Linguistic fun: Similarities between Germanic-derived languages edition
August 22, 2023 8:05 PM Subscribe
A Universal Germanic Dialogue (SLYT, make sure sound is on) Is it possible to construct a paragraph in Dutch, German, English, Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish that are all mutually comprehendible? That is my plan.
Really cool, surprised they did not throw Frisian and/or Old English into the mix!
posted by Meatbomb at 9:54 PM on August 22, 2023
posted by Meatbomb at 9:54 PM on August 22, 2023
(oops,spoke too soon)
posted by Meatbomb at 9:59 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 9:59 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Frisian is later in the video.
posted by Flunkie at 9:59 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 9:59 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
(oops, replied too late)
posted by Flunkie at 10:00 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 10:00 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
I forget where I saw these - could it have been in Bert Fegg's Nasty Book for Boys and Girls? - short instructions for How To Speak Norwegian:
1. Swallow a bicycle pedal.
2. Speak English.
I do like it when whimsy turns out to be at least vaguely fact-based.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
1. Swallow a bicycle pedal.
2. Speak English.
I do like it when whimsy turns out to be at least vaguely fact-based.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen, it also shows why all those smarty pants euros speak English so well. I swear the average person in the Netherlands speaks better English than I do.
posted by Keith Talent at 10:13 PM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Keith Talent at 10:13 PM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
I just finished reading (listening to) "Stoner" by John Edwards Williams. A fantastic book, what a trip.
Stoner, the main character in the book, became enthralled with English while attending university in Missouri, and aimed his life in that direction, getting an MS and a doctorate, ending up in short order teaching heavy courses on early English writing.
One of the things I found surprising is that in order to get along in his classes you needed German and French behind you, as they are deeply in the base of early English. In fact, if you didn't have German and French you'd get hosed once things got rocking in Stoners classes, which serious students did all they could to get in.
So I read that book and now, in this thread, it's laid out clearly why it's so important to know (at least) French and German.
This post wrapped it up for me.
Great post, OP, and perfectly timed for me.
I cannot recommend Stoner highly enough, buy it and put it on top of the books your going to read. It's a sad story told beautifully, or maybe a beautiful story told sadly.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:10 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Stoner, the main character in the book, became enthralled with English while attending university in Missouri, and aimed his life in that direction, getting an MS and a doctorate, ending up in short order teaching heavy courses on early English writing.
One of the things I found surprising is that in order to get along in his classes you needed German and French behind you, as they are deeply in the base of early English. In fact, if you didn't have German and French you'd get hosed once things got rocking in Stoners classes, which serious students did all they could to get in.
So I read that book and now, in this thread, it's laid out clearly why it's so important to know (at least) French and German.
This post wrapped it up for me.
Great post, OP, and perfectly timed for me.
I cannot recommend Stoner highly enough, buy it and put it on top of the books your going to read. It's a sad story told beautifully, or maybe a beautiful story told sadly.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:10 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think flabdablet got Norwegian mixed with Danish...
I had this sentence stuck in the back of my head from somewhere: ‘Good butter and good cheese is good English and good Frieze’, but the paragraph in the video really shows the similarities.
posted by Harald74 at 12:14 AM on August 23, 2023
I had this sentence stuck in the back of my head from somewhere: ‘Good butter and good cheese is good English and good Frieze’, but the paragraph in the video really shows the similarities.
posted by Harald74 at 12:14 AM on August 23, 2023
Come for the excellent linguistics lessons, stay for the very end of the video when it transpires that the narrator's rendering of French-vocabulary English is a dead ringer for Nandor from What We Do In The Shadows! You ignorant peasant.
