Pizza Styles: Statistics on Every State in the US!
September 1, 2023 3:12 PM Subscribe
Gift link from today's Washington Post: The most popular pizza style in every state, mapped -- the 'Pineapple Belt' and America's hidden culinary divide. Contrast with The Spruce Eats' Definitive Guide to Pizza Styles in the United States.
The first WaPo bar graph lists fifteen styles, the top eight being New York, Neapolitan-ish, Chicago, Detroit, Sicilian, Greek, Thin, and Brooklyn. The Spruce lists a dozen styles, including also the DC Jumbo Slice (which IME is more characteristic of New Jersey). I must be some kind of Philistine since I don't perceive much difference between New York, Neapolitan, Thin, and the DC Jumbo; these are all the good stuff; the opposite of what I call American pizza, like they sell at Pizza Hut, or Costco -- inch-thick bready crust, too much cheese and not enough tomato -- this can be found everywhere outside the Northeast, seemingly the default in some places. Is this what the WaPo is listing as Tavern? Doesn't look like they ever get around to defining that one.
The first WaPo bar graph lists fifteen styles, the top eight being New York, Neapolitan-ish, Chicago, Detroit, Sicilian, Greek, Thin, and Brooklyn. The Spruce lists a dozen styles, including also the DC Jumbo Slice (which IME is more characteristic of New Jersey). I must be some kind of Philistine since I don't perceive much difference between New York, Neapolitan, Thin, and the DC Jumbo; these are all the good stuff; the opposite of what I call American pizza, like they sell at Pizza Hut, or Costco -- inch-thick bready crust, too much cheese and not enough tomato -- this can be found everywhere outside the Northeast, seemingly the default in some places. Is this what the WaPo is listing as Tavern? Doesn't look like they ever get around to defining that one.
My area is a 21 pizza workers per 1000, which I never would have guessed because pizza isn't that popular here, doesn't count the big chains, and the number of people with Italian ancestry is low. Weird. Fun data.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:27 PM on September 1, 2023
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:27 PM on September 1, 2023
American pizza is mostly just New York-style pizza.
This is not some kind of error.
Italian American places where I'm at focus on creole seafood dishes in cream sauce, and not pizza, I dunno. Our squid on the Gulf Coast isn't that great for a polpo e patate, either, it s too small or it s too chewy, my opinion.
posted by eustatic at 3:35 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is not some kind of error.
Italian American places where I'm at focus on creole seafood dishes in cream sauce, and not pizza, I dunno. Our squid on the Gulf Coast isn't that great for a polpo e patate, either, it s too small or it s too chewy, my opinion.
posted by eustatic at 3:35 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is malarkey. There is almost no Chicago-style outside Chicago itself. I can imagine there’s enough in Chicago to swing the whole state of Illinois, but there is no way that Chicago pizza is more popular than anything else in Iowa. I’ll buy that Neopolitsn-ish dominates in Wisconsin, but there’s a lot of Detroit-style(-ish) here, too, though they never call it that.
I’d put my money on Midwestern Yelp-commenters just having no idea what the hell kind of pizza they’re eating.
posted by BrashTech at 3:37 PM on September 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
I’d put my money on Midwestern Yelp-commenters just having no idea what the hell kind of pizza they’re eating.
posted by BrashTech at 3:37 PM on September 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
too much cheese
What does this mean? Can someone explain to me what this means?
posted by phunniemee at 3:38 PM on September 1, 2023 [34 favorites]
What does this mean? Can someone explain to me what this means?
posted by phunniemee at 3:38 PM on September 1, 2023 [34 favorites]
"Tavern" is a pretty common style around where I live, but most people don't use the word (or any word, it's just "pizza" or "thin crust"), so the researchers' approach of looking for keywords in Yelp reviews isn't going to turn it up.
It's a flat thin-crust pizza with equally matched amounts of tomato and cheese, with toppings scattered generously on top, CUT INTO SQUARE PIECES, and set out at your party or bar get-together for people to grab and munch. It tastes, feels, looks, and chews pretty different from New York Style slices.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 3:39 PM on September 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's a flat thin-crust pizza with equally matched amounts of tomato and cheese, with toppings scattered generously on top, CUT INTO SQUARE PIECES, and set out at your party or bar get-together for people to grab and munch. It tastes, feels, looks, and chews pretty different from New York Style slices.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 3:39 PM on September 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
I grew up in SE Michigan, went to school in Chicago and lived in NYC and Providence. I've been spoiled for good pizza for most of my life.
Now I'm living on the west coast and I'm feeling lucky that there's a place that does a passable NYC style pizza in town, because otherwise... Ooof.
posted by ursus_comiter at 3:47 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Now I'm living on the west coast and I'm feeling lucky that there's a place that does a passable NYC style pizza in town, because otherwise... Ooof.
posted by ursus_comiter at 3:47 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, "Chicago" pizza to most people means deep-dish or even stuffed, but I've lived in Chicago my entire life and deep dish is not really super common. There's specific places that make it, but most Chicago pizza is thin crust, but cut in squares. People recently started calling it "tavern" style, but I have never seen this kind of pizza in any sort of "tavern" so I find the name stupid and just a weird Internet quirk because people don't know what else to call it. Never heard it called "tavern" style until maybe 10-15 years ago when suddenly the internet needed "content."
It's just pizza. I like Chicago pizza, but NYC pizza is better. But NYC's is better because you can just go and buy a slice anywhere in NYC. In Chicago, you (mostly) have to buy a whole pizza. There's more slice-places here recently though so it's progress.
There's plenty of crummy NYC pizza, BTW.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:50 PM on September 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's just pizza. I like Chicago pizza, but NYC pizza is better. But NYC's is better because you can just go and buy a slice anywhere in NYC. In Chicago, you (mostly) have to buy a whole pizza. There's more slice-places here recently though so it's progress.
