definitely not your fault
August 17, 2023 2:25 PM Subscribe
I'm pretty much convinced that bikes and cars will never be able to safely share the road, and that dedicated, protected (bollards or jersey barriers) bike lanes and bike paths are the only way to really make cycling safe.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [56 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [56 favorites]
The thing with dedicated infrastructure is that it still has to intersect existing infrastructure at regular intervals. And it's the intersections that are interesting....
But, I think we're going to get there, with a mixture of traffic calming and bike infrastructure and just getting more bikes on the road. It's going to take us longer than it should, but we can do it.
posted by bfields at 2:54 PM on August 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
But, I think we're going to get there, with a mixture of traffic calming and bike infrastructure and just getting more bikes on the road. It's going to take us longer than it should, but we can do it.
posted by bfields at 2:54 PM on August 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
It still shock shock SHOCKS me how few reprocussions exist in the U.S. for killing or hurting a pedestrian or cyclist. It's sick.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:54 PM on August 17, 2023 [47 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:54 PM on August 17, 2023 [47 favorites]
After 3 years of bike commuting I'm finally getting serious about getting some cameras for my bike. There's been no specific incident that's spurred this on, just that I've been thinking "I really should get some cameras" for way too long and it's about time I actually acted on it. Hopefully some video evidence would be enough to show the insurance company that it wasn't my fault.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:55 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:55 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I used to love cycling, like, it was central to my life for many years, part of who I was. Then I got hit by a car. Then I got hit by a car again. Then my bike got stolen, but I got another one, and then I got hit by a car on that one. My last bike I somehow managed to give away before anyone could hit me with their car.
I was extraordinarily lucky, more than once, since any single one of those encounters could have killed or maimed me. And in the last twenty years drivers have only gotten worse, more distracted, less considerate, more aggressive, less inclined to see a fragile living person and more inclined to see an irritation when they can be bothered to see you at all. And then somehow (like so many things) it became dramatically worse after the pandemic, so much so that I was afraid for my life just crossing the street on foot let alone riding a bike.
So yeah. This article sums up why I don't cycle any more and why I'll probably never ride a bike on public roads again.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 2:57 PM on August 17, 2023 [23 favorites]
I was extraordinarily lucky, more than once, since any single one of those encounters could have killed or maimed me. And in the last twenty years drivers have only gotten worse, more distracted, less considerate, more aggressive, less inclined to see a fragile living person and more inclined to see an irritation when they can be bothered to see you at all. And then somehow (like so many things) it became dramatically worse after the pandemic, so much so that I was afraid for my life just crossing the street on foot let alone riding a bike.
So yeah. This article sums up why I don't cycle any more and why I'll probably never ride a bike on public roads again.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 2:57 PM on August 17, 2023 [23 favorites]
hmmm I dont know There is enough blame/fault to go around "ahhh Mr bicyclist that was a red light you blew thru" And the number of bike rider that at dusk or even at night DO NOT wear ANY reflective material I yell out my auto window "I CANT SEE YOU" Any number of them look at me as if I interrupted their ride down to the seashore
Having written that I know (duh) that bicycles are fragile And vehicle drivers are racing faster with bigger machines
posted by robbyrobs at 2:59 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Having written that I know (duh) that bicycles are fragile And vehicle drivers are racing faster with bigger machines
posted by robbyrobs at 2:59 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
I live in a European city that is slowly coming around to accepting bicycles as part of the traffic flow (also pedestrians, scooters and whatnot). We have bike lanes and while there is a growing awareness of non-car traffic it is still up to us cyclists to pay attention and not get sideswiped, doored or run over. So we have not yet evolved to any kind of parity and the onus remains on the uncarred to be careful. I don't like this and when I drive I strive to be extra solicitous, but at least on my bike I know my survival is down to me. It's not ideal, but that's the way it is, for now.
posted by chavenet at 3:06 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by chavenet at 3:06 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I realized today that the #1 person I wear a bike helmet to benefit is probably my future widow's future lawyer.
posted by Superilla at 3:10 PM on August 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Superilla at 3:10 PM on August 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
hmmm I dont know There is enough blame/fault to go around "ahhh Mr bicyclist that was a red light you blew thru" And the number of bike rider that at dusk or even at night DO NOT wear ANY reflective material I yell out my auto window "I CANT SEE YOU" Any number of them look at me as if I interrupted their ride down to the seashore
You seem to be completely missing the point.
posted by aniola at 3:12 PM on August 17, 2023 [61 favorites]
You seem to be completely missing the point.
posted by aniola at 3:12 PM on August 17, 2023 [61 favorites]
I biked through big U campus today. Total chaos everywhere, as you may expect. What's wild is how bimodal drivers are.
Some will happily plow into me because I'm obviously invisible as a six foot person riding a giant cargo bike with a big box of groceries in back.
The other end sees me easily, but loses all sense of normal traffic rules and creates unsafe situations by behaving erratically.
If people would manage to just treat me like a slower car that would be so nice.
posted by SaltySalticid at 3:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
Some will happily plow into me because I'm obviously invisible as a six foot person riding a giant cargo bike with a big box of groceries in back.
The other end sees me easily, but loses all sense of normal traffic rules and creates unsafe situations by behaving erratically.
If people would manage to just treat me like a slower car that would be so nice.
posted by SaltySalticid at 3:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
You forgot to go back in time and tell people that subsidizing the oil industry might be a bad idea.
Lol my dad basically accused me of this, which was funny because he s the one that voted for Reagan
posted by eustatic at 3:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Lol my dad basically accused me of this, which was funny because he s the one that voted for Reagan
posted by eustatic at 3:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Bike Paths Are Too Expensive, Says Only Nation Almost Entirely Covered In Asphalt
posted by swift at 3:51 PM on August 17, 2023 [74 favorites]
posted by swift at 3:51 PM on August 17, 2023 [74 favorites]
I live in rural New Zealand and no longer cycle roads - just too hazardous with so.many.trucks, and tbe occasional murderous car driver.
I have cycle toured widely in the US, Europe and NZ, and have had cars switch lanes and drive AT me in Scotland, Alaska and NZ - talk to other cyclists and this is common.
posted by unearthed at 4:00 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have cycle toured widely in the US, Europe and NZ, and have had cars switch lanes and drive AT me in Scotland, Alaska and NZ - talk to other cyclists and this is common.
posted by unearthed at 4:00 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty much convinced that bikes and cars will never be able to safely share the road, and that dedicated, protected (bollards or jersey barriers) bike lanes and bike paths are the only way to really make cycling safe.
Separate infrastructure is the only way to get to the highest possible standard of safety. Meantime, right now we have the infrastructure that we have right now.
We need to enforce rules around the use of that infrastructure that keep everyone as safe as possible, including and especially cyclists and pedestrians.
We're not doing that, to say the least.
posted by gurple at 4:00 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Separate infrastructure is the only way to get to the highest possible standard of safety. Meantime, right now we have the infrastructure that we have right now.
We need to enforce rules around the use of that infrastructure that keep everyone as safe as possible, including and especially cyclists and pedestrians.
We're not doing that, to say the least.
posted by gurple at 4:00 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ban private cars, yes I'm serious, no I am not taking questions or criticism at this time, thanks
posted by Krawczak at 4:09 PM on August 17, 2023 [61 favorites]
posted by Krawczak at 4:09 PM on August 17, 2023 [61 favorites]
I look at those plastic "dividers" that get tossed up to "separate" bike lanes from cars, and see how often they're flattened and mangled because a car ran them over.
I think there should be a law that whenever one of those is replaced, it has to be replaced with a steel rod.
posted by ChrisR at 4:13 PM on August 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
I think there should be a law that whenever one of those is replaced, it has to be replaced with a steel rod.
posted by ChrisR at 4:13 PM on August 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
"And the number of bike rider that at dusk or even at night DO NOT wear ANY reflective material I yell out my auto window 'I CANT SEE YOU'"
Hey @robbyrobs , don't fucking yell at cyclists. You are not helping anyone by yelling something at them that they already know. And also, there is a high chance they can't understand what you're saying. You're just some idiot amongst the hundreds of idiots who yell at a cyclist during their commute every year. Doesn't matter if your intentions are good, YOU ARE NOT HELPING.
posted by backlikeclap at 4:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [40 favorites]
Hey @robbyrobs , don't fucking yell at cyclists. You are not helping anyone by yelling something at them that they already know. And also, there is a high chance they can't understand what you're saying. You're just some idiot amongst the hundreds of idiots who yell at a cyclist during their commute every year. Doesn't matter if your intentions are good, YOU ARE NOT HELPING.
posted by backlikeclap at 4:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [40 favorites]
Doesn't matter if your intentions are good, YOU ARE NOT HELPING.
While I agree with the spirit of your comment, the ableism is also not helping.
posted by aniola at 4:26 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
While I agree with the spirit of your comment, the ableism is also not helping.
posted by aniola at 4:26 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ban private cars, yes I'm serious, no I am not taking questions or criticism at this time, thank
I'd be happy to just ban private car subsidies. No curb cuts. No street parking. No parking permits. No requirements that houses have driveways, or that apartments have parking spots. No government subsidies for car manufacturers. Curb-weight taxes to pay for street repairs, life-of-the-vehicle fuel efficiency taxes to cover the cost of environmental cleanup from the exhaust.