posted by itsatextfile at 1:23 AM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by itsatextfile at 1:23 AM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
It is fun when you fool around with things like
Guten Abend, Damen und Herren
becomes
Good Evening, Ladies and Gentlemen
by way of
Good Evening, Dames and Sirs
by way of
Good Evening, Dams and Sires
posted by bartleby at 1:30 AM on August 23, 2023
Guten Abend, Damen und Herren
becomes
Good Evening, Ladies and Gentlemen
by way of
Good Evening, Dames and Sirs
by way of
Good Evening, Dams and Sires
posted by bartleby at 1:30 AM on August 23, 2023
For more 'I understood that' fun, here are some videos of linguists playing an "I'm going to describe something using Old English, you try to guess what it is" word game.
posted by bartleby at 1:41 AM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bartleby at 1:41 AM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I really enjoyed this! However, as someone who can speak some French and some German and is more actively learning the latter currently, I don't agree that English and German have more similar grammars than English and French, so I would be interested in how that is being defined when he says it.
For me, it's a sense that it is much easier to think an average sentence in English and just "put it into French" without a whole lot of restructuring. Or another way: I did not really struggle with French word order. German word order is different enough that sometimes I best know I am doing it wrong in German if it matches the English. And then there are all the dependent sentences and verb placement shenanigans.
posted by dame at 2:21 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
For me, it's a sense that it is much easier to think an average sentence in English and just "put it into French" without a whole lot of restructuring. Or another way: I did not really struggle with French word order. German word order is different enough that sometimes I best know I am doing it wrong in German if it matches the English. And then there are all the dependent sentences and verb placement shenanigans.
posted by dame at 2:21 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm learning dutch and it seems deceptively easy for a native English speaker. But, as dame says wrt German, the word order (and those separable verbs!) will get you.
The very end of the video, which not everyone here will get to, is fascinating. He puts together a sentence in French and English which is almost identical across the languages. Thing is, it is composed mainly of words that English took from French. The Normans pretty much French-ified English but because the lower classes didn't pick up these changes, the original English stuck around and the two merged. English is fascinating because it is a big mutt language - combining Germanic with Romance. It is the reason that English has so many synonyms. Choose your language family!
I was just in Friesland last week where we went to see the Eise Eisinga planetarium (strongly recommended!) before heading out to walk across tidal flats in the Wadden sea. Every Frisian we spoke to emphasized that Frisian was the closest language to English. So it is a thing that the Frisians themselves are taught or believe. I'm not sure Frisian is more comprehensible than Amsterdam Dutch but Frisians do speak more clearly when they speak standard Dutch - perhaps because it is a foreign tongue to them as well?
posted by vacapinta at 2:37 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
The very end of the video, which not everyone here will get to, is fascinating. He puts together a sentence in French and English which is almost identical across the languages. Thing is, it is composed mainly of words that English took from French. The Normans pretty much French-ified English but because the lower classes didn't pick up these changes, the original English stuck around and the two merged. English is fascinating because it is a big mutt language - combining Germanic with Romance. It is the reason that English has so many synonyms. Choose your language family!
I was just in Friesland last week where we went to see the Eise Eisinga planetarium (strongly recommended!) before heading out to walk across tidal flats in the Wadden sea. Every Frisian we spoke to emphasized that Frisian was the closest language to English. So it is a thing that the Frisians themselves are taught or believe. I'm not sure Frisian is more comprehensible than Amsterdam Dutch but Frisians do speak more clearly when they speak standard Dutch - perhaps because it is a foreign tongue to them as well?
posted by vacapinta at 2:37 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think flabdablet got Norwegian mixed with Danish...
wouldn't be the first
posted by flabdablet at 3:25 AM on August 23, 2023
wouldn't be the first
posted by flabdablet at 3:25 AM on August 23, 2023
While there is quite a bit of overlap between the languages, I hope to construct a sentence that is the opposite: it sounds like English or Dutch, but is compromised entirely out of false friends. For instance, many common words like "golf", "ramen", "boom", "breed", "deed", "honk", "mode", "hoop", "hen", "glad", "rode", "red", "taken", "trek", "spoken", "room", "trap", "vast", "wet" and even "word" do not mean what you think what they mean. They aren't even in the same ballpark (or "honktuin").
