We therefore advocate a revolution against the industrial system.
June 10, 2023 2:20 PM Subscribe
Theodore John Kaczynski, 1942-2023. A/k/a the Unabomber, Kaczynski died in prison, within North Carolina's Federal Medical Center.
Obituaries from The New York Times, Washington Post, the Guardian.
His 1995 manifesto Industrial Society and Its Future.
Previously.
Obituaries from The New York Times, Washington Post, the Guardian.
His 1995 manifesto Industrial Society and Its Future.
Previously.
.
posted by riruro at 2:34 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by riruro at 2:34 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
A detail in the Times' obituary that stood out:
At a super-maximum-security prison in Colorado, Mr. Kaczynski struck up friendships with inmates in neighboring cells: Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, and Timothy J. McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber. Mr. Kaczynski shared books and talked politics with them, and he got to know their birthdays, Yahoo News reported in 2016.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:35 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
At a super-maximum-security prison in Colorado, Mr. Kaczynski struck up friendships with inmates in neighboring cells: Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, and Timothy J. McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber. Mr. Kaczynski shared books and talked politics with them, and he got to know their birthdays, Yahoo News reported in 2016.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:35 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ok, seems fine.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:40 PM on June 10, 2023
posted by Going To Maine at 2:40 PM on June 10, 2023
We therefore advocate a revolution against the industrial system.
The “Unabomber we”
posted by Going To Maine at 2:50 PM on June 10, 2023 [27 favorites]
The “Unabomber we”
posted by Going To Maine at 2:50 PM on June 10, 2023 [27 favorites]
*
He was a murderer and a domestic terrorist, full stop.
His 'closely reasoned' manifesto made me realize his was a prodigious, superior yet brittle analytical intellect that some Patrick McGoohan-surrogate somewhere along the line must have fed a smartass question like 'W H Y ?' to, and shattered it... blew up his brain reeel guuud. You can almost see the red blinking 'CALL MECHANIC' light on his forehead in his photos.
If Zaphod Beeblebrox were real, if asked, he'd have said, 'Ted's just this guy...'
In death, his soul will be assigned to the Afterlife Technical Support call center, where he will spend eternity advising other tormented souls, 'Have you tried turning it off and on again?'
With his passing... problem solved.
posted by zaixfeep at 2:51 PM on June 10, 2023 [39 favorites]
He was a murderer and a domestic terrorist, full stop.
His 'closely reasoned' manifesto made me realize his was a prodigious, superior yet brittle analytical intellect that some Patrick McGoohan-surrogate somewhere along the line must have fed a smartass question like 'W H Y ?' to, and shattered it... blew up his brain reeel guuud. You can almost see the red blinking 'CALL MECHANIC' light on his forehead in his photos.
If Zaphod Beeblebrox were real, if asked, he'd have said, 'Ted's just this guy...'
In death, his soul will be assigned to the Afterlife Technical Support call center, where he will spend eternity advising other tormented souls, 'Have you tried turning it off and on again?'
With his passing... problem solved.
posted by zaixfeep at 2:51 PM on June 10, 2023 [39 favorites]
The “Unabomber we”
Probably the mathematician we, to be honest. The photo of a young Kaczynski that's on Wikipedia and wherever else is totally the Berkeley math department photo almost certainly taken by George Bergman.
posted by hoyland at 2:54 PM on June 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
Probably the mathematician we, to be honest. The photo of a young Kaczynski that's on Wikipedia and wherever else is totally the Berkeley math department photo almost certainly taken by George Bergman.
posted by hoyland at 2:54 PM on June 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber
Through research at the Murray Center and in the Harvard archives I found that, among its other purposes, Henry Murray’s experiment was intended to measure how people react under stress. Murray subjected his unwitting students, including Kaczynski, to intensive interrogation—what Murray himself called “vehement, sweeping, and personally abusive” attacks, assaulting his subjects’ egos and most-cherished ideals and beliefs.
posted by mecran01 at 3:02 PM on June 10, 2023 [37 favorites]
Through research at the Murray Center and in the Harvard archives I found that, among its other purposes, Henry Murray’s experiment was intended to measure how people react under stress. Murray subjected his unwitting students, including Kaczynski, to intensive interrogation—what Murray himself called “vehement, sweeping, and personally abusive” attacks, assaulting his subjects’ egos and most-cherished ideals and beliefs.
posted by mecran01 at 3:02 PM on June 10, 2023 [37 favorites]
One story:
I met Ted Kaczynski's brother and sister-in-law entirely by accident, around 2005. She, a fine professor at Union College, invited me to speak to her colleagues, which I did. After, she asked me if I minded going out to dinner with herself and her brother. Not at all, I said, and this is how I learned to Google everybody. The gentleman joined us and I, knowing nothing of this guy, and always being shameless, asked what he did with his time.
"I work to stop the death penalty," was his immediate response.
Me: "How did you get into that line of work?"
Him: "My name is David Kaczynski." He paused to let me think. His wife didn't use that last name - she was Linda Patrik - and David must have seen the lightbulb go on over my head. "Yes, the Unabomber is my brother," he continued, with some weariness, I imagined. "Linda and I turned him in." They thought Ted would get mental health treatment, not the death penalty. They also made money on the story, and, I think, David decided to give back by lobbying Albany.
At dinner David was terrific. There were some fun moments. We were discussing cell phones (this was just before the iPhone, I think) and he was offering a thoughtful, informed critique. Then he leaned forward with a smile: "But I don't want you to get the impression that I'm too critical. I'm not my brother, after all."
Later, I told David and Linda about our then-new home in Vermont, half off the grid, where we hoped to raise plants and animals. David sighed. "When we were kids, Ted and I wanted a house like that." I never forgot that.
posted by doctornemo at 3:11 PM on June 10, 2023 [212 favorites]
I met Ted Kaczynski's brother and sister-in-law entirely by accident, around 2005. She, a fine professor at Union College, invited me to speak to her colleagues, which I did. After, she asked me if I minded going out to dinner with herself and her brother. Not at all, I said, and this is how I learned to Google everybody. The gentleman joined us and I, knowing nothing of this guy, and always being shameless, asked what he did with his time.
"I work to stop the death penalty," was his immediate response.
Me: "How did you get into that line of work?"
Him: "My name is David Kaczynski." He paused to let me think. His wife didn't use that last name - she was Linda Patrik - and David must have seen the lightbulb go on over my head. "Yes, the Unabomber is my brother," he continued, with some weariness, I imagined. "Linda and I turned him in." They thought Ted would get mental health treatment, not the death penalty. They also made money on the story, and, I think, David decided to give back by lobbying Albany.
At dinner David was terrific. There were some fun moments. We were discussing cell phones (this was just before the iPhone, I think) and he was offering a thoughtful, informed critique. Then he leaned forward with a smile: "But I don't want you to get the impression that I'm too critical. I'm not my brother, after all."
Later, I told David and Linda about our then-new home in Vermont, half off the grid, where we hoped to raise plants and animals. David sighed. "When we were kids, Ted and I wanted a house like that." I never forgot that.
posted by doctornemo at 3:11 PM on June 10, 2023 [212 favorites]
With his passing... problem solved.
If only.
posted by mhoye at 3:18 PM on June 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
If only.
posted by mhoye at 3:18 PM on June 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
The Grim Reaper has been making some pretty good decisions recently.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:23 PM on June 10, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:23 PM on June 10, 2023 [19 favorites]
With his passing… problem solved.
Together with doctornemo’s story of the brother’s work on abolishing the death penalty, that certainly puts a different spin on “reducing to a problem already solved”.
posted by eviemath at 3:25 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Together with doctornemo’s story of the brother’s work on abolishing the death penalty, that certainly puts a different spin on “reducing to a problem already solved”.
posted by eviemath at 3:25 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hugh Scrutton, Thomas Mosser, Gilbert Murray.
These are the names of the people Kaczynski killed, and that’s not to mention the many others he injured, most of whom had permanent disabilities.
posted by Kattullus at 3:26 PM on June 10, 2023 [81 favorites]
These are the names of the people Kaczynski killed, and that’s not to mention the many others he injured, most of whom had permanent disabilities.
posted by Kattullus at 3:26 PM on June 10, 2023 [81 favorites]
I can't imagine being the one to turn in your brother. Especially if you thought he wasn't going to be up for the death penalty (not that that matters, I guess).
That said, I can't even pretend to be sad this guy is gone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:29 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
That said, I can't even pretend to be sad this guy is gone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:29 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
His manifesto diagnosing the problems with industrial capitalism gets a six out of ten from me.