There's plenty of crummy NYC pizza, BTW.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:50 PM on September 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've been living in St. Louis for almost 30 years and still don't understand St. Louis style pizza. Thin crust can be good, but more often that not it isn't. And provel (which does not legally qualify as cheese, but "pasteurized process cheese") is just heinous.
posted by Foosnark at 3:51 PM on September 1, 2023
posted by Foosnark at 3:51 PM on September 1, 2023
The fuck are they talking about calling what they do in the Midwest New York style?
posted by Ferreous at 4:00 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 4:00 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
God, this made me soooo hungry
posted by potrzebie at 4:01 PM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 4:01 PM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Has anyone here had Colorado style? If so, how was it?
posted by Selena777 at 4:08 PM on September 1, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 4:08 PM on September 1, 2023
The fuck are they talking about calling what they do in the Midwest New York style?
The problem is many places far from New York label their product "New York" pizza. I remember picking up one of those to go out here, lifting the lid then closing it with a grimace and asking the pizza guy,
"Have you ever been to New York?"
"No."
posted by Rash at 4:08 PM on September 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
The problem is many places far from New York label their product "New York" pizza. I remember picking up one of those to go out here, lifting the lid then closing it with a grimace and asking the pizza guy,
"Have you ever been to New York?"
"No."
posted by Rash at 4:08 PM on September 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
So the FPP mentions it but why aren't these articles talking about the most common sort of pizza in the us? The style that Domino's, Pizza Hut, Papa John's, CPK, etc all make (as do a lot of non-chain places too). It's breadier than New York pizza, but still "thin crust", and probably heavier on cheese, sauce, and toppings.
posted by aubilenon at 4:08 PM on September 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 4:08 PM on September 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
People recently started calling it "tavern" style, but I have never seen this kind of pizza in any sort of "tavern" so I find the name stupid and just a weird Internet quirk because people don't know what else to call it.
anecdata, the only tavern I've been in that served pizza (Joe's Fox Hut in Fond du Lac, WI) did in fact serve thin crust cut into squares, that's also the type of pizza we got from Infusino's in Racine all the time when I was a kid
probably it migrated up from Chicago but no one ever called it "Chicago-style pizza," it was simply "thin-crust pizza" and its origins were irrelevant to us
one of the Infusino kids went to junior high school with me & my dad was always insisting that I should marry him to get free pizza, my dad would have enjoyed being Machiavelli I think
posted by taquito sunrise at 4:10 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
anecdata, the only tavern I've been in that served pizza (Joe's Fox Hut in Fond du Lac, WI) did in fact serve thin crust cut into squares, that's also the type of pizza we got from Infusino's in Racine all the time when I was a kid
probably it migrated up from Chicago but no one ever called it "Chicago-style pizza," it was simply "thin-crust pizza" and its origins were irrelevant to us
one of the Infusino kids went to junior high school with me & my dad was always insisting that I should marry him to get free pizza, my dad would have enjoyed being Machiavelli I think
posted by taquito sunrise at 4:10 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
why aren't these articles talking about the most common sort of pizza in the us? The style that Domino's, Pizza Hut, Papa John's,
... and Costco? I'm guessing the authors of such articles hope you know better than to go to those places, when you want real pizza, just as they do.
posted by Rash at 4:14 PM on September 1, 2023
... and Costco? I'm guessing the authors of such articles hope you know better than to go to those places, when you want real pizza, just as they do.
posted by Rash at 4:14 PM on September 1, 2023
So the FPP mentions it but why aren't these articles talking about the most common sort of pizza in the us? The style that Domino's, Pizza Hut, Papa John's, CPK, etc all makeThey're just being kind:
At the other end of the scale, our maps emphatically paint the American South, especially the Deep South, as a pizza desert — though we’ll point out again that we’re ignoring Pizza Hut, Domino’s and other huge, national chains.Imagine how cruel it would have been to the Deep South if they had included such places, and thus needed to come up with a phrase even harsher than "pizza desert".
posted by Flunkie at 4:29 PM on September 1, 2023
Whatever that is, my boyfriend has a strong preference for it over "good pizza," price aside.
posted by Selena777 at 4:29 PM on September 1, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 4:29 PM on September 1, 2023
If there is talk of “Tavern style” and Heggie’s is not brought up that you’ve never eaten pizza is a Midwestern bar.
posted by misterpatrick at 4:36 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by misterpatrick at 4:36 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
The most interesting thing to me here is the pizza belt - having grown up in it, and spent most of my adult life in it, it was a shock to move to a fairly major city in the south and to find there was no decent pizza option that was a short drive away - I was so accustomed to having at least one decent nearby take out option.
posted by coffeecat at 4:47 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by coffeecat at 4:47 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Interesting that the map of Italian ancestry still reflects Italian immigrants coming to build the Erie Canal and the industries that sprung up around it.
posted by plastic_animals at 5:30 PM on September 1, 2023
posted by plastic_animals at 5:30 PM on September 1, 2023
I can imagine there’s enough in Chicago to swing the whole state of Illinois, but there is no way that Chicago pizza is more popular than anything else in Iowa.
