Hell Hath No Fury Like a Writer Who Gets a Speeding Ticket
August 11, 2023 8:24 AM Subscribe
David Simon, creator of “The Wire,” was livid that he got a $50 ticket for going 36 miles per hour in a school zone. His response drew a lot of responses. [The New York Times]
Thursday’s Headlines: Wow, the Guy Who Created ‘The Wire’ is a Real Jerk Edition [StreetsBlog NYC]
“What sort of off-brand city sends me a $50 camera ticket for speeding in a school zone for racing at 36 mph in a 25 zone at — wait for it — 5:40 a.m. in total darkness on a morning in — wait for it — mid-July?” he wrote. “Two-word clue: Yankees Suck.”An Open Letter to David Simon, Who Tweeted NYC Is ‘On the Make’ Because He Got a $50 Speeding Ticket [HellGate NYC]
Thursday’s Headlines: Wow, the Guy Who Created ‘The Wire’ is a Real Jerk Edition [StreetsBlog NYC]
christ...
seriously tho, its a school zone, just slow down you asshat
posted by supermedusa at 8:26 AM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
seriously tho, its a school zone, just slow down you asshat
posted by supermedusa at 8:26 AM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
If the goal was to let everyone know he's overreacting and being a huge dickhead, then mission accomplished asshat.
posted by Fizz at 8:30 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 8:30 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, if you want to have a conversation about how ticketing/fines/local governments abuse this to generate income, we can have that conversation, but THIS IS NOT THE WAY. What a strange hill to die on. But go off...
posted by Fizz at 8:32 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 8:32 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
A lot of the commentary online has been confused about what "school zone" means in the specific context of NYC. I'm 100% OK with someone getting a speeding ticket for 36 in a 25 zone. But I was sympathetic to Simon at first because a city extending punitive school zone fines outside any plausible school hours feels like a form of bureaucratic abuse.
However, from the first article:
(Also, as a Californian $50 for a speeding ticket seems like nothing. In California a speeding tickets is $35 but also comes with $203 of assessments, fees, and surcharges. Talk about your bureaucratic abuse.)
posted by Nelson at 8:34 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
However, from the first article:
the Legislature stipulated that cameras had to be placed within a quarter-mile of a schoolMy understanding is in New York the speed cameras are technically only allowed as part of a school zone enforcement. But the city sensibly wants to run the cameras 24 hours a day, so we end up with this 5:40am mid-July school zone ticket.
(Also, as a Californian $50 for a speeding ticket seems like nothing. In California a speeding tickets is $35 but also comes with $203 of assessments, fees, and surcharges. Talk about your bureaucratic abuse.)
posted by Nelson at 8:34 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
now I want to know what he drives. is it one of those monster SUVs that kills children all the time?
posted by supermedusa at 8:36 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 8:36 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
It wouldn’t be the first time he’s been a huge dickhead online.
Low-stakes but consistent enforcement is probably the best way to get people to follow traffic laws, or most other laws. It seems like his implicit position here is that speed limits are meant to be flexible guidelines. Which, to be fair, is how it works a lot of places, but apparently not in NYC these days.
posted by atoxyl at 8:38 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Low-stakes but consistent enforcement is probably the best way to get people to follow traffic laws, or most other laws. It seems like his implicit position here is that speed limits are meant to be flexible guidelines. Which, to be fair, is how it works a lot of places, but apparently not in NYC these days.
posted by atoxyl at 8:38 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Just because you can post your anger on social media, it doesn’t mean you should.
Also, how about a season six of The Wire?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:39 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, how about a season six of The Wire?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:39 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
This Simon guy sounds like he doesn't understand anything about the inner workings of big cities.
posted by theory at 8:39 AM on August 11, 2023 [100 favorites]
posted by theory at 8:39 AM on August 11, 2023 [100 favorites]
Season Six of the wire will focus on how over funded the Baltimore police department is due to abusing white people via speeding tickets.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:41 AM on August 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:41 AM on August 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
1) Let me say that I am generally pro-getting people to slow down. Too many pedestrians are dying right now, to say nothing of the cyclists. As a person that, when training for races, has run extensively on roads, sometimes in school zones at, like, 6am, I don't care how "no one is even out" you think it is, it is still reasonable to ask people Slow the Fuck Down at 5:40.
2) I have complained every time I've gotten a speeding ticket. But, and this is the big one:
3) I have complained over cocktails or at coffee. I have groused to my friends and family. I might have even complained to my therapist. I have not bitched on the internet to millions of people. And this to me, as an outspoken David Simon fan, is the most perplexing part. Like, we all complain and act like petty children when we get busted or called out of whatever. We are never our best selves. But I have no idea why people think it's necessary to do so on Twitter. Like, take a deep breath before you hit post. Have you learned nothing from the past two decades?
posted by thivaia at 8:41 AM on August 11, 2023 [50 favorites]
2) I have complained every time I've gotten a speeding ticket. But, and this is the big one:
3) I have complained over cocktails or at coffee. I have groused to my friends and family. I might have even complained to my therapist. I have not bitched on the internet to millions of people. And this to me, as an outspoken David Simon fan, is the most perplexing part. Like, we all complain and act like petty children when we get busted or called out of whatever. We are never our best selves. But I have no idea why people think it's necessary to do so on Twitter. Like, take a deep breath before you hit post. Have you learned nothing from the past two decades?
posted by thivaia at 8:41 AM on August 11, 2023 [50 favorites]
necessary to do so on Twitter.
Still can't bring myself to call it X
posted by thivaia at 8:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
Still can't bring myself to call it X
posted by thivaia at 8:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
This now makes me think he wrote the entire Bunny Colby arc after an HOA dispute.
posted by KrampusQuick at 8:47 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by KrampusQuick at 8:47 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I dunno why there is so much noise about this. There's a speed limit. Follow it. Driving a car is a privilege not a right. School zones don't cease to exist outside of school hours; plenty of kids frequent school playgrounds while school is out. Many accidents happen in the wee hours.
Your preference to get somewhere a few minutes faster does not trump another person's preference to exist.
posted by sid at 8:48 AM on August 11, 2023 [31 favorites]
Your preference to get somewhere a few minutes faster does not trump another person's preference to exist.
posted by sid at 8:48 AM on August 11, 2023 [31 favorites]
It seems like his implicit position here is that speed limits are meant to be flexible guidelines.
Actually, I’m being a little unfair here - if the 25 limit is specifically for the school zone I can understand the confusion about whether that’s applicable at all hours because I’m not sure that’s universal. He’s just going a bit over the top over $50 and a generally reasonably-designed program.
posted by atoxyl at 8:48 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Actually, I’m being a little unfair here - if the 25 limit is specifically for the school zone I can understand the confusion about whether that’s applicable at all hours because I’m not sure that’s universal. He’s just going a bit over the top over $50 and a generally reasonably-designed program.
posted by atoxyl at 8:48 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, 25mph seems high for a school zone. It's 40km/h which is regular residential speed limit here in Toronto. It goes down to 30 or 25 in certain areas / school zones.
posted by sid at 8:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by sid at 8:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
The fine should be scaled to his income.
Make $32000 a year - pay $50
Make $3,200,000 - pay $5000 - then he can bitch all he wants.
posted by djseafood at 8:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [30 favorites]
Make $32000 a year - pay $50
Make $3,200,000 - pay $5000 - then he can bitch all he wants.
posted by djseafood at 8:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [30 favorites]
He's wrong in some ways and not wrong in others. Speeding in a school zone when school is in is wrong, but running a camera at hours of the day when school is clearly not in session is also an obvious revenue grab. Eh, either way he can afford it, so I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
With the increasing popularity of of year-round school calendars I never assume class is or isn't in session other than around New Year's. And when might before school programs start? Not 5:40, but maybe 6-6:30? I do agree that some of those "on school days when children are present" signs/rules are kind of hard to interpret (is it open season on all children present if you're driving on a Sunday?), but this dude is just being an asshole because, I suspect, he's an asshole.
posted by obfuscation at 8:54 AM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by obfuscation at 8:54 AM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
Speeding in a school zone when school is in is wrong,
Why is this hard? Speeding cars kill more people than guns.
posted by gauche at 8:55 AM on August 11, 2023 [33 favorites]
Why is this hard? Speeding cars kill more people than guns.
posted by gauche at 8:55 AM on August 11, 2023 [33 favorites]
School zones don't cease to exist outside of school hours; plenty of kids frequent school playgrounds while school is out. Many accidents happen in the wee hours.
At 5:40 am in July? Come on. That logic just lets you extend the school zone to anywhere anytime. As Simon noted later, if he had just gotten the speeding ticket, he wouldn’t have objected, but a school zone ticket at a completely illogical time? Ridiculous.*
*Half the kerfluffle is because he took shots at NYC.
posted by Galvanic at 8:55 AM on August 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
At 5:40 am in July? Come on. That logic just lets you extend the school zone to anywhere anytime. As Simon noted later, if he had just gotten the speeding ticket, he wouldn’t have objected, but a school zone ticket at a completely illogical time? Ridiculous.*
*Half the kerfluffle is because he took shots at NYC.
posted by Galvanic at 8:55 AM on August 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
It's a fucking school zone asshole! Slow down, you don't get to decide when it applies.
Is the speed limited to school hours only? If not it's perfectly reasonable to let the camera run and give tickets.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:56 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Is the speed limited to school hours only? If not it's perfectly reasonable to let the camera run and give tickets.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:56 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Heh, he's almost certainly talking about third avenue, under the BQE. (because six lanes). Treating that as a 24-hour school zone is definitely New York at it's stupidest - it's a highway in the same sense that the West Side Highway is a highway (i.e. not technically one, because there are traffic lights and brave pedestrians can cross it, but yeah). The nearby schools (within a quarter-mile, a huge radius for NYC) are not visible from the road and IIRC the beginning and end of the school zone are not marked.
He's actually right, and I certainly don't mind a famous person bitching about it on X. NY willfully victimizes regular people all of the time and you usually don't even hear about it.
posted by anhedonic at 8:57 AM on August 11, 2023 [42 favorites]
He's actually right, and I certainly don't mind a famous person bitching about it on X. NY willfully victimizes regular people all of the time and you usually don't even hear about it.
posted by anhedonic at 8:57 AM on August 11, 2023 [42 favorites]
necessary to do so on Twitter.
Still can't bring myself to call it X
I'm going to be calling it Twitter until people literally don't know what I mean by it.
posted by tclark at 8:58 AM on August 11, 2023 [21 favorites]
Still can't bring myself to call it X
I'm going to be calling it Twitter until people literally don't know what I mean by it.
posted by tclark at 8:58 AM on August 11, 2023 [21 favorites]
Still can't bring myself to call it X
I'll allow it. I still refuse to call National Airport "Reagan."
Fuck that guy.
posted by Naberius at 8:58 AM on August 11, 2023 [67 favorites]
I'll allow it. I still refuse to call National Airport "Reagan."
Fuck that guy.
posted by Naberius at 8:58 AM on August 11, 2023 [67 favorites]
Speed limit is 25mph city wide, there's absolutely no confusion about the speed limit itself only disagreement about enforcement.
posted by muddgirl at 8:58 AM on August 11, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 8:58 AM on August 11, 2023 [27 favorites]
Season Six of The Wire was We Own This City, and it wasn't very good.
Season Seven of The Wire is a reality tv show where David Simon, acting as his own attorney, contests his speeding ticket.
posted by box at 8:59 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Season Seven of The Wire is a reality tv show where David Simon, acting as his own attorney, contests his speeding ticket.
posted by box at 8:59 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
One state over in New Jersey, school zones have posted hours or say something vague like "when children are present". But any confusion caused by school zone timing is pretty irrelevant here, since the speed limit on the road is always 25 mph if I'm reading the article correctly. Sure, the ticket said for speeding in a school zone, but that's just because of where the camera was. Speeding is still speeding. I hope he never tries to drive through my town, where the 25 mph limit is aggressively policed, and speeding nets you a bigger fine plus points on your license.
posted by mollweide at 9:00 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mollweide at 9:00 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
School zones don't cease to exist outside of school hours; plenty of kids frequent school playgrounds while school is out. Many accidents happen in the wee hours.
At 5:40 am in July? Come on. That logic just lets you extend the school zone to anywhere anytime. As Simon noted later, if he had just gotten the speeding ticket, he wouldn’t have objected, but a school zone ticket at a completely illogical time? Ridiculous.*
This is a wild take to have. Even at that time, its not beyond reason to assume a kid might be in a school zone, kids wake up early to go practice for sports at facilities that are often only available at said school.
I get that we're all being squeezed by corporations and government, but erring on the side of caution with regard to kids is kinda important. And we can have that conversation about how local municipalities abuse fines to genreate excess income for the city, but come on, its a fucking $50 ticket, ugh.
posted by Fizz at 9:00 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
At 5:40 am in July? Come on. That logic just lets you extend the school zone to anywhere anytime. As Simon noted later, if he had just gotten the speeding ticket, he wouldn’t have objected, but a school zone ticket at a completely illogical time? Ridiculous.*
This is a wild take to have. Even at that time, its not beyond reason to assume a kid might be in a school zone, kids wake up early to go practice for sports at facilities that are often only available at said school.
I get that we're all being squeezed by corporations and government, but erring on the side of caution with regard to kids is kinda important. And we can have that conversation about how local municipalities abuse fines to genreate excess income for the city, but come on, its a fucking $50 ticket, ugh.
posted by Fizz at 9:00 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
At 5:40 am in July? Come on.
I dunno about where you live but here in the inner suburbs of Toronto, school playgrounds are buzzing pretty much whenever I go by, even in the depths of summer. I have not specifically been in the early AM (not a morning person, and my kids aren't either) but I bet there would be kids there at 6:30 am, easy. Lots of younger kids are super early risers and parents need to take the somewhere to keep them busy.
posted by sid at 9:01 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I dunno about where you live but here in the inner suburbs of Toronto, school playgrounds are buzzing pretty much whenever I go by, even in the depths of summer. I have not specifically been in the early AM (not a morning person, and my kids aren't either) but I bet there would be kids there at 6:30 am, easy. Lots of younger kids are super early risers and parents need to take the somewhere to keep them busy.
posted by sid at 9:01 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is there a term for lashing out after being reprimanded? Before I judge this guy too harshly, I have to remember that I have basically the same reaction: How dare they! Yes I did the thing, but I was justified! This is unfair!
My young son has the same reaction. He gets furiously angry when scolded for things he knows are wrong, like hitting his sister.
I think this reaction is central to American politics; e.g., it’s the same response the right has when called out for racism.
(And now I’ll judge the guy: when you find yourself in this situation, the correct course of action is to lick your wounds quietly and get over it as quickly as possible. Not go on a Twitter tirade)
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:01 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
My young son has the same reaction. He gets furiously angry when scolded for things he knows are wrong, like hitting his sister.
I think this reaction is central to American politics; e.g., it’s the same response the right has when called out for racism.
(And now I’ll judge the guy: when you find yourself in this situation, the correct course of action is to lick your wounds quietly and get over it as quickly as possible. Not go on a Twitter tirade)
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:01 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
speeding in a school zone... in total darkness
.
posted by fairmettle at 9:03 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
.
posted by fairmettle at 9:03 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
If David Simon or anyone else driving from Maryland to NYC wants to avoid getting ticketed for dangerous and antisocial behaviour like driving 44% over the speed limit, they're welcome to take the train, as the vast majority of people who live in Manhattan do every day.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 9:03 AM on August 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 9:03 AM on August 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
This is a wild take to have
It’s really not. And yes, there might be kids present at times out of school. They might also be at parks, shopping malls, annd other places where cars are. This just becomes a way of weaponizing children in service of a larger crusade.
posted by Galvanic at 9:05 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
It’s really not. And yes, there might be kids present at times out of school. They might also be at parks, shopping malls, annd other places where cars are. This just becomes a way of weaponizing children in service of a larger crusade.
posted by Galvanic at 9:05 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Iunno, season five was pretty ham-fisted. Might be best to let it be.
posted by slogger at 9:06 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by slogger at 9:06 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
This just becomes a way of weaponizing children in service of a larger crusade.
A larger crusade to prevent deaths and life-altering accidents?
posted by sid at 9:06 AM on August 11, 2023 [44 favorites]
A larger crusade to prevent deaths and life-altering accidents?
posted by sid at 9:06 AM on August 11, 2023 [44 favorites]
No sweetie, you can't go to the school playground first thing in the morning. We all need to do our part to make it safe for David Simon to drive above the speed limit.
posted by Phssthpok at 9:06 AM on August 11, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by Phssthpok at 9:06 AM on August 11, 2023 [26 favorites]
NYC DOT replied to his post saying the speed limit city wide is 25. So he was speeing regardless of the time/month/lunar cycle. I guess his complaint is the enforcement mechanism? Doesn't change that he was breaking the law.
posted by msbutah at 9:07 AM on August 11, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by msbutah at 9:07 AM on August 11, 2023 [24 favorites]
“Delete your account.” - that is one cold response.
posted by doctornemo at 9:07 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 9:07 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
in Las Vegas (when I lived there) the school zone speed limit was 15mph. (if you've ever lived there you know how utterly necessary that was). a friend got a speeding ticket in a school zone and it was a $700 fine!!! $50 is cheap.
posted by supermedusa at 9:07 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 9:07 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
36 in a 25? Well there's your problem, everyone knows it's risky to go more than 10 over. 11 over? You get what you get and you don't get upset.
I favor 5 over, for that sweet spot where you're almost certainly not going to get a ticket, but also people behind you aren't getting alarmingly angry to the point of doing dumb things
Our friend Jehiah Czebotar used what little information that Simon provided to come up with three possible cars associated with a July ticket at the time in question
Big if relevant, 'cause they all had other speeding tickets.
posted by Baethan at 9:07 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I favor 5 over, for that sweet spot where you're almost certainly not going to get a ticket, but also people behind you aren't getting alarmingly angry to the point of doing dumb things
Our friend Jehiah Czebotar used what little information that Simon provided to come up with three possible cars associated with a July ticket at the time in question
Big if relevant, 'cause they all had other speeding tickets.
posted by Baethan at 9:07 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I favor 5 over ... people behind you aren't getting alarmingly angry to the point of doing dumb things
Where do you drive? I want to drive there.
posted by obfuscation at 9:11 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Where do you drive? I want to drive there.
posted by obfuscation at 9:11 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
> If David Simon or anyone else driving from Maryland to NYC wants to avoid getting ticketed for dangerous and antisocial behaviour like driving 44% over the speed limit, they're welcome to take the train, as the vast majority of people who live in Manhattan do every day.
i'm not sure you even realized it, but you've put your finger precisely on the root cause: thanks to all those manhattanites traveling from nyc to maryland and back by train every day, every single train car in the northeast is loaded past capacity more or less around the clock. until that problem is solved — and no, amtrak, hiring more tokyo-style "pushers" at acela stations does not count as "solving the problem" — folks from out of town who aren't used to city life are, unfortunately, going to keep driving that route instead of cramming themselves onto the train.
new yorkers! you don't have to go to baltimore every day! stop it! just stop it!
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:13 AM on August 11, 2023
i'm not sure you even realized it, but you've put your finger precisely on the root cause: thanks to all those manhattanites traveling from nyc to maryland and back by train every day, every single train car in the northeast is loaded past capacity more or less around the clock. until that problem is solved — and no, amtrak, hiring more tokyo-style "pushers" at acela stations does not count as "solving the problem" — folks from out of town who aren't used to city life are, unfortunately, going to keep driving that route instead of cramming themselves onto the train.
new yorkers! you don't have to go to baltimore every day! stop it! just stop it!
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:13 AM on August 11, 2023
Eh, he's just being cranky on Twitter. It's stupid but, unless he's tossing around slurs or something, it's just another dude being kind of childish on a bad day. Bar's got to be higher than that for me to care.
(I don't like this "let's pretend that most drivers, including me, don't speed on occasion" approach...the ubiquity of the practice doesn't mean it's okay, but it does mean sanctimony on the subject is ill-advised.)
posted by praemunire at 9:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
(I don't like this "let's pretend that most drivers, including me, don't speed on occasion" approach...the ubiquity of the practice doesn't mean it's okay, but it does mean sanctimony on the subject is ill-advised.)
posted by praemunire at 9:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
A larger crusade to prevent deaths and life-altering accidents?
A larger crusade to make driving so impossible that people are forced to give it up.
posted by Galvanic at 9:18 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
A larger crusade to make driving so impossible that people are forced to give it up.
posted by Galvanic at 9:18 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just to complicate things, there's a debate in several California cities about whether to expand our use of speed and red light cameras because they tend to have racist outcomes. The key reporting here is Chicago’s “Race-Neutral” Traffic Cameras Ticket Black and Latino Drivers the Most (2022). The root cause is the neighborhoods that have the kind of streets that benefit most from cameras also tend to be places Black and Latino people live and drive. I have no idea if that's relevant to this New York story.
To the other discussion, as I said before the question of whether 5:40am is schooltime is not central. The fact it's called a "school zone ticket" is an accident of the way New York's traffic camera laws work.
posted by Nelson at 9:18 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
To the other discussion, as I said before the question of whether 5:40am is schooltime is not central. The fact it's called a "school zone ticket" is an accident of the way New York's traffic camera laws work.
posted by Nelson at 9:18 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I originally read the situation as he wrote an oped in the NYT about a ticket, rather than a a dumb Twitter post about a ticket. Yeah...the thing about the Internet is that the whole world can read it. So maybe yelling online when you did something dumb isn't very smart.