His proposed solution gets minus several million out of ten.
posted by happyinmotion at 3:30 PM on June 10, 2023 [24 favorites]
His proposed solution gets minus several million out of ten.
posted by happyinmotion at 3:30 PM on June 10, 2023 [24 favorites]
Not gonna lie, dude made me question the world and it completed disrupted my paradigm. Not sure I’d be the same person otherwise. I think I still have a copy of the original NYT manifestos somewhere in my archives.
posted by slogger at 4:02 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by slogger at 4:02 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, his manifesto makes a lot of really good points. His conclusions are bullshit, but I've reread his piece more than a couple of times across the decades. I could see a universe in which his brain didn't break and he did good things.
posted by hippybear at 4:02 PM on June 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:02 PM on June 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
I could see a universe in which his brain didn't break and he did good things.
This is the nature of extremism; there’s always a grain of truth in the cause, it’s just the conclusions and actions they take are radically different. I mean, not radically different to each other, as most extremists just seem to want to excuse terrible acts of violence. They’re radically different to what we might do, which is probably “talk about it with some friends, maybe get involved in charitable work”.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:15 PM on June 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
This is the nature of extremism; there’s always a grain of truth in the cause, it’s just the conclusions and actions they take are radically different. I mean, not radically different to each other, as most extremists just seem to want to excuse terrible acts of violence. They’re radically different to what we might do, which is probably “talk about it with some friends, maybe get involved in charitable work”.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:15 PM on June 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
...including David Gelernter, who I think probably would've taken a less distressing intellectual path if he hadn't had his right hand basically blown off.
posted by praemunire at 4:16 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 4:16 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, I mean, in this Pride month, I'm not going to discount the queens who decided to start throwing pennies at the cops for three days all those decades ago. Not everyone is an extremist, and not everyone just talks to their friends.
posted by hippybear at 4:20 PM on June 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:20 PM on June 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
He was the pre-Columbine , pre-9/11 bogeyman. I have very clear memories of reading the Newsweek article about him in the lobby of the EAB Plaza in Hempstead, NY during the summer of 1995. I was employed by a frustrated jazz pianist who had decided that the "people everywhere are owed refunds on their mortgages but just don't know! buy the list and GET RICH" thing was a good investment. He had me doing TRW searches of all of the names to get addresses and then mail them letters. All of this was in a rent-an-office place, like WeWork way before WeWork existed, and much more expensive. Our office had no windows and my boss played smooth jazz all day long, which was 50% "Smooth Operator" in various incarnations. He eventually freaked out when he got the bill for all of my TRW searching and printing stuff out on the shared printers. That was the summer that my parents swapped out my automatic minivan for a manual transmission 1983 Volkswagen Rabbit, without really teaching my how to drive stick. So the first week or so of commuting was not unlike the scene in Suburban Commando where Christopher Lloyd keeps losing at the "rat race." At one point I was running an errand for my boss and my car overheated, spewing green coolant everywhere, and I had to have it towed. He did not give me the rest of the day off. I also learned how to pop my clutch due to my bad habit of killing my battery by leaving the lights on when I parked in the parking garage. Always park on an incline!
Anyhow, that job made me never want to commute by car ever again.
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:20 PM on June 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
Anyhow, that job made me never want to commute by car ever again.
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:20 PM on June 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
...including David Gelernter, who I think probably would've taken a less distressing intellectual path if he hadn't had his right hand basically blown off.
From the Wikipedia entry:
He is in addition known for his views against women in the workforce, and his rejection of the scientific consensus regarding anthropogenic climate change and evolution.
I dunno, looks like you’re giving a piece of shit a pretty wide pass there.
posted by slogger at 4:36 PM on June 10, 2023 [28 favorites]
From the Wikipedia entry:
He is in addition known for his views against women in the workforce, and his rejection of the scientific consensus regarding anthropogenic climate change and evolution.
I dunno, looks like you’re giving a piece of shit a pretty wide pass there.
posted by slogger at 4:36 PM on June 10, 2023 [28 favorites]
Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber
a long, discursive and fascinating read. and one of the more disturbing things i've read in a while.
posted by lalochezia at 4:46 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's not a lot in the Unabomber Manifesto that would appear out of place amongst the ramblings of Jordan Peterson.
And much as I may marvel at the professional psychologist's absurd lack of personal insight, I cannot but marvel more at the professional mathematician's complete failure to display any grasp of scale.
*
posted by flabdablet at 4:49 PM on June 10, 2023 [25 favorites]
And much as I may marvel at the professional psychologist's absurd lack of personal insight, I cannot but marvel more at the professional mathematician's complete failure to display any grasp of scale.
*
posted by flabdablet at 4:49 PM on June 10, 2023 [25 favorites]
hoyland, that is soooo weird. I work for UCB Math department, with George Bergman...I had no idea Kaczynski had been there. I guess I need to ask George about this, if that is not too weird.
posted by supermedusa at 4:49 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 4:49 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I never paid much attention to the Unabomber due to my being sequestered in grad school at the time he was nabbed, but every time I do wade into thinking about him, I almost always see John Brown.
Surely I can't be alone in that.
A "he's not all wrong, you know" bubbles up, for a moment, then I think, "no."
And yet, in "John Brown--for or against?" I get tangled up.
Thus endeth the derail.
posted by nothing.especially.clever at 4:53 PM on June 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
Surely I can't be alone in that.
A "he's not all wrong, you know" bubbles up, for a moment, then I think, "no."
And yet, in "John Brown--for or against?" I get tangled up.
Thus endeth the derail.
posted by nothing.especially.clever at 4:53 PM on June 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
My Brother, The Unabomber
At the time, I never questioned that the four members of our family were connected through unbreakable bonds of love. Only as I neared adolescence did I realize that Ted didn't return our parents' love—at least not in ways that were easy to recognize or receive. When hugged as a child, he squirmed instead of hugging back. In adolescence, he stiffened when embraced by our mother. It was as if his way of relating followed a different set of rules. Unable to fathom Ted's internal physics, Dad eventually gave up, whereas Mom preferred to believe that her son's sensitive inner self was normal and loving, only hard to reach because of his hospital experience.
posted by Brian B. at 4:54 PM on June 10, 2023 [17 favorites]
At the time, I never questioned that the four members of our family were connected through unbreakable bonds of love. Only as I neared adolescence did I realize that Ted didn't return our parents' love—at least not in ways that were easy to recognize or receive. When hugged as a child, he squirmed instead of hugging back. In adolescence, he stiffened when embraced by our mother. It was as if his way of relating followed a different set of rules. Unable to fathom Ted's internal physics, Dad eventually gave up, whereas Mom preferred to believe that her son's sensitive inner self was normal and loving, only hard to reach because of his hospital experience.
posted by Brian B. at 4:54 PM on June 10, 2023 [17 favorites]
I dunno, looks like you’re giving a piece of shit a pretty wide pass there.
Where did I say I was giving him a pass? Having your hand blown off and your eye badly injured by a terrorist attack in (IIRC) your own office is the kind of thing that sends people down dark roads.
posted by praemunire at 5:12 PM on June 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
Where did I say I was giving him a pass? Having your hand blown off and your eye badly injured by a terrorist attack in (IIRC) your own office is the kind of thing that sends people down dark roads.
posted by praemunire at 5:12 PM on June 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
Bit of family lore, my father lived in the same neighborhood as the Kaczynskis and was about the same age as Ted. Mr Kaczynski asked Dad to teach Ted how to play baseball with the hopes he'd better fit in with the neighbor kids.
posted by jazon at 5:16 PM on June 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by jazon at 5:16 PM on June 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
Thank goodness they got this venomous person put away before his evil could have influenced more persons
posted by robbyrobs at 5:17 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 5:17 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I nearly got blown up in WTC1 on 9-11 and you don’t see me spewing sexism and climate denial. Trauma is no excuse for that type of venom. Especially if one has a platform to a mass audience. Please.
posted by slogger at 5:17 PM on June 10, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by slogger at 5:17 PM on June 10, 2023 [35 favorites]
I work for UCB Math department, with George Bergman...I had no idea Kaczynski had been there.
they probably don't play up that angle during the interviews
posted by logicpunk at 5:20 PM on June 10, 2023 [22 favorites]
they probably don't play up that angle during the interviews
posted by logicpunk at 5:20 PM on June 10, 2023 [22 favorites]
MetaFilter: a long, discursive and fascinating read. and one of the more disturbing things i've read in a while.
posted by zaixfeep at 5:22 PM on June 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 5:22 PM on June 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
If Global Warming kills a billion people by the end of the century he will be seen differently then than we are seeing him now.
