Let Grow
September 4, 2023 1:07 PM Subscribe
Helping Anxious Kids Might be Easy. "Sometimes the impact is a little goofier. Ever since her elementary school started doing the Let Grow Project, one principal told Lenore, “Fewer kids are sticking their feet out.”
“They’d been tripping each other?” Lenore asked.
No, said the principal: “Fewer kids are asking their teacher to tie their shoes.”"
I can also add a riff on this, from the article:
What’s missing today isn’t just the thrill of climbing trees or playing flashlight tag. It’s that when an adult is always present — in person or electronically — kids never really get to see what they’re made of.
So, my most common playmate when I was in grade school was the daughter of the family across the street. When we were both about eight or nine, both her Mom and my Mom would sometimes deal with us saying we were bored by suggesting we bake something.
But there was a difference between baking at my house and baking at my friend's house. At my house, my Mom was always hovering nearby; either lingering in the doorway to keep an eye on us, or just-so happening to be in the living room, where our open-plan house let her still keep an eye on L and I in the kitchen. Whenever she saw something spill she'd quietly but emphatically point it out and suggest we stop to clean it up. She would accidentally-on-purpose wonder aloud about whether we'd measured everything properly, prompting us to say yes, we had.
At my friend's house, though, all her Mom did was first ask to read over the recipe; if she saw anything that seemed a bit complicated, she'd ask if we knew how to do that. Then she would ask L if she remembered where the fire extinguisher was - and then, she would leave the house. Either she'd go work in the yard, or she'd run over to one of our neighbors' houses, thus leaving L and I alone to make enormous messes and even more enormous mistakes. At least 30% of the time our baking sessions would end with the smoke alarm going off, and I would take up a post by the back door flinging the back door open and shut to fan the smoke outside while L ran around the house swinging towels to disperse the smoke before her Mom got home.
I have no idea if L's mom noticed anything. I'm sure she must have - but she never said anything, except for the one time we experimented with tripling the quantity of chocolate chips in a recipe. We coped with the higher "smoke point" by undercooking all the cookies, and she came home to find us looking slightly ill as we ate underdone cookies and insisted to her that no, they were fine, really.
My own mother taught me the basics of measuring things in the kitchen, but L's Mom taught me far, far more about cooking - by letting L and I fuck up and try to get ourselves out of it, and by waiting until we asked for help to offer it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:29 PM on September 4, 2023 [66 favorites]
What’s missing today isn’t just the thrill of climbing trees or playing flashlight tag. It’s that when an adult is always present — in person or electronically — kids never really get to see what they’re made of.
So, my most common playmate when I was in grade school was the daughter of the family across the street. When we were both about eight or nine, both her Mom and my Mom would sometimes deal with us saying we were bored by suggesting we bake something.
But there was a difference between baking at my house and baking at my friend's house. At my house, my Mom was always hovering nearby; either lingering in the doorway to keep an eye on us, or just-so happening to be in the living room, where our open-plan house let her still keep an eye on L and I in the kitchen. Whenever she saw something spill she'd quietly but emphatically point it out and suggest we stop to clean it up. She would accidentally-on-purpose wonder aloud about whether we'd measured everything properly, prompting us to say yes, we had.
At my friend's house, though, all her Mom did was first ask to read over the recipe; if she saw anything that seemed a bit complicated, she'd ask if we knew how to do that. Then she would ask L if she remembered where the fire extinguisher was - and then, she would leave the house. Either she'd go work in the yard, or she'd run over to one of our neighbors' houses, thus leaving L and I alone to make enormous messes and even more enormous mistakes. At least 30% of the time our baking sessions would end with the smoke alarm going off, and I would take up a post by the back door flinging the back door open and shut to fan the smoke outside while L ran around the house swinging towels to disperse the smoke before her Mom got home.
I have no idea if L's mom noticed anything. I'm sure she must have - but she never said anything, except for the one time we experimented with tripling the quantity of chocolate chips in a recipe. We coped with the higher "smoke point" by undercooking all the cookies, and she came home to find us looking slightly ill as we ate underdone cookies and insisted to her that no, they were fine, really.
My own mother taught me the basics of measuring things in the kitchen, but L's Mom taught me far, far more about cooking - by letting L and I fuck up and try to get ourselves out of it, and by waiting until we asked for help to offer it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:29 PM on September 4, 2023 [66 favorites]
There's an important concept embedded in the Independent Living movement: the dignity of risk. It's the flipside of the duty of care: to provide a truly caring community, people must be allowed the freedom to make mistakes rather than being wrapped in cotton wool and left in safe tedium. Let Grow seems to be built along the same idea.
posted by scruss at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by scruss at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
I've noticed this distinction between the way I was raised versus my nieces who are 20 years younger. They NEVER did anything without an adult present. Ever. They couldn't walk to the park down the street on their own.
