Like Donald Trump, But For Nerds
July 27, 2023 10:34 AM Subscribe
Elon Musk Today. A compendium of Elon’s products and services that have failed to materialize. (Via the always wonderfully ranty Ed Zitron.)
Like, I'm not really rooting against Space X attempting to launch another Falcon Heavy rocket tonight after scrubbing yesterday's launch, but on the other hand I'm prepared for the bottom to fall out of 100% of the ventures this asshole has touched.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:50 AM on July 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:50 AM on July 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
I appreciate that most of this is not twitter, cause I feel like he's getting slammed on twitter while the average person still thinks Tesla and SpaceX are well run....
posted by subdee at 10:54 AM on July 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by subdee at 10:54 AM on July 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
My apologies, slammed on X...
posted by subdee at 10:55 AM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by subdee at 10:55 AM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Some of these are things that are genuinely hard and couldn't be achieved. Many of them are Musk's made up flights of fancy, often late night tweets. And occasionally some of them are pure evil political manipulation.
Elon Musk’s Hyperloop idea was just a ruse to kill California’s high-speed rail project.
Tesla battery swap at Harris Ranch? Not quite. (Turned out to be a scam to capture credits for an EV incentive program.)
posted by Nelson at 11:05 AM on July 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
Elon Musk’s Hyperloop idea was just a ruse to kill California’s high-speed rail project.
Tesla battery swap at Harris Ranch? Not quite. (Turned out to be a scam to capture credits for an EV incentive program.)
posted by Nelson at 11:05 AM on July 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
The Karen thing started as a critique of the particular way that middle to upper middle class white women/white femininity can instantiate racism. It’s a really important critique that expands our understanding of how racism is perpetuated culturally in the US and other places influenced by US culture. Watering that down by referring to Musk as “Space Karen”, in addition to adding a misogynist element to the original critique that was not originally intended (a la the old sports canard of telling a male athlete that they run or throw like a girl), does a significant disservice to that important critique of how racism is enacted differently depending on the white person’s position with gender hierarchies. Musk is a rich white bro, and enacts racism in ways consistent with that socioeconomic position.
posted by eviemath at 11:07 AM on July 27, 2023 [97 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 11:07 AM on July 27, 2023 [97 favorites]
I don't want to pile on to slogger or detract from discussion of the corrosive misadventures of this childish billionaire but "Space Karen" also struck me as misogynist and I was surprised to it casually used in a frontpage post in Metafilter.
posted by ElKevbo at 11:10 AM on July 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by ElKevbo at 11:10 AM on July 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
Twitter is not a person, to whom it is owed the kindness and compassion of using its chosen name. you can still totally keep calling it Twitter. its feelings won't be hurt.
posted by glonous keming at 11:16 AM on July 27, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 11:16 AM on July 27, 2023 [16 favorites]
I call it xitter now, as in 'right down the . . .'
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:19 AM on July 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:19 AM on July 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
Mod note: Reached out to OP to reword the "Space Karen" bit as it is pretty gendered/sexist
posted by loup (staff) at 11:28 AM on July 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:28 AM on July 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
In today's news:
Musk totally ok with child sexual abuse on Twitter
(seriously, be careful on Twitter because that stuff is not being taken down like it once was.)
Tesla lied about car range
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:31 AM on July 27, 2023 [22 favorites]
Musk totally ok with child sexual abuse on Twitter
(seriously, be careful on Twitter because that stuff is not being taken down like it once was.)
Tesla lied about car range
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:31 AM on July 27, 2023 [22 favorites]
OTOH, I've got a rental Model 3 LR in the driveway right now (planning some weekend travel that my LEAF isn't cut out for) and it's a pretty amazing technical achievement. Can't wait for my cybertruck! (LOL)
Apple could (and should!) have seriously applied itself to productize these technologies similarly, but chose to produce some TV shows instead.
Musk is certainly a curious character; chances are his private fortune is going to be larger than Bezos, Ellison, Buffet, and Gates combined net worths later this decade, and yet he sticks with his rather unfortunate stereotypical "techbro" [another gendered/sexist term here, alas] worldview.
I've been a big BEV fanatic for as long as I can remember, and even 5 years ago I just assumed the major makers would pivot to BEV and box Tesla into its niche premium sedan segment, i.e. a glorified Fisker or something. But Musk & Co have executed on bigger plans, while the legacy makers have been walking around with thumbs firmly inserted all this time.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:48 AM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Apple could (and should!) have seriously applied itself to productize these technologies similarly, but chose to produce some TV shows instead.
Musk is certainly a curious character; chances are his private fortune is going to be larger than Bezos, Ellison, Buffet, and Gates combined net worths later this decade, and yet he sticks with his rather unfortunate stereotypical "techbro" [another gendered/sexist term here, alas] worldview.
I've been a big BEV fanatic for as long as I can remember, and even 5 years ago I just assumed the major makers would pivot to BEV and box Tesla into its niche premium sedan segment, i.e. a glorified Fisker or something. But Musk & Co have executed on bigger plans, while the legacy makers have been walking around with thumbs firmly inserted all this time.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:48 AM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
elonmuskisgoinggreat.com
posted by gauche at 11:50 AM on July 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by gauche at 11:50 AM on July 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you're looking for a better (non-sexist) nickname than "Space Karen", how about calling him Dilbert Stark? (After racist asshat cartoonist Scott Adams' hapless nerdish self-insert character, and Tony Stark, the dry-drunk billionaire Marvel universe industrialist who thinks he's a hero and really isn't.)
posted by cstross at 12:03 PM on July 27, 2023 [47 favorites]
posted by cstross at 12:03 PM on July 27, 2023 [47 favorites]
I don't know, I think the name we're looking for is right in front of us: "Elon."
posted by klanawa at 12:06 PM on July 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 12:06 PM on July 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
"1,273 days since Elon Musk advised consumers that Teslas can safely function as a boat for short periods of time. (1/31/2020)"
To be fair, just about anything can safely function as a boat for short periods of time.
posted by bitslayer at 12:13 PM on July 27, 2023 [50 favorites]
To be fair, just about anything can safely function as a boat for short periods of time.
posted by bitslayer at 12:13 PM on July 27, 2023 [50 favorites]
Huh. I had no idea that my wide range of interests and abandoned projects were a reason for ridicule.
Maybe I believed too many motivational posters about letting failures go and moving ahead on the successes.
(cue people who are unable to handle the dichotomy of assholes also being successful. Oh wait, they're already here.)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:15 PM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Maybe I believed too many motivational posters about letting failures go and moving ahead on the successes.
(cue people who are unable to handle the dichotomy of assholes also being successful. Oh wait, they're already here.)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:15 PM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
instead of Space Karen how about Astro TERF
posted by mbrubeck at 12:19 PM on July 27, 2023 [65 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 12:19 PM on July 27, 2023 [65 favorites]
Like, I'm not really rooting against Space X attempting to launch another Falcon Heavy rocket tonight after scrubbing yesterday's launch, but on the other hand I'm prepared for the bottom to fall out
From my understanding of rockets, it would be much the worse if the bottom didn't fall out.
posted by aws17576 at 12:26 PM on July 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
From my understanding of rockets, it would be much the worse if the bottom didn't fall out.
posted by aws17576 at 12:26 PM on July 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
Astro TERF
this is hilarious but also, elon is definitely more incel than terf
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:30 PM on July 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
this is hilarious but also, elon is definitely more incel than terf
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:30 PM on July 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
"Elno" is an old favorite. It originated as a way to talk about him on the Birdsite without him knowing. "Phony Stark" is another good one. Reddit has additional suggestions.
posted by May Kasahara at 12:34 PM on July 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by May Kasahara at 12:34 PM on July 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
Huh. I had no idea that my wide range of interests and abandoned projects were a reason for ridicule.
Are you an ultra-wealthy prick riding on a reputational fiction of infallibility while making other people's lives measurably worse en masse? If not you probably don't need to take the link personally.
posted by cortex at 12:37 PM on July 27, 2023 [107 favorites]
Are you an ultra-wealthy prick riding on a reputational fiction of infallibility while making other people's lives measurably worse en masse? If not you probably don't need to take the link personally.
posted by cortex at 12:37 PM on July 27, 2023 [107 favorites]
I see the whole 'Karen' meme as misogynist from the very start, and using it on Musk seems to me to dilute the misogyny rather than intensify it.
But I still think it should be dropped altogether.
posted by jamjam at 12:47 PM on July 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
But I still think it should be dropped altogether.
posted by jamjam at 12:47 PM on July 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Elon Musk: over promises and under (and sometimes never) delivers. Tesla Service is a shitshow.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:50 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bluesky43 at 12:50 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Musk totally ok with child sexual abuse on Twitter
Not just any child sex abuse materials, but stills from a video so horrific that its existence was thought (hoped) to be an urban legend for a while.
posted by LindsayIrene at 12:55 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not just any child sex abuse materials, but stills from a video so horrific that its existence was thought (hoped) to be an urban legend for a while.
posted by LindsayIrene at 12:55 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
From this medium article "musk misses : the stories you don't hear about anymore" which is totally hilarious.
Roller Coaster/Free Yogurt
Based on this e-mail, Tesla Employees were about to get some serious swag for all their hard work with the “production hell” — and not unionizing — by way of an electric pod rollercoaster in the lobby and free (!) frozen yogurt stands. Never mind the near- impossible logistics of a large amusement park ride in and around Tesla’s Hawthorne offices — the noise alone will likely be a serious distraction. Though I’m curious about this frozen yogurt. Are we talking about something that resembles that old TCBY watered -down slop or Cold Stone Creamery fluffiness. Seriously Elon, how much love can you show your employees through dairy products? And please, no Dippin’ Dots.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:00 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Roller Coaster/Free Yogurt
Based on this e-mail, Tesla Employees were about to get some serious swag for all their hard work with the “production hell” — and not unionizing — by way of an electric pod rollercoaster in the lobby and free (!) frozen yogurt stands. Never mind the near- impossible logistics of a large amusement park ride in and around Tesla’s Hawthorne offices — the noise alone will likely be a serious distraction. Though I’m curious about this frozen yogurt. Are we talking about something that resembles that old TCBY watered -down slop or Cold Stone Creamery fluffiness. Seriously Elon, how much love can you show your employees through dairy products? And please, no Dippin’ Dots.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:00 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pretty sure nerds are off the Elon fan list. And I work in Silicon Valley with a whole bunch of nerds. Including myself.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:06 PM on July 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:06 PM on July 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hey, OP here. I’m really sorry about the offensive term. I picked it up in another thread the other day and thought it was funny, not thinking twice because I’m a bonehead. I’ve responded to the mods and requested the language be changed.
posted by slogger at 1:15 PM on July 27, 2023 [79 favorites]
posted by slogger at 1:15 PM on July 27, 2023 [79 favorites]
Melon Husk is my favorite name for Elon Musk.
posted by JHarris at 1:18 PM on July 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 1:18 PM on July 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
I never cared for the name "Space Karen". I always refer to him as Rocket Boy or Melon Husk.
posted by mike3k at 1:18 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mike3k at 1:18 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Phony Stark, Space Jesus and Miles Bron all work for me, depending on which hideous aspect the context suggests needs to be front-facing.
posted by flabdablet at 1:18 PM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:18 PM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Aww slogger, thanks for understanding.
posted by JHarris at 1:20 PM on July 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 1:20 PM on July 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
I just want to chime in with a vote for "Dilbert Stark" to replace "Space Karen" in the case of this particular dope.
posted by kensington314 at 1:21 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 1:21 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Huh. I had no idea that my wide range of interests and abandoned projects were a reason for ridicule.
I don't know if you're in the habit of making promises to customers, regulators and shareholders that go unfulfilled, but if you aren't most of the stuff on the site has little reflection on your projects.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:22 PM on July 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
I prefer "World's Dumbest Genius" and "World's Brokest Billionaire."
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:30 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:30 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I submit that maybe these nicknames aren't helpful and are the kind of thing that Donald Trump or George W. Bush do that makes them look like childish morons.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:31 PM on July 27, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:31 PM on July 27, 2023 [23 favorites]
1. What WOULD help? How do you solve a problem like an Elon? We can't. He gets away with everything.
2. Elon himself is also a childish moron.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:32 PM on July 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
2. Elon himself is also a childish moron.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:32 PM on July 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
As he aged my father became fixated on calling his congressperson, Devon Nunes, by the name "Devon Nonsense." It was incredibly, incredibly annoying. So annoying. So, star gentle uterus, I kind of get what you are saying.
But it is so satisfying to type "Dilbert Stark" instead of "Elon Musk." Not a fan of things that interpolate or re-interpret the sound of the actual name, like "Melon Husk," but others' mileage may vary.
posted by kensington314 at 1:37 PM on July 27, 2023
But it is so satisfying to type "Dilbert Stark" instead of "Elon Musk." Not a fan of things that interpolate or re-interpret the sound of the actual name, like "Melon Husk," but others' mileage may vary.
posted by kensington314 at 1:37 PM on July 27, 2023
I appreciate that most of this is not twitter, cause I feel like he's getting slammed on twitter while the average person still thinks Tesla and SpaceX are well run....