A billion is only about twice as many in absolute terms as smallpox killed in the 20th, and that would make smallpox even more deadly than GW on a per capita basis since world population is estimated at ~2 billion in 2022 compared to our ~7.8 billion.
I thought of John Brown as well.
posted by jamjam at 5:34 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
A billion is only about twice as many in absolute terms as smallpox killed in the 20th, and that would make smallpox even more deadly than GW on a per capita basis since world population is estimated at ~2 billion in 2022 compared to our ~7.8 billion.
I thought of John Brown as well.
posted by jamjam at 5:34 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Back in the Unibomber days, a friend and I were going to see a talk with Werner Herzog at the Goethe Institute here in San Francisco. It was also the day when the Manifesto was published. Only the Oakland Tribune published it around here, and my friend lived in Oakland and she picked up two copies and brought them along. During his talk he brought up the Unibomber. After the talk, we went up to him and asked him if he wanted a copy of the Manifesto. His face lit up, you have it? he asked. Yeah, here it is, we said, and handed him a copy. He was happy. Don’t know what he did with it though.
posted by njohnson23 at 5:50 PM on June 10, 2023 [30 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 5:50 PM on June 10, 2023 [30 favorites]
Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber
This account describes a fragile person subjected to extreme stresses. It doesn't quite make a direct connection between Henry Murray and Sidney Gottleib's MK Ultra project, but there is a reasonable implication their work intersected.
posted by ovvl at 5:55 PM on June 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
This account describes a fragile person subjected to extreme stresses. It doesn't quite make a direct connection between Henry Murray and Sidney Gottleib's MK Ultra project, but there is a reasonable implication their work intersected.
posted by ovvl at 5:55 PM on June 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
Some of this conversation parallels those that people have had about Valerie Solanas.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:03 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:03 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Here's an old 1996 Washington Post article about Kaczynski's days as a math prof at Berkeley:
Course booklets from the time show that Kaczynski taught introduction to the theory of sets in the fall of 1968. In the spring of 1969, his last semester of teaching, Kaczynski taught number systems. Both were upper division undergraduate mathematics courses. He also taught graduate student courses in general topology and function spaces.
"This guy was probably one of the top 20 to 25 PhDs out of 800 coming out that year," Addison said. But his brilliance did not translate into teaching skills.
An informal, unscientific survey used by a student organization to evaluate faculty members paints a picture of a distant, cold teacher bereft of any charisma or flair.
The survey quotes: "These six assorted questionnaires from last year agreed that Kaczynski's lectures were useless and right from the book. Three questionnaires from the Math 120A class last spring said he showed no concern for the students." The survey then quoted an anonymous student: "He absolutely refuses to answer questions by completely ignoring the students." Six students gave him grades of one B, one C, one D, and three Fs.
posted by jonp72 at 6:05 PM on June 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
Course booklets from the time show that Kaczynski taught introduction to the theory of sets in the fall of 1968. In the spring of 1969, his last semester of teaching, Kaczynski taught number systems. Both were upper division undergraduate mathematics courses. He also taught graduate student courses in general topology and function spaces.
"This guy was probably one of the top 20 to 25 PhDs out of 800 coming out that year," Addison said. But his brilliance did not translate into teaching skills.
An informal, unscientific survey used by a student organization to evaluate faculty members paints a picture of a distant, cold teacher bereft of any charisma or flair.
The survey quotes: "These six assorted questionnaires from last year agreed that Kaczynski's lectures were useless and right from the book. Three questionnaires from the Math 120A class last spring said he showed no concern for the students." The survey then quoted an anonymous student: "He absolutely refuses to answer questions by completely ignoring the students." Six students gave him grades of one B, one C, one D, and three Fs.
posted by jonp72 at 6:05 PM on June 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
My wife's uncle from Montana had a cabin on the same mountain as the Unabomber. Kaczynski was such a lunatic that he overturned my wife's uncle's outhouse. I mean, how do you get to be such a Luddite that you destroy outhouses? Didn't they solve how to poop in a hole in the ground by the Neolithic era?
posted by jonp72 at 6:14 PM on June 10, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by jonp72 at 6:14 PM on June 10, 2023 [18 favorites]
Yeah, I nearly got blown up in WTC1 on 9-11 and you don’t see me spewing sexism and climate denial. Trauma is no excuse for that type of venom. Especially if one has a platform to a mass audience. Please.
The fact that you seem unable to grasp that I am not talking about excuses--that you read "it's a pity that this very intelligent guy had this intensely traumatic experience that sent him down the wrong road" as "this guy's trauma means it's okay that he adopted all sort of hateful views"--suggests to me that we are operating in entirely different models of morality and the human psyche and so can't have a profitable conversation.
P.S. I'm a woman and in the professional workforce, in case you missed that.
posted by praemunire at 6:47 PM on June 10, 2023 [29 favorites]
The fact that you seem unable to grasp that I am not talking about excuses--that you read "it's a pity that this very intelligent guy had this intensely traumatic experience that sent him down the wrong road" as "this guy's trauma means it's okay that he adopted all sort of hateful views"--suggests to me that we are operating in entirely different models of morality and the human psyche and so can't have a profitable conversation.
P.S. I'm a woman and in the professional workforce, in case you missed that.
posted by praemunire at 6:47 PM on June 10, 2023 [29 favorites]
Rest in peace to a guy that was wrong about pretty much everything. But the things he was right about are real doozies.
posted by jy4m at 7:06 PM on June 10, 2023
posted by jy4m at 7:06 PM on June 10, 2023
If Global Warming kills a billion people by the end of the century he will be seen differently then than we are seeing him now.
If anybody happens to read this comment at the end of the century, let me just point out to you that Paragraph 204 advocates having as many children as possible.
Like I said. No grasp of scale.
posted by flabdablet at 7:11 PM on June 10, 2023 [23 favorites]
If anybody happens to read this comment at the end of the century, let me just point out to you that Paragraph 204 advocates having as many children as possible.
Like I said. No grasp of scale.
posted by flabdablet at 7:11 PM on June 10, 2023 [23 favorites]
Thanks praemunire. I understand your point and now see I was mischaracterizing your comment. I just have a low tolerance for toxic trolls like Gelernter, whose hateful opinions can be framed as a response to trauma. Given the psychological abuse that Kaczynski suffered under Murray, perhaps we should view him under a different light as well?
P.S. I'm a woman and in the professional workforce, in case you missed that.
I’m not sure how this is germane to the discussion, but if I wrote something that could be considered ad hominem, I do indeed apologize.
posted by slogger at 7:13 PM on June 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
P.S. I'm a woman and in the professional workforce, in case you missed that.
I’m not sure how this is germane to the discussion, but if I wrote something that could be considered ad hominem, I do indeed apologize.
posted by slogger at 7:13 PM on June 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm always baffled that anyone wants to read the manifestoes of these terrorists / incels / supremacists / etc., because, seriously, what the hell are you hoping to learn? Can there ever be an explanation that makes you go, "Oh, okay. Now I get it."?
posted by dobbs at 7:16 PM on June 10, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by dobbs at 7:16 PM on June 10, 2023 [22 favorites]
I was never that impressed with Ted’s psychological framework, as far as its applicability to people who aren’t Ted. And it’s really the heart of his critique of technology and society. The manifesto definitely tends to be granted a bit of extra credit by people who want to be edgy by saying that the Unabomber had some good points. It’s readable, but the best parts aren’t that original and the original parts aren’t that good.
His life story as a whole is unavoidably kind of fascinating, though.
posted by atoxyl at 7:24 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
His life story as a whole is unavoidably kind of fascinating, though.
posted by atoxyl at 7:24 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
That being said, the argument of “maybe if jerk had t gotten hurt he wouldn’t be such a jerk” is a line of thinking I am very uncomfortable with and the conclusions it can take one to.
posted by slogger at 7:30 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by slogger at 7:30 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
the thing about kacynzski was that a bombing campaign wouldn't have stopped the march of technology transforming humanity into the horrible state we find it, almost nothing would have stopped it, so instead it just inflicted pain and death on people who were just going about their lives. there are many things he could have done besides kill people. i did read his manifesto, years ago, and it reminded me a lot of jacques ellul's work, which i think he cribbed a lot from, with a dose of unhinged. i'm not a pacifist, i think violence can be necessary, but it shouldn't be stupid.
posted by dis_integration at 7:32 PM on June 10, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 7:32 PM on June 10, 2023 [21 favorites]
I’m not generally a fan of the way “trauma is no excuse” tends to get deployed, as an exception-making device, in conversation among liberal-leaning people who are otherwise happy to acknowledge the idea of individuals being influenced by their environment and experiences as something that can be discussed separately from moral judgement. But I’m not really clear whether there’s any specific reason to think that Gelernter surviving the attack influenced his present-day politics. It feels a little more straightforward to draw lines from Kaczinski’s experiences to his eventual ideology but maybe there’s something about Gelernter I don’t know.
posted by atoxyl at 7:47 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 7:47 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
“ If Global Warming kills a billion people by the end of the century he will be seen differently then than we are seeing him now.”
