I’m a Luddite (and So Can You!)
July 25, 2023 5:18 PM Subscribe
In one of the last long form pieces for The Nib, Tom Humberstone talks about the true nature of the Luddite movement, and how their ideals of machines in service to man continue to resonate today. (SLThe Nib)
I've heard it used as a sort of insult when someone isn't good with technology
To elaborate on my comment in a thread earlier - the term was made into a pejorative term as a way to dismiss the actual humanistic beliefs of the movement, and to attack organized labor - hence why its use in the pejorative form so rankled me.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:42 PM on July 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
To elaborate on my comment in a thread earlier - the term was made into a pejorative term as a way to dismiss the actual humanistic beliefs of the movement, and to attack organized labor - hence why its use in the pejorative form so rankled me.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:42 PM on July 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
Darn, I gave away my sabots a while back...
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:49 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:49 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've very proudly been a Luddite for years, and ironically this is one of the communities where I've experienced serious push-back for it, but not in the context of AI and the loss of jobs of artists and privacy and digital stuff, but in the simple aspects of labor like automated check-out and cashiers, increased automation in manufacturing where you don't increase quality or safety over a well-managed shop, you merely eliminate jobs.
When I have talked about the importance of base-level jobs, work a person can get without extra education, often without even a GED, I have been told that I'm being regressive and the future of automation and technology will bring a world where such 'meaningless' and 'demeaning' and 'less-than-human' work won't be necessary. By people here, to the degree where 'techno-philia overweighs human concerns every time' is something I warn other leftists about this place. To the point I quit talking about it, all it does is upset the tech-bros reading this on lunch at their WFH taking a break from participating in it.
I already know I'm going to get a talking to here about not appreciating the concerns of those paid far better than me and have some examples of legitimate poor artists thrown at me as though the capitalist system wasn't already crushing those people, but I can't help but notice a sudden revival of a term that has made me a pariah in several communities the moment it started threatening the jobs of digital artists and media workers.
posted by neonrev at 6:57 PM on July 25, 2023 [35 favorites]
When I have talked about the importance of base-level jobs, work a person can get without extra education, often without even a GED, I have been told that I'm being regressive and the future of automation and technology will bring a world where such 'meaningless' and 'demeaning' and 'less-than-human' work won't be necessary. By people here, to the degree where 'techno-philia overweighs human concerns every time' is something I warn other leftists about this place. To the point I quit talking about it, all it does is upset the tech-bros reading this on lunch at their WFH taking a break from participating in it.
I already know I'm going to get a talking to here about not appreciating the concerns of those paid far better than me and have some examples of legitimate poor artists thrown at me as though the capitalist system wasn't already crushing those people, but I can't help but notice a sudden revival of a term that has made me a pariah in several communities the moment it started threatening the jobs of digital artists and media workers.
posted by neonrev at 6:57 PM on July 25, 2023 [35 favorites]
I've heard it used as a sort of insult when someone isn't good with technology
It can be used that way. More often it used as an aspersion for someone who doesn't embrace a new technology regardless of the reason they give.
Trying to reclaim the name Luddite is a mixed bag. With regards to stopping the spread of automation the movement was an utter and complete failure. However, by threatening to continually destroy the factories they were able to negotiate a way to stay profitably employed with much fewer hours.
This was greatly helped by the fact that there was a huge untapped market for manufactured goods. A community that was producing 30 sweaters a month really could produce 150 and sell them. That meant the factory owners still needed all the employees and sometimes more.
That untapped market was key though. Without that there would be only 30 sweaters being made by a lot fewer people.
The current situation is tougher. We can now (as a rough example) create five times as many movie scripts using the same amount of people, but is there actually a demand for five times as many movie scripts? A single person can probably produce up to 10 times as much marketing literature, but I'm pretty sure everyone agrees the world doesn't need that.
Any new Luddite movement faces two key difference from the original:
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:33 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
It can be used that way. More often it used as an aspersion for someone who doesn't embrace a new technology regardless of the reason they give.
Trying to reclaim the name Luddite is a mixed bag. With regards to stopping the spread of automation the movement was an utter and complete failure. However, by threatening to continually destroy the factories they were able to negotiate a way to stay profitably employed with much fewer hours.
This was greatly helped by the fact that there was a huge untapped market for manufactured goods. A community that was producing 30 sweaters a month really could produce 150 and sell them. That meant the factory owners still needed all the employees and sometimes more.