If car owners had to pay what cars actually cost instead of foisting those costs off on society, we'd find out pretty quickly that cars are a ponzi scheme.
posted by mhoye at 4:30 PM on August 17, 2023 [36 favorites]
I'd be happy to just ban private car subsidies. No curb cuts. No street parking. No parking permits. No requirements that houses have driveways, or that apartments have parking spots. No government subsidies for car manufacturers. Curb-weight taxes to pay for street repairs, life-of-the-vehicle fuel efficiency taxes to cover the cost of environmental cleanup from the exhaust.
If car owners had to pay what cars actually cost instead of foisting those costs off on society, we'd find out pretty quickly that cars are a ponzi scheme.
posted by mhoye at 4:30 PM on August 17, 2023 [36 favorites]
don't fucking yell at cyclists ... Doesn't matter if your intentions are good ...
As a cyclist I can say it really doesn't matter either what your intentions are or what you actually are yelling because I can never hear what you're saying, and my only takeaway is "some asshole driver shouted at me. Oh well I guess some people are just mad that cyclists are allowed on the road"
posted by aubilenon at 4:37 PM on August 17, 2023 [29 favorites]
As a cyclist I can say it really doesn't matter either what your intentions are or what you actually are yelling because I can never hear what you're saying, and my only takeaway is "some asshole driver shouted at me. Oh well I guess some people are just mad that cyclists are allowed on the road"
posted by aubilenon at 4:37 PM on August 17, 2023 [29 favorites]
It still shock shock SHOCKS me how few reprocussions exist in the U.S. for killing or hurting a pedestrian or cyclist. It's sick.I will say, it was interesting seeing how educational it’s been for privileged white guys like me. When the current wave of police brutality protests started building, pretty much every cyclist I knew, even the libertarian or Republican ones, was like “oh, yeah, cops totally put lies on official reports”. That doesn’t solve every problem, of course, but the idea that news stories and police reports were unreliable wasn’t even remotely controversial.
posted by adamsc at 4:40 PM on August 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm fairly certain that no one cares about cyclists and pedestrians, including people that have gone to various city planning meetings trying to get bike lanes created.
My city has recently added a bike lane that starts at a highway off ramp, maintains a 12 inch width on the opposite side of the road for about 60 feet until it ends abruptly 40 feet from a Home Depot parking lot. How anyone ever thought that was even a remotely good idea is beyond me. The only thing that comes to mind is someone being ale to cheer about how they got a bike lane created as a part of a checklist.
Even though my state requires bicycles to be treated and act like automobiles (with exceptions) I have been verbally accosted hundreds of times while riding. I've been assaulted twice. Hit by cars while I was stationary 7 times. Broken bones from these accidents and the cops forced me to apologize to the drivers under the threat of arrest. I'll never forget the driver that made an illegal left turn over the curb to go the wrong way through a Taco Bell drive thru that resulted in my broken hand and the totalling of my $1,400 bike where the cop let the driver go and said I should be more careful... while I was standing in a parking space in a Taco Bell parking lot.
I know, this is no longer a productive comment but... I can't take any of this back and forth seriously.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 4:53 PM on August 17, 2023 [33 favorites]
My city has recently added a bike lane that starts at a highway off ramp, maintains a 12 inch width on the opposite side of the road for about 60 feet until it ends abruptly 40 feet from a Home Depot parking lot. How anyone ever thought that was even a remotely good idea is beyond me. The only thing that comes to mind is someone being ale to cheer about how they got a bike lane created as a part of a checklist.
Even though my state requires bicycles to be treated and act like automobiles (with exceptions) I have been verbally accosted hundreds of times while riding. I've been assaulted twice. Hit by cars while I was stationary 7 times. Broken bones from these accidents and the cops forced me to apologize to the drivers under the threat of arrest. I'll never forget the driver that made an illegal left turn over the curb to go the wrong way through a Taco Bell drive thru that resulted in my broken hand and the totalling of my $1,400 bike where the cop let the driver go and said I should be more careful... while I was standing in a parking space in a Taco Bell parking lot.
I know, this is no longer a productive comment but... I can't take any of this back and forth seriously.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 4:53 PM on August 17, 2023 [33 favorites]
“oh, yeah, cops totally put lies on official reports”
Right, from my experience with reporting accidents and bike theft, I can say --
bwahahaha no I can't even, not with a straight face, sorry. The first time my bike got stolen, I waited two hours for police to come so I could get a police report for insurance, no one ever came. The first time I got hit by a car, the driver said they were just going to pull over to wait for the police, and they peeled out, turned at the first corner, and never looked back. Cops didn't show up that time either, not that it would have mattered much at that point. Neither did they express any interest in showing up the next time I got hit. (By then I knew not to wait.)
I imagine if I actually got hit by a car that was a police car, and either I or the bike or both became lodged in their wheel well or undercarriage in such a way that acceleration became difficult, I would probably have a conversation with the police about an accident between a bicycle and a car in which nobody died. I don't see any other way in which that would ever be likely to happen, not in Portland or in Chicago or in any other city in which I've ever lived.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 4:53 PM on August 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
Right, from my experience with reporting accidents and bike theft, I can say --
bwahahaha no I can't even, not with a straight face, sorry. The first time my bike got stolen, I waited two hours for police to come so I could get a police report for insurance, no one ever came. The first time I got hit by a car, the driver said they were just going to pull over to wait for the police, and they peeled out, turned at the first corner, and never looked back. Cops didn't show up that time either, not that it would have mattered much at that point. Neither did they express any interest in showing up the next time I got hit. (By then I knew not to wait.)
I imagine if I actually got hit by a car that was a police car, and either I or the bike or both became lodged in their wheel well or undercarriage in such a way that acceleration became difficult, I would probably have a conversation with the police about an accident between a bicycle and a car in which nobody died. I don't see any other way in which that would ever be likely to happen, not in Portland or in Chicago or in any other city in which I've ever lived.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 4:53 PM on August 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
In the Netherlands, in a car-bike collision, the driver of the car is always presumed at fault. ALWAYS. The cyclist would have to have done something really, really egregious to be found responsible.
Point is: it's not that hard. Change the law. Yes, the Netherlands backs it up with the best cycling infrastructure in the world, but let's start by putting drivers on notice that they are going to be liable.
posted by liam665 at 5:04 PM on August 17, 2023 [36 favorites]
Point is: it's not that hard. Change the law. Yes, the Netherlands backs it up with the best cycling infrastructure in the world, but let's start by putting drivers on notice that they are going to be liable.
posted by liam665 at 5:04 PM on August 17, 2023 [36 favorites]
I had a neat driver interaction in San Francisco, on a very busy road near to Portrero Hill, I'd just arrived and all of a sudden there was this guying waving me down from the sidewalk - he looked fine so I stopped - and he pressed one of those bike helmet rear view mirrors into my hand saying he was really worried for me - told me he'd spotted me and driven ahead to be able to do this.
I used that for a long time. But I had a great time in SF - no anti-pedestrian/cyclist issues at all, SF seemed far more chill than many other US cities. (VERY different to NZ where people routinely drive AT pedestrians - we have a lot of very fragile, white, males),
posted by unearthed at 5:08 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
I used that for a long time. But I had a great time in SF - no anti-pedestrian/cyclist issues at all, SF seemed far more chill than many other US cities. (VERY different to NZ where people routinely drive AT pedestrians - we have a lot of very fragile, white, males),
posted by unearthed at 5:08 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
In the last three years, I have aided 5 cyclists who have been hit or had their bike damaged. I drive a big ass pickup truck. I sometimes feel like the HELP trucks on the highway. I have given these 5 cyclists lifts for them and their damaged bikes either to home, to health care or just a safe place to regroup. I learned a healthy fear of hitting cyclists and motorcycles when I was in driver's ed some 40+ years ago and when I owned an unregistered and unreliable shit ass motorcycle in college. My son rode his bike cross country one summer when he was 16. There is no reason not to pay attention as a driver of a one to two ton vehicle (or some huge truck). So you are delayed 15 seconds waiting for a safe place to pass? I have a cousin who was killed as a pedestrian at the age or 23 by a distracted truck driver. Why we all can't learn to share the roads is beyond me.
One semi-related pet peeve: I am hard of hearing. The electric (mostly Teslas) cars that make little to no sound when approaching say in a parking lot or on a local street is very dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists alike. I think they should have some sort of artificial sound to let you know they are coming. Not quite, "on your left", but maybe a built in speaker playing engine sounds when they are driving below a certain speed. (On highway no need)
posted by JohnnyGunn at 5:18 PM on August 17, 2023 [18 favorites]
One semi-related pet peeve: I am hard of hearing. The electric (mostly Teslas) cars that make little to no sound when approaching say in a parking lot or on a local street is very dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists alike. I think they should have some sort of artificial sound to let you know they are coming. Not quite, "on your left", but maybe a built in speaker playing engine sounds when they are driving below a certain speed. (On highway no need)
posted by JohnnyGunn at 5:18 PM on August 17, 2023 [18 favorites]
Its got to happen like booze.
Over my lifetime I've seen it go from (in places I was) a *lot* of people driving around with at least some level of alcohol (and some lots more), and in a many places it was just given a pass. Until somebody got hurt/killed (and they *mattered*) then there would be efforts. For a while.
Nowadays it's not like that. It's still not good. But so much more than then.
[shrug]
Part of the ongoing Culture wars I suppose. Hope we win.