My understanding is that, to whatever degree SpaceX and Tesla have been run well enough to deliver reasonably functional products and services over the years, it's been because of people other than Musk. In fact, I've read that at one or both companies, there are teams of "Elon handlers" who job it is to essentially distract him in order to keep him from interfering too much in important operations.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 1:38 PM on July 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
My understanding is that, to whatever degree SpaceX and Tesla have been run well enough to deliver reasonably functional products and services over the years, it's been because of people other than Musk. In fact, I've read that at one or both companies, there are teams of "Elon handlers" who job it is to essentially distract him in order to keep him from interfering too much in important operations.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 1:38 PM on July 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints (Reuters)
"The automaker last year became so inundated with driving-range complaints that it created a special team to cancel owners’ service appointments."
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:39 PM on July 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
"The automaker last year became so inundated with driving-range complaints that it created a special team to cancel owners’ service appointments."
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:39 PM on July 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
What WOULD help? How do you solve a problem like an Elon? We can't. He gets away with everything.
This is an online discussion forum, we're not solving anything here. We are, however, discussing this topic and substantive comments about Musk's actions are far more helpful to that discussion than what flavor of "poopyhead" to call him.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:44 PM on July 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is an online discussion forum, we're not solving anything here. We are, however, discussing this topic and substantive comments about Musk's actions are far more helpful to that discussion than what flavor of "poopyhead" to call him.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:44 PM on July 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
I was going to drive my rental Model 3 to a rocket landing on Sunday, but the launch got scrubbed.
My main life goal remaining for me is finally doing the #vanlife thing I've been wanting to do for the past 40-odd years, ever since reading this story .
Starlink, FSD (assuming it ever works), and Cybertruck slot into that pretty well!
What Elon did to Twitter was pretty f-in nefarious. I know exactly why he's done what he's done and it's intensely odious to me. I cancelled my 10 year Twitter account last December when Fuentes was somehow allowed to return – basically even under the previous regime I found myself blocking literally thousands of accounts, and seeing that this class of blocked accounts were going to be actively boosted by the new management was a bridge too far.
All I want is an ~$80k OTG BEV RV so I can get out and do the Walden thing as the world runs down.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:44 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
My main life goal remaining for me is finally doing the #vanlife thing I've been wanting to do for the past 40-odd years, ever since reading this story .
Starlink, FSD (assuming it ever works), and Cybertruck slot into that pretty well!
What Elon did to Twitter was pretty f-in nefarious. I know exactly why he's done what he's done and it's intensely odious to me. I cancelled my 10 year Twitter account last December when Fuentes was somehow allowed to return – basically even under the previous regime I found myself blocking literally thousands of accounts, and seeing that this class of blocked accounts were going to be actively boosted by the new management was a bridge too far.
All I want is an ~$80k OTG BEV RV so I can get out and do the Walden thing as the world runs down.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:44 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
> inundated
I read that and it seemed like a nothingburger. Tesla has telematics to see the battery SOH and knows a service appointment is not appropriate for this issue.
"Managers told the employees that they were saving Tesla about $1,000 for every canceled appointment, the people said. Another goal was to ease the pressure on service centers, some of which had long waits for appointments."
seems about right. The bit about Elon wanting a BS range display for the Model S rings true tho. Similar to the deceptive "FSD" video from 2016 showing the car stopping at a red light when it couldn't then.
but I've rented Teslas twice now and driven to both Montana and Oregon, and the range displays were fine. Coming from a LEAF, I understand how all this works.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:50 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I read that and it seemed like a nothingburger. Tesla has telematics to see the battery SOH and knows a service appointment is not appropriate for this issue.
"Managers told the employees that they were saving Tesla about $1,000 for every canceled appointment, the people said. Another goal was to ease the pressure on service centers, some of which had long waits for appointments."
seems about right. The bit about Elon wanting a BS range display for the Model S rings true tho. Similar to the deceptive "FSD" video from 2016 showing the car stopping at a red light when it couldn't then.
but I've rented Teslas twice now and driven to both Montana and Oregon, and the range displays were fine. Coming from a LEAF, I understand how all this works.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:50 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
The thing about joke names is, it depends on what they are, who uses them, and how ubiquitious they are.
Joke names used by random powerless internet people to refer to elites has long been pretty much impossible to stop, and serves an important role in taking down authority (even if ineffective in real terms).
When the powerful start using them, it becomes yet another instance of punching down. There's also the case where certain names become so ubiquitious, especially when they aren't as clever as the people using them think they are. I'm thinking specifically of "TRump" here, which was never funny, but got used so often on former-birdsite that I started to consider blocking people who said it, if just because they were so unlikely to uter anything actually insightful.
posted by JHarris at 1:56 PM on July 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
Joke names used by random powerless internet people to refer to elites has long been pretty much impossible to stop, and serves an important role in taking down authority (even if ineffective in real terms).
When the powerful start using them, it becomes yet another instance of punching down. There's also the case where certain names become so ubiquitious, especially when they aren't as clever as the people using them think they are. I'm thinking specifically of "TRump" here, which was never funny, but got used so often on former-birdsite that I started to consider blocking people who said it, if just because they were so unlikely to uter anything actually insightful.
posted by JHarris at 1:56 PM on July 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
I submit that maybe these nicknames aren't helpful and are the kind of thing that Donald Trump or George W. Bush do that makes them look like childish morons.
Two people who sat in one of, if not the, most powerful position on earth calling people dumb nicknames =/= to average people on the internet who watch these rich elitists get away with things they couldn't purely because of their inherited power, position, gender and skin color.
*I'm talking about real elitists who see absolutely no commonalities with anyone on the planet who isn't exactly like them.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:06 PM on July 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
As Trademarks are only valid if they are being used in actual commerce; can any of the competitor sites apply for Twitter trademark, calling it an abandoned Trademark?
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:14 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:14 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
but I've rented Teslas twice now and driven to both Montana and Oregon, and the range displays were fine. Coming from a LEAF, I understand how all this works.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:50 PM on July 27
Agree. I so do not want to defend Elon Musk but the impact of cold on battery range is a known thing, and my 2018 Tesla 3 is incredibly accurate at estimating battery charge at my destination, and the range after five years is still around 300 miles. I'm not really sure what the range misinformation was about. The other thing is that Tesla responded pretty fast with software updates to mitigate issues related to cold and charging time. But Tesla service sucks and Elon Musk is generally full of shit and a racist (among other things).
I'm not defending Elon Musk.
posted by bluesky43 at 2:33 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:50 PM on July 27
Agree. I so do not want to defend Elon Musk but the impact of cold on battery range is a known thing, and my 2018 Tesla 3 is incredibly accurate at estimating battery charge at my destination, and the range after five years is still around 300 miles. I'm not really sure what the range misinformation was about. The other thing is that Tesla responded pretty fast with software updates to mitigate issues related to cold and charging time. But Tesla service sucks and Elon Musk is generally full of shit and a racist (among other things).
I'm not defending Elon Musk.
posted by bluesky43 at 2:33 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
“Techbro” is gendered, yes, but not sexist. The structural power differential goes the wrong way. I would hope that by 2023 on Metafilter at least we understand that sexism, like racism, is about structural power differentials, not just differences or personal animus. ‘Sexism’ and ‘discrimination on the basis of sex [or gender]’ are also different terms because, while there is certainly an overlap, they mean different things. (Side note: this is partly why Canada’s more careful language of “discrimination on the basis of membership in a protected class” better enables Canadian human rights law to address sexism, not just differential treatment, while the US Supreme Court has at least the tiniest fig leaf of cover for striking down affirmative action in university admissions.) Reverse sexism, like reverse racism, isn’t a thing.
posted by eviemath at 2:41 PM on July 27, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 2:41 PM on July 27, 2023 [28 favorites]
Melon Husk is my favorite name for Elon Musk.
I feel that this is offensive to The Husk and 90s kids.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:44 PM on July 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
I feel that this is offensive to The Husk and 90s kids.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:44 PM on July 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would just like to note that folks crediting Elon Musk for SpaceX's undeniable success (in ten years flat they've taken more than 50% of the global commercial space launch market, developed the most reliable launcher ever, reached 50% of the mostly-reusable flight rate of the entire Space Shuttle program in just six years without killing any astronauts, etc) ... well, go look up Gwynne Shotwell instead. (COO and President of SpaceX since 2008; arguably much more responsilble for their success than Musk).
I don't know enough about the management of Tesla but I imagine there's someone similar doing the magic behind the curtain ...
posted by cstross at 2:45 PM on July 27, 2023 [27 favorites]
I don't know enough about the management of Tesla but I imagine there's someone similar doing the magic behind the curtain ...
posted by cstross at 2:45 PM on July 27, 2023 [27 favorites]
I think the reason Musk still gets credit at this point, besides being immensely rich and the many advantages direct and indirect that provides, is due to the power of celebrity, and the tendency of people in general, but especially his geek fanboy hordes drunk on cultural narratives of lone wolf heroes, to pick out savior figures. Corporate success can't be the result of a lot of smart people working hard to create something despite long odds and many difficult obstacles, no, it all has to be because of their most obviously visible leader.
There's a tendency (I've certainly seen myself do it) to assign blame or merit to something visible to you. Because, to your eyes, who else could be responsible? Maybe it's a way of coping with how much information is hidden from us, to just assume, if you don't know it, it can't matter.
posted by JHarris at 2:58 PM on July 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
There's a tendency (I've certainly seen myself do it) to assign blame or merit to something visible to you. Because, to your eyes, who else could be responsible? Maybe it's a way of coping with how much information is hidden from us, to just assume, if you don't know it, it can't matter.
posted by JHarris at 2:58 PM on July 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
"1,273 days since Elon Musk advised consumers that Teslas can safely function as a boat for short periods of time. (1/31/2020)"
To be fair, just about anything can safely function as a boat for short periods of time.
posted by bitslayer at 12:13 PM on July 27
And then as a a submarine for an even shorter period of time.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 3:06 PM on July 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
To be fair, just about anything can safely function as a boat for short periods of time.
posted by bitslayer at 12:13 PM on July 27
And then as a a submarine for an even shorter period of time.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 3:06 PM on July 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
Hell, he used one as an unmanned space probe for an indefinite period that continues today!
posted by JHarris at 3:31 PM on July 27, 2023
posted by JHarris at 3:31 PM on July 27, 2023
Apple could (and should!) have seriously applied itself to productize these technologies similarly, but chose to produce some TV shows instead.
Whether it’ll ever see the light of day is still an open question, but is the argument that Apple’s electric car project doesn’t exist, or that it isn’t sufficiently serious?
posted by zamboni at 3:42 PM on July 27, 2023
Whether it’ll ever see the light of day is still an open question, but is the argument that Apple’s electric car project doesn’t exist, or that it isn’t sufficiently serious?
posted by zamboni at 3:42 PM on July 27, 2023
Dilbert Stark?
Both Dilbert and Stark are canonically competent engineers. Musk is more like the pointy-haired boss whose stupid ideas Dilbert has to pretend to implement. Musk and his sycophants have been hyping him for years as "the real life Tony Stark" or the "real life Iron Man."
As much fun as it is to make fun of the comparison to Stark, "Dilbert Stark" sounds like something he'd be proud of. (And of course he's surrounded by people who'll say "Masterful gambit, sir." every time he slams his dick in the car door.)
posted by straight at 3:44 PM on July 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
Both Dilbert and Stark are canonically competent engineers. Musk is more like the pointy-haired boss whose stupid ideas Dilbert has to pretend to implement. Musk and his sycophants have been hyping him for years as "the real life Tony Stark" or the "real life Iron Man."
As much fun as it is to make fun of the comparison to Stark, "Dilbert Stark" sounds like something he'd be proud of. (And of course he's surrounded by people who'll say "Masterful gambit, sir." every time he slams his dick in the car door.)
posted by straight at 3:44 PM on July 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm not really sure what the range misinformation was about.
You could read the article; it gets rather specific as to what it is about, and while it isn't terribly long it is long enough that I probably shouldn't just block-quote the whole thing here but: range estimates are intentionally false, by direct order of Elon, in specific and repeatedly proven ways that do not apply to other BEV manufacturers.
posted by aramaic at 3:59 PM on July 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
You could read the article; it gets rather specific as to what it is about, and while it isn't terribly long it is long enough that I probably shouldn't just block-quote the whole thing here but: range estimates are intentionally false, by direct order of Elon, in specific and repeatedly proven ways that do not apply to other BEV manufacturers.
posted by aramaic at 3:59 PM on July 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
It's so weird to me how people are trying to spin the Tesla range thing as no big deal. It sucks, it's uniquely bad to Tesla, and it comes directly from Elon Musk.
the impact of cold on battery range is a known thing
Hopefully it's known to the engineers at Tesla as well. The car certainly knows the temperature of its battery. Tesla chose not to use that "known thing" to produce a more accurate estimate. As Reuters' reporting discusses, other EVs seem to do a much better job publishing a correct range than Tesla. Also Edmunds testing has uncovered the same problem, a finding that the Reuters article discusses Tesla trying to challenge.
Tesla chose to lie about the range on their cars in the dashboard. They did so because Elon told them to. Then when customers called because their cars weren't getting the range they said they would rather than say "oh, no, everyone knows we're lying in those numbers" the Tesla folks cancelled service appointments without telling the owners what was going on.
There's no good way to spin this. This isn't just gaming the EPA mileage numbers on the sticker at the dealership. This is software designed to lie to its customers because "Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged". Every time a Tesla driver gets in the car, the car misleads them about how much range they have left.