That untapped market was key though. Without that there would be only 30 sweaters being made by a lot fewer people.
The current situation is tougher. We can now (as a rough example) create five times as many movie scripts using the same amount of people, but is there actually a demand for five times as many movie scripts? A single person can probably produce up to 10 times as much marketing literature, but I'm pretty sure everyone agrees the world doesn't need that.
Any new Luddite movement faces two key difference from the original:
- Impeding production has become much, much harder if not outright impossible. The facilities are not available for sledgehammers and arson, and the scabs are not by definition your neighbors.
- This time around there may be no vast untapped demand that will require people to fill. There may be no negotiation because the owners won't need the workers.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:33 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
in the simple aspects of labor like automated check-out and cashiers, increased automation in manufacturing where you don't increase quality or safety over a well-managed shop, you merely eliminate jobs.
I've always been of the opinion that automation was going to continue unchecked until it hit white collar jobs. And here we are, and the conversation has definitely taken a different tone than one about automated fast-food kiosks.
The naturally job-entitled white people have been hit and the narrative is changing rapidly.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:40 PM on July 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
I've always been of the opinion that automation was going to continue unchecked until it hit white collar jobs. And here we are, and the conversation has definitely taken a different tone than one about automated fast-food kiosks.
The naturally job-entitled white people have been hit and the narrative is changing rapidly.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:40 PM on July 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
naturally job-entitled
Just to clarify that, it's not that they're entitled to get any job they want, it's that they're entitled for jobs for them to exist at all.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:41 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just to clarify that, it's not that they're entitled to get any job they want, it's that they're entitled for jobs for them to exist at all.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:41 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
An aspect of Luddism omitted from this comic (and I did like it!) is that it was partly about control over time, pace and the work itself, not just low wages and drudgery.
Weavers were able to set their own hours and decide how much work they did. If they wanted to observe "Saint Monday" and get drunk instead of weaving, they could. Working in the factory system, you have to observe clock hours and work all the hours the master demands, under supervision, keeping up with the machinery.
Nowadays rather than mandating 14 hour days, companies often want to keep you part time and precarious, but the bosses still want to dictate your day through requiring availability for shifts and 24/7 responses to messages, and to work under surveillance. Freedom is at stake as well as money.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:18 PM on July 25, 2023 [28 favorites]
Weavers were able to set their own hours and decide how much work they did. If they wanted to observe "Saint Monday" and get drunk instead of weaving, they could. Working in the factory system, you have to observe clock hours and work all the hours the master demands, under supervision, keeping up with the machinery.
Nowadays rather than mandating 14 hour days, companies often want to keep you part time and precarious, but the bosses still want to dictate your day through requiring availability for shifts and 24/7 responses to messages, and to work under surveillance. Freedom is at stake as well as money.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:18 PM on July 25, 2023 [28 favorites]
(there is also a whole chapter in Capital Vol 1 about capitalists' need to maximise the return on fixed plant by minimising what they pay workers and getting all the hours they can worked to keep the plant operating, with historical references to the factory system and the weavers... kind of surprised that there's no Marxist analysis in the comic, not even using the word alienation when AI generation based on your likeness or your creative output is alienating you in the purest way).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:33 PM on July 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:33 PM on July 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Interesting - I kind of knew the term wasn't being used correctly by referring to technophobes as Luddites, but the actual history is fascinating. Applied to today, it's easy to see the results could be much worse, partly because automation is so much more sophisticated that the need for workers at all is minimal and also because it's no longer limited to manual labour. I don't see that our economies are growing fast enough to take up the slack and widespread near-global unemployment seems the most likely outcome, with widespread near-global labour revolts either just behind or alongside that.
companies often want to keep you part time and precarious
Here in Australia, they want to keep you casual, because part-time employment involves regular hours and benefits like sick pay, whereas casual employment entitles you to neither, but comes with the added slap in the face of expected 24/7 availability at short notice. The casualisation of the workforce is a very real thing in many industries here.
posted by dg at 12:08 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
companies often want to keep you part time and precarious
Here in Australia, they want to keep you casual, because part-time employment involves regular hours and benefits like sick pay, whereas casual employment entitles you to neither, but comes with the added slap in the face of expected 24/7 availability at short notice. The casualisation of the workforce is a very real thing in many industries here.
