Maybe Don't Go So High
June 21, 2023 10:38 AM Subscribe
They also would be good with fascism, they just want a different kind of dear leader(s). Neither side's desired outcome is really compatible with the political system as it exists now.
posted by kingdead at 11:13 AM on June 21, 2023
posted by kingdead at 11:13 AM on June 21, 2023
Most Americans share a common values system. Support for access to legos abortion, gun control, civil rights, progressive taxation, many social safety net programs remain quite high with 60-80% of Americans broadly in favor. The Republican Party is out of step with those values. The Republican Party has managed to avoid paying a price at the ballot box because until recently much of their radical agenda such as their insane anti-abortion positions have been blocked by the courts or divided government.
The 2022 we started to see the backlash against these policies. The problem for Republicans is that they are under the sway of a handful of super rich people who have lost touch with reality and use their wealth to push absurd and insane ideas. For example Betsy Devos ends up shaping Republican thinking about K-12 education. Richard Scaife decides Bill Clinton is the devil and sets up the Arkansas Project.
All this money from crazy people going to mostly Republican media and candidates has created the illusion of division and a disconnect in our values.
posted by interogative mood at 11:32 AM on June 21, 2023 [56 favorites]
The 2022 we started to see the backlash against these policies. The problem for Republicans is that they are under the sway of a handful of super rich people who have lost touch with reality and use their wealth to push absurd and insane ideas. For example Betsy Devos ends up shaping Republican thinking about K-12 education. Richard Scaife decides Bill Clinton is the devil and sets up the Arkansas Project.
All this money from crazy people going to mostly Republican media and candidates has created the illusion of division and a disconnect in our values.
posted by interogative mood at 11:32 AM on June 21, 2023 [56 favorites]
All this money from crazy people going to mostly Republican media and candidates has created the illusion of division and a disconnect in our values.
Hmm, maybe. But I live in the South, and I'm not going to lie: it seems that there are a whole lot of people here who wouldn't be all that upset if we reinstituted slavery. It just so happens that slavery is one of the first things that humans invented, and it can still be found in much of the world. So I am going to go with my gut and agree with the article: there are at least two distinct groups of people in the world: one who is okay with much of the worst of humanity, and one who is not. I'm on the latter and I'm not sure how much longer we should try treating the other group as if they're working in good faith toward a better tomorrow for all people.
posted by nushustu at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2023 [35 favorites]
Hmm, maybe. But I live in the South, and I'm not going to lie: it seems that there are a whole lot of people here who wouldn't be all that upset if we reinstituted slavery. It just so happens that slavery is one of the first things that humans invented, and it can still be found in much of the world. So I am going to go with my gut and agree with the article: there are at least two distinct groups of people in the world: one who is okay with much of the worst of humanity, and one who is not. I'm on the latter and I'm not sure how much longer we should try treating the other group as if they're working in good faith toward a better tomorrow for all people.
posted by nushustu at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2023 [35 favorites]
I.... Consider myself very open-minded and tolerant and generally in favor of people living the lives they want, but.... Uh. I've found it. I've found the step too far. I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I do not think I can in good conscience endorse Lego abortions
posted by Jacen at 12:04 PM on June 21, 2023 [55 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 12:04 PM on June 21, 2023 [55 favorites]
Most Americans share a common values system. Support for access to legos abortion, gun control, civil rights, progressive taxation, many social safety net programs remain quite high with 60-80% of Americans broadly in favor.
I believe strongly in this statement and I think it is important to remember, but I too find myself questioning the legitimacy of lego abortions.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:06 PM on June 21, 2023 [24 favorites]
I believe strongly in this statement and I think it is important to remember, but I too find myself questioning the legitimacy of lego abortions.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:06 PM on June 21, 2023 [24 favorites]
Most Americans share a common values system. Support for access to legos abortion, gun control, civil rights, progressive taxation, many social safety net programs remain quite high with 60-80% of Americans broadly in favor.
I've seen those surveys too, but they don't seem to match up with the reality of how people behave or vote.
The idea that progressive ideas have already won and the left need only defeat the tiny contingent of crazed holdouts leads to dangerous complacency. There is this sense of inevitable victory I see often in these kinds of conversations that again and again leads to shock when it doesn't come to fruition.
nushustu is right, there are large, and larger than some here seem to want to believe, swathes of the country that simply do not agree, to varying degrees, with the kinds of values Mefites generally hold.
Another way those surveys create a false sense of support is that those on the left assume that it translates to support of their version of a position when, say, "support for gun control" can mean a huge range of things and a general sentiment of support does not mean support for their specific policies.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:13 PM on June 21, 2023 [21 favorites]
I've seen those surveys too, but they don't seem to match up with the reality of how people behave or vote.
The idea that progressive ideas have already won and the left need only defeat the tiny contingent of crazed holdouts leads to dangerous complacency. There is this sense of inevitable victory I see often in these kinds of conversations that again and again leads to shock when it doesn't come to fruition.
nushustu is right, there are large, and larger than some here seem to want to believe, swathes of the country that simply do not agree, to varying degrees, with the kinds of values Mefites generally hold.
Another way those surveys create a false sense of support is that those on the left assume that it translates to support of their version of a position when, say, "support for gun control" can mean a huge range of things and a general sentiment of support does not mean support for their specific policies.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:13 PM on June 21, 2023 [21 favorites]
legos abortion
I... don't remember that Lego kit.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 12:21 PM on June 21, 2023 [27 favorites]
I... don't remember that Lego kit.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 12:21 PM on June 21, 2023 [27 favorites]
I used to live in a co-op apartment building in South Brooklyn, and like most collectively-governed living arrangements (probably) it was kind of a nightmare. We had a lot of arguments about things, and in particular there was this one hard-right couple who would always be on the other side of whatever we would advocate for (like putting in decent ramp access for a resident who was confined to a wheelchair.) One was a former cop, the other was a bailiff for the court system.
Anyway, one day one of them made an interesting statement - while arguing about something (I forget what) he started with "Well, since there are no morals anymore, we can't talk about right or wrong here." Of course I thought it was an odd assertion to make as though it were a fact, but the more I thought about it I understood how this was a plausible conservative perspective.
For the most part mainstream American society has completely rejected much of what conservatives would call "morals." You just can't insist that everyone be a Christian, that everyone should be blindly patriotic, that men must be "manly" etc. You can't express bias based on stereotypes, and in particular you can't express categorical disdain for gay and trans people, who have been the right's punching bag for the last few decades. Give 'em a chance and most conservatives will whine bitterly about how they aren't "allowed" to express many things they would like to.
So, if you know that to be true, it makes sense to conclude that "there are no morals" and go on some dark nihilistic bullshit. Society has decided that the things you really like are wrong, that they make you a bad person, so why not quadruple down on it. Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
The left has lots of values and rules and is constantly trying on more, the center probably still has them, but a lot of people on the right seem to only believe in the self.
posted by anhedonic at 12:22 PM on June 21, 2023 [60 favorites]
Anyway, one day one of them made an interesting statement - while arguing about something (I forget what) he started with "Well, since there are no morals anymore, we can't talk about right or wrong here." Of course I thought it was an odd assertion to make as though it were a fact, but the more I thought about it I understood how this was a plausible conservative perspective.
For the most part mainstream American society has completely rejected much of what conservatives would call "morals." You just can't insist that everyone be a Christian, that everyone should be blindly patriotic, that men must be "manly" etc. You can't express bias based on stereotypes, and in particular you can't express categorical disdain for gay and trans people, who have been the right's punching bag for the last few decades. Give 'em a chance and most conservatives will whine bitterly about how they aren't "allowed" to express many things they would like to.