I got a ticket the other day. It was fair, I passed in the HOV lane (electric car, but not registered to use that lane in rush hour). Not happy, but sure, I knew I was wrong. The CHiPpie actually thanked me for not arguing about it, so I'm guessing everyone argues and tries to talk their way out of tickets? Seems pointless?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:19 AM on August 11, 2023
I got a ticket the other day. It was fair, I passed in the HOV lane (electric car, but not registered to use that lane in rush hour). Not happy, but sure, I knew I was wrong. The CHiPpie actually thanked me for not arguing about it, so I'm guessing everyone argues and tries to talk their way out of tickets? Seems pointless?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:19 AM on August 11, 2023
because a city extending punitive school zone fines outside any plausible school hours feels like a form of bureaucratic abuse.
My city used to have two zones - school zones, which only functioned during school days & hours, and playground zones, which were in effect year round. This was as confusing as hell for a lot of drivers because (a) we have two school systems, plus charters & privates, and their schedules don't usually line up in terms of holidays/breaks/etc; (b) often times a school zone would end and a playground zone begin in close proximity; and (c) the hours of enforcement were like 7:30am to "one hour after sundown", which, you know, varies a lot when you live in Canada.
So a few years ago, they did away with school zones, and everything is now a playground zone and in effect 365 days a year; and the hours have been set to 7:30am to 9pm. So really, my only area where I can somewhat agree with Mr. Simon (whose TV shows and writing I have enjoyed a great deal, and he's allowed to have a bad day and grump now and then) on this point, is the 24 hour nature of the zones in NYC...which, you know, I can't really speak to the rationale behind it but maybe there is one? Anyways, traffic laws are different in different places and you should pay attention, and in general traffic moving slower saves lives and, you know, is better for fuel economy. And a $50 fine seems pretty light compared to what I'm used to; in my world, being 11mph (or 17.7 kmh, since I'm in a place that uses metric for this - let's round it down to 17 to be fair) would be a fine of $156 Cdn or $116 USD at the current exchange rate.
posted by nubs at 9:21 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
My city used to have two zones - school zones, which only functioned during school days & hours, and playground zones, which were in effect year round. This was as confusing as hell for a lot of drivers because (a) we have two school systems, plus charters & privates, and their schedules don't usually line up in terms of holidays/breaks/etc; (b) often times a school zone would end and a playground zone begin in close proximity; and (c) the hours of enforcement were like 7:30am to "one hour after sundown", which, you know, varies a lot when you live in Canada.
So a few years ago, they did away with school zones, and everything is now a playground zone and in effect 365 days a year; and the hours have been set to 7:30am to 9pm. So really, my only area where I can somewhat agree with Mr. Simon (whose TV shows and writing I have enjoyed a great deal, and he's allowed to have a bad day and grump now and then) on this point, is the 24 hour nature of the zones in NYC...which, you know, I can't really speak to the rationale behind it but maybe there is one? Anyways, traffic laws are different in different places and you should pay attention, and in general traffic moving slower saves lives and, you know, is better for fuel economy. And a $50 fine seems pretty light compared to what I'm used to; in my world, being 11mph (or 17.7 kmh, since I'm in a place that uses metric for this - let's round it down to 17 to be fair) would be a fine of $156 Cdn or $116 USD at the current exchange rate.
posted by nubs at 9:21 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
A larger crusade to make driving so impossible that people are forced to give it up.
If keeping under 25mph is "impossible" for motorists then sign me up to make driving impossible.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 9:23 AM on August 11, 2023 [30 favorites]
If keeping under 25mph is "impossible" for motorists then sign me up to make driving impossible.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 9:23 AM on August 11, 2023 [30 favorites]
we could just ignore the grousey tweet, but then imagine all that we would have lost ?
posted by MonsieurPEB at 9:26 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 9:26 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I break the speed limit all the time when I drive. here is my personal system: the lower the speed limit the more closely I hew to it. so anything 25 and under I adhere to precisely. there is generally a good reason (ie residential neighborhood, I don't want to hit anyone's kid or dog or granny). 30 and up I'll go maybe 5 over. once I'm at freeway speeds I'll go 10/15 over, but no more. we have some 70mph roads in CA, and I'll generally pin it at 80 there. what's really interesting is that most other drivers seen to go about 80. like, ok that is fast enough. I just don't want people getting hurt.
posted by supermedusa at 9:27 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 9:27 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Someone vented about getting a speeding ticket at 5 AM? What sort of inhuman monster does that?
posted by mark k at 9:31 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mark k at 9:31 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
A larger crusade to make driving so impossible that people are forced to give it up.
I would absolutely love an FPP about the folks that have been “forced” to give up driving because of this “crusade”.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 9:32 AM on August 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
I would absolutely love an FPP about the folks that have been “forced” to give up driving because of this “crusade”.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 9:32 AM on August 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
This is a wild take to have. Even at that time, its not beyond reason to assume a kid might be in a school zone, kids wake up early to go practice for sports at facilities that are often only available at said school.
It’s also not totally beyond reason to think that school zone enforcement is conditional because that’s how it works some places. Actually I think it’s often pretty ambiguous and discretionary how it works and it’s probably a good baseline assumption that it’s in effect if you want to avoid getting tickets, but it is definitely not universally the norm for cameras to be active at all hours.
But based on what other people are saying, the speed limit is actually 25 period, the school zone justifies the camera enforcement, it’s the kind of road where it looks like you can ignore the limit, but you can’t, and the fine is a slap on the wrist. Sucks to find out that way but doesn’t seem too outrageous.
posted by atoxyl at 9:35 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
It’s also not totally beyond reason to think that school zone enforcement is conditional because that’s how it works some places. Actually I think it’s often pretty ambiguous and discretionary how it works and it’s probably a good baseline assumption that it’s in effect if you want to avoid getting tickets, but it is definitely not universally the norm for cameras to be active at all hours.
But based on what other people are saying, the speed limit is actually 25 period, the school zone justifies the camera enforcement, it’s the kind of road where it looks like you can ignore the limit, but you can’t, and the fine is a slap on the wrist. Sucks to find out that way but doesn’t seem too outrageous.
posted by atoxyl at 9:35 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
I suspect most will slowly be priced out of owning a vehicle as self-driving cars are onboarded. These cars will be largely owned by some conglomerate that charges enough rent for what people would have paid for a car they own themselves, who will then be paying for the privilege of getting somewhere more slowly, being in cars programmed to follow zoned limits.
The problem with speeding will then largely become one where municipalities have to figure out alternative revenue-generating schemes. Which is basically the main plot point of We Own This City so I suppose this all connects back to David Simon, in a way.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:36 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
The problem with speeding will then largely become one where municipalities have to figure out alternative revenue-generating schemes. Which is basically the main plot point of We Own This City so I suppose this all connects back to David Simon, in a way.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:36 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
A larger crusade to make driving so impossible that people are forced to give it up.
Sound like my kind of people. Where do I sign up?
I drive far too much, and I live in an area with excellent public transit. I think making driving more unattractive is a good thing. There are far too many cars in Toronto, and maintaining our current car use rate as the population increases is not sustainable. I suspect the same applies to the NYC area.
posted by sid at 9:36 AM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sound like my kind of people. Where do I sign up?
I drive far too much, and I live in an area with excellent public transit. I think making driving more unattractive is a good thing. There are far too many cars in Toronto, and maintaining our current car use rate as the population increases is not sustainable. I suspect the same applies to the NYC area.
posted by sid at 9:36 AM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
NYC DOT replied to his post saying the speed limit city wide is 25
The speed limit on the Belt Parkway and BQE is 25? Good luck with enforcement.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:38 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
The speed limit on the Belt Parkway and BQE is 25? Good luck with enforcement.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:38 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Speed limit is 25 regardless" -okay, so everyone in NYC gets a speeding ticket daily right?
"Kids might be at school playgrounds in the summer" -or any other playground, right?
"It's not unreasonable to see kids out at 6:30am" -yes but this was at 5:45am, if you say there's no difference you must be a hell of a valuable employee
While there is no crusade on speeding in the US, there *is* a rapacious appetite for revenue and for once in a blue moon I agree with Galvanic about how "weaponizing children" is a popular pastime.
Also, pay the fucking ticket and don't be such an asshole.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:39 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
"Kids might be at school playgrounds in the summer" -or any other playground, right?
"It's not unreasonable to see kids out at 6:30am" -yes but this was at 5:45am, if you say there's no difference you must be a hell of a valuable employee
While there is no crusade on speeding in the US, there *is* a rapacious appetite for revenue and for once in a blue moon I agree with Galvanic about how "weaponizing children" is a popular pastime.
Also, pay the fucking ticket and don't be such an asshole.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:39 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
A larger crusade to make driving so impossible that people are forced to give it up.
(looks at Not Just Bikes, Strong Towns, and others pointing out the damage pro-car policies have done to communities)
And that would be a bad thing because? Because the reality is that our pro-car policies are doing damage on so many levels. Your argument is assuming that everyone should agree with you that disincentivizing driving is bad - but not only do you not provide evidence for your position, but you ignore the mounds of evidence against it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
(looks at Not Just Bikes, Strong Towns, and others pointing out the damage pro-car policies have done to communities)
And that would be a bad thing because? Because the reality is that our pro-car policies are doing damage on so many levels. Your argument is assuming that everyone should agree with you that disincentivizing driving is bad - but not only do you not provide evidence for your position, but you ignore the mounds of evidence against it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
the second article clearly stated that the program in NYC costs more to run than the revenue it brings in.
posted by supermedusa at 9:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 9:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
So it would be even more in the red if they didn't enforce the limits at night.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:43 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:43 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
The speed limit on the Belt Parkway and BQE is 25? Good luck with enforcement.
It's 25 unless otherwise posted on city streets.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 9:43 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's 25 unless otherwise posted on city streets.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 9:43 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I originally read the situation as he wrote an oped in the NYT about a ticket, rather than a a dumb Twitter post about a ticket. Yeah...the thing about the Internet is that the whole world can read it. So maybe yelling online when you did something dumb isn't very smart.
Isn't he a Gen X guy? I thought "you don't have to post everything" was at least one of their bylaws.
posted by Selena777 at 9:45 AM on August 11, 2023
Isn't he a Gen X guy? I thought "you don't have to post everything" was at least one of their bylaws.
posted by Selena777 at 9:45 AM on August 11, 2023
He is absolutely 100% right.
I mean about the Yankees. They do suck.
posted by bondcliff at 9:46 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean about the Yankees. They do suck.
posted by bondcliff at 9:46 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
To be clear, I am very much in favor of making driving in Manhattan generally an expensive pain-in-the-ass. The planet's on fire. It's insane to have people driving in such a dense area without a good justification.
Nonetheless, when it comes to hyperbolic whining on the Internet about a minor inconvenience...use every man according to his desert, and who shall scape whipping?
posted by praemunire at 9:47 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Nonetheless, when it comes to hyperbolic whining on the Internet about a minor inconvenience...use every man according to his desert, and who shall scape whipping?
posted by praemunire at 9:47 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I just see their names and not immediate references to their work, I often get David Simon and Larry David confused, so for a minute this all seemed extremely on-brand and I was very confused.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 9:47 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 9:47 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I believe that all motorized vehicles should be fitted with GPS-connected governors such that they cannot exceed the local posted speed limit under any circumstances, and that the mandatory minimum sentence for purposefully disabling or overriding this device should be lifetime imprisonment.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:48 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:48 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
everyone in NYC gets a speeding ticket daily right?
Everyone who speeds past a traffic camera.
I don't know my dudes, especially for us white folks it seems pretty easy to not get a traffic ticket. I've driven for 20+ years and never gotten a speeding ticket, a red light ticket, passing a school bus stop sign ticket, any of these automated or non-automated tickets. And I don't think that I drive like a granny.
posted by muddgirl at 9:49 AM on August 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
Everyone who speeds past a traffic camera.
I don't know my dudes, especially for us white folks it seems pretty easy to not get a traffic ticket. I've driven for 20+ years and never gotten a speeding ticket, a red light ticket, passing a school bus stop sign ticket, any of these automated or non-automated tickets. And I don't think that I drive like a granny.
posted by muddgirl at 9:49 AM on August 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
Like, setting aside ACAB, we all have to share the road and that means taking our turn and following the rules. Yes even if it is 6am, just because that feels early to me doesn't mean it feels early to all the other citizens who are on the streets at that hour.
posted by muddgirl at 9:50 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 9:50 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
5:20 am mid summer school zone speed limit enforcement is foolish and speaks to me of there being too many bureaucrats looking to make themselves appear useful. In this instance, fuck yeah, defund the police
posted by philip-random at 9:53 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 9:53 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
In British Columbia there are two kinds of zones, school zones and playground zones. The signs on school zones say, "8AM-5PM School Days" so you have to know when school is in, but 5:40AM in July ain't it. Playgrounds are generally active between dawn and dusk. The speed limit for both is 30km/h (<20mph). The zones and signage are almost always reasonable.
But the real difference is that in Canada speeding fines don't go to the municipality or police force, they go to the province and get redistributed. We've got problems with cops too but incentivizing the creation of unreasonable and profitable traps isn't really one of them*. (Not really sure if this holds in provinces with a provincial police force.) So fixating on the zones themselves is probably a waste of time. You have to change the way policing is funded.
* Lead-footed dumbasses with poor emotional regulation often disagree, but: cope.
posted by klanawa at 10:05 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
But the real difference is that in Canada speeding fines don't go to the municipality or police force, they go to the province and get redistributed. We've got problems with cops too but incentivizing the creation of unreasonable and profitable traps isn't really one of them*. (Not really sure if this holds in provinces with a provincial police force.) So fixating on the zones themselves is probably a waste of time. You have to change the way policing is funded.
* Lead-footed dumbasses with poor emotional regulation often disagree, but: cope.
posted by klanawa at 10:05 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
This now makes me think he wrote the entire Bunny Colby arc after an HOA dispute.
Bunny Colvin. "Bunny Colby" is a NSFW google!
posted by alspacka at 10:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Bunny Colvin. "Bunny Colby" is a NSFW google!
posted by alspacka at 10:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Cars are a leading cause of death in the US. I understand people don't get this and people aren't born knowing things and fines and fees can disproportionally impact poor people. But this dude has the money, time, and expertise to fucking google. What a fucking asshole.
posted by latkes at 10:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by latkes at 10:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is bean dad all over again: a situation that can be completely defused by answering some simple questions:
* Was school in session when he got the ticket?
* What does the signage where he got the ticket say exactly?
* Simon was going 36 mph. What is the speed limit of the surrounding area, which would be the assumed speed limit of the school zone when school is not in session?
* If the school zone speed limit is in effect at all times, why not change just the posted speed limit?
But journalism doesn't "find answers" or "present facts" anymore; it just strives to stir outrage and get more clicks.
Everything else is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how rich or how many twitter followers Simon has. It doesn't matter what traffic fatality stats are. Saying that Simon shouldn't have snarked on NYC or this backlash wouldn't have happened if he hadn't complain the "wrong way" is just tone policing.
What expectations does the signage at the scene set, and was Simon following those expectations? We don't know.
And if you're complaining about Simon complaining about this issue or that this is a non-issue, well someone posted it to Metafilter and here we all are talking about it too. This Metafilter post will get 200+ comments, or I'll eat my hat.
posted by AlSweigart at 10:18 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
* Was school in session when he got the ticket?
* What does the signage where he got the ticket say exactly?
* Simon was going 36 mph. What is the speed limit of the surrounding area, which would be the assumed speed limit of the school zone when school is not in session?
* If the school zone speed limit is in effect at all times, why not change just the posted speed limit?
But journalism doesn't "find answers" or "present facts" anymore; it just strives to stir outrage and get more clicks.
Everything else is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how rich or how many twitter followers Simon has. It doesn't matter what traffic fatality stats are. Saying that Simon shouldn't have snarked on NYC or this backlash wouldn't have happened if he hadn't complain the "wrong way" is just tone policing.
What expectations does the signage at the scene set, and was Simon following those expectations? We don't know.
And if you're complaining about Simon complaining about this issue or that this is a non-issue, well someone posted it to Metafilter and here we all are talking about it too. This Metafilter post will get 200+ comments, or I'll eat my hat.
posted by AlSweigart at 10:18 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
(150+ comments if this post is in a school zone.)
posted by AlSweigart at 10:18 AM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 10:18 AM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Cis white male here. In twenty years of driving, I've only ever been pulled over once and that was because I fucked up and didn't notice a stop sign that I breezed through. And I got a written warning.
For cis white males, not getting a ticket is ridiculously easy. All you have to do is stay close to the speed limit and not break basic traffic laws too much.
So if you're also a cis white male, I implore you to stick it to those bureaucrats at city hall by driving like a reasonable person. Just think of all the revenue you're depriving them of!!!
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:22 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
For cis white males, not getting a ticket is ridiculously easy. All you have to do is stay close to the speed limit and not break basic traffic laws too much.
So if you're also a cis white male, I implore you to stick it to those bureaucrats at city hall by driving like a reasonable person. Just think of all the revenue you're depriving them of!!!
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:22 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
5:20 am mid summer school zone speed limit enforcement is foolish and speaks to me of there being too many bureaucrats looking to make themselves appear useful.
As has been stated elsewhere upthread, the stated limit is citywide in NYC, and it is thus because there are 12 million people living here and at 5 am some of them might be very likely trying to get to a service job catering to people with later start times. This is not "a bureaucrat trying to look useful", this a large and diverse city trying to function.
Defend the police, but not to cater to rich asshiles.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:24 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
As has been stated elsewhere upthread, the stated limit is citywide in NYC, and it is thus because there are 12 million people living here and at 5 am some of them might be very likely trying to get to a service job catering to people with later start times. This is not "a bureaucrat trying to look useful", this a large and diverse city trying to function.
Defend the police, but not to cater to rich asshiles.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:24 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
if he had just gotten the speeding ticket, he wouldn’t have objected, but a school zone ticket at a completely illogical time? Ridiculous.
I'd argue that conditioning people (yes yes, larger crusade, etc.) to slow down in a school zone no matter the hour of the day would probably increase the likelihood that people would slow down more consistently during school hours. Because then it's just more reflexive to slow down in school zones period.
But also, rich white guy whines publicly about paying $50 because he can't do whatever he wants, whenever he wants? Yeah, boo hoo, who gives a shit.
posted by Rykey at 10:27 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
I'd argue that conditioning people (yes yes, larger crusade, etc.) to slow down in a school zone no matter the hour of the day would probably increase the likelihood that people would slow down more consistently during school hours. Because then it's just more reflexive to slow down in school zones period.
But also, rich white guy whines publicly about paying $50 because he can't do whatever he wants, whenever he wants? Yeah, boo hoo, who gives a shit.
posted by Rykey at 10:27 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
Here's my compromise. Obviously no one should get a ticket for speeding in a school zone when there are no kids. However, there are plenty of (often lower income) workers -- restaurant, service, caretaking, nursing -- who have to go to and from work at all hours of the day and night, all year round. And my premise for this compromise is that they, too, shouldn't be hit and killed or maimed by cars. (My actual opinion -- and this is probably too radical for some -- is that even the unemployed and retirees shouldn't be hit and killed or maimed by cars.)
So my compromise is that you can only get a school zone fine for speeding between 7 AM to 6 PM, M-F, Sept-June. The rest of the time, you get a frontline worker zone fine.
The exception -- and some have literally claimed this is impossible! -- is if you operate your two-ton piece of heavy machinery within the legally required safety regulations while it's in a public space. Obviously a ridiculous ask, but in those cases, you wouldn't get a speeding ticket at all.
posted by Superilla at 10:33 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
So my compromise is that you can only get a school zone fine for speeding between 7 AM to 6 PM, M-F, Sept-June. The rest of the time, you get a frontline worker zone fine.
The exception -- and some have literally claimed this is impossible! -- is if you operate your two-ton piece of heavy machinery within the legally required safety regulations while it's in a public space. Obviously a ridiculous ask, but in those cases, you wouldn't get a speeding ticket at all.
posted by Superilla at 10:33 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
People keep saying the 5:40am thing, and the school zone thing, but if you read the articles or the tweets from NYC DOT you will learn several things (imagine that):
1. The speed limit in NYC is 25 city-wide unless otherwise marked. (Here in Chicago it's 30 and that's too fast, I hate it.)
2. It's a "school zone" ticket only because the city is legislatively limited to placing cameras in school zones. Which, yes, is a weaponization of "think of the children" but the answer to that is not "don't think of the children" but in fact "everyone deserves safety." I hate that we have been forced to use school/playground zones as a gateway to enforcement, because it creates exactly this strife and the justification that "I don't see kids, so it's fair game to speed."
3. From the second article: "Before New York City turned its speed cameras on 24/7 last year, 59 percent of all traffic fatalities occurred when the cameras were turned off."
4. Speed cameras work to reduce speeding. After an initial burst of tickets issued people learn not to speed in that area. (There are also studies that show it reduces speed beyond just the block where the camera is placed.)
5. This has a direct reduction in injuries (again from the second article) "DOT data shows that injuries decreased by 14 percent and speeding by 70 percent where the cameras are. "
In a large city, speeding is easiest or often only even possible when the congestion is light, because there aren't other drivers in your way to physically slow you down. Which is going to be late, overnight, or early morning hours. This is exactly when speed enforcement is needed, because we stupidly build roads to accommodate the heaviest traffic volumes, leaving them wide open and encouraging speeding all other times. I walk my dogs at 5:15am. I go for a run at 6:00am or I ride my bike to work at 6:30am. That is precisely when drivers are speeding (and blowing stop signs, but don't even get me started on that...) because there isn't congestion to slow them down and because they think "no one is around" they don't even look. I am not a child but I still deserve not to be killed by a speeding driver.
posted by misskaz at 10:35 AM on August 11, 2023 [94 favorites]
1. The speed limit in NYC is 25 city-wide unless otherwise marked. (Here in Chicago it's 30 and that's too fast, I hate it.)
