and exploiting talent to fuel their own rise) was simply storycraft. It is always more important to reward Playing The Game By The White Rules and displaying the correct route to power to those underneath than to actually make the best possible product using non-exploited skilled resources with real administrative, production, management, and treating-people-like-humans chops.
Keeping the Infrastructure Guys in there is super important, and incidentally leads directly back to labor exploitation - in this case destroying the unions from every possible angle in order to maximize exploitation for profit at the top. The writers on the line today, unfortunately, are fighting for what they compromised on in the 2008 negotiations - this is all going to plan, and Whedon and Lindelof helped, or you wouldn't have heard their names much afterwards. I doubt there will be another strike, as there are now more ways to produce media without union labor than with.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:57 PM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
No, because I know that starting a company isn't starting a startup.
There are many modes of semi-ethically selling things that are made, making things that are sold, exchanging services for money, and even selling things that do not exist to people who like to pretend that they do, but that is not the same as starting a company for the express purpose of exploiting people with more talent than you to produce something for as little pay as possible and get rewarded - for the exploitation, not in most cases for a viable product - with a tremendous quantity of unrecoupable WhiteGuyBucks that will not be shared even remotely equitably with the people who produced the thing, all in the service of maintaining a tight money-power infrastructure system that safely remains in the control of white men.
But also yes, many people start companies because they want money but have no remarkable skills or talent and the idea of owning other people is really compelling to them. Even more people hustle the same infrastructure of white male power to be appointed some kind of leader at those companies for extraordinary amounts of either WhiteGuyBucks and/or money stolen from the production personnel while, again, having no real skills or talents, though maybe but not definitely an advanced Accounting for WhiteGuyBucks degree.
This whole infrastructure situation - which can be found in absolutely any industry one might think of including the non-startup tech industry, my personal hell, but especially shines in these two cases - is how you get white guys with any slight amount of talent and advanced networking connections like Lindelof, or Joss Whedon, promoted to positions of MASSIVE organizational power when their actual skill (which they had...but were also surrounded by extremely talented peers who didn't have their connections and appearance, where one of their additional skills was identifying and exploiting talent to fuel their own rise) was simply storycraft. It is always more important to reward Playing The Game By The White Rules and displaying the correct route to power to those underneath than to actually make the best possible product using non-exploited skilled resources with real administrative, production, management, and treating-people-like-humans chops.
Keeping the Infrastructure Guys in there is super important, and incidentally leads directly back to labor exploitation - in this case destroying the unions from every possible angle in order to maximize exploitation for profit at the top. The writers on the line today, unfortunately, are fighting for what they compromised on in the 2008 negotiations - this is all going to plan, and Whedon and Lindelof helped, or you wouldn't have heard their names much afterwards. I doubt there will be another strike, as there are now more ways to produce media without union labor than with.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:57 PM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
How many times do we have to find out that a person we admire is actually a shit human being until we switch our default mode of believing that people, in general, aren’t all that bad, to thinking that everyone we meet, everyone we hear about, everyone we watch in any elevated position (arts, sports, politics, business, all of it) is a shit human being?
Presumably because a lot of these people are at least self-aware enough to come off as pleasant in public (I note that Mo Ryan indicated that Lindelof was actually pretty easy to deal with in her job over the years, was definitely responsive), and people who can't put on that pleasant facade may just get found out faster. Some people may not have started out as assholes but became one when the power went to their head--I specifically remember some remark by Joss about how suddenly all these hot women wanted to sleep with him because he had power.
There's probably some "kiss above, kick below" behavior going on, especially with regards to the media, and also you just don't always find out someone's an asshole until you get on their bad side. God knows I listened to every episode of The Official Lost Podcast and would have had no idea from that that Lindelof and Cuse were blatantly obnoxious and racist in how they treated their staff (I mean, beyond how characters were written out of the show, which even then was kinda commented on). They always seemed calm and reasonable to me. I had no idea on the level of dickishness. But also, I didn't work for 'em.
In my recent experience, I have been patronizing a dude's business for several years and in my occasional interactions with him (mostly Zoom chats) he seemed perfectly fine and calm and reasonable and "woke." Well, recently the business went under and thus I have heard a whooooooooooole lot of terrible things about dude's behavior. Some of it hasn't been confirmed/commented on much, but apparently he had a reputation for canning people who worked for him and/or objected to anything. Sometimes you don't know there's a problem until you openly have a problem with someone--or you work for 'em.