Hard agree. The Quad City style mentioned in the “other styles” article takes the cake in the eastern-most nose of Iowa, but the rest of the state is Casey’s country (Pagliai’s in Iowa City, Fongs and Felix & Oscars in Des Moines, and maybe Happy Joes in random places notwithstanding). I guess MAGA pizza lovers might be found at a Pizza Ranch. I wouldn’t even know where to get Chicago style in most of the state.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 5:31 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hard agree. The Quad City style mentioned in the “other styles” article takes the cake in the eastern-most nose of Iowa, but the rest of the state is Casey’s country (Pagliai’s in Iowa City, Fongs and Felix & Oscars in Des Moines, and maybe Happy Joes in random places notwithstanding). I guess MAGA pizza lovers might be found at a Pizza Ranch. I wouldn’t even know where to get Chicago style in most of the state.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 5:31 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
The style that Domino's, Pizza Hut, Papa John's, CPK, etc all make (as do a lot of non-chain places too). It's breadier than New York pizza, but still "thin crust", and probably heavier on cheese, sauce, and toppings.
Sugar Pizza? I dunno, I feel like chain pizza is always sweeter, and probably made of corn. Do they have Domino's outside of the North American Corn empire?
posted by eustatic at 5:45 PM on September 1, 2023
Sugar Pizza? I dunno, I feel like chain pizza is always sweeter, and probably made of corn. Do they have Domino's outside of the North American Corn empire?
posted by eustatic at 5:45 PM on September 1, 2023
As a recent migrant to New Haven, I'm loving seeing New Haven style isolated in Connecticut on those WP maps. I had no idea before moving there that it was a thing but I've come to love it (especially the bizarre white clam). It may be the most interesting thing about the very dull state of Connecticut (as someone MA born who lived in NY long enough that I feel more like a NYer, I'm always going to cut on CT).
posted by kokaku at 5:50 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kokaku at 5:50 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
> maybe Happy Joes in random places notwithstanding
People in Iowa sneer at Happy Joes but I like their pizza with Canadian bacon and sauerkraut a lot.
posted by smelendez at 5:51 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
People in Iowa sneer at Happy Joes but I like their pizza with Canadian bacon and sauerkraut a lot.
posted by smelendez at 5:51 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I suppose the article is trying to track potential cultural emergence, and so doesn't want to include mass market, corporate pizza because taste for it is not 'cultural' so much as spread by marketing. But it does seem like you would mention.the style, briefly, as a common cultural reference point.
posted by eustatic at 5:52 PM on September 1, 2023
posted by eustatic at 5:52 PM on September 1, 2023
Has anyone here had Colorado style? If so, how was it?
My family likes it, it's good, but I feel the need to point out that "Colorado Style" is pizza made by one chain with 5 locations. Its inclusion in these lists is mostly just a way that food writers to say "I don't know anything about Colorado" without saying "I don't know anything about Colorado".
That said, they do actually have a legitimately good gluten free crust option, and offer Vegan cheese, so it's a good place for folks who want pizza but can't do wheat or dairy. I’m not complaining about Beau Jo's, just complaining about poor research.
posted by Gygesringtone at 5:53 PM on September 1, 2023
My family likes it, it's good, but I feel the need to point out that "Colorado Style" is pizza made by one chain with 5 locations. Its inclusion in these lists is mostly just a way that food writers to say "I don't know anything about Colorado" without saying "I don't know anything about Colorado".
That said, they do actually have a legitimately good gluten free crust option, and offer Vegan cheese, so it's a good place for folks who want pizza but can't do wheat or dairy. I’m not complaining about Beau Jo's, just complaining about poor research.
posted by Gygesringtone at 5:53 PM on September 1, 2023
I’m sure most cities around the US have one or two places that claim to make Chicago-style pies; only a few pull it off. Delfino’s here in Seattle is one (after looking into quite a few imposters).
Also, Imo’s St Louis style pizza is terrific. And so is slicing bagels with a bread slicer (when sharing). Fight me.
posted by neuracnu at 5:55 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, Imo’s St Louis style pizza is terrific. And so is slicing bagels with a bread slicer (when sharing). Fight me.
posted by neuracnu at 5:55 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a recent migrant to New Haven, I'm loving seeing New Haven style isolated in Connecticut on those WP maps. I had no idea before moving there that it was a thing
I had no idea either until Dimo's opened up here
posted by Dr. Twist at 6:00 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I had no idea either until Dimo's opened up here
posted by Dr. Twist at 6:00 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Another Midwesterner coming in to say the WaPo methodology ignores the fact that the default pizzas are just called pizza. Yes, I know the term tavern pizza, but no one says it.
When you get into the breakdown for each state, it gets worse. Rating Wrectangle the best Chicago style pizza is like saying Jon Bon Jovi is your favorite member of the Beatles.
posted by advicepig at 6:01 PM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
When you get into the breakdown for each state, it gets worse. Rating Wrectangle the best Chicago style pizza is like saying Jon Bon Jovi is your favorite member of the Beatles.
posted by advicepig at 6:01 PM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Just to speak up for Chicago-style in Iowa, the popularity of Zoey's in Marion (small town adjacent to Cedar Rapids) is probably skewing the numbers. Not everybody that loves Zoey's eats their Chicago-style, but they do a great one!
posted by epj at 6:16 PM on September 1, 2023
posted by epj at 6:16 PM on September 1, 2023
"Tavern" is a pretty common style around where I live, but most people don't use the word (or any word, it's just "pizza" or "thin crust"), so the researchers' approach of looking for keywords in Yelp reviews isn't going to turn it up.
"Tavern" isn't even really a word here, but plenty of bars and breweries serve pizza. It's almost universally thin-crust, with a smaller diameter (like between a small and medium); toppings vary from traditional to very west coast.
I've never, ever even seen pizza cut in squares other than in the elementary school lunch room when I was a kid, and don't understand why you would cut it that way. but it always shows up in these articles. "New York" seems like the universal descriptor used everywhere that just means "not Chicago deep dish." I've had all kinds and very little seems related to actual New York style. Thick crust, thin crust, it all gets called "New York."
posted by Dip Flash at 6:35 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Tavern" isn't even really a word here, but plenty of bars and breweries serve pizza. It's almost universally thin-crust, with a smaller diameter (like between a small and medium); toppings vary from traditional to very west coast.