(The weirdest thing to me is the map / trip computer seems to be using more accurate estimates for range. Gosh, why not use the right math everywhere?)
posted by Nelson at 4:02 PM on July 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
the impact of cold on battery range is a known thing
Hopefully it's known to the engineers at Tesla as well. The car certainly knows the temperature of its battery. Tesla chose not to use that "known thing" to produce a more accurate estimate. As Reuters' reporting discusses, other EVs seem to do a much better job publishing a correct range than Tesla. Also Edmunds testing has uncovered the same problem, a finding that the Reuters article discusses Tesla trying to challenge.
Tesla chose to lie about the range on their cars in the dashboard. They did so because Elon told them to. Then when customers called because their cars weren't getting the range they said they would rather than say "oh, no, everyone knows we're lying in those numbers" the Tesla folks cancelled service appointments without telling the owners what was going on.
There's no good way to spin this. This isn't just gaming the EPA mileage numbers on the sticker at the dealership. This is software designed to lie to its customers because "Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged". Every time a Tesla driver gets in the car, the car misleads them about how much range they have left.
(The weirdest thing to me is the map / trip computer seems to be using more accurate estimates for range. Gosh, why not use the right math everywhere?)
posted by Nelson at 4:02 PM on July 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
And then as a a submarine for an even shorter period of time.
One might argue that any car entering the water becomes a submarine, permanently. (Or at least until such time as it is removed from the water)
posted by Mayor West at 4:26 PM on July 27, 2023
One might argue that any car entering the water becomes a submarine, permanently. (Or at least until such time as it is removed from the water)
posted by Mayor West at 4:26 PM on July 27, 2023
To be sure, at some point that submarine will transform into a...marine.
posted by rhizome at 4:33 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 4:33 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
. . . Dilbert Stark? (After racist asshat cartoonist Scott Adams' hapless nerdish self-insert character . . .
A bit of a detour, but since at least the '90s Scott Adams has claimed that he does not identify with Dilbert, he identifies with Dogbert. It says something his casual readers assume he's mildly self-deprecating and writes himself as Dilbert, he thinks he's the smarter-than-it-all Dogbert, and in all his business ventures he's the buzzword happy PHB.
posted by mark k at 4:38 PM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
A bit of a detour, but since at least the '90s Scott Adams has claimed that he does not identify with Dilbert, he identifies with Dogbert. It says something his casual readers assume he's mildly self-deprecating and writes himself as Dilbert, he thinks he's the smarter-than-it-all Dogbert, and in all his business ventures he's the buzzword happy PHB.
posted by mark k at 4:38 PM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
/r/law bans all Twitter links because of danger of CSAM
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:45 PM on July 27, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:45 PM on July 27, 2023 [24 favorites]
This isn't just gaming the EPA mileage numbers on the sticker at the dealership.
Ironically, it would be illegal as hell to game the EPA mileage numbers. Hyundai / Kia agreed to a $350 mil settlement over its manipulation of the EPA mileage numbers, so there have been actual companies who have tried and failed to cheat the EPA.
There is, however, no law against accurately reporting an EPA mileage number for official sales / purchase purposes, but then showing a misleading number on the car's display. I suspect he did it so people could take a photo and brag to their friends about the incredible range their car has. I'll admit to being guilty of this exact thing - I was driving a pretty fuel efficient car from Europe, all cars I've driven calculate range remaining based on an extrapolation of the last X minutes of driving - even though that is WILDLY unrealistic. I filled up the tank, got home and parked, and took a snapshot of my range remaining of over 1000km with a tank that was 95% full.
Like, I know that's impossible. I'll never get 1000km with the fuel remaining, it was just calculated at 1000km because the last 20 minutes of driving was mostly freeway, downhill. (realistically, I'd get about 900km).
Obviously what Tesla did was pretty scummy, but I'm not sure how much the average Tesla owner I know really cares about this. They were the #1 selling vehicle globally in Q1 2023.
posted by xdvesper at 5:01 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ironically, it would be illegal as hell to game the EPA mileage numbers. Hyundai / Kia agreed to a $350 mil settlement over its manipulation of the EPA mileage numbers, so there have been actual companies who have tried and failed to cheat the EPA.
There is, however, no law against accurately reporting an EPA mileage number for official sales / purchase purposes, but then showing a misleading number on the car's display. I suspect he did it so people could take a photo and brag to their friends about the incredible range their car has. I'll admit to being guilty of this exact thing - I was driving a pretty fuel efficient car from Europe, all cars I've driven calculate range remaining based on an extrapolation of the last X minutes of driving - even though that is WILDLY unrealistic. I filled up the tank, got home and parked, and took a snapshot of my range remaining of over 1000km with a tank that was 95% full.
Like, I know that's impossible. I'll never get 1000km with the fuel remaining, it was just calculated at 1000km because the last 20 minutes of driving was mostly freeway, downhill. (realistically, I'd get about 900km).
Obviously what Tesla did was pretty scummy, but I'm not sure how much the average Tesla owner I know really cares about this. They were the #1 selling vehicle globally in Q1 2023.
posted by xdvesper at 5:01 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Elon Muscovy
posted by sudogeek at 5:21 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sudogeek at 5:21 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Disapproval of Elon Musk is top reason Tesla owners are selling, survey says. Musk is one reason I haven't bought a Tesla. Not just because he's an awful person who has destroyed Twitter. I still use Starlink. But because Tesla seems infected with his worst characteristics, including all the vaporware that's the subject of this Metafilter post.
"Full self driving" "autopilot' is a deadly scam. The cars is designed to mislead customers about the battery range. The build quality is shoddy. Etc etc.
For the longest time Tesla was clearly the market leader with few other good options in the US, particularly for a full size nicer car. But that's changing. FWIW I drove a Polestar 2 for a week earlier this year and it seemed pretty good to me.
posted by Nelson at 5:39 PM on July 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
"Full self driving" "autopilot' is a deadly scam. The cars is designed to mislead customers about the battery range. The build quality is shoddy. Etc etc.
For the longest time Tesla was clearly the market leader with few other good options in the US, particularly for a full size nicer car. But that's changing. FWIW I drove a Polestar 2 for a week earlier this year and it seemed pretty good to me.
posted by Nelson at 5:39 PM on July 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
per the above, https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-tesla-survey/elon-musk-brand-analysis/
Watching Rob Mauer's daily update just now, the above study was referenced. Standout graphic is this, showing that of the ~10% of the people saying they wouldn't buy another Tesla, 90% of them don't like Musk all that much now.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:35 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Watching Rob Mauer's daily update just now, the above study was referenced. Standout graphic is this, showing that of the ~10% of the people saying they wouldn't buy another Tesla, 90% of them don't like Musk all that much now.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:35 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
That is one of the most horrendous and confusing "infographics" I have ever seen. What the hell am I looking at?
posted by dsword at 7:04 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dsword at 7:04 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think people are used to Musk overpromising but still impressed with what his companies actually are doing with cars and rockets. Car buyers are pretty used to questionable predictions about what cars will be like in the future, and also comparing the cars that actually exist to find one they want, and we've had decades of overly optimistic predictions about space travel.
Part of the problem with Twitter is that it does allow Musk to tinker with the product instead of just coming up with ideas, because editing social media software is a lot easier and lower stakes than retooling a car or rocket factory. If he just went around proclaiming that one day you'll do your banking and watch movies on Twitter, and that people would be paid to tweet, and Tweetdeck would be modernized, and bot spam would be a thing of the past, I think people would mostly tune it out as almost quaint futurism, the kind of thing software tycoons said on TV in the '90s.
Instead, he's repeatedly changed the rules of how Twitter works overnight, rolled out disconcertingly half-complete changes, and had bizarre public interactions with actual users and advertisers. It's as if you bought a Tesla and came outside one day running late for work and found Elon in the driveway with a toolbox, telling you he replaced your gas pedal with a hand throttle and changed all your radio presets, and the windshield wipers won't turn off but that's definitely only temporary until the motor burns out.
posted by smelendez at 7:07 PM on July 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
Part of the problem with Twitter is that it does allow Musk to tinker with the product instead of just coming up with ideas, because editing social media software is a lot easier and lower stakes than retooling a car or rocket factory. If he just went around proclaiming that one day you'll do your banking and watch movies on Twitter, and that people would be paid to tweet, and Tweetdeck would be modernized, and bot spam would be a thing of the past, I think people would mostly tune it out as almost quaint futurism, the kind of thing software tycoons said on TV in the '90s.
Instead, he's repeatedly changed the rules of how Twitter works overnight, rolled out disconcertingly half-complete changes, and had bizarre public interactions with actual users and advertisers. It's as if you bought a Tesla and came outside one day running late for work and found Elon in the driveway with a toolbox, telling you he replaced your gas pedal with a hand throttle and changed all your radio presets, and the windshield wipers won't turn off but that's definitely only temporary until the motor burns out.
posted by smelendez at 7:07 PM on July 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
>What the hell am I looking at?
Think of it as a Napoleon's March into Russia, but instead . . .
actually, the top colors code current Model 3 owners' like/dislike of Mush, dark red sharing the quite negative opinion of the median Mefite.
Curiously, this division of opinion on Elog damn near matches my general 20-20-20-20-20 appreciation of US politics (20% actively whack, 20% bandwagoning, 20% muddled middle, 20% keeping their head down, and 20% active opposition).
For each color / quintile on the top, follow it vertically to see how they break out on whether they want to get another Tesla (the bottom dark blue being 'hell yes' to the bottom dark red being 'hell no') . . . the correlation is quite striking
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:15 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Think of it as a Napoleon's March into Russia, but instead . . .
actually, the top colors code current Model 3 owners' like/dislike of Mush, dark red sharing the quite negative opinion of the median Mefite.
Curiously, this division of opinion on Elog damn near matches my general 20-20-20-20-20 appreciation of US politics (20% actively whack, 20% bandwagoning, 20% muddled middle, 20% keeping their head down, and 20% active opposition).
For each color / quintile on the top, follow it vertically to see how they break out on whether they want to get another Tesla (the bottom dark blue being 'hell yes' to the bottom dark red being 'hell no') . . . the correlation is quite striking
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:15 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
(for the record, here's my color on the above Elog gradient)
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:34 PM on July 27, 2023
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:34 PM on July 27, 2023
> It's as if you bought a Tesla and came outside one day running late for work and found Elon in the driveway with a toolbox, telling you he replaced your gas pedal with a hand throttle and changed all your radio presets, and the windshield wipers won't turn off but that's definitely only temporary until the motor burns out.
also he’s spraypainted 𝕤𝟛𝕩 𝕨𝟛𝟛𝕕 on the side of your house
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:35 PM on July 27, 2023 [31 favorites]
also he’s spraypainted 𝕤𝟛𝕩 𝕨𝟛𝟛𝕕 on the side of your house
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:35 PM on July 27, 2023 [31 favorites]
One might argue that any car entering the water becomes a submarine, permanently.
Then there's the Beetle.
posted by fairmettle at 9:29 PM on July 27, 2023
Then there's the Beetle.
posted by fairmettle at 9:29 PM on July 27, 2023
to whatever degree SpaceX and Tesla have been run well enough to deliver reasonably functional products and services over the years, it's been because of people other than Musk
Gwynne Shotwell, President and COO of SpaceX, the engineer responsible for day-to-day operations there. She negotiated the Commercial Resupply Services contract that gave the SpaceX its financial foundation. Her time at the helm will be best remembered for breakthoughs in butt-landing reusable launch vehicles which have greatly reduced the cost of putting stuff in space. Also she's a pretty strong argument for nominative determinism.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:06 PM on July 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Gwynne Shotwell, President and COO of SpaceX, the engineer responsible for day-to-day operations there. She negotiated the Commercial Resupply Services contract that gave the SpaceX its financial foundation. Her time at the helm will be best remembered for breakthoughs in butt-landing reusable launch vehicles which have greatly reduced the cost of putting stuff in space. Also she's a pretty strong argument for nominative determinism.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:06 PM on July 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Breakthoughs in butt-landing" is a really good album. Gwynne and the Shotwells is pretty good.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:42 PM on July 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:42 PM on July 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Part of the problem with Twitter is that it does allow Musk to tinker with the product instead of just coming up with ideas
The other part of the problem, for Elno Skum, with Twitter is that it allows the whole world to read in real time whatever idiotic thoughts he had today on the toilet. And it's become painfully obvious that he's Really Not Very Smart.
posted by straight at 12:02 AM on July 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
The other part of the problem, for Elno Skum, with Twitter is that it allows the whole world to read in real time whatever idiotic thoughts he had today on the toilet. And it's become painfully obvious that he's Really Not Very Smart.
posted by straight at 12:02 AM on July 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Elon Musk capitulates: Twitter will default to dark mode, but still offer a light option
Above is today's The Verge headline of their update to their article from yesterday. Musk appears to be leaning heavily into the "all publicity is good publicity" strategy, and the media is wholeheartedly supporting him.
Just say no to clicks.
posted by fairmettle at 12:48 AM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Above is today's The Verge headline of their update to their article from yesterday. Musk appears to be leaning heavily into the "all publicity is good publicity" strategy, and the media is wholeheartedly supporting him.
Just say no to clicks.
posted by fairmettle at 12:48 AM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
If people talk about the bad things Musk is doing, people say no publicity is bad publicity and you shouldn't do that.
If people ignore Musk, then the things he's doing go unremarked upon, become much less known about, and he essentially gets his way without cost.
There is no winning in this, so we might as well keep saying how stupid he's being. At least more people will learn how awful he is, and can make up their own minds.
posted by JHarris at 1:05 AM on July 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
If people ignore Musk, then the things he's doing go unremarked upon, become much less known about, and he essentially gets his way without cost.