(and smoking too, now that I think of it)
posted by aleph at 5:26 PM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Over my lifetime I've seen it go from (in places I was) a *lot* of people driving around with at least some level of alcohol (and some lots more), and in a many places it was just given a pass. Until somebody got hurt/killed (and they *mattered*) then there would be efforts. For a while.
Nowadays it's not like that. It's still not good. But so much more than then.
[shrug]
Part of the ongoing Culture wars I suppose. Hope we win.
(and smoking too, now that I think of it)
posted by aleph at 5:26 PM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Point is: it's not that hard. Change the law.
I absolutely agree with the spirit of your comment, and at the same time wish I could convey to you how vanishingly unlikely this would be in most of America. Even in dense lefty enclaves like Portland it's hard to imagine any substantial traction in that direction, and in most of the rest of the country you'd be laughed all the way out of the legislature just for suggesting it.
This is America. We drive cars. Car ownership and all the masturbatory fantasy about freedom and the open road and everything else that goes along with it, that's all deeply woven into the American Dream. The entire country, from the massive decaying infrastructure of national and state highways all the way down to the drive-thru Walgreens next door to the drive-thru McDonalds across the street from the drive-thru Citibank, is built around the assumption that anybody that needs to get anywhere or get anything done has a car. If you don't have a car, outside of the largest cities, people assume that's a problem for you, and outside of the largest cities, it often is.
How do you build any kind of momentum toward justice for injured or killed cyclists, in an environment like this? People in cars are the default. People on bikes are the exception, the other. People ride bikes because something has gone wrong. I've been accused more than once of having had a DUI; people couldn't imagine why else I'd be an adult riding a bike around town. When these attitudes blanket the majority of the country, you don't get bike lanes or bike infrastructure, you don't get genuine consideration of the idea of actually sharing the roads or recognition of the massive disparities in power and fragility between cars and cyclists, and you don't get any kind of real justice for crimes against people on bikes, not even when drivers flat-out murder cyclists out of ignorance or distraction or spite. To change that, you have to change America.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:46 PM on August 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
I absolutely agree with the spirit of your comment, and at the same time wish I could convey to you how vanishingly unlikely this would be in most of America. Even in dense lefty enclaves like Portland it's hard to imagine any substantial traction in that direction, and in most of the rest of the country you'd be laughed all the way out of the legislature just for suggesting it.
This is America. We drive cars. Car ownership and all the masturbatory fantasy about freedom and the open road and everything else that goes along with it, that's all deeply woven into the American Dream. The entire country, from the massive decaying infrastructure of national and state highways all the way down to the drive-thru Walgreens next door to the drive-thru McDonalds across the street from the drive-thru Citibank, is built around the assumption that anybody that needs to get anywhere or get anything done has a car. If you don't have a car, outside of the largest cities, people assume that's a problem for you, and outside of the largest cities, it often is.
How do you build any kind of momentum toward justice for injured or killed cyclists, in an environment like this? People in cars are the default. People on bikes are the exception, the other. People ride bikes because something has gone wrong. I've been accused more than once of having had a DUI; people couldn't imagine why else I'd be an adult riding a bike around town. When these attitudes blanket the majority of the country, you don't get bike lanes or bike infrastructure, you don't get genuine consideration of the idea of actually sharing the roads or recognition of the massive disparities in power and fragility between cars and cyclists, and you don't get any kind of real justice for crimes against people on bikes, not even when drivers flat-out murder cyclists out of ignorance or distraction or spite. To change that, you have to change America.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:46 PM on August 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
One radial head fracture later, I consider myself lucky. Separate trails only from now on. No more sharing a 2-foot shoulder with dualies going 20 mph over the speed limit on roads where I have never seen anyone cited for speeding. Now I just have to worry about drivers rolling through stop signs while Facetiming.
I might disguise my bike to look like a golf cart, drivers seem less angry at those.
posted by credulous at 5:52 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I might disguise my bike to look like a golf cart, drivers seem less angry at those.
posted by credulous at 5:52 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
My city has recently added a bike lane that starts at a highway off ramp, maintains a 12 inch width on the opposite side of the road for about 60 feet until it ends abruptly 40 feet from a Home Depot parking lot. How anyone ever thought that was even a remotely good idea is beyond me. The only thing that comes to mind is someone being ale to cheer about how they got a bike lane created as a part of a checklist.
They don't necessarily apply in this case, but other reasons can include:
- It may be policy to add bike lanes whenever there's other work; resurfacing, replacing a water main, whatever. In the short term, this results in a lot of disconnected lanes, but longer term it results in more miles of bike lane, because reconfiguring a road that you already have to stripe anyway is cheap.
- Even if it's not (yet) much use as a bike lane, it may have a traffic calming effect, if it narrows the road, and therefore may improve safety for drivers and pedestrians.
posted by bfields at 6:27 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
They don't necessarily apply in this case, but other reasons can include:
- It may be policy to add bike lanes whenever there's other work; resurfacing, replacing a water main, whatever. In the short term, this results in a lot of disconnected lanes, but longer term it results in more miles of bike lane, because reconfiguring a road that you already have to stripe anyway is cheap.
- Even if it's not (yet) much use as a bike lane, it may have a traffic calming effect, if it narrows the road, and therefore may improve safety for drivers and pedestrians.
posted by bfields at 6:27 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
And the number of bike rider that at dusk or even at night DO NOT wear ANY reflective material I yell out my auto window "I CANT SEE YOU"
But ... you could see them, because you knew they were there to yell at them.
In any case, I've had enough near-misses with drivers that I know that putting lights on one's bike does not solve the problem. One evening last month, I yelled loudly to stop a woman from making a left turn into me. Yes, I did everything right: I was crossing on a green light, in a painted bike lane, my lights were on, I had a neon cover for the bag on my back, and I even had a flashing reflector strap on my left ankle. That obviously wasn't enough.
posted by invokeuse at 6:38 PM on August 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
But ... you could see them, because you knew they were there to yell at them.
In any case, I've had enough near-misses with drivers that I know that putting lights on one's bike does not solve the problem. One evening last month, I yelled loudly to stop a woman from making a left turn into me. Yes, I did everything right: I was crossing on a green light, in a painted bike lane, my lights were on, I had a neon cover for the bag on my back, and I even had a flashing reflector strap on my left ankle. That obviously wasn't enough.
posted by invokeuse at 6:38 PM on August 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
My nighttime attitude is, anyone can run you down and get away with it. Why give some drunk the chance to plaster me against a car? That's why I don't even own a bike light, or one of those godawful reflective suits. Because if you've put yourself in a position where someone has to see you in order for you to be safe — to see you, and to give a fuck — you've already blown it.Sangamon Taylor, character in Neal Stephenson's Zodiac, on biking at night
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:44 PM on August 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'll just leave this reference here, then.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've lived and cycled in Japan, where people are more important than cars.
Drivers are told that if their car hits a cyclist, the driver goes to jail.
I was never afraid when cycling an Japan.
That's it. That's all it needs to be.
Because people are more important than cars.
posted by happyinmotion at 7:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [25 favorites]
Drivers are told that if their car hits a cyclist, the driver goes to jail.
I was never afraid when cycling an Japan.
That's it. That's all it needs to be.
Because people are more important than cars.
posted by happyinmotion at 7:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [25 favorites]
Biking home from the store today some guy in a truck going the opposite direction yelled at me to
"Get Off The Street!"
I just hope for a well appointed Ghost Bike.
posted by art.bikes at 7:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
"Get Off The Street!"
I just hope for a well appointed Ghost Bike.
posted by art.bikes at 7:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
That was a weird bit of satire.
It’s foreign to me that there are genuinely people out there that have such a distaste for cyclists.
But then again, I live in Portland Oregon where the cyclists sometimes fight back with asshole motorists and come out the victor.
Don’t get me wrong, I get upset when a cyclist is riding down a deliberately poorly maintained country road in Clackamas County barely wide enough for two cars and 3’ deep ditches on each side - but only because they don’t have a better, safer, route to take. Makes me want to build some Amsterdam style cycle infrastructure.
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 8:41 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
It’s foreign to me that there are genuinely people out there that have such a distaste for cyclists.
But then again, I live in Portland Oregon where the cyclists sometimes fight back with asshole motorists and come out the victor.
Don’t get me wrong, I get upset when a cyclist is riding down a deliberately poorly maintained country road in Clackamas County barely wide enough for two cars and 3’ deep ditches on each side - but only because they don’t have a better, safer, route to take. Makes me want to build some Amsterdam style cycle infrastructure.
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 8:41 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
... dedicated, protected (bollards or jersey barriers) bike lanes and bike paths are the only way to really make cycling safe.
But wait, there's another way! Just pick a date and, at midnight, swap all the bike/vehicle infrastructure so the roads are now bike lanes and the cars can drive on the bike lanes. There'd be a blank cheque written by every government and a swarm of roadworkers mobilised instantly to build all the infrastructure our precious car drivers need just to sustain life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Everyone wins!
posted by dg at 9:22 PM on August 17, 2023
But wait, there's another way! Just pick a date and, at midnight, swap all the bike/vehicle infrastructure so the roads are now bike lanes and the cars can drive on the bike lanes. There'd be a blank cheque written by every government and a swarm of roadworkers mobilised instantly to build all the infrastructure our precious car drivers need just to sustain life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Everyone wins!
posted by dg at 9:22 PM on August 17, 2023
But wait, there's another way!