No. I don’t think so. His choice to send bombs by mail doesn’t really seem a great way to enact any change that he might have thought necessary. Maiming and killing innocents capriciously won’t be justified later on by climate disasters. Nothing he was doing had a hope in hell of bringing any changes to prevent climate change. Even if you feel he was right in his ideas, the actions he took aren’t and won’t be justified.
posted by jzb at 7:59 PM on June 10, 2023 [41 favorites]
No. I don’t think so. His choice to send bombs by mail doesn’t really seem a great way to enact any change that he might have thought necessary. Maiming and killing innocents capriciously won’t be justified later on by climate disasters. Nothing he was doing had a hope in hell of bringing any changes to prevent climate change. Even if you feel he was right in his ideas, the actions he took aren’t and won’t be justified.
posted by jzb at 7:59 PM on June 10, 2023 [41 favorites]
Nothing he was doing had a hope in hell of bringing any changes to prevent climate change.
As I read the manifesto he wasn’t even primarily concerned with the unsustainability of industrial civilization. More than anything he was concerned with the idea that - an idiosyncratic set of ideas about why - it’s inherently alienating.
posted by atoxyl at 8:10 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
As I read the manifesto he wasn’t even primarily concerned with the unsustainability of industrial civilization. More than anything he was concerned with the idea that - an idiosyncratic set of ideas about why - it’s inherently alienating.
posted by atoxyl at 8:10 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
seriously, what the hell are you hoping to learn?
For me: mainly how closely the expressed positions of these awful people hew to those whom their compatriots are willing to elect to high office.
You'd not get a ciggie paper between Kaczynski and Taylor Greene on leftists, for example, once you allow for Kaczynski being more literate.
posted by flabdablet at 8:21 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
For me: mainly how closely the expressed positions of these awful people hew to those whom their compatriots are willing to elect to high office.
You'd not get a ciggie paper between Kaczynski and Taylor Greene on leftists, for example, once you allow for Kaczynski being more literate.
posted by flabdablet at 8:21 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
zaixfeep: Re: your first comment: you operate on a bit of a different wavelength to everyone else, and I think I like it. In the words of Homer Simpsons, your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
posted by BiggerJ at 8:25 PM on June 10, 2023
posted by BiggerJ at 8:25 PM on June 10, 2023
I knew Kaczynski had haunted both of the math departments where I got my education, but I never knew what kind of math he did until I saw this paper by Lara Pudwell. Don't miss the footnote on the first page.
posted by aws17576 at 9:42 PM on June 10, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by aws17576 at 9:42 PM on June 10, 2023 [23 favorites]
Literally all he wanted to do was find a reason to hurt people and make it morally OK in his worldview.
Mailbombs are a loser technique, when you can’t actually hit your target, you’re not willing to risk yourself, and are willing to just hit anyone adjacent to your target to make yourself feel better about your failure. It’s the idea that makes it OK to kill/maim a mailroom employee because that will make the bossman afraid.
It doesn’t make the boss afraid, it just hurts some schmoe trying to feed their kids.
posted by aramaic at 10:11 PM on June 10, 2023 [26 favorites]
Mailbombs are a loser technique, when you can’t actually hit your target, you’re not willing to risk yourself, and are willing to just hit anyone adjacent to your target to make yourself feel better about your failure. It’s the idea that makes it OK to kill/maim a mailroom employee because that will make the bossman afraid.
It doesn’t make the boss afraid, it just hurts some schmoe trying to feed their kids.
posted by aramaic at 10:11 PM on June 10, 2023 [26 favorites]
You do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"
posted by credulous at 10:12 PM on June 10, 2023 [55 favorites]
posted by credulous at 10:12 PM on June 10, 2023 [55 favorites]
It’s readable, but the best parts aren’t that original and the original parts aren’t that good.
Yeah, it was a mix of platitudes when I read it, and it was hyped. But bombing secretaries and airliners with random victims on board makes him a psychopath hiding behind his best excuse to murder. The irony is that by rejecting people he didn't realize his unoriginal ideas were part of daily conversation. Then he became the loner face of anti-technology in a mug shot, harming his viewpoint. He was a hero to those who thought his credentials meant that he couldn't be insane (therefore they couldn't be). It is telling that he was killing people before he published his message, as if he realized he needed a PR fix at the last minute.
posted by Brian B. at 10:15 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yeah, it was a mix of platitudes when I read it, and it was hyped. But bombing secretaries and airliners with random victims on board makes him a psychopath hiding behind his best excuse to murder. The irony is that by rejecting people he didn't realize his unoriginal ideas were part of daily conversation. Then he became the loner face of anti-technology in a mug shot, harming his viewpoint. He was a hero to those who thought his credentials meant that he couldn't be insane (therefore they couldn't be). It is telling that he was killing people before he published his message, as if he realized he needed a PR fix at the last minute.
posted by Brian B. at 10:15 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
There's not a lot in the Unabomber Manifesto that would appear out of place amongst the ramblings of Jordan Peterson.
Yeah. In my head, rereading the manifesto for the first time since it’s publication, I was struck by how just banal it is. I want to reach into history and scream “your ideas aren’t as amazing as you think they are and whatever actions you want to take are a deadly vanity project so just fucking stop .” Time travel fantasy aside, I really hope people take the right lesson about this kind of drivel. Society has seen that kind of absolutest manifesto in some form or another since there was society. If you don’t have buy in from other people, it’s not because your idea is so revolutionary no one understands you, it’s because they’re bad ideas. No, it’s not a perfect test and agreement doesn’t make it the right. But it’s an extremely low bar to follow at a minimum.
If Global Warming kills a billion people by the end of the century he will be seen differently then than we are seeing him now.
No, he won’t. Better people have written more thoughtfully on these topics. He was wackadoo crazy and needed to justify his desire to hurt people. End. Of. Story.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:30 PM on June 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
Yeah. In my head, rereading the manifesto for the first time since it’s publication, I was struck by how just banal it is. I want to reach into history and scream “your ideas aren’t as amazing as you think they are and whatever actions you want to take are a deadly vanity project so just fucking stop .” Time travel fantasy aside, I really hope people take the right lesson about this kind of drivel. Society has seen that kind of absolutest manifesto in some form or another since there was society. If you don’t have buy in from other people, it’s not because your idea is so revolutionary no one understands you, it’s because they’re bad ideas. No, it’s not a perfect test and agreement doesn’t make it the right. But it’s an extremely low bar to follow at a minimum.
If Global Warming kills a billion people by the end of the century he will be seen differently then than we are seeing him now.
No, he won’t. Better people have written more thoughtfully on these topics. He was wackadoo crazy and needed to justify his desire to hurt people. End. Of. Story.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:30 PM on June 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
Mod note: Removed: bomb emoji as (presumably a ".") comment. This isn't striking people as appropriate.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:48 PM on June 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 10:48 PM on June 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
Parts of this conversation are running interestingly parallel to certain plot elements of Kim Stanley Robinson's The Ministry for the Future (link to Crooked Timber seminar on the novel).
posted by vitia at 11:13 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by vitia at 11:13 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's really, really important to remember that the deceased was instrumental to the fascist terrorists in Buffalo, El Paso, Christchurch, and Utøya, amongst many others.
So maybe that's worth thinking about if you're thinking "yeah but he had some good ideas".
posted by prismatic7 at 11:47 PM on June 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
So maybe that's worth thinking about if you're thinking "yeah but he had some good ideas".
posted by prismatic7 at 11:47 PM on June 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
Influential, perhaps. “Instrumental” would tend to imply that he was actively of assistance which, probably not.
posted by atoxyl at 11:56 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 11:56 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Does my choice of words make the connection obsolete? No.
A direct line can be drawn from the terror campaign of the dead man to the terror campaigns of multiple white supremacist terrorists, including terrorists who have acted with the tacit support of a former President of the US. The deceased's actions are very much part of the reason we are where we are now, and I don't think that's particularly a good place.