So, if you know that to be true, it makes sense to conclude that "there are no morals" and go on some dark nihilistic bullshit. Society has decided that the things you really like are wrong, that they make you a bad person, so why not quadruple down on it. Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
The left has lots of values and rules and is constantly trying on more, the center probably still has them, but a lot of people on the right seem to only believe in the self.
posted by anhedonic at 12:22 PM on June 21, 2023 [60 favorites]
Is it that Democrats are virtuous and Republicans are hypocrites? Or that Republicans are strategic and Democrats are chumps?
Both of these can be true. The last seven years or so have reminded me more frequently than I would like of a moment in Spaceballs: "You will see that Evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb."
My hope is in what interrogative mood said. There are not that many MAGATs, compared to the actual weight and mass of the rest of us. The problem is -- well, there are a lot of problems, but gerrymandering combined with our primary system now favors Republicans who either believe the worst and most batshit theories of our time or are willing to pretend they do.
How we'll get past this, I don't pretend to know, only that it wouldn't fit in one comment if I did. I do think there are ways, but possibly just so I can keep getting up in the morning.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:26 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
Both of these can be true. The last seven years or so have reminded me more frequently than I would like of a moment in Spaceballs: "You will see that Evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb."
My hope is in what interrogative mood said. There are not that many MAGATs, compared to the actual weight and mass of the rest of us. The problem is -- well, there are a lot of problems, but gerrymandering combined with our primary system now favors Republicans who either believe the worst and most batshit theories of our time or are willing to pretend they do.
How we'll get past this, I don't pretend to know, only that it wouldn't fit in one comment if I did. I do think there are ways, but possibly just so I can keep getting up in the morning.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:26 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
legos abortion
I... don't remember that Lego kit.
Of course you don't, production was terminated before anything went on sale.
posted by COD at 12:28 PM on June 21, 2023 [54 favorites]
I... don't remember that Lego kit.
Of course you don't, production was terminated before anything went on sale.
posted by COD at 12:28 PM on June 21, 2023 [54 favorites]
star gentle uterus, I agree with you about dangerous complacency, but I disagree with how you get there. Gerrymandering of House congressional districts, plus the way that Senators don't represent equal populations, and how in presidential elections, winning a state means winning all it's electoral college votes means that Trump "Won" in 2015 with 46.1% of the vote, and Republicans gained Presidential, Senate and House control while only representing a minority of the population. It's a large minority but Democrats would win every popular vote and full congressional control in every election if everything was proportional.
Republicans are a party that can't win by playing fair and doesn't want to adapt. It possibly can't without losing large swaths of its voters. But it can win. I suspect that sort of situation leads to an undermining of classic morality in a lot of them.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 12:31 PM on June 21, 2023 [17 favorites]
Republicans are a party that can't win by playing fair and doesn't want to adapt. It possibly can't without losing large swaths of its voters. But it can win. I suspect that sort of situation leads to an undermining of classic morality in a lot of them.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 12:31 PM on June 21, 2023 [17 favorites]
And to reply to what pyramid termite said: I do think fascism is the correct term. I also think that, unfortunately, it's been defanged by constant use. People who are not in touch think of it as an insult from an angry teenager or college student who doesn't understand the real world, as it might have been in the 90s. But honestly, today's young people understand the real world better than many older ones.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:32 PM on June 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 12:32 PM on June 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
The left has lots of values and rules and is constantly trying on more, the center probably still has them, but a lot of people on the right seem to only believe in the self.
I am reminded of a conversation I had long ago with a former friend who was going down the rabbit hole of Extreme Libertarianism. I said, "the thing is, your folks demonize my folks as if we don't all want the same thing ultimately, for our families to live a good life." And he was like "LOL no, YOU want our families to live a good life. I want MY family to live a good life. Your family can die in a ditch for all I care."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:39 PM on June 21, 2023 [69 favorites]
I am reminded of a conversation I had long ago with a former friend who was going down the rabbit hole of Extreme Libertarianism. I said, "the thing is, your folks demonize my folks as if we don't all want the same thing ultimately, for our families to live a good life." And he was like "LOL no, YOU want our families to live a good life. I want MY family to live a good life. Your family can die in a ditch for all I care."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:39 PM on June 21, 2023 [69 favorites]
I've seen those surveys too, but they don't seem to match up with the reality of how people behave or vote.
Politics is its own issue but as far as behavior is concerned it's worth remembering that stories you hear are by definition unusual. There is no headline when someone pulls into the wrong rural driveway and the owner comes out to help direct them to right place. There is no headline for a PTA meeting that ends with everyone having a made a compromise they can live with. And there is no headline where a Gay Pride event is just something that happens with no controversy.
The United States is purple and people generally get along fine. It's only a notable event when they don't.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:42 PM on June 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
Politics is its own issue but as far as behavior is concerned it's worth remembering that stories you hear are by definition unusual. There is no headline when someone pulls into the wrong rural driveway and the owner comes out to help direct them to right place. There is no headline for a PTA meeting that ends with everyone having a made a compromise they can live with. And there is no headline where a Gay Pride event is just something that happens with no controversy.
The United States is purple and people generally get along fine. It's only a notable event when they don't.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:42 PM on June 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's a large minority but Democrats would win every popular vote and full congressional control in every election if everything was proportional.
But we don't have such a system. Another problem is the Dems keep looking to national population-level positions while Republicans play the game as it is and focus on winning under the circumstances that do exist. The total national sentiment doesn't matter, the sentiment of your state or district does. It means nothing to lose and whine about how broad support for you would be otherwise until you can change the system. The Republicans get this, the Dems for whatever reason don't and again again run into that wall.
Republicans are a party that can't win by playing fair and doesn't want to adapt.
On the contrary, I would say the Dems need to stop crying about fairness and play ball like the Republicans do. They got in a position to gerrymander by capturing many states, and they did that by mobilizing boots on the ground in many places that the Dems basically ceded to them.
You're getting cause and effect backwards: the Republicans seized on the real cultural and values differences that exist to mobilize their base in many places to gain power there, allowing them to enact their will more effectively on the national stage. The situation we see now is a result of that, not the cause.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:43 PM on June 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
But we don't have such a system. Another problem is the Dems keep looking to national population-level positions while Republicans play the game as it is and focus on winning under the circumstances that do exist. The total national sentiment doesn't matter, the sentiment of your state or district does. It means nothing to lose and whine about how broad support for you would be otherwise until you can change the system. The Republicans get this, the Dems for whatever reason don't and again again run into that wall.
Republicans are a party that can't win by playing fair and doesn't want to adapt.
On the contrary, I would say the Dems need to stop crying about fairness and play ball like the Republicans do. They got in a position to gerrymander by capturing many states, and they did that by mobilizing boots on the ground in many places that the Dems basically ceded to them.
You're getting cause and effect backwards: the Republicans seized on the real cultural and values differences that exist to mobilize their base in many places to gain power there, allowing them to enact their will more effectively on the national stage. The situation we see now is a result of that, not the cause.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:43 PM on June 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
Tell Me No Lies, I think there's some room in people's beliefs and behavior between "there are no differences in values" and "people are ready to murder each other".
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:45 PM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:45 PM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Well, since there are no morals anymore, we can't talk about right or wrong here."
This is one of the things that I hate about most religions - but especially Christianity.
They seem to believe that only followers of their religion have an valid understanding of basic morality - what is right and what is wrong. If you are not a believer, then you are subject to horrible animal urges and do not have any fundamental morality in-place.
If you do not believe in Heaven - but more importantly - Hell, and are afraid of consequences in the afterlife, only then could you possibly be a moral person.
Of course - what it really means is... "their morals" (as adjusted for their location and cultural/societal norms), because they can bend them for anyone in their "in-group", but also use them like a stick to keep their community "in-line" - and also use them to create "out-groups" as necessary.
My opinion is that you can easily teach children what is "right" and "wrong", without having an invisible sky daddy around to watch and judge them all the time, ready to send them to Hell for their faults... In my opinion - in absense of religion, morality is more "pure", as people just do what is "right", without having to be "terrified" of consequences.
posted by rozcakj at 12:45 PM on June 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is one of the things that I hate about most religions - but especially Christianity.