Even simpler: require all politicians to take public transport or cycle to work.
posted by Zumbador at 9:35 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Even simpler: require all politicians to take public transport or cycle to work.
posted by Zumbador at 9:35 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
And yes thinking cyclists would be safer if only they were more visible is pretty disgusting.
It's right up there with telling female people how not to be raped.
posted by Zumbador at 9:40 PM on August 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's right up there with telling female people how not to be raped.
posted by Zumbador at 9:40 PM on August 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yeah, count me in to the "why would I want to be a more visible target?" chorus. And having been hit from.behind because I stopped for a stop sign, fuck the "bicyclists don't follow rules" bullshit too. Especially given that the other way to get drivers outrageously pissed off and violent is to engage in malicious compliance when driving a motor vehicle. Nothing pisses off drivers like following someone going the speed limit, or actually stopping at stop signs and before right turns on red.
And I've stopped road biking until I drop a grand on cameras, because recent "law enforcement" bullshit means I at least want my heirs to get the tickets dropped.
posted by straw at 10:03 PM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
And I've stopped road biking until I drop a grand on cameras, because recent "law enforcement" bullshit means I at least want my heirs to get the tickets dropped.
posted by straw at 10:03 PM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'd be happy to just ban private car subsidies. No curb cuts.
Wheelchair users need those curb cuts! Often the only way for wheelchair users to be able to cross the road is to use the kerb cuts that were put there for cars!
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 10:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
Wheelchair users need those curb cuts! Often the only way for wheelchair users to be able to cross the road is to use the kerb cuts that were put there for cars!
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 10:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
"Complains about new bike lane," "not enough parking," and "complains about different bike lane" are spaces in last November's NIMBY Public Comment Bingo, also by Chas Gillespie.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:39 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:39 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wheelchair users need those curb cuts!
Curb cuts at junctions/intersections, not driveways. And human scale, not car scale.
posted by Dysk at 11:19 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Curb cuts at junctions/intersections, not driveways. And human scale, not car scale.
posted by Dysk at 11:19 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
No curb cuts.
Wait, what?
Yeah, sorry - I didn't know that term was used in an accessibility context, though it makes sense. I'm certainly not against accessible streets or assisted mobility! I've only heard the term used in the context of cutting a curb to facilitate a private driveway, which effectively turns a public space into a private one; that's the part I'm opposed to.
posted by mhoye at 11:50 PM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
Wait, what?
Yeah, sorry - I didn't know that term was used in an accessibility context, though it makes sense. I'm certainly not against accessible streets or assisted mobility! I've only heard the term used in the context of cutting a curb to facilitate a private driveway, which effectively turns a public space into a private one; that's the part I'm opposed to.
posted by mhoye at 11:50 PM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've only heard the term used in the context of cutting a curb to facilitate a private driveway, which effectively turns a public space into a private one; that's the part I'm opposed to
So, I use a power wheelchair, and those places where a curb has been cut to facilitate a private driveway? They make life for me, as a wheelchair user, much safer and easier. Because kerb cuts built for wheelchair users are
a) too rare
b) often not where I want to cross
c) poorly maintained
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 12:14 AM on August 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
So, I use a power wheelchair, and those places where a curb has been cut to facilitate a private driveway? They make life for me, as a wheelchair user, much safer and easier. Because kerb cuts built for wheelchair users are
a) too rare
b) often not where I want to cross
c) poorly maintained
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 12:14 AM on August 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
Cars, man. Why?
Outside the city the grocery store is 20 miles away.
Everything is 20 miles away, the school, the doctor, the church.... welcome to 95% of the non urban U.S..
Even with a car, Los Angeles is like an hour or two across. Good luck on your bicycle.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:37 AM on August 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Outside the city the grocery store is 20 miles away.
Everything is 20 miles away, the school, the doctor, the church.... welcome to 95% of the non urban U.S..
Even with a car, Los Angeles is like an hour or two across. Good luck on your bicycle.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:37 AM on August 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
I feel like I'm obliged to say anybody interested in this should check out Strong Towns and Not Just Bikes on YouTube. The first is primarily interested in fixing American infrastructure, the latter talks about how good Dutch city planning is.
As an American that recently moved to the Netherlands the cycling infrastructure here is amazing. I'm legitimately less afraid of taking my bicycle to the grocery than I am of the stairs to my bedroom; those are so steep they're practically a ladder.
posted by tminos at 3:53 AM on August 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
As an American that recently moved to the Netherlands the cycling infrastructure here is amazing. I'm legitimately less afraid of taking my bicycle to the grocery than I am of the stairs to my bedroom; those are so steep they're practically a ladder.
posted by tminos at 3:53 AM on August 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
Thanks kaibutsu, I now have an earworm.
Cars! Huh, good God y'all
What are they good for?
Absolutely *nothing*
Say it, say it, say it
posted by Zumbador at 3:54 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Cars! Huh, good God y'all
What are they good for?
Absolutely *nothing*
Say it, say it, say it
posted by Zumbador at 3:54 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Then I got hit by a car. Then I got hit by a car again. Then my bike got stolen, but I got another one, and then I got hit by a car on that one. My last bike I somehow managed to give away before anyone could hit me with their car.
[...]
So yeah. This article sums up why I don't cycle any more and why I'll probably never ride a bike on public roads again.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:57 PM on August 17
This is terrible but I now better understand why you have moved to your current system.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
[...]
So yeah. This article sums up why I don't cycle any more and why I'll probably never ride a bike on public roads again.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:57 PM on August 17
This is terrible but I now better understand why you have moved to your current system.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
Another American living in the Netherlands here. One option is to hold local government accountable (in addition to drivers). That's what happens here. If there's a collision, the area is studied to see how it could be made safer. Good road infrastructure is designed so that the safe thing is the easiest thing to do, so that traffic of different speeds has sufficient separation (bikes are not cars and "vehicular cycling" was discredited long ago), and so that the shape of the road itself enforces speed without the need for police (making cars take 90 degree turns and having streets be narrow or have zig zagging chicanes).
Go look up proper infrastructure (the Bicycle Dutch youtube and blog are a goldmine for this) and sue your cities and towns for infrastructure that doesn't kill people. Safe streets are as important as safe drinking water when you don't really have a choice in using them every day.
posted by antinomia at 5:03 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
Go look up proper infrastructure (the Bicycle Dutch youtube and blog are a goldmine for this) and sue your cities and towns for infrastructure that doesn't kill people. Safe streets are as important as safe drinking water when you don't really have a choice in using them every day.
posted by antinomia at 5:03 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
liam665 - Change the law
happyinmotion - Drivers are told that if their car hits a cyclist, the driver goes to jail.
aleph - Its got to happen like booze.
Two unicycles and some duct tape - ...you'd be laughed all the way out of the legislature just for suggesting it.
I remember reading about a father who was legally drunk and driving his kids when a car jumped the median and hit them head on - completely not his fault - he was charged with felony child abuse.
So I guess - maybe?
posted by mmrtnt at 5:40 AM on August 18, 2023
happyinmotion - Drivers are told that if their car hits a cyclist, the driver goes to jail.
aleph - Its got to happen like booze.
Two unicycles and some duct tape - ...you'd be laughed all the way out of the legislature just for suggesting it.
I remember reading about a father who was legally drunk and driving his kids when a car jumped the median and hit them head on - completely not his fault - he was charged with felony child abuse.
So I guess - maybe?
posted by mmrtnt at 5:40 AM on August 18, 2023
I yell out my auto window "I CANT SEE YOU"
People in cars feel free to yell rude things at cyclists because they know they can get the last word in and drive away. It's like internet comments, except drivers in the U.S. can (and do) literally kill cyclists without repercussion.
Cars, man. Why?
As with everything else in the America, the reason is white supremacy, misogyny, and capitalism.
Cars enabled suburbs, white flight, and highways (paid for not by the suburbs), all because when segregation was legally struck down, they had to create de facto segregation.
Many women are made to feel unsafe on public transportation, the same way women are made to feel unsafe when existing anywhere in public without male escort.
Rich people don't want to be on mass transit with "the poors."
Therefore, cars.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:44 AM on August 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
People in cars feel free to yell rude things at cyclists because they know they can get the last word in and drive away. It's like internet comments, except drivers in the U.S. can (and do) literally kill cyclists without repercussion.
Cars, man. Why?
As with everything else in the America, the reason is white supremacy, misogyny, and capitalism.
Cars enabled suburbs, white flight, and highways (paid for not by the suburbs), all because when segregation was legally struck down, they had to create de facto segregation.
Many women are made to feel unsafe on public transportation, the same way women are made to feel unsafe when existing anywhere in public without male escort.
Rich people don't want to be on mass transit with "the poors."
Therefore, cars.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:44 AM on August 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
Has the passive voice historically functioned to deflect responsibility and consolidate unjust power arrangements?
One bookseller referred to this as "the passive bureaucratic exonerative."
posted by doctornemo at 6:46 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
One bookseller referred to this as "the passive bureaucratic exonerative."
posted by doctornemo at 6:46 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
If there's a collision, the area is studied to see how it could be made safer.
This is true and just amazed me. After a car (a truck actually) hit a bicycle nearby here in Amsterdam, they looked at why it had happened (bad car visibility on the turn) and then actually implemented a road redesign to fix this - all within a matter of months!