I would walk to the park with my brother and a few friends and stay there still the streetlights came on. We had to figure stuff out. If someone upset someone else we had to resolve it. We learned to socialize and be people.
They are all, bless them, little wimps. They are still utter children in their 20s. I cannot believe how childish they are.
This is anecdotal but still...
posted by dazedandconfused at 2:42 PM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would walk to the park with my brother and a few friends and stay there still the streetlights came on. We had to figure stuff out. If someone upset someone else we had to resolve it. We learned to socialize and be people.
They are all, bless them, little wimps. They are still utter children in their 20s. I cannot believe how childish they are.
This is anecdotal but still...
posted by dazedandconfused at 2:42 PM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
My ten year old walks a few blocks on a busy street to my office after she gets off her bus from school. She crosses a couple streets at stoplights. She's fine with it and so am I, but the parents who wait for their kids at the bus stop are clearly very uncomfortable letting her go off by herself. Which I completely understand - I appreciate that they feel some measure of responsibility for their child's classmate! But it makes me feel like shit, even if it seems pretty clear to me that this level of independence is empowering for her. It's hard to be the one parent letting their kids do stuff by themselves in a culture where nobody else is.
posted by potrzebie at 3:17 PM on September 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 3:17 PM on September 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
People are shocked that we have no cameras in our toddler kids' room. Our bedroom is close enough to hear when shit has really gone down, and otherwise, we think they deserve a but of privacy when getting up to the insane antics they definitely do. #downwithkidpanopticons
posted by atomicstone at 3:40 PM on September 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by atomicstone at 3:40 PM on September 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
Well... I don't have kids, only a niece, but I'm pretty sure that, if I were a parent, I'd struggle with finding a good balance between protecting my child while giving room for their independence, allowing risk and failure, which may have bad consequences. The fact that it worked for some of you as kids may just be survivorship bias, no?
posted by JSilva at 3:50 PM on September 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by JSilva at 3:50 PM on September 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
"This Simple Fix" -> that is pretty fucking insulting to parents of kids with severe anxiety, or those whose neurodivergence makes normative environments unsafe and unsupportive.
My kid is diagnosed with anxiety, among other things. The problem isn't that we don't let him go to the store himself, or play with other kids unsupervised. I would love for him to go to the store himself or play with other kids on his own, or even small baby steps towards these objectives. The problem is that he has a disability, anxiety is a big part of this disability, and people around him keep trying to fix him rather than accommodate him. You can't learn to swim when you're drowning. Furthermore, the nature of his maladaptive responses to his anxiety tend to make the ableist world try to punish and exclude him instead of changing things to accommodate him, ratcheting up his anxiety further and plummeting him down a vicious spiral.
(Since the article mentions exposure therapy, I should also mention specifically that exposure therapy is indicated for certain anxieties, like OCD, and not for others, like PDA. Talking it up as a remedy for all cases is irresponsible.)
I have always believed - and still believe - that parents hover too much, that kids can just socialize on their own, that kids can walk around by themselves and be independent and autonomous. The reason my kid can't do all this isn't because I'm too protective and cocoony - it's because he does, in fact, have severe anxiety and that's where this common-sense advice fails.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:52 PM on September 4, 2023 [34 favorites]
My kid is diagnosed with anxiety, among other things. The problem isn't that we don't let him go to the store himself, or play with other kids unsupervised. I would love for him to go to the store himself or play with other kids on his own, or even small baby steps towards these objectives. The problem is that he has a disability, anxiety is a big part of this disability, and people around him keep trying to fix him rather than accommodate him. You can't learn to swim when you're drowning. Furthermore, the nature of his maladaptive responses to his anxiety tend to make the ableist world try to punish and exclude him instead of changing things to accommodate him, ratcheting up his anxiety further and plummeting him down a vicious spiral.
(Since the article mentions exposure therapy, I should also mention specifically that exposure therapy is indicated for certain anxieties, like OCD, and not for others, like PDA. Talking it up as a remedy for all cases is irresponsible.)