They seem to believe that only followers of their religion have an valid understanding of basic morality - what is right and what is wrong. If you are not a believer, then you are subject to horrible animal urges and do not have any fundamental morality in-place.
If you do not believe in Heaven - but more importantly - Hell, and are afraid of consequences in the afterlife, only then could you possibly be a moral person.
Of course - what it really means is... "their morals" (as adjusted for their location and cultural/societal norms), because they can bend them for anyone in their "in-group", but also use them like a stick to keep their community "in-line" - and also use them to create "out-groups" as necessary.
My opinion is that you can easily teach children what is "right" and "wrong", without having an invisible sky daddy around to watch and judge them all the time, ready to send them to Hell for their faults... In my opinion - in absense of religion, morality is more "pure", as people just do what is "right", without having to be "terrified" of consequences.
posted by rozcakj at 12:45 PM on June 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
On the contrary, I would say the Dems need to stop crying about fairness and play ball like the Republicans do. They got in a position to gerrymander by capturing many states, and they did that by mobilizing boots on the ground in many places that the Dems basically ceded to them.
Why? Play ball for what? That's a lot of effort to help people who have no money, no power, nothing to give but a ballot. They can get along very nicely as is simply by not frothing at the mouth 24/7.
posted by kingdead at 12:50 PM on June 21, 2023
Why? Play ball for what? That's a lot of effort to help people who have no money, no power, nothing to give but a ballot. They can get along very nicely as is simply by not frothing at the mouth 24/7.
posted by kingdead at 12:50 PM on June 21, 2023
You can't express bias based on stereotypes, and in particular you can't express categorical disdain for gay and trans people, who have been the right's punching bag for the last few decades.
Problem is, people are feeling more and more safe and comfortable to be openly bigoted these days. And, y'know, pass all kinds of horrifying laws.
"You will see that Evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb."
I think of this quote CONSTANTLY. "Going high" has done nothing at all. We should not be doing it. Playing dirty is the only thing that works now.
The issue to me is, there's Team Weirdo and then there's the bigots, who will stop at nothing until everyone on Team Weirdo is dead. Team Weirdo lets people live and let live. Bigots absolutely cannot stand that. If that's "different values," so be it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:51 PM on June 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Problem is, people are feeling more and more safe and comfortable to be openly bigoted these days. And, y'know, pass all kinds of horrifying laws.
"You will see that Evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb."
I think of this quote CONSTANTLY. "Going high" has done nothing at all. We should not be doing it. Playing dirty is the only thing that works now.
The issue to me is, there's Team Weirdo and then there's the bigots, who will stop at nothing until everyone on Team Weirdo is dead. Team Weirdo lets people live and let live. Bigots absolutely cannot stand that. If that's "different values," so be it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:51 PM on June 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
you can easily teach children what is "right" and "wrong", without having an invisible sky daddy around to watch and judge them all the time, ready to send them to Hell for their faults
Sure you can.
A different thing that you can also easily teach children is that right and wrong are whatever the local authority figure decrees that they are, and then inculcate in them a belief in an inescapable, omnipresent, omniscient, imaginary parental snitch who can also punish them even worse than the worst punishment their parent has ever dealt out. Because He loves them. Because He is love.
And you can make those actual parental punishments so damaging that they'd result in criminal charges if carried out anywhere except behind closed family doors.
And you can normalize that way of raising children within a subcommunity and keep at it for generation on generation on generation.
Lots of kids get raised that way, and they grow into adults who literally cannot conceive of any reason to do the right thing other than that somebody is forcing them to. Genuine personal responsibility resulting in fully autonomous self control is somewhere between incomprehesible and terrifying for people taught to live like that.
posted by flabdablet at 1:03 PM on June 21, 2023 [18 favorites]
Sure you can.
A different thing that you can also easily teach children is that right and wrong are whatever the local authority figure decrees that they are, and then inculcate in them a belief in an inescapable, omnipresent, omniscient, imaginary parental snitch who can also punish them even worse than the worst punishment their parent has ever dealt out. Because He loves them. Because He is love.
And you can make those actual parental punishments so damaging that they'd result in criminal charges if carried out anywhere except behind closed family doors.
And you can normalize that way of raising children within a subcommunity and keep at it for generation on generation on generation.
Lots of kids get raised that way, and they grow into adults who literally cannot conceive of any reason to do the right thing other than that somebody is forcing them to. Genuine personal responsibility resulting in fully autonomous self control is somewhere between incomprehesible and terrifying for people taught to live like that.
posted by flabdablet at 1:03 PM on June 21, 2023 [18 favorites]
Trump had promised, in a speech after his arraignment, to “appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the United States of America, Joe Biden, and the entire Biden crime family,”
He is projecting so hard he should be installed in an IMAX theater.
posted by Splunge at 1:04 PM on June 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
He is projecting so hard he should be installed in an IMAX theater.
posted by Splunge at 1:04 PM on June 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
Very ableist to call out a dyslexic person’s spelling errors.
posted by interogative mood at 1:14 PM on June 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 1:14 PM on June 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
On the contrary, I would say the Dems need to stop crying about fairness and play ball like the Republicans do.
I'm a firm believer that if you have to deal with a bully, you spend more effort than you think it's worth to get them to stop, and understand them, and make you understand them non-violently. You should go beyond what you consider reasonable, to ensure you are not being a monster.
But if you do that, and the bully continues to bully, then you should punch them and continue to punch them until they can't get up. Give people a chance to not be assholes, but if they don't take that chance, show them in no uncertain terms that it will not be tolerated, using their own language. People on the right at best don't care about most of us, and at worst wish many of us dead or enslaved. We've spent centuries trying to improve things, and meanwhile they've done everything they could to keep those improvements from happening, because they're selfish, hateful people. Fuck that noise, and fuck them.
It's weird to me that 70 years ago much of the world had a bunch of people in it that were generally Not Extreme People, didn't think that violence was the solution to most problems, and yet were able to say "Yes. In this case, killing Nazis appears to be a solution with which I can live," and now we have real, actual Nazis marching around in the US, and we're not going all Blues Brothers on them all the time.
posted by nushustu at 1:43 PM on June 21, 2023 [23 favorites]
I'm a firm believer that if you have to deal with a bully, you spend more effort than you think it's worth to get them to stop, and understand them, and make you understand them non-violently. You should go beyond what you consider reasonable, to ensure you are not being a monster.
But if you do that, and the bully continues to bully, then you should punch them and continue to punch them until they can't get up. Give people a chance to not be assholes, but if they don't take that chance, show them in no uncertain terms that it will not be tolerated, using their own language. People on the right at best don't care about most of us, and at worst wish many of us dead or enslaved. We've spent centuries trying to improve things, and meanwhile they've done everything they could to keep those improvements from happening, because they're selfish, hateful people. Fuck that noise, and fuck them.
It's weird to me that 70 years ago much of the world had a bunch of people in it that were generally Not Extreme People, didn't think that violence was the solution to most problems, and yet were able to say "Yes. In this case, killing Nazis appears to be a solution with which I can live," and now we have real, actual Nazis marching around in the US, and we're not going all Blues Brothers on them all the time.
posted by nushustu at 1:43 PM on June 21, 2023 [23 favorites]
"Unfriending" America: The Christian right is coming for the enemies of God — like you and me. Rising far-right Christian movement linked to GOP calls for "kingdom revolution" led by an "army of believers" by Frederick Clarkson (Salon.com)
The new norm... "Their politics appear to be animated less by "conservative" political philosophy or even strong religious values than by a vengeful vision of purging those who refuse to be converted and are deemed to be demonically possessed enemies."
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:58 PM on June 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
The new norm... "Their politics appear to be animated less by "conservative" political philosophy or even strong religious values than by a vengeful vision of purging those who refuse to be converted and are deemed to be demonically possessed enemies."