Recommend the Not Just Bikes channel on Youtube. Why Netherlands is the best country in the world for ... drivers.
posted by vacapinta at 8:02 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is true and just amazed me. After a car (a truck actually) hit a bicycle nearby here in Amsterdam, they looked at why it had happened (bad car visibility on the turn) and then actually implemented a road redesign to fix this - all within a matter of months!
Recommend the Not Just Bikes channel on Youtube. Why Netherlands is the best country in the world for ... drivers.
posted by vacapinta at 8:02 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ya this was something that I learned from Not Just Bikes (or was it Strong Towns?) - there's the design speed of the road and the legally posted speed. The design speed is how fast you feel you can safely travel on the road. You can set the legal speed limit lower than the design speed but people will naturally and pretty inevitably break the speed limit. Speed traps and tickets will only temporarily slow people down. In North America the design speed of most of our roads is way faster than what is safe for anybody outside of a car. As antinomia wrote above, the solution is to do what they do in Netherlands - design roads so that drivers naturally avoid speeding.
posted by kaymac at 8:31 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kaymac at 8:31 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Outside the city the grocery store is 20 miles away.
And you know what mostly fixes this? Grade separated bike trails and an ebike if you want some assistance.
I'm 7-8 miles from town, the nearest grocery store and my doctor but I live next to a totally independent bike trail that barely even crosses roads.
Turns out it's not the distance that's really the issue but the insane stress and risk of trying to bike on suburban or rural roads.
The protected, separated bike path turns that sheer terror into a very pleasant ride where you're not constantly looking over your shoulder or dealing with traffic control and dangerous traffic at intersections. On an ebike it makes it very low effort and even fun.
Yes, it takes longer but if rural and suburban areas had more useful bike paths that actually connected usefully to places people need to go you can cover a lot more distance than you'd think when compared to urban/suburban biking where you're fighting for every mile riding in traffic with cars. By useful I mean more than a recreational bike path that mostly connects parks and other recreation facilities.
If bikes had even a fraction of the roads and infrastructure that cars do we wouldn't be having most of the discussions in this thread.
posted by loquacious at 10:13 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
And you know what mostly fixes this? Grade separated bike trails and an ebike if you want some assistance.
I'm 7-8 miles from town, the nearest grocery store and my doctor but I live next to a totally independent bike trail that barely even crosses roads.
Turns out it's not the distance that's really the issue but the insane stress and risk of trying to bike on suburban or rural roads.
The protected, separated bike path turns that sheer terror into a very pleasant ride where you're not constantly looking over your shoulder or dealing with traffic control and dangerous traffic at intersections. On an ebike it makes it very low effort and even fun.
Yes, it takes longer but if rural and suburban areas had more useful bike paths that actually connected usefully to places people need to go you can cover a lot more distance than you'd think when compared to urban/suburban biking where you're fighting for every mile riding in traffic with cars. By useful I mean more than a recreational bike path that mostly connects parks and other recreation facilities.
If bikes had even a fraction of the roads and infrastructure that cars do we wouldn't be having most of the discussions in this thread.
posted by loquacious at 10:13 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
E-bikes on bike trails is a whole other angry discussion.
posted by surlyben at 10:20 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 10:20 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
To change that, you have to change America.
It's too much. Amerika will never change. Too much white male supremacy and testosterone. The car culture is just out of hand. If a sedan or smaller SUV is considered wimpy and the guy who drives it is a beta pussy, how can a cyclist or pedestrian ever be respected? My husband used to be a considerate driver, and whether it's dementia or just the infection of 'vehicular ego' he is now one of the men who have to ride on the tail of a slower vehicle, juke in and out to pass, which doesn't get him any faster to the light or off ramp than the people he cut in front of. Peel out to leave the green light, accelerate, brake hard at the red. Why? Part of it is the traffic around him--he's better when there's fewer cars on the road. His brother used to commute by bike 12 miles across town to work daily, and DH was considerate of all bikers then. Now he doesn't know anyone who does it, and figures bikers are just recreationists who are trying to get in his way. I hate it, and yet he's better than 99% of the other males that I see driving!!!
Cars, guns, and capitalism. This country is headed straight to hell.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:30 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's too much. Amerika will never change. Too much white male supremacy and testosterone. The car culture is just out of hand. If a sedan or smaller SUV is considered wimpy and the guy who drives it is a beta pussy, how can a cyclist or pedestrian ever be respected? My husband used to be a considerate driver, and whether it's dementia or just the infection of 'vehicular ego' he is now one of the men who have to ride on the tail of a slower vehicle, juke in and out to pass, which doesn't get him any faster to the light or off ramp than the people he cut in front of. Peel out to leave the green light, accelerate, brake hard at the red. Why? Part of it is the traffic around him--he's better when there's fewer cars on the road. His brother used to commute by bike 12 miles across town to work daily, and DH was considerate of all bikers then. Now he doesn't know anyone who does it, and figures bikers are just recreationists who are trying to get in his way. I hate it, and yet he's better than 99% of the other males that I see driving!!!
Cars, guns, and capitalism. This country is headed straight to hell.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:30 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
E-bikes are bikes, they belong on bike trails, end of story.
Every person who pushes back against an e-bike on a bike trail is making it that much harder to take a car off the road.
posted by ChrisR at 10:47 AM on August 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Every person who pushes back against an e-bike on a bike trail is making it that much harder to take a car off the road.
posted by ChrisR at 10:47 AM on August 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Outside the city the grocery store is 20 miles away.
And you know what mostly fixes this? Grade separated bike trails and an ebike if you want some assistance.
Like everything in the United States this "one problem" is actually 307 problems, all requiring simultaneous solution if any traction is to be gained.
20 miles will never be a distance that a parent buying groceries for a family will travel on bike willingly. I'm sorry, I don't fuckin care how fun biking is (I hate it, personally, and I've never even tried to bike in traffic) that is a massive time suck and requires substantial energy even with "some assistance."
To make biking the default for most of the United States requires essentially everything else about the United States to be completely different from how it is, first.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:14 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
And you know what mostly fixes this? Grade separated bike trails and an ebike if you want some assistance.
Like everything in the United States this "one problem" is actually 307 problems, all requiring simultaneous solution if any traction is to be gained.
20 miles will never be a distance that a parent buying groceries for a family will travel on bike willingly. I'm sorry, I don't fuckin care how fun biking is (I hate it, personally, and I've never even tried to bike in traffic) that is a massive time suck and requires substantial energy even with "some assistance."
To make biking the default for most of the United States requires essentially everything else about the United States to be completely different from how it is, first.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:14 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
E-bikes are bikes, they belong on bike trails, end of story.
Some e-bikes can go 50mph, so no, not quite the same as a bike. Just like it makes sense to give pedestrians their own lane separate from bikes, if some bikes are significantly faster they belong elsewhere.
posted by coffeecat at 12:36 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some e-bikes can go 50mph, so no, not quite the same as a bike. Just like it makes sense to give pedestrians their own lane separate from bikes, if some bikes are significantly faster they belong elsewhere.
posted by coffeecat at 12:36 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
if some bikes are significantly faster they belong elsewhere.
If some e-bike riders are unsafe for conditions they belong elsewhere. That's not the fault of the bike.
posted by Etrigan at 12:52 PM on August 18, 2023
If some e-bike riders are unsafe for conditions they belong elsewhere. That's not the fault of the bike.
posted by Etrigan at 12:52 PM on August 18, 2023
An e-bike is a small motorcycle. If you allow them on the bike path, gasoline motorcycles will be there too, someday.
posted by Rash at 1:34 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Rash at 1:34 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am not going to try to litigate the meaning of e-bike here, but I'm gonna point out that this kind of gatekeeping bullshit is the sort of infighting that does an amazing job of letting car culture win. E-bikes are an incredible tool for accessibility and freedom from both the impact and burden of car ownership.
posted by ChrisR at 1:48 PM on August 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by ChrisR at 1:48 PM on August 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
I can't drive or ride a bike due to a fucked knee. So as a perpetual pedestrian, a transit rider, and a regular target of abuse for three and a half different minorities (disabled person, fat person and trans woman), I would like to wish a large number of drivers a nice quick trip to Hell for how they treat pedestrians and bike riders, for their general apparent attitude that we should be glad to be sacrificed on the altar of their automobile.
I walk with a cane. If it happens, I want my road to Hell to let me be just in front of the guy that plastered me, with my cane through his heart.
posted by mephron at 1:58 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I walk with a cane. If it happens, I want my road to Hell to let me be just in front of the guy that plastered me, with my cane through his heart.
posted by mephron at 1:58 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Some e-bikes can go 50mph, so no, not quite the same as a bike. Just like it makes sense to give pedestrians their own lane separate from bikes, if some bikes are significantly faster they belong elsewhere.
Some cars can go 150+ MPH and aren't banned from public roads or forced to have speed limiters.
My DIY ebike can get up to 40+ MPH even with my fat ass on it, but I don't do that, I'm used to going faster on descents on an analog bike, and I definitely never, ever do that on bike trails and am a very polite and safe rider.
One of the huge benefits to an ebike is that I don't have to even think about carrying momentum and effort like I used to riding an analog bike, so with an ebike when passing pedestrians and I can slow down to like 3-6 mph walking speeds to pass very safely and then I'm right back up to a nice cruising speed after I pass.