I have always believed - and still believe - that parents hover too much, that kids can just socialize on their own, that kids can walk around by themselves and be independent and autonomous. The reason my kid can't do all this isn't because I'm too protective and cocoony - it's because he does, in fact, have severe anxiety and that's where this common-sense advice fails.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:52 PM on September 4, 2023 [34 favorites]
My experience as a HS school teacher was that children are so scared of messing up even the smallest thing while their parent's will give a lot of lip service to letting their children learn independence when they were the cause. It was a boarding school I taught at so, these kids were either there full time in the dorms or home on the weekends and you'd think that would self-select a certain kind of parent, but that's not true at all. Those parents would do almost nothing that actually followed through or represented their values.
So like, letting them mess up sometimes? No, kids were terrified of a low grade because they'd get in trouble, get their phones taken away, not be allowed to go to a dance, etc. If they can't get bad grades sometimes, you aren't allowing for independence that's damn sure. Would the parents call in to micromanage their children's roommate disagreements from hundreds of miles away? Without a doubt, of course. Parents were calling the dean of students about like, the lowest level tiff's between two students "she took my daughter's shirt remove her she's a thief!" "she's accusing my daughter of being a thief! this is unacceptable." Did the kids never use any of the mediation and conflict resolution offered because they saw that as "being in trouble" and therefore their parents might find out? Yes, they'd hides heinous shit because they learned you can't trust adults from their strict-ass parents.
So every Staff + Parent Tea where parents would wax on about independence they thought the school was teaching and I had to bite my tongue right off to not say "yeah in spite of all of you!" Parents, on a whole, are not self-aware about how they are as parents. You're in too deep to see it.
I know all of this is unique because I went to this same school 15 years earlier. I talked to my coworkers who'd been my teachers and had seen all the changes to the culture, to school policies, etc, because of Parents. Parents parents parents. The school used to not have grades. School used to do more farm work. School used to have more hands on trips (the trips were the school's thing, I spent a month on an off the grid farms my senior year, for example). I used to BE a dang mediator and students legit used the mediation stuff all the time in like 2006.
15 years later? Grades and students who cry and stress about them, two farm work days a year when one my friends from back in the day got a special farm skills certification on her diploma and is now a farmer, trips are almost entirely done independently through parents (trips only for rich kids and under parental watch) or have been so downsized it's depressing.
Also as an autistic person, my ND students suffered the most from the way the culture changed that school. Their parents were so involved in advocating for them they more often than anything were contradicting their blossoming adults explicit wishes. Parents who I respect cared very much for their children, but saw them eternally and forever as something to be protected only, like scruss mentions (I appreciated that link). I've seen kids really fucked over by their parents, not being allowed to make choices for themselves that their NT classmate's were. Out of caution, yes out of fear, yes even out of anxiety, yet, still, fucking the kid over in the end. The intention or the cause doesn't really change the result. This was usually after the school had probably fucked over the kid in some other way about accommodations they DID need or wanted (it sucked being an ND teacher as much as it probably did being an ND student at that toxic school). I even saw parents find out their student had asked for accommodations and asked the school to reverse them because they didn't like the diagnosis (usually of autism or ADHD) so we weren't allowed to give help them, or were only allowed to do XYZ, even though the kid wanted it, agreed with the doctor, whatever. Their right as a parent, sure, but painfully fucked up. I knew many kids who were dying to be 18 so they could get appropriate treatment for their mental health and learning disability needs. I'm not going to share specifics anymore than that bc I start to worry about sharing too many details that aren't mine to share. I agree that exposure therapy is offered like a cure-all by laypeople it's infuriating, but I don't think this push for giving children more independence is inherently bad for disabled kids at all, and yeah probably going to be really hard for some parents who probably need help and support for their own anxiety. But the kids simply aren't being served, not at all, by this current parenting culture.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 4:27 PM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
So like, letting them mess up sometimes? No, kids were terrified of a low grade because they'd get in trouble, get their phones taken away, not be allowed to go to a dance, etc. If they can't get bad grades sometimes, you aren't allowing for independence that's damn sure. Would the parents call in to micromanage their children's roommate disagreements from hundreds of miles away? Without a doubt, of course. Parents were calling the dean of students about like, the lowest level tiff's between two students "she took my daughter's shirt remove her she's a thief!" "she's accusing my daughter of being a thief! this is unacceptable." Did the kids never use any of the mediation and conflict resolution offered because they saw that as "being in trouble" and therefore their parents might find out? Yes, they'd hides heinous shit because they learned you can't trust adults from their strict-ass parents.
So every Staff + Parent Tea where parents would wax on about independence they thought the school was teaching and I had to bite my tongue right off to not say "yeah in spite of all of you!" Parents, on a whole, are not self-aware about how they are as parents. You're in too deep to see it.
