Precarious Manhood Beliefs Are Associated with Erectile Dysfunction
June 29, 2023 1:33 AM Subscribe
Precarious Manhood Beliefs Are Positively Associated with Erectile Dysfunction in Cisgender Men.
"The notions that manhood is hard to attain, easy to lose, and needs to be proven via public action constitute precarious manhood beliefs (PMB).
PMB is a new concept and it remains unclear whether and how PMB relate to erectile dysfunction (ED) in cisgender men. The ability to achieve an erection remains considered as a cornerstone of masculinity and sexual performance can be conceived as a proof of one’s masculinity. In this context, ED can be received as sexual failure and a threat to a man’s masculinity and sense of adequacy. For these reasons, the hypothesis that PMB are associated with ED warranted empirical testing.
In an anonymous online survey focusing on men’s mental health conducted in German-speaking countries of Europe, 507 cisgender men (Mage = 44.2, SDage = 15.2) completed measures on PMB, sexual function, self-stigma, social desirability, and conformity to traditional masculinity ideology (TMI). Multilinear regression analysis with stepwise introduction of relevant covariates evaluated potential associations between PMB and ED. Of a 507 cisgendered male sample, 63.1% reported an increased risk for ED based on previously established cutoff points.
Elevated levels of PMB endorsement among the men predicted reduced sexual and erectile function in all models, even when accounting for relevant control variables such as age, education, self-stigma, social desirability, or conformity to TMI. Group comparisons revealed that the men suffering from ED showed higher levels of PMB endorsement but not self-stigma nor TMI relative to men without ED. PMB are significantly associated with ED.
While determining causality will require further study, our results may support the hypothesis that higher levels of PMB endorsement may lead to increased tension to perform sexually, resulting in increased psychological pressure and a higher risk to develop ED."
"The notions that manhood is hard to attain, easy to lose, and needs to be proven via public action constitute precarious manhood beliefs (PMB).
PMB is a new concept and it remains unclear whether and how PMB relate to erectile dysfunction (ED) in cisgender men. The ability to achieve an erection remains considered as a cornerstone of masculinity and sexual performance can be conceived as a proof of one’s masculinity. In this context, ED can be received as sexual failure and a threat to a man’s masculinity and sense of adequacy. For these reasons, the hypothesis that PMB are associated with ED warranted empirical testing.
In an anonymous online survey focusing on men’s mental health conducted in German-speaking countries of Europe, 507 cisgender men (Mage = 44.2, SDage = 15.2) completed measures on PMB, sexual function, self-stigma, social desirability, and conformity to traditional masculinity ideology (TMI). Multilinear regression analysis with stepwise introduction of relevant covariates evaluated potential associations between PMB and ED. Of a 507 cisgendered male sample, 63.1% reported an increased risk for ED based on previously established cutoff points.
Elevated levels of PMB endorsement among the men predicted reduced sexual and erectile function in all models, even when accounting for relevant control variables such as age, education, self-stigma, social desirability, or conformity to TMI. Group comparisons revealed that the men suffering from ED showed higher levels of PMB endorsement but not self-stigma nor TMI relative to men without ED. PMB are significantly associated with ED.
While determining causality will require further study, our results may support the hypothesis that higher levels of PMB endorsement may lead to increased tension to perform sexually, resulting in increased psychological pressure and a higher risk to develop ED."
Sounds like another name for "Precarious manhood beliefs" is "toxic masculinity", no?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:26 AM on June 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:26 AM on June 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
I like that TMI can stand for “Traditional Masculine Ideology” and “Too Much Information,” because, well, they keep talking about it, don’t they?
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:49 AM on June 29, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:49 AM on June 29, 2023 [18 favorites]
Sounds like another name for "Precarious manhood beliefs" is "toxic masculinity", no?
Interesting question. PMB feels like a sub-set of toxic masc. I also equate toxic masculinity with anger (physical, verbal, and emotional manifestations) as an appropriate response to interpersonal conflict; believing in a hierarchal social structure where the people on the top have “earned” the right to control the people on the bottom, a belief that emotional intelligence is a ‘feminine’ trait and is to be eschewed and outsourced. Oh, and that men are automatically at the top of this imagine hierarchy, and so your male-peer relationships are the most important relationships to invest time in and derive your sense of worth from.