There is no winning in this, so we might as well keep saying how stupid he's being. At least more people will learn how awful he is, and can make up their own minds.
posted by JHarris at 1:05 AM on July 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
A "promise" of Elon about his solar roof glass tiles was their resistance to hail. Was claiming baseball/softball size before the product shipped. Now, 1.75 inch hail.
people say no publicity is bad publicity
The people who said that was with respect to entertainment. Products that are supposed to fulfill a task are judged on a different scale.
Missing in that list was the robotaxi and tesla semi convoy mode claims. How many people bought a Tesla believing his 'when you aren't using the car it can be in taxi mode making you money' pitch?
posted by rough ashlar at 2:04 AM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
people say no publicity is bad publicity
The people who said that was with respect to entertainment. Products that are supposed to fulfill a task are judged on a different scale.
Missing in that list was the robotaxi and tesla semi convoy mode claims. How many people bought a Tesla believing his 'when you aren't using the car it can be in taxi mode making you money' pitch?
posted by rough ashlar at 2:04 AM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
The "everything app" that Musk wants to clone was shaped by the desires but also the limitations and constraints of a totalitarian state that don't apply to the US, Europe or much of the rest of the world.
It'll never be as useful or powerful as the thing these apps run on (iOS, Android, ...). Not that China hasn't been trying.
posted by UN at 3:23 AM on July 28, 2023
It'll never be as useful or powerful as the thing these apps run on (iOS, Android, ...). Not that China hasn't been trying.
posted by UN at 3:23 AM on July 28, 2023
Comments like "Elon Musk is a piece of work, but I really like my Tesla!" sound an awful lot like "Donald Trump is an asshole, but my 401k has never been better!"
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:29 AM on July 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:29 AM on July 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
Gwynne Shotwell, President and COO of SpaceX, the engineer responsible for day-to-day operations there.
Mrs Shotwell is amazing, I wonder who hired her?
FWIW I drove a Polestar 2 for a week earlier this year and it seemed pretty good to me.
Would there even be a Polestar or electric F150 or a dozen others without Tesla glamorizing electric cars?
Musk is certainly a wackadoodle and many wish he'd get off social media, but could someone explain the really intense hatred? Henry Ford was a full on antisemite, don't want to research but so many wealthy are problematic, does Carnegie building a bunch of local libraries make up for issues? I just don't get what causes the hot button that riles so many? It's not like Twitter was deeply loved, ever (except by social media marketeers:-)
posted by sammyo at 7:03 AM on July 28, 2023
Mrs Shotwell is amazing, I wonder who hired her?
FWIW I drove a Polestar 2 for a week earlier this year and it seemed pretty good to me.
Would there even be a Polestar or electric F150 or a dozen others without Tesla glamorizing electric cars?
Musk is certainly a wackadoodle and many wish he'd get off social media, but could someone explain the really intense hatred? Henry Ford was a full on antisemite, don't want to research but so many wealthy are problematic, does Carnegie building a bunch of local libraries make up for issues? I just don't get what causes the hot button that riles so many? It's not like Twitter was deeply loved, ever (except by social media marketeers:-)
posted by sammyo at 7:03 AM on July 28, 2023
I can't speak for other people on here but I would definitely not stop at Elon Musk, I'd de-fund all of the billionaires equally.
posted by UN at 7:29 AM on July 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by UN at 7:29 AM on July 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
We have more media-and Elon himself- letting us know every shitty, stupid thing he does. In a time period where people will call out the terrible shit. Ford and Carnegie probably were not heard as much about.
Also, why was it ok to call a complete stranger trying to save lives "pedo guy," and then he got away with it? That's where my hate started.
I WANT to root for space and self driving cars, but the trainwreck way this guy runs things means I cannot. I'm surprised there haven't been more deaths. And I don't even like Twitter,but as others have said, the deliberate, terrible sinking of the product will be taught in business schools for life as what not to do. The fact that he's trashing a product used for emergency notifications in particular is heinous.
I hate three rich dumb celebrities (the ones the Republicans tweeted about awhile back...you know the tweet) more than I ever cared about famous morons because not only are they awful, they are actively destructive to the general population.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:35 AM on July 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Also, why was it ok to call a complete stranger trying to save lives "pedo guy," and then he got away with it? That's where my hate started.
I WANT to root for space and self driving cars, but the trainwreck way this guy runs things means I cannot. I'm surprised there haven't been more deaths. And I don't even like Twitter,but as others have said, the deliberate, terrible sinking of the product will be taught in business schools for life as what not to do. The fact that he's trashing a product used for emergency notifications in particular is heinous.
I hate three rich dumb celebrities (the ones the Republicans tweeted about awhile back...you know the tweet) more than I ever cared about famous morons because not only are they awful, they are actively destructive to the general population.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:35 AM on July 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Musk is certainly a wackadoodle and many wish he'd get off social media, but could someone explain the really intense hatred? Henry Ford was a full on antisemite, don't want to research but so many wealthy are problematic, does Carnegie building a bunch of local libraries make up for issues? I just don't get what causes the hot button that riles so many? It's not like Twitter was deeply loved, ever (except by social media marketeers:-)
Well, first, Henry Ford and Andrew Carnegie are dead. Dead enough not even to be making decomposition squelchy noises.
Second, Musk is one of the dinguses that awful people are always shoving in our faces because the awful people think they're [wile e] sooooooopah geeeeeeeniuses [/wile e]. See also Jordan Peterson and, somehow, Joe Rogan. It would be one thing if Musk were avoidable by just not reading what he says.
It's like, there's lots of shitty music in this world but you might have a particular hate-on for baby shark or let it go if your kids mean that that's what you just can't escape from in your life.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:57 AM on July 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, first, Henry Ford and Andrew Carnegie are dead. Dead enough not even to be making decomposition squelchy noises.
Second, Musk is one of the dinguses that awful people are always shoving in our faces because the awful people think they're [wile e] sooooooopah geeeeeeeniuses [/wile e]. See also Jordan Peterson and, somehow, Joe Rogan. It would be one thing if Musk were avoidable by just not reading what he says.
It's like, there's lots of shitty music in this world but you might have a particular hate-on for baby shark or let it go if your kids mean that that's what you just can't escape from in your life.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:57 AM on July 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Why did people hate Trump so much while he was President compared to past dead leaders?
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:04 AM on July 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:04 AM on July 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Musk is certainly a wackadoodle
I've only deployed 'wackadoodle' to describe something a young nephew might do.. the word is kind of fun to say, and I've always thought there should be fun connotations to what it describes
for the life of me I can't think of any fun connotations to what Elon Musk represents these past few years. if you need a single reason, it's the wealth. it's the obscenely disproportionate wealth, and the way he is using that wealth to do destructive things.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:13 AM on July 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
I've only deployed 'wackadoodle' to describe something a young nephew might do.. the word is kind of fun to say, and I've always thought there should be fun connotations to what it describes
for the life of me I can't think of any fun connotations to what Elon Musk represents these past few years. if you need a single reason, it's the wealth. it's the obscenely disproportionate wealth, and the way he is using that wealth to do destructive things.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:13 AM on July 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also, why was it ok to call a complete stranger trying to save lives "pedo guy," and then he got away with it? That's where my hate started.
A perfect illustration of where an accusation is actually a confession, particularly in light of him personally announcing reinstating the account of a user who had posted child porn. (Whereas posting the infamous photo of Musk palling around with Ghislaine Maxwell gets you immediately irrevocably banninated.) I know some can't help but be starry-eyed about "ooo, electric cars! the FUTURE!" but stanning for a guy who's actively encouraging his platform to be used as a conduit for bigotry, fascism, and the distribution of CSAM? "Oh Elon, so lovably controversial!" ain't gonna cut it.
posted by hangashore at 8:14 AM on July 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
A perfect illustration of where an accusation is actually a confession, particularly in light of him personally announcing reinstating the account of a user who had posted child porn. (Whereas posting the infamous photo of Musk palling around with Ghislaine Maxwell gets you immediately irrevocably banninated.) I know some can't help but be starry-eyed about "ooo, electric cars! the FUTURE!" but stanning for a guy who's actively encouraging his platform to be used as a conduit for bigotry, fascism, and the distribution of CSAM? "Oh Elon, so lovably controversial!" ain't gonna cut it.
posted by hangashore at 8:14 AM on July 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Musk once tweeted the premise of the film Idiocracy to support his belief that the world is vastly underpopulated.
posted by Brian B. at 8:17 AM on July 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 8:17 AM on July 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
It all comes back to the post's title: Elon Musk is Donald Trump, but for nerds.
They're both incredibly thin-skinned, fragile individuals who will utilize whatever resources they have available to settle personal grudges. They both have the kind of privilege that let's them say or do anything they want without any harm to their reputation or loss of "respectability". They both have legions of stans who will defend them against the slightest bit of criticism.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:27 AM on July 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
They're both incredibly thin-skinned, fragile individuals who will utilize whatever resources they have available to settle personal grudges. They both have the kind of privilege that let's them say or do anything they want without any harm to their reputation or loss of "respectability". They both have legions of stans who will defend them against the slightest bit of criticism.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:27 AM on July 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
See also Jordan Peterson and, somehow, Joe Rogan. It would be one thing if Musk were avoidable by just not reading what he says.
It's like, there's lots of shitty music in this world but you might have a particular hate-on for baby shark or let it go if your kids mean that that's what you just can't escape from in your life.
I really have no idea what Jordan Peterson says. I occasionally hear something about Joe Rogan, but mostly I can ignore him. Elon, on the other hand, is everywhere, like a rash.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:07 AM on July 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's like, there's lots of shitty music in this world but you might have a particular hate-on for baby shark or let it go if your kids mean that that's what you just can't escape from in your life.
I really have no idea what Jordan Peterson says. I occasionally hear something about Joe Rogan, but mostly I can ignore him. Elon, on the other hand, is everywhere, like a rash.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:07 AM on July 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Would there even be a Polestar or electric F150 or a dozen others without Tesla glamorizing electric cars?
yes. electric cars are superior enough that somebody would have expanded into this space by now. Tesla probably sped this up by 2-3 years, but the USA has had the $7500 EV tax credit for quite some time already. It's not glamor that sells EVs, it's the utility (and cost savings vs ICE).
As for Elon hatred, I was neutral on Musk until the Twitter takeover heel turn. I'd already blocked him last year on Twitter due to increasingly flakey opinions, including this particularly egregious one.
Twitter under the previous governance was, to some extent at least, fighting the good fight against organized disinformation and hostile speech.
Musk bought Twitter to eliminate all that and make it a safe space for the Alt Right again. F--- that noise.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:06 AM on July 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
yes. electric cars are superior enough that somebody would have expanded into this space by now. Tesla probably sped this up by 2-3 years, but the USA has had the $7500 EV tax credit for quite some time already. It's not glamor that sells EVs, it's the utility (and cost savings vs ICE).
As for Elon hatred, I was neutral on Musk until the Twitter takeover heel turn. I'd already blocked him last year on Twitter due to increasingly flakey opinions, including this particularly egregious one.
Twitter under the previous governance was, to some extent at least, fighting the good fight against organized disinformation and hostile speech.
Musk bought Twitter to eliminate all that and make it a safe space for the Alt Right again. F--- that noise.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:06 AM on July 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Comments like "Elon Musk is a piece of work, but I really like my Tesla!" sound an awful lot like "Donald Trump is an asshole, but my 401k has never been better!"
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:29 AM on July 28
No. the only thing Donald Trump jumpstarted was trying to turn the US into a totalitarian state. It's not the same at all. I'm not, repeat NOT a Musk apologist. I abhor him for all of the reasons people have mentioned but also for very very personal family reasons. Nevertheless, Tesla as was mentioned above jumpstarted EV use. What Musk had to do with that who knows.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:42 AM on July 28, 2023
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:29 AM on July 28
No. the only thing Donald Trump jumpstarted was trying to turn the US into a totalitarian state. It's not the same at all. I'm not, repeat NOT a Musk apologist. I abhor him for all of the reasons people have mentioned but also for very very personal family reasons. Nevertheless, Tesla as was mentioned above jumpstarted EV use. What Musk had to do with that who knows.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:42 AM on July 28, 2023
No. the only thing Donald Trump jumpstarted was trying to turn the US into a totalitarian state. It's not the same at all.
Musk uses his wealth and fame to fund and give support to fascists who want to turn the US into a totalitarian state — including Donald Trump.
They're not the same but they share a common goal.
posted by UN at 10:51 AM on July 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Musk uses his wealth and fame to fund and give support to fascists who want to turn the US into a totalitarian state — including Donald Trump.
They're not the same but they share a common goal.
posted by UN at 10:51 AM on July 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Elon, on the other hand, is everywhere, like a rash.
It's like the world has a bad case of Elon Thrush.
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's like the world has a bad case of Elon Thrush.
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
yes. electric cars are superior enough that somebody would have expanded into this space by now. Tesla probably sped this up by 2-3 years, but the USA has had the $7500 EV tax credit for quite some time already. It's not glamor that sells EVs, it's the utility (and cost savings vs ICE).