I know all of this is unique because I went to this same school 15 years earlier. I talked to my coworkers who'd been my teachers and had seen all the changes to the culture, to school policies, etc, because of Parents. Parents parents parents. The school used to not have grades. School used to do more farm work. School used to have more hands on trips (the trips were the school's thing, I spent a month on an off the grid farms my senior year, for example). I used to BE a dang mediator and students legit used the mediation stuff all the time in like 2006.
15 years later? Grades and students who cry and stress about them, two farm work days a year when one my friends from back in the day got a special farm skills certification on her diploma and is now a farmer, trips are almost entirely done independently through parents (trips only for rich kids and under parental watch) or have been so downsized it's depressing.
Also as an autistic person, my ND students suffered the most from the way the culture changed that school. Their parents were so involved in advocating for them they more often than anything were contradicting their blossoming adults explicit wishes. Parents who I respect cared very much for their children, but saw them eternally and forever as something to be protected only, like scruss mentions (I appreciated that link). I've seen kids really fucked over by their parents, not being allowed to make choices for themselves that their NT classmate's were. Out of caution, yes out of fear, yes even out of anxiety, yet, still, fucking the kid over in the end. The intention or the cause doesn't really change the result. This was usually after the school had probably fucked over the kid in some other way about accommodations they DID need or wanted (it sucked being an ND teacher as much as it probably did being an ND student at that toxic school). I even saw parents find out their student had asked for accommodations and asked the school to reverse them because they didn't like the diagnosis (usually of autism or ADHD) so we weren't allowed to give help them, or were only allowed to do XYZ, even though the kid wanted it, agreed with the doctor, whatever. Their right as a parent, sure, but painfully fucked up. I knew many kids who were dying to be 18 so they could get appropriate treatment for their mental health and learning disability needs. I'm not going to share specifics anymore than that bc I start to worry about sharing too many details that aren't mine to share. I agree that exposure therapy is offered like a cure-all by laypeople it's infuriating, but I don't think this push for giving children more independence is inherently bad for disabled kids at all, and yeah probably going to be really hard for some parents who probably need help and support for their own anxiety. But the kids simply aren't being served, not at all, by this current parenting culture.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 4:27 PM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
Yay, the good old days. Like in the 1960's, when I was a boy. No adults around when I was a boy, nope. So, all the way from grade 5 to grade 8, I had the wonderful experience of being constantly bullied with absolutely no help from any adult whatsoever. Not even so much as a teacher standing somewhere where they could see the schoolgrounds. I'll give you a hint: it did *not* teach me resilience. To this day, I jump whenever I hear someone behind me.
I would have *loved* to be cossetted.
posted by Mogur at 4:33 PM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
I would have *loved* to be cossetted.
posted by Mogur at 4:33 PM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'm so sorry, Mogur.
posted by stevil at 4:35 PM on September 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by stevil at 4:35 PM on September 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
The problem is that intensive parenting (aka helicopter parenting) works, by the definition of success in our capitalist society. Who cares if intensively parented kids are more anxious when they get into better colleges and have more successful careers?
Besides, in my experience American society doesn't really want to see independent kids. Independent kids are loud, they make messes, they are a nuisance.
posted by muddgirl at 4:39 PM on September 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
Besides, in my experience American society doesn't really want to see independent kids. Independent kids are loud, they make messes, they are a nuisance.
posted by muddgirl at 4:39 PM on September 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
Independent kids are loud, they make messes, they are a nuisance.
...and, worse than that, they believe the wrong things! Gotta keep an eye on them to make sure they learn the right kind of hatreds.
posted by aramaic at 4:47 PM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
...and, worse than that, they believe the wrong things! Gotta keep an eye on them to make sure they learn the right kind of hatreds.
posted by aramaic at 4:47 PM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Mogur, thank you for sharing your story! Unsupervised, some kids bully, I see it all the time. As a parent it is hard to know what to do, I was bullied on and off as a kid and my parents didn't really know what to do either.
posted by muddgirl at 4:53 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 4:53 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'll give you a hint: it did *not* teach me resilience.
Oh god no, never.
I feel like we all learn exactly the wrong lessons (the specific lesson varies, but they're all Not Good Lessons) from that kind of thing (me: bullied for 9 years). The main lesson I learned was to respond with out-of-scale violence at an unexpected juncture, relying on my good grades/behavior/"good" minority status to get me off the hook. This, as it turns out, is not a great lesson for someone to learn, for a whole range of reasons.