Saying this because I know gentle cis-het men who I wouldn’t think of as falling in the “toxic masculinity” tribe, but have instead encoded their self-worth in the “when I die, I just want people to say that I was useful” Mr. Fix-It camp. There are overlaps with all of this, and I suppose the way toxic masculinity represents itself can be seen on a scale, too.
Ok, I am going to get some coffee now and think on this some more.
posted by Silvery Fish at 3:51 AM on June 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
Interesting question. PMB feels like a sub-set of toxic masc. I also equate toxic masculinity with anger (physical, verbal, and emotional manifestations) as an appropriate response to interpersonal conflict; believing in a hierarchal social structure where the people on the top have “earned” the right to control the people on the bottom, a belief that emotional intelligence is a ‘feminine’ trait and is to be eschewed and outsourced. Oh, and that men are automatically at the top of this imagine hierarchy, and so your male-peer relationships are the most important relationships to invest time in and derive your sense of worth from.
Saying this because I know gentle cis-het men who I wouldn’t think of as falling in the “toxic masculinity” tribe, but have instead encoded their self-worth in the “when I die, I just want people to say that I was useful” Mr. Fix-It camp. There are overlaps with all of this, and I suppose the way toxic masculinity represents itself can be seen on a scale, too.
Ok, I am going to get some coffee now and think on this some more.
posted by Silvery Fish at 3:51 AM on June 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
In a study of 157 men living with ED, Wang (2008) found a weak association between ED severity and TMI. Wang also found an association between ED severity and the TMI subdimension “anti-femininity.”posted by glonous keming at 4:44 AM on June 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Sounds like another name for "Precarious manhood beliefs" is "toxic masculinity", no?
What I'm getting from the study is that the difference is the precarity part. Following the references, it looks like these are the four questions they asked to measure it:
Other people often question whether a man is a "real man"
Some boys do not become men no matter how old they get
It is fairly easy for a man to lose his status as a man
Manhood is not assured – it can be lost
It looks like they gave participants a whole bunch of questions in addition to these, including questions about stigma around mental illness, feelings of social desirability, and conformity to masculine norms. Then they ran a bunch of regression tests to see what showed up. Toxic beliefs by themselves didn't correlate with erectile dysfunction; precarious toxic beliefs did.
They say they adjusted for multiple hypothesis testing, which presumably reduces the chance that they pulled out a correlation by random chance, but the replication crisis has made me wish that all studies like this would be followed up by a much larger study which only tests the correlation found in the initial study to see if it actually holds.
Also, can anybody who knows explain what the significance of "the back translated German version of the PMB has previously been found to possess unsatisfactory reliability" is?
posted by clawsoon at 4:55 AM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
What I'm getting from the study is that the difference is the precarity part. Following the references, it looks like these are the four questions they asked to measure it:
Other people often question whether a man is a "real man"
Some boys do not become men no matter how old they get
It is fairly easy for a man to lose his status as a man
Manhood is not assured – it can be lost
It looks like they gave participants a whole bunch of questions in addition to these, including questions about stigma around mental illness, feelings of social desirability, and conformity to masculine norms. Then they ran a bunch of regression tests to see what showed up. Toxic beliefs by themselves didn't correlate with erectile dysfunction; precarious toxic beliefs did.
They say they adjusted for multiple hypothesis testing, which presumably reduces the chance that they pulled out a correlation by random chance, but the replication crisis has made me wish that all studies like this would be followed up by a much larger study which only tests the correlation found in the initial study to see if it actually holds.
Also, can anybody who knows explain what the significance of "the back translated German version of the PMB has previously been found to possess unsatisfactory reliability" is?
posted by clawsoon at 4:55 AM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Sounds like another name for "Precarious manhood beliefs" is "toxic masculinity", no?
I would think of those as overlapping venn diagrams -- related conditions, often co-joined, but not the same.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:39 AM on June 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
I would think of those as overlapping venn diagrams -- related conditions, often co-joined, but not the same.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:39 AM on June 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Manhood is not assured – it can be lost
Has anyone watched Mrs. Davis? Watch Mrs. Davis. There is so much going on in that brilliant piece of television, so much of Where We Are At This Moment. The write-ups have done a piss poor job of talking about all it takes on.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:57 AM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Has anyone watched Mrs. Davis? Watch Mrs. Davis. There is so much going on in that brilliant piece of television, so much of Where We Are At This Moment. The write-ups have done a piss poor job of talking about all it takes on.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:57 AM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can see how PMB has possibly buried within it a fear of ED, and anxiety about ED is not exactly prophylactic against ED. [rimshot], but if I believed that my manhood was precarious, I wouldn't be telling researchers I experienced ED. I might whisper it to my horse.
posted by Artful Codger at 6:29 AM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 6:29 AM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments removed for starting off the thread with jokes about erections.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:38 AM on June 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:38 AM on June 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
This study kinda sucks?