No. Tesla Model Y is top 10 in sales in the US and the Model 3 is just outside the top 10. No other fully electric car is anywhere close. Most popular car #25 (Honda Civic) sold 130k cars, so less than that. That's what Tesla has done for electric cars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:29 AM on July 28, 2023
No. Tesla Model Y is top 10 in sales in the US and the Model 3 is just outside the top 10. No other fully electric car is anywhere close. Most popular car #25 (Honda Civic) sold 130k cars, so less than that. That's what Tesla has done for electric cars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:29 AM on July 28, 2023
I just found it: Ford Mustang Mach E is the #3 fully electric car, with 40k in sales, and it barely outsold the Model S. So Chevy Bolt + Tesla Model S + Ford Mustang Mach E + Tesla Model X ~= Telsa Model 3 sales.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:36 AM on July 28, 2023
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:36 AM on July 28, 2023
Tesla's dominance in the US is somewhat unique to this country. Europe has a different story. And it's completely different in China. This isn't just an accident; Tesla designed cars for the American market. By European standards the Tesla cars are huge.
I don't want to discount Tesla's innovations, particularly in the American market. But they are not unique. SpaceX however, that might be uniquely successful. (Neuralink and Boring are unique but irrelevant. SolarCity was far from unique, a scam, and still a disaster in the form of Tesla Solar.)
posted by Nelson at 11:46 AM on July 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't want to discount Tesla's innovations, particularly in the American market. But they are not unique. SpaceX however, that might be uniquely successful. (Neuralink and Boring are unique but irrelevant. SolarCity was far from unique, a scam, and still a disaster in the form of Tesla Solar.)
posted by Nelson at 11:46 AM on July 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
electric cars are superior enough that somebody would have expanded into this space by now.
Electric cars are superior enough that one of the major manufacturers should have done so by now even in the absence of Tesla.
But just because making electric cars would be good for the company doesn't mean that the people who make decisions for the company would have done it. Doesn't mean that the plans to do so would have gotten through internal bureaucracy and internal factional fights.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:01 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Electric cars are superior enough that one of the major manufacturers should have done so by now even in the absence of Tesla.
But just because making electric cars would be good for the company doesn't mean that the people who make decisions for the company would have done it. Doesn't mean that the plans to do so would have gotten through internal bureaucracy and internal factional fights.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:01 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
No. the only thing Donald Trump jumpstarted was trying to turn the US into a totalitarian state. It's not the same at all.
Donald Trump really really liked bragging about how much the markets were up. In the first year of his term, he bragged on average once every 35 hours. And there are lots of voters who are willing to look past all those authoritarian tendencies so long as the line keeps going up.
And this is why I drew he comparison with Musk because he enjoys a lot of support from people who are happy to look past what a dumpster fire he is as a person as long as Tesla (and to a slightly lesser extent SpaceX) keeps innovating. That's why no criticism of him can go without being rebutted by someone saying "but he jumpstarted EVs!" or "he pioneered reusable rockets!"
I think it's surprising Trump hasn't tried to set up a space company. I think there are enough techbros out there that would look the other way if it meant more geeky things like space missions.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:07 PM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Donald Trump really really liked bragging about how much the markets were up. In the first year of his term, he bragged on average once every 35 hours. And there are lots of voters who are willing to look past all those authoritarian tendencies so long as the line keeps going up.
And this is why I drew he comparison with Musk because he enjoys a lot of support from people who are happy to look past what a dumpster fire he is as a person as long as Tesla (and to a slightly lesser extent SpaceX) keeps innovating. That's why no criticism of him can go without being rebutted by someone saying "but he jumpstarted EVs!" or "he pioneered reusable rockets!"
I think it's surprising Trump hasn't tried to set up a space company. I think there are enough techbros out there that would look the other way if it meant more geeky things like space missions.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:07 PM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
> RonButNotStupid: "I think it's surprising Trump hasn't tried to set up a space company."
Not a space company, but a Space Force. Every few months I have to re-learn that this is a real branch of the US armed forces and not just, like, an SNL gag or something because my brain refuses to retain this information.
posted by mhum at 12:51 PM on July 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Not a space company, but a Space Force. Every few months I have to re-learn that this is a real branch of the US armed forces and not just, like, an SNL gag or something because my brain refuses to retain this information.
posted by mhum at 12:51 PM on July 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Apple could (and should!) have seriously applied itself to productize these technologies similarly, but chose to produce some TV shows instead.
To give credit where it due they are mostly excellent TV shows and I am not a Apple fanboy at all. Apple is probably the most consistent high quality TV producer right now. It won't save the planet but it will make existence just a little more bearable for a lot of people.
posted by srboisvert at 1:51 PM on July 28, 2023
To give credit where it due they are mostly excellent TV shows and I am not a Apple fanboy at all. Apple is probably the most consistent high quality TV producer right now. It won't save the planet but it will make existence just a little more bearable for a lot of people.
posted by srboisvert at 1:51 PM on July 28, 2023
a Space Force. Every few months I have to re-learn that this is a real branch of the US armed forces
They should have just called it the US Spacy with the following rank structure
They should have just called it the US Spacy with the following rank structure
E-1 Spaceman Trainee E-4 Senior Spaceman E-7 Boss Spergeant E-2 Asst Spaceman E-5 Lesser Spergeant E-8 King Spergeant E-3 Spaceman E-6 Spergeant E-9 Master Chief O-1 Asst Spieutenant O-4 Spajor O-7 Spommander O-2 Spieutenant O-5 Spieutenant Spolonel O-8 Vice Spadmiral O-3 Spaptain O-6 Spolonel O-9 Spadmiralposted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:54 PM on July 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Think of it as a Napoleon's March into Russia, but instead . . .
No need for me to think about it. I see it on my wall every time I walk into my living room. But the graph you linked is... not that. Honestly, just one of my pet peeves where the current fashion is to create complex graphics that defy quantitative interpretation in favor of... a simple bar chart or maybe even a heat map.
posted by dsword at 2:26 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
No need for me to think about it. I see it on my wall every time I walk into my living room. But the graph you linked is... not that. Honestly, just one of my pet peeves where the current fashion is to create complex graphics that defy quantitative interpretation in favor of... a simple bar chart or maybe even a heat map.
posted by dsword at 2:26 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
No. Tesla Model Y is top 10 in sales in the US and the Model 3 is just outside the top 10. No other fully electric car is anywhere close.
That's cool, but there are a whole bunch of other players now and some of them are absolutely destroying Tesla's growth numbers. Tesla certainly started and led the "cool" EV segment for a time, but that time is probably drawing to a close.
It's honestly a bit weird and sad to care this much about it, though. Don't worry! Sure, Elon has made fashy edgelord his brand, but all the automakers are led by assholes. You're spoiled for choice!
posted by klanawa at 5:13 PM on July 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's cool, but there are a whole bunch of other players now and some of them are absolutely destroying Tesla's growth numbers. Tesla certainly started and led the "cool" EV segment for a time, but that time is probably drawing to a close.
It's honestly a bit weird and sad to care this much about it, though. Don't worry! Sure, Elon has made fashy edgelord his brand, but all the automakers are led by assholes. You're spoiled for choice!
posted by klanawa at 5:13 PM on July 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
>absolutely destroying Tesla's growth numbers
don't confuse % BEV share with % of total light vehicles (well feel free but you're going to miss the forest for the trees if you do that)
https://insideevs.com/news/678062/tesla-market-share-us-canada-2023q2/
going from 3% to 4% is +33% YOY growth; at any rate, 2030's BEV market is big enough for everyone!
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:40 PM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
don't confuse % BEV share with % of total light vehicles (well feel free but you're going to miss the forest for the trees if you do that)
https://insideevs.com/news/678062/tesla-market-share-us-canada-2023q2/
going from 3% to 4% is +33% YOY growth; at any rate, 2030's BEV market is big enough for everyone!
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:40 PM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
>Tesla certainly started and led the "cool" EV segment for a time, but that time is probably drawing to a close.
I drove my rental Model 3 up to Yosemite and back today, and it was a ton of fun. I'm a big Apple fanatic and if you were to bonk me on the head hard enough and then tell me Apple had made this car I'd believe you.
I'm not even a big 4-door sedan guy, I'd much prefer an electric 2-door sport coupe, especially that concept car Mazda rolled out recently.
Back last decade I didn't buy any TSLA since I too bought the CW that competition was going to step up their games and crowd Tesla out.
Problem is, the competition totally sucks and can't fix itself.
GM has tried – Saturn, the EV1 (sold through CA and AZ Saturn dealers ironically enough), the Volt, the Bolt . . . but they are terminally lame.
Ford is trying but has issues.
I don't know WTH Stellantis is doing. The Koreans are bit players in CA, with all of 1,000/mo sales here:
https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales
Toyota under Toyoda had been whistling past the graveyard for a decade now. VW fired their pro-EV CEO and is conflicted about EVs apparently.
Rivian has a good growth story but will be a rounding error on Tesla sales this decade. BMW and Mercedes might have some competent offerings coming out but they are happy being niche 2M/yr luxury makes.
Honda, Nissan, Mazda haven't made any compelling BEVs yet. LEAF was a great start in 2010 but had zero follow-through for some reason.
Shorter me: the bigger the legacy maker, the lamer their BEV story is, basically.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:55 PM on July 28, 2023
I drove my rental Model 3 up to Yosemite and back today, and it was a ton of fun. I'm a big Apple fanatic and if you were to bonk me on the head hard enough and then tell me Apple had made this car I'd believe you.
I'm not even a big 4-door sedan guy, I'd much prefer an electric 2-door sport coupe, especially that concept car Mazda rolled out recently.
Back last decade I didn't buy any TSLA since I too bought the CW that competition was going to step up their games and crowd Tesla out.
Problem is, the competition totally sucks and can't fix itself.
GM has tried – Saturn, the EV1 (sold through CA and AZ Saturn dealers ironically enough), the Volt, the Bolt . . . but they are terminally lame.
Ford is trying but has issues.
I don't know WTH Stellantis is doing. The Koreans are bit players in CA, with all of 1,000/mo sales here:
https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales
Toyota under Toyoda had been whistling past the graveyard for a decade now. VW fired their pro-EV CEO and is conflicted about EVs apparently.
Rivian has a good growth story but will be a rounding error on Tesla sales this decade. BMW and Mercedes might have some competent offerings coming out but they are happy being niche 2M/yr luxury makes.
Honda, Nissan, Mazda haven't made any compelling BEVs yet. LEAF was a great start in 2010 but had zero follow-through for some reason.
Shorter me: the bigger the legacy maker, the lamer their BEV story is, basically.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:55 PM on July 28, 2023
Tesla has been exaggerating its vehicles' potential driving distance for years by rigging their range-estimating software, report says
Worse fraud than doing it on a gas model, because one needs to plan for a charge stop. All those EPA comparisons that show EV was usually better are now suspect.
posted by Brian B. at 6:06 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Worse fraud than doing it on a gas model, because one needs to plan for a charge stop. All those EPA comparisons that show EV was usually better are now suspect.
posted by Brian B. at 6:06 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
"but he jumpstarted EVs!"
Elog was the only CEO who had the willingness and the executive oomph to bet the company on BEV.
German and Korean automaker employee unions are not the biggest fans of the BEV future.
his biggest aid was all the regulatory credits earned from the ex-NUMMI plant's tiny output that he plowed back into the Shanghai, Berlin, and Austin plant ramps.
I've been driving LEAFs here in CA for over 10 years now so I've had a front-row seat on the industry evolution here.
Outside of Tesla's operations, everybody else has been just so . . . under-enthusiastic . . . about BEVs.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:14 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Elog was the only CEO who had the willingness and the executive oomph to bet the company on BEV.
German and Korean automaker employee unions are not the biggest fans of the BEV future.
his biggest aid was all the regulatory credits earned from the ex-NUMMI plant's tiny output that he plowed back into the Shanghai, Berlin, and Austin plant ramps.
I've been driving LEAFs here in CA for over 10 years now so I've had a front-row seat on the industry evolution here.
Outside of Tesla's operations, everybody else has been just so . . . under-enthusiastic . . . about BEVs.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:14 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Brian B, that BI article is a repeat of the Reuters article from yesterday, which happens to end with:
Again, this morning I charged up the rental Model 3 for a 200 mile trip up to Yosemite and back, with a planned charge in Oakhurst on the way back. The car navigation was perfectly reliable on this, including the 9,000' elevation gain. I have a 400 mile round-trip to the coast tomorrow, and will be able to rely on the navigation to charger functionality fine, same as the trip to Montana I made in 2021 and a trip to Oregon I made last month.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:20 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
After doing more research into range estimates, he said he ultimately concluded there is nothing wrong with his car. The problem, he said, was that Tesla is overstating its performance. He believes Tesla “should be a lot more explicit about the variation in the range,” especially in very cold weather.I mean, can you get more "nothingburger" than that??
“I do love my Tesla,” the engineer said. “But I have just tempered my expectation of what it can do in certain conditions.”
Again, this morning I charged up the rental Model 3 for a 200 mile trip up to Yosemite and back, with a planned charge in Oakhurst on the way back. The car navigation was perfectly reliable on this, including the 9,000' elevation gain. I have a 400 mile round-trip to the coast tomorrow, and will be able to rely on the navigation to charger functionality fine, same as the trip to Montana I made in 2021 and a trip to Oregon I made last month.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:20 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel it's important to note that Elon Musk is a prominent and vocal anti-trans bigot. So I don't really give a flying fluorescent fuck how cool his cars may be; he'll get neither a kind word nor a red cent from me until he stops calling for my death.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:05 PM on July 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:05 PM on July 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
Outside of Tesla's operations, everybody else has been just so . . . under-enthusiastic . . . about BEVs.