posted by dg at 12:08 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
As I posted in the ask: Is It O.K. to Be a Luddite? by Thomas Pynchon
Now, given that kind of time span, it's just not easy to think of Ned Lud as a technophobic crazy. No doubt what people admired and mythologized him for was the vigor and single- mindedness of his assault. But the words "fit of insane rage" are third-hand and at least 68 years after the event. And Ned Lud's anger was not directed at the machines, not exactly. I like to think of it more as the controlled, martial-arts type anger of the dedicated Badass.
posted by chavenet at 2:39 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Now, given that kind of time span, it's just not easy to think of Ned Lud as a technophobic crazy. No doubt what people admired and mythologized him for was the vigor and single- mindedness of his assault. But the words "fit of insane rage" are third-hand and at least 68 years after the event. And Ned Lud's anger was not directed at the machines, not exactly. I like to think of it more as the controlled, martial-arts type anger of the dedicated Badass.
posted by chavenet at 2:39 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is good.
I had no idea Ned Ludd didn’t exist. The ghost not in the machine.
posted by Mchelly at 2:42 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I had no idea Ned Ludd didn’t exist. The ghost not in the machine.
posted by Mchelly at 2:42 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
That link has gone straight in my bio.
I used to describe myself as a Luddite but, because I work in technology, people assume I'm just being ironic. These days I tend to just try to get them to join the/a union instead. (Which interestingly, for a whole bunch of reasons, has been getting to be a much more successful over the last decade or so.)
posted by Luddite at 3:36 AM on July 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
I used to describe myself as a Luddite but, because I work in technology, people assume I'm just being ironic. These days I tend to just try to get them to join the/a union instead. (Which interestingly, for a whole bunch of reasons, has been getting to be a much more successful over the last decade or so.)
posted by Luddite at 3:36 AM on July 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
I would just like to encourage everyone to self-identify as luddites if that's how they truly feel - and thanks for posting this article!
posted by some loser at 4:06 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by some loser at 4:06 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
We don't need an actual Butler to start the Jihad.
posted by whuppy at 6:40 AM on July 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 6:40 AM on July 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
"Automated and AI technologies tend to mask the human labor that allows them to be fully integrated into a social context while profoundly changing the conditions and quality of labor that is at stake"
This.
I've found there are few things more unbearable in AI spaces than someone who's only ever worked with already existing datasets with nicely defined labels. There's a ton of work that goes into producing those datasets and while you might think creating a model is as easy as downloading a kaggle and having at it, but that ignores all the work that went into acquiring a balanced dataset, training the people doing the labeling how to recognize domain-specific areas of interest, and all the work those people do with the actual labeling.
All those AI algorithms that detect cancer are just running off the knowledge and intuition of the people who methodically put together the training set by examining each image by hand.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:51 AM on July 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
This.
I've found there are few things more unbearable in AI spaces than someone who's only ever worked with already existing datasets with nicely defined labels. There's a ton of work that goes into producing those datasets and while you might think creating a model is as easy as downloading a kaggle and having at it, but that ignores all the work that went into acquiring a balanced dataset, training the people doing the labeling how to recognize domain-specific areas of interest, and all the work those people do with the actual labeling.
All those AI algorithms that detect cancer are just running off the knowledge and intuition of the people who methodically put together the training set by examining each image by hand.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:51 AM on July 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
The linked piece is a great history and overview, (so thanks) but it is inaccurate or misleading in some areas. For example - automation doesn't make doctors do two hours of paperwork for every hour of providing actual care; a for-profit private-insurer healthcare system and the resulting bureaucracy is the reason.
I dislike many current implementations of consumer-facing automation - eg: phone "assistants" that are half-deaf and stuck in very narrow lanes. Hate'em. I'll keep mashing 0 til a human finally picks up. But this is not the technology; it's the half-assed and often premature or ill-considered deployment of it.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:00 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I dislike many current implementations of consumer-facing automation - eg: phone "assistants" that are half-deaf and stuck in very narrow lanes. Hate'em. I'll keep mashing 0 til a human finally picks up. But this is not the technology; it's the half-assed and often premature or ill-considered deployment of it.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:00 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I enjoyed this. I will mention a false note at the very end, where it mentions that "quiet quitting" can be considered a form of Luddism.
Quiet quitting is a term invented by bosses to describe employee just doing their jobs, and not going above and beyond. A related concept, perhaps, but using it at all endorses the boss' mindset.
posted by adamrice at 9:50 AM on July 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Quiet quitting is a term invented by bosses to describe employee just doing their jobs, and not going above and beyond. A related concept, perhaps, but using it at all endorses the boss' mindset.
posted by adamrice at 9:50 AM on July 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
kind of surprised that there's no Marxist analysis in the comic
Me too.