They're main DV is to collapse a number of ordinal variables into a binary one based on whether the sum is over or under... 53?
"For each item, participants indicated how often it occurred or how much it applied to them during the past four weeks on a five-point Likert scale (e.g., from 1 = almost never/never to 5 = almost always/always), including a null-option for most items such as 0 = no sexual activity. A score below 53 is used as cutoff for to indicate erectile dysfunction (Rosen et al., 1997)"
Its not entirely clear if they keep the continuous scale for the models.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:43 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
They're main DV is to collapse a number of ordinal variables into a binary one based on whether the sum is over or under... 53?
"For each item, participants indicated how often it occurred or how much it applied to them during the past four weeks on a five-point Likert scale (e.g., from 1 = almost never/never to 5 = almost always/always), including a null-option for most items such as 0 = no sexual activity. A score below 53 is used as cutoff for to indicate erectile dysfunction (Rosen et al., 1997)"
Its not entirely clear if they keep the continuous scale for the models.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:43 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Echoing clawsoon's comment that "the replication crisis has made me wish that all studies like this would be followed up by a much larger study," the replication crisis has made me think that studies like this are probably total bullshit.
But even if it holds, it's bizarre that they jump to hypothesizing that "higher levels of PMB endorsement may lead to ... a higher risk to develop ED." My instinct is that the causality is far more likely to work the other way. As they note, "ED can be received as sexual failure and a threat to a man’s masculinity." I can definitely imagine men who have developed ED changing the way they respond to statements like "It is fairly easy for a man to lose his status as a man."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:29 AM on June 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
But even if it holds, it's bizarre that they jump to hypothesizing that "higher levels of PMB endorsement may lead to ... a higher risk to develop ED." My instinct is that the causality is far more likely to work the other way. As they note, "ED can be received as sexual failure and a threat to a man’s masculinity." I can definitely imagine men who have developed ED changing the way they respond to statements like "It is fairly easy for a man to lose his status as a man."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:29 AM on June 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
But even if it holds, it's bizarre that they jump to hypothesizing that "higher levels of PMB endorsement may lead to ... a higher risk to develop ED." My instinct is that the causality is far more likely to work the other way. As they note, "ED can be received as sexual failure and a threat to a man’s masculinity." I can definitely imagine men who have developed ED changing the way they respond to statements like "It is fairly easy for a man to lose his status as a man."
I agree that intuitively, the causality would go the other way. Sort of like how job loss is associated with increased domestic violence -- the causality goes from job loss to terrible outcomes, not the other way around. But things that are intuitively correct don't always pan out to be true, so presumably this could in fact go the other way.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:56 AM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I agree that intuitively, the causality would go the other way. Sort of like how job loss is associated with increased domestic violence -- the causality goes from job loss to terrible outcomes, not the other way around. But things that are intuitively correct don't always pan out to be true, so presumably this could in fact go the other way.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:56 AM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm picturing a man who has ED combined with toxic beliefs responding to it in one of two ways: "I can't get it up, so there must be something wrong with me," or, "I can't get it up, so there must be something wrong with her." I suspect that the first response would contribute more to an anxiety spiral that would lead to more ED, but I'm just speculating.
posted by clawsoon at 8:01 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 8:01 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Toxic beliefs could cause someone to seek coupling despite lack of attraction.
posted by grokus at 8:03 AM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by grokus at 8:03 AM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
As they note, "ED can be received as sexual failure and a threat to a man’s masculinity." I can definitely imagine men who have developed ED changing the way they respond to statements like "It is fairly easy for a man to lose his status as a man."