2. It's a "school zone" ticket only because the city is legislatively limited to placing cameras in school zones. Which, yes, is a weaponization of "think of the children" but the answer to that is not "don't think of the children" but in fact "everyone deserves safety." I hate that we have been forced to use school/playground zones as a gateway to enforcement, because it creates exactly this strife and the justification that "I don't see kids, so it's fair game to speed."
3. From the second article: "Before New York City turned its speed cameras on 24/7 last year, 59 percent of all traffic fatalities occurred when the cameras were turned off."
4. Speed cameras work to reduce speeding. After an initial burst of tickets issued people learn not to speed in that area. (There are also studies that show it reduces speed beyond just the block where the camera is placed.)
5. This has a direct reduction in injuries (again from the second article) "DOT data shows that injuries decreased by 14 percent and speeding by 70 percent where the cameras are. "
In a large city, speeding is easiest or often only even possible when the congestion is light, because there aren't other drivers in your way to physically slow you down. Which is going to be late, overnight, or early morning hours. This is exactly when speed enforcement is needed, because we stupidly build roads to accommodate the heaviest traffic volumes, leaving them wide open and encouraging speeding all other times. I walk my dogs at 5:15am. I go for a run at 6:00am or I ride my bike to work at 6:30am. That is precisely when drivers are speeding (and blowing stop signs, but don't even get me started on that...) because there isn't congestion to slow them down and because they think "no one is around" they don't even look. I am not a child but I still deserve not to be killed by a speeding driver.
posted by misskaz at 10:35 AM on August 11, 2023 [94 favorites]
"Don't try to protect the children. That's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth."
"What truth?"
"There are no children."
"There are no children?"
"Then you will see, it is not the children that need protecting, only the local municipality's revenue stream."
posted by Hatashran at 10:36 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
"What truth?"
"There are no children."
"There are no children?"
"Then you will see, it is not the children that need protecting, only the local municipality's revenue stream."
posted by Hatashran at 10:36 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Please don't ask me to choose between my hatred of self-righteous rich pricks and my contempt for the crass money-making apparatus of the US police system.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:37 AM on August 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:37 AM on August 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
Hi, so, I've shared before that I'm a traffic safety researcher. I'll also note that I've contributed to a fair number of recent, high profile reports about speed cameras, speed management, etc. There are a lot of pretty interesting comments in this thread, and I do want to respond to a few of them:
1. I don't believe enforcement is the best method for getting compliance with traffic flaws/improving traffic safety. I think providing self-explaining roads and multimodal options (what we in the biz refer to as the Safe System Approach) is the most effective method. A lot of folks, even some of the architects of Vision Zero/Safe System, believe enforcement is a component of getting compliance, but research in the US has demonstrated that enforcement itself isn't going to get us there. A study from San Francisco , for example, showed a pretty steep decline in the efficacy of enforcement as soon as what's called high-visibility enforcement stopped. It's pretty hard to use deterrence to create lasting social changes.
2. It isn't speeding that kills, it's speed. The human body can only withstand so much kinetic energy. This report from WashDOT/Washington Traffic Safety Commission synthesizes the research and shows you've got about a 10% chance of fatality as a pedestrian at 20 mph, though that might be lower because, as IIHS has pointed out, modern SUVs are more lethal (because of more mass). Also, some research shows pedestrians can be killed at speeds as low as 5 mph (depending on demographics).
3. Research has shown, pretty consistently, that lower speed limits lower speeds and lower crash frequencies.
4. If you compare the US to much of the rest of the world, we're doing a real bad job at dealing with traffic deaths. A lot of that has to do with us having much higher speed limits (and high speeds!) than a lot of the rest of the world. The WHO dashboard is pretty cool for examining this topic.
5. I don't think Speed Safety Cameras (that's what the Feds call them now) are an end-solution, especially given the many equity impacts pointed out by researchers like Sutton. But many in the biz view SSC as a stopgap to help shift social norms around speeds, and that means leaving them on near places where vulnerable road users (like children) are likely to be, even when children aren't present. It's not perfect, and it needs to lead to long-term infrastructure changes and speed limit changes, but it is an attempt to create the expectation that high speeds are never okay.
6. This is a really complicated problem in the US for a variety of reasons, one of which is that our land development practices make it really hard to leverage the kinds of dense environments and multimodal options that make self-enforcing roads easier in Europe. The report has moved so I'm not sure where it lives now, but John Ivan led some good work examining elements of the built environment in the US that increase or decrease speeds, and the large setbacks we have here in a lot of the States are going to subconsciously trigger people to go faster.
7. Without good multimodal options and poor land development patterns, of course people are going to drive and going to be defensive when they feel they're ability to drive is threatened. That's why I don't really like the "Ban Cars" slogan you hear from a lot of advocates despite generally agreeing with the sentiment. We need to pretty radically alter our built environment to make it easier to get to places without a car while ensuring that those who do need to use cars are safe and keeping others safe.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 10:38 AM on August 11, 2023 [120 favorites]
1. I don't believe enforcement is the best method for getting compliance with traffic flaws/improving traffic safety. I think providing self-explaining roads and multimodal options (what we in the biz refer to as the Safe System Approach) is the most effective method. A lot of folks, even some of the architects of Vision Zero/Safe System, believe enforcement is a component of getting compliance, but research in the US has demonstrated that enforcement itself isn't going to get us there. A study from San Francisco , for example, showed a pretty steep decline in the efficacy of enforcement as soon as what's called high-visibility enforcement stopped. It's pretty hard to use deterrence to create lasting social changes.
2. It isn't speeding that kills, it's speed. The human body can only withstand so much kinetic energy. This report from WashDOT/Washington Traffic Safety Commission synthesizes the research and shows you've got about a 10% chance of fatality as a pedestrian at 20 mph, though that might be lower because, as IIHS has pointed out, modern SUVs are more lethal (because of more mass). Also, some research shows pedestrians can be killed at speeds as low as 5 mph (depending on demographics).
3. Research has shown, pretty consistently, that lower speed limits lower speeds and lower crash frequencies.
4. If you compare the US to much of the rest of the world, we're doing a real bad job at dealing with traffic deaths. A lot of that has to do with us having much higher speed limits (and high speeds!) than a lot of the rest of the world. The WHO dashboard is pretty cool for examining this topic.
5. I don't think Speed Safety Cameras (that's what the Feds call them now) are an end-solution, especially given the many equity impacts pointed out by researchers like Sutton. But many in the biz view SSC as a stopgap to help shift social norms around speeds, and that means leaving them on near places where vulnerable road users (like children) are likely to be, even when children aren't present. It's not perfect, and it needs to lead to long-term infrastructure changes and speed limit changes, but it is an attempt to create the expectation that high speeds are never okay.
6. This is a really complicated problem in the US for a variety of reasons, one of which is that our land development practices make it really hard to leverage the kinds of dense environments and multimodal options that make self-enforcing roads easier in Europe. The report has moved so I'm not sure where it lives now, but John Ivan led some good work examining elements of the built environment in the US that increase or decrease speeds, and the large setbacks we have here in a lot of the States are going to subconsciously trigger people to go faster.
7. Without good multimodal options and poor land development patterns, of course people are going to drive and going to be defensive when they feel they're ability to drive is threatened. That's why I don't really like the "Ban Cars" slogan you hear from a lot of advocates despite generally agreeing with the sentiment. We need to pretty radically alter our built environment to make it easier to get to places without a car while ensuring that those who do need to use cars are safe and keeping others safe.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 10:38 AM on August 11, 2023 [120 favorites]
misskaz, I've tried to explain the school zone / speeding ticket thing twice in this thread already. Thanks for trying a third time. No one will read your explanation either, they're all too much in a hurry to express their outrage/support about school zones and 5:40am. Metafilter is best when people come here with an open mind and try to learn something but that's not what this discussion is apparently going to be.
posted by Nelson at 10:40 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:40 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
From an ProPublica article in 2016, Unsafe at Many Speeds that directly talks about New York and speed limits and pedestrian fatalities:
According to Tefft's data, a person is about 70 percent more likely to be killed if they’re struck by a vehicle traveling at 30 mph versus 25 mph.posted by foxfirefey at 10:40 AM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
If you live in New York City, those two numbers may sound familiar. That’s because in the fall of 2014, Mayor Bill de Blasio signed a law lowering the default city speed limit from 30 mph to 25 mph. Speed limits are just one part of Vision Zero, a citywide initiative to create safer streets for all New Yorkers, who are seriously injured or killed by cars at a rate of one person every two hours. And there is some evidence that the initiative is working — 2015 saw the fewest traffic deaths recorded in NYC for any year since 1910 (a total of 231 deaths, 134 of which were pedestrians).
While some people see the speed limit adjustments as a traffic-slowing nuisance, for those who get hit, it could actually make a huge difference in how likely they are to survive.
“Indeed, the risk [of death] increases dramatically between 20–40 mph,” said Tobias Niebuhr in an email. Niebuhr’s a statistician at the University of Hamburg who studies pedestrian injury risk. He recently published a paper on how older people are much more likely to suffer serious injuries or be killed at all collision speeds.
Keep in mind that many of these estimates are based on small sample sizes (in the Tefft report, a group of 422 pedestrians) and may skew toward over-representing severe and fatal accidents. Furthermore, your risk of injury or death depends on all sorts of other things, like the size of the car, how much you weigh, from what angle you get hit, etc.
But other studies have shown similar trends in how much speed matters. In 2010 London’s Department for Transport reviewed the literature on impact speed and pedestrian safety and concluded that “the risk of fatality increases slowly until impact speeds of around 30 mph. Above this speed, risk increases rapidly — the increase is between 3.5 and 5.5 times from 30 mph to 40 mph.”
Please forgive my typos in that block of text!
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 10:42 AM on August 11, 2023
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 10:42 AM on August 11, 2023
Traffic laws are the vehicle by which the most privileged members of society convince themselves that they're actually the most oppressed.
I don't know whether this has anything to do with the experience of owning/driving a car or whether it's a result of decades of conservative propaganda, but it's amazing how quickly some people start ranting about 'mah freedom' after getting a speeding ticket.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:49 AM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
I don't know whether this has anything to do with the experience of owning/driving a car or whether it's a result of decades of conservative propaganda, but it's amazing how quickly some people start ranting about 'mah freedom' after getting a speeding ticket.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:49 AM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
I believe that all motorized vehicles should be fitted with GPS-connected governors such that they cannot exceed the local posted speed limit under any circumstances, and that the mandatory minimum sentence for purposefully disabling or overriding this device should be lifetime imprisonment.
I believe all motorized vehicles should be rigged with bombs such that they detonate if their speed falls below 50 mph.
posted by atoxyl at 10:50 AM on August 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
I believe all motorized vehicles should be rigged with bombs such that they detonate if their speed falls below 50 mph.
posted by atoxyl at 10:50 AM on August 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
How much do collisions due to speed cost a city? Everything from damage to infrastructure to EMT response to police time writing up collision reports? And the lost wages/revenue from those who are injured or killed? The healthcare costs? All of that cost and it's an outrage that the city might make some revenue because the only thing that slows people down is the possibility of a ticket? The fees that come in from vehicle owners, gas tax, etc don't come anywhere NEAR covering the cost of building and maintaining car infrastructure. Drivers are already being subsidized by everyone.
Listen, I would prefer not to have speed cameras. They're better than actual police out there giving tickets (lol which doesn't even happen) because of the bias in selective enforcement and potential for violence and escalation any time cops are involved, but not by much. There are things that need to be done right with them, and every time cities fuck it up due to poor signage or corruption in the contracts or where they place them or being limited to certain zones, it makes it harder to justify using them. I get it. But drivers are more aggressive and driving larger, more dangerous vehicles than ever, city leaders and DOTs don't have the political will or the funding or whatever to actually redesign our roads, and I'm kind of losing hope that either of those trends are going to change. So IDK. What are we supposed to do?
Maybe just don't speed. Once you get used to driving the speed limit it's really not hard. I'm a driver too, not just a cyclist and pedestrian.
posted by misskaz at 10:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
Listen, I would prefer not to have speed cameras. They're better than actual police out there giving tickets (lol which doesn't even happen) because of the bias in selective enforcement and potential for violence and escalation any time cops are involved, but not by much. There are things that need to be done right with them, and every time cities fuck it up due to poor signage or corruption in the contracts or where they place them or being limited to certain zones, it makes it harder to justify using them. I get it. But drivers are more aggressive and driving larger, more dangerous vehicles than ever, city leaders and DOTs don't have the political will or the funding or whatever to actually redesign our roads, and I'm kind of losing hope that either of those trends are going to change. So IDK. What are we supposed to do?
Maybe just don't speed. Once you get used to driving the speed limit it's really not hard. I'm a driver too, not just a cyclist and pedestrian.
posted by misskaz at 10:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
I believe that all motorized vehicles should be fitted with GPS-connected governors such that they cannot exceed the local posted speed limit under any circumstances
We're already there with self-driving cars right? Because who in their right might would expose themselves to the legal liability of programming a car to exceed the speed limit?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
We're already there with self-driving cars right? Because who in their right might would expose themselves to the legal liability of programming a car to exceed the speed limit?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am not a child but I still deserve not to be killed by a speeding driver.
To add to the points made by misskaz and Nelson:
People who use wheelchairs and canes and who have limited sight, mobility, and/or hearing also are navigating the street at all times of day and night, and they should be able to cross safely without worrying that they're going to be injured or killed by Mr./Ms. Leadfoot Motorist.
posted by virago at 10:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
To add to the points made by misskaz and Nelson:
People who use wheelchairs and canes and who have limited sight, mobility, and/or hearing also are navigating the street at all times of day and night, and they should be able to cross safely without worrying that they're going to be injured or killed by Mr./Ms. Leadfoot Motorist.
posted by virago at 10:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
A study from San Francisco, for example, showed a pretty steep decline in the efficacy of enforcement as soon as what's called high-visibility enforcement stopped.
Does all-hours enforcement by camera (preferably with posted warnings) not count as visible here, though? From what I’ve read about law enforcement and deterrence in general, making punishment consistent, even if minor (as opposed to inconsistent, arbitrarily severe, and occasionally played up for show) is the approach to deterrence that actually does something.
posted by atoxyl at 10:56 AM on August 11, 2023
Does all-hours enforcement by camera (preferably with posted warnings) not count as visible here, though? From what I’ve read about law enforcement and deterrence in general, making punishment consistent, even if minor (as opposed to inconsistent, arbitrarily severe, and occasionally played up for show) is the approach to deterrence that actually does something.
posted by atoxyl at 10:56 AM on August 11, 2023
Does all-hours enforcement by camera (preferably with posted warnings) not count as visible here, though?
I would say it does, and I tried to address that with point 5, though I may not have linked the ideas together as well. If we need to use enforcement, SSC turned on all the time, with clearly visible signs and transparent fees, is probably the best way to do it.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 10:59 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would say it does, and I tried to address that with point 5, though I may not have linked the ideas together as well. If we need to use enforcement, SSC turned on all the time, with clearly visible signs and transparent fees, is probably the best way to do it.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 10:59 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
And making it no-contact and just sending a bill in the mail removes the inherent risk of a police encounter so as a whole this seems like a relatively smart and progressive way to enforce traffic laws.
posted by atoxyl at 10:59 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 10:59 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
School zones don't cease to exist outside of school hours.
Yeah, they kinda do. At least as far as speed enforcement goes. In my neck of the woods, every school zone is clearly marked by signage, along with the hours of enforcement.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:00 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, they kinda do. At least as far as speed enforcement goes. In my neck of the woods, every school zone is clearly marked by signage, along with the hours of enforcement.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:00 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
And making it no-contact and just sending a bill in the mail
it is my understanding that that is the way they do it in France. It's an administrative process, not a criminal one.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:01 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
it is my understanding that that is the way they do it in France. It's an administrative process, not a criminal one.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:01 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
(even as I agree that under the circumstances some clarity about the actual enforcement might have been lacking)
posted by atoxyl at 11:01 AM on August 11, 2023
posted by atoxyl at 11:01 AM on August 11, 2023
We're all agreed that the speed limit in general was 25 here right?
posted by ominous_paws at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
People assume that those outraged about the school zone aren’t listening to the fact that the speed limit is the same elsewhere. This is, at least for me, not the case. I don’t care that it would have been speeding at any other time. If the legislature has determined that cameras are only acceptable for school zones, the solution if NYC doesn’t like it is not to improperly, against the intent of the legislature, expand school zones, the solution is to go back and find a legislative solution.
He is right to complain whether or not he was speeding.
posted by corb at 11:19 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
He is right to complain whether or not he was speeding.
posted by corb at 11:19 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
36 in a 25? Well there's your problem, everyone knows it's risky to go more than 10 over. 11 over? You get what you get and you don't get upset.
In my jurisdiction in Maryland, the tickets you get from cameras specifically refer to the fact that you were going 12 mph or greater over the posted speed limit, so the gray zone is actually coded into the system in some sense.
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:20 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
In my jurisdiction in Maryland, the tickets you get from cameras specifically refer to the fact that you were going 12 mph or greater over the posted speed limit, so the gray zone is actually coded into the system in some sense.
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:20 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here in Chicago they dropped speed camera enforcement from 10 over the limit to 6 over the limit and drivers are BIG MAD. (Not me, I don't find it hard to drive the speed limit.) Obviously there has to be some wiggle room as speedometers differ and it's impossible not to drift a little bit up or down as you're driving. The question then becomes what is reasonable? At what point is going over the speed limit an immutable fact of driving that involves pushing down on a gas pedal and adjusting based on how your car reacts, and at what point is it intentional (or at least thoughtless)? Maybe 6mph is too little of a buffer, I don't know.
posted by misskaz at 11:24 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by misskaz at 11:24 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe NYC is just incredibly far into the future, but here on the other coast, the prevailing situation is that there is zero enforcement of any traffic laws whether they be speeding or parking or running red lights. There are conversations about possibly maybe having a few traffic cameras, but the pro-privacy/anti-surveillance people and the cars-above-all people have combined forces to oppose it and will probably win.
Normal people will raise a stink about getting traffic tickets, "why don't they find some real crime?!" and I guess with understaffing and indifference, the police did just that.
--
When I first joined Twitter, it suggested David Simon to follow. I've watched the Wire and Generation Kill, I figured as a writer he would be good with words, and I followed him.
He got into a similar fight with the entire internet a day later. I was only following a few people, so my entire feed was just him responding to (and pouring gas on) every single commenter. I had to unfollow. He's been doing this for a while, definitely.
posted by meowzilla at 11:25 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Normal people will raise a stink about getting traffic tickets, "why don't they find some real crime?!" and I guess with understaffing and indifference, the police did just that.
--
When I first joined Twitter, it suggested David Simon to follow. I've watched the Wire and Generation Kill, I figured as a writer he would be good with words, and I followed him.
He got into a similar fight with the entire internet a day later. I was only following a few people, so my entire feed was just him responding to (and pouring gas on) every single commenter. I had to unfollow. He's been doing this for a while, definitely.
posted by meowzilla at 11:25 AM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
A much bigger problem is that this asshole employed and defended known sex pest, James Franco.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:26 AM on August 11, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:26 AM on August 11, 2023
Apparently speed cameras are illegal in the entire state of California: Assembly Bill 645 would bring back speed cameras to California. What could possibly go wrong?
posted by meowzilla at 11:34 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by meowzilla at 11:34 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
This whole argument could have been settled with a sign that said "SPEED LIMIT 25"
> We're all agreed that the speed limit in general was 25 here right?
No, we're not. 25 is the school zone speed limit and the NY speed limit if not otherwise posted. But if there were signs in the surrounding area was 35, then we could understand why David Simon would expect the speed limit was 35 if school wasn't in session (which is how school zones work everywhere else.) Except apparently in NY the school zone limit applies all the time? In which case, why not just have that be the posted speed limit? It's unnecessarily confusing. You might as well say "The speed limit is 35, but that's in metric. And base 8 numbering. It's been that way since 2017. It's up to you to know the law."
Or maybe not. Because we don't know the answer to any of the questions about the basic facts of his particular situation, so I don't see how anyone can take a position either way on this.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:34 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
> We're all agreed that the speed limit in general was 25 here right?
No, we're not. 25 is the school zone speed limit and the NY speed limit if not otherwise posted. But if there were signs in the surrounding area was 35, then we could understand why David Simon would expect the speed limit was 35 if school wasn't in session (which is how school zones work everywhere else.) Except apparently in NY the school zone limit applies all the time? In which case, why not just have that be the posted speed limit? It's unnecessarily confusing. You might as well say "The speed limit is 35, but that's in metric. And base 8 numbering. It's been that way since 2017. It's up to you to know the law."
Or maybe not. Because we don't know the answer to any of the questions about the basic facts of his particular situation, so I don't see how anyone can take a position either way on this.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:34 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mr Simon should rightfully fight for revenue from traffic enforcement be funneled into evidence-based, safety-focused road re-design and transit instead of the cop donut fund. Then he's got my vote!
posted by latkes at 11:38 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by latkes at 11:38 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, he's a jerk.
Recently I started a new job. I'm 52 and this is the first job I have ever had where I need to drive to work. In the past I have either walked, taken public transit or rode my bike. But I am forced to drive to this new job. It's 40+ minutes... for 6.7 miles. Just sitting in traffic in Chicago.
Anyway, what grinds my gears is the school zone speed signs in town. "20 MPH on School Days when Children are Present" is how they are worded. I have no problem driving 20MPH in a school zone, or any zone for that matter. But why add the qualifiers? If it's Wednesday and there are no kids around? How can anyone be sure there's no kids present? What about Saturday but there are kids everywhere? What about Wednesday in the summer, and I don't see any kids... but maybe they are little and are concealed behind a parked SUV or something? What if it's 2am in the summer?