I use the power of my ebike for hauling groceries, running errands and climbing hills in ways where a 250-500w motor would just overheat or wear out far too soon. And at this point with dealing with long covid and ME/CFS and old age it's basically an assisted mobility device for me.
Because there's no way I could walk to my nearest bus semi-rural stop. I can barely walk a few hundred yards now without needing to sit down and rest, and even then I would pay huge costs in a fatigue and PEM episode.
But with my quasi US-legal DIY ebike with a throttle that means I can stop pedaling at any time and it will climb steep hills with or without my pedaling, even with a heavy load of groceries.
Yes, there is brand new problem of *some* people on ebikes being totally dangerous and stupid on ebikes, including some that look suspiciously too much like mopeds, scooters and actual motorcycles and they're bringing their carbrainTM attitudes into bike and MUP paths and it sucks.
But as a life long cyclist that has never owned a motor vehicle besides my ebike - I can tell you that this isn't really new for human powered cyclists. I have never not experienced people going too fast on MUPs or not sharing the paths and rails and doing silly things like going 3-4 wide around narrow blind turns and corners, and I mean in all classes of cyclists.
Road/enduro cyclists in full kit and even riding in teams and drafting blasting through crowded MUPs, or MTB riders going off trail and riding erractically all over the place or throwing up wheelies or manuals, or even casual recreation cyclists on REI cyclists toodling around blind corners in thick packs and pushing pedestrians and other cyclists off the trail or worse.
And so it bothers me a whole lot when people say all ebikes need to be banned completely or from MUPs or bike paths and trails, or limited entirely to 12MPH, or be no more than 250 watts, or have no throttle at all and only pedal assist. It sure sounds like ableism to me.
And yet we never, ever seem to ask the question if we should speed or weight limit motor vehicles, or ask if someone really needs a 300+ horsepower engine in a sedan, sports car or SUV. Or ask if should maybe impose speed restriction devices on any of these vehicles.
This proposal is always - with no surprise here - met with really intense amounts of outrage from even relatively sedate car drivers and owners, and full on let's throw hands fighting words to gearheads and auto fans.
Hell, as far as I know people are still getting tax breaks on SUVs and suburban assault vehicles through the heavy duty truck loophole and you get financially rewarded if you buy an oversized, overpowered SUV.
And it bothers me even more when it sure seems like most of the people who want to impose heavier restrictions on ebikes whether it's where they can ride or how much power or what features they have are people who mainly drive motor vehicles for their transport or generally don't use cycling for commuting or general transportation.
Meanwhile I'm out there all year round rain or shine and sometimes even in snow just trying to get to a doctor's appointment or buy groceries.
The problem here really isn't the ebike. The problem is mostly just the tired old story that a lot of people are just assholes. The other parts of the problem would include things like bicycle safety and riding classes, education about trail rules and etiquette and backing that up with some amount of reasonable enforcement.
Not to mention more dedicated infrastructure designed for transportation. Forcing cyclists on to MUP with pedestrians isn't an ideal solution even with analog bikes.
(Which, heh, yeah, barely happens with motor vehicles and roads these days, either. IANAL, YMMV.)
posted by loquacious at 2:10 PM on August 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
Some cars can go 150+ MPH and aren't banned from public roads or forced to have speed limiters.
My DIY ebike can get up to 40+ MPH even with my fat ass on it, but I don't do that, I'm used to going faster on descents on an analog bike, and I definitely never, ever do that on bike trails and am a very polite and safe rider.
One of the huge benefits to an ebike is that I don't have to even think about carrying momentum and effort like I used to riding an analog bike, so with an ebike when passing pedestrians and I can slow down to like 3-6 mph walking speeds to pass very safely and then I'm right back up to a nice cruising speed after I pass.
I use the power of my ebike for hauling groceries, running errands and climbing hills in ways where a 250-500w motor would just overheat or wear out far too soon. And at this point with dealing with long covid and ME/CFS and old age it's basically an assisted mobility device for me.
Because there's no way I could walk to my nearest bus semi-rural stop. I can barely walk a few hundred yards now without needing to sit down and rest, and even then I would pay huge costs in a fatigue and PEM episode.
But with my quasi US-legal DIY ebike with a throttle that means I can stop pedaling at any time and it will climb steep hills with or without my pedaling, even with a heavy load of groceries.
Yes, there is brand new problem of *some* people on ebikes being totally dangerous and stupid on ebikes, including some that look suspiciously too much like mopeds, scooters and actual motorcycles and they're bringing their carbrain
But as a life long cyclist that has never owned a motor vehicle besides my ebike - I can tell you that this isn't really new for human powered cyclists. I have never not experienced people going too fast on MUPs or not sharing the paths and rails and doing silly things like going 3-4 wide around narrow blind turns and corners, and I mean in all classes of cyclists.
Road/enduro cyclists in full kit and even riding in teams and drafting blasting through crowded MUPs, or MTB riders going off trail and riding erractically all over the place or throwing up wheelies or manuals, or even casual recreation cyclists on REI cyclists toodling around blind corners in thick packs and pushing pedestrians and other cyclists off the trail or worse.
And so it bothers me a whole lot when people say all ebikes need to be banned completely or from MUPs or bike paths and trails, or limited entirely to 12MPH, or be no more than 250 watts, or have no throttle at all and only pedal assist. It sure sounds like ableism to me.
And yet we never, ever seem to ask the question if we should speed or weight limit motor vehicles, or ask if someone really needs a 300+ horsepower engine in a sedan, sports car or SUV. Or ask if should maybe impose speed restriction devices on any of these vehicles.
This proposal is always - with no surprise here - met with really intense amounts of outrage from even relatively sedate car drivers and owners, and full on let's throw hands fighting words to gearheads and auto fans.
Hell, as far as I know people are still getting tax breaks on SUVs and suburban assault vehicles through the heavy duty truck loophole and you get financially rewarded if you buy an oversized, overpowered SUV.
And it bothers me even more when it sure seems like most of the people who want to impose heavier restrictions on ebikes whether it's where they can ride or how much power or what features they have are people who mainly drive motor vehicles for their transport or generally don't use cycling for commuting or general transportation.
Meanwhile I'm out there all year round rain or shine and sometimes even in snow just trying to get to a doctor's appointment or buy groceries.
The problem here really isn't the ebike. The problem is mostly just the tired old story that a lot of people are just assholes. The other parts of the problem would include things like bicycle safety and riding classes, education about trail rules and etiquette and backing that up with some amount of reasonable enforcement.
Not to mention more dedicated infrastructure designed for transportation. Forcing cyclists on to MUP with pedestrians isn't an ideal solution even with analog bikes.
(Which, heh, yeah, barely happens with motor vehicles and roads these days, either. IANAL, YMMV.)
posted by loquacious at 2:10 PM on August 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
Forcing cyclists on to MUP with pedestrians isn't an ideal solution even with analog bikes.
Agreed. I've seen a number of areas where park paths are separated into bike lanes and ped lands. Prospect Park is like that, Forest Park in St. Louis is like that. Kelly Drive in Philadelphia is not like that and you get the Asshole Problem. My only real concern re: eBikes on MUPs is that they can go faster and are heavier than analog bikes, so if you get an asshole on one of them, they could cause serious damage to a ped beyond what even your most dedicated Lance Armstrong impersonator could accomplish.
But this is an almost intractable problem because it is so hard to get even the most modest cycling infrastructure installed. I just saw a petition to install a new dedicated, protected bike lane near me. It is being promoted by the Bicycle Coalition. How long is this lane? ONE BLOCK. My comments on how pointless this would be were met with "well, the blocks above that are too narrow, and, you know, parking."
It actually might be possible to get Kelly Drive updated to separate the peds from the bikes, though. At least, most of the way.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:30 PM on August 18, 2023
Agreed. I've seen a number of areas where park paths are separated into bike lanes and ped lands. Prospect Park is like that, Forest Park in St. Louis is like that. Kelly Drive in Philadelphia is not like that and you get the Asshole Problem. My only real concern re: eBikes on MUPs is that they can go faster and are heavier than analog bikes, so if you get an asshole on one of them, they could cause serious damage to a ped beyond what even your most dedicated Lance Armstrong impersonator could accomplish.
But this is an almost intractable problem because it is so hard to get even the most modest cycling infrastructure installed. I just saw a petition to install a new dedicated, protected bike lane near me. It is being promoted by the Bicycle Coalition. How long is this lane? ONE BLOCK. My comments on how pointless this would be were met with "well, the blocks above that are too narrow, and, you know, parking."
It actually might be possible to get Kelly Drive updated to separate the peds from the bikes, though. At least, most of the way.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:30 PM on August 18, 2023
And it bothers me even more when it sure seems like most of the people who want to impose heavier restrictions on ebikes whether it's where they can ride or how much power or what features they have are people who mainly drive motor vehicles for their transport or generally don't use cycling for commuting or general transportation.Quoting loquacious for emphasis. It's hilarious* to me that the laws that dictate which bikes and scooters are allowed where are made by a group of people who only at best use them for recreation.
Let's also note that I have only ever seen speed limiters on rental bikes and scooters and never once on a car. I can be crossing a bridge on my Lime bike, and it'll all but slam on my brakes because some scold decided that it was necessary to promote safety by slowing down cyclists... as cars blow past me on the Ballard bridge 10-20mph above an already-generous speed limit.