It sure looks like most men adopt Precarious Manhood Beliefs long before they get to the age where they are at much risk for ED. Even so, I guess men who sorta think that way might be more likely to develop much stronger PMBs if they experience ED, so that could still explain the correlation.
posted by straight at 8:36 AM on June 29, 2023
It sure looks like most men adopt Precarious Manhood Beliefs long before they get to the age where they are at much risk for ED. Even so, I guess men who sorta think that way might be more likely to develop much stronger PMBs if they experience ED, so that could still explain the correlation.
posted by straight at 8:36 AM on June 29, 2023
It sure looks like most men adopt Precarious Manhood Beliefs long before they get to the age where they are at much risk for ED. Even so, I guess men who sorta think that way might be more likely to develop much stronger PMBs if they experience ED, so that could still explain the correlation.
You don't even need to explain the correlation because the study is cargo-cult bullshit, like so much of this type of research. Everything is poorly measured, everything is underpowered, weird things are conditioned on (posttreatment and whatnot). If you run this again even in the same context and different researchers you'll get a completely different answer.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:42 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
You don't even need to explain the correlation because the study is cargo-cult bullshit, like so much of this type of research. Everything is poorly measured, everything is underpowered, weird things are conditioned on (posttreatment and whatnot). If you run this again even in the same context and different researchers you'll get a completely different answer.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:42 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd say PMB is a value system that (can) leads to the set of behaviour we term Toxic Masculinity.
I'm hedging because I don't know that there's a one to one relationship. There are conceivably other reason for TM behaviour: cultural ones for example that may not be exactly the same as US PMB. I'd even go so far as to say PMBs are cultural artifacts and likely come in many varieties.
posted by bonehead at 8:47 AM on June 29, 2023
I'm hedging because I don't know that there's a one to one relationship. There are conceivably other reason for TM behaviour: cultural ones for example that may not be exactly the same as US PMB. I'd even go so far as to say PMBs are cultural artifacts and likely come in many varieties.
posted by bonehead at 8:47 AM on June 29, 2023
> If you run this again even in the same context and different researchers you'll get a completely different answer.
perhaps the cited Wang study also bears a harder look
posted by glonous keming at 9:14 AM on June 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
perhaps the cited Wang study also bears a harder look
posted by glonous keming at 9:14 AM on June 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
^ you win
posted by elkevelvet at 9:16 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 9:16 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Shouldn't this be alleviated by the widespread availability of Viagra and like products? It's super easy to get them, although I'm not sure about the cost. Or is it more the Hemingwayesque fear of losing this sort of "virility?"
I'm asking because I really don't have the expertise to parse the specific language and testing parameters in papers like this. I get that I am not understanding the nuance and field language. (Reverse engineers disease???)
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:46 AM on June 29, 2023
I'm asking because I really don't have the expertise to parse the specific language and testing parameters in papers like this. I get that I am not understanding the nuance and field language. (Reverse engineers disease???)
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:46 AM on June 29, 2023
If anyone has a good reference on the “mr fix it” end of toxic masculinity I would love to see it. Googling gets me a mix of handyman ads along with the classic anger/hierarchy based toxic traits.
My dad often ignored family while focused on work and household projects. My mom always said that spending all day raking leaves(and the neighbors leaves) was how he should he loved us…. I do fight the drive to do projects instead of taking my kids to the park….
On the viagra question, pills help with the physiological part of the problem, but it seems like PMB psychological part can still interfere
posted by CostcoCultist at 10:38 AM on June 29, 2023
My dad often ignored family while focused on work and household projects. My mom always said that spending all day raking leaves(and the neighbors leaves) was how he should he loved us…. I do fight the drive to do projects instead of taking my kids to the park….
On the viagra question, pills help with the physiological part of the problem, but it seems like PMB psychological part can still interfere
posted by CostcoCultist at 10:38 AM on June 29, 2023
My dad often ignored family while focused on work and household projects. My mom always said that spending all day raking leaves(and the neighbors leaves) was how he should he loved us…. I do fight the drive to do projects instead of taking my kids to the park….
Avoidant attachment, maybe, or something along those lines?
posted by clawsoon at 11:11 AM on June 29, 2023
Avoidant attachment, maybe, or something along those lines?
posted by clawsoon at 11:11 AM on June 29, 2023
If anyone has a good reference on the “mr fix it” end of toxic masculinity I would love to see it.
I don't think anyone is saying Norm is toxic. Bob Vila, maybe, I don't have the inside scoop on how he lost his show. But Norm seems like good people.