Just make the zones 20MPH. Period. I'm fine driving at slow speeds, but don't make the signs into weird puzzles. The way the signage is posted is just stupid, and it's like this all over this huge city with dozens, maybe hundreds of schools and parks!
posted by SoberHighland at 11:40 AM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Recently I started a new job. I'm 52 and this is the first job I have ever had where I need to drive to work. In the past I have either walked, taken public transit or rode my bike. But I am forced to drive to this new job. It's 40+ minutes... for 6.7 miles. Just sitting in traffic in Chicago.
Anyway, what grinds my gears is the school zone speed signs in town. "20 MPH on School Days when Children are Present" is how they are worded. I have no problem driving 20MPH in a school zone, or any zone for that matter. But why add the qualifiers? If it's Wednesday and there are no kids around? How can anyone be sure there's no kids present? What about Saturday but there are kids everywhere? What about Wednesday in the summer, and I don't see any kids... but maybe they are little and are concealed behind a parked SUV or something? What if it's 2am in the summer?
Just make the zones 20MPH. Period. I'm fine driving at slow speeds, but don't make the signs into weird puzzles. The way the signage is posted is just stupid, and it's like this all over this huge city with dozens, maybe hundreds of schools and parks!
posted by SoberHighland at 11:40 AM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
People assume that those outraged about the school zone aren’t listening to the fact that the speed limit is the same elsewhere. This is, at least for me, not the case. I don’t care that it would have been speeding at any other time. If the legislature has determined that cameras are only acceptable for school zones, the solution if NYC doesn’t like it is not to improperly, against the intent of the legislature, expand school zones, the solution is to go back and find a legislative solution.
It's not against the intent of the legislature though! The state enacted a law last summer that explicitly authorized NYC to use school zone speed cameras 24/7.
posted by bassooner at 11:40 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
It's not against the intent of the legislature though! The state enacted a law last summer that explicitly authorized NYC to use school zone speed cameras 24/7.
posted by bassooner at 11:40 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
I've also always hated that in Chicago, school zone speed limit signs say "on school days" and then below that, "when children are present". It's not even clear if those are AND or OR statements. As if you can see if some kindergartener is approaching a crosswalk when you're flying by at 40mph. Half the point of slowing down is so you are going slow enough to see with enough reaction time to do something if you need to avoid a collision. Such a stupid fucking sign. I just go the school zone limit regardless of whether it's a school day.
To go back to NYC, I also wonder what IS the legislature's intent in designating school zones. If they wanted them to have a time element in addition to location, wouldn't they have included that? For example, I know that in some communities, drug and/or weapons offenses carry mandatory increased penalties if the offense was in a school or playground zone. Do those increased penalties only apply during the school year? If children are present? Between the hours of 7am and 3pm?
Hahaha on preview SoberHighland, jinx!
posted by misskaz at 11:41 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
To go back to NYC, I also wonder what IS the legislature's intent in designating school zones. If they wanted them to have a time element in addition to location, wouldn't they have included that? For example, I know that in some communities, drug and/or weapons offenses carry mandatory increased penalties if the offense was in a school or playground zone. Do those increased penalties only apply during the school year? If children are present? Between the hours of 7am and 3pm?
Hahaha on preview SoberHighland, jinx!
posted by misskaz at 11:41 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
JFC. People, the speed limit for NYC city street is 25MPH and it's been 25MPH for almost a decade. If this guy didn't know that, it's his problem not NYC's problem. Guess what? You also aren't allowed to make a right turn at a red light. And, believe it or not, there are plenty of way to get into the City that aren't festooned with signs pointing this out.
The school zone is only relevant to the extent that traffic cameras are only allowed in school zones. It is completely immaterial with respect to the speed limit. He wasn't speeding because he was in a school zone. He was speeding for anywhere in NYC. He was caught by a traffic camera because he was speeding in a school zone.
posted by slkinsey at 11:44 AM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
The school zone is only relevant to the extent that traffic cameras are only allowed in school zones. It is completely immaterial with respect to the speed limit. He wasn't speeding because he was in a school zone. He was speeding for anywhere in NYC. He was caught by a traffic camera because he was speeding in a school zone.
posted by slkinsey at 11:44 AM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
Shit, speeding ain’t no thing, but this is some school zone shit!
posted by snofoam at 11:45 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 11:45 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
He is right to complain whether or not he was speeding.
No. He was speeding. 36 mph in a city-wide 25mph zone is speeding.
If the legislature has determined that cameras are only acceptable for school zones, the solution if NYC doesn’t like it is not to improperly, against the intent of the legislature, expand school zones, the solution is to go back and find a legislative solution.
The legislation authorizes the cameras to be used in school zones. In fact, the most recent legislation actually lifts the previously-imposed limit of only using the cameras during daytime hours. So your argument about the legislature's intent doesn't hold water. They intended the cameras to be used to enforce traffic whether school was in session or not.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
No. He was speeding. 36 mph in a city-wide 25mph zone is speeding.
If the legislature has determined that cameras are only acceptable for school zones, the solution if NYC doesn’t like it is not to improperly, against the intent of the legislature, expand school zones, the solution is to go back and find a legislative solution.
The legislation authorizes the cameras to be used in school zones. In fact, the most recent legislation actually lifts the previously-imposed limit of only using the cameras during daytime hours. So your argument about the legislature's intent doesn't hold water. They intended the cameras to be used to enforce traffic whether school was in session or not.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Apparently David Simon loves getting caught speeding so much he's done it 16 times in Baltimore.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 11:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 11:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
Isn't one of the purposes of Twitter just to pop off whatever random thing is annoying you? I guess it becomes more newsworthy because it's David Simon, but that's also one of the purposes of it. We get to see that the same thing that annoys me or you annoys him too and engage with that.
For the record I'm on team automatic speed enforcement all the time and would add parking enforcement to that as well because the police and by-law officers are useless here (Toronto). Would still be annoyed if I got a ticket though.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
For the record I'm on team automatic speed enforcement all the time and would add parking enforcement to that as well because the police and by-law officers are useless here (Toronto). Would still be annoyed if I got a ticket though.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
The traffic camera in a school zone is the one true dictatorship in America.
posted by snofoam at 11:56 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snofoam at 11:56 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
One of my hopes with the (seemingly) inevitable death of twitter is that people wouldn't care what random C-list celebs are talking about.
posted by No One Ever Does at 11:56 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by No One Ever Does at 11:56 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
There’s never been a paper bag for moderate speeding.
posted by snofoam at 11:58 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 11:58 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Is you taking notes on a school zone conspiracy?
posted by dr_dank at 12:01 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 12:01 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Everybody gets paid, and everybody's got a fucking future.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:03 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:03 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
...people wouldn't care what random C-list celebs are talking about.
just the Internet version of gossiping over a cup of tea. As with all things, moderation is key, but a little mild, mostly inconsequential gossip is SO satisfying. Feeds something in the soul.
Maybe that part of the soul is ugly, but it's there in so many of us, and it craves drama
posted by Baethan at 12:06 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
just the Internet version of gossiping over a cup of tea. As with all things, moderation is key, but a little mild, mostly inconsequential gossip is SO satisfying. Feeds something in the soul.
Maybe that part of the soul is ugly, but it's there in so many of us, and it craves drama
posted by Baethan at 12:06 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
If the traffic camera is fucking you, you find a way to fuck it back.
posted by box at 12:07 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by box at 12:07 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've seen a tiny-ass school zone traffic cam catch a speeder plenty of days, man. You earned that ticket like a motherfucker. Keep that shit.
posted by snofoam at 12:08 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:08 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
from threementholsandafuneral's link about how Simon apparently loves to speed around Baltimore:
Simon appears to be driving a small Lexuscrapbox suv like the NX, which actually scores pretty decent for it's class on the NCAP pedestrian collision test.
posted by zenon at 12:23 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Simon's streak of dangerous driving in 2021 would have easily qualified him for the vehicle seizure program had the violations been committed in New York.So he's real familiar with getting busted speeding and is just shooting his mouth off online about NYC. Deleting his account seems like the smart advice at this point.
Simon appears to be driving a small Lexus
posted by zenon at 12:23 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've gotten tickets on a bicycle that were more than that. What a whiner.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:32 PM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:32 PM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
...there's a debate in several California cities about whether to expand our use of speed and red light cameras because they tend to have racist outcomes. The key reporting here is Chicago’s “Race-Neutral” Traffic Cameras Ticket Black and Latino Drivers the Most (2022). The root cause is the neighborhoods that have the kind of streets that benefit most from cameras also tend to be places Black and Latino people live and drive.
Well, that, and you see what happens when they put them in places where affluent white people drive.
posted by Naberius at 12:34 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, that, and you see what happens when they put them in places where affluent white people drive.
posted by Naberius at 12:34 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
If there is a Season Six of The Wire, maybe it could be about traffic violations -- like, what if there was a privately funded off-the-books aerial surveillance program helping Baltimore police chase down dirt bike riders? Jimmy McNulty could go on a rant about his $50 speeding ticket, which would provide an interesting contrast...
posted by credulous at 12:36 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by credulous at 12:36 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
If there is a Season Six of The Wire, maybe it could be about traffic violations
You come at the king, you best not speed.
posted by thivaia at 12:40 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
You come at the king, you best not speed.
posted by thivaia at 12:40 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Season Seven of The Wire could be a prequel to the Oscar-nominated Green Book, where white savior Tony Lip has to go back to a Baltimore driving school after one too many speeding tickets, and he learns more about himself and the humanity of Baltimore schoolchildren.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:43 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:43 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here in Chicago they dropped speed camera enforcement from 10 over the limit to 6 over the limit and drivers are BIG MAD.
I've lived in Chicago for a decade and the traffic camera story is hilarious. This city is stupidly corrupt. Managerial ghost jobs everywhere, city services running like it is 1975, my alderman ran a covid speakeasy when restaurants where shutdown, Com-Ed bribery criminal charges all the time but the bribe results still in effect, a rapey park district, a police consent decree going unimplimented and unenforced, mayors selling out the public, public housing land going to pro soccer owners while public housing waits twenty years to be built....
but the hot button issue of all hot button issues is.... speeding cameras and red-light cameras which are almost as restricted as food trucks. They are only allowed in a very few areas where they can demonstrate the existence of humans we should care about which apparently excludes everyone except very small children and even then we only worry about them on their way to and from school or parks.
I'm a pedestrian or a cyclist. I never drive. I've lived in Chicago for almost 11 years now. I stay away from the high speed stroads as much as I can. I've been hit by cars twice crossing at stop signs. Fortunately, I was hit by cars that were stopped and then went even though I was crossing in plain sight so no major injuries. I've been almost hit probably every second or third day despite the fact that I do not jaywalk. I'd probably be safer if I did jaywalk. My first week in the city I had to actually dive and roll to avoid an unmarked police SUV with 6 cops in it (no emergency lights or siren) that blew through an intersection. I almost got nailed by one of Penny Pritzker's security entourage's SUVs (she was the 'entrepreneur' that Obama made the secretary of commerce) that apexed the corner of a 4 way stop while speeding. Marked crosswalks in the city are really just murder zones in Chicago. I think maybe one in ten drivers even knows what they are.
But if you read the Chicago Tribune you'd know the real problems in Chicago are some ostensibly borderline speeding tickets or red-light running tickets where people did break the law but for some reason deserve the grace of a wide enough positive margin of error that collisions with pedestrians or cyclists go from serious to disabling or deadly. Every driver will talk about the possible margin of error on their speedometer in a traffic light debate but apparently none can make the logical leap to driving a bit slower to preclude the risk of an inaccurate measurement. The tickets don't even have insurance consequences (because they outlawed that - "do the crime,you won't have to do all the time!" Consequences are for chumps!). Funny how the newspaper that constantly pumps for law and order suddenly calls for leniency when the enforcement is automated and their readership's F.O.P. or Police Memorial Fund licence plate holder or sheer suburban privilege can't get them out of it.
Put the fucking cameras up everywhere and ticket all the violators.
posted by srboisvert at 12:50 PM on August 11, 2023 [30 favorites]
I've lived in Chicago for a decade and the traffic camera story is hilarious. This city is stupidly corrupt. Managerial ghost jobs everywhere, city services running like it is 1975, my alderman ran a covid speakeasy when restaurants where shutdown, Com-Ed bribery criminal charges all the time but the bribe results still in effect, a rapey park district, a police consent decree going unimplimented and unenforced, mayors selling out the public, public housing land going to pro soccer owners while public housing waits twenty years to be built....
but the hot button issue of all hot button issues is.... speeding cameras and red-light cameras which are almost as restricted as food trucks. They are only allowed in a very few areas where they can demonstrate the existence of humans we should care about which apparently excludes everyone except very small children and even then we only worry about them on their way to and from school or parks.
I'm a pedestrian or a cyclist. I never drive. I've lived in Chicago for almost 11 years now. I stay away from the high speed stroads as much as I can. I've been hit by cars twice crossing at stop signs. Fortunately, I was hit by cars that were stopped and then went even though I was crossing in plain sight so no major injuries. I've been almost hit probably every second or third day despite the fact that I do not jaywalk. I'd probably be safer if I did jaywalk. My first week in the city I had to actually dive and roll to avoid an unmarked police SUV with 6 cops in it (no emergency lights or siren) that blew through an intersection. I almost got nailed by one of Penny Pritzker's security entourage's SUVs (she was the 'entrepreneur' that Obama made the secretary of commerce) that apexed the corner of a 4 way stop while speeding. Marked crosswalks in the city are really just murder zones in Chicago. I think maybe one in ten drivers even knows what they are.
But if you read the Chicago Tribune you'd know the real problems in Chicago are some ostensibly borderline speeding tickets or red-light running tickets where people did break the law but for some reason deserve the grace of a wide enough positive margin of error that collisions with pedestrians or cyclists go from serious to disabling or deadly. Every driver will talk about the possible margin of error on their speedometer in a traffic light debate but apparently none can make the logical leap to driving a bit slower to preclude the risk of an inaccurate measurement. The tickets don't even have insurance consequences (because they outlawed that - "do the crime,you won't have to do all the time!" Consequences are for chumps!). Funny how the newspaper that constantly pumps for law and order suddenly calls for leniency when the enforcement is automated and their readership's F.O.P. or Police Memorial Fund licence plate holder or sheer suburban privilege can't get them out of it.
Put the fucking cameras up everywhere and ticket all the violators.
posted by srboisvert at 12:50 PM on August 11, 2023 [30 favorites]
srboisvert: Holy cow!
I'll just add my take on Chicago street safety, as I'm tired of Chicago being constantly portrayed in a negative light. I'm 52, born and raised in the city. I even lived near the Loop and then the South Loop for 16 years. Lived in Logan Square in the 90s, grew up in Bowmanville. I'm in west Edgewater now. Lived 5 years in another state in my 20s, but otherwise a city resident my entire life. I didn't own a car for 16 years as an adult, and walked and rode my bike everywhere. Wife and I share one car these days, and I still walk and bike often.
I have not had the crazy streak of bad luck you seem to have had in Chicago. Luckily I have never been hit by a car walking or biking, and maybe have had a couple close calls in all my 40 or so years wandering around town. Been in one collision ... back in the early 90s I got T-boned by a dude who blew through a red light, got out of his car and started yammering about how his brakes were bad!.. thankfully no one was seriously hurt but my car was totaled and he hit me so hard I hit into two parked cars. No one I know has had a bad run like what you describe. Not even close.
I believe your stories, but you seem to be an outlier as far as automobile problems in Chicago go!
posted by SoberHighland at 1:01 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'll just add my take on Chicago street safety, as I'm tired of Chicago being constantly portrayed in a negative light. I'm 52, born and raised in the city. I even lived near the Loop and then the South Loop for 16 years. Lived in Logan Square in the 90s, grew up in Bowmanville. I'm in west Edgewater now. Lived 5 years in another state in my 20s, but otherwise a city resident my entire life. I didn't own a car for 16 years as an adult, and walked and rode my bike everywhere. Wife and I share one car these days, and I still walk and bike often.
I have not had the crazy streak of bad luck you seem to have had in Chicago. Luckily I have never been hit by a car walking or biking, and maybe have had a couple close calls in all my 40 or so years wandering around town. Been in one collision ... back in the early 90s I got T-boned by a dude who blew through a red light, got out of his car and started yammering about how his brakes were bad!.. thankfully no one was seriously hurt but my car was totaled and he hit me so hard I hit into two parked cars. No one I know has had a bad run like what you describe. Not even close.
I believe your stories, but you seem to be an outlier as far as automobile problems in Chicago go!
posted by SoberHighland at 1:01 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
omg, just yesterday I was talking with the head cook and he was going to watch The sopranos which he never saw and I am going to rewatch The Wire..
interesting, a lot of towns revert back to the standard speed limit when school is out of session or the middle of the night it's called a little flashing light and if the protagonist above did not heed a little light that he deserves a hundred and fifty dollar fine.
posted by clavdivs at 1:16 PM on August 11, 2023
interesting, a lot of towns revert back to the standard speed limit when school is out of session or the middle of the night it's called a little flashing light and if the protagonist above did not heed a little light that he deserves a hundred and fifty dollar fine.
posted by clavdivs at 1:16 PM on August 11, 2023
There are conversations about possibly maybe having a few traffic cameras…
From my assiduous watching of British police shows, I am led to believe that London is blanketed with traffic cams that enable the police to follow bad guys from pillar to post, ultimately tracking them down and arresting them before the hour is up. I’m amazed that US police haven’t lobbied hard for this instead of relying on store security cams and ring doorbells.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:18 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
From my assiduous watching of British police shows, I am led to believe that London is blanketed with traffic cams that enable the police to follow bad guys from pillar to post, ultimately tracking them down and arresting them before the hour is up. I’m amazed that US police haven’t lobbied hard for this instead of relying on store security cams and ring doorbells.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:18 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's important to note that NYC has a citywide 25MPH speed limit, unless otherwise posted. So basically he's complaining abut breaking the law and getting caught.
Fuck off, Simon.
posted by rhymedirective at 1:24 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Fuck off, Simon.
posted by rhymedirective at 1:24 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, $50? He's lucky NYC doesn't do speeding tickets like Finland, which bases the fine on your daily income divided by 2.
I'm sure Simon makes more than $36,500 a year.
posted by rhymedirective at 1:26 PM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm sure Simon makes more than $36,500 a year.
posted by rhymedirective at 1:26 PM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
What sort of off-brand cityOh, the irony.
Go back to Baltimore, crab boy.
posted by Flunkie at 1:44 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know about Chicago but my experience being a pedestrian/cyclist in the urban parts of the Bay Area is pretty close to srboisvert. Like if I go a day without throwing up my hands at some asshole to plowed through a crosswalk where I am *pushing my baby's stroller* it is a lucky day. And it's been worse since COVID.
posted by muddgirl at 1:48 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 1:48 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
When I just see their names and not immediate references to their work, I often get David Simon and Larry David confused, so for a minute this all seemed extremely on-brand and I was very confused.
As someone who would occasionally look at David Simon's Twitter, (before giving up in frustration), this is extremely on-brand for David Simon, too.
posted by creepygirl at 1:50 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
As someone who would occasionally look at David Simon's Twitter, (before giving up in frustration), this is extremely on-brand for David Simon, too.
posted by creepygirl at 1:50 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just walked 4 blocks each way to the nearby Walgreens and watched multiple cars just run full speed through stop signs. (I happen to be collecting videos of this because no one seems to believe me how brazen it is.) Sure there weren't any close calls because I wasn't crossing, but they easily could have been. Lately I stop before I even get to an intersection if I so much as hear a car because I got tired of the "oh shit" stop after they are halfway through the intersection IF they eventually see me. I 100% believe srboisvert's experiences.
posted by misskaz at 2:03 PM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 2:03 PM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
I prefer vibes-based speed limits. Sometime five over, mostly five under, just whatever speed feels right.
posted by slogger at 2:09 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by slogger at 2:09 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is there a term for lashing out after being reprimanded? Before I judge this guy too harshly, I have to remember that I have basically the same reaction: How dare they! Yes I did the thing, but I was justified! This is unfair!
Not sure if there is a term for the ensuing defensiveness, but basically the feeling you are describing is called fundamental attribution error. ie, when someone else does something wrong, it's because they are fundamentally an asshole, whereas when I do something wrong, I'm still fundamentally a good person, I was just a victim of circumstance.
posted by solotoro at 2:22 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not sure if there is a term for the ensuing defensiveness, but basically the feeling you are describing is called fundamental attribution error. ie, when someone else does something wrong, it's because they are fundamentally an asshole, whereas when I do something wrong, I'm still fundamentally a good person, I was just a victim of circumstance.
posted by solotoro at 2:22 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh, the irony.
Go back to Baltimore, crab boy.
Hey now, there's no need to trash talk Baltimore here.
Anyway, it does seem dumb for the city to claim this ticket is about speeding in a school zone and not just make it a normal speeding ticket, but ultimately this seems like a petty thing to get bent out of shape over. Most cities I've lived in only enforce school zone speed limits at set hours of the day, so I can see his confusion, but given the whole city is 25mph (very reasonable given the number of pedestrians, cyclists, etc) it's not like he just failed to slow when entering the school zone.
Here in Chicago they dropped speed camera enforcement from 10 over the limit to 6 over the limit and drivers are BIG MAD.
In New Orleans, you can be fined for going 4 miles over the 20mph limit. I'm all for making pedestrians safer, but it was an absurd rule, especially since sometimes the school zones could really sneak up on you - if you turned onto a street in the middle of a school zone, you might see the "Leaving School Zone" sign without ever seeing the "Entering School Zone" sign. After I got my first ticket (for 4mph over!), I avoided driving when the cameras were on, at least unless I was confident I knew any potential school zone en route.
posted by coffeecat at 2:23 PM on August 11, 2023
Go back to Baltimore, crab boy.
Hey now, there's no need to trash talk Baltimore here.