Interesting comic. It starts by introducing the Luddites, then broadens out into a sketch of some moments of western opposition to a pretty wide range of technologies.
For the teachers on the blue: I had good experiences teaching the Reacting to the Past Luddite rebellion game. Students really got into their roles (local lord, journalist, clergy, spinners, small business people, one utopian, several secret Luddites, etc) and by seeing their characters through the gameworld developed a deeper appreciation of technology and resistance.
posted by doctornemo at 1:06 PM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Me too.
Interesting comic. It starts by introducing the Luddites, then broadens out into a sketch of some moments of western opposition to a pretty wide range of technologies.
For the teachers on the blue: I had good experiences teaching the Reacting to the Past Luddite rebellion game. Students really got into their roles (local lord, journalist, clergy, spinners, small business people, one utopian, several secret Luddites, etc) and by seeing their characters through the gameworld developed a deeper appreciation of technology and resistance.
posted by doctornemo at 1:06 PM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Once again, I think it's important to remember that the Luddites failed to stop the spread of technology. In fact I'm not sure that the business use of any technology has ever been stopped on the grounds that it was dehumanizing or would cost jobs.
Luddism helped define the demands that wider worker's movements needed to pursue. Also I'm sure the trashed equipment and burning buildings instilled a healthy fear of violence in the owners. But as far as derailing technological adoption is concerned they were a complete failure.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:27 PM on July 27, 2023
Luddism helped define the demands that wider worker's movements needed to pursue. Also I'm sure the trashed equipment and burning buildings instilled a healthy fear of violence in the owners. But as far as derailing technological adoption is concerned they were a complete failure.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:27 PM on July 27, 2023
But as far as derailing technological adoption is concerned they were a complete failure.
Because that was never the intent of the Luddites. And the fact that you think it was is the result of two centuries of anti-labor propaganda.
The Luddites were never anti-technology - many of those in the movement were trained mill workers. What they believed in was machines in service to man - that technology should serve the people, not the other way around. When they destroyed mills, they often targeted those that had maimed or killed workers.
The idea of the Luddites being "anti-technology" was propaganda from the mill owners to turn public opinion against the movement - and they were so effective at this that the movement's name is to this day used to describe someone who is unreasonably anti-technology, continuing to push anti-labor ideas centuries later.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:50 PM on July 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Because that was never the intent of the Luddites. And the fact that you think it was is the result of two centuries of anti-labor propaganda.
The Luddites were never anti-technology - many of those in the movement were trained mill workers. What they believed in was machines in service to man - that technology should serve the people, not the other way around. When they destroyed mills, they often targeted those that had maimed or killed workers.
The idea of the Luddites being "anti-technology" was propaganda from the mill owners to turn public opinion against the movement - and they were so effective at this that the movement's name is to this day used to describe someone who is unreasonably anti-technology, continuing to push anti-labor ideas centuries later.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:50 PM on July 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
>But as far as derailing technological adoption is concerned they were a complete failure.
Because that was never the intent of the Luddites.
Derailing technological adoption was definitely a goal of Luddism. One does not need to be anti-technology to be starving to death because your job has been rendered obsolete. The people who destroyed the mills wanted their livelihoods back, and part of that meant stopping the loom technology from being (further) adopted.
The fact that they were painted as being rabidly anti-everything-technology-related doesn’t change the fact that they really did want to derail the adoption of certain job-killing technologies. Just as today actors and writers want to derail the adoption of CGI and AI that would replace them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:12 PM on July 27, 2023
Because that was never the intent of the Luddites.
Derailing technological adoption was definitely a goal of Luddism. One does not need to be anti-technology to be starving to death because your job has been rendered obsolete. The people who destroyed the mills wanted their livelihoods back, and part of that meant stopping the loom technology from being (further) adopted.
The fact that they were painted as being rabidly anti-everything-technology-related doesn’t change the fact that they really did want to derail the adoption of certain job-killing technologies. Just as today actors and writers want to derail the adoption of CGI and AI that would replace them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:12 PM on July 27, 2023
Derailing technological adoption was definitely a goal of Luddism. One does not need to be anti-technology to be starving to death because your job has been rendered obsolete. The people who destroyed the mills wanted their livelihoods back, and part of that meant stopping the loom technology from being (further) adopted.