I've never, ever even seen pizza cut in squares other than in the elementary school lunch room when I was a kid, and don't understand why you would cut it that way. but it always shows up in these articles. "New York" seems like the universal descriptor used everywhere that just means "not Chicago deep dish." I've had all kinds and very little seems related to actual New York style. Thick crust, thin crust, it all gets called "New York."
posted by Dip Flash at 6:35 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is the Chicago-style I grew up with.
We would always fight over the tiny corner triangles. And I never cared for the middle pieces at all.
posted by art.bikes at 6:39 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
We would always fight over the tiny corner triangles. And I never cared for the middle pieces at all.
posted by art.bikes at 6:39 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
And no mention of ranch-based pizzerias? You know, Pizza Ranch!
posted by misterpatrick at 7:05 PM on September 1, 2023
posted by misterpatrick at 7:05 PM on September 1, 2023
I always like to point out that Ohio Valley Style is what I grew up with. A vaguely foccaccia-esque dough with sauce is cooked, cut into squares and then it receives the toppings and cheese after the bake. The nice hot/cold contrast is nice.
posted by mmascolino at 7:21 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mmascolino at 7:21 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
What I learned from this is that a lot of people still need to learn the glory of New Haven-style pies.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:28 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 7:28 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I kinda miss Pizza Patrón out in Texas. They do a very Tex-Mex take on the "pizza hut/Domino's" style cheap-ass pizza with more localized flavoring and occasionally playing with the sauces. Choriqueso pizza and such. Cheap, good, and very very Texan riffs in such a way that it felt like they were having fun.
My very favorite pizza in the world is of course the Costco cheese slice. Yes, I'm a Philistine, but I'm a very happy one.
posted by sciatrix at 7:38 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
My very favorite pizza in the world is of course the Costco cheese slice. Yes, I'm a Philistine, but I'm a very happy one.
posted by sciatrix at 7:38 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I expected to find Rhode Island noted as a weird outlier thanks to pizza strips, but it doesn't seem like their data even registered the existence of pizza strips, so, I'm not sure I can trust their methodology.
posted by mstokes650 at 7:39 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mstokes650 at 7:39 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I always like to point out that Ohio Valley Style is what I grew up with. A vaguely foccaccia-esque dough with sauce is cooked, cut into squares and then it receives the toppings and cheese after the bake. The nice hot/cold contrast is nice.
I'm going to take your word that it is good, but this really sounds like something where the cook just didn't read the recipe correctly.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:55 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm going to take your word that it is good, but this really sounds like something where the cook just didn't read the recipe correctly.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:55 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
advicepig: " Jon Bon Jovi is your favorite member of the Beatles."
Whereas everybody knows the Beatles would have never become famous without Richie Sambora.
posted by signal at 7:55 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Whereas everybody knows the Beatles would have never become famous without Richie Sambora.
posted by signal at 7:55 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
The problem with all of this posturing is that no one understands that Trenton style tomato pie is actually the best sort of pizza. I will not be entertaining questions at this time.
posted by mollweide at 8:06 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mollweide at 8:06 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I grew up with what is now called "tavern style" Ohio pizza. It's fine for what it is, kind of like the grade school cafeteria pizza. But I wouldn't call it "pizza" exactly. It's also ridiculous the tiny bite size squares they cut it into.
What's truly an abomination is what they do in St Louis. I know it's judgmental, but I don't understand how anybody could like that stuff. It's plasticy and crackery but somehow wet? I'm not sure I would even be willing to describe it as "food."
New York style and Brooklyn style are not different, no matter who is describing what in Yelp. What is different is a regular slice versus a Sicilian slice (versus a Grandma slice in some places). I would usually have one of each to see how well they did it so i would know which to order next time. I'm usually not bold enough to risk a Sicilian slice outside of the tri-state area, but I had a good one in Raleigh last year.
Syracuse has a distinctive style of pizza (or did thirty years ago) that's something akin to Detroit pizza, maybe?
Even bad local pizza is interesting, except for what they do in St Louis, which is s Lovecraftian horror.
posted by rikschell at 8:08 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
What's truly an abomination is what they do in St Louis. I know it's judgmental, but I don't understand how anybody could like that stuff. It's plasticy and crackery but somehow wet? I'm not sure I would even be willing to describe it as "food."
New York style and Brooklyn style are not different, no matter who is describing what in Yelp. What is different is a regular slice versus a Sicilian slice (versus a Grandma slice in some places). I would usually have one of each to see how well they did it so i would know which to order next time. I'm usually not bold enough to risk a Sicilian slice outside of the tri-state area, but I had a good one in Raleigh last year.
Syracuse has a distinctive style of pizza (or did thirty years ago) that's something akin to Detroit pizza, maybe?