Bullying was taken way, way, way too lightly for much too long, if it was even noticed at all.
posted by aramaic at 5:33 PM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh god no, never.
I feel like we all learn exactly the wrong lessons (the specific lesson varies, but they're all Not Good Lessons) from that kind of thing (me: bullied for 9 years). The main lesson I learned was to respond with out-of-scale violence at an unexpected juncture, relying on my good grades/behavior/"good" minority status to get me off the hook. This, as it turns out, is not a great lesson for someone to learn, for a whole range of reasons.
Bullying was taken way, way, way too lightly for much too long, if it was even noticed at all.
posted by aramaic at 5:33 PM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Independent kids are loud, they make messes, they are a nuisance.
The most feral kids that I ever knew were my demonic whirlwind cousins, raised/observed by my laid-back hippy aunt. They turned into charming intelligent adults.
posted by ovvl at 5:56 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The most feral kids that I ever knew were my demonic whirlwind cousins, raised/observed by my laid-back hippy aunt. They turned into charming intelligent adults.
posted by ovvl at 5:56 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I signed up with Let Grow to download the "Independence Kit" for parents & kids and....
It's super normal stuff. Like 70% of the project suggestions are just "play outside" but more specific. Which isn't bad, I hasten to add. It's nice to have suggestions to spark ideas & interest. But it's pretty much stuff that kids naturally do when they play outside. Climb a tree, find some bugs. After much puzzling over this, I think it's meant to encourage a specific kind of independence that I'd call "unstructured time".
There's other stuff like pet sit for a neighbor and run an errand which might need some tweaking to be doable depending on where you live.
Ignoring transportation, asking my kid to run an errand by himself would be like throwing him in the deep end, but...
He's long had a huge issue with water on his face in baths/showers. We don't make a huge effort to avoid any water on his face but also haven't actively made him get used to it. I was (privately) worried about how he'll do with swimming lessons, but we went to a pool party and he LOVED being in the water. Er, that water anyway.
So while I don't think I'm a helicopter parent & I do let them figure out some things by themselves, this discussion has helped me realize that there are a lot of ways I can more actively facilitate learning independence, skills, & confidence without shoving him out of the nest before he knows how to fly.
Maybe that's assumed, that you'll teach them some things? And balance that with unstructured, figure-it-out-yourself time? I had independence as a kid, but desperately needed guidance. Some kids just drown....I half-drowned and am still struggling to keep my head above water. I don't want that for my kids. It doesn't have to be complete hands off, and I'm not sure the program is really pushing for that. Pendulum has just swung too far towards protecting kids and it seems like this is an attempt to correct that.
posted by Baethan at 6:55 PM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's super normal stuff. Like 70% of the project suggestions are just "play outside" but more specific. Which isn't bad, I hasten to add. It's nice to have suggestions to spark ideas & interest. But it's pretty much stuff that kids naturally do when they play outside. Climb a tree, find some bugs. After much puzzling over this, I think it's meant to encourage a specific kind of independence that I'd call "unstructured time".
There's other stuff like pet sit for a neighbor and run an errand which might need some tweaking to be doable depending on where you live.
Ignoring transportation, asking my kid to run an errand by himself would be like throwing him in the deep end, but...
He's long had a huge issue with water on his face in baths/showers. We don't make a huge effort to avoid any water on his face but also haven't actively made him get used to it. I was (privately) worried about how he'll do with swimming lessons, but we went to a pool party and he LOVED being in the water. Er, that water anyway.
So while I don't think I'm a helicopter parent & I do let them figure out some things by themselves, this discussion has helped me realize that there are a lot of ways I can more actively facilitate learning independence, skills, & confidence without shoving him out of the nest before he knows how to fly.
Maybe that's assumed, that you'll teach them some things? And balance that with unstructured, figure-it-out-yourself time? I had independence as a kid, but desperately needed guidance. Some kids just drown....I half-drowned and am still struggling to keep my head above water. I don't want that for my kids. It doesn't have to be complete hands off, and I'm not sure the program is really pushing for that. Pendulum has just swung too far towards protecting kids and it seems like this is an attempt to correct that.
posted by Baethan at 6:55 PM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I grew up in the 60s, and was one of those wild and crazy independent kids. The only time I remember my parents hovering was the first time I was allowed to ride my bike by myself up to the school (on a weekend), about a mile. My dad followed along in the car about three blocks behind me.