But if you just need zeitgeist examples, the Wreck It Ralph story contains these two exact roles for men. Wreck-it-Ralph is an angry loner who sleeps in a pile of wreckage, and Fix-it-Felix is lauded as the hero of Niceland.
posted by pwnguin at 12:40 PM on June 29, 2023
I don't think anyone is saying Norm is toxic. Bob Vila, maybe, I don't have the inside scoop on how he lost his show. But Norm seems like good people.
But if you just need zeitgeist examples, the Wreck It Ralph story contains these two exact roles for men. Wreck-it-Ralph is an angry loner who sleeps in a pile of wreckage, and Fix-it-Felix is lauded as the hero of Niceland.
posted by pwnguin at 12:40 PM on June 29, 2023
Shouldn't this be alleviated by the widespread availability of Viagra and like products?
Not all ED problems treatable with these drugs and many people can't take them because of other health issues.
posted by Mitheral at 1:30 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not all ED problems treatable with these drugs and many people can't take them because of other health issues.
posted by Mitheral at 1:30 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
If anyone has a good reference on the “mr fix it” end of toxic masculinity I would love to see it.
It was speculative on my part. It never occurred to me before that there were strong aspects of “manhood must be earned / it is precarious and may be lost” in the perpetual “I must always be the useful one” pattern I see in a lot of my male friends, but I think it’s there. It’s in their definition of man/dad/husband and it appears to be a self-imposed obligation that can never be completely fulfilled.
posted by Silvery Fish at 1:45 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It was speculative on my part. It never occurred to me before that there were strong aspects of “manhood must be earned / it is precarious and may be lost” in the perpetual “I must always be the useful one” pattern I see in a lot of my male friends, but I think it’s there. It’s in their definition of man/dad/husband and it appears to be a self-imposed obligation that can never be completely fulfilled.
posted by Silvery Fish at 1:45 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It never occurred to me before that there were strong aspects of “manhood must be earned / it is precarious and may be lost” in the perpetual “I must always be the useful one” pattern I see in a lot of my male friends, but I think it’s there.
That doesn't ring true. Maybe just in the belief that traditional old-school manhood obligates one to self-sacrifice, and to always pitch in. Not seeing this as "toxic" or precarious. Though I do feel helpless when I misplace my Leatherman. Annoying to others sometimes, maybe. (see also: mansplaining)
Whoops, time for evening prayers.
posted by Artful Codger at 3:31 PM on June 29, 2023
That doesn't ring true. Maybe just in the belief that traditional old-school manhood obligates one to self-sacrifice, and to always pitch in. Not seeing this as "toxic" or precarious. Though I do feel helpless when I misplace my Leatherman. Annoying to others sometimes, maybe. (see also: mansplaining)
Whoops, time for evening prayers.
posted by Artful Codger at 3:31 PM on June 29, 2023
It never occurred to me before that there were strong aspects of “manhood must be earned / it is precarious and may be lost” in the perpetual “I must always be the useful one” pattern I see in a lot of my male friends, but I think it’s there.
I think this is a real thing and it's the way I've often felt about myself, particularly the 'must always be useful' part. There's a lot of conditioning in males that grew up in the 60s/70s (probably earlier also, maybe even more so) that being a man means being able to do things and, especially, to fix things. Only physical things, though - none of us know how to fix emotions or anything that can't be held in the hand and figured out by looking at how it works.
I can see how this results in some fragility in an age where nobody fixes anything and a throw-away society has devalued the ability to pick up a broken thing and fix it. I don't think it necessarily leads to toxic masculinity, but there's definitely a point where that fragility turns toxic in some people.
posted by dg at 3:52 PM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think this is a real thing and it's the way I've often felt about myself, particularly the 'must always be useful' part. There's a lot of conditioning in males that grew up in the 60s/70s (probably earlier also, maybe even more so) that being a man means being able to do things and, especially, to fix things. Only physical things, though - none of us know how to fix emotions or anything that can't be held in the hand and figured out by looking at how it works.
I can see how this results in some fragility in an age where nobody fixes anything and a throw-away society has devalued the ability to pick up a broken thing and fix it. I don't think it necessarily leads to toxic masculinity, but there's definitely a point where that fragility turns toxic in some people.
posted by dg at 3:52 PM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
PMB, TMI & ED
From the study: Although many risk factors for ED, such as an unhealthy lifestyle, genetic or hormonal markers, medical conditions, relationship satisfaction, and intimacy motivation, exist (Allen & Walter, 2019; Walther et al., 2017), few studies have examined the relationship between men’s adherence to concepts of masculinity and their erectile functioning.