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:58 PM on June 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's weird to me that 70 years ago much of the world had a bunch of people in it that were generally Not Extreme People, didn't think that violence was the solution to most problems
Honestly I don't know that this is the case? I'd love to see what this is based on, anyway.
Not Extreme People, perhaps. But certainly, even if individuals themselves did not consider that violence was the optimal solution to most problems, they lived in or not far removed from systems that absolutely did.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:00 PM on June 21, 2023
Honestly I don't know that this is the case? I'd love to see what this is based on, anyway.
Not Extreme People, perhaps. But certainly, even if individuals themselves did not consider that violence was the optimal solution to most problems, they lived in or not far removed from systems that absolutely did.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:00 PM on June 21, 2023
(Arguably, part of the reason the Nazis made as much headway as they did was that it actually took many nations and their citizens quite a long time to decide that they in fact should do actual state violence against the Nazis. Both because they were exhausted of violence -- remember, many adults at the time had living memory of literally an entire other world war--and because a lot of folks had no particular problem with the Nazis AT ALL. The US in particular had the lions share of both of those types, of course.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:03 PM on June 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:03 PM on June 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is related to the so-called Paradox of Intolerance, in which society must tolerate a variety of views and opinions but cannot tolerate intolerance itself. If certain people choose to reject the social contract, we cannot simply apply the contract to them as if they did accept it. It is something of a problem that the side that values consensus and questions authority must act quickly and decisively or lose power forever. I don’t want to say we’re definitely fucked, but the signs don’t look great.
posted by rikschell at 2:05 PM on June 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 2:05 PM on June 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Barbara Kingsolver says 'rural people are so angry they want to blow up the system' and I think she might be in a position to know that.
In my opinion, city people need to figure out how to give rural people a better deal than Republicans are offering them, or the US is heading for disaster — even greater disaster, that is.
posted by jamjam at 2:15 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
In my opinion, city people need to figure out how to give rural people a better deal than Republicans are offering them, or the US is heading for disaster — even greater disaster, that is.
posted by jamjam at 2:15 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
Oh God, please no. I wonder if Barbara is aware of the large number of non-white rural people in the U.S. that do not vote for fascism at every opportunity.
posted by credulous at 2:24 PM on June 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by credulous at 2:24 PM on June 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
Not to mention that Dems typically give rural people a better deal. It doesn’t matter.
posted by zenzenobia at 2:30 PM on June 21, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by zenzenobia at 2:30 PM on June 21, 2023 [19 favorites]
So, if you know that to be true, it makes sense to conclude that "there are no morals" and go on some dark nihilistic bullshit. Society has decided that the things you really like are wrong, that they make you a bad person, so why not quadruple down on it. Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
See, that was true of the gay/queer community for a long time. Outcasts, whose self-evident values were derided as monstrous, immoral. Somehow, the resulting nihilism turned to dancing and casual chemsex, not trying to go out your way to harm those that disagree with you.
It's a very partial explanation at best.
posted by Dysk at 2:31 PM on June 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
See, that was true of the gay/queer community for a long time. Outcasts, whose self-evident values were derided as monstrous, immoral. Somehow, the resulting nihilism turned to dancing and casual chemsex, not trying to go out your way to harm those that disagree with you.
It's a very partial explanation at best.
posted by Dysk at 2:31 PM on June 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
Schismogenesis. People defining themself as not being like The Other, and their culture being based on if they do it, we don't. I don't think you can get the Dems to go low, because if you could, you could also get them to vote for the Republicans.
Keep in mind that the group that is the biggest rival to the Government are the corporations. But they work their political will by lobbying, buying politicians and so on. Compare their joint economy with the US Federal economy and you'll see that it's not really a competition between the Dems and the Republicans, it's between the Corporations and Geographic power blocs, and the Corporations are winning. Most of the power that Governments used to have, has already been passed on to the corporations. HR Block writes the tax legislation.
Also, I think this is probably the Lego set they were referring to.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:39 PM on June 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
Keep in mind that the group that is the biggest rival to the Government are the corporations. But they work their political will by lobbying, buying politicians and so on. Compare their joint economy with the US Federal economy and you'll see that it's not really a competition between the Dems and the Republicans, it's between the Corporations and Geographic power blocs, and the Corporations are winning. Most of the power that Governments used to have, has already been passed on to the corporations. HR Block writes the tax legislation.
Also, I think this is probably the Lego set they were referring to.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:39 PM on June 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've been here how many years and it's taken me this long to finally hear about legos abortion.
posted by kensington314 at 3:07 PM on June 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 3:07 PM on June 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Very ableist to call out a dyslexic person’s spelling errors.
interogative mood, I apologize. Truthfully I had just assumed this was a particularly delightful case of the ol' autocorrect inserting itself from your phone. (Didn't stop to wonder whether autocorrect asserts itself in the MeFi box on a phone or not, actually not sure the answer to that.) Again, apologies.
posted by kensington314 at 3:11 PM on June 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
interogative mood, I apologize. Truthfully I had just assumed this was a particularly delightful case of the ol' autocorrect inserting itself from your phone. (Didn't stop to wonder whether autocorrect asserts itself in the MeFi box on a phone or not, actually not sure the answer to that.) Again, apologies.
posted by kensington314 at 3:11 PM on June 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Definitely I assumed "legos" was autocorrect for "legal".
But, I actually think there's a good point to be made in the spelling/autocorrect accident there as well; aren't legos universally adored? (Parents who step on them at 3am temporarily excluded). Maybe I'm wrong, they're more expensive than when I was a kid, and word says they aren't that much cheaper used, so perhaps there are chunks of society that can't afford them.
It may seem a bit silly to think about legos, but in a time of fractured media consumption, what other universal 1st world experiences are there? Learning to share your legos is an early moral lesson. So, "there are no morals" is just factually incorrect. It's instead that some of things that speaker held as morals turned out to instead be really terrible bigoted ideas and actively damaging to society at large, and as interogative mood recalls, most of modern American society has realized that.
posted by nat at 3:32 PM on June 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
But, I actually think there's a good point to be made in the spelling/autocorrect accident there as well; aren't legos universally adored? (Parents who step on them at 3am temporarily excluded). Maybe I'm wrong, they're more expensive than when I was a kid, and word says they aren't that much cheaper used, so perhaps there are chunks of society that can't afford them.
It may seem a bit silly to think about legos, but in a time of fractured media consumption, what other universal 1st world experiences are there? Learning to share your legos is an early moral lesson. So, "there are no morals" is just factually incorrect. It's instead that some of things that speaker held as morals turned out to instead be really terrible bigoted ideas and actively damaging to society at large, and as interogative mood recalls, most of modern American society has realized that.
posted by nat at 3:32 PM on June 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I also assumed legos meant legal, but the running joke was fun and gave me some giggles. Hopefully not meant with any offense from anyone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:24 PM on June 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:24 PM on June 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
(Aside: autocorrect has been a real boon for us causal misspellers, you can get away will all kinds of ship these days and people blame it on the computer!)
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:30 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:30 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
In 1860 there were over 400,000 residents of South Carolina who were of African descent. There were just over 290,000 residents of European descent. I am pretty sure their values were drastically different, even if the majority was prevented by force from expressing their wishes. This was not a unique situation in the United States, and has a good bit of bearing on the political divide we have today.
posted by TedW at 5:51 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by TedW at 5:51 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
Hmm, maybe. But I live in the South, and I'm not going to lie: it seems that there are a whole lot of people here who wouldn't be all that upset if we reinstituted slavery.
I also live in the South, but, truthfully, that is not what I see.
First, there are a lot of Black people here, and they are not going to vote for that while they still have the ability. Huge numbers of them are poor, but a few are business owners. A lot of them get a bad rap for the age-old reasons, that humans will decide a group is awful based on only the most visible characteristic, but it is obvious that the low-end of the employment market is largely filled by people of color. They basically run our lives here, and they do a good job of it.