The only good (eco-)fascist is a dead one. I'm amazed that this is even debatable in 2023.
posted by prismatic7 at 12:13 AM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
A direct line can be drawn from the terror campaign of the dead man to the terror campaigns of multiple white supremacist terrorists, including terrorists who have acted with the tacit support of a former President of the US. The deceased's actions are very much part of the reason we are where we are now, and I don't think that's particularly a good place.
The only good (eco-)fascist is a dead one. I'm amazed that this is even debatable in 2023.
posted by prismatic7 at 12:13 AM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's weird how this particular murderous terrorist gets some sort of romantic treatment, like he had some Interesting Ideas and just was a little strange. You know, like mathematicians are sometimes, a little kooky. Shame about the people who died but "If Global Warming kills a billion people by the end of the century he will be seen differently".
Fuck that.
You know who else had a manifesto, built bombs, and murdered people? Anders Breivik, the Christian terrorist in Norway. But he killed 77 people, mostly kids on an island, so everyone's all mad. But mail a bunch of bombs to academics over the years and folks are like "oh, he had some good points".
posted by Nelson at 12:15 AM on June 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
Fuck that.
You know who else had a manifesto, built bombs, and murdered people? Anders Breivik, the Christian terrorist in Norway. But he killed 77 people, mostly kids on an island, so everyone's all mad. But mail a bunch of bombs to academics over the years and folks are like "oh, he had some good points".
posted by Nelson at 12:15 AM on June 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
He also really messed up the art scene in the bay area. The FBI decided that he was possibly a industrial artist so the totally tossed "the wizards of metal' and at SRL we were followed and stalked. It was enough for me to walk away from doing the Pyro at Burning Man (pretty much from the beginning) since I did not have a license.
Camper van Beethoven wrote a song about him.
posted by boilermonster at 1:33 AM on June 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
Camper van Beethoven wrote a song about him.
posted by boilermonster at 1:33 AM on June 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
I've not read Kaczynski's manifesto, nor given him much thought. It's all distraction from important topics.
I'll echo flabdablet here: Zero grasp of scale. In fact, I think the scale error being so larger here suggests the manifesto was merely self justification, although unsure if he made up the manifesto before or after he started killing. Also yes, you've fallen into the growth trap yourself if you want to breed out other mindsets (paragraph 204).
posted by jeffburdges at 3:30 AM on June 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'll echo flabdablet here: Zero grasp of scale. In fact, I think the scale error being so larger here suggests the manifesto was merely self justification, although unsure if he made up the manifesto before or after he started killing. Also yes, you've fallen into the growth trap yourself if you want to breed out other mindsets (paragraph 204).
posted by jeffburdges at 3:30 AM on June 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
What I remember from the manifesto was his idea that the only truly satisfying form of life was one where you were constantly struggling for your physical existence. He thought that nobody was depressed in Ye Olde Pioneer Days. It was like he had read Little House on the Prairie and based his philosophy of life on it.
My parents both grew up on pioneer farms, and we raised all of our own vegetables on four large gardens, and I thus knew that this was bullshit.
posted by clawsoon at 4:25 AM on June 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
My parents both grew up on pioneer farms, and we raised all of our own vegetables on four large gardens, and I thus knew that this was bullshit.
posted by clawsoon at 4:25 AM on June 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
Oh yeah, and the list of people who he thought were the greatest threat to his project of bringing true happiness to humanity:
He definitely would've sent a bomb to Metafilter if he could've.
posted by clawsoon at 4:54 AM on June 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
He is fond of using the common catchphrases of the left, like “racism,” “sexism,” “homophobia,” “capitalism,” “imperialism,” “neocolonialism,” “genocide,” “social change,” “social justice,” “social responsibility.” Maybe the best diagnostic trait of the leftist is his tendency to sympathize with the following movements: feminism, gay rights, ethnic rights, disability rights, animal rights, political correctness.The greatest threat to true human happiness, he said, is the person who "hates America and the West because they are strong and successful."
He definitely would've sent a bomb to Metafilter if he could've.
posted by clawsoon at 4:54 AM on June 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
His manifesto combines two very familiar things: a deep, uneasy sense of alienation (which many people find emotionally resonant, especially if they only get a couple of paragraphs deep), and a "brilliant" man arrogantly making wild theoretical leaps and drawing hideous conclusions, not only about the value of violence but about the awfulness of progressive values etc
So I mean yeah, basically Jordan Peterson
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:10 AM on June 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
So I mean yeah, basically Jordan Peterson
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:10 AM on June 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
If there's an appeal to the manifesto, it's the appeal of Dilbert: Working in a cubicle sucks. Working for a giant corporation where you have no control over what you're doing sucks. This is true!
Perhaps coincidentally, what's unappealing about the manifesto is the same thing that's unappealing about a Scott Adams rant. They hit many of the same notes on many of the same topics.
posted by clawsoon at 5:11 AM on June 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
Perhaps coincidentally, what's unappealing about the manifesto is the same thing that's unappealing about a Scott Adams rant. They hit many of the same notes on many of the same topics.
posted by clawsoon at 5:11 AM on June 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
I wonder if this means the late Grant Hart’s album about the Unabomber will be released.
posted by pxe2000 at 5:19 AM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by pxe2000 at 5:19 AM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was scheduled to fly from Los Angeles to Oxford for a high-school summer program when he made the threats to bomb a plane out of LAX in July 1995. I will always be thankful my mom had the sense of proportion to let me go. It was the first time they wouldn't let unticketed passengers through security; they made an exception for my mother becuase I was under 16. Six years later I was in New York on September 11 and when I finally was able to call her and tell her I was okay, she said she knew I would be. My mother has great faith in my resistance to terrorism, and luckily she has not been wrong yet.
posted by dame at 5:43 AM on June 11, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by dame at 5:43 AM on June 11, 2023 [23 favorites]
I have some time capsule memories about Ted "the Unabomber" Kaczynski. I first learned the news about Kaczynski's arrest when I was visiting UC Berkeley as a prospective graduate student. That's where I saw a pre-viral era Daily Californian article that published some excerpts from a mid-1960s student course evaluation guide that highlighted Kaczynski's lack of interpersonal skills as math teacher.
Eventually, I decided to go to Berkeley as a grad student in sociology. Because two of the Unabomber's mail bombs in the 1980s went off the Berkeley (one electrical engineering professor left with permanent powder burns on his face, one computer science grad student who lost 4 fingers as the insignia from his Air Force Academy class ring made a dent on a nearby wall), the UC Berkeley Sociology Department would get posters from the US Postal Service that taught you how to identify a potential mail bomb. Since Ted Kaczynski was a known reader of a lot of sociology books from the 1960s, the idea that one of his admirers might try to send a bomb to the UC Berkeley sociology department wasn't totally implausible at the time.
Anyhow, fast forward a few years. I have my Ph.D., but instead of being in academia, I'm working for a dreaded student loan company. I see a thick envelope on a table with way too many stamps on the envelope & a lot of weird calligraphy and misspellings in the address. Since I learned from that poster many years ago that an excessive number of stamps and a misspelled address might mean a mail bomb, I instinctively ducked under a table, but obviously nothing happened. Instead, it was a letter from some whack job sovereign citizen trying to put a bunch of mumbo jumbo on the envelope to nullify their student loans.
Thanks goodness mail bombs have ceased to be the terrorist tactic of choice, but then again, that may be due to how easy it is to get an AR-15.
posted by jonp72 at 7:35 AM on June 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Eventually, I decided to go to Berkeley as a grad student in sociology. Because two of the Unabomber's mail bombs in the 1980s went off the Berkeley (one electrical engineering professor left with permanent powder burns on his face, one computer science grad student who lost 4 fingers as the insignia from his Air Force Academy class ring made a dent on a nearby wall), the UC Berkeley Sociology Department would get posters from the US Postal Service that taught you how to identify a potential mail bomb. Since Ted Kaczynski was a known reader of a lot of sociology books from the 1960s, the idea that one of his admirers might try to send a bomb to the UC Berkeley sociology department wasn't totally implausible at the time.
Anyhow, fast forward a few years. I have my Ph.D., but instead of being in academia, I'm working for a dreaded student loan company. I see a thick envelope on a table with way too many stamps on the envelope & a lot of weird calligraphy and misspellings in the address. Since I learned from that poster many years ago that an excessive number of stamps and a misspelled address might mean a mail bomb, I instinctively ducked under a table, but obviously nothing happened. Instead, it was a letter from some whack job sovereign citizen trying to put a bunch of mumbo jumbo on the envelope to nullify their student loans.