Heywood Mogroot III - I'm pretty confident there would be barely any EV market today without Tesla.
Watch the Munroe teardowns comparing the wiring architecture or cooling systems in the Tesla vs other carmakers. Tesla is years and years ahead of anyone else in building affordable and profitable EV vehicles. Model 3 and Model Y have about 1.5km of wiring. Jim Farley is on the record saying the Mustang has 1.6 km of unnecessary wiring in it - you can infer that it has about double the wiring cost and weight (copper is expensive).
Munroe compares the thermal systems and shows the Mach-E thermal system has 3x the length of hoses, 3x as many parts, and 2x the weight compared to the Tesla - and exclaims that the Mach-E thermal system is in fact the 2nd best thermal system he's seen IN THE WORLD because all the other manufacturers are actually worse. Not sure if he makes this comment in this video or another one, he has several videos on this topic.
How is Tesla almost twice as efficient as other automakers in almost every part of the vehicle despite being a startup, and how have they maintained and even widened that advantage for the past 10 years? This is like asking why none of the other chipmakers can catch up to Intel, ARM, or NVIDIA, despite having 10-20 years to learn from them. Sometimes when you're ahead, you just get more ahead. Same thing with Google, or Facebook. That's why the Tesla share price is so high. You know how there aren't 10 different computer chip makers, or 10 different mobile phone chip makers, because the rest all died out? Then why do we have 30-40 automakers worldwide? The likely prediction is that 90% of them will die and maybe Tesla + 2 other automakers will remain.
Your pricing is constrained by your competitors. Everyone has to price match Tesla. But if your costs are significantly more, then you're going to making huge losses (Ford's EV division sold 12,000 vehicles and lost $700 mil in Q1 2023). Tesla has good margins - actually, they might be the best in the industry - and it's a no brainer to just go crazy building new Gigafactories all over the world. If your business equation says you're making a loss, you'll probably build just one factory and produce limited volumes, then use it as a learning experience and try to figure out how to get the cost down with the next generation.
If you ignore the engineering and just look purely at sales volumes and profit / loss margins, this also tells a consistent story - other automakers are roughly where Tesla was in 2015, where they built about 50,000 units and lost about $900 mil in total over the full year.
Which implies other automakers will only start getting a profit positive design and ramp up production volumes similar to Tesla's current levels by about 2030 - IF Tesla's current design remains static and they don't uncover new efficiencies. If Tesla gets more ahead by 2030, then other manufacturers will simply go bankrupt.
There are a number of future innovations that Tesla is pursuing to stay ahead of the competition. Many of them never panned about, but that's that's the nature of innovation - you try 10 ideas, 9 of them fail. Structural Battery. Unboxed Assembly. Mega Casting. There was even a new wiring architecture that would take wiring down to just 100 meters.
posted by xdvesper at 7:56 PM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Heywood Mogroot III - I'm pretty confident there would be barely any EV market today without Tesla.
Watch the Munroe teardowns comparing the wiring architecture or cooling systems in the Tesla vs other carmakers. Tesla is years and years ahead of anyone else in building affordable and profitable EV vehicles. Model 3 and Model Y have about 1.5km of wiring. Jim Farley is on the record saying the Mustang has 1.6 km of unnecessary wiring in it - you can infer that it has about double the wiring cost and weight (copper is expensive).
Munroe compares the thermal systems and shows the Mach-E thermal system has 3x the length of hoses, 3x as many parts, and 2x the weight compared to the Tesla - and exclaims that the Mach-E thermal system is in fact the 2nd best thermal system he's seen IN THE WORLD because all the other manufacturers are actually worse. Not sure if he makes this comment in this video or another one, he has several videos on this topic.
How is Tesla almost twice as efficient as other automakers in almost every part of the vehicle despite being a startup, and how have they maintained and even widened that advantage for the past 10 years? This is like asking why none of the other chipmakers can catch up to Intel, ARM, or NVIDIA, despite having 10-20 years to learn from them. Sometimes when you're ahead, you just get more ahead. Same thing with Google, or Facebook. That's why the Tesla share price is so high. You know how there aren't 10 different computer chip makers, or 10 different mobile phone chip makers, because the rest all died out? Then why do we have 30-40 automakers worldwide? The likely prediction is that 90% of them will die and maybe Tesla + 2 other automakers will remain.
Your pricing is constrained by your competitors. Everyone has to price match Tesla. But if your costs are significantly more, then you're going to making huge losses (Ford's EV division sold 12,000 vehicles and lost $700 mil in Q1 2023). Tesla has good margins - actually, they might be the best in the industry - and it's a no brainer to just go crazy building new Gigafactories all over the world. If your business equation says you're making a loss, you'll probably build just one factory and produce limited volumes, then use it as a learning experience and try to figure out how to get the cost down with the next generation.
If you ignore the engineering and just look purely at sales volumes and profit / loss margins, this also tells a consistent story - other automakers are roughly where Tesla was in 2015, where they built about 50,000 units and lost about $900 mil in total over the full year.
Which implies other automakers will only start getting a profit positive design and ramp up production volumes similar to Tesla's current levels by about 2030 - IF Tesla's current design remains static and they don't uncover new efficiencies. If Tesla gets more ahead by 2030, then other manufacturers will simply go bankrupt.
There are a number of future innovations that Tesla is pursuing to stay ahead of the competition. Many of them never panned about, but that's that's the nature of innovation - you try 10 ideas, 9 of them fail. Structural Battery. Unboxed Assembly. Mega Casting. There was even a new wiring architecture that would take wiring down to just 100 meters.
posted by xdvesper at 7:56 PM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
he'll get neither a kind word nor a red cent from me
But, but, but the cars! The cars are cool and also super-important! Surely you see how cool cars and white supremacist techbros are more important than your continued existence, right? C’mon, cool cars! They’re literally the most important thing besides maybe a bloodsport that involves cool cars!
S3XY! Nothing better nor more clever!
posted by aramaic at 9:50 PM on July 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
But, but, but the cars! The cars are cool and also super-important! Surely you see how cool cars and white supremacist techbros are more important than your continued existence, right? C’mon, cool cars! They’re literally the most important thing besides maybe a bloodsport that involves cool cars!
S3XY! Nothing better nor more clever!
posted by aramaic at 9:50 PM on July 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
don't confuse % BEV share with % of total light vehicles
I didn't.
posted by klanawa at 10:14 PM on July 28, 2023
I didn't.
posted by klanawa at 10:14 PM on July 28, 2023
The Koreans are bit players in CA, with all of 1,000/mo sales here:
As long as there's a market there's a market?
Kia and Hyundai have tons of electric models that are 1000% more interesting. No 2DR, but Hyundai has a much better minimal dash and KIA even has vegan leather options. I've also heard that the Korean companies have much better phone, etc. integration.
I've also been seeing a LOT of e-BMWs over the past few months, and increasing noticeably, and I spend a lot of time in a city that seems like it's 25% Tesla.
I can't figure out if I'm stepping on the discussion, but I really don't see any reason to give Elon money, even if they have less wiring or whatever. The TV dash still sucks and they have auto-highbeams (SUPER-genius!) that don't work well and suck for anybody driving toward one.
posted by rhizome at 12:01 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
As long as there's a market there's a market?
Kia and Hyundai have tons of electric models that are 1000% more interesting. No 2DR, but Hyundai has a much better minimal dash and KIA even has vegan leather options. I've also heard that the Korean companies have much better phone, etc. integration.
I've also been seeing a LOT of e-BMWs over the past few months, and increasing noticeably, and I spend a lot of time in a city that seems like it's 25% Tesla.
I can't figure out if I'm stepping on the discussion, but I really don't see any reason to give Elon money, even if they have less wiring or whatever. The TV dash still sucks and they have auto-highbeams (SUPER-genius!) that don't work well and suck for anybody driving toward one.
posted by rhizome at 12:01 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why do people go so far to defend Musk's contributions even while sometimes acknowledging what a problematic dumbass he is?
So what if Tesla created the current market for EVs? Time moves on, and now lots of other people have jumped into that market and there are better options from companies that aren't micromanaged by transphoboic, fascist, edgelords dumbasses.
No one says things like "If it wasn't for IBM, there wouldn't be such a huge market for PCs". The market has moved on, and Tesla's no longer special.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:50 AM on July 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
So what if Tesla created the current market for EVs? Time moves on, and now lots of other people have jumped into that market and there are better options from companies that aren't micromanaged by transphoboic, fascist, edgelords dumbasses.
No one says things like "If it wasn't for IBM, there wouldn't be such a huge market for PCs". The market has moved on, and Tesla's no longer special.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:50 AM on July 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Structural Battery. Unboxed Assembly. Mega Casting.
Miles Bron heard the last one as "MAGA casting" and liked it so much he brought it with him to Twitter.
posted by flabdablet at 6:19 AM on July 29, 2023
Miles Bron heard the last one as "MAGA casting" and liked it so much he brought it with him to Twitter.
posted by flabdablet at 6:19 AM on July 29, 2023
Why do people go so far to defend Musk's contributions
I think some people feel some kind of respect for the one genuine skill he has, which is shameless huckstering. He really works that cult-of-personality angle.
Plus, billionaire personality disorder always has been at least a little bit contagious.
posted by flabdablet at 6:26 AM on July 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think some people feel some kind of respect for the one genuine skill he has, which is shameless huckstering. He really works that cult-of-personality angle.
Plus, billionaire personality disorder always has been at least a little bit contagious.
posted by flabdablet at 6:26 AM on July 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
The NYT has a (heretofore) underreported story on just how effectively Starlink has wormed its way into the defense industry, not only of the US, but Ukraine as well. Given the mercurial nature of Musk's personality, it's a bit unnerving to think that he could effectively disconnect a country from the internet on a whim.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:43 AM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:43 AM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
there are a whole bunch of other players now and some of them are absolutely destroying Tesla's growth numbersthis isn't present in the data yet
Tesla's China growth story may be played out due to BEV competitors and it is indeed possible this will be repeated this decade in other markets.
But as for the legacy makers, they are currently somewhat hopeless. This even extends to their ICE lines . . . 30 years ago there was a wide array of great cars to buy, now what I see is big & boring.
>there are better options from companies that aren't micromanaged by transphoboic, fascist, edgelords dumbasses
I wish that were so! I'll have to wait until 2025 until the industry starts shipping NACS-equipped cars. CCS-1 vs NACS is a relatively small thing but typical of the lack of effort the legacy makers made with their current generation BEVs.
Here are the BEV alternatives with more than 30 sales in Q1 in my county (Tesla sold 380 3 &Y):
- Bolt EV (cancelled by GM in April, now going to be replaced or something)
- BMW i4 (doesn't qualify for the $7500 IRA credit)
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:12 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
30 years ago there was a wide array of great cars to buy, now what I see is big & boring.
Have you considered that maybe there just isn't a wide array of great cars for you to buy and maybe your tastes aren't universal?
That's what's kind of irritating about all these defenses of Tesla in light of Musk: are Tesla cars really that much more advanced than say a Nissan Leaf or a Hyundai Ioniq to justify not only looking past Musk's behavior, but also maintaining a weird reverence and respect for him?
Because sometimes it sounds like a bunch of very privileged people trying not only to justify their purchase of an EV made by a fascist, but also normalize that particular EV as somehow being the base minimum standard for all EVs. "I couldn't help buying it--all the other EVs just suck. Only Musk for all his faults knows how to make a proper EV"
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:24 AM on July 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Have you considered that maybe there just isn't a wide array of great cars for you to buy and maybe your tastes aren't universal?
That's what's kind of irritating about all these defenses of Tesla in light of Musk: are Tesla cars really that much more advanced than say a Nissan Leaf or a Hyundai Ioniq to justify not only looking past Musk's behavior, but also maintaining a weird reverence and respect for him?
Because sometimes it sounds like a bunch of very privileged people trying not only to justify their purchase of an EV made by a fascist, but also normalize that particular EV as somehow being the base minimum standard for all EVs. "I couldn't help buying it--all the other EVs just suck. Only Musk for all his faults knows how to make a proper EV"
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:24 AM on July 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
The Western-centric nature of Metafilter really limits this kind of discussion. The world's largest manufacturer of EVs isn't even mentioned in any comment here. I posted some statistics broken out by region before, here's a couple of takes on global stats. Counterpoint charts, InsideEVs writeup. Note these both consider plug-in hybrids as well, not just battery EVs (Tesla's market).
Back to the original topic, Musk's empty promises. He made a lot of promises about Tesla. Some have been fulfilled, like that they'd be a large manufacturer of EVs. Huge success! Others have not. The continuing false advertising around "Full Self Driving" is the one that sticks in my craw the most.
posted by Nelson at 8:26 AM on July 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Back to the original topic, Musk's empty promises. He made a lot of promises about Tesla. Some have been fulfilled, like that they'd be a large manufacturer of EVs. Huge success! Others have not. The continuing false advertising around "Full Self Driving" is the one that sticks in my craw the most.
posted by Nelson at 8:26 AM on July 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Given the mercurial nature of Musk's personality, it's a bit unnerving to think that he could effectively disconnect a country from the internet on a whim.