There are still many white people, and some of them will still use the N-word, but in private, and they seem to all be older. One is my dad, who is nearly 80. It's true that I have seen a couple of instances of "drive-by" racism: a slur someone wrote on a chalkboard, and a swastika on a men's room stall. But, and I must emphasize that this is merely anecdotal, in my town at least, I've seen far less of that than you would expect. The ironic racism that was in vogue on the internet never really took root here.
Fox News is shown on the public TVs of many businesses, but it seems like the actual people have a good opinion of themselves, and that view is incompatible with re-instituting historical slavery. Now, the de facto slavery of the modern job market, that they are fine with, and mutterings by business owners who close their doors early some days because "people just don't want to work" are common, and it's easy to see subtext there, but they do always say people, and not black people. Once in a while, the person saying it is black themselves (that happened just a couple of days ago, in fact, at a Dairy Queen).
As I said, this is only anecdotal, what I see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears. Brunswick, GA is a bit of an odd place, a bit more progressive than its surrounding towns. It was a place where, back in 2019 before the election, someone put up a billboard on the interstate with a big picture of a bald eagle and, in the biggest, shiniest, most flea market T-shirt-iest letters, wrote "DEPLORABLES -- you know what to do!", but the actual people went for Biden, and our district was also one of those that helped vote in Senator Warnock. And once in a while I hear word of other places that aren't so bad? There was a collective I heard of over on Mastodon in a rural community that was actually trans friendly, and didn't seem thought of too badly by their community from their telling. I haven't heard anything from them lately, though.
I am sure there are worse places too. But I think they aren't all bad. The underlying opinion is, slowly, shifting, it seems to me. But then, of course, I have no more power to see into people's hearts than anyone else.
posted by JHarris at 6:22 PM on June 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
I also live in the South, but, truthfully, that is not what I see.
First, there are a lot of Black people here, and they are not going to vote for that while they still have the ability. Huge numbers of them are poor, but a few are business owners. A lot of them get a bad rap for the age-old reasons, that humans will decide a group is awful based on only the most visible characteristic, but it is obvious that the low-end of the employment market is largely filled by people of color. They basically run our lives here, and they do a good job of it.
There are still many white people, and some of them will still use the N-word, but in private, and they seem to all be older. One is my dad, who is nearly 80. It's true that I have seen a couple of instances of "drive-by" racism: a slur someone wrote on a chalkboard, and a swastika on a men's room stall. But, and I must emphasize that this is merely anecdotal, in my town at least, I've seen far less of that than you would expect. The ironic racism that was in vogue on the internet never really took root here.
Fox News is shown on the public TVs of many businesses, but it seems like the actual people have a good opinion of themselves, and that view is incompatible with re-instituting historical slavery. Now, the de facto slavery of the modern job market, that they are fine with, and mutterings by business owners who close their doors early some days because "people just don't want to work" are common, and it's easy to see subtext there, but they do always say people, and not black people. Once in a while, the person saying it is black themselves (that happened just a couple of days ago, in fact, at a Dairy Queen).
As I said, this is only anecdotal, what I see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears. Brunswick, GA is a bit of an odd place, a bit more progressive than its surrounding towns. It was a place where, back in 2019 before the election, someone put up a billboard on the interstate with a big picture of a bald eagle and, in the biggest, shiniest, most flea market T-shirt-iest letters, wrote "DEPLORABLES -- you know what to do!", but the actual people went for Biden, and our district was also one of those that helped vote in Senator Warnock. And once in a while I hear word of other places that aren't so bad? There was a collective I heard of over on Mastodon in a rural community that was actually trans friendly, and didn't seem thought of too badly by their community from their telling. I haven't heard anything from them lately, though.
I am sure there are worse places too. But I think they aren't all bad. The underlying opinion is, slowly, shifting, it seems to me. But then, of course, I have no more power to see into people's hearts than anyone else.
posted by JHarris at 6:22 PM on June 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
In my opinion, city people need to figure out how to give rural people a better deal than Republicans are offering them, or the US is heading for disaster — even greater disaster, that is.
Dems typically give rural people a better deal. It doesn’t matter.
So I'm highlighting this because there are a lot of assumptions that go into that response, and I think they speak directly to blind spots around value differences that cause major problems due to bundling.
It is not as simple as thinking that one party is good and offers good things for everyone and one party is bad and offers bad things for everyone. If it were that simple the only people who followed the second party would be idiots. And it's tempting to assume half the country are idiots. But it's intellectually lazy and leads to bad outcomes as people calcify further and further in bad beliefs.
There are some genuinely existential struggles that are hidden behind those values statements and that have nothing to do with racism or bigotry, and those struggles need to be addressed. I feel kind of glad to come from multiple sides on some of these things and so can see that it's not about morality, exactly - but people can have different values for good reason.
For example: how do you want to live? Do you like to live with a lot of land, in a small town where you know a lot of the people and have some distance from your neighbors? Or do you like to live in densely populated areas where you can walk or bike or use quick public transit to get to your work, food, and entertainment?
The former method of living requires personally owned vehicles. Whether gas, or electric, there are costs to sprawl, and costs to servicing and supplying sprawl. If you believe that the former way of living is a good way of living that brings benefits, then you may well feel that those costs are worth it.
The second method requires heavy investments in public transport, and also some limitations, whether legal or financial, on individual car use - disincentivizing parking in more densely populated or used areas, for example. If you believe this is a good way of living - as I also do! - then you may feel that those costs are worth it.
But the problem is that it's difficult for people who follow one value to see the value in the other. I almost never see people who live in cities and heavily promote public transport addressing, for example, the rising costs of personally owned vehicles and rising gas prices - largely I think because they feel that these are self-created costs, created by a way of living which is foolish and counter productive, and they don't want to support them. They may feel they are supporting by supporting the stretching of public transportation to those areas, but they won't support lowering the cost of car ownership and driving cars. Similarly, individuals who live rurally and heavily promote lowering the cost of car registration or gas prices are rarely seen advocating for cheap public transportation. They may support lower car registration and gas prices for people in cities as well, but they think that city people are engaging in a way of living which is counterproductive and don't want to support it.
We would be far better off if both groups had a nuanced philosophy of some things being good for people in cities and some for people in rural areas and maybe we could support both.
posted by corb at 7:38 PM on June 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
Dems typically give rural people a better deal. It doesn’t matter.
So I'm highlighting this because there are a lot of assumptions that go into that response, and I think they speak directly to blind spots around value differences that cause major problems due to bundling.
It is not as simple as thinking that one party is good and offers good things for everyone and one party is bad and offers bad things for everyone. If it were that simple the only people who followed the second party would be idiots. And it's tempting to assume half the country are idiots. But it's intellectually lazy and leads to bad outcomes as people calcify further and further in bad beliefs.
There are some genuinely existential struggles that are hidden behind those values statements and that have nothing to do with racism or bigotry, and those struggles need to be addressed. I feel kind of glad to come from multiple sides on some of these things and so can see that it's not about morality, exactly - but people can have different values for good reason.
For example: how do you want to live? Do you like to live with a lot of land, in a small town where you know a lot of the people and have some distance from your neighbors? Or do you like to live in densely populated areas where you can walk or bike or use quick public transit to get to your work, food, and entertainment?
The former method of living requires personally owned vehicles. Whether gas, or electric, there are costs to sprawl, and costs to servicing and supplying sprawl. If you believe that the former way of living is a good way of living that brings benefits, then you may well feel that those costs are worth it.
The second method requires heavy investments in public transport, and also some limitations, whether legal or financial, on individual car use - disincentivizing parking in more densely populated or used areas, for example. If you believe this is a good way of living - as I also do! - then you may feel that those costs are worth it.