golf = wave,
ramen = window
boom = tree
breed = width
deed = did
hen = them
honk = base (as in honkball)
mode = fashion
hoop = to hope
rode = red
red = save
trek = to pull
taken = tasks
spoken = ghosts
room = cream
trap = stairs
vast = stationary
wet = law
word = become
posted by autopilot at 3:28 AM on August 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
spoilers for the non-nederlands speakers
golf = wave,
ramen = window
boom = tree
breed = width
deed = did
hen = them
honk = base (as in honkball)
mode = fashion
hoop = to hope
rode = red
red = save
trek = to pull
taken = tasks
spoken = ghosts
room = cream
trap = stairs
vast = stationary
wet = law
word = become
posted by autopilot at 3:28 AM on August 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
spoilers for the non-nederlands speakers
Hehehe, this is a case where knowing German helps you pick out the meaning of some of the false friends. German, of course, contains the greatest false friend of all: Gift.
posted by dame at 3:38 AM on August 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
Hehehe, this is a case where knowing German helps you pick out the meaning of some of the false friends. German, of course, contains the greatest false friend of all: Gift.
posted by dame at 3:38 AM on August 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
I think flabdablet got Norwegian mixed with Danish...
And of course, even the Danes don't understand Danish
(I'm sure I picked this up on the blue previously, but so good.)
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 3:38 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
And of course, even the Danes don't understand Danish
(I'm sure I picked this up on the blue previously, but so good.)
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 3:38 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
All good fun. Further to autopilot, in Nederlands dapper means brave/valiant, while in English it is quick/little and active/spruce. Presumably, in Proto-Germanic *dapraz was originally an adjective applied to warriors. Over the years, Dutch knights, possibly valuing courage more than other cultures, retained the nobler part of the original meaning, while English knights concentrated on merely looking the part: doublets, well-turned calf etc..
posted by BobTheScientist at 4:10 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 4:10 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
German, of course, contains the greatest false friend of all: Gift.
And it has that same meaning in Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish, but in those languages it also means "married." Take of that what you will.
posted by gwint at 4:26 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
And it has that same meaning in Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish, but in those languages it also means "married." Take of that what you will.
posted by gwint at 4:26 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's all fun and games until someone from die Ausländerbehörde notifies you that your Aufenhaltstitel is being denied because you've failed to contact Rentensversicherungamt about your foreign Rente payments... :)
But seriously, what a great post and one that I can share with my German- and French-speaking students of English!
posted by aldus_manutius at 4:34 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
But seriously, what a great post and one that I can share with my German- and French-speaking students of English!
posted by aldus_manutius at 4:34 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
If the deep links of English to other Germanic languages tickles your fancy, the History of the English Language podcast is deeply satisfying. Hosted by lawyer-turned-linguistic-historian Kevin Stroud, if I recall correctly it takes around forty episodes just to reach the shores of England, spending the first long stretch setting the scene as it were with Proto-Indo-European. He subsequently goes into excruciating—but in a good way—detail into its Germanic roots, and French and Latin influences.
I spent many, many commutes during the first half of the pandemic listening to him, loads of fun.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 5:13 AM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
I spent many, many commutes during the first half of the pandemic listening to him, loads of fun.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 5:13 AM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
German, of course, contains the greatest false friend of all: Gift.
I’d say Mist gives it some competition.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:50 AM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
I’d say Mist gives it some competition.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:50 AM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
the guards will exterminate your family
Incredibly enjoyable!
posted by Baethan at 5:51 AM on August 23, 2023
Incredibly enjoyable!
posted by Baethan at 5:51 AM on August 23, 2023
German, of course, contains the greatest false friend of all: Gift.
And in Dutch, it has both meanings...
posted by trotz dem alten drachen at 6:37 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
And in Dutch, it has both meanings...
posted by trotz dem alten drachen at 6:37 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Interlingua is a constructed Latin-based language that pares away the quirks from existing Romance languages so that it's mutually intelligible to all of them. It's easy to understand if you know any of them reasonably well.