...or just quietly provide details of military operations and usage to a certain other nation. Doesn't need to be recorded conversations or actual data transfers, just location and connection data tied to unique communications devices would be incredibly valuable to an interested party. Given that Starlink has so selflessly and generously provided free access to Ukraine, I imagine Musk would feel well within his rights to use the metadata for whatever 'peaceful' purposes as he sees fit (all in the interests of 'fairness' and 'transparency' of course).
posted by hangashore at 8:27 AM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
...or just quietly provide details of military operations and usage to a certain other nation. Doesn't need to be recorded conversations or actual data transfers, just location and connection data tied to unique communications devices would be incredibly valuable to an interested party. Given that Starlink has so selflessly and generously provided free access to Ukraine, I imagine Musk would feel well within his rights to use the metadata for whatever 'peaceful' purposes as he sees fit (all in the interests of 'fairness' and 'transparency' of course).
posted by hangashore at 8:27 AM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
>Only Musk for all his faults knows how to make a proper EV
Per the above infographic, most people who say they dislike/detest Musk still plan on sticking with Tesla, but 90% of those who want a different car dislike or detest Musk. Basically Musk's recent idiocy is the #1 driver of customer dissatisfaction, sigh.
It is increasingly clear to me that the legacy makers are going to have a hard time giving up ICE. Their dealerships are (rightfully) scared shitless facing this prospect . . . my 2018 LEAF has been to the dealer twice, for the first 2 free annual battery reports Nissan wants us to do.
And aside from losing ICE's maintenance/repair burden, how can the dealership model with its massive retail footprint survive in a world of direct sales? They even locate themselves in "Auto Malls" (oof) . . . I don't need or want a salesperson and floor manager taking a $3000 cut from my car purchase. See the problem legacy is facing here??
Ford's Farley and Toyota's Toyoda were opposite poles of this dynamic, with Farley wanting to upend everything to take the fight to Tesla (and getting mighty pushback) with Toyoda . . . not doing that at all. VW's Diess and apparently Nissan's Ghosn also ran into this buzzsaw facing legacy makers.
Outside Tesla, legacy, random Chinese startups . . . we have Rivian I guess. They are certainly the main non-Musk Tesla type of EV startup and Scaringe is apparently the benign CEO type that I had assumed Musk was 5-10 years ago.
Rivian's first two offerings were still too rich for my tastes so I will have to wait for the R2 in 2026 to see what they've got cooking. This is a common theme with BEV right now . . . big promises for later this decade but not much excitement to be found on dealer lots or national inventory right now.
If I weren't #6000 in line for a Cybertruck no doubt there would be a M3 LR in my driveway right now. Well, there is, but it's only a Hertz rental.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:38 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Per the above infographic, most people who say they dislike/detest Musk still plan on sticking with Tesla, but 90% of those who want a different car dislike or detest Musk. Basically Musk's recent idiocy is the #1 driver of customer dissatisfaction, sigh.
It is increasingly clear to me that the legacy makers are going to have a hard time giving up ICE. Their dealerships are (rightfully) scared shitless facing this prospect . . . my 2018 LEAF has been to the dealer twice, for the first 2 free annual battery reports Nissan wants us to do.
And aside from losing ICE's maintenance/repair burden, how can the dealership model with its massive retail footprint survive in a world of direct sales? They even locate themselves in "Auto Malls" (oof) . . . I don't need or want a salesperson and floor manager taking a $3000 cut from my car purchase. See the problem legacy is facing here??
Ford's Farley and Toyota's Toyoda were opposite poles of this dynamic, with Farley wanting to upend everything to take the fight to Tesla (and getting mighty pushback) with Toyoda . . . not doing that at all. VW's Diess and apparently Nissan's Ghosn also ran into this buzzsaw facing legacy makers.
Outside Tesla, legacy, random Chinese startups . . . we have Rivian I guess. They are certainly the main non-Musk Tesla type of EV startup and Scaringe is apparently the benign CEO type that I had assumed Musk was 5-10 years ago.
Rivian's first two offerings were still too rich for my tastes so I will have to wait for the R2 in 2026 to see what they've got cooking. This is a common theme with BEV right now . . . big promises for later this decade but not much excitement to be found on dealer lots or national inventory right now.
If I weren't #6000 in line for a Cybertruck no doubt there would be a M3 LR in my driveway right now. Well, there is, but it's only a Hertz rental.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:38 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Note these both consider plug-in hybrids as well, not just battery EVs
PHEVs are a basically greenwashing and imo a total waste of precious resources.
A study of 100,000 PHEVs around the world found that few "actual" electric miles were driven. NEDC drive cycle assumes 69% distance driven would be on electric power - in China the amount was 26%.
Chinese PHEVs used 4x more fuel than the NEDC values, German PHEVs used 2.5x more fuel, and American PHEVs used 2x more fuel. (ICE vehicles also diverge from NEDC by about 30%)
You're getting the worst of both worlds - the weight and complexity of an ICE engine AND the weight and cost of a battery and electric motor. You end up with an expensive, bloated and heavy car, that ends up running 67% of the time on the ICE engine anyway.
I can't come up with a rational business equation for the manufacturer or consumer, unless the rationale is purely greenwashing and we can "call this an EV". They'll just drop in the smallest and crappiest battery they can find into the car and let the user drive on petrol most of the time. Chinese vehicles are particularly suspect based on the data, so don't be fooled by the large number of "EVs" that have been sold due to government mandates.
PHEVs should not be counted as an EV, unless you want to count hybrids as well (they also have batteries and electric motors), in which case Toyota would be the clear winner.
posted by xdvesper at 6:26 PM on July 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
PHEVs are a basically greenwashing and imo a total waste of precious resources.
A study of 100,000 PHEVs around the world found that few "actual" electric miles were driven. NEDC drive cycle assumes 69% distance driven would be on electric power - in China the amount was 26%.
Chinese PHEVs used 4x more fuel than the NEDC values, German PHEVs used 2.5x more fuel, and American PHEVs used 2x more fuel. (ICE vehicles also diverge from NEDC by about 30%)
You're getting the worst of both worlds - the weight and complexity of an ICE engine AND the weight and cost of a battery and electric motor. You end up with an expensive, bloated and heavy car, that ends up running 67% of the time on the ICE engine anyway.
I can't come up with a rational business equation for the manufacturer or consumer, unless the rationale is purely greenwashing and we can "call this an EV". They'll just drop in the smallest and crappiest battery they can find into the car and let the user drive on petrol most of the time. Chinese vehicles are particularly suspect based on the data, so don't be fooled by the large number of "EVs" that have been sold due to government mandates.
PHEVs should not be counted as an EV, unless you want to count hybrids as well (they also have batteries and electric motors), in which case Toyota would be the clear winner.
posted by xdvesper at 6:26 PM on July 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't really mind that Elon is an "idiot". I mind that he is a very, very bad person and with his resources does a lot of harm to marginalized people. Him being an "idiot" in this case is a big plus, really.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:19 PM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:19 PM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
There's a lot of focus on WeChat because it is so dominant in China. In Japan, LINE, the most popular messaging app offers the following: LINE Pay which is used to pay for things online and offline, LINE Wallet where you can send money between users, Part Time Jobs which helps people line up short term work in their area, LINE Pocket Money which does loans. There are also a crypto thing, a thing for playing the FOREX market, fortune telling, telemedicine, an online manga reader, a streaming music service, an app to buy stocks, a onestop for whatever point cards you use (there are a lot in Japan), they also offer their own mobile contracts (not sure which network they piggyback on).
Does everyone use these services? Probably not - things have come and gone on the app - but whatever X tries to do in Japan it will be an uphill battle. And adding more services would probably be the thing that would turn Japanese users off. They haven't quite left twitter in droves - when the rate limits kicked in there was a lot of trending of people looking for other services but so far a mass exodus hasn't happened.
posted by LostInUbe at 9:40 PM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Does everyone use these services? Probably not - things have come and gone on the app - but whatever X tries to do in Japan it will be an uphill battle. And adding more services would probably be the thing that would turn Japanese users off. They haven't quite left twitter in droves - when the rate limits kicked in there was a lot of trending of people looking for other services but so far a mass exodus hasn't happened.
posted by LostInUbe at 9:40 PM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
THIS EXPLAINS THE LASER ETCHED GLASS ADS!!! That I get TODAY. UGH.
posted by lextex at 6:07 AM on July 30, 2023
posted by lextex at 6:07 AM on July 30, 2023
I mean, can you get more "nothingburger" than that??
In the general mix of EV hype to get us to sell our old car and buy a new one today, perhaps, but it seems Car and Driver discovered their range fudging by simple testing.
posted by Brian B. at 10:17 AM on July 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
In the general mix of EV hype to get us to sell our old car and buy a new one today, perhaps, but it seems Car and Driver discovered their range fudging by simple testing.
posted by Brian B. at 10:17 AM on July 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's a lot of focus on WeChat because it is so dominant in China. In Japan, LINE, the most popular messaging app offers the following: LINE Pay which is used to pay for things online etc --LostInUbe
I've heard that if you do business in Japan, you need to have a LINE account--to communicate with your Japanese colleagues electronically. It became big after the huge earthquake/tsunami of 2011. For the first time, Japanese really needed a way to text each other to maintain contacts with friends/relatives and LINE stepped up to fill the need--kind of like Zoom did in the US with video conferencing during Covid. (And in South Korea, the big app is KakaoTalk).
If LINE (or KakaoTalk) added an easy-to-use, well moderated open short-text service, maybe they can fill a deep hole recently created by a certain individual buying out and disfiguring Twitter.
posted by eye of newt at 1:31 PM on July 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've heard that if you do business in Japan, you need to have a LINE account--to communicate with your Japanese colleagues electronically. It became big after the huge earthquake/tsunami of 2011. For the first time, Japanese really needed a way to text each other to maintain contacts with friends/relatives and LINE stepped up to fill the need--kind of like Zoom did in the US with video conferencing during Covid. (And in South Korea, the big app is KakaoTalk).
If LINE (or KakaoTalk) added an easy-to-use, well moderated open short-text service, maybe they can fill a deep hole recently created by a certain individual buying out and disfiguring Twitter.
posted by eye of newt at 1:31 PM on July 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
1. What WOULD help? How do you solve a problem like an Elon? We can't. He gets away with everything.
2. Elon himself is also a childish moron.
--jenfullmoon
There could be a solution to this. And that is in the Bloomberg survey that Nelson mentioned above. It that showed that 21.5% had disapproval of Elon Musk, and 17.8% didn't like Tesla's reputation, and therefore returned their cars. -That is 39.3%
It takes quite a bit to cause someone to return their car, and it is even more rare to do it because you don't like the the CEO (has that ever happened?).
So how many people are avoiding the car for their first purchase? There are a lot more people buying cars than returning cars, so it has to be a huge number. Tesla has recently had to eat into their margins and reduce costs to keep sales up enough to handle their factory output.
Elon Musk is hurting the Tesla brand. It is certainly in the millions of dollars, and I would guess that it is in the millions. He should be 'fired upward' like Toyota's CEO Toyoda (grandson of the founder), who was moved out of the CEO position to 'Chairman' when he refused to properly prepare the company for the industry change toward EVs. Lots of big funds that own Toyota stock put pressure on the company.
The Tesla Board of Directors really need to address this issue. If they don't (and they won't because they are all Elon's buddies), then they are not upholding their fiscal responsibility to the company, and are fiscally liable. They can be sued. Large funds that own Tesla stock should really be putting pressure on the company because it directly affects their stock price.
Yes, Tesla cars are doing well, because other car companies were sleeping at the wheel and have let them dominate the EV market, but the would definitely be doing better (and the survey shows this) and making a lot more money if Elon Musk was 'retired upward' or outward.
Sometimes companies grow beyond their founder and it becomes time to make a change (Elon Musk knows this very well, since he retired the original Tesla founder Martin Eberhard) .
posted by eye of newt at 2:06 PM on July 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
2. Elon himself is also a childish moron.
--jenfullmoon
There could be a solution to this. And that is in the Bloomberg survey that Nelson mentioned above. It that showed that 21.5% had disapproval of Elon Musk, and 17.8% didn't like Tesla's reputation, and therefore returned their cars. -That is 39.3%
It takes quite a bit to cause someone to return their car, and it is even more rare to do it because you don't like the the CEO (has that ever happened?).
So how many people are avoiding the car for their first purchase? There are a lot more people buying cars than returning cars, so it has to be a huge number. Tesla has recently had to eat into their margins and reduce costs to keep sales up enough to handle their factory output.
Elon Musk is hurting the Tesla brand. It is certainly in the millions of dollars, and I would guess that it is in the millions. He should be 'fired upward' like Toyota's CEO Toyoda (grandson of the founder), who was moved out of the CEO position to 'Chairman' when he refused to properly prepare the company for the industry change toward EVs. Lots of big funds that own Toyota stock put pressure on the company.
The Tesla Board of Directors really need to address this issue. If they don't (and they won't because they are all Elon's buddies), then they are not upholding their fiscal responsibility to the company, and are fiscally liable. They can be sued. Large funds that own Tesla stock should really be putting pressure on the company because it directly affects their stock price.
Yes, Tesla cars are doing well, because other car companies were sleeping at the wheel and have let them dominate the EV market, but the would definitely be doing better (and the survey shows this) and making a lot more money if Elon Musk was 'retired upward' or outward.
Sometimes companies grow beyond their founder and it becomes time to make a change (Elon Musk knows this very well, since he retired the original Tesla founder Martin Eberhard) .
posted by eye of newt at 2:06 PM on July 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
> he retired the original Tesla founder Martin Eberhard
and shot the car that was to be Eberhard's into space
posted by glonous keming at 2:22 PM on July 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
and shot the car that was to be Eberhard's into space
posted by glonous keming at 2:22 PM on July 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Tesla Board of Directors really need to address this issue.