Since this study engages (mainly) two issues related to erectile dysfunction, the topic should be Precarious Manhood Beliefs and Traditional Masculinity Ideation rather than "erectile dysfunction" as relates to...
To a non-statistician such as myself, the essay read more like: I drove my car from Chicago to Tucson because the front tire on my bicycle was flat. Here are my gas receipts and bill for that lousy motel I had to stay in near Deming New Mexico. (My poor bicycle's flat tire gets lost in the noise.)
PMB and TMI have cultural and social convolutions broader than various versions of erectile dysfunction.
While at it, I don't see how PMB is a sub-set of "toxic masculinity." Would it not be the other way around? After all, Precarious Manhood Belief isn't limited only to cis-males--our families and friends impart many of our core values. Much of the rest comes to us via those lovely television commercials. Traditions evolve. They may be exclusive to any given culture. Traditional Manhood Ideologies should also not be a sub-set of "toxic masculinity."
Finally, Viagra or similar chemicals strive only to return some wood to a person's experience. Still, they work the same way a toupee fools people into believing they really have hair. If you think your "problems" will be solved with a stiff dick you may have more serious underlying issues to work out. Erectile Dysfunction has more subtle effects than a flaccid penis. The role of mutuality during sex doesn't seem to have much traction in this study.
posted by mule98J at 4:19 PM on June 29, 2023
From the study: Although many risk factors for ED, such as an unhealthy lifestyle, genetic or hormonal markers, medical conditions, relationship satisfaction, and intimacy motivation, exist (Allen & Walter, 2019; Walther et al., 2017), few studies have examined the relationship between men’s adherence to concepts of masculinity and their erectile functioning.
Since this study engages (mainly) two issues related to erectile dysfunction, the topic should be Precarious Manhood Beliefs and Traditional Masculinity Ideation rather than "erectile dysfunction" as relates to...
To a non-statistician such as myself, the essay read more like: I drove my car from Chicago to Tucson because the front tire on my bicycle was flat. Here are my gas receipts and bill for that lousy motel I had to stay in near Deming New Mexico. (My poor bicycle's flat tire gets lost in the noise.)
PMB and TMI have cultural and social convolutions broader than various versions of erectile dysfunction.
While at it, I don't see how PMB is a sub-set of "toxic masculinity." Would it not be the other way around? After all, Precarious Manhood Belief isn't limited only to cis-males--our families and friends impart many of our core values. Much of the rest comes to us via those lovely television commercials. Traditions evolve. They may be exclusive to any given culture. Traditional Manhood Ideologies should also not be a sub-set of "toxic masculinity."
Finally, Viagra or similar chemicals strive only to return some wood to a person's experience. Still, they work the same way a toupee fools people into believing they really have hair. If you think your "problems" will be solved with a stiff dick you may have more serious underlying issues to work out. Erectile Dysfunction has more subtle effects than a flaccid penis. The role of mutuality during sex doesn't seem to have much traction in this study.
posted by mule98J at 4:19 PM on June 29, 2023
Self-reported Precarious Manhood Beliefs Are Associated with Self-reported Erectile Dysfunction in Anonymous Online Survey.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 4:42 PM on June 29, 2023
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 4:42 PM on June 29, 2023
I think that’s giving the study too much credit, given how they measure erectile dysfunction.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:08 PM on June 29, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:08 PM on June 29, 2023
They're main DV is to collapse a number of ordinal variables into a binary one based on whether the sum is over or under... 53?
"For each item, participants indicated how often it occurred or how much it applied to them during the past four weeks on a five-point Likert scale (e.g., from 1 = almost never/never to 5 = almost always/always), including a null-option for most items such as 0 = no sexual activity. A score below 53 is used as cutoff for to indicate erectile dysfunction (Rosen et al., 1997)"
Its not entirely clear if they keep the continuous scale for the models.
...
I think that’s giving the study too much credit, given how they measure erectile dysfunction.
I'm not a medically-trained person, but in all of the literature I've read, this is very much the standard way of defining a medical condition, particularly those that involve self-reporting. Like, this random link has a handful of standardized tests for anxiety, depression etc. that all work in this same basic way. I'd guess that the Rosen et al 1997 questionnaire is probably one of the clinical standards for ED.