I had a little bit of bullying when I was a kid, but we also had "playground teachers" running patrol during recess and regular teacher who didn't put up with it.
posted by lhauser at 7:10 PM on September 4, 2023
I had a little bit of bullying when I was a kid, but we also had "playground teachers" running patrol during recess and regular teacher who didn't put up with it.
posted by lhauser at 7:10 PM on September 4, 2023
I talk about this with my siblings and friends who have kids all the time. Especially those with only children. Omg we would love to be able to let our kids play outside in the street. We are desperate to do what our parents did at weekends: i.e., kick us out the house to play with the other kids in the street till dinner time. I have ZERO memories of playing with my parents when I was a child. It was all about playing with a swarm of other brats outside in the street. I don't need a New York Times article to tell me how awesome it was! I learnt to roller skate because I wanted to keep up with all the other kids. My son has absolutely no incentive to learn. Who does he have to impress? Me? Even if he had the motivation he knows the only time he'd skate would be when I get a break in my schedule to take him to the park. He's probably never going to learn. That's fucking sad.
But here's the think. No matter how desperately I want to let my kid play outside on his own, I know damn well that if I let him do that I'd have CPS called on me before he got to the end of the block. If my siblings in the UK let my nieces and nephews run down to the shops on an errand on their own, they'd have the police on their door steps too. Whose going to risk that? We're not afraid of our kids being attacked, we're afraid of being policed for letting our kids out of our sight.
It's a chicken and egg problem. Because no one else does it, no single family can let their kid roam free without being afraid of getting in actual legal trouble for it, even if there is actually a critical mass or parents who would much rather let their kids play outside.
posted by EllaEm at 8:36 PM on September 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
But here's the think. No matter how desperately I want to let my kid play outside on his own, I know damn well that if I let him do that I'd have CPS called on me before he got to the end of the block. If my siblings in the UK let my nieces and nephews run down to the shops on an errand on their own, they'd have the police on their door steps too. Whose going to risk that? We're not afraid of our kids being attacked, we're afraid of being policed for letting our kids out of our sight.
It's a chicken and egg problem. Because no one else does it, no single family can let their kid roam free without being afraid of getting in actual legal trouble for it, even if there is actually a critical mass or parents who would much rather let their kids play outside.
posted by EllaEm at 8:36 PM on September 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm not a parent, but we also can't ignore the much greater threat of traffic violence too. There are more cars, larger cars, driving faster on wider roads. When everyone drives their kids to school in nightmare school pickup/dropoff traffic, it makes it that much more dangerous for kids to walk or bike, with or without parental supervision.
posted by misskaz at 4:30 AM on September 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 4:30 AM on September 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not a parent, but we also can't ignore the much greater threat of traffic violence too.
This reminds me so much of my childhood.
We lived for a while at the end of a cul-de-sac that opened onto a poorly designed street. Even though it wasn't too busy, it was much wider than necessary, making people speed down it, and there were no safe pedestrian crossing zones. My mom wasn't the hovering type, and would let me play outdoors unsupervised - but she didn't want me to cross that street, so I was limited to the cul-de-sac. There wasn't anywhere to go, and there were no kids my age to play with.
Then we moved to a different and older neighborhood with a lot more connecting residential streets. These streets didn't get much through traffic because they were small and had never been "improved" to help traffic flow. Similar rules about not crossing the busy streets - but my world expanded SO MUCH. I had friends houses I could walk to, I could ride my bike, I could go to the park.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:41 AM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
This reminds me so much of my childhood.
We lived for a while at the end of a cul-de-sac that opened onto a poorly designed street. Even though it wasn't too busy, it was much wider than necessary, making people speed down it, and there were no safe pedestrian crossing zones. My mom wasn't the hovering type, and would let me play outdoors unsupervised - but she didn't want me to cross that street, so I was limited to the cul-de-sac. There wasn't anywhere to go, and there were no kids my age to play with.
Then we moved to a different and older neighborhood with a lot more connecting residential streets. These streets didn't get much through traffic because they were small and had never been "improved" to help traffic flow. Similar rules about not crossing the busy streets - but my world expanded SO MUCH. I had friends houses I could walk to, I could ride my bike, I could go to the park.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:41 AM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I tried a bit of free-range parenting, but after some device addiction (god Apple & Googles' parental controls can be bypassed by 5 year olds - they obviously don't put much effort into that) and two trips to the ER and trying to find a therapist (know I know why there are so many 'therapy' questions on ask - your average therapist is terrible while also being expensive) I'm on team helicoptering now. And this is with an anxious kid. I can't imagine if I'd gotten a boisterous one! Yay parenting is real fun. I'll report back the results in a few years.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:25 AM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:25 AM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
My wife and I have a blended family -- no kids together, but 3 from previous relationships, none have the same two parents. I remember my wife getting absolutely yelled at on the phone by her ex, because we let the boy, who was about 11 or 12 at the time, ride his bike over to the next state. Well, that's all the ex heard -- what was actually happening was the boy was riding his bike along the bike paths behind our house, three blocks to a bike bridge which crossed the river, which was also a state border, to go to the basketball courts in the park on the other side. No streets crossed, beautiful summer day, we'd been there with him before and we knew that's where he was going, why can't a kid go ride a bike and shoot some hoops? Even with the explanation, the ultimate thing was that the kid was unsupervised and being a whole state away was beyond the pale.