Once again, the Luddites were predominantly trained mill workers, skilled in using the very machines they were smashing. They weren't angry that their jobs were taken away - they were angry that their jobs were killing them - either metaphorically through long, poorly compensated hours; or quite literally through unsafe working conditions (and again, the Luddites would often target with their hammers looms that had claimed lives.)
You are literally repeating centuries-old anti-labor propaganda that was designed to paint the unionism of the Luddites as anti-intellectualism and opposition to progress.
Just as today actors and writers want to derail the adoption of CGI and AI that would replace them.
Again, the problem isn't the technology, but how it is being abused. Actors aren't opposed to CGI - they're opposed to the studios stealing their likeness to use without due compensation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:52 PM on July 27, 2023
Once again, the Luddites were predominantly trained mill workers, skilled in using the very machines they were smashing. They weren't angry that their jobs were taken away - they were angry that their jobs were killing them - either metaphorically through long, poorly compensated hours; or quite literally through unsafe working conditions (and again, the Luddites would often target with their hammers looms that had claimed lives.)
You are literally repeating centuries-old anti-labor propaganda that was designed to paint the unionism of the Luddites as anti-intellectualism and opposition to progress.
Just as today actors and writers want to derail the adoption of CGI and AI that would replace them.
Again, the problem isn't the technology, but how it is being abused. Actors aren't opposed to CGI - they're opposed to the studios stealing their likeness to use without due compensation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:52 PM on July 27, 2023
Say what you will, it'll always be the Cropper lads for me.
What, though the Specials still advance
And soldiers nightly round us prance,
The Cropper lads still lead the dance
With hatchet, pike and gun!
(Why yes, I have been restraining the urge to post this song in every ChatGPT thread. But it seems genuinely on-topic here.)
posted by Not A Thing at 7:44 PM on July 27, 2023
What, though the Specials still advance
And soldiers nightly round us prance,
The Cropper lads still lead the dance
With hatchet, pike and gun!
(Why yes, I have been restraining the urge to post this song in every ChatGPT thread. But it seems genuinely on-topic here.)
posted by Not A Thing at 7:44 PM on July 27, 2023
Just as today actors and writers want to derail the adoption of CGI and AI that would replace them.
There seems to be some confusion here so let me try to make it clear. The WGA list of proposals, posted on the WGA website, contains the following text under Artificial Intelligence:
They weren't angry that their jobs were taken away
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:20 PM on July 27, 2023
There seems to be some confusion here so let me try to make it clear. The WGA list of proposals, posted on the WGA website, contains the following text under Artificial Intelligence:
Proposal: Regulate use of artificial intelligence on MBA covered projects: AI can't write or rewrite literary material, can't be used as source material, and the MBA-covered material can't be used to train AI.So, the proposal includes that AI can't write material and cannot be used as source material. Which, to my naive reading, sounds like they're trying to restrict the adoption of technology. Could be wrong though.
They weren't angry that their jobs were taken away
[A letter from "A Souldier Returned to his Wife and weeping Orphans" to a Member of Parliament from Wiltshire (1802)]:
We know that it have been mentioned to our great men and Ministers in Parliament by them that have Factorys how many poor they employ, forgetting at the same time how many more they would employ were they to have it done by hand as they used to do. The Poor house we find full of great lurking Boys.... I am informed by many that there will be a Revolution and that there is in Yorkshire about 30 thousand in a Correspondent Society.... The burning of Factorys or setting fire to the property of People we know is not right, but Starvation forces Nature to do that which he would not....
[An anonymous letter to a Gloucestershire clothier (1802)]:It could be that both of these calls for the indiscriminate destruction of factories and/or cutting out people's hearts are just industrialist propaganda that were just insufficiently vetted by the UC Irvine professor who included them in a section on Luddism. Or maybe not.
Wee Hear in Formed that you got Shear in mee sheens and if you Dont Pull them Down in a Forght Nights Time Wee will pull them Down for you Wee will you Damd infernold Dog. And Bee four Almighty God we will pull down all the Mills that heave Heany Shearing me Shens in We will cut out Hall your Damd Hearts as Do Keep them and We will meock the rest Heat them or else We will Searve them the Seam.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:20 PM on July 27, 2023
I wasn't sure whether this merited a new post, or whether it's weird to put this here, but since this is the last thread that mentions The Nib: They've put all issues of The Nib online for free, downloadable as PDFs. There is a request for donations to keep the website up and running, so the comics can continue to be enjoyed.
posted by mittens at 4:42 PM on August 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mittens at 4:42 PM on August 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
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