But the problem is that it's difficult for people who follow one value to see the value in the other. I almost never see people who live in cities and heavily promote public transport addressing, for example, the rising costs of personally owned vehicles and rising gas prices - largely I think because they feel that these are self-created costs, created by a way of living which is foolish and counter productive, and they don't want to support them. They may feel they are supporting by supporting the stretching of public transportation to those areas, but they won't support lowering the cost of car ownership and driving cars. Similarly, individuals who live rurally and heavily promote lowering the cost of car registration or gas prices are rarely seen advocating for cheap public transportation. They may support lower car registration and gas prices for people in cities as well, but they think that city people are engaging in a way of living which is counterproductive and don't want to support it.
We would be far better off if both groups had a nuanced philosophy of some things being good for people in cities and some for people in rural areas and maybe we could support both.
posted by corb at 7:38 PM on June 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
JHarris, you are speaking of Brunswick, Georgia, the downtown of which is 9 minutes from where Ahmaud Arbery, a black man, was murdered for jogging through a neighborhood where his killers decided he did not belong? Where the police department — which had had live 911 calls contemporneous with the pursuit and murder and which knew who committed it — DID NOT MAKE AN ARREST until two months later, only after it drew nationwide critical attention and the GBI took over? That Brunswick?
First, there are a lot of Black people here, and they are not going to vote for that while they still have the ability.
You mean like how women are more than half the population of the United States but despite how the majority of women vote, we have lost our right to bodily autonomy? "...while they still have the ability" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting.
And people having a good opinion of themselves as a protection against evil behavior seems laughable to me, because Christians defended slavery while having a very good opinion of themselves for quite a bit of our history. Their good opinions have brought agony to BIPOC communities and individuals, Jews, women, LGBTQ+, and so many more.
I live in the South, too. A native of New York State, but I've lived down here 32 years, more than half my life. In a city that I would not call cosmopolitan, but when compared to Brunswick certainly is. Our synagogues have to have police guards during all services, year-round, because of the threats of violence. People may or may not use racial epithets in private but they certainly use them in public, and not merely the elderly or the poorly educated. People, especially Black people, are treated badly daily, both personally and through institutional racism.
Do I think that slavery will be reintroduced? No. Do I think "that there are a whole lot of people here who wouldn't be all that upset if we reinstituted slavery" where "here" is any place where slavery was part of the history (or even if it existed nearby)? Yes, with all my fearful soul.
I appreciate you wanting to believe the underlying opinion is improving; I want that, too. For years I believed that it was only the rise in social media that made it seem like violence against marginalized communities was increasing. But I don't believe that anymore. The bad people don't just have a more and larger platforms; there are more of them willing to act on the beliefs they may formerly have kept whispered or in their own homes. But I don't think we need to look into anyone's "hearts" while we have news reports...and the self-reported accounts from actual people enduring actual ongoing harm in our communities.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 7:42 PM on June 21, 2023 [16 favorites]
First, there are a lot of Black people here, and they are not going to vote for that while they still have the ability.
You mean like how women are more than half the population of the United States but despite how the majority of women vote, we have lost our right to bodily autonomy? "...while they still have the ability" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting.
And people having a good opinion of themselves as a protection against evil behavior seems laughable to me, because Christians defended slavery while having a very good opinion of themselves for quite a bit of our history. Their good opinions have brought agony to BIPOC communities and individuals, Jews, women, LGBTQ+, and so many more.
I live in the South, too. A native of New York State, but I've lived down here 32 years, more than half my life. In a city that I would not call cosmopolitan, but when compared to Brunswick certainly is. Our synagogues have to have police guards during all services, year-round, because of the threats of violence. People may or may not use racial epithets in private but they certainly use them in public, and not merely the elderly or the poorly educated. People, especially Black people, are treated badly daily, both personally and through institutional racism.
Do I think that slavery will be reintroduced? No. Do I think "that there are a whole lot of people here who wouldn't be all that upset if we reinstituted slavery" where "here" is any place where slavery was part of the history (or even if it existed nearby)? Yes, with all my fearful soul.
I appreciate you wanting to believe the underlying opinion is improving; I want that, too. For years I believed that it was only the rise in social media that made it seem like violence against marginalized communities was increasing. But I don't believe that anymore. The bad people don't just have a more and larger platforms; there are more of them willing to act on the beliefs they may formerly have kept whispered or in their own homes. But I don't think we need to look into anyone's "hearts" while we have news reports...and the self-reported accounts from actual people enduring actual ongoing harm in our communities.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 7:42 PM on June 21, 2023 [16 favorites]
> We would be far better off if both groups had a nuanced philosophy of some things being good for people in cities and some for people in rural areas and maybe we could support both.
This analysis falls apart completely when you factor in the actual cost of car ownership that the individuals living in those rural areas never have to pay because of massive subsidies (1, 2). It's fine to empathize with people who live in an unsustainable way, but that empathy doesn't do anything to actually make the way they're living sustainable.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:52 PM on June 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
This analysis falls apart completely when you factor in the actual cost of car ownership that the individuals living in those rural areas never have to pay because of massive subsidies (1, 2). It's fine to empathize with people who live in an unsustainable way, but that empathy doesn't do anything to actually make the way they're living sustainable.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:52 PM on June 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ah, you are right about Arbery. That I had temporarily forgotten could easily be seen as one of my own blind spots.
posted by JHarris at 11:07 PM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by JHarris at 11:07 PM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
We would be far better off if both groups had a nuanced philosophy of some things being good for people in cities and some for people in rural areas and maybe we could support both.
corb, I agree and, from a Scottish perspective, I'd argue that there are ways that this can be done in a targeted manner (e.g. charging congestion fees and creating low carbon emissions zones in cities in a way that discourages car ownership there, creating P&R at the edge of cities with good transport links to the city centre, etc.). I didn't own a car when I lived in the city and I hate that I have to one one now. However, I live in the countryside away from any rail links (thanks to the Beeching cuts). When the family does a day trip to Edinburgh we invariably park at the first P&R across the bridge and enjoy all the gloriously efficient mass transit it offers.
tonycpsu, do you like your fresh fruits and vegetables? Because if those are going to get to the city centres then there needs to be investment in some form of infrastructure to efficiently transport things from rural locations to urban ones. That may feel like you're subsidising rural car ownership, but you're also subsidising your ability to get nice tasting food. And rural roads also mean urban folks can get out to enjoy a day in the country. 50% of the traffic on the roads around me is either tractors, some sort of work vehicle (forestry trucks, etc.), or cyclists from towns using our quieter roads to get a break from fighting urban traffic.
I get really nervous when urban dwellers talk about rural lifestyles as if they're inherently problematic just by virtue of being rural. It's sets up a dynamic where 95% of a country becomes out-of-bounds for human habitation.
posted by nangua at 5:37 AM on June 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
corb, I agree and, from a Scottish perspective, I'd argue that there are ways that this can be done in a targeted manner (e.g. charging congestion fees and creating low carbon emissions zones in cities in a way that discourages car ownership there, creating P&R at the edge of cities with good transport links to the city centre, etc.). I didn't own a car when I lived in the city and I hate that I have to one one now. However, I live in the countryside away from any rail links (thanks to the Beeching cuts). When the family does a day trip to Edinburgh we invariably park at the first P&R across the bridge and enjoy all the gloriously efficient mass transit it offers.
tonycpsu, do you like your fresh fruits and vegetables? Because if those are going to get to the city centres then there needs to be investment in some form of infrastructure to efficiently transport things from rural locations to urban ones. That may feel like you're subsidising rural car ownership, but you're also subsidising your ability to get nice tasting food. And rural roads also mean urban folks can get out to enjoy a day in the country. 50% of the traffic on the roads around me is either tractors, some sort of work vehicle (forestry trucks, etc.), or cyclists from towns using our quieter roads to get a break from fighting urban traffic.