On the other hand: although both of our exes were pieces of work and have done some documented emotional harm, both of the youngest kids had the longest leashes and were encouraged outside the box thinking and trying-and-failing-and-succeeding behavior...but they talk to us the least, and have done the least with themselves. Maybe that's a success in terms of "teaching kids how to make their own way so they don't need you," but it's kind of tough.
Last thing: At the end of our driveway is a low spot where it gets muddy, and a kid from a couple houses down -- it started when he was about 4 -- used to come over and play in it with trucks and tools and stuff, and I get the feeling his mom didn't want him down there, but I'm fine with it. Kids need to do things just at the edge of "mom can save me" reach -- not completely out of sight, but out of the immediate correction range. He's like 6 or 7 now and just plays with scooters* and bikes and stuff and I hope his range has expanded in the same way. None of my immediate neighbors have kids, but I like it when mysterious toys appear in my yard -- an abandoned squirt gun, Nerf darts, or just a bunch of bike tracks in my grass -- because it proves wrong all the "why don't kids play outside any more" garbage. I just leave the toys where they lie, someone will come and get them eventually.
*they have a little electric scooter that looks like half-scale Vespa and that thing cruises, like I don't think I could outrun it, and the young kids are constantly cruising around on it. I want one.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:34 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
On the other hand: although both of our exes were pieces of work and have done some documented emotional harm, both of the youngest kids had the longest leashes and were encouraged outside the box thinking and trying-and-failing-and-succeeding behavior...but they talk to us the least, and have done the least with themselves. Maybe that's a success in terms of "teaching kids how to make their own way so they don't need you," but it's kind of tough.
Last thing: At the end of our driveway is a low spot where it gets muddy, and a kid from a couple houses down -- it started when he was about 4 -- used to come over and play in it with trucks and tools and stuff, and I get the feeling his mom didn't want him down there, but I'm fine with it. Kids need to do things just at the edge of "mom can save me" reach -- not completely out of sight, but out of the immediate correction range. He's like 6 or 7 now and just plays with scooters* and bikes and stuff and I hope his range has expanded in the same way. None of my immediate neighbors have kids, but I like it when mysterious toys appear in my yard -- an abandoned squirt gun, Nerf darts, or just a bunch of bike tracks in my grass -- because it proves wrong all the "why don't kids play outside any more" garbage. I just leave the toys where they lie, someone will come and get them eventually.
*they have a little electric scooter that looks like half-scale Vespa and that thing cruises, like I don't think I could outrun it, and the young kids are constantly cruising around on it. I want one.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:34 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
*they have a little electric scooter that looks like half-scale Vespa and that thing cruises, like I don't think I could outrun it, and the young kids are constantly cruising around on it. I want one.
There is a young teacher at my kid's elementary school that drives one of those to school every day. She lives in the neighborhood. She generally brought her kindergartener on it last year too, but this that kid rides her bike or walks or something.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:20 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
There is a young teacher at my kid's elementary school that drives one of those to school every day. She lives in the neighborhood. She generally brought her kindergartener on it last year too, but this that kid rides her bike or walks or something.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:20 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm a parent of a teen. It has been a learning experience, to put it mildly, to back off and accept my kid making a huge mess, doing poorly in school, spending too much time on her phone, not wanting to do her chores. At times I felt far to strict because it didn't feel like it was getting across to them that there are times for play and times for cleaning up and studying. I wasn't sure if they were doing poorly in school because I was too lax, I put the blame squarely on myself (single parent), so I swung too hard in the other direction, sometimes, and was a helicopter. In hindsight it is so easy to judge myself as too much or too little of a parent, but during those years it was very confusing. One thing I know is that my upbringing by parents who loved me but were not much involved in my life was quite neglectful. They had no interest in my school work other than to pat me on the back once in a while. No guidance, in this example, didn't make me independent, it made me feel isolated and uncared for. I felt like I wasn't important enough to get help. So, maybe the uptick in helicoputer parenting, as view from outsiders, is a product of not getting much needed guidance from our own parents and trying to correct that mistake by giving too much guidance?
posted by waving at 8:54 AM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by waving at 8:54 AM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't want to be flip about my toddler twin no cameras comment. That's a really contained area. I'm deeply sympathetic to the bullying comments. My generally amazing parents left me alone with an older violent sibling (we've moved past/come to grips and are close as adults), and they've never been able to discuss it with me.