* not really hilarious
posted by ChrisR at 2:43 PM on August 18, 2023
20 miles will never be a distance that a parent buying groceries for a family will travel on bike willingly. I'm sorry, I don't fuckin care how fun biking is (I hate it, personally, and I've never even tried to bike in traffic) that is a massive time suck and requires substantial energy even with "some assistance."
To make biking the default for most of the United States requires essentially everything else about the United States to be completely different from how it is, first.
I know and feel that. I'm not saying everyone can or should bike or ebike. I'm saying many can and would replace some of their trips (or even all of them) even in rural areas if there were paths for it, because it's lived part of my experience.
I will acknowledge that I do live in a known cycling friendly place, so there's families around here that use the trails and their kid-carrying cargo ebikes to do as much of their transportation and errands and even recreational activities as they can and they're definitely doing 30, 40 and 50 mile days sometimes because it adds up in a hurry.
Let's take a step back from "bicycles" as the alternative transportation and infrastructure concept, because some people really don't like riding "bicycles", or simply can't, for many valid reasons.
And I'm going to get a bit solarpunk, here.
Something that ebike technology is also helping make possible is a very wide variety of different kinds of light weight electrically powered vehicles. I've seen upright cargo/warehouse tricycles, and recumbent tricycles or tadpole trikes, and even quad bikes or full on enclosed microcars.
There's a company that's been developing and making a cool quad bike that's designed for both walking speeds and cycling speeds so that people with mobility issues can go for a hike or bike ride with their friends and partners, and they're super cool because it's way better than an electric wheelchair and more like a bicycle-sized rock crawling micro jeep mixed with a powered mountain bike.
A friend of mine has a couple of e-trikes including an absolutely massive tilt-bed utility cargo trike that weighs as much as a golf cart, and he runs an entirely electrically powered landscaping business around these e-trikes and vehicles.
The ebike part means it doesn't have to be just a bicycle. It can be a little heavier. It turns a slow, stable and easy to pilot but hard to pedal tricycle into something that can just cruise and carry cargo with almost no effort at all.
Now with that in mind, imagine more and better bike paths everywhere, especially ones that weren't MUPs and had pedestrian paths on their own paths.
Now imagine instead of having to ride a bicycle, it could even be more like a little car. Or a trike. Hell, it could be an easy chair with a nice umbrella. It doesn't even have to have pedals at all.
And am I really describing "smaller, slower cars" with extra (or less) steps?
Yep, that's kind of the point if you want more cycling or PEV or alternative transport accessibility.
Would it take longer to go 20 miles into town to get groceries? Would it likely be unpleasant or even impossible in certain weather? Sure. But even with snow there are Nordic countries that deal with snow and people cycle year-round because they actually plow and maintain the bike infrastructure because they see it as real infrastructure and not just an optional recreational facility.
Why should we do "this is just mini cars with extra/less steps" and encourage and foster small or personal electric vehicles?
Well, the energy consumption is drastically less. My ebike uses about $5-10 in electricity per year, and that's only if I was riding it and running the battery flat every single day. And I could even buy a solar panel off of Amazon that would be plenty to charge it every day rain or shine. My entire "fuel" budget for a year is effectively less than a single gallon of gas right now.
The lower speeds are also a lot safer for everyone, and also more energy efficient.
And even better, it can be a whole lot more pleasant. It's a lot easier for a bike path to also be a very nice greenbelt than a road can be, and I find that you care less about longer transit times when you're surrounded by plants and flowers and moving slow enough to appreciate them.
It can turn running errands or commuting to work into a calming, relaxing activity that's good for people both physically and mentally.
Am I imagining a slower, softer and more pleasant world that doesn't exist yet?
Yep. That's also kind of the point.
The reasons why your grocery store is 20 miles away or work is an hour each way in traffic is part of the other 307 problems which include things like why there aren't really any non-corporate or small grocery stores or businesses left closer to people or why working from home isn't the default whenever possible.
Ebikes and PEVs are revolutionary. There just as revolutionary and liberating as the original safety bicycle, and as a life long cyclist I'm not saying this casually. Even basic class 1/2 ebikes turn cycling from "this is a lot of effort" even in the best cycling conditions to "ok, i'm basically pleasantly coasting downhill all the time."
They're already transforming the world and doing more to significantly reduce fossil fuels used for transportation per capita and traveled mile than anything we've seen or tried so far, even more than plug-in full electrics or hybrids. (I have/had receipts for this, somewhere.)
posted by loquacious at 2:56 PM on August 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
To make biking the default for most of the United States requires essentially everything else about the United States to be completely different from how it is, first.
I know and feel that. I'm not saying everyone can or should bike or ebike. I'm saying many can and would replace some of their trips (or even all of them) even in rural areas if there were paths for it, because it's lived part of my experience.
I will acknowledge that I do live in a known cycling friendly place, so there's families around here that use the trails and their kid-carrying cargo ebikes to do as much of their transportation and errands and even recreational activities as they can and they're definitely doing 30, 40 and 50 mile days sometimes because it adds up in a hurry.
Let's take a step back from "bicycles" as the alternative transportation and infrastructure concept, because some people really don't like riding "bicycles", or simply can't, for many valid reasons.
And I'm going to get a bit solarpunk, here.
Something that ebike technology is also helping make possible is a very wide variety of different kinds of light weight electrically powered vehicles. I've seen upright cargo/warehouse tricycles, and recumbent tricycles or tadpole trikes, and even quad bikes or full on enclosed microcars.
There's a company that's been developing and making a cool quad bike that's designed for both walking speeds and cycling speeds so that people with mobility issues can go for a hike or bike ride with their friends and partners, and they're super cool because it's way better than an electric wheelchair and more like a bicycle-sized rock crawling micro jeep mixed with a powered mountain bike.
A friend of mine has a couple of e-trikes including an absolutely massive tilt-bed utility cargo trike that weighs as much as a golf cart, and he runs an entirely electrically powered landscaping business around these e-trikes and vehicles.
The ebike part means it doesn't have to be just a bicycle. It can be a little heavier. It turns a slow, stable and easy to pilot but hard to pedal tricycle into something that can just cruise and carry cargo with almost no effort at all.
Now with that in mind, imagine more and better bike paths everywhere, especially ones that weren't MUPs and had pedestrian paths on their own paths.
Now imagine instead of having to ride a bicycle, it could even be more like a little car. Or a trike. Hell, it could be an easy chair with a nice umbrella. It doesn't even have to have pedals at all.
And am I really describing "smaller, slower cars" with extra (or less) steps?
Yep, that's kind of the point if you want more cycling or PEV or alternative transport accessibility.
Would it take longer to go 20 miles into town to get groceries? Would it likely be unpleasant or even impossible in certain weather? Sure. But even with snow there are Nordic countries that deal with snow and people cycle year-round because they actually plow and maintain the bike infrastructure because they see it as real infrastructure and not just an optional recreational facility.
Why should we do "this is just mini cars with extra/less steps" and encourage and foster small or personal electric vehicles?
Well, the energy consumption is drastically less. My ebike uses about $5-10 in electricity per year, and that's only if I was riding it and running the battery flat every single day. And I could even buy a solar panel off of Amazon that would be plenty to charge it every day rain or shine. My entire "fuel" budget for a year is effectively less than a single gallon of gas right now.
The lower speeds are also a lot safer for everyone, and also more energy efficient.
And even better, it can be a whole lot more pleasant. It's a lot easier for a bike path to also be a very nice greenbelt than a road can be, and I find that you care less about longer transit times when you're surrounded by plants and flowers and moving slow enough to appreciate them.
It can turn running errands or commuting to work into a calming, relaxing activity that's good for people both physically and mentally.
Am I imagining a slower, softer and more pleasant world that doesn't exist yet?
Yep. That's also kind of the point.
The reasons why your grocery store is 20 miles away or work is an hour each way in traffic is part of the other 307 problems which include things like why there aren't really any non-corporate or small grocery stores or businesses left closer to people or why working from home isn't the default whenever possible.
Ebikes and PEVs are revolutionary. There just as revolutionary and liberating as the original safety bicycle, and as a life long cyclist I'm not saying this casually. Even basic class 1/2 ebikes turn cycling from "this is a lot of effort" even in the best cycling conditions to "ok, i'm basically pleasantly coasting downhill all the time."
They're already transforming the world and doing more to significantly reduce fossil fuels used for transportation per capita and traveled mile than anything we've seen or tried so far, even more than plug-in full electrics or hybrids. (I have/had receipts for this, somewhere.)
posted by loquacious at 2:56 PM on August 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
Because people are more important than cars.
This phrasing cannot help but bring something to mind for me. One of the defining moments in urban planning in this country came in 1971. At the north end of Toronto, running east-west, is the busiest highway in Canada, the 401; these days it’s eighteen lanes at its widest point. Toronto’s southern edge is Lake Ontario, and near its shore is the Gardiner Expressway, a mid-twentieth century elevated roadway meant as a means to bypass the traffic of downtown.
Unfortunately, the execution of the Gardiner was less than ideal: it was elevated several storeys in the air to avoid severing the lake from the city, but in practice it’s been a huge wall between the two. After dozens of winters and their road salt, the whole thing is composed of crumbling, rust-streaked concrete that can only call to mind the infrastructure of 1970s Bulgaria.
The primary interface between the two is the north-south Don Valley Parkway, a couple of km east of the core. By the 1950s, there was a proposal to add another one closer to the core, off to the west: the Spadina Expressway (Spadina being a major street downtown).