Anyway, yeah, a lot of big shots become assholes or turn out to be one.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Presumably because a lot of these people are at least self-aware enough to come off as pleasant in public (I note that Mo Ryan indicated that Lindelof was actually pretty easy to deal with in her job over the years, was definitely responsive), and people who can't put on that pleasant facade may just get found out faster. Some people may not have started out as assholes but became one when the power went to their head--I specifically remember some remark by Joss about how suddenly all these hot women wanted to sleep with him because he had power.
There's probably some "kiss above, kick below" behavior going on, especially with regards to the media, and also you just don't always find out someone's an asshole until you get on their bad side. God knows I listened to every episode of The Official Lost Podcast and would have had no idea from that that Lindelof and Cuse were blatantly obnoxious and racist in how they treated their staff (I mean, beyond how characters were written out of the show, which even then was kinda commented on). They always seemed calm and reasonable to me. I had no idea on the level of dickishness. But also, I didn't work for 'em.
In my recent experience, I have been patronizing a dude's business for several years and in my occasional interactions with him (mostly Zoom chats) he seemed perfectly fine and calm and reasonable and "woke." Well, recently the business went under and thus I have heard a whooooooooooole lot of terrible things about dude's behavior. Some of it hasn't been confirmed/commented on much, but apparently he had a reputation for canning people who worked for him and/or objected to anything. Sometimes you don't know there's a problem until you openly have a problem with someone--or you work for 'em.
Anyway, yeah, a lot of big shots become assholes or turn out to be one.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
this is particularly interesting because Lindelof's last major project before Mrs. Davis was the Watchmen TV series, which was intimately concerned with race and had, I'm given to understand, several black writers in its writing room. I'd written off the guy as a hack long before, but at some point he started getting his hand on actually good work?
Which is why I'm so ready to reject the notion that power doesn't corrupt, power reveals. We know power corrupts, we've got replicable, scientific evidence of that. It feels like the idea that power "reveals" is a cliche to make people feel better, that of course if they got power they'd be fine, they're not racist (you are, I'm afraid), they have compassion (power measurably damages your ability to feel empathy). I'm just coming off hearing about an avowed communist who evolved his art collective into a game studio and was abusive to his staff, and at this point I've seen people betray their principles often enough and consistently enough that I cannot believe in an explanation that is not structural.
For similar reasons, I also hold the belief that assholes are being generated at a rate of knots, and while we shouldn't tolerate, like, rapists, neither can we get rid of all the assholes and just have non-assholes left, because most of the people we put up to replace them will become assholes.
Because the other thing I know about Lost is that the production of that show was a fucking trainwreck and no-one knew what they were doing. I think the comfort with racism and sexism in that writers' room is a consequence of that dysfunction. That room created assholes out of the people in it, and if any of us had been there, we would have turned out the same. I'd be very interested to see what the writers on Watchmen have to say about their experience.
posted by Merus at 6:27 PM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Which is why I'm so ready to reject the notion that power doesn't corrupt, power reveals. We know power corrupts, we've got replicable, scientific evidence of that. It feels like the idea that power "reveals" is a cliche to make people feel better, that of course if they got power they'd be fine, they're not racist (you are, I'm afraid), they have compassion (power measurably damages your ability to feel empathy). I'm just coming off hearing about an avowed communist who evolved his art collective into a game studio and was abusive to his staff, and at this point I've seen people betray their principles often enough and consistently enough that I cannot believe in an explanation that is not structural.
For similar reasons, I also hold the belief that assholes are being generated at a rate of knots, and while we shouldn't tolerate, like, rapists, neither can we get rid of all the assholes and just have non-assholes left, because most of the people we put up to replace them will become assholes.
Because the other thing I know about Lost is that the production of that show was a fucking trainwreck and no-one knew what they were doing. I think the comfort with racism and sexism in that writers' room is a consequence of that dysfunction. That room created assholes out of the people in it, and if any of us had been there, we would have turned out the same. I'd be very interested to see what the writers on Watchmen have to say about their experience.
posted by Merus at 6:27 PM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
I found this interview with Lindelof interesting in the context of the VF article:
All I can tell you is that I became aware of that behavior and tried to iterate forward. There’s a finite amount of microphones in this job, and you have to put down the mic and let someone else pick it up. You can use your experience to offer some guidance in terms of the mistakes that you made, but more importantly, it’s not too late for me to learn. I’m now the oldest person in the room by five or six years, and the youngers, they definitely do prioritize work-life balance and mental health.