Anyway, it does seem dumb for the city to claim this ticket is about speeding in a school zone and not just make it a normal speeding ticket, but ultimately this seems like a petty thing to get bent out of shape over. Most cities I've lived in only enforce school zone speed limits at set hours of the day, so I can see his confusion, but given the whole city is 25mph (very reasonable given the number of pedestrians, cyclists, etc) it's not like he just failed to slow when entering the school zone.
Here in Chicago they dropped speed camera enforcement from 10 over the limit to 6 over the limit and drivers are BIG MAD.
In New Orleans, you can be fined for going 4 miles over the 20mph limit. I'm all for making pedestrians safer, but it was an absurd rule, especially since sometimes the school zones could really sneak up on you - if you turned onto a street in the middle of a school zone, you might see the "Leaving School Zone" sign without ever seeing the "Entering School Zone" sign. After I got my first ticket (for 4mph over!), I avoided driving when the cameras were on, at least unless I was confident I knew any potential school zone en route.
posted by coffeecat at 2:23 PM on August 11, 2023
I adore David Simon but, as a handicapped person who has to cross several high-traffic thoroughfares on a regular basis, the difference of 10mph often makes me feel like I'm playing Frogger.
posted by Token Meme at 2:53 PM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Token Meme at 2:53 PM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
If there is a Season Six of The Wire, maybe it could be about traffic violations
Sir, do you know why I stopped you?
You want it to be One Way, but it's the other way.
posted by snofoam at 3:04 PM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Sir, do you know why I stopped you?
You want it to be One Way, but it's the other way.
posted by snofoam at 3:04 PM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Can't believe the number of people suggesting that having speed limits on a stretch of road be variable by time of day or year is somehow less confusing and nonsensical than consistently enforcing speed limits near schools. You might know when school is in session, but some dickhead will get it wrong. Do you want that dickhead going 40 past the school gates because they didn't realise there were after school clubs, or that a particular school hadn't broken up for the holidays yet, or was running a summer school programme? Consistency is more straightforward for everyone, and you don't get potentially lethal honest mistakes.
posted by Dysk at 3:59 PM on August 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 3:59 PM on August 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
Are people actually saying that the real problem isn't people illegally speeding at all hours of the morning? The real problem is that the cameras should be off at night (i.e. over aggressive enforcement)? I'm guessing the people who are saying this are not New Yorkers, because traffic violations here are massively, massively underenforced. I doubt more than a tiny fraction of 1% of speeders, red light runners, stop sign runners, turn signal non-users, illegal u-turners, etc., are caught.
And, don't know about you guys, but if they are going to selectively enforce crimes, yeah, I'm okay with it being the rich, entitled guy who gets caught for a change.
posted by xigxag at 4:27 PM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
And, don't know about you guys, but if they are going to selectively enforce crimes, yeah, I'm okay with it being the rich, entitled guy who gets caught for a change.
posted by xigxag at 4:27 PM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Hey now, there's no need to trash talk Baltimore here.
leading up to the post-season, I'm afraid the trash-talk spigot must remain wide open. Go Blue Jays.
posted by elkevelvet at 4:40 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
leading up to the post-season, I'm afraid the trash-talk spigot must remain wide open. Go Blue Jays.
posted by elkevelvet at 4:40 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
For a bit more than 30 years, I've never exceed the limit by more than 4mph. As someone mentioned, it's easy when you get used to it. For me, to my surprise, the biggest benefit is that it's greatly reduced my stress when driving — it's a change of mindset that involved my realizing that most of the time speeding in the city doesn't result in saving more than a few minutes of time. So I don't feel the sense of urgency I did when I sped.
Oh, also I just remembered that for a long while after I stopped speeding I was amazed at how nice it was to not worry about watching for cops. When I was young, I sped so badly that always being aware of where a police car might be was completely integrated into my defensive driving habits.
The first ten or so years of my driving (I've been licensed since I was 15) were way over at the other extreme — I got probably a couple dozen moving violation tickets, more than half of those as a teen. Hell, I got my first ticket at 14, driving without a license and doing donuts in the snow in a grocery store parking lot. And at 16 I got about six all at one time, and an arrest, in a high-speed police chase. I, uh, had some issues when I was young.
Anyway, my personal experience at both extremes of habits is that not speeding has resulted in a huge decrease of anxiety and such. There are a whole host of things that contribute to the unpleasantness of driving, but one's mindset and habits are among the biggest. I find it very unpleasant to ride with stressed-out drivers and it sort of feels like many people kind of masochistically embrace that whole experience.
This comment was motivated by my surprise at how many people in this thread apparently speed most of the time at 10 or more mph above the limit. I'd have expected mefites to be otherwise.
I think the most objectionable thing about this with Simon is how incredibly entitled his attitude is. He was speeding (not insignificantly), I'm not sure why he "needed" to speed at 5:40am, he has a scofflaw driving history, the fucking fine was an incredibly low amount of $50 (seriously, wtf?), his outrage (per his tweets) is all about picking nits about what "school zone" should mean, and he publicly digs in on this when, you know, it almost couldn't be less important. It's almost a caricature of affluent white guy assholery.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:40 PM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
Oh, also I just remembered that for a long while after I stopped speeding I was amazed at how nice it was to not worry about watching for cops. When I was young, I sped so badly that always being aware of where a police car might be was completely integrated into my defensive driving habits.
The first ten or so years of my driving (I've been licensed since I was 15) were way over at the other extreme — I got probably a couple dozen moving violation tickets, more than half of those as a teen. Hell, I got my first ticket at 14, driving without a license and doing donuts in the snow in a grocery store parking lot. And at 16 I got about six all at one time, and an arrest, in a high-speed police chase. I, uh, had some issues when I was young.
Anyway, my personal experience at both extremes of habits is that not speeding has resulted in a huge decrease of anxiety and such. There are a whole host of things that contribute to the unpleasantness of driving, but one's mindset and habits are among the biggest. I find it very unpleasant to ride with stressed-out drivers and it sort of feels like many people kind of masochistically embrace that whole experience.
This comment was motivated by my surprise at how many people in this thread apparently speed most of the time at 10 or more mph above the limit. I'd have expected mefites to be otherwise.
I think the most objectionable thing about this with Simon is how incredibly entitled his attitude is. He was speeding (not insignificantly), I'm not sure why he "needed" to speed at 5:40am, he has a scofflaw driving history, the fucking fine was an incredibly low amount of $50 (seriously, wtf?), his outrage (per his tweets) is all about picking nits about what "school zone" should mean, and he publicly digs in on this when, you know, it almost couldn't be less important. It's almost a caricature of affluent white guy assholery.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:40 PM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
prefer vibes-based speed limits. Sometime five over, mostly five under, just whatever speed feels right.
I don't know if you were trying to be facetious but this is how speed limits would ideally work. Driving surfaces should be designed to naturally make drivers feel that a safe speed is a comfortable speed. That going over that comfortable speed should feel dangerous. Unfortunately we're put stroads in what should be pedestrian priority areas and it is basically impossible to control them this way while still maintaining their stroadness.
posted by Mitheral at 5:11 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't know if you were trying to be facetious but this is how speed limits would ideally work. Driving surfaces should be designed to naturally make drivers feel that a safe speed is a comfortable speed. That going over that comfortable speed should feel dangerous. Unfortunately we're put stroads in what should be pedestrian priority areas and it is basically impossible to control them this way while still maintaining their stroadness.
posted by Mitheral at 5:11 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I dunno, Mitheral, that sounds like some ridiculously advanced materials science to obtain those road surfaces. But it's also besides the point: people are terrible at judging risk
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 5:45 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 5:45 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think that Mitheral’s vision is basically sound, except that I would have said “driving environments” instead of “driving surfaces.” There are a lot of environmental features that can be added to a road to signal the safe and appropriate speed. Indeed, I feel like Simon’s best argument would be that he was functionally invited to speed by the design of the road he was on.
posted by gauche at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by gauche at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ya surface the wrong word when I should have used driving area? At any rate it works pretty well mostly by accident. A tree lined winding single lane is going to have speeds much lower than a freeway. Things like road width, unobstructed vision distance, level of improvement (dirt/gravel/cobblestones/smooth asphalt), buildings in the area, degree of straightness, travel distances capable without stopping, width of right of way, among other factors all "signal" to drivers what a safe speed is. The problem is we put well paved, unobstructed and straight roads in pedestrian areas. As gauche said this basically invites travel at more than legal or prudent city speed.
posted by Mitheral at 6:11 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 6:11 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Getting people to slow down where there are other road users (which is basically everywhere) is important, as is eventually piercing the sense of entitlement drivers have to massive amounts of public spending and effort.
However, any enforcement scheme has to both appear and feel fair to be successful. School zone speed cameras operating well outside school hours is not that. Neither are shitty red light camera programs that issue more tickets for technical but ultimately meaningless violations than the kind that actually matter.
At I've said before, enforcement is necessary, but should not be the primary means of adjusting driver behavior because it simply does not work. To get people to drive a particular speed, you must design the road such that drivers want to drive at whatever speed is deemed appropriate. Build a race track and people will use it as such. Build something that makes people feel like they should drive slowly and they will.
posted by wierdo at 7:40 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
However, any enforcement scheme has to both appear and feel fair to be successful. School zone speed cameras operating well outside school hours is not that. Neither are shitty red light camera programs that issue more tickets for technical but ultimately meaningless violations than the kind that actually matter.
At I've said before, enforcement is necessary, but should not be the primary means of adjusting driver behavior because it simply does not work. To get people to drive a particular speed, you must design the road such that drivers want to drive at whatever speed is deemed appropriate. Build a race track and people will use it as such. Build something that makes people feel like they should drive slowly and they will.
posted by wierdo at 7:40 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
School zone speed cameras operating well outside school hours is not that.
This was a regular speed camera enforcing the regular citywide speed limit (25 mph). The only thing "school zone" about it is where it was installed.
The fair thing to do is enforce the regular speed limit all the time, not have a speed limit system that effectively only targets parents of school-aged kids.
This is like complaining that you got a "baseball parking ticket when there wasn't a baseball game going" because the meter enforcement officer assigned to the stadium area issued the ticket, even though you absolutely did park illegally per the 24/7 normal rules. It's a false attribution of cause.
posted by 0xFCAF at 7:50 PM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
This was a regular speed camera enforcing the regular citywide speed limit (25 mph). The only thing "school zone" about it is where it was installed.
The fair thing to do is enforce the regular speed limit all the time, not have a speed limit system that effectively only targets parents of school-aged kids.
This is like complaining that you got a "baseball parking ticket when there wasn't a baseball game going" because the meter enforcement officer assigned to the stadium area issued the ticket, even though you absolutely did park illegally per the 24/7 normal rules. It's a false attribution of cause.
posted by 0xFCAF at 7:50 PM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
Is this "regular citywide speed limit" actually posted so that people would be on notice of it?
posted by Not A Thing at 7:56 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Not A Thing at 7:56 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is this "regular citywide speed limit" actually posted so that people would be on notice of it?
CITY SPEED LIMIT: 25
PHOTO ENFORCED
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:10 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
CITY SPEED LIMIT: 25
PHOTO ENFORCED
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:10 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Is this "regular citywide speed limit" actually posted so that people would be on notice of it?
All jurisdictions have a 'regular limit' that applies when there's no posted limit. It's usually posted at the city limits. It's incumbent on motorists to know it.
posted by sid at 8:12 PM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
All jurisdictions have a 'regular limit' that applies when there's no posted limit. It's usually posted at the city limits. It's incumbent on motorists to know it.
posted by sid at 8:12 PM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Touche, 0xFXAF, but what if you can't see?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 8:13 PM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 8:13 PM on August 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm having way too much fun clicking around New York City in Street View; it's a lovely place and I should go back.
I must apologize to Simon because it seems I posted a sign near a different speed camera than the one he was probably ticketed at. The sign he blatantly ignored was more likely this one. Or maybe it was this one that he was going too fast to see, or maybe this one. Nonetheless, coming off the Williamsburg bridge, he certainly missed this one, and then maybe later missed this one. It's like a scavenger hunt!
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:31 PM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
I must apologize to Simon because it seems I posted a sign near a different speed camera than the one he was probably ticketed at. The sign he blatantly ignored was more likely this one. Or maybe it was this one that he was going too fast to see, or maybe this one. Nonetheless, coming off the Williamsburg bridge, he certainly missed this one, and then maybe later missed this one. It's like a scavenger hunt!
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:31 PM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Tangential to TFA, but germane to the larger discussion about speed - in addition to road design, vehicle design is a big part of the problem. Modern cars are so refined and isolated from the road in terms of NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) that the sensation of speed is greatly reduced. I doubt there’s any stuffing that genie back in the bottle at this point, as consumer expectations for not being able to hear/feel the engine, road and wind noise are such that people will complain if a car doesn’t meet modern standards in that regard.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 8:33 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 8:33 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
In Mr. Simon’s defense, writers are very busy people, and driving 25 instead of 36 through a 1/4 mile school zone would have cost him (does some 9th grade math on the back of an envelope) an extra 11 seconds, time he might never get back.
posted by baseballpajamas at 8:43 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by baseballpajamas at 8:43 PM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't know if you were trying to be facetious but this is how speed limits would ideally work. Driving surfaces should be designed to naturally make drivers feel that a safe speed is a comfortable speed.
It should be both. You can't road design your way around dickheads who feel like they're much more competent and safe drivers than they actually are. You can't have vibes based speed limits, but you can try and make the road vibes match the posted speed limit. You still need the posted speed limit, and you still need to enforce that.
However, any enforcement scheme has to both appear and feel fair to be successful.
As a pedestrian, any enforcement scheme that lets drivers get away with speeding (or other infractions, like turning without indicating) even sometimes does not feel fair at all, nor successful. It feels dangerous, and like drivers' convenience and feelings are being prioritised over pedestrians' lives.
posted by Dysk at 11:24 PM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
It should be both. You can't road design your way around dickheads who feel like they're much more competent and safe drivers than they actually are. You can't have vibes based speed limits, but you can try and make the road vibes match the posted speed limit. You still need the posted speed limit, and you still need to enforce that.
However, any enforcement scheme has to both appear and feel fair to be successful.
As a pedestrian, any enforcement scheme that lets drivers get away with speeding (or other infractions, like turning without indicating) even sometimes does not feel fair at all, nor successful. It feels dangerous, and like drivers' convenience and feelings are being prioritised over pedestrians' lives.
posted by Dysk at 11:24 PM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yeah I really don't understand people supporting the idea that we should cater to people who want to drive at a speed that "feels" right to them. There are some risk taking individuals who genuinely feel like blazing down a narrow residential speed is perfectly fine, and there is nothing you can do to change that.
Ultimately speed enforcement is the only way if you want to ensure 100% compliance.
Personally I'd start with laws mandating hardware limits in vehicles that prevent them going faster than the top allowable speed in the country - say 75pm/120kmph. As in, some hardware that physically prevents the car from accelerating beyond this point. This would also make vehicles cheaper to manufacture since they don't have to be validated at such a high speeds. It brings to mind certain countries where customers absolutely want to validate their vehicle at 125mph/200kmph and significant engineering resources goes into ensuring the vehicle is comfortable to drive at those speeds in terms of stability and vibration, which increases costs for everyone even if you don't intend to drive at that speed.
I've driven for over 10 years through 6 speed cameras on my commute to and from work and have never gotten a violation, I think this should be the norm everywhere.
posted by xdvesper at 12:02 AM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ultimately speed enforcement is the only way if you want to ensure 100% compliance.
Personally I'd start with laws mandating hardware limits in vehicles that prevent them going faster than the top allowable speed in the country - say 75pm/120kmph. As in, some hardware that physically prevents the car from accelerating beyond this point. This would also make vehicles cheaper to manufacture since they don't have to be validated at such a high speeds. It brings to mind certain countries where customers absolutely want to validate their vehicle at 125mph/200kmph and significant engineering resources goes into ensuring the vehicle is comfortable to drive at those speeds in terms of stability and vibration, which increases costs for everyone even if you don't intend to drive at that speed.
I've driven for over 10 years through 6 speed cameras on my commute to and from work and have never gotten a violation, I think this should be the norm everywhere.
posted by xdvesper at 12:02 AM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
And that [crusade] would be a bad thing because?
The goal of reducing car deaths & injuries is an excellent one. The crusade to make driving so difficult that people are forced out of their cars is a way of sidestepping the fact that in an honest discussion, advocates of a no-car policy would never convince the public to give up their cars. “We know we can’t convince you, so we’ll make things so awkward that your driving becomes untenable.” In service of that, weaponizing children is a particularly notable tactic. Just like every other time they’re used, the morality is impossible to argue with (“You’d don’t want children to get hurt”). The argument has to be visible at all times or people start to question the limitation (thus “school zone” signs prominently displayed). But the problem is that the limitation is more stressing if it’s always there while school is often *out* of session. Keeping the crusade going means ticketing people for school zone violations at completely silly times, like early morning in July, and lays bare the true goal.
The comparable case is the localities (not NYC, particularly) that use traffic enforcement for revenue enhancement — they know they can’t win the discussion in their area about raising taxes, so they decide to find other revenues sources and claim “safety!” as a justification. Both are subverting public preference in interest of a goal you find superior.
posted by Galvanic at 12:59 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
The goal of reducing car deaths & injuries is an excellent one. The crusade to make driving so difficult that people are forced out of their cars is a way of sidestepping the fact that in an honest discussion, advocates of a no-car policy would never convince the public to give up their cars. “We know we can’t convince you, so we’ll make things so awkward that your driving becomes untenable.” In service of that, weaponizing children is a particularly notable tactic. Just like every other time they’re used, the morality is impossible to argue with (“You’d don’t want children to get hurt”). The argument has to be visible at all times or people start to question the limitation (thus “school zone” signs prominently displayed). But the problem is that the limitation is more stressing if it’s always there while school is often *out* of session. Keeping the crusade going means ticketing people for school zone violations at completely silly times, like early morning in July, and lays bare the true goal.
The comparable case is the localities (not NYC, particularly) that use traffic enforcement for revenue enhancement — they know they can’t win the discussion in their area about raising taxes, so they decide to find other revenues sources and claim “safety!” as a justification. Both are subverting public preference in interest of a goal you find superior.
posted by Galvanic at 12:59 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Consistently enforcing the speed limit makes driving so difficult as to be functionally impossible for you? Yes, I do want to force you out of your car in that case.
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:27 AM on August 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:27 AM on August 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
“We know we can’t convince you, so we’ll make things so awkward that your driving becomes untenable.”
This is how we collectively so things altogether, though? We know we can't convince everyone to not just do murders, so we ban it by force of law. Like speeding.
posted by Dysk at 1:41 AM on August 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is how we collectively so things altogether, though? We know we can't convince everyone to not just do murders, so we ban it by force of law. Like speeding.
posted by Dysk at 1:41 AM on August 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Or maybe other bad habits are a better analogy:
We know we can't convince everyone to stop smoking, so we'll ban it from more and more places (with specific reference to health is children), put more and more restrictions on tobacco sales, and ever increasing punitive taxation, all in the hopes that it will at some point no longer be tenable or worthwhile for people to keep smoking.
I am completely on board with doing exactly the same for driving.
posted by Dysk at 2:04 AM on August 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
We know we can't convince everyone to stop smoking, so we'll ban it from more and more places (with specific reference to health is children), put more and more restrictions on tobacco sales, and ever increasing punitive taxation, all in the hopes that it will at some point no longer be tenable or worthwhile for people to keep smoking.
I am completely on board with doing exactly the same for driving.
posted by Dysk at 2:04 AM on August 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Mod note: [btw, TheKaijuCommuter's comment and this post have been added to the sidebar]
posted by taz (staff) at 2:09 AM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 2:09 AM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Interviewer: We overheard you before talking about... you went to court today for a speeding ticket?
David Bailey Simon III: That's accurate.
Interviewer: Right. Do you wanna tell us that story?
David Bailey Simon III: Yes, absolutely, I wouldn't mind telling you the story. Erm... I went to court today for a speeding ticket, and I told the judge, erm... "Let me tell you something, and you listen and you listen good, I'm only gonna say this one time and one time only, I don't repeat myself for nobody," I said. I says... "I'm here to pay a speeding ticket, not to listen to your lectures and hear you run your mouth for an hour." I says "I'm here to pay off my speeding ticket... and I'm here to... to get my fines out of the way and get the fuck back on twitter." The judge says "You can't talk like that in my courtroom, you're in contempt of court." Then I said... I told the judge, "If that's the best you can do, I feel sorry for you." I said "Why don't you just shut your fucking mouth for once and listen." I said "I'm not gonna take your shit." I said "I'm gonna pay my speeding ticket like I said." I walked up to the god damn judge and I hand him my 50 dollars and I says "Here's my money, now I am leaving!" And I left it at that.
Then, before I left, I turned around and told the judge "I'm here to state who I am and be honest with you." I said "If they thought I was speeding in a school zone like you're trying to accuse me of, wouldn't they have let me go because no-one else is out at dawn in July? Yes they would." And the judge says "Yeah, you'd have a point if the speed limit wasn't 25 city-wide," He goes "You don't need to get loud," I said "Don't get loud?" I says "I've got every right to get loud." I says "You can't do a god damn thing about it, because I'm expressing myself in your court, and there is nothing you can do about it! You think you're god because you have a robe and you can put people up the goddamn river for 20 years? Well you're not!" And I left it at that.
Then, before I got in my car, I turned around and walked back into the court and told the judge "Two-word clue: Yankees Suck!!!" And I left it at that.
Interviewer: Would you mind reciting your screenplay for us?
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 2:21 AM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
David Bailey Simon III: That's accurate.
Interviewer: Right. Do you wanna tell us that story?