Even bad local pizza is interesting, except for what they do in St Louis, which is s Lovecraftian horror.
posted by rikschell at 8:08 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
The last bar graph in the article claims
kind of like the grade school cafeteria pizza
You speak of abomination; clearly you never had my grade school's pizza. It was the early 1960s and we did have a couple Italian restaurants in town with pizza on the menu, but it was still a novelty in my suburb, one too new for the cafeteria ladies in their starched white uniforms. They tried, however, and what they served were squares of a crust rumored to be made from Bisquik, topped with ground beef and American cheese. Alright, I suppose, if you like cheeseburgers. I would have none of it since I prefer hamburgers and I knew what the real thing was, as my mother made it occasionally, from the Chef Boyardee kit.
posted by Rash at 8:25 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
The non-pizzeria places that get the highest ratings on Yelp tend to be food trucks, vegetarian restaurants, cafes and pasta shops.Food trucks!? How do they get the oven in there? And what's a pasta shop?
kind of like the grade school cafeteria pizza
You speak of abomination; clearly you never had my grade school's pizza. It was the early 1960s and we did have a couple Italian restaurants in town with pizza on the menu, but it was still a novelty in my suburb, one too new for the cafeteria ladies in their starched white uniforms. They tried, however, and what they served were squares of a crust rumored to be made from Bisquik, topped with ground beef and American cheese. Alright, I suppose, if you like cheeseburgers. I would have none of it since I prefer hamburgers and I knew what the real thing was, as my mother made it occasionally, from the Chef Boyardee kit.
posted by Rash at 8:25 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
OK, so I have had pizza every day for like, the last four days. Not on purpose per se, but, things happen. Have leftovers, so likely a few more meals as well. Ms. Windo prefers either a New York style or a Sicilian style. I am currently hankering for a Chicago style, (so thanks for the Delfino's reference neuracnu, will check it out). First had it at Green Mill in Minneapolis in the early 80's a revelation. There was a place on Broadway back in the day that was pretty good. Paxti's in Ballard did not impress however.
I miss "minnesota style pizza". Thin crust. Cut into squares, with some spice that isn't in most pizzas. Angelo's in Northfield, and then, there was a place here in Seattle, Zayda Buddy's that was the same. Until the owner closed all his restaurants and left town for some reason. So good. Old Godfather's Pizza had the same spice. Miss that flavor.
And then the pizza you could get in Rome? Just like the cafeteria pizza at school growing up.
But how can you go wrong with bread, cheese, sauce and your topping of choice?
Answer: you cannot.
posted by Windopaene at 8:39 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I miss "minnesota style pizza". Thin crust. Cut into squares, with some spice that isn't in most pizzas. Angelo's in Northfield, and then, there was a place here in Seattle, Zayda Buddy's that was the same. Until the owner closed all his restaurants and left town for some reason. So good. Old Godfather's Pizza had the same spice. Miss that flavor.
And then the pizza you could get in Rome? Just like the cafeteria pizza at school growing up.
But how can you go wrong with bread, cheese, sauce and your topping of choice?
Answer: you cannot.
posted by Windopaene at 8:39 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Forget squares, I'm telling you the next big thing is going to be cutting the pizza into rhombi!
posted by aubilenon at 8:55 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 8:55 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anecdotally, the tavern (or pub) style and naming comes from an old (since repealed) Chicago law that forbid bars from selling food. As anyone who’s worked in any kind of bar knows, if there’s no food menu, people don’t tend to linger. If there is food, people will stay much longer, even if they don’t order anything. The brain is dumb.
Anyway, the pub style comes from bars making the simplest, cheapest food possible, and serving it up on the counter for anyone to have a piece as long as they were drinking. As things do, it caught on. Living in Chicago, deep dish was only if there were visitors from out of town, or Chicagoans (let’s be honest, this was the suburbs) trying to show how Chicagoey they were. Other than that, tavern/pub style.
I love Detroit style pizza. I made deep dish for years in a Chicago style bar in Tokyo. Give me tavern style with mushrooms, sausage, and bacon, and I’ll die happy. Obviously, early but definitely happy.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:44 PM on September 1, 2023
Anyway, the pub style comes from bars making the simplest, cheapest food possible, and serving it up on the counter for anyone to have a piece as long as they were drinking. As things do, it caught on. Living in Chicago, deep dish was only if there were visitors from out of town, or Chicagoans (let’s be honest, this was the suburbs) trying to show how Chicagoey they were. Other than that, tavern/pub style.
I love Detroit style pizza. I made deep dish for years in a Chicago style bar in Tokyo. Give me tavern style with mushrooms, sausage, and bacon, and I’ll die happy. Obviously, early but definitely happy.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:44 PM on September 1, 2023
What I have discovered recently is that Argentine restaurants will have a style of "pizza" that strikes my Levantine eyes as man'oushe with a wonderous array of toppings.
That would have to be my favourite style.
posted by seraphine at 9:53 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
That would have to be my favourite style.
posted by seraphine at 9:53 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I miss "minnesota style pizza". Thin crust. Cut into squares, with some spice that isn't in most pizzas. Angelo's in Northfield, and then, there was a place here in Seattle, Zayda Buddy's that was the same. Until the owner closed all his restaurants and left town for some reason. So good. Old Godfather's Pizza had the same spice. Miss that flavor.
I worked at Pontillo's on Riverside Avenue in Minneapolis way back in the day (before they turned into Davanni's) as the sole high school student amid a crew of college students. What an amazing experience -- especially after-close cleanup when those older colleagues controlled the juke box. I learned how to make what we called New York-style pizza, and it was good, and I was proud to throw the circle of dough up in the air and dress it and manage it in the oven and cut it up and serve it.
On my breaks, there would always be an unclaimed pizza or two in the break room, and breaks were pretty delicious.
But that wasn't New York pizza. I graduated high school and moved to New York and learned about real pizza and it blew my mind.
Maybe 42 states prefer "New York" pizza, but 41 are fantasizing and only one is actually enjoying it.
posted by Scarf Joint at 11:31 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I worked at Pontillo's on Riverside Avenue in Minneapolis way back in the day (before they turned into Davanni's) as the sole high school student amid a crew of college students. What an amazing experience -- especially after-close cleanup when those older colleagues controlled the juke box. I learned how to make what we called New York-style pizza, and it was good, and I was proud to throw the circle of dough up in the air and dress it and manage it in the oven and cut it up and serve it.
On my breaks, there would always be an unclaimed pizza or two in the break room, and breaks were pretty delicious.