This one would have destroyed several lively neighbourhoods, and public opposition (spearheaded by local resident Jane Jacobs, who’d experienced what Robert Moses did to New York) was high. A little segment of the expressway, in the form of Allen Road, was built, but it ends kind of abruptly in a T-junction with a busy street.
When Ontario premier Bill Davis announced the termination of the project in 1971, he did so in a speech to the legislature. The centrepiece was three lines:
In any event, the Overton Window shift means it is hard to imagine that barely fifty years ago a conservative premier of a conservative province would use that kind of rhetoric to cancel some car infrastructure.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:55 AM on August 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
This phrasing cannot help but bring something to mind for me. One of the defining moments in urban planning in this country came in 1971. At the north end of Toronto, running east-west, is the busiest highway in Canada, the 401; these days it’s eighteen lanes at its widest point. Toronto’s southern edge is Lake Ontario, and near its shore is the Gardiner Expressway, a mid-twentieth century elevated roadway meant as a means to bypass the traffic of downtown.
Unfortunately, the execution of the Gardiner was less than ideal: it was elevated several storeys in the air to avoid severing the lake from the city, but in practice it’s been a huge wall between the two. After dozens of winters and their road salt, the whole thing is composed of crumbling, rust-streaked concrete that can only call to mind the infrastructure of 1970s Bulgaria.
The primary interface between the two is the north-south Don Valley Parkway, a couple of km east of the core. By the 1950s, there was a proposal to add another one closer to the core, off to the west: the Spadina Expressway (Spadina being a major street downtown).
This one would have destroyed several lively neighbourhoods, and public opposition (spearheaded by local resident Jane Jacobs, who’d experienced what Robert Moses did to New York) was high. A little segment of the expressway, in the form of Allen Road, was built, but it ends kind of abruptly in a T-junction with a busy street.
When Ontario premier Bill Davis announced the termination of the project in 1971, he did so in a speech to the legislature. The centrepiece was three lines:
“We must make a decision as to whether we are trying to build a transportation system to serve the automobile or one which will best serve people. If we are building a transportation system to serve the automobile, the Spadina Expressway would be a good place to start. But if we are building a transportation system to serve people, the Spadina Expressway is a good place to stop.”Davis was a new Tory premier, coming into power after about thirty years of Tory rule of the province (he would ultimately serve more than a decade in the post). He went on to become an eminence grise of the party, although the 1990s shift to the right meant he fell out of favour with subsequent Tory governments. He died just over two years ago at age 92.
In any event, the Overton Window shift means it is hard to imagine that barely fifty years ago a conservative premier of a conservative province would use that kind of rhetoric to cancel some car infrastructure.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:55 AM on August 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
And yes thinking cyclists would be safer if only they were more visible is pretty disgusting.
It's right up there with telling female people how not to be raped.
So we're just gonna let this sit here like it's a normal and reasonable thing to say or think?
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 10:04 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's right up there with telling female people how not to be raped.
So we're just gonna let this sit here like it's a normal and reasonable thing to say or think?
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 10:04 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
So we're just gonna let this sit here like it's a normal and reasonable thing to say or think?
As a woman who bikes, please please please let the answer to this question be a resounding YES ABSOLUTELY.
posted by aniola at 12:10 PM on August 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
As a woman who bikes, please please please let the answer to this question be a resounding YES ABSOLUTELY.
posted by aniola at 12:10 PM on August 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed for insensitive content, per the Content Policy. Let's avoid comparisons to the Holocaust.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 1:17 PM on August 19, 2023
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 1:17 PM on August 19, 2023
They might both be bad things to say, but it's reasonable not to want to see things equated to rape lightly.
posted by sagc at 1:29 PM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:29 PM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Maybe we can acknowledge that blaming cyclists for their own injuries or deaths at the hands of careless drivers is egregious victim blaming, without having to make comparisons to other painful and loaded examples of victim blaming and thus inviting all the deraily baggage that's sure to follow?)
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 2:12 PM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 2:12 PM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe we can acknowledge that blaming cyclists for their own injuries or deaths at the hands of careless drivers is egregious victim blaming without having to make comparisons to...
As an AFAB person who risks death and injury by being on a bicycle, and assault by walking, no?
Being blamed for existing as a cyclist on the road, and blamed for being female outside by myself are part of the same experience for me.
posted by Zumbador at 9:59 PM on August 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
As an AFAB person who risks death and injury by being on a bicycle, and assault by walking, no?
Being blamed for existing as a cyclist on the road, and blamed for being female outside by myself are part of the same experience for me.
posted by Zumbador at 9:59 PM on August 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
They might both be bad things to say, but it's reasonable not to want to see things equated to rape lightly.
I didn't make that statement lightly. Is there a way I could have phrased it differently that would have made that clear?
I'm trapped in my house without my bicycle because I live in a dangerous neighborhood, and yet cycling is also risky, mostly because drivers don't seem to realise how dangerous they are.
posted by Zumbador at 10:07 PM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I didn't make that statement lightly. Is there a way I could have phrased it differently that would have made that clear?
I'm trapped in my house without my bicycle because I live in a dangerous neighborhood, and yet cycling is also risky, mostly because drivers don't seem to realise how dangerous they are.
posted by Zumbador at 10:07 PM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think being maimed to death is one thing that you can compare to rape without being dismissive of the seriousness of rape.
posted by Dysk at 12:30 AM on August 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 12:30 AM on August 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
A few weeks back I was walking, stopped at an intersection to wait for the walk sign, looked both ways, and stepped out into the street. A car comes screaming by literally a foot away, the driver yelling, "That's what you get for stepping out, bitch!"
Fuck cars.
posted by brundlefly at 6:48 PM on August 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
Fuck cars.
posted by brundlefly at 6:48 PM on August 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
In 2007 the Dutch decided to strictly enforce the law requiring bikes to have front and rear lights. Reportedly this reduced the accident rate by 17%. Proper lighting thus reduces risk for cyclists, and contributes to a safer environment, in particular for the most vulnerable, not unlike Covid-risk can be reduced by wearing a mask and getting vaccinated.
posted by dmh at 6:19 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dmh at 6:19 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I commute across Toronto, 20km each way, to the office, and I love riding at night through the city, and I almost get hit by a car at least once a week. People make blind turns across my bike lane all the time; it literally does not occur to them to check for me.
I've been investing more and more into safety equipment like front and back lights and MIPPs light up helmet and flashjackets and I signal and I am really really trying to follow the road laws, even when it puts me in a little more danger (for fuck's sake let me cross with pedestrians at the advance signal, Toronto).
I keep commenting to my partner that I don't think it will really help me not get hit, but it will make it harder to blame me when I do get hit.
I have directly compared it to the pressure to modify my dress or behaviour so I don't get blamed for my own sexual assault. I know in both situations people will ask what I was wearing when it happened.
posted by robot-hugs at 10:49 AM on August 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've been investing more and more into safety equipment like front and back lights and MIPPs light up helmet and flashjackets and I signal and I am really really trying to follow the road laws, even when it puts me in a little more danger (for fuck's sake let me cross with pedestrians at the advance signal, Toronto).
I keep commenting to my partner that I don't think it will really help me not get hit, but it will make it harder to blame me when I do get hit.
I have directly compared it to the pressure to modify my dress or behaviour so I don't get blamed for my own sexual assault. I know in both situations people will ask what I was wearing when it happened.
posted by robot-hugs at 10:49 AM on August 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
That sounds awful. Even so, I think it's worthwhile to consider —if perhaps a cold comfort— that without those front and back lights, you might have been worse off still. Clearly the issue is bigger than just illumination. But it all starts with establishing a culture of reciprocating expectations and behaviors, of which visibility is an important aspect.
posted by dmh at 2:23 PM on August 25, 2023
posted by dmh at 2:23 PM on August 25, 2023
dmh I don't think that study means much outside of Holland, since both cycling infrastructure, cycling and driver behaviors are so different there.
I look like a cross between an illuminated banana and a Christmas tree when I'm on a bicycle, and it probably does make a difference to some drivers.
But people who think about roads as being places where you expect to see cars, and don't expect to see cyclists and pedestrians, don't look out for and don't see those no matter how they're dressed.
Cars simply move too fast to rely entirely on driver's vision, alertness, and reaction speed.
Drivers who don't consider that I might exist don't look for me before they do whatever maneuver.
posted by Zumbador at 8:25 PM on August 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
I look like a cross between an illuminated banana and a Christmas tree when I'm on a bicycle, and it probably does make a difference to some drivers.
But people who think about roads as being places where you expect to see cars, and don't expect to see cyclists and pedestrians, don't look out for and don't see those no matter how they're dressed.
Cars simply move too fast to rely entirely on driver's vision, alertness, and reaction speed.
Drivers who don't consider that I might exist don't look for me before they do whatever maneuver.
posted by Zumbador at 8:25 PM on August 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Zumbador, you're right. Here in NL if a road's speed is higher than 30 kph (~19 mph) then the bike lanes are physically separated from car traffic. That is not the case in the US, where it's not yet considered murderous to paint a bike lane on a high speed stroad. So yeah, lights make a difference when traffic is slow enough that reaction time comes into play, but it's just blaming the victim if the infrastructure itself mixes vehicles going 50 mph with vehicles that rarely get to 15 mph.
posted by antinomia at 4:09 AM on August 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by antinomia at 4:09 AM on August 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
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