The Mrs. Davis Writers’ Room Was Built With New Voices and New Values
posted by Omon Ra at 6:41 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
All I can tell you is that I became aware of that behavior and tried to iterate forward. There’s a finite amount of microphones in this job, and you have to put down the mic and let someone else pick it up. You can use your experience to offer some guidance in terms of the mistakes that you made, but more importantly, it’s not too late for me to learn. I’m now the oldest person in the room by five or six years, and the youngers, they definitely do prioritize work-life balance and mental health.
The Mrs. Davis Writers’ Room Was Built With New Voices and New Values
posted by Omon Ra at 6:41 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maureen Ryan is a gift.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 6:58 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 6:58 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have mixed feelings about LOST but I'm okay with never watching it again.
I happen to think The Leftovers and Watchmen are two of the best shows of the last decade and I really dig the premise of Mrs. Davis, so I want to watch that.
I've heard Lindelof talk a lot about supporting and promoting writers in his room a lot over recent years. He knew what Maureen Ryan was working on but I think his self-awareness pre-dates that as well.
The thing I keep thinking is that he knew he was out of his depth in the early days of LOST, so he brought Cuse on board - his old boss - to help him. From Cuse's responses, which is to deny everything, it's easy for me to think that he was the problem and that Lindelof was in a similarly abusive relationship with Cuse as everybody else was. Except Lindelof had some protection - and he didn't do anything to help anyone else who was suffering. I can totally believe he let Cuse get away with the abuse because he also felt intimidated and worried about his own future.
That said, some of the stuff Lindelof is quote as saying is totally appalling and it's hard for me to reconcile that with the considerate storytelling in Leftovers and Watchmen - two shows that didn't suffer the grind of a 22-ep-a-year network show.
Anyway, I'm someone who thought LOST improved in its final years; probably not coincidentally in the years when they didn't produce as many episodes. But they also found focus. I liked the ending to the point where I was looking forward to what Lindelof did next. (I always got the impression that Cuse was the domineering type, even in interviews at the time. The only thing Cuse has done post-LOST that was mildly interesting to me was Bates Motel and that was mostly a mess, too.)
I guess we keep hearing this stuff over and over because we're at a point where the writers from that show feel secure in their careers now - and we've had decades of shows run by monsters who can only really be exposed now because there's a move toward more cohesive sets.
This is great reporting and yeah, this is the tip of the iceberg. Most of the quotes are from people who aren't identified by name. I wonder if this will entice more people to come out.
posted by crossoverman at 9:26 PM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
I happen to think The Leftovers and Watchmen are two of the best shows of the last decade and I really dig the premise of Mrs. Davis, so I want to watch that.
I've heard Lindelof talk a lot about supporting and promoting writers in his room a lot over recent years. He knew what Maureen Ryan was working on but I think his self-awareness pre-dates that as well.
The thing I keep thinking is that he knew he was out of his depth in the early days of LOST, so he brought Cuse on board - his old boss - to help him. From Cuse's responses, which is to deny everything, it's easy for me to think that he was the problem and that Lindelof was in a similarly abusive relationship with Cuse as everybody else was. Except Lindelof had some protection - and he didn't do anything to help anyone else who was suffering. I can totally believe he let Cuse get away with the abuse because he also felt intimidated and worried about his own future.
That said, some of the stuff Lindelof is quote as saying is totally appalling and it's hard for me to reconcile that with the considerate storytelling in Leftovers and Watchmen - two shows that didn't suffer the grind of a 22-ep-a-year network show.
Anyway, I'm someone who thought LOST improved in its final years; probably not coincidentally in the years when they didn't produce as many episodes. But they also found focus. I liked the ending to the point where I was looking forward to what Lindelof did next. (I always got the impression that Cuse was the domineering type, even in interviews at the time. The only thing Cuse has done post-LOST that was mildly interesting to me was Bates Motel and that was mostly a mess, too.)
I guess we keep hearing this stuff over and over because we're at a point where the writers from that show feel secure in their careers now - and we've had decades of shows run by monsters who can only really be exposed now because there's a move toward more cohesive sets.
This is great reporting and yeah, this is the tip of the iceberg. Most of the quotes are from people who aren't identified by name. I wonder if this will entice more people to come out.
posted by crossoverman at 9:26 PM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think it's entirely possible for people to screw up and learn to do better, and I think if you compare the responses of Lindelof vs Cuse, and what people (were even involved in the first place and what they) say about their experiences on subsequent productions, you can see what some kinds of evolution look like.
And that issue is something people have been talking about for as long as we've been actually talking out loud about these people screwing up in the first place: do they deserve a second chance? What do we do if they already got one anyway? If we grant that a certain class of privileged people don't know what the roadmap of "learning better and doing better" is and have to be shown, shouldn't it be the obligation of recovering screwups to demonstrate that? (Ignoring that this suggests they should be allowed to continue to work in those esteemed positions.) It's probably unfair to expect Lindelof to single-handedly fix the system that put him in the position he's in, and as an individual it looks like he's doing what he can get away with within that system (sharing the microphone, as he's put it, and pulling up others onto his highly-visible platform).