But that wasn't New York pizza. I graduated high school and moved to New York and learned about real pizza and it blew my mind.
Maybe 42 states prefer "New York" pizza, but 41 are fantasizing and only one is actually enjoying it.
posted by Scarf Joint at 11:31 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
In Providence, at least when I was living in the city, there was a fierce competition among the various pizzerias, which led to them specializing in different styles. Each one was different, from vegan to strips to Neapolitan to rare varieties like one that had some Italian variety that was basically white pizza with marinara ladled on right after it came out of the oven (it sounds weird but it was delicious).
It even had a single Domino’s, that survived despite me never seeing its single branded delivery car move out of its parking spot, because they bombarded the city’s many college campuses with flyers when first-year students arrived, and sold enough to get through the year during the two-week period before the out-of-towners were shown the wonders of Providence pizza.
Anyway, I feel like this survey breaks down in areas with large Italian-American populations.
posted by Kattullus at 12:25 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
It even had a single Domino’s, that survived despite me never seeing its single branded delivery car move out of its parking spot, because they bombarded the city’s many college campuses with flyers when first-year students arrived, and sold enough to get through the year during the two-week period before the out-of-towners were shown the wonders of Providence pizza.
Anyway, I feel like this survey breaks down in areas with large Italian-American populations.
posted by Kattullus at 12:25 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Submitted for you approval, Delaware style pizza, apparently.
posted by juv3nal at 1:29 AM on September 2, 2023
posted by juv3nal at 1:29 AM on September 2, 2023
The best part of the Greek pizza dominating in NH is that the places serving it all basically have the same name, which is X House of Pizza. In 2018, there were more HoPs than towns in NH.
posted by damayanti at 4:17 AM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by damayanti at 4:17 AM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Brit, so nothing useful to add here. However, there was this But how can you go wrong with bread, cheese, sauce and your topping of choice? Challenge accepted.
Back in the mid-90s Heinz sold a range of pizzas topped with baked beans, it was discontinued in 2003 which is about 8 years later than I would have expected. Like the proverbial bad penny, it is back.
posted by epo at 6:57 AM on September 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Back in the mid-90s Heinz sold a range of pizzas topped with baked beans, it was discontinued in 2003 which is about 8 years later than I would have expected. Like the proverbial bad penny, it is back.
posted by epo at 6:57 AM on September 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, Imo’s St Louis style pizza is terrific.
If by "terrific" you mean "extremely cursed" then sure...
When my brother and his wife came to visit us a few years ago, they wanted to try Imo's out of curiosity. I warned them, but there was no stopping them.
Looking at the leftovers in the fridge the next day -- approximately 7/8 of a whole pizza -- I thought it was upside down in the box. I flipped a piece over only to discover that the "crust" and the "cheese" were the exact same color and texture.
posted by Foosnark at 7:02 AM on September 2, 2023
If by "terrific" you mean "extremely cursed" then sure...
When my brother and his wife came to visit us a few years ago, they wanted to try Imo's out of curiosity. I warned them, but there was no stopping them.
Looking at the leftovers in the fridge the next day -- approximately 7/8 of a whole pizza -- I thought it was upside down in the box. I flipped a piece over only to discover that the "crust" and the "cheese" were the exact same color and texture.
posted by Foosnark at 7:02 AM on September 2, 2023
art.bikes agreed, middle pieces were the worst. Not only greasy to hold but the heaviest amount of cheese and toppings. Growing up in the Chicago suburbs, tavern style pizza was just “pizza” and I didn’t eat a triangle-shaped slice until I was an adult. It was a mythical exotic food, same as eating Chinese food from a white box—only seen on tv.
My experience with tavern style is that it’s also on the greasier side. No hate! I guess it’s the type or quantity of cheese? John’s pizza, RIP, caused the turning point in my gallbladder attacks. I didn’t stop eating it, but asking for half the regular amount of cheese helped. A lot of these little 50-75 year old tavern style joints in Chicago have been slowly closing over the last decade.
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:26 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
My experience with tavern style is that it’s also on the greasier side. No hate! I guess it’s the type or quantity of cheese? John’s pizza, RIP, caused the turning point in my gallbladder attacks. I didn’t stop eating it, but asking for half the regular amount of cheese helped. A lot of these little 50-75 year old tavern style joints in Chicago have been slowly closing over the last decade.
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:26 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Putting the Yelp-driven database in the spin-off article (Look up the best regional pizza in your state) was kind of silly. The results are pretty random, not much better than googling "pizza near me."
Looking at New York City, you see that lots of objectively great places don't come up. I mean, Una Pizza Napoletana is not listed as a best neapolitan? What madness is this. No Lucali, no Roberta's, no Paulie Gee's.
Methodology says that the reviews have to mention the pizza style, which borks it all up, since you aren't usually motivated to make a distinction between New York Style and Neopolitan when you are actually IN New York. (People at Pepe's and Sally's seem extremely conscious that they are eating "New Haven style," though. :D )
posted by anhedonic at 7:49 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Looking at New York City, you see that lots of objectively great places don't come up. I mean, Una Pizza Napoletana is not listed as a best neapolitan? What madness is this. No Lucali, no Roberta's, no Paulie Gee's.