David Bailey Simon III: Yes, absolutely, I wouldn't mind telling you the story. Erm... I went to court today for a speeding ticket, and I told the judge, erm... "Let me tell you something, and you listen and you listen good, I'm only gonna say this one time and one time only, I don't repeat myself for nobody," I said. I says... "I'm here to pay a speeding ticket, not to listen to your lectures and hear you run your mouth for an hour." I says "I'm here to pay off my speeding ticket... and I'm here to... to get my fines out of the way and get the fuck back on twitter." The judge says "You can't talk like that in my courtroom, you're in contempt of court." Then I said... I told the judge, "If that's the best you can do, I feel sorry for you." I said "Why don't you just shut your fucking mouth for once and listen." I said "I'm not gonna take your shit." I said "I'm gonna pay my speeding ticket like I said." I walked up to the god damn judge and I hand him my 50 dollars and I says "Here's my money, now I am leaving!" And I left it at that.
Then, before I left, I turned around and told the judge "I'm here to state who I am and be honest with you." I said "If they thought I was speeding in a school zone like you're trying to accuse me of, wouldn't they have let me go because no-one else is out at dawn in July? Yes they would." And the judge says "Yeah, you'd have a point if the speed limit wasn't 25 city-wide," He goes "You don't need to get loud," I said "Don't get loud?" I says "I've got every right to get loud." I says "You can't do a god damn thing about it, because I'm expressing myself in your court, and there is nothing you can do about it! You think you're god because you have a robe and you can put people up the goddamn river for 20 years? Well you're not!" And I left it at that.
Then, before I got in my car, I turned around and walked back into the court and told the judge "Two-word clue: Yankees Suck!!!" And I left it at that.
Interviewer: Would you mind reciting your screenplay for us?
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 2:21 AM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I feel like not enough has been said about threementholsandafuneral's link above about just how many summertime school zone speeding tickets Simon has gotten in Baltimore, too:
His 2015 Lexus SUV picked up a whopping eight school zone speeding tickets in Charm City during a three-month period in 2021 — part of a reign of terror that has included 16 speed-camera violations, plus one highway speeding ticket, six tickets for ignoring stop signs and three tickets for "Impeding Movement of Pedestrian."
Ten of his camera-issued school-zone speeding tickets in his beloved hometown were indeed issued during summer, making a mockery of Simon's criticism of New York's program...
And
Simon’s plate also picked up speed camera tickets on July 12 and July 15 of 2021, as well as several parking tickets in Manhattan in 2020, bringing his total record of high crimes and misdemeanors (summonses, actually) to more than 96 tickets, with 81 coming in Baltimore.
And a final lol:
Streetsblog reached out to Simon via Twitter, but the writer then blocked us from seeing his tweets. He did not respond.
posted by mediareport at 2:54 AM on August 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
His 2015 Lexus SUV picked up a whopping eight school zone speeding tickets in Charm City during a three-month period in 2021 — part of a reign of terror that has included 16 speed-camera violations, plus one highway speeding ticket, six tickets for ignoring stop signs and three tickets for "Impeding Movement of Pedestrian."
Ten of his camera-issued school-zone speeding tickets in his beloved hometown were indeed issued during summer, making a mockery of Simon's criticism of New York's program...
And
Simon’s plate also picked up speed camera tickets on July 12 and July 15 of 2021, as well as several parking tickets in Manhattan in 2020, bringing his total record of high crimes and misdemeanors (summonses, actually) to more than 96 tickets, with 81 coming in Baltimore.
And a final lol:
Streetsblog reached out to Simon via Twitter, but the writer then blocked us from seeing his tweets. He did not respond.
posted by mediareport at 2:54 AM on August 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm not saying we should YOLO traffic speed limits. But the design of roads should indicate what sort of speed is expected on that stretch of road. Which is something we fail at miserably but that should be the goal - low levels of enforcement required simply because the road doesn't invite higher than wanted design speed.
A couple simple examples are speed bumps/bumps and roundabouts. A speed hump clearly signals that speeds should be lower than a road would otherwise seem to support. Roundabouts or traffic circles can do the same. That doesn't mean sociopaths won't speed. It just means your average driver will just naturally come to a resonable travel speed if implemented right. And these things are tunable. You can adjust how fast a traffic circle is navigated within limits by the diameter and lane width. Or how fast people pass over speed bumps with table length and height. Heck a speed hump can even allow different classes of vehicle based on track or wheelbase to navigate at different speeds.
This sort of unspoken design language has an effect on even self identified traffic scofflaws like David Simon. Given his wealth and history and pulpit he obviously doesn't care at all about the posted speed on any given stretch of road. But even he was "only" doing 40+% over the posted limit instead of 50 or 60 mph. He obviously isn't impacted in any meaningful way by the posted limit enforcement but something made him feel comfortable travelling at his clocked speed and not faster. I'm guessing the road has some traffic lights or cross streets that discourage freeway speeds even though it is relatively straight and wide.
posted by Mitheral at 5:46 AM on August 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
A couple simple examples are speed bumps/bumps and roundabouts. A speed hump clearly signals that speeds should be lower than a road would otherwise seem to support. Roundabouts or traffic circles can do the same. That doesn't mean sociopaths won't speed. It just means your average driver will just naturally come to a resonable travel speed if implemented right. And these things are tunable. You can adjust how fast a traffic circle is navigated within limits by the diameter and lane width. Or how fast people pass over speed bumps with table length and height. Heck a speed hump can even allow different classes of vehicle based on track or wheelbase to navigate at different speeds.
This sort of unspoken design language has an effect on even self identified traffic scofflaws like David Simon. Given his wealth and history and pulpit he obviously doesn't care at all about the posted speed on any given stretch of road. But even he was "only" doing 40+% over the posted limit instead of 50 or 60 mph. He obviously isn't impacted in any meaningful way by the posted limit enforcement but something made him feel comfortable travelling at his clocked speed and not faster. I'm guessing the road has some traffic lights or cross streets that discourage freeway speeds even though it is relatively straight and wide.
posted by Mitheral at 5:46 AM on August 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've watched the first couple of episodes of the wire a few times, because people keep insisting it's the best show ever, etc. Then forget to keep watching.
posted by signal at 6:03 AM on August 12, 2023
posted by signal at 6:03 AM on August 12, 2023
David Simon has always been a jerk. The Wire is the great show that it is because, on some level, it is kinda jerky. And a lot of its profound and far-reaching empathy for all the Baltimore residents that it encompasses feels like it comes from a guy who, rather than loftily and abstractly considering Cities and Humanity, is exactly the kind of person who would rant about getting a speeding ticket that he deserved to get.
idk, I feel like "being upset about speeding tickets" is one of those great unifiers for a lot of people. I have gotten a couple of speeding tickets, also deserved. I was mad about all of them. My friends get mad at theirs. Random people on line at random places rant about their recent speeding tickets, and my heart goes out to all of them. Getting a speeding ticket is a uniformly unpleasant experience, which is pretty much by design.
I found the comments from misskaz and TheKaijuCommenter extremely interesting, and generally feel like cars are a menace. But I'm also gonna judge artists by the art they make, and David Simon doesn't make a habit of violently assaulting people—he's just a jerk on Twitter, always has been, always will be. This is only "news" because New Yorkers control print media, and New Yorkers are also thin-skinned babies that hate when people trash-talk their overpriced baseball team.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:20 AM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
idk, I feel like "being upset about speeding tickets" is one of those great unifiers for a lot of people. I have gotten a couple of speeding tickets, also deserved. I was mad about all of them. My friends get mad at theirs. Random people on line at random places rant about their recent speeding tickets, and my heart goes out to all of them. Getting a speeding ticket is a uniformly unpleasant experience, which is pretty much by design.
I found the comments from misskaz and TheKaijuCommenter extremely interesting, and generally feel like cars are a menace. But I'm also gonna judge artists by the art they make, and David Simon doesn't make a habit of violently assaulting people—he's just a jerk on Twitter, always has been, always will be. This is only "news" because New Yorkers control print media, and New Yorkers are also thin-skinned babies that hate when people trash-talk their overpriced baseball team.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:20 AM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is only "news" because New Yorkers control print media, and New Yorkers are also thin-skinned babies that hate when people trash-talk their overpriced baseball team.
Or maybe it's "news" because David Simon is being a jerk about something that's actually serious and is too much of a thin-skinned baby himself to admit it.
Way to paint a whole group of people with the same broad brush, dude.
Signed,
A New Yorker who's a New England transplant and roots for the Boston Red Sox because of genetics
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:24 AM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Or maybe it's "news" because David Simon is being a jerk about something that's actually serious and is too much of a thin-skinned baby himself to admit it.
Way to paint a whole group of people with the same broad brush, dude.
Signed,
A New Yorker who's a New England transplant and roots for the Boston Red Sox because of genetics
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:24 AM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, nah. David Simon has tweeted like a dipshit since basically the creation of Twitter. "David Simon Acts Like Dipshit On Twitter" is the literal opposite of news. "David Simon Has Reasonable Conversation On Twitter, Admits To Light Introspection" would be worth a column, maybe.
Similarly, "New Yorker Offended At Suggestion That New Yorkers Offended" has never made it into any newspaper ever. 😉
Speeding is dumb, David Simon is dumb, getting offended at speeding tickets is normal, people getting outraged at outrage online is basically what online is. This is a silly thread—as AlSweigart predicted early on—and affectionate potshots at New Yorkers is always called for, imo.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:36 AM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Similarly, "New Yorker Offended At Suggestion That New Yorkers Offended" has never made it into any newspaper ever. 😉
Speeding is dumb, David Simon is dumb, getting offended at speeding tickets is normal, people getting outraged at outrage online is basically what online is. This is a silly thread—as AlSweigart predicted early on—and affectionate potshots at New Yorkers is always called for, imo.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:36 AM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I agree that it's normal to gripe about speeding tickets, no biggie. But I don't agree that David Simon doesn't make a habit of violently assaulting people. Cars are a leading cause of death in the US and every increased MPH, especially over 25 MPH, increases likelihood of death in a collision.
While it's totally normal and human to falsely believe that our personal driving habits are fine just because we haven't hit someone yet (to say nothing of climate impact) , we as a society have to stop thinking that way.
The solution is to rebuild our cities for walking and transit, but to get there, people will have to learn why that's important.
posted by latkes at 6:39 AM on August 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
While it's totally normal and human to falsely believe that our personal driving habits are fine just because we haven't hit someone yet (to say nothing of climate impact) , we as a society have to stop thinking that way.
The solution is to rebuild our cities for walking and transit, but to get there, people will have to learn why that's important.
posted by latkes at 6:39 AM on August 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Personally I'd start with laws mandating hardware limits in vehicles that prevent them going faster than the top allowable speed in the country - say 75pm/120kmph. As in, some hardware that physically prevents the car from accelerating beyond this point. This would also make vehicles cheaper to manufacture since they don't have to be validated at such a high speedsIf a $400 rental scooter can have GPS-boxed speed limits, manufacturers of vehicles averaging $50k can add that as well. In dense cities you could pick a value like 25mph as the max in the core and never need to worry about precision. It’d reduce congestion and cost - both for the reason you mentioned and also that everyone buying insurance is paying premiums for collisions which are caused by speeding. Driving like Simon is way more likely to result in injuries which require extensive medical care and have significant quality of life impacts.
The other reason to start requiring that technology is that we should use limiters for common traffic offenses. A common argument for not taking drivers’ licenses away is that people have jobs or housing situations which are untenable without a car, and in the United States at least that’s often not a classist lie, but all of that works fine with a low max speed. If the penalty for repeated speeding or not following signals was that you lost the ability to go “vroom vroom” drivers would be far more likely to take them seriously.
posted by adamsc at 6:48 AM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is a silly thread—as AlSweigart predicted early on—and affectionate potshots at New Yorkers is always called for, imo.
You don't mention where YOU'RE from. Are you afraid of people taking "affectionate potshots" at the place yourself?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:54 AM on August 12, 2023
You don't mention where YOU'RE from. Are you afraid of people taking "affectionate potshots" at the place yourself?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:54 AM on August 12, 2023
As far as driving "only five over" so that drivers of vehicles behind you don't throw temper tantrums: this suggests that the norm in the US is to consider a posted speed as a target, rather than a maximum.
A few years ago, I started using cruise control to break my habit of exceeding the maximum legal speed. On roads with stoplights, I tend to travel at the same average speed as drivers who do a lot of stomp-stomp to gun it out of an intersection only to brake at the next one.
If I'm driving in a safe and legal way, the emotional regulation of the driver behind me is their problem, not mine.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:24 AM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
A few years ago, I started using cruise control to break my habit of exceeding the maximum legal speed. On roads with stoplights, I tend to travel at the same average speed as drivers who do a lot of stomp-stomp to gun it out of an intersection only to brake at the next one.
If I'm driving in a safe and legal way, the emotional regulation of the driver behind me is their problem, not mine.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:24 AM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's rare but there are times when going faster than the speed limit is the safer thing to do, mainly in short bursts to avoid a collision. There are many things I would rather see done first instead.
Design roads to slow vehicles down.
Build more densely.
Provide public transit that actually meets people's needs instead of just being a commuter service.
Put legal and hardware limits on vehicle size and configuration (large vehicles also have higher death rates because they hit people in the torso and head instead of the legs).
Basically the opposite of everything we've done in the US for the last 80 years.
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 7:29 AM on August 12, 2023
Design roads to slow vehicles down.
Build more densely.
Provide public transit that actually meets people's needs instead of just being a commuter service.
Put legal and hardware limits on vehicle size and configuration (large vehicles also have higher death rates because they hit people in the torso and head instead of the legs).
Basically the opposite of everything we've done in the US for the last 80 years.
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 7:29 AM on August 12, 2023
As far as driving "only five over" so that drivers of vehicles behind you don't throw temper tantrums: this suggests that the norm in the US is to consider a posted speed as a target, rather than a maximum.
Posted speed limits are basically targets, generally written to the speed that the 85th percentile drives at (if they are not completely arbitrary). So that basically means that 15% of people exceed the max posted speed limit regularly. Which gets back to design standards Mithereal talks about.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:44 AM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Posted speed limits are basically targets, generally written to the speed that the 85th percentile drives at (if they are not completely arbitrary). So that basically means that 15% of people exceed the max posted speed limit regularly. Which gets back to design standards Mithereal talks about.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:44 AM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
It was much earlier in the thread but: Speeding cars kill more people than guns
I don't think that's true. It's hard to easily get mortality data for speeding in particular (vs all vehicular) and pedestrian (which I assume is salient in this discussion) vs occupant, but a quick google seems to show that, in general, gun deaths now exceed vehicular accidents:
I don't think that's true. It's hard to easily get mortality data for speeding in particular (vs all vehicular) and pedestrian (which I assume is salient in this discussion) vs occupant, but a quick google seems to show that, in general, gun deaths now exceed vehicular accidents:
Guns Now Kill More Children and Young Adults Than Car Crashes (May 2022)posted by achrise at 8:49 AM on August 12, 2023
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm
Motor vehicle traffic deaths- Number of deaths: 45,404
All firearm deaths - Number of deaths: 48,830
Gun deaths outpaced motor vehicle deaths in 34 states and the District of Columbia in 2020, the most recent year for which data is available.
Firearms are now the leading cause of YPLL in trauma. Firearm deaths have overtaken MVC as the mechanism for the main cause of potential years of life lost since 2017. Suicide in white males accounts for more YPLL than homicides. Deaths related to firearms are potentially preventable causes of death and prevention efforts should be redirected. YPPL = "years of potential life lost"
I've been living in NYC for nearly two decades and cannot seem to stay away; potshot away. The Yankees do suck.
advocates of a no-car policy would never convince the public to give up their cars. “We know we can’t convince you, so we’ll make things so awkward that your driving becomes untenable.”
"We are going to make you internalize more of the costs you are currently imposing on everyone else" is more like it. If people had to pay for what it actually costs everyone on the planet for their driving, you'd sure see an end to that "quick trip in the car." Now, in many places, the infrastructure is unfortunately such that even able-bodied people have no good alternative to using their cars a lot. This is not the case in NYC, so we are an excellent location to start pushing back on what casual car usage is costing all of us.
posted by praemunire at 10:03 AM on August 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
advocates of a no-car policy would never convince the public to give up their cars. “We know we can’t convince you, so we’ll make things so awkward that your driving becomes untenable.”
"We are going to make you internalize more of the costs you are currently imposing on everyone else" is more like it. If people had to pay for what it actually costs everyone on the planet for their driving, you'd sure see an end to that "quick trip in the car." Now, in many places, the infrastructure is unfortunately such that even able-bodied people have no good alternative to using their cars a lot. This is not the case in NYC, so we are an excellent location to start pushing back on what casual car usage is costing all of us.
posted by praemunire at 10:03 AM on August 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
achrise: "It was much earlier in the thread but: Speeding cars kill more people than guns
I don't think that's true."
Aproximately 250,000 people die each year from guns. Over 1.3 million people die from traffic accidents (couldn't find data on speeding)
posted by signal at 10:08 AM on August 12, 2023
I don't think that's true."
Aproximately 250,000 people die each year from guns. Over 1.3 million people die from traffic accidents (couldn't find data on speeding)
posted by signal at 10:08 AM on August 12, 2023
Well it seems the United States is an outlier in the worldwide data when it comes to the ratio of vehicular vs. firearm deaths. Quelle surprise.
posted by achrise at 10:19 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by achrise at 10:19 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
It should not be surprising that discussion about cars in the United States is starting to sound more and more like how firearm rights were discussed.
"They're going to ban 100-round assault rifle drum magazines, this is a step towards banning all guns entirely, we have to fight this, the government overreach has to stop"
"They're going to replace some street parking with a protected bike lane, I might have to park and walk one extra block, this is a step towards banning all cars from the insane bike lobby, we have to fight this, the government overreach has to stop"
Drivers feel entitled to vandalize and destroy safety infrastructure that doesn't allow them to do whatever they want. Instead of installing car-wrecking bollards, the response is akin to saying "boys will be boys" and letting them get away with it.
posted by meowzilla at 1:55 PM on August 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
"They're going to ban 100-round assault rifle drum magazines, this is a step towards banning all guns entirely, we have to fight this, the government overreach has to stop"
"They're going to replace some street parking with a protected bike lane, I might have to park and walk one extra block, this is a step towards banning all cars from the insane bike lobby, we have to fight this, the government overreach has to stop"
Drivers feel entitled to vandalize and destroy safety infrastructure that doesn't allow them to do whatever they want. Instead of installing car-wrecking bollards, the response is akin to saying "boys will be boys" and letting them get away with it.
posted by meowzilla at 1:55 PM on August 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
If I'm driving in a safe and legal way, the emotional regulation of the driver behind me is their problem, not mine.
until they make it yours.
Former cab driver here, veteran of many, many, miles of city driving. One thing you figure out pretty quick in that line of work is that driving, traffic, humans-using-roads-to-get-around is the definition of complex. Which is why I find a lot of this thread frustrating. Lots of good arguments, all manner of angles and points of view ... but for me, it all just adds up to "nobody really knows" -- certainly not in the sense that there's any simple solution to the problems related to the culture of the internal combustion engine. There's not even a complicated solution because the problem is complex which means, pretty much by definition, nobody can even fully define it, let alone resolve it.
Yes, make it harder for cars to get around. But what about people with mobility issues for whom cars rate very high in terms of giving them at least some autonomy?
Get genuinely serious about enforcing speed limits. Okay. So I guess that means we do want more policing in our lives.
And so on.
As with so much of our world these days, it feels like when it comes to the automobile, we're in the metaphorical situation of trying to turn a very large ship around in a very narrow channel ... with the added complication that the ship is loaded with unstable explosives. Not that it can't be done. It just won't be remotely simple ...
It's the kind of thing you wish the guy who made The Wire would make a TV show about
posted by philip-random at 2:58 PM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
until they make it yours.
Former cab driver here, veteran of many, many, miles of city driving. One thing you figure out pretty quick in that line of work is that driving, traffic, humans-using-roads-to-get-around is the definition of complex. Which is why I find a lot of this thread frustrating. Lots of good arguments, all manner of angles and points of view ... but for me, it all just adds up to "nobody really knows" -- certainly not in the sense that there's any simple solution to the problems related to the culture of the internal combustion engine. There's not even a complicated solution because the problem is complex which means, pretty much by definition, nobody can even fully define it, let alone resolve it.
Yes, make it harder for cars to get around. But what about people with mobility issues for whom cars rate very high in terms of giving them at least some autonomy?
Get genuinely serious about enforcing speed limits. Okay. So I guess that means we do want more policing in our lives.
And so on.
As with so much of our world these days, it feels like when it comes to the automobile, we're in the metaphorical situation of trying to turn a very large ship around in a very narrow channel ... with the added complication that the ship is loaded with unstable explosives. Not that it can't be done. It just won't be remotely simple ...
It's the kind of thing you wish the guy who made The Wire would make a TV show about
posted by philip-random at 2:58 PM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
t what about people with mobility issues for whom cars rate very high in terms of giving them at least some autonomy?
Whatabouts!
However, the Netherlands answer seems to be a type of tiny car allowed on bike routes, light and narrow enough that it fits in well.
posted by clew at 4:01 PM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Whatabouts!
However, the Netherlands answer seems to be a type of tiny car allowed on bike routes, light and narrow enough that it fits in well.
posted by clew at 4:01 PM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Get genuinely serious about enforcing speed limits. So I guess that means we do want more policing in our lives.