It's a hard balance of giving adventurous space and not letting your kids abuse each other or get abused by neighborhood kids. I guess I'm on the adventure of finding out how.
posted by atomicstone at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2023
It's a hard balance of giving adventurous space and not letting your kids abuse each other or get abused by neighborhood kids. I guess I'm on the adventure of finding out how.
posted by atomicstone at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2023
On one hand: "I wish I had the sort of parents who lingered around and gave me delicious snacks when I got home from school instead letting me forage the cheese rinds in the dairy drawer solo and then sulk around the neighborhoo/watch MTV until they got home form work."
On the other hand: "I absolutely traveled out of state to see amazing bands in junior high/high school and no one was the wiser because my parents were fine with "I'm staying at Carolines or whatever" and there were not cell phones and it was 1992 and maybe that determined the entire course of my adult life for better of worse?"
On the other, other hand "If I'd had helicopter parents, might I have lived out ouf my wildest dreams of academic/ literary success?"
On the other, other, other hand: "Would that not have been predicated on having helicopter parents who were also rich, well-connected, and specifically well-connected in,like, the tri-state area and not, say, Appalachia?"
In conclusion : Fortunately for me, I do not have to work any of this out in any meaningful way because I do not have kids.
posted by thivaia at 8:43 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the other hand: "I absolutely traveled out of state to see amazing bands in junior high/high school and no one was the wiser because my parents were fine with "I'm staying at Carolines or whatever" and there were not cell phones and it was 1992 and maybe that determined the entire course of my adult life for better of worse?"
On the other, other hand "If I'd had helicopter parents, might I have lived out ouf my wildest dreams of academic/ literary success?"
On the other, other, other hand: "Would that not have been predicated on having helicopter parents who were also rich, well-connected, and specifically well-connected in,like, the tri-state area and not, say, Appalachia?"
In conclusion : Fortunately for me, I do not have to work any of this out in any meaningful way because I do not have kids.
posted by thivaia at 8:43 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
In conclusion : Fortunately for me, I do not have to work any of this out in any meaningful way because I do not have kids.
On the other, other, other, other hand: throw 2 kids into the mix, and what works for one will not work for the other in exactly the same way because they are different people. So it cannot ever be worked out. You can only do something and hope it's the correct thing at the correct time for that particular child.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:43 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the other, other, other, other hand: throw 2 kids into the mix, and what works for one will not work for the other in exactly the same way because they are different people. So it cannot ever be worked out. You can only do something and hope it's the correct thing at the correct time for that particular child.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:43 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
My parents were "helicopter" parents by 80s standards, in the sense that they restricted my media and movements like, at all. I was an anxious kid anyway so I hardly ever broke the rules -- I'd feel guilty and confess when we watched Terminator at a sleepover. So many of my childhood memories revolve around trying to sneak something forbidden on TV (like Depeche Mode videos!) or from the fridge (THE DEVIL SODA).
Meanwhile I had zero social or emotional skills and had to learn about basically everything from what I could piece together from TV shows and commercials, while being relentlessly bullied every day in school. Which I couldn't tell them about because even at 6 or 7 I realized they were too poor, stressed, fragile, and defensive to hear something like that and not be like OH SO NOW WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS TOO HUH? THAT'S JUST GREAT.
They meant well, I think. They just had absolutely no idea what they were doing lol. They wanted to get their kids into college without any pregnancies or deaths and they succeeded at that much. Beyond that, I kind of guess they probably dared not hope.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:49 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile I had zero social or emotional skills and had to learn about basically everything from what I could piece together from TV shows and commercials, while being relentlessly bullied every day in school. Which I couldn't tell them about because even at 6 or 7 I realized they were too poor, stressed, fragile, and defensive to hear something like that and not be like OH SO NOW WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS TOO HUH? THAT'S JUST GREAT.
They meant well, I think. They just had absolutely no idea what they were doing lol. They wanted to get their kids into college without any pregnancies or deaths and they succeeded at that much. Beyond that, I kind of guess they probably dared not hope.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:49 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
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