This exercise makes me wonder whether it would be possible to devise a Germanic-based lingua.
posted by zadcat at 6:41 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
This exercise makes me wonder whether it would be possible to devise a Germanic-based lingua.
posted by zadcat at 6:41 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I enjoyed this!
He repeats the monologue enough that I was beginning to wonder about the motivations of this lady in the mountains. I don't think I'd go in there. It feels like how the Midsommar people might invite guests in the autumn.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:45 AM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
He repeats the monologue enough that I was beginning to wonder about the motivations of this lady in the mountains. I don't think I'd go in there. It feels like how the Midsommar people might invite guests in the autumn.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:45 AM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I will never pass up a chance on a thread like this to link Mark Twain's The Awful German Language, which contains this wonderful quote: "I heard a Californian student in Heidelberg say, in one of his calmest moods, that he would rather decline two drinks than one German adjective."
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 6:52 AM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 6:52 AM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Makes me wonder how far back you can go. There are certainly Proto-Indo-European words that still sit in many languages, like familial relations (daughter) and animals (bee).
posted by leotrotsky at 7:10 AM on August 23, 2023
posted by leotrotsky at 7:10 AM on August 23, 2023
One adventure/time-travel story trope that academics laugh at is when the archaeologist or linguist in the party busts out Proto-Indo-European (Prometheus) or Middle Egyptian (Stargate) as if it were Spanish, instead of something that even the best of us have to eke out haltingly from 80-year-old tomes in the library.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:13 AM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 7:13 AM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
The last dialog in French made me laugh real hard. Ignorant peasant indeed.
posted by fiercekitten at 8:14 AM on August 23, 2023
posted by fiercekitten at 8:14 AM on August 23, 2023
A few months ago I posted a comment about Mots D'Heures: Gousses, Rames, a "French" book that sounds like Mother Goose rhymes when read out loud. And I recently learned about Mörder Guss reims, the "German" equivalent that features "explanations" of the poems:
Hick Uri1, dick Uri, doch
Diem' aus rann ab dick Loch;2
Dick Lochs trug van Diem' aus Rand hauen
Hick Uri, dick Uri, doch.3
1. A popular Swiss name, commemorating one of the first three peasant communities (Uri, Schwyz and Unterwalden) which broke away from the Hapsburg Empire and with the help of William Tell, established the so-called "Eternal Union" in 1291.posted by autopilot at 8:40 AM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
2. Fat Uri is told that there is a notch, groove or indentation in the haystack, which is leaking through a large hole.
3. Uri's answer to the problem is to knock the large hole out of the corner of the haystack and to carry it away. Although holes are well-known features of certain Swiss cheeses, we must assume that in this case the poet is poking fun at the simple-minded peasant.
One adventure/time-travel story trope that academics laugh at is when the archaeologist or linguist in the party busts out Proto-Indo-European (Prometheus) or Middle Egyptian (Stargate) as if it were Spanish, instead of something that even the best of us have to eke out haltingly from 80-year-old tomes in the library.
Indeed. With PIE, especially, it’s like finding a half-dozen orphan jigsaw puzzle pieces: three showing blue sky, one showing part of what might be part of a lamppost and two of brickwork and declaring: “Aha! It’s a picture of Big Ben!”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:46 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Indeed. With PIE, especially, it’s like finding a half-dozen orphan jigsaw puzzle pieces: three showing blue sky, one showing part of what might be part of a lamppost and two of brickwork and declaring: “Aha! It’s a picture of Big Ben!”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:46 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Swedish too, 'gift' can refer to either poison or marriage. However, it's not possible (at least from what a native Swedish-speaker told me 30 years ago when I learned this) to construct a sentence where the meaning is ambiguous between the two.
posted by Hatashran at 9:04 AM on August 23, 2023
posted by Hatashran at 9:04 AM on August 23, 2023
He repeats the monologue enough that I was beginning to wonder about the motivations of this lady in the mountains. I don't think I'd go in there.