Methodology says that the reviews have to mention the pizza style, which borks it all up, since you aren't usually motivated to make a distinction between New York Style and Neopolitan when you are actually IN New York. (People at Pepe's and Sally's seem extremely conscious that they are eating "New Haven style," though. :D )
posted by anhedonic at 7:49 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
All this hate for St. Louis pizza just makes it taste EVEN BETTER. BWAHAHAHAHA
posted by pantarei70 at 9:16 AM on September 2, 2023
posted by pantarei70 at 9:16 AM on September 2, 2023
I admire St Louis pizza, as one admires a particularly venomous snail, or the siege of Troy. It is enjoyable to discuss, frightening to observe, and I am glad that it is far, far away.
posted by q*ben at 10:21 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by q*ben at 10:21 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
“It's nice to finally meet a couple fellow pizza lovers.”
posted by ob1quixote at 12:35 PM on September 2, 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 12:35 PM on September 2, 2023
Growing up in a rural area of a farm state, every small town had several bars that offered some food offerings. Starting in my memory in the early 70's, most town bars (taverns) had a toaster oven like machine that would cook frozen pizzas. That was about the only non-home-cooked food available in town. THAT'S what I imagine when they say Tavern Pizza.
The frozen brands Tombstone and Red Baron were bar food, not buy them at the grocery store brands in my childhood.
posted by jkosmicki at 1:27 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
The frozen brands Tombstone and Red Baron were bar food, not buy them at the grocery store brands in my childhood.
posted by jkosmicki at 1:27 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would like to get in on the making of grand declarations about what everyone in Chicago says and does. Everyone in Chicago calls the ubiquitous-since-at-least-the-80s, thin, cracker crust pizza “tavern cut” or “tavern style,” and everyone knows it’s the real Chicago style pizza. Everyone also knows if you really want deep dish or pan style, go to Pequod’s.
Fwiw, tavern style was predominant throughout my 80s & 90s childhood in semi-rural centralish IL as well, so I don’t think it’s precisely hyper-regional.
posted by lieber hair at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Fwiw, tavern style was predominant throughout my 80s & 90s childhood in semi-rural centralish IL as well, so I don’t think it’s precisely hyper-regional.
posted by lieber hair at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Food trucks!? How do they get the oven in there?
You convert a bus. Then you park it in Moab. I swear to god we try and make every road trip in the Southwest / Mountainwest go through Moab to hit the food trucks after a hike.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:34 PM on September 2, 2023
You convert a bus. Then you park it in Moab. I swear to god we try and make every road trip in the Southwest / Mountainwest go through Moab to hit the food trucks after a hike.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:34 PM on September 2, 2023
I live in walking distance to Detroit style, several ‘domino’s’ style, neapolitan style, deep dish and sourdough california style restaurants…recently also an indian curry/pizza mashup…freshly homemade in a cast-iron pan is still my favorite and saves a lot of money. Learn to master yeast dough, your life will be vastly improved.
posted by The Toad at 5:13 PM on September 2, 2023
posted by The Toad at 5:13 PM on September 2, 2023
I've never, ever even seen pizza cut in squares other than in the elementary school lunch room when I was a kid, and don't understand why you would cut it that way.
Because square pizza is the best pizza. Broadway Pizza in Minnesota does it well. Our local Domino's cuts the thin crust that way, too. It can't be too bready or too saucy, so that means the topping/sauce/crust ratio is correct.
posted by soelo at 6:24 PM on September 2, 2023
Because square pizza is the best pizza. Broadway Pizza in Minnesota does it well. Our local Domino's cuts the thin crust that way, too. It can't be too bready or too saucy, so that means the topping/sauce/crust ratio is correct.
posted by soelo at 6:24 PM on September 2, 2023
Hard agree that I bet deep dish isn't the most commonly eaten pizza variant in Chicago, let alone anywhere else in the Midwest. When I think of Chicago pizza, I'm definitely thinking more of thin crispy crust + square cuts (Gino's North - my old local neighborhood pizza place, no relation to the other Gino's - makes a solid version.) Deep dish is a "eat every now and then when friends or relatives are in town" thing.
I've never quite figured out what to call what I grew up with in Cleveland. Bready external crust (crispy outside but chewy inside, sometimes sorta curled over - height not necessarily due to a tall pan like Chicago deep dish or Detroit styles, but more robust than NYC and other thinner-crust varieties) and relatively dense but still bready base on top of cornmeal, thicker cheese layer than New York pizza but still thinner than deep dish pizza (and with cheese on top), mostly slices rather than squares. Maybe more provolone or something else with a bit more character than mozzarella? It's the sort of thing you'd find in random local places (e.g. Geppetto's, Angelo's, Dante's), and it doesn't quite match any of these overarching categories, despite it being what I think of as the generic version of "pizza."
posted by ASF Tod und Schwerkraft at 6:53 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've never quite figured out what to call what I grew up with in Cleveland. Bready external crust (crispy outside but chewy inside, sometimes sorta curled over - height not necessarily due to a tall pan like Chicago deep dish or Detroit styles, but more robust than NYC and other thinner-crust varieties) and relatively dense but still bready base on top of cornmeal, thicker cheese layer than New York pizza but still thinner than deep dish pizza (and with cheese on top), mostly slices rather than squares. Maybe more provolone or something else with a bit more character than mozzarella? It's the sort of thing you'd find in random local places (e.g. Geppetto's, Angelo's, Dante's), and it doesn't quite match any of these overarching categories, despite it being what I think of as the generic version of "pizza."
posted by ASF Tod und Schwerkraft at 6:53 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would say as someone who is an outsider to the area I'd call most of the pizza up here "tavern style". But it's like a fish not realizing it swims in water. They call it pizza because it's all they know.
posted by Ferreous at 7:01 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ferreous at 7:01 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Food trucks!? How do they get the oven in there?
You convert a bus. Then you park it in Moab. I swear to god we try and make every road trip in the Southwest / Mountainwest go through Moab to hit the food trucks after a hike.