Just to be clear: no. Enforcing speed limits should be the function of a boring unmilitarized bureaucracy like OSHA, FDA, DOT, DMV, USDA, FAA, or any of the other hundreds of acronymed agencies which exist to serve public safety through rulemaking and civil penalties.
posted by 0xFCAF at 5:39 PM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Just to be clear: no. Enforcing speed limits should be the function of a boring unmilitarized bureaucracy like OSHA, FDA, DOT, DMV, USDA, FAA, or any of the other hundreds of acronymed agencies which exist to serve public safety through rulemaking and civil penalties.
posted by 0xFCAF at 5:39 PM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't know about the others, but the FDA at least has hundreds of armed agents.
posted by tavella at 5:52 PM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 5:52 PM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sure, but there's a big difference between "armed" and "militarized". I think the militarization of police forces is among the worst developments in US history; it's a cancer.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:21 PM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:21 PM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hang on a second - can someone tell me how we ended up talking about which government agency should enforce speed limits, when the issue that ACTUALLY started this conversation is the fact that David Simon doesn't think speed limits even APPLY to him?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:27 PM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:27 PM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Another vote for having a city-wide lower speed limits and not school or park zones. Chicago’s is 30 and because it is so high we are consistently ranked worse for bikers than very bike unfriendly places. Sounds like NYC has got a better situation and complaining about this ticket is ridiculous.
I am a little testy about school zones, the only place I ever got a ticket where it said "20 MPH on School Days when Children are Present.” I pointed out to the police officer waiting in the speed trap that it was hours before school starts and he replied “you don’t know, kids could be inside, you never know” (there were no cars in the suburban parking lot). Just make the sign 20 always! But they won’t because most drivers will go crazy over it.
Anyway, l don’t drive right now and just yesterday I almost was hit while riding my bike in a marked bike lane. A SUV turning out of a giant big box parking lot did not stop or even slow down at the stop sign and drove right into me. I swerved into the traffic and oncoming lane to not get hit and luckily there was a slight break in traffic. It really pissed me off but my heart rate calmed down pretty quickly. Like srboisvert something like this (but usually not quite so dramatic or high speed) happens to me almost every day. SoberHighland I suspect that the narrower streets on the East side lend to potentially less high speed craziness than some of the highways like Elston in Logan Square. Since the pandemic cars literally don’t stop at stop signs. Almost none. Add to that an uptick in front tinted windows I don’t know if drivers see me or not. It’s scary out there! Lower the speed limit and enforce it already!
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:48 PM on August 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am a little testy about school zones, the only place I ever got a ticket where it said "20 MPH on School Days when Children are Present.” I pointed out to the police officer waiting in the speed trap that it was hours before school starts and he replied “you don’t know, kids could be inside, you never know” (there were no cars in the suburban parking lot). Just make the sign 20 always! But they won’t because most drivers will go crazy over it.
Anyway, l don’t drive right now and just yesterday I almost was hit while riding my bike in a marked bike lane. A SUV turning out of a giant big box parking lot did not stop or even slow down at the stop sign and drove right into me. I swerved into the traffic and oncoming lane to not get hit and luckily there was a slight break in traffic. It really pissed me off but my heart rate calmed down pretty quickly. Like srboisvert something like this (but usually not quite so dramatic or high speed) happens to me almost every day. SoberHighland I suspect that the narrower streets on the East side lend to potentially less high speed craziness than some of the highways like Elston in Logan Square. Since the pandemic cars literally don’t stop at stop signs. Almost none. Add to that an uptick in front tinted windows I don’t know if drivers see me or not. It’s scary out there! Lower the speed limit and enforce it already!
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:48 PM on August 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Apparently David Simon loves getting caught speeding so much he's done it 16 times in Baltimore.The fact that this piece of shit has gotten more than a dozen speeding tickets and more than 90 parking tickets and still has a drivers license shows the system badly needs reform.
There was always an ugly pro-cop taint to The Wire, so the way Simon still considers himself above the law is kind of surprising in a morbid way.
posted by zymil at 8:09 PM on August 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
a dipshit maybe. But a piece of shit. That feels grimly reductive. I mean, he did manage to get us the 4th greatest TV-show ever.
posted by philip-random at 9:23 PM on August 12, 2023
posted by philip-random at 9:23 PM on August 12, 2023
Speed limits don't need to be enforced but a person with a gun. They don't even really need to be enforced by a person. Average speed cameras everywhere.
posted by Dysk at 10:56 PM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 10:56 PM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Seems to me he's looking at it from the wrong perspective. The fifty bucks is the price you pay for the privilege of coloring outside the lines. You're buying a bit of privilege, same as upping an airline ticket for extra leg-room, and the money goes to the city which could use the money.
Granted, the privilege you're paying for is raising the risk level for fellow citizens, but, you know, the city's made that calculation and it's going for a few dollars rather than prison time. Life's full of little trade-offs, and cities like New York need the money. To fund stuff.
And if anyone knows about cities that could use more money - to fund stuff - it's got to be the guy who wrote the Wire.
(Haven't read all the comment's so apologies if someone has already suggested this.)
posted by BWA at 7:00 AM on August 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Granted, the privilege you're paying for is raising the risk level for fellow citizens, but, you know, the city's made that calculation and it's going for a few dollars rather than prison time. Life's full of little trade-offs, and cities like New York need the money. To fund stuff.
And if anyone knows about cities that could use more money - to fund stuff - it's got to be the guy who wrote the Wire.
(Haven't read all the comment's so apologies if someone has already suggested this.)
posted by BWA at 7:00 AM on August 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a pedestrian, any enforcement scheme that lets drivers get away with speeding (or other infractions, like turning without indicating) even sometimes does not feel fair at all, nor successful. It feels dangerous, and like drivers' convenience and feelings are being prioritised over pedestrians' lives.
Also as a pedestrian (who hasn't owned a car in over a decade and hasn't driven one in more than 5 years) and a quasi-leftist, I give less than zero credence to any strategy that relies on enforcement given that it has been proven time and again going back literally longer than my four plus decades on this Earth that it simply doesn't work.
Average speed increased drastically during the early days of COVID not because of some lack of enforcement but because we made a stupid as fuck decision to make every road look like a speedway and the only thing keeping people from driving at the speed the road communicates was other cars getting in the way.
Most people don't drive using their rational brain. The monkey brain is trained to do the job and it handles most of the work for you. However, it requires external cues to regulate speed, among other things. When your conscious brain forces your eyes off the road to look at the speedometer, that's time that your monkey brain isn't able to scan the road ahead for things like pedestrians. The last thing I want, as a pedestrian, is people spending less time looking at the road (and environs) ahead.
We keep going down this metaphorical road, though, because redesigning our roads to better train our money brains is expensive and redesigning our cities so that we can stop including a drivers license in every box of Cracker Jacks without making mobility essentially impossible for those who don't have the time, money, or ability to deal with a more reasonably stringent licensing regime is even more so.
The point being that I want to do things that actually work, not take out my annoyance and anger on people who are, in the vast majority of cases, just trying to get by in a shitty system they had no hand in making by punishing them for violations that don't have a direct impact on safety. Drunk driving, tired driving, running red lights, drastically exceeding the speed limit when vulnerable road users are present or likely to be present, failing to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, sure. All these things make roads measurably less safe, and not in the conditional way that relatively minor speed violations do, and also, just as importantly (if not more so) discourage people from considering alternative modes of transportation.
That last bit is important because having a large number of people riding bikes and walking is second only to the design of the road itself to getting everyone's monkey brain to realize it needs to slow the fuck down. It has to be immediate, not "oh, you might get a ticket in the mail next Tuesday" for it to do significant good at getting people to do what we both want.
posted by wierdo at 12:06 PM on August 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also as a pedestrian (who hasn't owned a car in over a decade and hasn't driven one in more than 5 years) and a quasi-leftist, I give less than zero credence to any strategy that relies on enforcement given that it has been proven time and again going back literally longer than my four plus decades on this Earth that it simply doesn't work.
Average speed increased drastically during the early days of COVID not because of some lack of enforcement but because we made a stupid as fuck decision to make every road look like a speedway and the only thing keeping people from driving at the speed the road communicates was other cars getting in the way.
Most people don't drive using their rational brain. The monkey brain is trained to do the job and it handles most of the work for you. However, it requires external cues to regulate speed, among other things. When your conscious brain forces your eyes off the road to look at the speedometer, that's time that your monkey brain isn't able to scan the road ahead for things like pedestrians. The last thing I want, as a pedestrian, is people spending less time looking at the road (and environs) ahead.
We keep going down this metaphorical road, though, because redesigning our roads to better train our money brains is expensive and redesigning our cities so that we can stop including a drivers license in every box of Cracker Jacks without making mobility essentially impossible for those who don't have the time, money, or ability to deal with a more reasonably stringent licensing regime is even more so.
The point being that I want to do things that actually work, not take out my annoyance and anger on people who are, in the vast majority of cases, just trying to get by in a shitty system they had no hand in making by punishing them for violations that don't have a direct impact on safety. Drunk driving, tired driving, running red lights, drastically exceeding the speed limit when vulnerable road users are present or likely to be present, failing to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, sure. All these things make roads measurably less safe, and not in the conditional way that relatively minor speed violations do, and also, just as importantly (if not more so) discourage people from considering alternative modes of transportation.
That last bit is important because having a large number of people riding bikes and walking is second only to the design of the road itself to getting everyone's monkey brain to realize it needs to slow the fuck down. It has to be immediate, not "oh, you might get a ticket in the mail next Tuesday" for it to do significant good at getting people to do what we both want.
posted by wierdo at 12:06 PM on August 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I guess what it really boils down to is that except in some particularly egregious cases, individual drivers shouldn't be the focus of our ire, though they are usually the most convenient target. The responsible parties are the ones who created the system that has fucked us all. Problem is that they're pretty much all dead at this point, so there's nobody left to hold accountable.
Even where these shitty patterns of development are being perpetuated in new development, it's almost always a reaction to being held hostage by choices made in the past that will literally bankrupt our cities if they stop playing the same game before we come up with some alternative that allows them to shoulder the massive cost of maintaining the idiotic infrastructure while it is being replaced with something more sustainable.
posted by wierdo at 12:19 PM on August 13, 2023
Even where these shitty patterns of development are being perpetuated in new development, it's almost always a reaction to being held hostage by choices made in the past that will literally bankrupt our cities if they stop playing the same game before we come up with some alternative that allows them to shoulder the massive cost of maintaining the idiotic infrastructure while it is being replaced with something more sustainable.
posted by wierdo at 12:19 PM on August 13, 2023
Another vote for having a city-wide lower speed limits and not school or park zones
The speed limit of 25 is city wide, the school zone just legislatively enables alternative enforcement. This isn't a "no kids are out at 5am so the limit shouldn't apply" situation. He would have been speeding practically anywhere in NYC.
posted by Mitheral at 1:21 PM on August 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
The speed limit of 25 is city wide, the school zone just legislatively enables alternative enforcement. This isn't a "no kids are out at 5am so the limit shouldn't apply" situation. He would have been speeding practically anywhere in NYC.
posted by Mitheral at 1:21 PM on August 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
It has to be immediate, not "oh, you might get a ticket in the mail next Tuesday" for it to do significant good at getting people to do what we both want.
Get rid of the "might" and it could work. Speed cameras have to be clearly marked in the UK, and you can be damn sure most everyone slows for them. It doesn't work because the enforcement is spotty - you might get a ticket, but you probably won't, the bad thing will never happen to me, after all, only other people. We have the technology to make it consistent. Drivers slow for speed cameras. So let's have them everywhere.
As a pedestrian, I also only see the dangerous driving when I, a vulnerable road user, am using the road. Not indicating is a fucking hazard for pedestrians, for example, indicating is not an optional courtesy you might do if there are other cars about, like everyone seems to treat it. Including the fucking police.
Driving is a privilege, not a right. Start treating it that way, especially in places that are set up for people to not need a car, like NYC and most (by population) of the UK.
posted by Dysk at 2:27 PM on August 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Get rid of the "might" and it could work. Speed cameras have to be clearly marked in the UK, and you can be damn sure most everyone slows for them. It doesn't work because the enforcement is spotty - you might get a ticket, but you probably won't, the bad thing will never happen to me, after all, only other people. We have the technology to make it consistent. Drivers slow for speed cameras. So let's have them everywhere.
As a pedestrian, I also only see the dangerous driving when I, a vulnerable road user, am using the road. Not indicating is a fucking hazard for pedestrians, for example, indicating is not an optional courtesy you might do if there are other cars about, like everyone seems to treat it. Including the fucking police.
Driving is a privilege, not a right. Start treating it that way, especially in places that are set up for people to not need a car, like NYC and most (by population) of the UK.
posted by Dysk at 2:27 PM on August 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wierdo, you may not be surprised to learn that although USDOT has formally adopted the Safe System Approach, the pernicious focus on individualism runs so deep that people in power still interpret "shared responsibility" as "pedestrians and drivers are equally responsible" and not "the system is largely responsible, so the owners and operators must be responsible, and when collisions occur, there is an imbalance in safe facilities and kinetic energy, so responsibility is not shared." Some of us in the research world are pushing back on this, but the status quo is powerful in the US.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 3:49 PM on August 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 3:49 PM on August 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Posted speed limits are basically targets, generally written to the speed that the 85th percentile drives at (if they are not completely arbitrary).It’s worse than arbitrary because it allows the worst drivers to set the limit by bullying other drivers who are trying to be safe and scaring away the pedestrians and cyclists who would be cueing the less aggressive drivers to slow down. Over time that culture becomes self-reinforcing because people tend to act like their peers, especially when it looks like breaking the rules is benefiting the other drivers with no consequences.
That’s why I have to disagree a bit with wierdo: I agree that better designs are important but enforcement is 100% necessary. It’s really tempting to avoid tackling the problems with American policing but the answer has to be finding an enforcement mechanism which doesn’t have so many downsides because anything short of banning cars will otherwise be abused. Narrowing roads, reducing sight lines, etc. help a little but the most dangerous drivers are also the ones most likely to ignore those cues.
I was terribly unsurprised to see a rich guy from Baltimore taking this position because Maryland has the worst driving culture I’ve ever seen (driving in Boston, south Florida, LA, etc. is relaxing in comparison, and the only times in my adult life that I’ve been threatened with physical violence were by affluent middle-aged white guys from Maryland suburbs who went apoplectic after being expected to follow pedestrian safety laws) and most of that comes back to having zero consequences for any sort of bad behavior before you kill someone. When you have thousands of people who treat signals and signs like they’re decorative clutter and react to things like narrowing by driving faster, you aren’t going to fix it short of taking their cars away. There’s been road work here (power line undergrounding) and that’s produced basically what all of the design fixes call for: narrow one lane in each direction, curvy routes, bumpy surfaces, even humans with flags – and absolutely none of that matters to the median SUV driver who’s not about to slow down to the speed limit just to save someone stranger’s life. I even watched some of them playing chicken using the oncoming traffic lane to pass people who were driving correctly, secure in the knowledge that there’d be no consequences for threatening other people with deadly force.
posted by adamsc at 5:50 PM on August 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
It has to be immediate
Where I live, you instantly lose your license (3 month suspension) for exceeding the speed limit by 25kmph/15mph, and as I mentioned, I drive through 6 speed cameras on the way to work and have never received a violation.
Blood Alcohol Content limit is 0.05% (I believe in the US the federal limit is 0.08%). Exceed the 0.05% level and your license is immediately cancelled, you're disqualified from driving for 6 months, and you are slapped with a 3 year Zero BAC condition, meaning you must blow 0.00% if you get breath tested in the future. You also have to install an Alcohol Interlock on any car you drive for a period of time - you must blow a 0.00% BAC to even start the car.
Those consequences are as "immediate" as they come.
Just eyeballing some quick statistics we have 1/4 of the road fatality rate of the US.
posted by xdvesper at 5:51 PM on August 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Where I live, you instantly lose your license (3 month suspension) for exceeding the speed limit by 25kmph/15mph, and as I mentioned, I drive through 6 speed cameras on the way to work and have never received a violation.
Blood Alcohol Content limit is 0.05% (I believe in the US the federal limit is 0.08%). Exceed the 0.05% level and your license is immediately cancelled, you're disqualified from driving for 6 months, and you are slapped with a 3 year Zero BAC condition, meaning you must blow 0.00% if you get breath tested in the future. You also have to install an Alcohol Interlock on any car you drive for a period of time - you must blow a 0.00% BAC to even start the car.
Those consequences are as "immediate" as they come.
Just eyeballing some quick statistics we have 1/4 of the road fatality rate of the US.
posted by xdvesper at 5:51 PM on August 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
indicating is not an optional courtesy you might do if there are other cars about, like everyone seems to treat it. Including the fucking police.
I can't speak to your particular state, but in many the requirement to use turn signals is contingent on the presence of other vehicles, not other road users. Might want to work on getting the law changed if you want it to be different.
That said, my time in Miami finished off any conviction I had as to the usefulness of drivers using turn signals. When I'm close enough to a car to be affected by it, I find myself much better off watching the driver if I want to know if they are preparing for a turn. Part of that is indeed due to poor driving habits on the part of drivers, but partly it is just a more direct observation of intent than the blinkenlights.
The other, far more annoying, aspect is that policing sucks ass to the point that cops will use attentiveness to the road rules as an excuse to stop people and harass them. "Oh, you're driving carefully/under the speed limit/whatever? You must be drunk/a criminal/worried about attention from the police. That's suspicious!" If it weren't for the insanity that is policing these days, I'd be much less sympathetic to people employing whatever strategies they feel necessary to avoid interactions with the armed gang of literal highway robbers.
But yes, I do agree that enforcement is a necessary component of traffic safety (there will always be people who are actively breaking the law, which is not the group primarily impacted at present) I just don't think it should be the primary method, which is pretty much the only thing it can be in the current system with the current roads we have today that work to trick driver's brains.
posted by wierdo at 1:31 AM on August 14, 2023
I can't speak to your particular state, but in many the requirement to use turn signals is contingent on the presence of other vehicles, not other road users. Might want to work on getting the law changed if you want it to be different.
That said, my time in Miami finished off any conviction I had as to the usefulness of drivers using turn signals. When I'm close enough to a car to be affected by it, I find myself much better off watching the driver if I want to know if they are preparing for a turn. Part of that is indeed due to poor driving habits on the part of drivers, but partly it is just a more direct observation of intent than the blinkenlights.
The other, far more annoying, aspect is that policing sucks ass to the point that cops will use attentiveness to the road rules as an excuse to stop people and harass them. "Oh, you're driving carefully/under the speed limit/whatever? You must be drunk/a criminal/worried about attention from the police. That's suspicious!" If it weren't for the insanity that is policing these days, I'd be much less sympathetic to people employing whatever strategies they feel necessary to avoid interactions with the armed gang of literal highway robbers.
But yes, I do agree that enforcement is a necessary component of traffic safety (there will always be people who are actively breaking the law, which is not the group primarily impacted at present) I just don't think it should be the primary method, which is pretty much the only thing it can be in the current system with the current roads we have today that work to trick driver's brains.
posted by wierdo at 1:31 AM on August 14, 2023
In case it's not clear, I really hate the system as it exists now. What I'm disagreeing with about the enforcement approach is the strategy that we should employ to get to the end state that all of us here would like: An increase in safety for all road users, but especially people walking or cycling and other vulnerable road users and the reduction in car dependency. I want drivers to be our allies in this project, and I Believe they can be. The situation is fucking them, too.
posted by wierdo at 1:40 AM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by wierdo at 1:40 AM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can't speak to your particular state
I'm in the UK, as I stated twice in this thread. Signalling a turn is not optional. "Mirror, signal, maneuver" is what everyone taking their license is taught. Failing to signal is a very common reason to fail a driving test.
Might want to work on getting the law changed if you want it to be different.
Might want to work on your assumptions if you want to play gotcha.
That said, my time in Miami finished off any conviction I had as to the usefulness of drivers using turn signals. When I'm close enough to a car to be affected by it, I find myself much better off watching the driver if I want to know if they are preparing for a turn.
If it takes an average pedestrian five seconds to cross a road, drivers need to signal five seconds before they would turn into that road. If a car is close enough that you can see the driver or watch the 'body language' of the car, it's already too late - I could be halfway across already, right in the path of the turn. If turn signals are useless, it's because they're coming too late.
posted by Dysk at 6:02 AM on August 14, 2023
I'm in the UK, as I stated twice in this thread. Signalling a turn is not optional. "Mirror, signal, maneuver" is what everyone taking their license is taught. Failing to signal is a very common reason to fail a driving test.
Might want to work on getting the law changed if you want it to be different.
Might want to work on your assumptions if you want to play gotcha.
That said, my time in Miami finished off any conviction I had as to the usefulness of drivers using turn signals. When I'm close enough to a car to be affected by it, I find myself much better off watching the driver if I want to know if they are preparing for a turn.
If it takes an average pedestrian five seconds to cross a road, drivers need to signal five seconds before they would turn into that road. If a car is close enough that you can see the driver or watch the 'body language' of the car, it's already too late - I could be halfway across already, right in the path of the turn. If turn signals are useless, it's because they're coming too late.
posted by Dysk at 6:02 AM on August 14, 2023
(The UK highway code is also in many ways an ill defined joke, but failing to signal will fall under "careless or inconsiderate driving" which is an offense)
posted by Dysk at 6:11 AM on August 14, 2023
posted by Dysk at 6:11 AM on August 14, 2023
The other, far more annoying, aspect is that policing sucks ass to the point that cops will use attentiveness to the road rules as an excuse to stop people and harass them.
In my example above - with automatic penalties for speeding and drink driving - this issue pretty much doesn't exist. It's all automated cameras which take photos and use radar readings for evidence.
Drink driving enforcement isn't random, police just set up roadblocks and just breath test everyone coming through. Though I suspect, it's either totally random locations and times because there have been some truly bizarre places and times that I've seen these happen, or it's actually cover them looking for a fugitive or suspect and doing it in a non-suspicious way by throwing down a drink / drug testing roadblock, and just visually scanning every driver that comes through.
posted by xdvesper at 5:00 PM on August 14, 2023
In my example above - with automatic penalties for speeding and drink driving - this issue pretty much doesn't exist. It's all automated cameras which take photos and use radar readings for evidence.