I know, right? "This is my plan" makes it so weird.
posted by aws17576 at 12:54 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know, right? "This is my plan" makes it so weird.
posted by aws17576 at 12:54 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
OK, dancestoblue; checked out of the library.
posted by acrasis at 1:07 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by acrasis at 1:07 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Welcome! We have water, beer, the flesh of foreigners who understand only a very little of what I say, and milk straight from the cow!He repeats the monologue enough that I was beginning to wonder about the motivations of this lady in the mountains. I don't think I'd go in there.I know, right? "This is my plan" makes it so weird.
posted by Flunkie at 1:18 PM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
OK, dancestoblue; checked out of the library.
posted by acrasis at 3:07 PM on August 23
I truly hope that it brings you as much wonder and joy as it did me; it is told so beautifully, it is written so beautifully.
It's always fun to share something that I enjoy(ed); to share something that is beautiful is a gift both to you and to myself.
posted by dancestoblue at 2:28 PM on August 23, 2023
posted by acrasis at 3:07 PM on August 23
I truly hope that it brings you as much wonder and joy as it did me; it is told so beautifully, it is written so beautifully.
It's always fun to share something that I enjoy(ed); to share something that is beautiful is a gift both to you and to myself.
posted by dancestoblue at 2:28 PM on August 23, 2023
I checked out King Ming Lam a little - I wonder what his original language is? I can't tell from his accent, which is kind of Germanic but perhaps to my prejudiced ear has notes of a Chinese language to it as well. And it seems he's a maths PhD student, not a linguist? To me this makes the video doubly impressive. I would be way too scared to try this on in a non-English language and outside my discipline.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:01 PM on August 23, 2023
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:01 PM on August 23, 2023
Hong Kong -> U.K. according to his social media.
posted by atoxyl at 7:05 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 7:05 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
People always say gift is the best false friend, but I always felt it was the Dutch phrase 'U kunt'.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 9:41 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 9:41 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Re Frisian and English being mutually intelligible, vacapinta, I always understood it was Frisian and particular dialects of English, to wit, Northumbrian (Pitmatic?). I've been looking for a story I think I read on the BBC website about a fishing boat from Northumberland being stranded in Frisia and the fishermen from each country discovering they could understand each other, but I can't find it now. Couple of references to it though: Second post here; and this youtube thing with Eddie Izzard making a real pigs ear of a generic Northerly accent to say Hoo noo Broon Coo (or something.)
Actually he says he's speaking Old English
Oh here's another tangential link from reddit, people in the comments talking about the Northumberland link
posted by glasseyes at 5:05 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Actually he says he's speaking Old English
Oh here's another tangential link from reddit, people in the comments talking about the Northumberland link
posted by glasseyes at 5:05 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I will never pass up a chance on a thread like this to link Mark Twain's The Awful German Language
In German, a young lady has no sex, while a turnip has. Think what overwrought reverence that shows for the turnip, and what callous disrespect for the girl. See how it looks in print--I translate this from a conversation in one of the best of the German Sunday-school books:Und:
"Gretchen. Wilhelm, where is the turnip?
"Wilhelm. She has gone to the kitchen.
"Gretchen. Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?
Wilhelm. It has gone to the opera."
A German speaks of an Englishman as the ENGLÄNDER; to change the sex, he adds INN, and that stands for Englishwoman-- ENGLÄNDERINN. That seems descriptive enough, but still it is not exact enough for a German; so he precedes the word with that article which indicates that the creature to follow is feminine, and writes it down thus: "die Engländerinn,"--which means "the she-Englishwoman." I consider that that person is over-described.posted by kirkaracha at 9:10 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Maybe the real Gift was the false friends we poisoned along the way.
posted by Syllepsis at 6:01 PM on August 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Syllepsis at 6:01 PM on August 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
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posted by pompomtom at 9:18 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]