They most likely cannot. This article from 2018 talks about Musk's super-voting shares that let him retain voting control of the company. Even after last year's selling spree he still owns an enormous amount of the company. I can't find anything recent about the distribution of voting rights but it seems very unlikely Elon would have given up control of the company.
They also will not. They've given Musk whatever he wants for years. The purchase of his cousin's failing solar company was a particular low point in Tesla governance. Also the stock price is doing great. I agree that Musk's nonsense is bad for Tesla. For the brand, for the company, for its leadership. But until that's reflected in the numbers no one's going to take radical action. And that will likely take years.
posted by Nelson at 2:25 PM on July 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
They most likely cannot. This article from 2018 talks about Musk's super-voting shares that let him retain voting control of the company. Even after last year's selling spree he still owns an enormous amount of the company. I can't find anything recent about the distribution of voting rights but it seems very unlikely Elon would have given up control of the company.
They also will not. They've given Musk whatever he wants for years. The purchase of his cousin's failing solar company was a particular low point in Tesla governance. Also the stock price is doing great. I agree that Musk's nonsense is bad for Tesla. For the brand, for the company, for its leadership. But until that's reflected in the numbers no one's going to take radical action. And that will likely take years.
posted by Nelson at 2:25 PM on July 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
If LINE (or KakaoTalk) added an easy-to-use, well moderated open short-text service, maybe they can fill a deep hole recently created by a certain individual buying out and disfiguring Twitter. --- eye of newt
Actually, there is a part of LINE called LINE Voom that is very Instagram like. The only thing is that no one uses it. And also, you don't need to anymore (I think) but originally you could only get a LINE account by registering your phone number. Japan likes its anonymous networks (2ch etc) and having a social media account that directly ties you to your phone is not that appealing to some (it took facebook a while to get going here).
It also has OpenChat, which are user-created (and moderated, I think) group chats but no one I know directly uses them. The Yamato Q (a sort of QAnon off-shoot in Japan) used OpenChat to plan their rallies until I think they realized that anti-Q forces were infiltrating their chats.
posted by LostInUbe at 4:01 PM on July 30, 2023
Actually, there is a part of LINE called LINE Voom that is very Instagram like. The only thing is that no one uses it. And also, you don't need to anymore (I think) but originally you could only get a LINE account by registering your phone number. Japan likes its anonymous networks (2ch etc) and having a social media account that directly ties you to your phone is not that appealing to some (it took facebook a while to get going here).
It also has OpenChat, which are user-created (and moderated, I think) group chats but no one I know directly uses them. The Yamato Q (a sort of QAnon off-shoot in Japan) used OpenChat to plan their rallies until I think they realized that anti-Q forces were infiltrating their chats.
posted by LostInUbe at 4:01 PM on July 30, 2023
>it seems Car and Driver discovered their range fudging by simple testing.
I drove the 160 miles from Santa Cruz to home yesterday in the rental LR at ~75mph, with the SOC dropping from 80% to 30%, within 4% of Tesla's advertised 333 mile range.
As with all BEVs, cold weather is the main range drag I guess, but IME crappy road pavement can also have a > 5% impact too!
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:53 AM on July 31, 2023
I drove the 160 miles from Santa Cruz to home yesterday in the rental LR at ~75mph, with the SOC dropping from 80% to 30%, within 4% of Tesla's advertised 333 mile range.
As with all BEVs, cold weather is the main range drag I guess, but IME crappy road pavement can also have a > 5% impact too!
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:53 AM on July 31, 2023
That's a great data point you have there, however....
Data collected in 2022 and 2023 from more than 8,000 Teslas by Recurrent, a Seattle-based EV analytics company, showed that the cars’ dashboard range meters didn’t change their estimates to reflect hot or cold outside temperatures, which can greatly reduce range.posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:41 AM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Recurrent found that Tesla’s four models almost always calculated that they could travel more than 90% of their advertised EPA range estimates regardless of external temperatures. Scott Case, Recurrent’s chief executive, told Reuters that Tesla’s range meters also ignore many other conditions affecting driving distance.
could someone explain the really intense hatred?
* He perpetuates harmful and wrong stereotypes about crime in San Francisco.
* He promotes inaccurate and racist misinformation.
* Employees at Tesla have been treated badly for years. Examples: 2017, 2018 (California); 2022 (Texas); and 2023 (Germany)
* Tesla illegally restricted the speech of workers, according to the National Labor Relations Board.
* Tesla is guilty of wage theft, according to workers who say they have not received their full pay. Some say they received no pay at all.
* In 2017, SpaceX denied any wrongdoing but settled with 4,100 reportedly underpaid employees for nearly $4 million. "... workers in California are entitled to a rest period every four hours in addition to a lunch break. However, shifts within the company are reportedly structured so that the employees can't take those breaks. The plaintiffs said they weren't compensated for those extra hours either."
* Musk reportedly tolerates abusive conditions at his companies, from SpaceX to Tesla to Twitter.
* Musk apparently is cool with racial harassment as well, which cost Tesla a few millions earlier this year.
* He destroyed Twitter's health and safety group and then let someone who posted banned content of a child back on Twitter.
* As referenced above, Musk has damaged the lives of more than one person.
This is only a partial list. My question is why anyone would feel neutrally about this raging asshole. He did exactly one great thing, which is getting Tesla to a good place. Kudos to him for that. Alas, that singular and important accomplishment does not make up for all the shitty things he has done and, apparently, will continue to do. Including ignoring laws and regulations that, in theory at least, should limit the damage done to the employees and customers of Tesla, SpaceX, and Twitter, as well as the vendors who supply them.
The guy is a menace. I do not hate many people, but this guy definitely qualifies for my ire. Be as chill as you want, but there is no need to be confused about why the guy is hated. He has worked hard to earn it.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:27 AM on July 31, 2023 [27 favorites]
* He perpetuates harmful and wrong stereotypes about crime in San Francisco.
* He promotes inaccurate and racist misinformation.
* Employees at Tesla have been treated badly for years. Examples: 2017, 2018 (California); 2022 (Texas); and 2023 (Germany)
* Tesla illegally restricted the speech of workers, according to the National Labor Relations Board.
* Tesla is guilty of wage theft, according to workers who say they have not received their full pay. Some say they received no pay at all.
* In 2017, SpaceX denied any wrongdoing but settled with 4,100 reportedly underpaid employees for nearly $4 million. "... workers in California are entitled to a rest period every four hours in addition to a lunch break. However, shifts within the company are reportedly structured so that the employees can't take those breaks. The plaintiffs said they weren't compensated for those extra hours either."
* Musk reportedly tolerates abusive conditions at his companies, from SpaceX to Tesla to Twitter.
* Musk apparently is cool with racial harassment as well, which cost Tesla a few millions earlier this year.
* He destroyed Twitter's health and safety group and then let someone who posted banned content of a child back on Twitter.
* As referenced above, Musk has damaged the lives of more than one person.
This is only a partial list. My question is why anyone would feel neutrally about this raging asshole. He did exactly one great thing, which is getting Tesla to a good place. Kudos to him for that. Alas, that singular and important accomplishment does not make up for all the shitty things he has done and, apparently, will continue to do. Including ignoring laws and regulations that, in theory at least, should limit the damage done to the employees and customers of Tesla, SpaceX, and Twitter, as well as the vendors who supply them.
The guy is a menace. I do not hate many people, but this guy definitely qualifies for my ire. Be as chill as you want, but there is no need to be confused about why the guy is hated. He has worked hard to earn it.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:27 AM on July 31, 2023 [27 favorites]
There's also his release of "The Twitter Files" in a transparent attempt to prove Twitter's past leadership was awful when his reign is much worse, his treating Twitter as his personal kingdom, his declaring "cis" to be a slur, his outright refusal to pay rent for his spaces, his refusal to give his laid-off employees severance packages, his decision to use rooms in his new building basically as hotel rooms for employees to sleep in so he can work them harder although not getting them approved as such, his dismissive approach to following the law in general, his union-busting efforts, and much more. Behind the Bastards has done at least three episodes on Musk, two of them recently in light of his being sued by many former employees, and they reveal a lot. The man really should not be lauded.
posted by JHarris at 12:49 PM on July 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 12:49 PM on July 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
Oh! And there was his Hyperloop thing that was basically announced to scuttle mass transit in California! And his Neuralink company, which made several irresponsible and impossible-to-fulfill promises and outright killed several monkeys, and that's just what we know. And that xAI thing, to buy into the AI hype and fleece speculators trying to by into it, and that's the most charitable explanation.
Back when Tesla was the big thing he was known for, it might have been possible to see him as a rich guy who was generally beneficial, but since then the full depth and breadth of his shittiness has become obvious. Elon Musk is a bad person.
I feel like he tries to be good, as far as he sees what "good" is to mean, but rich people end up with a cocoon of sycophants and hangers-on around them, which means even well-meaning ones can get deluded into doing awful things. Twitter is a place where such a person can find all kinds of folk seeking to manipulate him can reach him, and as we can see from his painful attempts to be cool, Musk is very vulnerable to peer pressure.
posted by JHarris at 5:33 PM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Back when Tesla was the big thing he was known for, it might have been possible to see him as a rich guy who was generally beneficial, but since then the full depth and breadth of his shittiness has become obvious. Elon Musk is a bad person.
I feel like he tries to be good, as far as he sees what "good" is to mean, but rich people end up with a cocoon of sycophants and hangers-on around them, which means even well-meaning ones can get deluded into doing awful things. Twitter is a place where such a person can find all kinds of folk seeking to manipulate him can reach him, and as we can see from his painful attempts to be cool, Musk is very vulnerable to peer pressure.
posted by JHarris at 5:33 PM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
rich people end up with a cocoon of sycophants and hangers-on around them
and not immediately sacking any potential Wazzock Alarm would require a degree of humility, or at minimum a lack of hubris, that Mole Sunk has yet to display.
posted by flabdablet at 8:37 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
and not immediately sacking any potential Wazzock Alarm would require a degree of humility, or at minimum a lack of hubris, that Mole Sunk has yet to display.
posted by flabdablet at 8:37 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
The sign at the headquarters in San Francisco has been removed, according to The Guardian and other news sources. The city building department logged 24 complaints after a weekend of the big X, which on Friday was erected on the roof of the company’s downtown San Francisco headquarters, on Market Street, to the chagrin of neighbors who complained about intrusive lights. ... “This morning, building inspectors observed the structure being dismantled,” a spokesperson from the city department of building inspection said by email on Monday. “The property owner will be assessed fees for the unpermitted installation of the illuminated structure.” X said the removal was voluntary.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:22 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 9:22 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wazzock alarm
He had one. He still misses her, but when she went off* he reflexively uninstalled her.
*
I love you but please turn off ur phone or give me a dall [sic]. I cannot support hate. Please stop this. I know this isn't your heart.
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:36 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Did we mention covid and vaccine denialism yet? Or promoting the idea that the white race is being destroyed by the Other so we need to control reproduction and make a bunch of white babies? Or paying a sex trafficker to be part of the twitter blue pyramid scheme?
(Since he controls an important media segment, all these ideas aren't just things he is personally expressing. He is paying influencers to promote them, changing the algorithm, removing people who disagree, etc. It's not about his personal opinion but that he's building a media network to promote these ideas.)
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:26 AM on August 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
(Since he controls an important media segment, all these ideas aren't just things he is personally expressing. He is paying influencers to promote them, changing the algorithm, removing people who disagree, etc. It's not about his personal opinion but that he's building a media network to promote these ideas.)
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:26 AM on August 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
The thing that really makes me angry/sad/annoyed/unwohl is that this "everything app" Musk is trying to make already exists, and it's called a freaking web browser. One might argue that it's not well-suited for that, it was made as an information delivery system and now it gets used as everything from a game console to a media player to a financial transactor to an automatic frustration machine, but it does it. It's like Musk is trying to make a version of the web, but smaller, worse, and within his malevolent grasp.
posted by JHarris at 3:56 PM on August 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 3:56 PM on August 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's just more bullshit with which he would be pumping the stock price, but since the company is private now it's just to retain mindshare and users. He used to do it all the time with Tesla.
"Whenever Poochie's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking 'where's Poochie?'"
--Rembrandt Q. Einstein
posted by rhizome at 11:23 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Whenever Poochie's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking 'where's Poochie?'"
--Rembrandt Q. Einstein
posted by rhizome at 11:23 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
smaller, worse, and within his malevolent grasp
is the desired end state of the entire world for people with poorly controlled Billionaire Personality Disorder.
posted by flabdablet at 12:14 AM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
is the desired end state of the entire world for people with poorly controlled Billionaire Personality Disorder.
posted by flabdablet at 12:14 AM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I note in passing that Mars is both smaller and worse than Earth.
posted by flabdablet at 3:35 AM on August 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 3:35 AM on August 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Just in case there was any doubt Musk Melon is going all in for the fascists in 2024:
'Free Speech Absolutist’ Elon Musk Hides Effective Political Ad That Calls Out GOP
posted by jamjam at 2:37 PM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
'Free Speech Absolutist’ Elon Musk Hides Effective Political Ad That Calls Out GOP
posted by jamjam at 2:37 PM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
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posted by chavenet at 10:39 AM on July 27, 2023 [7 favorites]