I get really nervous when urban dwellers talk about rural lifestyles as if they're inherently problematic just by virtue of being rural. It's sets up a dynamic where 95% of a country becomes out-of-bounds for human habitation.
posted by nangua at 5:37 AM on June 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
> tonycpsu, do you like your fresh fruits and vegetables? Because if those are going to get to the city centres then there needs to be investment in some form of infrastructure to efficiently transport things from rural locations to urban ones. That may feel like you're subsidising rural car ownership, but you're also subsidising your ability to get nice tasting food. And rural roads also mean urban folks can get out to enjoy a day in the country. 50% of the traffic on the roads around me is either tractors, some sort of work vehicle (forestry trucks, etc.), or cyclists from towns using our quieter roads to get a break from fighting urban traffic.
1. We had trains long before we had automobiles.
2. Freight is only around 10% of vehicle miles driven on highways in the US.
3. Nobody, and certainly not me, is saying we should be getting rid of cars.
4. Most vehicle trips in the US are far shorter than the distance required to bring produce into the city, or bring city-dwellers out for a walk in the woods.
The problem here is not with people choosing to live one place or another, but with treating subsidized ways of living as if those subsidies don't exist. Becoming more car-dependent and less rail and public transit-dependent was a choice America made. It's not a simple binary of "embrace current levels of car subsidies and ownership or say goodbye to the tomatoes at your local market".
posted by tonycpsu at 7:44 AM on June 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
1. We had trains long before we had automobiles.
2. Freight is only around 10% of vehicle miles driven on highways in the US.
3. Nobody, and certainly not me, is saying we should be getting rid of cars.
4. Most vehicle trips in the US are far shorter than the distance required to bring produce into the city, or bring city-dwellers out for a walk in the woods.
The problem here is not with people choosing to live one place or another, but with treating subsidized ways of living as if those subsidies don't exist. Becoming more car-dependent and less rail and public transit-dependent was a choice America made. It's not a simple binary of "embrace current levels of car subsidies and ownership or say goodbye to the tomatoes at your local market".
posted by tonycpsu at 7:44 AM on June 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
> I get really nervous when urban dwellers talk about rural lifestyles as if they're inherently problematic just by virtue of being rural.
It's true. This is too simplistic. The lifestyles aren't problematic just because they're rural. They're problematic because we conflate living on your own estate with being a farmer. We need food, so we have to make the supply chain of farms plus support systems work. But if you're not a commercial farm? No subsidies. This is true of suburbs as well.
> It's sets up a dynamic where 95% of a country becomes out-of-bounds for human habitation.
As a biologist, I'm not against this idea. It wouldn't be 95%, though, because of the need for agriculture, forestry, and extractive industries. Personally I'd add a system of rail and lodges and trailheads so it became possible to straightforwardly get out into the wilderness. Those would also provide for a rural, nonagricultural lifestyle if you wanted to live out there.
posted by madhadron at 7:55 AM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's true. This is too simplistic. The lifestyles aren't problematic just because they're rural. They're problematic because we conflate living on your own estate with being a farmer. We need food, so we have to make the supply chain of farms plus support systems work. But if you're not a commercial farm? No subsidies. This is true of suburbs as well.
> It's sets up a dynamic where 95% of a country becomes out-of-bounds for human habitation.
As a biologist, I'm not against this idea. It wouldn't be 95%, though, because of the need for agriculture, forestry, and extractive industries. Personally I'd add a system of rail and lodges and trailheads so it became possible to straightforwardly get out into the wilderness. Those would also provide for a rural, nonagricultural lifestyle if you wanted to live out there.
posted by madhadron at 7:55 AM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
> Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
The irony here is that this is a well known phrase used by assassins that seek to protect the common people from corrupt leaders via fatal means, and would absolutely have taken out MAGA leaderships as soon as they cropped up.
posted by numaner at 8:14 AM on June 22, 2023
The irony here is that this is a well known phrase used by assassins that seek to protect the common people from corrupt leaders via fatal means, and would absolutely have taken out MAGA leaderships as soon as they cropped up.
posted by numaner at 8:14 AM on June 22, 2023
The irony here is that this is a well known phrase used by assassins that seek to protect the common people from corrupt leaders via fatal means, and would absolutely have taken out MAGA leaderships as soon as they cropped up.
Except that it seems like what causes people on the right to say "Nothing is true, everything is permitted," is people having sex and this leads them to think that if fucking is okay, then so is killing. And that's just inherently wrong and I won't argue with them about it.
posted by nushustu at 8:31 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Except that it seems like what causes people on the right to say "Nothing is true, everything is permitted," is people having sex and this leads them to think that if fucking is okay, then so is killing. And that's just inherently wrong and I won't argue with them about it.
posted by nushustu at 8:31 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
This analysis falls apart completely when you factor in the actual cost of car ownership that the individuals living in those rural areas never have to pay because of massive subsidies
The thing is if you take out car subsidies (mostly highways and road resurfacing) in small towns and some school subsidy (depends on the state), we barely subsidize rural living at all. That's why so many small towns look like hell. They don't have the local expertise (or funds to pay consultants) to fill out the forms to qualify for local federal subsidy.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:18 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
The thing is if you take out car subsidies (mostly highways and road resurfacing) in small towns and some school subsidy (depends on the state), we barely subsidize rural living at all. That's why so many small towns look like hell. They don't have the local expertise (or funds to pay consultants) to fill out the forms to qualify for local federal subsidy.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:18 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Car subsidy is far more advantageous to suburbanites than rural residents. It allows them to drive 30 miles across a major metro in about 30 minutes. That is just not really necessary in a rural area. 5 minutes and you are out of town.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:28 AM on June 22, 2023
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:28 AM on June 22, 2023
I’ve heard this nonsense about rural folks not getting subsidies for a long time. I grew up raising cattle so I’m very familiar with the smell of bullshit like this. Those massive irrigation projects didn’t find themselves, neither did rural electrification, rural broadband, paved roads, air ports, hospitals and other services. The BLM is providing ranchers with below market rate pasture land. The department of agriculture loan programs and on top of that all the farm subsidies. The high levels of rural poverty with reliance on food assistance and welfare.
posted by interogative mood at 1:19 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 1:19 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
> The thing is if you take out car subsidies (mostly highways and road resurfacing) in small towns and some school subsidy (depends on the state), we barely subsidize rural living at all.
interrogative mood rebutted this point quite nicely already, but even if you believe that some, most, or all of those subsidies as worth keeping, your logic is akin to saying that if you take out the unpleasantness at the end, Mary Todd Lincoln enjoyed watching Our American Cousin. The subsidies that allow people to live in areas they wouldn't otherwise be able to live are the ones that create demand for more subsidies later.
Everyone is entitled to live wherever they want if they can afford it on their own dime, and to some extent (e.g. postal deliveries, electrification funds, rural broadband subsidies, etc.) we've decided as a country that we'll spend more to ensure everyone is on a level playing field, and that's fine. But there does come a point at which it's okay to look at the numbers and wonder if nudging the dials in the opposite direction might lead to better outcomes for everyone involved, or, god forbid, might cause a handful of people who've benefited more in the past to lose a bit of what they've gotten so that others can benefit. Governments make these choices all the time in ways that disadvantage all sorts of groups, but because of how the US system overvalues land over people, the scales are almost always tipped in favor of areas that are less densely populated.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:42 PM on June 22, 2023
interrogative mood rebutted this point quite nicely already, but even if you believe that some, most, or all of those subsidies as worth keeping, your logic is akin to saying that if you take out the unpleasantness at the end, Mary Todd Lincoln enjoyed watching Our American Cousin. The subsidies that allow people to live in areas they wouldn't otherwise be able to live are the ones that create demand for more subsidies later.