Thanks goodness mail bombs have ceased to be the terrorist tactic of choice, but then again, that may be due to how easy it is to get an AR-15.
posted by jonp72 at 7:35 AM on June 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Here's the plaque in the University of Michigan math department where Ted Kaczynski was honored in 1967 for having the best math dissertation in the department.
posted by jonp72 at 7:39 AM on June 11, 2023
posted by jonp72 at 7:39 AM on June 11, 2023
I happened to watch Ted K a couple weeks ago (probably being streamed a lot on Hulu this weekend). It's a pretty compelling portrait of a terrible person. It's a bit unsatisfying in that it doesn't really examine how he got to that place in his head where he was living in the woods and sending mail bombs, but is more of a recounting of the bombings and a extended character study of a clearly not-quite-all-there Ted K.
posted by 3j0hn at 8:08 AM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by 3j0hn at 8:08 AM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I used to like showing visitors that plaque when I was a student in the department.
He tended to be described as a "Harvard-educated Berkeley mathematician", skipping over grad school. Nobody minded the snub in this case.
posted by bfields at 8:28 AM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
He tended to be described as a "Harvard-educated Berkeley mathematician", skipping over grad school. Nobody minded the snub in this case.
posted by bfields at 8:28 AM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
My undergrad linear algebra professor, spring semester 1996, apropos of nothing, mentioned knowing Ted Kackzynski one day in class. Specifically, if I remember correctly, having gone to grad school with him or something? My vague recollection is that it sounded like they were on friendly terms when they knew each other? This prof also specifically requested 8:30am classes - for some reason that sounded like he thought it was good for us, the students, in a building character sort of way or something - and then kept a window open to keep the room a bit cold because he believed we would all fall asleep due to the early hour otherwise. But he drew exquisite diagrams with very helpful and clear use of color, despite apparently being completely color blind. I suppose it’s a testament to him having some teaching skill that we found linear algebra quite clear despite our shivering discomfort and the negative impacts thereof on our note-taking. It was a very odd experience overall, though.
(He was the second most disliked prof/prof that everyone was second-most uncomfortable around at the time in that small liberal arts college math department, which perhaps tells you something about the first most disliked prof, but that’s a derail for this thread.)
posted by eviemath at 9:09 AM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
(He was the second most disliked prof/prof that everyone was second-most uncomfortable around at the time in that small liberal arts college math department, which perhaps tells you something about the first most disliked prof, but that’s a derail for this thread.)
posted by eviemath at 9:09 AM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wikipedia has been updated, noting suspicions about cause of death (hint -- not natural causes).
One cause of death it was definitely not: a 'Dear John' device from a disillusioned former acolyte. "It's not you John, it's *boom*"...
posted by zaixfeep at 9:25 AM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
One cause of death it was definitely not: a 'Dear John' device from a disillusioned former acolyte. "It's not you John, it's *boom*"...
posted by zaixfeep at 9:25 AM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
My spouse’s grad school advisor was interviewed by the FBI back in the 80s/90s (don’t remember when, exactly) because, as the editor of a scholarly journal on behaviorism, he apparently was on Ted’s list.
Weird, because bombing people to compel them to change their behavior strikes me as the most crude/cruel sort of operant conditioning possible.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:38 AM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Weird, because bombing people to compel them to change their behavior strikes me as the most crude/cruel sort of operant conditioning possible.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:38 AM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Kaczynski displayed what is known as splitting, or idealizing something and devaluing something else in a bipolar way. It leads to disillusionment and often terrorism.
posted by Brian B. at 10:15 AM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 10:15 AM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I knew Kaczynski had haunted both of the math departments where I got my education, but I never knew what kind of math he did until I saw this paper by Lara Pudwell. Don't miss the footnote on the first page.
Well, that's awkwardly close to home for me in a road-not-taken kind of way.
posted by hoyland at 11:47 AM on June 11, 2023
Well, that's awkwardly close to home for me in a road-not-taken kind of way.
posted by hoyland at 11:47 AM on June 11, 2023
He also really messed up the art scene in the bay area. The FBI decided that he was possibly a industrial artist so the totally tossed "the wizards of metal' and at SRL we were followed and stalked.
On the other hand Mark Pauline and SRL was probably on a watch list from very early on long before Kaczynski started mailing bombs.
The combination of his artistic statements and mission, messing around with high level pyrotechnics like solid rocket fuel and making giant flame-throwing murderbots, and creating semi-automatic cannons that can fire 2x4s or florescent light bulb tubes half a mile down range tends to attract a whole lot of attention.
I'm not saying it's right but the combination of his anti military/industrial complex artistic statements and having the demonstrated technical skills that he had probably lit him up like a Christmas tree for a number of three letter agencies.
I've personally witnessed that guy fire up a turbojet mounted on trailer in the middle of a busy public street just for fun. And while I loved it at the time, in hindsight that is really poor impulse control and, to put it mildly, not a really a safe thing to do and really kind of fucked up on a number of levels.
I mean just the sheer noise levels alone is dangerous to unconsenting bystanders without hearing protection long before you even think about what would happen if the engine blew up and started launching compressor discs and blades spooled up to 20,000 RPM into the hipsters crowded around it.
If there was any one political art weirdo that made the FBI sit up and say "Hey, guys? You might want to come take a look at this... This guy might actually be capable of making a giant robot murder suit..." it would have to be Mark Pauline.
posted by loquacious at 12:50 PM on June 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
On the other hand Mark Pauline and SRL was probably on a watch list from very early on long before Kaczynski started mailing bombs.
The combination of his artistic statements and mission, messing around with high level pyrotechnics like solid rocket fuel and making giant flame-throwing murderbots, and creating semi-automatic cannons that can fire 2x4s or florescent light bulb tubes half a mile down range tends to attract a whole lot of attention.
I'm not saying it's right but the combination of his anti military/industrial complex artistic statements and having the demonstrated technical skills that he had probably lit him up like a Christmas tree for a number of three letter agencies.
I've personally witnessed that guy fire up a turbojet mounted on trailer in the middle of a busy public street just for fun. And while I loved it at the time, in hindsight that is really poor impulse control and, to put it mildly, not a really a safe thing to do and really kind of fucked up on a number of levels.
I mean just the sheer noise levels alone is dangerous to unconsenting bystanders without hearing protection long before you even think about what would happen if the engine blew up and started launching compressor discs and blades spooled up to 20,000 RPM into the hipsters crowded around it.
If there was any one political art weirdo that made the FBI sit up and say "Hey, guys? You might want to come take a look at this... This guy might actually be capable of making a giant robot murder suit..." it would have to be Mark Pauline.
posted by loquacious at 12:50 PM on June 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Anyone have recommendations for good documentaries on thr Unabomber?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:03 PM on June 11, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:03 PM on June 11, 2023
Anyone have recommendations for good documentaries on thr Unabomber?
Unabomber - In His Own Words on Netflix was quite good. Lots of screentime for some victims and his brother and sister-in-law. It came out in 2018 and is in four parts. Highly recommended.
posted by NoMich at 1:33 PM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unabomber - In His Own Words on Netflix was quite good. Lots of screentime for some victims and his brother and sister-in-law. It came out in 2018 and is in four parts. Highly recommended.
posted by NoMich at 1:33 PM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't believe a truly good book or film has been made about Kaczynski yet. The best thing I have found for the genuinely curious was the series of articles written about him in the New York Times around the time of his arrest and trial. The primary source documents (his journals and letters from before his conviction, and later writings from prison) are also key if you truly want to understand his motivations.
Industrial Civilization and Its Future is a clever piece of misdirection that continues to seduce people 30 years later. That in it which is good is not original, and that which is original is not good. The commentary about technology is mostly cribbed from Jacques Ellul. But the bigger thing is that TJK was a misanthropic asshole whose crimes weren't really in the service of his purported ideology, and he confesses as much in his journals.
People often assume that Kaczynski was an "environmentalist," but he wasn't. He was upset about the disruption of wilderness that he personally enjoyed. He poisoned his neighbors' dogs (and gloated about it in his diaries) because their activity disrupted his hunting. After his conviction, Kaczynski wrote a long autobiography whose main purpose seems to be to show that his parents emotionally abused him (by the way, he addresses the psychological experiments he underwent at Harvard and said people exaggerated their severity). The anti-technology ideology is a fig leaf for a man whose real issues were not political but interpersonal.
The real mysteries to me at this point are: 1) he seriously contemplated changing genders. No one talks about this! And 2), I honestly believe he was the Zodiac killer AND did the Chicago Tylenol murders.