In that position, does he still deserve to have to answer for his behavior on Lost for the rest of his career? And to that one, I think the answer is yes. I think that is part of the "learn better, do better, demonstrate how to do so" that he needs to be talking about how - with the passage of time - writers/crew on Watchmen feel they were treated and how he ran that room using what he learned from Lost (and so on with additional productions and passage of time), and be a louder voice for the safeguards and better practices other showrunners should be using and pointing out experts that can be called on to assist in that process.
I don't think anyone owes him forgiveness, though. If you can't engage with Lost knowing about this, that's fair, and if you don't wish to engage with his more recent/future productions, that's also fair, but I don't know if anyone is obligated to feel bad (even about Lost, which had lots of people who were not shitheads working on it too) about consuming those products either. I don't know if there is any fully ethical production under capitalism.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:07 AM on May 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
And that issue is something people have been talking about for as long as we've been actually talking out loud about these people screwing up in the first place: do they deserve a second chance? What do we do if they already got one anyway? If we grant that a certain class of privileged people don't know what the roadmap of "learning better and doing better" is and have to be shown, shouldn't it be the obligation of recovering screwups to demonstrate that? (Ignoring that this suggests they should be allowed to continue to work in those esteemed positions.) It's probably unfair to expect Lindelof to single-handedly fix the system that put him in the position he's in, and as an individual it looks like he's doing what he can get away with within that system (sharing the microphone, as he's put it, and pulling up others onto his highly-visible platform).
In that position, does he still deserve to have to answer for his behavior on Lost for the rest of his career? And to that one, I think the answer is yes. I think that is part of the "learn better, do better, demonstrate how to do so" that he needs to be talking about how - with the passage of time - writers/crew on Watchmen feel they were treated and how he ran that room using what he learned from Lost (and so on with additional productions and passage of time), and be a louder voice for the safeguards and better practices other showrunners should be using and pointing out experts that can be called on to assist in that process.
I don't think anyone owes him forgiveness, though. If you can't engage with Lost knowing about this, that's fair, and if you don't wish to engage with his more recent/future productions, that's also fair, but I don't know if anyone is obligated to feel bad (even about Lost, which had lots of people who were not shitheads working on it too) about consuming those products either. I don't know if there is any fully ethical production under capitalism.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:07 AM on May 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Damon Lindelof sucks, dude, lol.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:19 AM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:19 AM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, I picked the wrong year to start a Fanfare Lost rewatch.
There were a lot of known problems in Lost's showrunning already: Harold Perrineau was very vocal at the time of his character's exit that Lost was not writing its Black characters well; Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje's character's very violent death always felt punitive; Michelle Rodriguez and Cynthia Watros's characters were fridged; Evangeline Lilly felt she was coerced into doing underwear scenes; and there was a very noticeable revolving door of writers, some of whose exits were rumored to be acrimonious.
And Lindelof -- and Cuse to a much lesser extent, and the between-the-lines reading here is that Cuse was and remains a total shitbag who is utterly disinterested in interrogating his shitbaggery -- would issue apologetic mea culpas: we didn't do X, Y, and Z better, we didn't know how to at the time, we'll strive to do better, etc etc -- and we kinda believed them? And so as returning viewers we kinda tried to separate the art from the artist and look -- at its best, Lost was really really good so it was much in our interests to do so.
But this? This both confirms that yes, there were structural inequity issues in that room; and that the racism, in particular, was so much more worse and pervasive than previous stories had suggested.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:34 PM on May 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
There were a lot of known problems in Lost's showrunning already: Harold Perrineau was very vocal at the time of his character's exit that Lost was not writing its Black characters well; Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje's character's very violent death always felt punitive; Michelle Rodriguez and Cynthia Watros's characters were fridged; Evangeline Lilly felt she was coerced into doing underwear scenes; and there was a very noticeable revolving door of writers, some of whose exits were rumored to be acrimonious.
And Lindelof -- and Cuse to a much lesser extent, and the between-the-lines reading here is that Cuse was and remains a total shitbag who is utterly disinterested in interrogating his shitbaggery -- would issue apologetic mea culpas: we didn't do X, Y, and Z better, we didn't know how to at the time, we'll strive to do better, etc etc -- and we kinda believed them? And so as returning viewers we kinda tried to separate the art from the artist and look -- at its best, Lost was really really good so it was much in our interests to do so.