Everyone is entitled to live wherever they want if they can afford it on their own dime, and to some extent (e.g. postal deliveries, electrification funds, rural broadband subsidies, etc.) we've decided as a country that we'll spend more to ensure everyone is on a level playing field, and that's fine. But there does come a point at which it's okay to look at the numbers and wonder if nudging the dials in the opposite direction might lead to better outcomes for everyone involved, or, god forbid, might cause a handful of people who've benefited more in the past to lose a bit of what they've gotten so that others can benefit. Governments make these choices all the time in ways that disadvantage all sorts of groups, but because of how the US system overvalues land over people, the scales are almost always tipped in favor of areas that are less densely populated.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:42 PM on June 22, 2023
Not that the conversation that's spun off on the rural/urban line has been entirely unrelated to the original FPP topic re: finding a balance between conflicting values, but I really appreciated the actual content of the Barbara Kingsolver article linked by jamjam, above, beyond just the pull-quote (the immediate context of that quote, which seems relevant here: "“I understand why rural people are so mad they want to blow up the system,” she says. “That contempt of urban culture for half the country. I feel like I’m an ambassador between these worlds, trying to explain that if you want to have a conversation you don’t start it with the words, ‘You idiot.’”"). Conversations about the rural US sometimes seem to immediately jump to an assumption that rural areas are universally conservative, or universally poor, or universally centered around farmland, and there's a bit of that above.
I know my experiences living in rural areas were not typical and I can't speak to it in the same way as Kingsolver, because where I have lived were statistically left-leaning places and I did not have an extended generational connection to those regions, but the one thing I'd say is actually universal within rural areas is that the people who live there are all literally human people with individual complicated personal and historic reasons for living in the place they are living. Saying most of their communities (including some of the other people you're talking to here) shouldn't exist, even if it's meant in a rhetorical sense, feels threatening rather than like the beginning of a conversation.
I do think part of this rhetoric is encouraged by the tone of the FPP article, which conflates far-right voters with the politicians they are voting for as sharing the same "new norms"; I might push back on that and say the new norms are being established and perpetuated by the monied members of those groups, but that part of what has made them dangerous is the far-right PR machine's talent at keeping the average less-wealthy conservative frog in the boiling water of shifting norms until individual voters are past the point where their doubling-down reflex kicks in. That far-right money goes a lot further in a rural area where things like the media and utilities can easily be turned into monopolies and local elections are cheap to influence; that doesn't make the individual people, one on one, that much more committed to personally "sinking low," or for that matter less capable of human empathy. I know anecdata are not data, but I'm far more scared of being the victim of a hate-crime for being visibly queer in the suburbs of my liberal city than I am in my tiny hometown.
(sorry that got long — in the spirit of all the encouragement in MeTa lately about not being too scared to comment, I guess?)
posted by C. K. Dexter Haven at 3:10 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
I know my experiences living in rural areas were not typical and I can't speak to it in the same way as Kingsolver, because where I have lived were statistically left-leaning places and I did not have an extended generational connection to those regions, but the one thing I'd say is actually universal within rural areas is that the people who live there are all literally human people with individual complicated personal and historic reasons for living in the place they are living. Saying most of their communities (including some of the other people you're talking to here) shouldn't exist, even if it's meant in a rhetorical sense, feels threatening rather than like the beginning of a conversation.
I do think part of this rhetoric is encouraged by the tone of the FPP article, which conflates far-right voters with the politicians they are voting for as sharing the same "new norms"; I might push back on that and say the new norms are being established and perpetuated by the monied members of those groups, but that part of what has made them dangerous is the far-right PR machine's talent at keeping the average less-wealthy conservative frog in the boiling water of shifting norms until individual voters are past the point where their doubling-down reflex kicks in. That far-right money goes a lot further in a rural area where things like the media and utilities can easily be turned into monopolies and local elections are cheap to influence; that doesn't make the individual people, one on one, that much more committed to personally "sinking low," or for that matter less capable of human empathy. I know anecdata are not data, but I'm far more scared of being the victim of a hate-crime for being visibly queer in the suburbs of my liberal city than I am in my tiny hometown.
(sorry that got long — in the spirit of all the encouragement in MeTa lately about not being too scared to comment, I guess?)
posted by C. K. Dexter Haven at 3:10 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
interrogative mood rebutted this point quite nicely already, but even if you believe that some, most, or all of those subsidies as worth keeping, your logic is akin to saying that if you take out the unpleasantness at the end
I wasn't really making a point about past subsidies- heck yeah in the past we used to subsidize rural land to a far greater extent than we do now. All the things mentioned happened in the past (except rural broadband, which unless you are on a major trunkline sucks big time).
And a larger percent of people in the past lived in rural areas than do now, and somehow they made it on less highway subsidization, so I think my point stands. I was even born in a rural hospital that no longer exists.
Rural electrification now is insanely expensive. Sure some land is subsidized, but those are for big corporate farms and it's debatable how much filters downward for community use. Same with BLM land - maybe it's 'below market value', maybe not. Who else is around to use it for cattle grazing - it's an extremely limited market.
My family also ranches, if you have a small ranch you get some minor subsidies, and you can get some $$ for keeping land fallow. But that's at the individual level, not at the city or municipality level, and it doesn't make ranching big P profitable. Some people in rural areas are very wealthy, but most are not.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:25 PM on June 22, 2023
I wasn't really making a point about past subsidies- heck yeah in the past we used to subsidize rural land to a far greater extent than we do now. All the things mentioned happened in the past (except rural broadband, which unless you are on a major trunkline sucks big time).
And a larger percent of people in the past lived in rural areas than do now, and somehow they made it on less highway subsidization, so I think my point stands. I was even born in a rural hospital that no longer exists.
Rural electrification now is insanely expensive. Sure some land is subsidized, but those are for big corporate farms and it's debatable how much filters downward for community use. Same with BLM land - maybe it's 'below market value', maybe not. Who else is around to use it for cattle grazing - it's an extremely limited market.
My family also ranches, if you have a small ranch you get some minor subsidies, and you can get some $$ for keeping land fallow. But that's at the individual level, not at the city or municipality level, and it doesn't make ranching big P profitable. Some people in rural areas are very wealthy, but most are not.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:25 PM on June 22, 2023
Also LOL at comparing a loan program with actual subsidy. Loans represent taking risk, which not enough people on Metafilter realize unless they are personally under the gun for the repayments. Does everyone with $100k in student loans get to bask in their 'subsidization' and the government's generosity?
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:32 PM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:32 PM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also finally, subsidizing those things currently (electrification, water, broadband, hospitals) would be great ideas to do everywhere in the US. There is a digital divide in cities, there are tons of places in the US where water quality is godawful, and the number of doctors on the poor side of town vs the rich side of major cities is a real issue. At least with food deserts, they get a McDonalds. There ain't no medical version of McDonalds.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:53 PM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:53 PM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
They may not be voting for racism and bigotry and hate and banning human rights or queer safety or stopping school shootings but they most assuredly are not voting against those lovely things conservatives get up to
posted by Jacen at 6:44 PM on June 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 6:44 PM on June 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, if you know that to be true, it makes sense to conclude that "there are no morals" and go on some dark nihilistic bullshit.
You are also forgetting that their priests and pastors and mormon elders are going through generational sexual abuse scanals which have been destroying people s faith in church authorities from within.
Not to mention Floods. Christians are very ill prepared for all the flooding since it says "no floods" right in their contracts
posted by eustatic at 8:56 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
You are also forgetting that their priests and pastors and mormon elders are going through generational sexual abuse scanals which have been destroying people s faith in church authorities from within.
Not to mention Floods. Christians are very ill prepared for all the flooding since it says "no floods" right in their contracts
posted by eustatic at 8:56 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Talk to the black farmers who were denied access those same loan programs. Then tell me how the terms of those loans are not a subsidy. Also unlike student loans, farm loans are subject to various modifications and can even be discharged in bankruptcy.
posted by interogative mood at 10:50 PM on June 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:50 PM on June 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
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it's called fascism - you can even say that it's fascism
why didn't you?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:44 AM on June 21, 2023 [55 favorites]