Drink driving enforcement isn't random, police just set up roadblocks and just breath test everyone coming through. Though I suspect, it's either totally random locations and times because there have been some truly bizarre places and times that I've seen these happen, or it's actually cover them looking for a fugitive or suspect and doing it in a non-suspicious way by throwing down a drink / drug testing roadblock, and just visually scanning every driver that comes through.
posted by xdvesper at 5:00 PM on August 14, 2023
Yes, make it harder for cars to get around. But what about people with mobility issues for whom cars rate very high in terms of giving them at least some autonomy?
Getting people from taking automobile trips they don’t need to take (the majority of car trips in cities) would make driving easier and more pleasurable for people who truly do need to drive.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:12 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Getting people from taking automobile trips they don’t need to take (the majority of car trips in cities) would make driving easier and more pleasurable for people who truly do need to drive.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:12 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
But what about people with mobility issues for whom cars rate very high in terms of giving them at least some autonomy?
It depends - are these people with mobility issues obeying the speed limits?
If so, then there's no problem.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
It depends - are these people with mobility issues obeying the speed limits?
If so, then there's no problem.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Consistently enforcing the speed limit makes driving so difficult as to be functionally impossible for you? Yes, I do want to force you out of your car in that case.
So one of the interesting things that I come to, as someone who switched politics later in life, is an understanding of economic impacts, without the limiting focus of an aesthetic of someone who has had those politics all my life.
First and foremost, I'd like to say that I acknowledge that speed of cars is a problem for safety. But, the solutions being proposed are not solutions that would actually affect the speed of cars - instead, they are solutions that would penalize the poor and marginalized the most, while not actually changing the dynamics that cause such accidents.
Why do people drive fast? Yes, of course there's some isolated speed devils. But for the most part, people drive fast because of two reasons: (1) they are increasingly pressed for time and (2) they are increasingly penalized for being late.
If you have a society that lets people fire employees for being late for work, while letting employers fail to pay employees enough money to let them afford to live close to work, you are going to have speeding.
If you have a society that lets employers fail to pay employees enough money to live close to work, making them have three hour commutes each day, so that they have very little time to make it to appointments or daily errands, you're going to have speeding.
Lowering the speed of roads doesn't give people more time or make their neighborhoods or lives more livable.
If you want less people in cars, the correct answer is not to make driving in cars more miserable, it's to make public transportation significantly better, cleaner, more convenient, faster, and running at more hours. If you want less people driving fast in cars, then you need to remove the pressures on their lives that make them drive fast. Otherwise you're just punishing them for making choices that seem reasonable to them given the circumstances they live under. It is less likely that they will hit someone than that they will be fired if they're late, for example. So create protections.
posted by corb at 2:43 AM on August 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
So one of the interesting things that I come to, as someone who switched politics later in life, is an understanding of economic impacts, without the limiting focus of an aesthetic of someone who has had those politics all my life.
First and foremost, I'd like to say that I acknowledge that speed of cars is a problem for safety. But, the solutions being proposed are not solutions that would actually affect the speed of cars - instead, they are solutions that would penalize the poor and marginalized the most, while not actually changing the dynamics that cause such accidents.
Why do people drive fast? Yes, of course there's some isolated speed devils. But for the most part, people drive fast because of two reasons: (1) they are increasingly pressed for time and (2) they are increasingly penalized for being late.
If you have a society that lets people fire employees for being late for work, while letting employers fail to pay employees enough money to let them afford to live close to work, you are going to have speeding.
If you have a society that lets employers fail to pay employees enough money to live close to work, making them have three hour commutes each day, so that they have very little time to make it to appointments or daily errands, you're going to have speeding.
Lowering the speed of roads doesn't give people more time or make their neighborhoods or lives more livable.
If you want less people in cars, the correct answer is not to make driving in cars more miserable, it's to make public transportation significantly better, cleaner, more convenient, faster, and running at more hours. If you want less people driving fast in cars, then you need to remove the pressures on their lives that make them drive fast. Otherwise you're just punishing them for making choices that seem reasonable to them given the circumstances they live under. It is less likely that they will hit someone than that they will be fired if they're late, for example. So create protections.
posted by corb at 2:43 AM on August 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m going to cut through the deep and textured analyses here to say don’t use children as an excuse in early morning July because then you weaken that motive when it really counts.
posted by Galvanic at 3:30 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Galvanic at 3:30 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you want less people driving fast in cars, then you need to remove the pressures on their lives that make them drive fast.
You can do both. We absolutely need to work on systemic issues that contribute to the problem, but much as we might need to work on systemic issues with inequality and poverty that push people to e.g. commit theft or murder, we can work on those systemic issues while holding people to account for the actions they choose to take. The systemic issue does not absolve personal responsibility for one's choices. It's both.
posted by Dysk at 11:10 PM on August 16, 2023
You can do both. We absolutely need to work on systemic issues that contribute to the problem, but much as we might need to work on systemic issues with inequality and poverty that push people to e.g. commit theft or murder, we can work on those systemic issues while holding people to account for the actions they choose to take. The systemic issue does not absolve personal responsibility for one's choices. It's both.
posted by Dysk at 11:10 PM on August 16, 2023
(And, we don't strictly need to make public transport better in an absolute sense - it needs to be better relative to driving. That can be achieved in part through improving public transport, but also in part through making driving worse.)
posted by Dysk at 11:11 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:11 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
But, the solutions being proposed are not solutions that would actually affect the speed of cars
Actually, how can you say that with a straight face? (referring to my comment). Honestly asking here. You're welcome to come by Melbourne and see how few people speed compared to the US (I was shocked at how lawless things were when I drove through parts of the US - Washington State, Wyoming, Arizona). When you're driving through a literal gauntlet of speed cameras to get anywhere, people have no choice but to obey the limits.
I've known 3-4 people here get their license suspended for speeding, they never did it again, so I guess it must have worked.
posted by xdvesper at 12:01 AM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Actually, how can you say that with a straight face? (referring to my comment). Honestly asking here. You're welcome to come by Melbourne and see how few people speed compared to the US (I was shocked at how lawless things were when I drove through parts of the US - Washington State, Wyoming, Arizona). When you're driving through a literal gauntlet of speed cameras to get anywhere, people have no choice but to obey the limits.
I've known 3-4 people here get their license suspended for speeding, they never did it again, so I guess it must have worked.
posted by xdvesper at 12:01 AM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
When you're driving through a literal gauntlet of speed cameras to get anywhere, people have no choice but to obey the limits.
I'm going to take this question seriously and explain, but no, people always have a variety of choices, depending on their economic situations and consequences. Some of this may be due to differences in legal landscapes, but I think that this probably applies even in other cirumstances.
First, I don't know the numbers, but many of the jurisdictions that allow for speed-camera speeding tickets (correctly, in my view) do not allow for them to count as 'points' that impact people's licenses, because you can't tell who is driving. You can issue the ticket to the people the car is registered to, but there's no law against loaning your car to other people, and often a car is used by multiple people in a household.
In addition, I know this surprises a lot of people, especially people that either follow rules better or are in better economic circumstances, but I know many people that simply ignore their speeding tickets. These aren't bad people, they just simply can't afford to pay them. It doesn't matter how many they receive. All that additional speeding tickets will mean is that they eventually will not be able to re-register their cars. Many of them already can't afford to re-register their cars anyway and so often don't. This doesn't stop them from driving their cars. Yes, eventually they may get pulled over by a human cop and then their vehicle might get impounded. That's a maybe circumstance, and the only certain outcome of that is...that they would then have to take substandard public transportation. Just like they would have to take if they weren't driving right now. They might have a low level criminal violation, but even that is uncertain, and it doesn't compare to the very real possibility of getting fired today, now, if they don't get to work. Similarly, even if the tickets did suspend their license, people might well continue driving on a suspended license, because they don't feel they have better options.
we don't strictly need to make public transport better in an absolute sense - it needs to be better relative to driving. That can be achieved in part through improving public transport, but also in part through making driving worse
The reason I strongly, strongly disagree with you here, is that people can tell when they're being fucked with, and then you're going to have generations of spite drivers who will continue driving long past when it is reasonable to do so, because fuck you, that's why. It also decreases the social fabric and makes everything else worse in a number of other areas. I don't see a reason to do that when we could be working on cleaner, faster, safer, more pleasant public transportation instead.
posted by corb at 9:50 AM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm going to take this question seriously and explain, but no, people always have a variety of choices, depending on their economic situations and consequences. Some of this may be due to differences in legal landscapes, but I think that this probably applies even in other cirumstances.
First, I don't know the numbers, but many of the jurisdictions that allow for speed-camera speeding tickets (correctly, in my view) do not allow for them to count as 'points' that impact people's licenses, because you can't tell who is driving. You can issue the ticket to the people the car is registered to, but there's no law against loaning your car to other people, and often a car is used by multiple people in a household.
In addition, I know this surprises a lot of people, especially people that either follow rules better or are in better economic circumstances, but I know many people that simply ignore their speeding tickets. These aren't bad people, they just simply can't afford to pay them. It doesn't matter how many they receive. All that additional speeding tickets will mean is that they eventually will not be able to re-register their cars. Many of them already can't afford to re-register their cars anyway and so often don't. This doesn't stop them from driving their cars. Yes, eventually they may get pulled over by a human cop and then their vehicle might get impounded. That's a maybe circumstance, and the only certain outcome of that is...that they would then have to take substandard public transportation. Just like they would have to take if they weren't driving right now. They might have a low level criminal violation, but even that is uncertain, and it doesn't compare to the very real possibility of getting fired today, now, if they don't get to work. Similarly, even if the tickets did suspend their license, people might well continue driving on a suspended license, because they don't feel they have better options.
we don't strictly need to make public transport better in an absolute sense - it needs to be better relative to driving. That can be achieved in part through improving public transport, but also in part through making driving worse
The reason I strongly, strongly disagree with you here, is that people can tell when they're being fucked with, and then you're going to have generations of spite drivers who will continue driving long past when it is reasonable to do so, because fuck you, that's why. It also decreases the social fabric and makes everything else worse in a number of other areas. I don't see a reason to do that when we could be working on cleaner, faster, safer, more pleasant public transportation instead.
posted by corb at 9:50 AM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't see a reason to do that when we could be working on cleaner, faster, safer, more pleasant public transportation instead.
Then I recommend you watch Not Just Bikes and Strong Towns (whom I linked to earlier in this thread.) Because when people talk about making driving "worse", what they're actually discussing is removing some of the multitude of ways that our society subsidizes driving, in many ways to our detriment.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:08 AM on August 17, 2023
Then I recommend you watch Not Just Bikes and Strong Towns (whom I linked to earlier in this thread.) Because when people talk about making driving "worse", what they're actually discussing is removing some of the multitude of ways that our society subsidizes driving, in many ways to our detriment.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:08 AM on August 17, 2023
The reason I strongly, strongly disagree with you here, is that people can tell when they're being fucked with
This is very true. For instance, I recently had someone tell me that they had a right to risk my life as a pedestrian for no good reason because a poor person might be running late and needs to save 20 seconds.
posted by Superilla at 11:14 AM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is very true. For instance, I recently had someone tell me that they had a right to risk my life as a pedestrian for no good reason because a poor person might be running late and needs to save 20 seconds.
posted by Superilla at 11:14 AM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some of this may be due to differences in legal landscapes,
Yes, that is true, the legal landscape is set by the government, if they are serious about road safety. I'll address the points here - I have some familiarity with the legal side of things.
1. Point penalties accruing to the owner of the vehicle by default - this is in fact desirable. The way it works is that the registered owner gets their license suspended unless they get the actual driver to write a statutory declaration that they were the one driving. Photographic evidence is also taken into account when accepting a stat dec, as cameras are positioned to take a clear photo of the driver. Window tint is of course prohibited. Putting the responsibility on the owner is similar to the concept of say, if you own a gun and fail to secure it properly and your child steals it and shoots someone, you will be criminally liable. If you lend your car to someone, and it enables them to commit a crime, you potentially share in the liability. As for vehicles registered to corporations rather than individuals, the relevant law makes it mandatory for the corporation to keep a logbook of drivers and the time and location of their drives. If no driver takes the points deduction then it results in a massive monetary fine for the company, no different than one for breaking environment or safety laws.
2. This doesn't stop them from driving their cars. Yes, eventually they may get pulled over by a human cop and then their vehicle might get impounded.
We have real time license plate scanners installed on cop cars, basically cops patrol the road and a 360 camera scans all the plates on both sides of the road and it comes up with a realtime database of violations, suspensions, etc - e.g., red Toyota camry ahead has an expired registration, owner on suspended license. This vastly improved traffic enforcement.
As for non-payment of fines the government has the ability to garnish your wages or pull money from bank accounts registered in your name. This is surprisingly easy in Australia because we are a welfare state (nearly 40% of government spending is cash welfare payouts) and people receive those welfare payments and tax refunds directly into their own bank accounts, which made it very easy to provide Covid relief payments for example since nearly everyone is set up in the systems one way or another - you either pay tax or receive welfare. Traffic fine penalties would either be deducted from your wage income, welfare income, or direct from the account itself if it goes unpaid long enough. If you try to go into hiding from a financial point of view then you practically lose access to welfare payments.
posted by xdvesper at 4:11 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, that is true, the legal landscape is set by the government, if they are serious about road safety. I'll address the points here - I have some familiarity with the legal side of things.
1. Point penalties accruing to the owner of the vehicle by default - this is in fact desirable. The way it works is that the registered owner gets their license suspended unless they get the actual driver to write a statutory declaration that they were the one driving. Photographic evidence is also taken into account when accepting a stat dec, as cameras are positioned to take a clear photo of the driver. Window tint is of course prohibited. Putting the responsibility on the owner is similar to the concept of say, if you own a gun and fail to secure it properly and your child steals it and shoots someone, you will be criminally liable. If you lend your car to someone, and it enables them to commit a crime, you potentially share in the liability. As for vehicles registered to corporations rather than individuals, the relevant law makes it mandatory for the corporation to keep a logbook of drivers and the time and location of their drives. If no driver takes the points deduction then it results in a massive monetary fine for the company, no different than one for breaking environment or safety laws.
2. This doesn't stop them from driving their cars. Yes, eventually they may get pulled over by a human cop and then their vehicle might get impounded.
We have real time license plate scanners installed on cop cars, basically cops patrol the road and a 360 camera scans all the plates on both sides of the road and it comes up with a realtime database of violations, suspensions, etc - e.g., red Toyota camry ahead has an expired registration, owner on suspended license. This vastly improved traffic enforcement.
As for non-payment of fines the government has the ability to garnish your wages or pull money from bank accounts registered in your name. This is surprisingly easy in Australia because we are a welfare state (nearly 40% of government spending is cash welfare payouts) and people receive those welfare payments and tax refunds directly into their own bank accounts, which made it very easy to provide Covid relief payments for example since nearly everyone is set up in the systems one way or another - you either pay tax or receive welfare. Traffic fine penalties would either be deducted from your wage income, welfare income, or direct from the account itself if it goes unpaid long enough. If you try to go into hiding from a financial point of view then you practically lose access to welfare payments.
posted by xdvesper at 4:11 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
This actually reinforces the idea that welfare - including corporate welfare - is an extraordinary means of behavior control.
It's similar to the billions in foreign aid we provide. It's not out of the goodness of our hearts, this money buys us control and influence over other nations because we can modify their behavior to some degree or the money stops.
posted by xdvesper at 4:19 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's similar to the billions in foreign aid we provide. It's not out of the goodness of our hearts, this money buys us control and influence over other nations because we can modify their behavior to some degree or the money stops.
posted by xdvesper at 4:19 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you have a society that lets employers fail to pay employees enough money to live close to work, making them have three hour commutes each day, so that they have very little time to make it to appointments or daily errands, you're going to have speeding.
Honestly I can't imagine this situation, at least where I live. Speeding only buys me a few minutes. The biggest factor in my travel time is traffic. Also, I don't know if your contention that the economically less fortunate speed as they're generally crunched for time due to circumstances is borne out by facts. The few data I've seen on speeding seem to indicate that the rich are more likely to speed than poor people.
Lowering the speed of roads doesn't give people more time or make their neighborhoods or lives more livable.
Isn't it going to improve their lives and improve their neighbourhoods by making it much less likely that they will be killed or maimed in a motor vehicle accident?
posted by sid at 9:57 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Honestly I can't imagine this situation, at least where I live. Speeding only buys me a few minutes. The biggest factor in my travel time is traffic. Also, I don't know if your contention that the economically less fortunate speed as they're generally crunched for time due to circumstances is borne out by facts. The few data I've seen on speeding seem to indicate that the rich are more likely to speed than poor people.
Lowering the speed of roads doesn't give people more time or make their neighborhoods or lives more livable.
Isn't it going to improve their lives and improve their neighbourhoods by making it much less likely that they will be killed or maimed in a motor vehicle accident?
posted by sid at 9:57 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
The reason I strongly, strongly disagree with you here, is that people can tell when they're being fucked with,
We can. That's why we want drivers to bear more if the burden they currently outsource onto the rest of us. Don't even get me started on how expensive driving would be if we priced in just the environmental externalities.
You seem very concerned about pandering to drivers, and that same sympathy apparently doesn't apply to those of us who don't drive. You know why I never learned to drive? I'm too poor. But I guess I gotta think of those poor poor drivers in their giant expensive SUVs? Cars are expensive. The bus is cheap. Walking is cheaper still. If this is a class issue, it's not the drivers who should get our sympathy.
posted by Dysk at 10:40 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
We can. That's why we want drivers to bear more if the burden they currently outsource onto the rest of us. Don't even get me started on how expensive driving would be if we priced in just the environmental externalities.
You seem very concerned about pandering to drivers, and that same sympathy apparently doesn't apply to those of us who don't drive. You know why I never learned to drive? I'm too poor. But I guess I gotta think of those poor poor drivers in their giant expensive SUVs? Cars are expensive. The bus is cheap. Walking is cheaper still. If this is a class issue, it's not the drivers who should get our sympathy.
posted by Dysk at 10:40 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
'Wire' writer David Simon's NYC school speed-zone ticket remains unpaid and overdue
posted by 1970s Antihero at 12:33 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 12:33 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wasn't aware that there are US jurisdictions where failure to pay (or contest) moving violations don't result in a bench arrest warrant.
In the mid 80s, I got a speeding ticket in a tiny Texas town (it was a speed-trap kind of thing on a highway, not that I'm making excuses) and it just had a phone number on the ticket to call the court about paying the fine. When I did so, I got a message saying the court was open only a few hours a couple days a week and to call then. Of course I didn't. Months later, in Amarillo, I got pulled over for an expired safety sticker and, to my surprise, was arrested. That was the second and final time in my life I got arrested in relation to a traffic violation. In 2001, I had a romantic partner who was arrested in a similar circumstance in Austin for a failure to appear in Houston for a speeding ticket, and through my efforts barely avoided being transported there and spending the weekend in jail because of reasons.
Aside: That situation was actually part of a more serious incident wherein she'd taken Ambien with a glass of wine and was later found in her overturned vehicle by responders on a highway outside of town — she has no memory of anything about it at all, and it all happened after I'd gone to sleep. She waked me when she called from the police station. When they released her and I picked her up, at that point she didn't even remember the arrest or that she'd called me at all. Only a month later, I experienced myself a similar Ambien blackout (not involving alcohol, only Ambien) during which, I later discovered, I'd spent $9,000 on three car MP3 players — yes, you read that correctly. That was bleeding-edge tech in 2001. I canceled the order for two of them, explaining to the customer service person that I'd "been on drugs when I ordered the extra two" (for my girlfriend and a friend, respectively). I don't understand how that drug has remained on the market. I tend to believe the stories of people, like Tiger Woods, who say they have no memory of what happened after they took it.
Anyway, while I do think failure to pay traffic fines should have serious consequences (like suspension of license), on the whole it'd be better if all this stuff were administrative and didn't involve the police. But that's not going to be change in the US any time soon, short of a complete reform of American policing.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:17 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the mid 80s, I got a speeding ticket in a tiny Texas town (it was a speed-trap kind of thing on a highway, not that I'm making excuses) and it just had a phone number on the ticket to call the court about paying the fine. When I did so, I got a message saying the court was open only a few hours a couple days a week and to call then. Of course I didn't. Months later, in Amarillo, I got pulled over for an expired safety sticker and, to my surprise, was arrested. That was the second and final time in my life I got arrested in relation to a traffic violation. In 2001, I had a romantic partner who was arrested in a similar circumstance in Austin for a failure to appear in Houston for a speeding ticket, and through my efforts barely avoided being transported there and spending the weekend in jail because of reasons.
Aside: That situation was actually part of a more serious incident wherein she'd taken Ambien with a glass of wine and was later found in her overturned vehicle by responders on a highway outside of town — she has no memory of anything about it at all, and it all happened after I'd gone to sleep. She waked me when she called from the police station. When they released her and I picked her up, at that point she didn't even remember the arrest or that she'd called me at all. Only a month later, I experienced myself a similar Ambien blackout (not involving alcohol, only Ambien) during which, I later discovered, I'd spent $9,000 on three car MP3 players — yes, you read that correctly. That was bleeding-edge tech in 2001. I canceled the order for two of them, explaining to the customer service person that I'd "been on drugs when I ordered the extra two" (for my girlfriend and a friend, respectively). I don't understand how that drug has remained on the market. I tend to believe the stories of people, like Tiger Woods, who say they have no memory of what happened after they took it.
Anyway, while I do think failure to pay traffic fines should have serious consequences (like suspension of license), on the whole it'd be better if all this stuff were administrative and didn't involve the police. But that's not going to be change in the US any time soon, short of a complete reform of American policing.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:17 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by pulposus at 8:26 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]