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 1:35 PM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Industrial Civilization and Its Future is a clever piece of misdirection that continues to seduce people 30 years later. That in it which is good is not original, and that which is original is not good. The commentary about technology is mostly cribbed from Jacques Ellul. But the bigger thing is that TJK was a misanthropic asshole whose crimes weren't really in the service of his purported ideology, and he confesses as much in his journals.
People often assume that Kaczynski was an "environmentalist," but he wasn't. He was upset about the disruption of wilderness that he personally enjoyed. He poisoned his neighbors' dogs (and gloated about it in his diaries) because their activity disrupted his hunting. After his conviction, Kaczynski wrote a long autobiography whose main purpose seems to be to show that his parents emotionally abused him (by the way, he addresses the psychological experiments he underwent at Harvard and said people exaggerated their severity). The anti-technology ideology is a fig leaf for a man whose real issues were not political but interpersonal.
The real mysteries to me at this point are: 1) he seriously contemplated changing genders. No one talks about this! And 2), I honestly believe he was the Zodiac killer AND did the Chicago Tylenol murders.
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 1:35 PM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
1) he seriously contemplated changing genders. No one talks about this!
This actually gets some discussion time in the Unabomber - In His Own Words documentary that I recommend just above
posted by NoMich at 1:37 PM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
This actually gets some discussion time in the Unabomber - In His Own Words documentary that I recommend just above
posted by NoMich at 1:37 PM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
An older friend learned after Kaczynski was arrested that he was thought to be the Unabomber. Luckily and because he but was only mailing out weed, the feds never arrested him.
posted by parmanparman at 1:54 PM on June 11, 2023
posted by parmanparman at 1:54 PM on June 11, 2023
The commentary about technology is mostly cribbed from Jacques Ellul.
I have long struggled with the ideas in Kaczynski's manifesto seeming fairly valid, being in tension with who he was and his acts. I think he has a legitimate critique of what technologies do to us after we create and disseminate them, but he really isn't the first person to make these critiques, he just more attention for it. More than Ellul ever has. I don't think he was the best messenger for the concepts he espoused.
If one wants to explore the ideologies on technology that Kaczynski was heavily influenced by, Ellul's The Technological Society is the place to start. Ellul also has the added palpability of being expressly anti-violent.
I think his book, Anarchy and Christianity, and how much effort he took to align the two are kind of unnecessary, and awkward, but The Technological Society is still worth a read, if you're interested in exploring the same themes that Kaczynski was working under, again, without the violent baggage.
posted by furnace.heart at 1:54 PM on June 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have long struggled with the ideas in Kaczynski's manifesto seeming fairly valid, being in tension with who he was and his acts. I think he has a legitimate critique of what technologies do to us after we create and disseminate them, but he really isn't the first person to make these critiques, he just more attention for it. More than Ellul ever has. I don't think he was the best messenger for the concepts he espoused.
If one wants to explore the ideologies on technology that Kaczynski was heavily influenced by, Ellul's The Technological Society is the place to start. Ellul also has the added palpability of being expressly anti-violent.
I think his book, Anarchy and Christianity, and how much effort he took to align the two are kind of unnecessary, and awkward, but The Technological Society is still worth a read, if you're interested in exploring the same themes that Kaczynski was working under, again, without the violent baggage.
posted by furnace.heart at 1:54 PM on June 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
At least Mark Pauline blew his own hand off, not other people's.
posted by Nelson at 1:56 PM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 1:56 PM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Thanks for the mentions of Mark Pauline and Survival Research Laboratories, that was something that my bf at the time and his friends were really into. It was a different time.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 2:16 PM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 2:16 PM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've personally witnessed that guy fire up a turbojet mounted on trailer in the middle of a busy public street just for fun. And while I loved it at the time, in hindsight that is really poor impulse control and, to put it mildly, not a really a safe thing to do and really kind of fucked up on a number of levels.
I feel attacked, that was me running the jet engine. Not really louder than the tuner cars and harelys.
Not really dangerous just unexpectedf ,the engine was deigned to be run in a pair inside a minesweeper. Purchased at the famed AceAuto yard for $145.
posted by boilermonster at 11:15 PM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I feel attacked, that was me running the jet engine. Not really louder than the tuner cars and harelys.
Not really dangerous just unexpectedf ,the engine was deigned to be run in a pair inside a minesweeper. Purchased at the famed AceAuto yard for $145.
posted by boilermonster at 11:15 PM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
One of the weird things about this particular terrorist is his manifesto is so well known. That's because the NYT and WashPo published it, in full, in the middle of the regular paper. In 1995 while he was still murdering people. Here's the WashPo on the decision at the time and NYT yesterday. It was a controversial decision at the time. They printed it at the urging of the FBI. IIRC it did sort of help; the killer's brother recognized the writing style and that was part of how he decided to turn him in.
I can't imagine any newspaper would decide to publish this document now. We've come to understand giving killers publicity like this is harmful. Also the web changes what it means to disseminate information widely now; other murderer's manifestos have frequently been self-published online, whether text or video.
The publication definitely had influence, as seen right here in this discussion with various posters flirting with "well he had some good points". Not to mention a quote and link to the document here in the original post.
posted by Nelson at 11:33 PM on June 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can't imagine any newspaper would decide to publish this document now. We've come to understand giving killers publicity like this is harmful. Also the web changes what it means to disseminate information widely now; other murderer's manifestos have frequently been self-published online, whether text or video.
The publication definitely had influence, as seen right here in this discussion with various posters flirting with "well he had some good points". Not to mention a quote and link to the document here in the original post.
posted by Nelson at 11:33 PM on June 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've always wanted to ask, why unAbomber and not unIbomber? Also, here's a (hopefull not apocryphal) short statement on Timothy Mcveigh by TK. "He certainly was not a mean or hostile person..."
posted by es_de_bah at 4:03 AM on June 12, 2023
posted by es_de_bah at 4:03 AM on June 12, 2023
Because he was the UNiversity Airline Bomber.
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 4:07 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 4:07 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Dip Flash: A detail in the Times' obituary that stood out:
At a super-maximum-security prison in Colorado, Mr. Kaczynski struck up friendships with inmates in neighboring cells: Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, and Timothy J. McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber. Mr. Kaczynski shared books and talked politics with them, and he got to know their birthdays, Yahoo News reported in 2016.
That was a surprise too. You’d think that he’d have contempt for fertilizer-truck bombers as unsophisticated mooks, uncouth and amateurish compared to his oh-so masterfully designed and executed bombs delivered by her majesty’s mail service.
posted by dr_dank at 4:14 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
At a super-maximum-security prison in Colorado, Mr. Kaczynski struck up friendships with inmates in neighboring cells: Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, and Timothy J. McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber. Mr. Kaczynski shared books and talked politics with them, and he got to know their birthdays, Yahoo News reported in 2016.
That was a surprise too. You’d think that he’d have contempt for fertilizer-truck bombers as unsophisticated mooks, uncouth and amateurish compared to his oh-so masterfully designed and executed bombs delivered by her majesty’s mail service.
posted by dr_dank at 4:14 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
The US Postal Service is most certainly not her majesty’s mail service.
posted by eviemath at 5:30 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 5:30 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hard to believe, but until this obit, I am somehow forgot that Ted Kaczynski still existed (I mean, obv not now), which is weird because it was such a massive news story when I was a kid.
posted by Kitteh at 6:23 AM on June 12, 2023
posted by Kitteh at 6:23 AM on June 12, 2023
masterfully designed and executed bombs delivered by her majesty’s mail service.
Wrong country there. USPS is not her majesty's. Otherwise the bombs would have potentially arrived twice daily and in less than two days.
posted by srboisvert at 6:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wrong country there. USPS is not her majesty's. Otherwise the bombs would have potentially arrived twice daily and in less than two days.
posted by srboisvert at 6:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
That was a surprise too. You’d think that he’d have contempt for fertilizer-truck bombers as unsophisticated mooks, uncouth and amateurish compared to his oh-so masterfully designed and executed bombs delivered by her majesty’s mail service.