At some point, people come in to see doctors for problems, and asking a standard questionnaire is something practical that can be done to assess how someone doing in some dimension. Like, there's no such thing as an anxietometer that you can stick your head into and get a reading out that you are currently suffering 0.24303 metric Chidis worth of anxiety. (And even if there was, there are likely to be cutoffs; how else are you going to convert a number into actionable advice?)
Since there's no machine, your choices are limited to: a) either everybody gets put through the same questionnaire which can get research tested, or b) every doctor is different and has a different set of questions that are all probably similar, but who has a condition depends entirely on which doctor they are talking to.
And if the questionnaire is being used in practice, then how else would you define it for research purposes? If everybody is using the same set of questions, at least then everybody is measuring the same thing, even if it's not a 1:1 match with the underlying real world condition, because the latter is literally unmeasurable.
It's very imperfect; it feels hard to answer specific questions, you can score 54 when the cutoff is 53, perhaps some of the questions should be weighed more than others.
posted by Superilla at 6:16 PM on June 29, 2023
"For each item, participants indicated how often it occurred or how much it applied to them during the past four weeks on a five-point Likert scale (e.g., from 1 = almost never/never to 5 = almost always/always), including a null-option for most items such as 0 = no sexual activity. A score below 53 is used as cutoff for to indicate erectile dysfunction (Rosen et al., 1997)"
Its not entirely clear if they keep the continuous scale for the models.
...
I think that’s giving the study too much credit, given how they measure erectile dysfunction.
I'm not a medically-trained person, but in all of the literature I've read, this is very much the standard way of defining a medical condition, particularly those that involve self-reporting. Like, this random link has a handful of standardized tests for anxiety, depression etc. that all work in this same basic way. I'd guess that the Rosen et al 1997 questionnaire is probably one of the clinical standards for ED.
At some point, people come in to see doctors for problems, and asking a standard questionnaire is something practical that can be done to assess how someone doing in some dimension. Like, there's no such thing as an anxietometer that you can stick your head into and get a reading out that you are currently suffering 0.24303 metric Chidis worth of anxiety. (And even if there was, there are likely to be cutoffs; how else are you going to convert a number into actionable advice?)
Since there's no machine, your choices are limited to: a) either everybody gets put through the same questionnaire which can get research tested, or b) every doctor is different and has a different set of questions that are all probably similar, but who has a condition depends entirely on which doctor they are talking to.
And if the questionnaire is being used in practice, then how else would you define it for research purposes? If everybody is using the same set of questions, at least then everybody is measuring the same thing, even if it's not a 1:1 match with the underlying real world condition, because the latter is literally unmeasurable.
It's very imperfect; it feels hard to answer specific questions, you can score 54 when the cutoff is 53, perhaps some of the questions should be weighed more than others.
posted by Superilla at 6:16 PM on June 29, 2023
the Precarious Masculinity reminds me of a question I've long had but never researched. As to what form female 'emasculation' might take. Not genital mutilation; I mean someone does or says something to you that makes you feel like less of a woman. What it would take, or what it would look like, for someone to get their capital-W Woman Card revoked, and what that would mean.
I don't have examples of movie dialogue like:
- "Who, Claire Jones? You must be new around here. Oh, she's Female all right. Reeeal feminine. But after THE INCIDENT, I don't think you'll find anyone in this town who'd call her a Woman."
- 'Date? What for? I'm a single dad raising two daughters. Why would I want a third girlchild to take care of? Sure, I'd love to have a Woman around the house. But when was the last time you met one of those?'
- [standing in front of a portrait in the Gallery of Heroes] "That's your grandmother up there. You'll meet lots of Girls in your life, and some Dames; maybe a Broad or two if you're lucky. But her? She was a Woman."
posted by bartleby at 7:12 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't have examples of movie dialogue like:
- "Who, Claire Jones? You must be new around here. Oh, she's Female all right. Reeeal feminine. But after THE INCIDENT, I don't think you'll find anyone in this town who'd call her a Woman."
- 'Date? What for? I'm a single dad raising two daughters. Why would I want a third girlchild to take care of? Sure, I'd love to have a Woman around the house. But when was the last time you met one of those?'