Every time I've had food truck pizza it has been good. (I have eaten at the Moab food truck park many times, but mostly haven't gotten pizza there.) My theory is because their competition is so intense -- they have to be better than, say, the nearby taco truck, or the Thai truck, not just better than Domino's.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:39 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
You convert a bus. Then you park it in Moab. I swear to god we try and make every road trip in the Southwest / Mountainwest go through Moab to hit the food trucks after a hike.
Every time I've had food truck pizza it has been good. (I have eaten at the Moab food truck park many times, but mostly haven't gotten pizza there.) My theory is because their competition is so intense -- they have to be better than, say, the nearby taco truck, or the Thai truck, not just better than Domino's.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:39 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
In Austin for over 40 years I have enjoyed THE ONE TRUE PIZZA: Conan's Deep Dish Chicago Style Pizza with whole wheat crust. I have eaten through a world of pizza in pizza-dense Austin but always return to Conan's for the best pizza.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 8:25 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 8:25 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Do they have Domino's outside of the North American Corn empire?--eustatic
They are world-wide. Even Italy until they finally gave up last year (you have to admire the chutzpah), and Russia up till a couple of days ago. It is depressing to think that people outside the US would get their impression of American pizza from chains like Dominos and Pizza Hut.
At least the first article finally mentions Indian pizza, which can be found all over the SF Bay Area.
posted by eye of newt at 9:30 PM on September 2, 2023
They are world-wide. Even Italy until they finally gave up last year (you have to admire the chutzpah), and Russia up till a couple of days ago. It is depressing to think that people outside the US would get their impression of American pizza from chains like Dominos and Pizza Hut.
At least the first article finally mentions Indian pizza, which can be found all over the SF Bay Area.
posted by eye of newt at 9:30 PM on September 2, 2023
You know those videos you see about mattress stores no one ever goes in, and speculation that they are fronts for organised crime of some sort?
That is Domino's in Canada. I have seen them here and there, little shoe box style shops, no one ever goes in. Are they even real? Who can say, Canada has too many decent pizza options to bother checking.
posted by seraphine at 9:38 PM on September 2, 2023
That is Domino's in Canada. I have seen them here and there, little shoe box style shops, no one ever goes in. Are they even real? Who can say, Canada has too many decent pizza options to bother checking.
posted by seraphine at 9:38 PM on September 2, 2023
I always like to point out that Ohio Valley Style is what I grew up with.
Pizza is so regional. There is also Dayton style pizza... which is in the Miami Valley.
(Dayton style is like St.Louis style but with regular cheese. I can eat a whole Marion's supreme in an evening - the little square pieces are like poppable little snacks.)
posted by charred husk at 6:12 AM on September 3, 2023
Pizza is so regional. There is also Dayton style pizza... which is in the Miami Valley.
(Dayton style is like St.Louis style but with regular cheese. I can eat a whole Marion's supreme in an evening - the little square pieces are like poppable little snacks.)
posted by charred husk at 6:12 AM on September 3, 2023
I had no idea before moving there that it was a thing but I've come to love it (especially the bizarre white clam).
I'll forgive many slights against Connecticut as long as CT pizza is given its due. Clam pizza isn't that weird though, surely?
Who can say, Canada has too many decent pizza options to bother checking.
Look, sometimes, hypothetically, one might feel a possibly self-destructive urge to eat horrifically greasy pizza from a chain. Even if one is living in an area with many options of far higher quality like, I don't know, New Haven CT or something. And especially when pizza hut has a pretzel crust.
Hypothetically.
posted by Baethan at 9:20 AM on September 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll forgive many slights against Connecticut as long as CT pizza is given its due. Clam pizza isn't that weird though, surely?
Who can say, Canada has too many decent pizza options to bother checking.
Look, sometimes, hypothetically, one might feel a possibly self-destructive urge to eat horrifically greasy pizza from a chain. Even if one is living in an area with many options of far higher quality like, I don't know, New Haven CT or something. And especially when pizza hut has a pretzel crust.
Hypothetically.
posted by Baethan at 9:20 AM on September 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
DC-Pizza-Filter: The Washington Post's special 'Pizza in America' coverage continues with Quad City, Old Forge, jumbo slice and more quirky American pizzas and Altoona is the first one listed. At least one of the cafeteria ladies in my Maryland elementary school must've come from Pennsylvania because that's so similar to what they served up, on Pizza Day! But I dunno about this D.C.Jumbo Slice business; claims origins in Adams-Morgan but I had slices like those in New Jersey twenty years ago. WaPo also just published a list of Washington’s Best Pizza, the legendary local Ledo's finally getting a mention, coming in at #7.
(Both links ungated)
posted by Rash at 5:08 PM on September 3, 2023
(Both links ungated)
posted by Rash at 5:08 PM on September 3, 2023
Can't speak to the origins, but an Adams-Morgan Jumbo Slice is an amazingly good piece of pizza if you can find your way to the neighborhood. Like, probably worth the trip on its own.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:24 PM on September 3, 2023
posted by Navelgazer at 7:24 PM on September 3, 2023
From the article Rash linked: "'There are better pizzas in D.C., but jumbo slice is an experience.'" In my experience (frequenting a place whose name I unfortunately can't remember) the Jumbo slice was one of the best-tasting pizzas I've ever had, but maybe it was just that place? In any case, the other pizzas I had in DC were not anywhere nearly as good, and one place (Armand's, which was close to Georgetown Law and thus regularly ordered-from by clubs and stuff unfamiliar with tastebuds) easily takes the prize for "Worst Pizza I've Ever Suffered" with crust that can best be described as "like a flavorless graham cracker."
posted by Navelgazer at 7:35 PM on September 3, 2023
posted by Navelgazer at 7:35 PM on September 3, 2023
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Also neglects to mention select parlors that make pizza according to the size of your wheel rim.
posted by clavdivs at 3:20 PM on September 1, 2023