But this? This both confirms that yes, there were structural inequity issues in that room; and that the racism, in particular, was so much more worse and pervasive than previous stories had suggested.
I don't think anyone owes him forgiveness, though. If you can't engage with Lost knowing about this, that's fair, and if you don't wish to engage with his more recent/future productions, that's also fair, but I don't know if anyone is obligated to feel bad (even about Lost, which had lots of people who were not shitheads working on it too) about consuming those products either....and this is what I'm struggling with now. Goddamn it.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:34 PM on May 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Harold Perrineau was very vocal at the time of his character's exit that Lost was not writing its Black characters well;
I've been thinking about this watching From (which is kind of Walking Dead crossed with Lost), which stars Perrineau. (It's pretty good though admittedly I had low expectations going into it; the first season is free for those with Prime or a free trial to the new MGM service.)
posted by aught at 2:26 PM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking about this watching From (which is kind of Walking Dead crossed with Lost), which stars Perrineau. (It's pretty good though admittedly I had low expectations going into it; the first season is free for those with Prime or a free trial to the new MGM service.)
posted by aught at 2:26 PM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oooh, I just heard that Maureen Ryan's book also has a chapter on the atrociously racist clusterfuck that was Sleepy Hollow and now I am pre-ordering Burn It Down.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 9:28 PM on May 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 9:28 PM on May 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Holy shit this part:
When Owusu-Breen and her writing partner joined the ABC drama Brothers & Sisters, they were required to attend a seminar on avoiding and preventing racial and sexual harassment. Afterward, they went up to the people who ran the seminar and said, “Have you done this on Lost? Because they actually need to be reminded of all this,” Owusu-Breen recalled. “They just walked away from us, like that meme of Homer Simpson disappearing into the bush. They were walking backward, like, ‘No, no, we haven’t done that yet. We’re going to.’ You could tell everyone knew it was a toxic work environment. But it was a huge hit.”
I mean, so many other parts too, but that part, wow.
posted by mediareport at 4:54 AM on June 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
When Owusu-Breen and her writing partner joined the ABC drama Brothers & Sisters, they were required to attend a seminar on avoiding and preventing racial and sexual harassment. Afterward, they went up to the people who ran the seminar and said, “Have you done this on Lost? Because they actually need to be reminded of all this,” Owusu-Breen recalled. “They just walked away from us, like that meme of Homer Simpson disappearing into the bush. They were walking backward, like, ‘No, no, we haven’t done that yet. We’re going to.’ You could tell everyone knew it was a toxic work environment. But it was a huge hit.”
I mean, so many other parts too, but that part, wow.
posted by mediareport at 4:54 AM on June 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
'Muppets' EP Used Homophobic Slur and Leapt Across 'Fine Line Between Funny and Creepy,' Per New Book
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:42 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:42 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
‘Sleepy Hollow’ Created an “Us Against Her” Environment for Star Nicole Beharie, ‘Burn It Down’ Book Claims
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:40 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:40 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maureen Ryan on Why ‘Burn It Down’ Isn’t a “Trashy Cash Grab” and the Silence From Networks, Studios Over Allegations
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:44 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:44 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
‘Burn It Down’ Explores ‘SNL’ and Its “Culture of Impunity”
Recap of other articles, plus Goldbergs.
‘Burn It Down’ author Maureen Ryan has a suggestion for the Hollywood power structure. It’s right there in the title.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:41 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Recap of other articles, plus Goldbergs.
‘Burn It Down’ author Maureen Ryan has a suggestion for the Hollywood power structure. It’s right there in the title.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:41 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Was so gutted when Naomi was killed off, gratuitously knifed in the back by John Locke. She was such a cool character. I hope it wasn't because of her blackness.
Also, I often felt they didn't use the Chinese character Miles Straume nearly enough. He had this amazing pyschic ability and yet for most of the show he was just a hanger-on. What was the point of giving him psychic powers when he never actually used those powers in a way which had any impact on the plot, whatsoever? I wouldn't be surprised if it was just bad writing but these revelations do raise other possibilities.
posted by mokey at 12:28 PM on June 19, 2023
Also, I often felt they didn't use the Chinese character Miles Straume nearly enough. He had this amazing pyschic ability and yet for most of the show he was just a hanger-on. What was the point of giving him psychic powers when he never actually used those powers in a way which had any impact on the plot, whatsoever? I wouldn't be surprised if it was just bad writing but these revelations do raise other possibilities.
posted by mokey at 12:28 PM on June 19, 2023
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