I was surprised both that he apparently connected with them on a personal level (especially after reading in the obituary how the reporters had looked and looked but never found anyone who could describe a friendship with him), but also that the federal prison system apparently assigns rooms by category. Here is the neighborhood of terrorist bombers, over there are the drug kingpins, and the serial killers are down in hallway 4. It does seem to succeed in fostering community, at least.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was surprised both that he apparently connected with them on a personal level (especially after reading in the obituary how the reporters had looked and looked but never found anyone who could describe a friendship with him), but also that the federal prison system apparently assigns rooms by category. Here is the neighborhood of terrorist bombers, over there are the drug kingpins, and the serial killers are down in hallway 4. It does seem to succeed in fostering community, at least.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
One of the weird things about this particular terrorist is his manifesto is so well known. That's because the NYT and WashPo published it, in full, in the middle of the regular paper. In 1995 while he was still murdering people. Here's the WashPo on the decision at the time and NYT yesterday. It was a controversial decision at the time. They printed it at the urging of the FBI. IIRC it did sort of help; the killer's brother recognized the writing style and that was part of how he decided to turn him in.
In the 4-part documentary on Netflix that I mentioned above, they discuss this very topic. Why publish it? Why not publish it? Well, the FBI had nothing on him up to this point so it was finally agreed to publish the manifesto in the hope that someone, somewhere would recognize the writings and it worked. However, it wasn't his brother, David, that recognized that it was Ted, it was the brother's wife, Linda Patrik, that recognized it and she did it almost right away. She never liked Ted and told her husband over the years that Ted isn't right and needs help, but of course being family, David didn't agree with her until that manifesto was published.
But yeah, Linda deserves the credit for seeing who wrote that manifesto and thankfully she was able to convince poor David to turn in his own brother. That's another aspect of the documentary that comes through clearly, the pain that David experienced and probably still does experience for having to turn in his own brother; a brother that he loved dearly.
posted by NoMich at 8:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
In the 4-part documentary on Netflix that I mentioned above, they discuss this very topic. Why publish it? Why not publish it? Well, the FBI had nothing on him up to this point so it was finally agreed to publish the manifesto in the hope that someone, somewhere would recognize the writings and it worked. However, it wasn't his brother, David, that recognized that it was Ted, it was the brother's wife, Linda Patrik, that recognized it and she did it almost right away. She never liked Ted and told her husband over the years that Ted isn't right and needs help, but of course being family, David didn't agree with her until that manifesto was published.
But yeah, Linda deserves the credit for seeing who wrote that manifesto and thankfully she was able to convince poor David to turn in his own brother. That's another aspect of the documentary that comes through clearly, the pain that David experienced and probably still does experience for having to turn in his own brother; a brother that he loved dearly.
posted by NoMich at 8:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
Linda deserves credit for seeing who wrote that manifesto
She sure does.
In 1998, Linda Patrik gave a long interview to the communications office of Union College in Schenectady, where she was then an associate professor of philosophy, about what led up to her saying to her husband that they had to go to the FBI. (CW: Suicide.)
Linda was worried about Ted long before she thought that he had harmed anyone, simply because of the tone of his letters to his mother, Wanda
After his father's death by suicide in the fall of 1990, he had been writing to his mother more regularly.
Linda said that what had been thoughtful letters, about books and politics, turned into ugly and angry rants about how Wanda had thwarted Ted socially by having him skip two grades in school and start Harvard at the age of 16.
The interview goes into much more detail; it's well worth reading. I knew that Linda had been the first one to see the resemblance, but I hadn't known the details.
I feel as though I was lucky to stumble upon this. It was on the third or fourth page of results when I googled "Linda Patrik Ted Kasczynski" (no quotation marks). Google is so enshittified that gold like this is buried unless you make an extra effort to find it.
posted by virago at 9:58 AM on June 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
She sure does.
In 1998, Linda Patrik gave a long interview to the communications office of Union College in Schenectady, where she was then an associate professor of philosophy, about what led up to her saying to her husband that they had to go to the FBI. (CW: Suicide.)
Linda was worried about Ted long before she thought that he had harmed anyone, simply because of the tone of his letters to his mother, Wanda
After his father's death by suicide in the fall of 1990, he had been writing to his mother more regularly.
Linda said that what had been thoughtful letters, about books and politics, turned into ugly and angry rants about how Wanda had thwarted Ted socially by having him skip two grades in school and start Harvard at the age of 16.
He blamed her for his lack of sociability and for his lack of relationships with women. He blamed her for pushing him academically. He blamed her for everything.Linda was particularly unnerved by the tone of a letter that Ted wrote about two women who "he knew from a distance and would have liked to date."
The way that he described them was strange.But it wasn't until the summer of 1995 -- when Ted threatened to bomb a plane flight, prompting the FBI to release information from its profile of the Unabomber -- that Linda began to connect Ted with the person who had been carrying out these attacks for nearly 20 years.
It was a lot of things -- Ted's woodworking capability, the cities he had lived in, the fact that at this point the FBI believed the Unabomber to be a loner, and they believed him to be highly committed to an anti-technology cause.In the fall of 1995, Linda read the Unabomber's manifesto and immediately connected it with her brother-in-law:
My colleague, Professor Felmon Davis, downloaded the manifesto from the internet for me in mid-October. I had lied and told him I was going to teach a course on environmental ethics.It took several more months and the involvement of other people before Linda Patrik and David Kasczynski took the step of going to the FBI, and it was six more months from that day before Ted was arrested.
I knew as soon as I saw it that it was Ted who had written it. The anti-technology stance in the manifesto was as extreme as Ted's views and lifestyle. ... I called David right away and told him to come to my office so he could read it, too.
The interview goes into much more detail; it's well worth reading. I knew that Linda had been the first one to see the resemblance, but I hadn't known the details.
I feel as though I was lucky to stumble upon this. It was on the third or fourth page of results when I googled "Linda Patrik Ted Kasczynski" (no quotation marks). Google is so enshittified that gold like this is buried unless you make an extra effort to find it.
posted by virago at 9:58 AM on June 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
People often assume that Kaczynski was an "environmentalist," but he wasn't.
thank you.
even at 16, when new orleans wasn't destroyed yet and when i went looking for the climate future in this manifesto, it was clear that this was some insane nonsense projection from a wacko with a lot of personal issues and zero to say about the "environment"...he cops out at POINT NUMBER 5 of 232.
Maybe i had read enough punk rock nonsense by then to sniff this one out, but
to y'all that read this and it rocked your world, i'm pretty sad about that; makes me think we need critical race theory and deep ecology and ecofeminism in the high schools STAT, feels like y'all were deprived of an entire universe of political ranting about technology
As far as manifestos go, when it comes to the environment, Laudato Si is edgier and has more to say than this guy
posted by eustatic at 11:58 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
thank you.
even at 16, when new orleans wasn't destroyed yet and when i went looking for the climate future in this manifesto, it was clear that this was some insane nonsense projection from a wacko with a lot of personal issues and zero to say about the "environment"...he cops out at POINT NUMBER 5 of 232.
Maybe i had read enough punk rock nonsense by then to sniff this one out, but
to y'all that read this and it rocked your world, i'm pretty sad about that; makes me think we need critical race theory and deep ecology and ecofeminism in the high schools STAT, feels like y'all were deprived of an entire universe of political ranting about technology
As far as manifestos go, when it comes to the environment, Laudato Si is edgier and has more to say than this guy
posted by eustatic at 11:58 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
The only good (eco-)fascist is a dead one. I'm amazed that this is even debatable in 2023.
posted by prismatic7 at 12:13 AM on June 11 [4 favorites +] [!]
As an Ecology undergrad, some of the professors would introduce us to the genuine ecofascist readings to warn us that, if we pursued Ecology, the discipline had some racist baggage (Garrett Hardin "Tragedy of the Commons" being the Big Racist Lie that really won't go away) and Nazi affiliations (thankfully mostly in German, and not in English) that we, as practitioners, needed to disavow forever.
Furthermore, they led us through the papers that would make it clear that the nazi stuff was not even intellectually productive. The unabomber manifesto never even came up on that list, because there is so little from dude on the environment at all.
It hurts me that there seems to be so little eco literacy out there that this dude could be considered (eco-) anything.
posted by eustatic at 12:13 PM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
so little eco literacy out there that this dude could be considered (eco-) anything.
I would argue that this misapprehension is driven by the usual crew of psychopaths on the Right.
posted by aramaic at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2023
I would argue that this misapprehension is driven by the usual crew of psychopaths on the Right.
posted by aramaic at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2023
I grew up with someone who was wounded by the Unabomber. The Obit made me go check on him. He seems fine.
posted by acrasis at 4:13 PM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by acrasis at 4:13 PM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
@MetaFilter World Peace Discovery made a decent miniseries called Manhunt about Kaczynski who was portrayed by Paul Bettany. Amusing that Bettany played both a robot and a guy who probably hated robots.
posted by oldnumberseven at 7:24 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by oldnumberseven at 7:24 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by Dip Flash at 2:30 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]