- [standing in front of a portrait in the Gallery of Heroes] "That's your grandmother up there. You'll meet lots of Girls in your life, and some Dames; maybe a Broad or two if you're lucky. But her? She was a Woman."
posted by bartleby at 7:12 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
bartleby: What it would take, or what it would look like, for someone to get their capital-W Woman Card revoked, and what that would mean.
You're most likely to see that in conservative religious communities which emphasize purity culture, I think.
Although... in those cases it seems like it goes in the opposite direction, where a woman will lose her special status if she "grows up" too much. A divorce might lose that status, or premarital sex ("chewed bubble gum"), or trying to become a pastor, or getting a job instead of being a homemaker.
posted by clawsoon at 7:30 PM on June 29, 2023
You're most likely to see that in conservative religious communities which emphasize purity culture, I think.
Although... in those cases it seems like it goes in the opposite direction, where a woman will lose her special status if she "grows up" too much. A divorce might lose that status, or premarital sex ("chewed bubble gum"), or trying to become a pastor, or getting a job instead of being a homemaker.
posted by clawsoon at 7:30 PM on June 29, 2023
/It's very imperfect; it feels hard to answer specific questions, you can score 54 when the cutoff is 53, perhaps some of the questions should be weighed more than others
That’s fine for medical practice but this is statistics and there’s no need to convert a continuous variable here into a binary one. When I see arbitrary choices like these I think, doing the obvious thing probably didn’t get them the results they wanted so that’s why they did this weird thing.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:01 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
That’s fine for medical practice but this is statistics and there’s no need to convert a continuous variable here into a binary one. When I see arbitrary choices like these I think, doing the obvious thing probably didn’t get them the results they wanted so that’s why they did this weird thing.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:01 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
That’s fine for medical practice but this is statistics and there’s no need to convert a continuous variable here into a binary one. When I see arbitrary choices like these I think, doing the obvious thing probably didn’t get them the results they wanted so that’s why they did this weird thing.
It's a study on what beliefs are associated with erectile dysfunction, and they're... using the literal clinical definition of erectile dysfunction. I think using anything else would be the weird thing. Sorry if it doesn't feel as "science-y" as you'd like.
posted by Superilla at 9:31 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a study on what beliefs are associated with erectile dysfunction, and they're... using the literal clinical definition of erectile dysfunction. I think using anything else would be the weird thing. Sorry if it doesn't feel as "science-y" as you'd like.
posted by Superilla at 9:31 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Related?
New Yorker: The Perils & Promises of Penis Enlargement Surgery.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:55 AM on June 30, 2023
New Yorker: The Perils & Promises of Penis Enlargement Surgery.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:55 AM on June 30, 2023
Also, can anybody who knows explain what the significance of "the back translated German version of the PMB has previously been found to possess unsatisfactory reliability" is?
I can elucidate the context somewhat. A back translation is a type of linguistic quality control measure that is fairly common in clinical applications (especially clinical trials): starting from a source language (here, English) document, a first translation team (translator, editor, possibly multiple levels of reviewers, all duly qualified for English-to-German work) prepares a "forward translation" of the document into the target language (here, German). A second translation team, duly qualified for German-to-English, then prepares a "back translation" of the forward translation, from German back into English, so that it can be reviewed by the same team that reviewed the original document to ensure that it meets the same standards as the original document.
I would have expected the quoted passage to mean that someone did some testing of the PMB that had been back-translated into English. But then they refer to it being administered to German and Swiss patients. So I think they are using "back translated German version" to mean "the German forward translation, which has been QC'd through back-translation".
posted by Not A Thing at 2:26 PM on June 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can elucidate the context somewhat. A back translation is a type of linguistic quality control measure that is fairly common in clinical applications (especially clinical trials): starting from a source language (here, English) document, a first translation team (translator, editor, possibly multiple levels of reviewers, all duly qualified for English-to-German work) prepares a "forward translation" of the document into the target language (here, German). A second translation team, duly qualified for German-to-English, then prepares a "back translation" of the forward translation, from German back into English, so that it can be reviewed by the same team that reviewed the original document to ensure that it meets the same standards as the original document.
I would have expected the quoted passage to mean that someone did some testing of the PMB that had been back-translated into English. But then they refer to it being administered to German and Swiss patients. So I think they are using "back translated German version" to mean "the German forward translation, which has been QC'd through back-translation".
posted by Not A Thing at 2:26 PM on June 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by protorp at 3:02 AM on June 29, 2023